Where Have All Of The Women Leaders Gone with Jane Lovas

According to our guest Jane Lovaz, the challenges faced by leaders today have a level of complexity and magnitude that is unprecedented. Supporting and advancing women leaders is critical for organizations who want to continue to grow, expand, and innovate. Organizations that have at least 30% of women leaders in senior leadership positions are more financially successful innovative, and have higher levels of employee engagement. So we're going to delve right into exactly what it takes for women leaders to expand, the impact expanding your leadership position will have on both your personal and professional life, and then what both men and women can do to reap the rewards of women in leadership. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse experts each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love that will allow you to create the riches in your work and life you deserve. So let's do this. Welcome, Jane. I'm so glad you're here. How are you?

I am great, Bernadette. It is great to be here with you.

Thank you. And where are you, by the way?

I'm outside of Washington, D.C., in our crazy winter that we haven't even had this year.

Oh, you haven't had a winter?

It snowed one time.

Barely.

It was just enough to cover the grass and the trees. I saw it because I was walking the dog at like 6:30 in the morning and it was just— the sun was— so it was beautiful, right? By noon it was almost all gone. That's our one snowfall this year.

Well, there's a lot of people around the world that is wishing the same. Yes, yes, that is wishing the same. So before we dive into all the conversation about where have all the women gone, tell us a little bit about you outside of the workplace.

Okay. Well, right now I am— I am doing, you know, this midlife change. And one of the things that I've taken on is I went back to skiing after 10 years of not skiing.

Wow.

It was— and it's like, I got, I got up the first day I went back, it was the perfect ski day. So if you're a skier, you know, the sun's shining, it's cold, it's crisp, but the air is dry. And I'm up at the top of the hill and I can see everything and it's just so beautiful. And I went, why did it take me this long to come back, right? And that's one of the things that I'm committed to doing, is doing some of these things that I've just— you know, we get, we get busy.

Yes, yes, yes. And we get consumed with our work, which is a great segue into because I'd be curious. You do a great deal of work around the subject that we're, we're talking about, which is where have all the women leaders gone? And one, what drew you to that? But two, is it because many women just like you are at a point in their, in their life and career where they're like, I need to, I need more, I need more? So, uh, where, where first did you kind of work your way in to this area of focus.

Right. And I wish it was just a— they've all gone someplace else.

Right, right.

So it started— my background's in technology and I started out as a software developer and then a project manager and into leadership. And I was very often the only technical woman at the table. And yeah, I mean, that's— this is a common story that women in just— and it's really, it's not just tech technology, it's highly pervasive in technology, but it's also financial and sure, industry, the medical industry, getting— get into leadership and with their— there's a lack of women. I've been doing so, so— and I didn't know when I was coming up through the ranks, as it were, and the way I chose my career to be, I didn't really know that I had any choice. It just kind of— things just happened to me. I said yes to opportunities, but I was never— there was never a plan.

So, so you didn't, you didn't know there was a choice for what paths you could take, or you didn't know there was a choice to all the kind of, you know, opportunities out there? What did you know?

Both. I didn't, I didn't realize that I could actually direct it, that there— that, and that I could share it and that it didn't have to be just happenstance.

Right, right.

You know, that you just— you, you get a job. And at the time, my husband was active duty military, so we were moving around a lot. And so I just— I lucked out. And being in technology was really great for that because I was always able to get a job.

Sure, sure.

But I never did it with any thought like, how could I, how could I take what I learned and then move up a level? Because I was always, I was happy to get a job, so I would take that, that job at the same level, and they were happy to take me. And, and it wasn't until later that I started researching and looking at, at how come we don't see women in leadership, right? And found out that there are a whole lot of reasons. There's— it's not just one reason.

Sure, sure. Now let me ask you something, though, to that point. Do you find that even today that women are still kind of going out kind of without a plan, without a, you know, without an agenda, so to speak, and they're not even proactively, you know, strategizing on how they, from their 20s to the 30s, advance in their career, right?

Oh, yes. In fact, I had a conversation with a woman yesterday who is a career coach and counselor. And because we were talking about this same issue and she said she's surprised with the number of women that just stay in a job because they feel loyalty.

