Why are we still asking women to think like men? w/ Kate Lanz Lanz of Mindbridge
In this Shedding the Bitch Radio episode, host Bernadette Boas interviews Kate Lands, founder and CEO of MindBridge and author of All the Brains in the Business. Lands explains that modern workplaces still demand women to adopt traditionally male ways of thinking, despite fundamental neurobiological differences between male‑ and female‑leaning brains. She outlines how the brain evolved in three stages (reptilian brainstem, limbic system, pre‑frontal cortex) and how the limbic brain triggers a fast "survive" state, while the pre‑frontal cortex enables a slower, creative "thrive" state. The conversation covers concrete neuroscientific findings – about 100 structural and hormonal differences, of which roughly 30 are most relevant for business – and illustrates them with neural‑connectivity diagrams showing male brains favoring front‑to‑back, single‑hemisphere processing, and female brains favoring cross‑hemispheric, iterative processing. Lands argues that ignoring these differences wastes up to 30 % of employee productivity, as many workers spend most of their day in a survive mode. She proposes a practical three‑step implementation: (1) educate leaders about brain‑sex diversity, (2) adopt brain‑friendly work practices (e.g., meetings, coaching), and (3) measure and reward behaviours that promote thriving. Central to her approach is the "4C" model – Connect, Compassion, Curiosity, Control – which guides leaders to create safe, inclusive conversations that engage both limbic and cortical systems. The episode also discusses common obstacles such as KPI and reward structures that favor male‑type performance, and shares real‑world anecdotes (COVID‑lockdown support leading to a multi‑million‑dollar deal, a research institute becoming a diversity magnet). Lands emphasizes that once organizations embed these practices, they see higher productivity, better employee well‑being, and become attractive talent magnets, reducing turnover and fostering sustainable growth.
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Hello and welcome to Shedding the Bitch Radio, where you can discuss, debate, and get advice on how to discover and shed the bitches of fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negative mindsets so you can realize your dreams and life purpose and create and accelerate the riches you want in life. Join us here live every Tuesday at noon Eastern and dialogue with us at 818-572-2910. You can also chat with us at blogtalkradio.com/sheddingthebitch or share your stories on our website at sheddingthebitch.com. Whatever Whatever the bitch is that's holding you back from living your life to the fullest, it's not worth giving up the riches in life that you deserve. So call in now and let Bernadette Boas know what's holding you back.
818-572-2910. Good day, good day, good day everyone, and welcome to another episode of Shedding the Bitch Radio. I am so excited that you're here. We have a great conversation, which is like right up my alley, uh, when it comes to women, when it comes to women in business, when it comes to the dynamic of women, men, and business. So we're gonna have a fascinating, uh, conversation with our guests. Now I can't go without, um, thanking our sponsor of this particular program, which is North Georgia Tax Solutions. Debbie Snelling and her team provide full-service financial services and tax services to small to corporate size clients all around the country, not just in North Georgia, all around the country. So please be sure to check her and her team out at ngtaxsolutions.com and tell her I said hi. All right, tell her I said hi. But today I'm really excited about this conversation, um, with our guest Kate Lands. We're going to be talking about the fact that it's no longer A man's world. So why are we still asking women to think like men? According to Kate, in 2021, it's no longer a man's world. Or is it? You wouldn't know it from our workplaces. Despite spending $8 billion annually on D&I training, which is diversity and inclusion, we're still asking women to think like certain types of men. And we ask women to compete like these men, solve problems like these men, and communicate like these men, even though their brains— women's brains— are fundamentally and structurally different than men's. Now, the worst part is we don't value the difference. We, you know, we're not seeing the value of the difference, and it's, and it's costing us big. It's costing business, you know, economy, our world, our lives, it has a big cost to it. So what are you going to hear today from our guest? Well, she's going to talk about how the brain works and its impact on how people work together in, on, in teams. And actually, you can look at it even extending into your social network, maybe your family network, community network. You're also going to hear how to combine male brain strengths knocking out tasks and a competitive focus with female strengths, which are collaboration, agility, multitasking, and enhanced memory to shore up your business. So you want a combination of both to really shore up your business. We're going to talk about how to manage alpha males, boys clubs, and office politics using neuroscience, and how to get the most out of every brain in times of crisis from the coronavirus pandemic to the uncertain economic times that are ahead of us. All right, so let me formally introduce Kate as we bring on her smiley face. Uh, Kate is the founder and CEO of MindBridge, a UK-based global leadership, leadership company specializing in the power of modern neuroscience and releasing talent Excuse me, Releasing Latent Brain Potential. She is the lead author of All the Brains in the Business: The Engendered Brain in the 21st Century Organization. You can learn a lot more about, about Kate and her work at mindbridge.co.uk. Now, the key message that she has within her book is all around the fact that organizations really squander roughly 30% of employees' productivity and potential because they've instituted male-dominated approaches to business, say leading applied neuroscientists and international corporate coaches, both Kate Lands and her co-author Paul Brown. And in their new book, All the Brains in the Business: The Engendered Brain in the 21st Century Organization, Lands and Brown distill the latest in neuroscience, real-world case studies, and over 8 decades of collective experiences into one timely guide. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. And I want you all to be looking up as we're, we're talking, unless you're driving and listening to us. But when you have an opportunity, I want you to check out this book because it is going to be powerful. And I have to add that whether you're in corporate and you're leading a team or you have your own business, whether it's one person or a lot of, a lot of people, this subject matter is so relevant to all of you. So welcome to the program, Kate.
Thank you very much. Great to be here.
Yeah, I'm so looking forward to this conversation because obviously I have a, you know, a big backstory when it comes to my own corporate experience and this whole women, you know, the voice of women and the power of women in business. But I'm very— so I'm very curious as to What was it that provoked you to even start studying this, but let alone writing a book about it? What was the reason that put you into this kind of movement?
Yeah, no, great, great, great start. And my background is also corporate, and I was one of the very few women in the business at the time. I was in the spirits business working with Diageo. So I had a really big experience of what it's like to be one of the few women in a very male world as I was existing in the corporate sphere. I've been coaching and doing individual and team coaching for 20+ years now. But just after the last financial crisis in 2008, I was working with a really nice guy in one of the big banks in London, and he'd been brought over especially to do a big job there because he had a particular expertise. And the culture he was working in was just frying his brain. He said to me, Kate, you know what, I have to switch myself off in the morning to get through the day here. I switch myself back on when I get home and see my kids' faces. Wow, that's horrendous. You know, what a horrible way to live your life.
Really?
Yeah. And then also, why would you pay that brain that much money and then fry it so that it can't think straight? You know, the return on investment on that guy's brain is terrible, right? So I got really interested in the neuroscience of how do you create the conditions for optimal brain performance. And as I started to really study that— and that is the topic of the book, and it's the topic of my doctoral research— became very clear very quickly that you just cannot ignore brain sex. You can't ignore brain gender difference because it matters. It's not binary by any stretch of the imagination, so it's not like men's brains are like this and women's brains are like that, But the differences are sufficient for businesses if they're really serious about accessing the productivity of all the brains. You've got to know this stuff.
Right.
Right.
But how— so apart from the work that you do and the coaching that you do, how many— what percentage of organizations are even touching on this in such the way that you are from a neuroscience perspective versus a D&I basic D&I perspective?
Yeah, but the answer is, is very few looking at it at this level of detail and nuance. So applied neuroscience is becoming more widely spread, but really thinking about all of the brains, all of the diverse brains, and how brain sex plays into enabling you to really get the best of all those brains is, is just at the beginnings. And the companies, some of the companies I'm working with are starting to wake up and take it very seriously. I honestly think the companies that don't will just not stay current and modern. When you look at the generations coming through and the problems that we have to solve for, the only way forward is to have a, you know, to really enable very diverse brains to work very successfully, very quickly together. So old school cultures where it's a certain type of brain that dominates the way of working, those, those companies will not survive into the, into the 22nd century.
Right, right. Or those individuals won't either.
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I, I can definitely— you're helping me like actually have some trigger points here, uh, going back to my experience with, with my experiences with certain you know, men or type of men. And I hate, you know, I hate that they're stereotypes, but you know, they're all—
yeah, yeah, yeah. You see, brain sex exists on a spectrum, so you can have a very male brain or a very female brain. And that's one of the things that we look at in the book. You can, you can test the sex of your brain and find out. And you know, and so you— it is possible to have— I've got two sons. One of them has a very male brain So on a 1 to 20, where 1 is very male, 20 is very female, my, my eldest son is like a 2 out of 20. He has a very, a very systematizing, very male brain. My youngest son has— is a 12 out of 20 on the Brain Sex Score, which is the same as me. Now, of course, we have other differences. He has a lot more testosterone in his body than I do, right? Um, however, his way of being is, is very— his EQ is very high, right?