To whom?

To the company. And they're probably about 35 to 50% underpaid. Right.

But what does that say to you about those women?

What it's— what it says to me is women don't know that they can ask. You can, you can ask and negotiate. You can take— if a company does not promote you, you know, because the other thing, and I've seen this in my life, is, oh, you're doing such a good job, we can't afford to lose you and we can't afford to promote you and we're not going to pay you anymore. And there were times I stayed because, you know, I just—

right.

And part of it's a lack of self-confidence.

And that's what I wanted to get to. That's what I wanted to get to.

And part of it is we're just— we're socialized that way. Don't make waves. Do your job. Do what you're supposed to do. You know, Little girls are taught this in school. Be quiet and do your homework. And the boys are, you know, jumping all around on the desks. And so the teachers, you know, I totally get it because I have a daughter that's a teacher, that if somebody is being quiet, it's really, you know, it's like you have to remember to pay them attention because the ones that are making noise get the attention.

Squeaky wheel gets the oil. Yeah, squeaky wheel gets the oil. So you had mentioned that, uh, one of the, one of the reasons, um, is due to the fact that they just don't know that they have options. But you said there's a lot of different reasons. So what are some of the other reasons that women are just not getting the path laid out for them, uh, the way that they really should? And we need them to so they take advantage of that 30% of, you know, increased profitability and innovation and employee engagement you talk about, right?

One of it is, and, and part of it's women's responsibility. It's, and the other part is it's men's opportunity and responsibility. We know that generally we like to work with people that look like us. And there have been studies done all over the place. In fact, a company called IDEO who does innovation work, right, said recently that they realized that they have been even in when they bring people in to do testing and ideation for, for new products, they tend to bring in a lot of people that are very homogeneous. And they're even wondering what have they missed now by not having the diversity.

Absolutely.

Yeah. So, so knowing that, that we— it's easier for us to hire people and look for people that look like us, talk like us, came from, you know, a background like us. It's really being willing to step outside of that right now.

Have you seen— to that point of stepping outside of that, have you seen a change in attitude and perceptions of younger men and women than the older baby boomer, you know, you know, stereotypical white hair, gray hair individuals? Where, where, you know, their generation was still, you know, kind of not fully supportive of women? Has it changed?

I would love to say yes, it has changed. And I am not— I have not seen that. For one thing, because you would think, okay, where it would change would be in startups.

Mm-hmm. Yes, yes.

And women get way less the startup funding, and they're typically not on the leadership or the boards of other startups. So they're not being invent— invited by the men who are starting up and getting the money to join them. And a group of women as a startup have less chance to get the funding. So even for everything that we're doing, there's still that— it starts out imbalanced.

Right, right. So you had mentioned that— you had mentioned that both men and women, they need to see the opportunity.. And you talk about how putting women leaders in senior leadership positions will elevate your profitability, innovation, engage employee engagement by 30%, if not more. So what is it now that we've talked about kind of the, the negative, the negative, but the struggle that you're having? What is What is the reason? What do women bring to the table that everyone should be aware of, including the women themselves need to be, be aware of, that, that'll provide all that return on investment when you do put women in key roles? What is it about women?

Well, and I think it's less about what— if women bring something that's so unique, is that Instead, it's all the diversity. It just, it opens up all the diversity. So women, women grew up having different experiences in their, if they're married, in their marriage, they have different experiences. When they, when they play sports, they have different experiences. So they have different experiences to bring to the table. So when you're talking about innovation, what you want is to really be innovative. You want as much diversity in thought and idea. 'Cause if everybody's thinking the same thing and you're having, if you're having a really easy conversation on a new innovative process or product for your organization, And everybody's going, yeah, that's really a good idea. You don't have enough diversity.

Right, right, right, right. So, so, 'cause that makes me recount a study that I'd read decades ago about the automobile industry when it came to the, what are they? The mommy, the mommy mobiles, the—

Oh, the vans. The vans. Yes, the mom mobiles.

The mom mobiles. And they— and I remember this so distinctly that, you know, girls even and women would get in and there would be some features and functions missing, you know, or inconvenient. And it would be like, why?