Right. I love that. I love that because I'm one of 12. I have 6 brothers and 5 sisters. And but I always used to joke with my dad that I was like his 7th son because I would, I would definitely be that male sex brain.
Yeah, right.
And yet I have many sisters that are, you know, truly, you know, female sex. And I have probably one brother that is definitely on the female side. That is just fascinating, isn't it?
Interesting. Yeah.
Yeah.
And this is why it's so important to know this stuff, because it works at 3 levels. So one is kind of the generic level of what does it take to create the conditions that are going to enable your brain to be in a thrive state where it's got the neurochemistry where it can think well? And I can say more about that in a moment if you like, versus a survive state when it's kind of shut down and not able to do its best thinking.
Right.
The top level. The second level is the kind of generic differences between male and female. And then the third level is the individual differences, just like you say about your brothers and sisters. So you've got a brother with a more female brain, a sister with a more male brain. Like you, I'm quite high test— high T, high testosterone for a woman. But it's very individual. It's very personal. And companies that are starting to think about it at those three levels and create ways of working, ways of running brain-friendly meetings, ways of having brain-friendly conversations so that they're enabling all of the brains to be and thrive and not survive.
Yeah.
Those businesses that will win, those are the businesses that will win.
Right. Well, it's fascinating. All right. So, yes, I absolutely want to learn more. And I know our, our listeners and viewers would want to either. So there's 3 levels of which the first one you said was thrive or survive. So yes, absolutely share with us what, what that would look like.
Yeah, you bet. No, really important. So I'm just going to get to a little very short intro into how the brain evolved. So, and in order to help people kind of get this stuck in their mind, I'll use my hand as a kind of model for this. So the brain evolved in 3 stages. So the brainstem, which is the base of the brain and the top of the the top of the spine, the base of the brain, that we inherited from our reptile ancestors. So that is on all the time, it's doing all the automatic functions in our bodies. Then when the first mammals evolved and there was a relationship between the live young, because reptiles lay eggs, mammals give live birth, the next part of the brain evolved. So that can be your thumb here, you pop that in the middle, that's the limbic brain, the emotional brain. And that has no rational capacity, but it, it, it's emotionally reading the signals from your environment and deciding whether you're safe or not safe. And it's doing that inside 85 milliseconds, so really fast. And it's telling your body how to respond, sending out neurochemistry. And then millions of years later— so that's about 65 million years old, the limbic brain— millions of years later, the prefrontal cortex evolved. That's the bit um, that at the front of the brain that does the clever thinking. And that part of the brain starts to make rational sense of your situation at 250 milliseconds, so 3 times more slowly than your limbic brain has already responded, right? So we are emotional way before we're rational, and our bodies will trigger us into a survive state, which is to protect us far faster than it will trigger a thrive state, um, in which we can think clearly and kind of be in the zone and making really cool creative business decisions.
Yeah.
So we're responding emotionally and we're more likely to respond quickly with survive than with thrive. When the brain is in a thrive state, it has the neurochemistry of learning, dopamine, creativity and trust, oxytocin and serotonin. Then we're thinking well. So it's really important that the brain can feel safe, seen, welcome, connected. Then it can be in thrive. And in order to really create business environments that enable thrive and don't cause survive, um, you have to understand about brain sex difference because there's such a diversity of brains that to treat everybody as if we're all out of the same mold Right. It just doesn't work. And a lot of the environments, cultural environments I work in as a coach, although this is changing and hence the book and all the rest of it, certainly when I was growing up corporately, women in business were expected to be the best men they could be. And boy, is that missing the point, you know? And for a lot of men as well, you know, it's about really including full brain diversity.
Right, right. Yeah, I love that. But yes, we— I definitely want to understand the differences, uh, between female and male, and more so not the ones everyone's going to expect, um, you know, but what have you found? What have your studies and your research and in your book found between the men and the women?
Yeah, well, I, I reckon, and I've been at this for a while now, like, there are about 100 differences between the male and female brain in various ways. And those differences exist in terms of brain structure, the hormones in, in the, in the brain and body, and then in terms of neural connectivity. Now, of those 100 differences, I reckon from a business perspective, about 30 of them are really worth knowing about. But let me just share a couple of real sort of interesting ones that I think are fascinating and very, very helpful. I, I'll hold my book up here so if you can see this, but the— this is neural connectivity. So the brain at the top, the, the blue brain, that is a male brain, and the brain at the bottom, the orange one, is a female. You can see the connectivity in, in the male brain runs very much front to back, each hemisphere. The, the connectivity in the female brain runs very much between hemispheres. So you get a different type of paying attention, so a different way of thinking, a different way of solutioning. So the male brain is more likely to go from input in through the senses to output into coordinated action. The focus might be slightly narrower. Um, the female brain, with that very broad connectivity between the hemispheres, is more likely to pay attention in a broad, more iterative way. So you'll get solutions that tend to emerge in a more iterative way. Now, this might present as, you know, I often hear that, you know, men will say, "I wish she would cut to the chase," you know, just get right to the point. And might get frustrated at the way the female brain is expressing herself.. And the female brain might find that the cutting to the chase is actually missing out some of the nuance, particularly some of the relational emotional nuance.
Yeah.
That actually needs to be considered. So you just get this different way of paying attention from those two very different neural patterns. Yeah. And if you know that those are what's going on, instead of people kind of getting frustrated with each other and just missing. I'm thinking, you know, I wish she'd cut to the chase. Or very, you know, the other thing I hear is, um, women who are presenting their ideas in meetings and they'll feel that their idea kind of gets stolen and reiterated by one of the men in the room. Yep. Um, and sort of put out there in a different way than she would express it. And it kind of feels as if it's like, well, hang on a minute, I thought, you know, that was, that was my idea and I'm not the acknowledgement or inclusion from it, right? I hear that a lot.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, yeah. And, and this is why, you know, this is one of the reasons why. And if that is understood— and I've got clients now, because they understand these neural connectivity differences, they will actually ask each other for what they're— what, what's being observed, what's being felt about a situation, and how it could be solved. So they're actually partnering. And this is what, this is what I want. It's like no, no, no brain is better than another brain, you know, and it's all on a spectrum. So most of us have a mosaic, which is a mix of male and female features in the way that we respond. But if we can really partner with difference, then you get to more potent solutions that are going to be better for your business. And the business case is very clear.
Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. And one of the other things that you had mentioned too is emotional, you know. So the typical response is, oh, you know, this woman's so emotional. And yet it's just, that's, you know, how she's, you know, wired. And, and shouldn't be discounted, you know, as her expressing her passion or her excitement, um, shouldn't be, you know, negatively viewed as, oh my gosh, she's getting so emotional, right?
Absolutely. All of us are emotional before we're rational. Men and women, right?
Right.
Um, and we just need to know that that's the truth. And, and then the way that women might express themselves— I mean, women have far more oxytocin in their brains and bodies. Oxytocin is like the bonding hormone. Okay, the hormone that drives relationship and connectivity, women have more of it than, than men, um, and they are more likely, more, more of the time, than to seek to collaborate and to connect, um, you know, on average. So I certainly don't want to stereotype, it's far more subtle and sophisticated than that. That's really important to always hold in mind.
Yeah.
But the point is, if you know about these brain differences and teams get to really understand them, then you can partner better together. And, you know, if we look at the way science has been partnering globally to solve for the COVID vaccine, you know, these are examples, real-world examples, important examples of how that level of collaboration can really be powerful and make us very fast across the ground in terms of solving big problems, right? And I come across a lot of corporate cultures that just simply do not enable the best of all the brains. They suit a kind of narrow subset of brains better than others, right? It's not that they're deliberately making brains unwelcome, but, but because of the way they do things, the— what they measure, what they reward, the way they run their meetings, what they're doing is kind of causing many of the brains to be, you know, driving with the handbrake on, just simply not being able to to, to flow and be and thrive really easily. And it's such a waste. It's a huge waste of labor.
Yeah, huge waste. Now, would you say, Kate, that— does— is there another layer of, um, challenge, um, especially in 2021 with all the high-visibility discrimination and harassment and accusations of you know, how men are treating women, to the point where, you know, men are even kind of afraid to, you know, engage in any way, shape, or form. Is that adding, you know, even more pressure or more resistance to engage— to, uh, training and, and taking on some of these initiatives that you're proven to be working in, in businesses?