And it's—

and it turns out that it was all men that were— that were designing. And I always used to say it about the sneaker, um, the sneaker industry, because the sneakers for decades were the ugliest things with the worst color color combinations, right? And, you know, and it turned out that it was because men were designing them and innovating them and creating them and not getting the input from women. So I don't, I don't recall the automobile company that did it, but started having focus group with women, and that's when the whole design of, uh, mom mobiles— I can't think of the word— um, was changed. So anyway, So, so yes, women have different experiences, but what does that look like? I mean, what does that exactly mean that women have different experiences?

Well, part of, part of what that looks like is women have the ability, and, and part of this is what tends to make women good mothers is they have a higher ability to multitask. And we still— and we know that multitasking is not real effective. And women have a higher— not a, not a big huge ability to multitask. And they have the ability to see a wider view. Because they've got to be able to see all those kids running around and pay attention to all of those. And, and so, and then to react to those. So when you bring that into an organization, they've got the opportunity to really see what's going on, be able to see opportunities that are a little bit further, further out of range. You know, men are really great at seeing what's right in front of them.

Right.

And going for it. And that's really great as long as that's what there is. But right now, I mean, we know for the last 4 years and it's not going to stop. You know, when, when, when we, we got stuck with the pandemic, companies, so many companies, almost every industry had to pivot some way and they had to do it quickly.

Right, right.

And that's one of the places that women have an ability to go, oh, let's, you know, let's do this, because again, that's part of being a mom and, and part of a family, right?

Right.

Being in community, right?

Right. Well, I, I can also distinctly remember, and it stays with me on a daily basis, my father, but when he passed, was home in hospice. Uh, I have 11 brothers and sisters, so there's 6 boys and 6 girls. And at the very last moments, and you know, of his life, and there were things that had to be done, you know, um, and I just remember it so distinctly, and it just, you know, it just gave me such clarity about the difference between men and women, is, you know, as it was happening and as he was passing and we were all there, you know, the men kind of went to the wall so to speak, you know, just in total complete like emotion and, and, you know, and almost like just silence. Whereas the women just jumped right in and, you know, we made the phone calls that had to be made and we took care of my dad. And, and it was just such a contrast. Um, I think those are attributes of women too. That also complement men, you know, because it's not a he/she, it's no, how do we partner together to make sure everyone, like in that room with my father, everyone was taken care of. Uh, would you agree with that?

Oh, absolutely. And, and organizations need, need that diversity too. That's, that's the thing. It's, it's not like We're saying to an organization, to a CEO, to a lead, you, you want to include more women, you want diversity overall, because, because it would be really nice if you did that. We're saying if you do that, your company is going to be more successful.

Right. And there's no proof, right?

Yes.

Yeah. So what do you think? What do you think are some solutions? What are some, you know, things that people could be doing for a couple of the things that I wanted to make sure I talked to you about? One, what can women do to expand and take responsibility like you said earlier? Mm-hmm. And then how can men support that? But even how can women engage with men to get that support?

Yes. And so, so for women, and I want to say to every woman that's listening, what— that wants to be a leader, even if they've never thought about being a leader, you're always a leader. So, and two of the attributes that we see consistently that support powerful leaders is authenticity. And authenticity does not mean spilling your guts about everything in your life.

It's so true. It's so true.

But it is about being authentic about what's going on, right? Things are not working. They're not working, right? If they are working, they are working. And deal with, with that. So authenticity is one of the key points that women really bring to an organization. And that we also need to own it. That's the other thing. And community and communication. Because there isn't a company, there isn't, there isn't a company out there that is doing things as a bunch of individuals. Who can? Who can?

Who can?

Everything is done in community with teams and people working together.

Right.

And if you're a part of a team or a leader of a team as a woman, being authentic with your team actually enrolls them in supporting you even more, right?

All right, so let's— Jane, let's delve into authenticity in that you made a comment about the fact that it's not— it doesn't mean that you have to spill your guts. But some women out there are thinking, well, I'm authentic when I go to work. And I would have told you that for 20 years, that I was But I was wearing the biggest mask and being anything but who I truly am. So what does it truly, truly mean to be authentic?