What I'm finding is the neuroscience is really helping businesses to engage in a far more neutral way with some of these really hot potato hot topics, you know, gender discrimination, race discrimination, right, um, um, lack of more global diversity and inclusion in businesses. When you start to look at things through the lens of the neuroscience, it kind of neutralizes and explains a lot of these hot topics and takes some of the political heat out of this, out of, out of the conversation, and enables people to have far more authentic conversations about their differences And just, and you know, I've got one company I work with, and once we've been through some of the program I've been doing with them, one of the very male-brained guys paired up with one of the more female-brained women on the team. And they, and now they go into meetings and it's like, well, right, how are we going to plan this meeting? How would you do this? And how, this is how I'm doing it. So they're actually using the differences Right. To have, have far more detailed conversations about how they're pitching, how they're debriefing, how they're solving for client conflicts, etc. So it's really enabling people to partner together, which is, which is the whole point.
Right, right. And I can imagine that with when you have a team and especially I love when you said pitching. So when you go into a sales meeting, you know, like break up and structure your presentation in a way that leverages Both the man— I love that. Yeah, that could be, that could be totally business transformation.
Yeah.
And, and change. That's fascinating. Now, would you say that, that you've peppered in some of the competitive advantages, but there has to be some really kind of kick— I want to say kick-ass competitive advantages to a business taking this on, apart from what you already said. Is there anything else?
Yeah, big time. So what I found, what I'm finding in the research is that companies who spend an awful lot of money recruiting good people, training good people, seeking to retain them and promote them, they've got, they're losing about 30% on average of the brain power that's already in the building because those brains are spending more of their day in survive and less of their day in thrive. So you've got good brains there. But the way that you're forcing those brains to work and the fact that people don't feel like their face quite fits, they don't feel like their ideas are welcome, they don't feel like what they bring to the party is being valued. So they're in survive more of the time than in thrive. And therefore you're losing that latent brain capacity. You've already spent the money recruiting it. So why not let it dry, you know, let that handbrake off, right?
Big time.
So, so immediately, just with this, you know, a fairly simple level of awareness and some simple changes to the way, um, what gets measured, how it gets measured, how you run your meetings, what you recognize and reward, those can access—
boom—
huge amounts of productivity that's already there. So that's one big win. You know, your productivity can go up pretty quickly if you start to think, think like this and take this seriously, right? Secondly, you're going to create a culture that is very attractive to the, you know, the bright young things, the brightest and the best.
Mm-hmm.
Well, I've seen this one institute I've been working with, it's a scientific institute, and they've been really serious about this for a couple of years, and now they don't have diversity issues of any description. They are just like a diversity magnet.
Right.
People know that they will be welcome, and so they're attracting, you know, they started out and they were attracting a more of a typical type of male. Now they've got all sorts of people part of the Institute because they're just creating this brain welcome place, right, to study and to research. And so it, you know, all of these issues— gender, diversity, ethnicity, sexuality—
they all just take care of themselves Which would be to call out that someone has a D&I program in their business. It should just be a natural, a natural element.
Absolutely. Once when you really get this stuff right, you don't need D&I programs. It just takes care of itself.
Right. Love that. Love that. Now, what do you, what do you say to the leaders that you're reaching out to? Well, first off, who are you reaching out to that has, you know, because we could assume assume it's the HR department, but at— but I'd like to really understand who is it that is receiving this information from you to then, you know, kind of work to disseminate it and to do the training and to do the, you know, the assimilation of it.
Yeah, so, so generally speaking, I'm being invited in by, by leaders of business divisions.
Okay.
Um, so, so, uh, and HR is always part of that conversation. But I'm being invited in directly to talk to, to leaders who, who sit atop of, you know, many teams, right, across, across whole divisions and geographies as well. And, you know, that's great, but that's, you know, as, as it should be. Um, and I'm just, you know, I'm on a mission. As I started to get into the research, it's like, because I didn't set out to write a book, you know, I didn't want to be a best-selling author or anything, but as I got into it, it's like, wow, 'Everybody needs to know this, so how can I tell more people?' Right, right.
Well, I'm envisioning— I'm envisioning wanting to put you— and I'm not a publicist, by the way— but I'm wanting to see you like on massive stages where like it's, you know, every— there's only like one representative from every company, you know, and get them all in one room and share this information, because I think it is so, so powerful.
So yeah, absolutely, that would, that would be my, my dream come true because I just want to accelerate sharing the knowledge. I bet people to take it, find out more, you know, put it into action, um, and, and use it for themselves. You know, it's helped me hugely as a mom, right? It's helped me hugely in my family, friendships, etc. And, you know, and it's absolutely the central way that I work with, with clients now. Yeah, so everybody needs to know it because it's, it's fascinating and it's, it's useful, it's beneficial.
And how much of this, um, and I guess if it's kind of just starting even in the business, um, environment, I can also envision wanting to, to kind of introduce it to into schools early.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I, I, I wish I— there were I could sort of, you know, clone myself and go out into all these different environments. And I, I, I talk, I'm talking to some business schools, so do some talks on MBA programs. So because I think the younger you, you get this awareness available to people, the better.
Absolutely.
I haven't got into the school environment yet because I've just, you know, I've grown up in the corporate sector, so that's the particular pond that I swim in, right? Um, so I've, I've started there. I also think big business has a role, a huge role to play in shaping society.
Sure.
Um, and so I, I do want to, to, um, help share it as quickly as possibly in that environment.
Right, right. That's, that's fascinating, and I will certainly help you.
Thank you.
I will certainly help get your word out. Great. Yes, because it just benefits all of us, just It does. It just benefits all of us. And I'm even, I'm even envisioning a, um, like a public announcement. You know how they did it for bullying for, you know, a long time to address bullying?
Yeah.
Um, but I can see, and I love this, brain sex. That would be really sexy for, for, uh, commercials and for advertising. Um, you know, um, well, let's, let's talk about Um, um, how— once a company even wants to choose to kind of, um, kind of bring this into the organization, how is it, or what are the challenges, uh, that they struggle with in, in having their people kind of adopt it and get buy-in for it, and then even to practice it, apart from some of the success stories you obviously have, but What, what have been some of the challenges that we can overcome right now in making them aware early on?
Yeah, I think, um, because what I find is as soon as people kind of get it, it's like, oh wow, right, that's really useful. Now I know why the way I approach a situation is so different from the way my particular colleague approaches it, right? Um, and I, I get it, and I'm going to try and work differently with that person. I think one of the big blocks that companies have is the, the KPIs, the performance indicator, what gets measured and what gets rewarded, suits a particular type of male brain, generally speaking, better than, than other brains that are broader on the brain sex spectrum. So the way sales get measured, the way time gets allocated tends to focus on a, on a more typically male way of going about delivering the task. And therefore many things that go on in the organization to enable that organization to perform and to function— and I'll tell you a really cool story in a moment about this— don't get seen, don't get valued, don't get measured, don't get rewarded. And those people who are doing all of those things naturally, using their brains in their natural way, start to feel really despondent because they don't feel like they're welcome. They don't, you know, they might be at the party, but they're not being invited to dance, right? So, you know, they feel a bit out in the cold. And there was one during the COVID lockdown, actually, one client of mine, and she just felt it, took it upon herself to connect with all of the people in her immediate environment and slightly beyond as the lockdown started, and just make sure everyone was okay. So she was emotionally tuning in to what would everybody else's realities. And she discovered a couple of people, one young woman in particular, who was living on her own in an apartment in Canary Wharf. She'd come over from Italy, I think. Um, I think she was also, um, a mom, so, you know, single mom. Anyway, she was struggling and my client connected with her, spoke to her every single night for 2 or 3 weeks just to make sure she was okay, found out that there was a colleague in the area, connected her with the colleague so that they could go out walking together at a social distance, obviously. And she basically took care of that young woman's mental health. And that young woman went on to sell a multi, multi-million dollar deal for the business in question. And aced it. Now, my client who I was talking with, nobody knew she'd done that. She will get no recognition or reward for it. And yet her actions, the kind of emotional care she took, has a real value to that business.
Right.
You know, and in another world, and in a world that if that were my business and I were creating the KPIs, the measures that get rewarded, I would say, right, it's— yeah, okay, we've got the sales task here. We've also got the emotional task that enables those people to go and do that great selling.
Yeah.