One, it's no— it's really knowing yourself and knowing— and what's, you know, we're not talking about bashing and putting yourselves down, but knowing that These are your weaknesses. And on the other hand, knowing that these are your strengths.

Absolutely.

Because we oftentimes let our weaknesses hide our strengths because we don't want to come across as too much.

Right. Well, don't you also find that especially in today's world of social media, that women don't even see their strengths because they have so much of the weaknesses always being thrown in their face.

Yes. Or, or they're trying to make themselves be something because they see that on social media that this is, this is what everybody's doing. So now I'm going to do this.

Right.

And it's not being who you are. And it, it really, for yourself, is an unrelentless honesty at looking at— and how did, how did I start to believe that I'm not good enough? Right. You can probably remember some teacher in grade school telling you Don't— you're talking too much, you know, something. And we took that to mean, oh, I'm not good enough, so don't talk too much. So then now you don't even remember that consciously, but it's there. So you go into a meeting, and if you say one thing, then you don't say anything else because, oh, I don't want to talk too much. And I know all this and I deal with this on a regular basis. And I was on a Zoom meeting last night with about 5 other, you know, there were 5 other people on there and I said what I need. And I could find myself going, ooh, don't talk too much. And I'm like, oh, let's put that over here. 'Cause I had things to say in that meeting. And it's like, That was what that meeting was for, was to get these things, you know, we're creating something. So everybody's got to speak. But, and, and so listen to what that voice in your head is saying before you shut it off. You know, don't say that.

Boo! Right. Oh, I love that. So intentionally listen to yourself.

Yes.

I love that. I love that.

Because that's becoming— that's not even yourself anymore. That's just an automatic voice that goes in your head. You know, don't say that. Don't say that. Don't step out. Don't do that. Don't go there. Oh, sit back. You know, oh, don't smile too much. Don't be too happy. Don't be too sad. Don't— it's so true.

What are— if we could ever take a look inside our brains, inside our—

exactly, it'd be chaos.

It'd be absolute chaos.

So every time you see that, take it out and go, oh, I'll put you over here, I'll pick you back up later, right, if I need you.

Right, exactly. And you talk also, um, and you have an upcoming book.

Yes.

And you talk about love, how love you know, bringing love into the workplace, which, you know, I can see so many people's hair, you know, go up, you know, and, and the men are running for the door.

But I would have too.

For many, many years, I would have been like, what are you talking about? Um, but, you know, how does that play out and why is that so important? Oh, it—

I— to me, it's, it's the critical piece. And I'm gonna really I, and I say this as a, as always, the, the first, after I say the name of the book, which the name of the book is Leading with Love, and I say we are talking about love as a power, not an emotion. And, and the critical definition of this is when you're more committed to someone else's success than your own. And the result is you are even more successful because whatever you put out comes back tenfold. And I, I want to say the other caveat that I've heard is Yeah, but that means that I got to keep all my employees. I can't ever, ever let one go or anything. And I have a colleague that I do some work with, and she is on a fast track to really expand her business. And she had her, her project manager, her her like manager. She's at the point where her next in command is, is like a manager level. So it was the, the practice manager. And they've been, been having some challenges for, for a while. Things were just not getting done. And, and I shared this concept of leading with love. And she's like, oh, I don't know. I said, no, because she was the same thing. Well, then I— that means I can't— said no, You want her success more than you want your success. So she had a really authentic conversation with this person about where— sharing where she's taken the company, where this person fits in. And this person said, I know this is not for me. I So they talked about it. She's— my client supported this woman in looking, you know, gave her time to look for a new job. The woman is helping her new practice manager, found a great job, and waited a month to take the job, got permission to wait a month. To be there and support. So that's, that's what leading with love does, because she was more committed to her practice manager being supported and being successful, and she was not going to be successful in this job.

Right, right, right. And she was upfront about it because of that authentic, genuine conversation. Uh, and they both will benefit.

Yes. And so they're both in communication, they're still having conversations because it didn't go well. Okay, you just can't do this, so I'm giving you 2 weeks notice.