So of that, let's call it 50 million. Of that 50 million, I'm going to allocate for— I'm gonna— I will know that that woman did that, that work, and, and I'm going to allocate her 5 million of the 50 to go towards her, her, um, her targets because actually what she did was worth something to this business.
Yep.
And so it's starting to see things in a different way, measure things in a different way. The task is not just all about, you know, the hard stuff.
Absolutely love it, love it. I always talk about mindset over skill set, you know. Yeah, you can look at the, you know, qualitative over the quantitative. Yeah, I love that, I love that. Because, you know, with all the conversation about EQ, right? You know, that's great. Um, or EI, uh, that's great. But at the same time, you know, if we're not applying measurements against it and rewarding people for it, then it's, it's for naught.
Absolutely.
The way I see it.
Yeah, absolutely. And you also get good people leaving because they don't feel valued.
Exactly.
And then the brain diversity that you get thinking about the problems becomes narrower and narrower and narrower.
Right.
And if you— if that is— if your business strategy and the culture that you create drives that, you will not have a business that sustains.
Right. I absolutely agree. Absolutely agree. So what would you share with someone, a leader that, that's out there that's listening or watching? What would you tell them are some first initial steps that they could be taking to— apart from buying her book, Okay, I want everyone to make sure you pick up her book and, you know, start studying it yourself. Pass it on or buy some for your entire team. That would be the best thing to do is buy it for all your leaders in your, in your company. But what could you share as far as what are some initial things that someone can do to start instilling this, this neuroscience into their business?
Yeah, absolutely. I think that like the 3 steps that I think are important, first of all, educate yourself, you know, raise your awareness, find out. And the book is obviously one way of doing that. So get interested, get curious, find out about it. Then start to look at your simple work practices. So in the book, I've tried, been trying and testing different ways of doing things like running meetings. Having coaching conversations that are brain-friendly. So, so get serious about putting in place some basic practices and ways of working that will enable all of the brains to feel included. And then that's the second thing. And then thirdly, make, you know, measure it. Start to really focus on you because you get what you focus on. So what is it that your business is focusing on? What is it your business is welcoming? And rewarding? And is that aligned with the kind of culture that you want to create? So those three things are education and awareness, some simple practices. I try and keep it, you know, I came from the executive side of the desk. Yeah. I like things that are really simple, really clear, really practical, and don't take too much time and trouble because everybody's busy. These things have got to work, you know, pretty quickly.
Right.
And then, you know, and then measure it. Not in a huge process-y kind of a way, but just pick out some very simple, you know, how will you know this is working? Figure that out amongst your teams and just keep checking in with it. And brains don't change suddenly, but they're brilliant at adapting. So just by putting very simple practices in place and habituating it and caring about it and noticing it, you will start to notice that your culture starts to shift, right? And then you will start to notice that you're attracting— people start to be in Thrive more of the time, and, and word gets out, and other people become interested in that, right? And, you know, the great thing about this stuff is it's, it's very good for people's individual health and well-being. Absolutely. Good for the business bottom line. It's not just a nice thing to do. It's also your, your productivity will improve. So there's nothing not to like Right, right.
Well, when, when you were talking about thriving and surviving, I mean, just that literally, you were creating a, you know, a lot of energy within me because I'm sitting there going, why wouldn't anyone, business leaders and, you know, employees that show up to work every day, why wouldn't they want to be thriving and being excited and energized and contributing? As opposed to why would they set their company up to just make everybody feel as if they're just, you know, like surviving. And yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And the great thing, so the neurochemistry between survive and thrive is very different. And when we're in survive, like driving with the handbrake on, you know, at the end of the day you're exhausted, you just want to go home. And, you know, we're all working from home at the moment, but you just want to crawl under your duvet and sleep.
It's true.
When you're in thrive that energy is far more sustainable. It keeps replenishing itself, right? You, you can keep going and do more for longer. So it's, you know, it's, it's win-win.
Absolutely, it's a win-win. Absolutely. Um, I'm going to— because, and it wasn't part of the, the questions, but you also said something that I really want you to touch on because it's something I talk about a lot, but I'd love your take on it. You kind of, um, mentioned that you know, when you focus on— you get what you focus on.
Yeah.
Um, and I really want that to hit with people because I think people just look at it like, you know, and hear it, and but yet don't instill it. Can you add some words around that, around what you mean when you say, you know, you get what you focus on?
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And let me use Thrive and Survive. So when you— when we focus on Thrive, when you really care about how is this other person, how are these other people feeling. You know, we're emotional way before we're rational. So if you start to pay attention and take enough time, and it doesn't need to be time-consuming, but if you focus on, when I'm having this conversation with this person, am I enabling them to thrive? Am I creating, am I using the language of thrive? Am I listening so they feel. And I'll share a little model from my research in a moment that helps people with this. And if you focus on thrive so that every conversation you have during your working day, thrive becomes your objective and your desired outcome, people will start to open up and share ideas and, you know, get on with things better, faster. And you will start to notice that productivity goes up and well-being goes up. So if you focus on wanting a thrive environment in your workplace, you'll get it. And you'll start to notice what, what, what are the things that cause survive and what are the things that cause thrive and what, how can you change them as a leader in that organization? And And yeah, that's what I think. Does that answer your question?
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. But you did say you wanted to share a little story.
Yeah, I just, I wanted to share just a very simple model. And I do talk about this in the book with some, because the book is very case study based because it's like, how does this work in the real world? So just like 4 C's. So the brain works bottom up because the limbic brain will always kick off before the thinking brain can, right? So we have to settle the limbic brain down so it feels safe before we can engage the cortex, right? So the 4 Cs are connect, compassion, curiosity, and control. And so connect, so really seek to make sure that people feel connected, they feel included at the beginning of any exchange, any conversation, any meeting, whatever it is. Compassion. We— our brains judge other people before we know they've done it. So non-conscious bias, if you like. We can't help it. What you— that's what the human brain does, right? So because we know that to be true, then it's important that we're actively compassionate. We actively, you know, rationally set aside our judgments of other people. We can't help having them, but we can deliberately put them to one side. Absolutely. So connection and compassion, people feel that and the limbic brain will settle down and go, "Whoo, it's okay, I'm safe, yay!" And then curiosity, the cortex, the clever part of the brain, loves to solution. So if you get really curious, what do all the brains in that meeting think? You might have somebody, one or two people, who are always the ones who are talking, who are always slightly dominant. And one or two other people who say very little, but get curious about what all the brains in that conversation think and ask them.
Love that.
And then control is give everyone time to think, give everyone time to express themselves. Now a female brain, and this is, you know, there are many factors, it's not just about the neural patterning, but some brains will express themselves more succinctly, some brains will take longer, doesn't matter. Let everybody have control of their airtime and space so that they can put their thinking into the conversation. And those 4 C's in that order will really enable you to start getting the best of all the brains in your business.
Love it, love it, love it. And there is nothing more influential than— I had a boss when I was like 24, and I tell this story a lot, but she had 8 of us. We were all female buyers and we all had very different personalities. And Nikki could sit there in her chair on the other side of the desk and adapt her approach, her conversation, her body language, everything. And if leaders could recognize that having that skill, you know, is— and I love this, you know, connect, compassion, curiosity, and control. That's such a simple, like you said, model. Yeah, because that is so powerful. I mean, to this day I remember it. I remember how that, you know, that touched me.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, there we go.
Very cool. Any last thoughts?
Oh, any last thoughts? Um, I would just really encourage people to get like super curious about this stuff. Get reading, get out there and, and start, you know, and live it. Make, make a difference. And I'm always very open to answer any questions people have. So connect on LinkedIn if there's any, you know, anything you want to ask. But please spread the word and get creating Thrive and using brain— understanding brain-sex difference in all its richness. And that will serve you well.
Yes, absolutely. And please reach out and get her book. Buy a bunch, spread it around, you know, and, and allow all of you, even as a team, to really, you know, kind of understand and learn and then start embedding it. It's fabulous. I absolutely love it. Okay, thank you so much.
That's a pleasure.
Yeah, this has been a great conversation. Yes, yes, yes, I'm very, uh, excited about it. And of course, you can go to mindbridge.co.uk to learn more about Kate and and her services and her book. And then just tune in, everyone, for another episode of Shedding the Bitch Radio next Tuesday at noon Eastern time. Thanks everybody. Thanks, Kate.
Thank you for listening to Shedding the Bitch Radio with Bernadette Boas. Join Bernadette every Tuesday at noon Eastern as she helps you shift your bitches to riches. And the dialogue is always going on at sheddingthebitch.com. See you next week.
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