Right, right, right, right. I love that. What I love— I mean, that was the bomb right there. Is power— love is power. And you know, you— and it's all about you wanting someone else, genuinely wanting someone else to be successful even before yourself. Because you take care of others, you'll be taken care of. Love it, love it. Now I want you to, in, uh, in the— our last minute together, you have a, a PDF, a book, an ebook called Put Your Big Girl Panties On, and there's a couple of other words behind it, but that people can email you at jlovis at loveisconsulting.com. But share with us what that is all about.

It's a fun, easy read book that when I was dealing with some of these issues myself, you know, one of them is in there and it's— it's— so they're little illustrations with sayings. And when people look at it, they go, oh yeah, I've experienced this before. So it's a really fun, lighthearted way to look at, you know, those, those fears that we all have, that we're a fraud, that I'm not important, nobody cares, it's not safe. All of those fears that, that, you know, some of us have this one and some of us have that other one. They're all basically the same thing.

Right, right, right. They are.

And, and I'll also tell you, Once you start sharing those, and that's part of that being authentic, they just, they begin to disappear.

Now when you say that though, when you actually literally start acknowledging them and even sharing your own experiences and your own, you know, story, so to help others recognize that they're not alone, is that what you mean?

Well, and even in in conversations with somebody that you want to work with. Right now, you don't just blurt it out, right?

Right, right, right.

But you can say, oh, I was really nervous to call you.

Sure.

You know, I was afraid you would say no, or, you know, I have this story that I'm not important, so I didn't think you were going to want to talk to me. And the amazing thing is The amount of— the number of times you get, oh, I have that too. No, it's true.

Well, people just want to relate to one another. Yes, they just want to know that other people have the same stuff going on that they do, and we all have the same stuff going on. Yeah, that's awesome. I love it. Thank you so much, Jane. This has been absolutely fantastic.

Oh, thank you, Bernadette.

Yeah, I've absolutely loved it. So everyone, you can go to lovisconsulting.com, learn all about Jane and the work that she's doing. And also email her if you want a copy of her illustrated book, Put Your Big Girl Panties On. You can do that at jlovis@lovisconsulting.com. Thank you, Jane, and we will talk soon.

Thank you, Bernadette.

Wow, wasn't that conversation with Jane awesome? I mean, come on, where have all the women leaders gone? We have got to change this. Absolutely. Especially when you Look at what she talks about in that organizations elevate their profitability, their innovation, and their employee engagement by 30% or more when women are put in senior leadership roles. So if you like math, you can't deny the absolute value to ensuring that both you and your organization recognize what you could be contributing to their business. But a few of the takeaways that I walked away with— I'm curious as to what yours are, but mine are the fact that you are always a leader. That's what Jane really wanted to get across, is, you know, you don't have to be in a certain position at a certain level. You don't even have to have people that report to you to be a leader. You're always a leader. And then she did talk about two attributions of a powerful leader, and she went deep into both authenticity and communication slash community. So take a listen for that as well. And then lastly, which I thought, oh my gosh, she saved the best for last, it was awesome. She talks about how love equals power. So a lot of people get, you know, kind of woo-woo thinking, okay, we're going to be talking about the emotion of love when actually love is power. And what that really emphasizes is true authenticity comes when you are more concerned about the success of the people around you than you are of yourself, and you ensure that you are bringing your full self to helping them be successful, and in turn you become successful. All right, you put what you get, you get what you put out. Uh, so I just absolutely loved that. And of course, you know, be sure to check out, um, this episode and all of our episodes at sheddingthecorporatebitch.com. But should you be struggling with how you need to really take responsibility for your career path, really have an understanding whether you're 20, 40, or 60, an understanding of strategically what you should be doing to advance and become that women leader if you— that's what you choose to do. But if you're struggling in understanding how to do that or how to formulate that type of plan, then be sure to reach out and book a call with me at coachmebernadette.com/discoverycall. Let's talk about it because you are in complete control and you are, as Jane said, totally responsible for where you are in your career and your life path. So don't miss out on the many opportunities that are there for you, but you have to you know, take control of the reins and, uh, lead yourself to where you want to go. All right, I am so grateful that you were here with us for this episode, and be sure, as I mentioned, to go to sheddingthecorporatebitch.com for all of our previous episodes. And I will look forward to having you right back here for another episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Take care.