Conversations about Gender and Race with Christina Wegner

My career started in sports. And so, as you can imagine, sports are pretty dominated, male dominated. And then I moved into the plumbing industry of all industries, and then financial services, where you and I met, and now the food service industry. And, you know, I think because I've been in all of those industries, I never felt sorry for myself or was like, oh, my gosh, I'm the only woman at the table. I actually tried to figure out ways that I could use that to my advantage in a positive way and use that to reframe the way people thought of things.

So since you've often been the only woman in a leadership role in these companies and industries that you've worked in, what have you seen in terms of men's mind shift around working women? What has changed over the years and what is maybe a common misconception or battle that you continue you to fight?

I have definitely seen a change. I also have seen a change in myself and how I deal with the situation. So if you know someone, I see someone being mistreated or spoken to in a way that is disrespectful to women, I have the courage now that I maybe didn't have earlier in my career to call people out on it.

And then if you reflect on maybe a specific incident, when you did that, did you feel that the conversation was received well, or was it kind of like you said what you needed to say and the other person just kind.

Of felt the way they needed to.

Feel in separate ways after that?

Yeah, you know, that's a really great question. And I think that I've had both of those. I've had both experiences. Hard to speak up, right? It's. It. It kind of makes your stomach get a little like, you know, like you have butterflies in your tummy or whatever. Like, oh, like, it could go this way or it could go that way. And the person who said, just speak with your heart, and if it comes up, ask it in a very inquisitive way. Right. So I've had situations where it's like, okay, so worst case, I ask a question like, so why did you say that? I'm just curious. Like, don't get defensive and say that, oh, my gosh, what you just said was so rude. But just approach it in a way that's trying to inquire and learn, learn yourself. And people don't tend to get as defensive that way when you approach it that way. I've had a situation where one of my peers has said nearly the exact same thing that I had just said. Moments ago or even a meeting ago, either way. And it was sort of like, that isn't the right, that isn't the right direction, Christina. But then my, my male counterpart says the exact same thing or nearly the same thing. And sure, timing is everything and maybe something changed so it makes more sense now. But I've gotten to the point where I can say, so can you just help me to understand? Because I positioned it the exact same way 2 days ago in a meeting, but when, you know, John Doe presented it today, it's a genius idea. So just help me so that I can either do a better job of positioning it or help me. Maybe it was just timing. So those are the types of things that I've tried to learn through my career is my self awareness, like you've mentioned, but also just making sure that I'm positioning it. Me not getting defensive as the female at the table. But help me to understand how I can get better at positioning or making sure that my voice is heard.

So this is, I think, at the core of productive conversations around difference because how do you check your emotion at the door? So I have a hard time doing that and sometimes I'd rather not engage because I'm boiling mad and engagement means I'm going to tell you off. And that probably won't end up well for either side.

But.

I guess my question is, how have you come to that maturity and sometimes self restraint to enter these conversations with more an inquisitive as opposed to got you mentality? And also, do you ever wonder sometimes if you're then being too subservient and too meek? Because I do struggle with that of like, oh, you know, someone says something that is clearly, I would say, seeped in prejudice. And you know, here I am like, oh, you know, let's explore, tell me. And in the back of my mind I'm like, are you kidding me? Like, he needs to be or she needs to be called out as a racist or something. Where does that come from? And are you always successful? Do you sometimes step away and be like, I can't do it right now?

Yeah, yeah, I think that. So where it has come from is time, right? And practice. I think that we have the opportunity. One thing that I love about the conversations you and I have is that when I'm not always perfect at asking you questions and so, and specifically around race, for example, I'm not perfect at it, but I'm very interested in doing my research, trying to articulate questions that hopefully you or my other friends of color can Help me or my LGBTQ friends can help me answer like, help me better support people that are different from me. Right. So I think that it's that time and efforts that I try to be a student of constantly learning and getting better. I would say that, you know, even five years ago I went through a program called White Men and Allies and it was a life changing experience for me. And it was more than anything an opportunity for me to have some major self awareness checks on where I entered conversations. And I'm not perfect by any means, but I would say that if something deserves to be approached in the moment, I've gotten good about doing some simple mind exercises, which is as simple as me bringing my heartbeat down and my adrenaline down by singing the ABCs Happy Birthday, whatever it is in my head, because I know it, I can do it without any effort and my blood pressure goes down and so then I can think. Because if I can't think that I'm exactly like you and I will just like blah and I don't, it's not as effective if I do that. And the questioning has also been super helpful. That if I can come from a place of help me to understand your point of view on this, that also gives my blood pressure and my adrenaline the ability to go down before I start articulating everything that goes with it.

Yeah, I love them. Those are great practical tips. And so I think what I heard is sort of do the exercise, do the work to de escalate your own emotions, lead with a question, and all of that becomes easier with practice. And I think also just with age too, at a certain point, I feel like I am just too old to be getting all worked up.

Right. But I think that the work that we're trying to do and leading by example, I think that when you are able to professionally come to the table and call someone out and be really respectful about it, I think it gives other people courage to do the same thing.

I couldn't agree more. I love how you said that leading by example. I think an inclusive mindset and the ability to bridge across different differences is a essential leadership competency. Especially today, I don't think we see it enough and I think it's because other people need to see that you can do it and it is super effective. But because you're so good at it and this is your own, you know, it's part of your value system around how you conduct yourself as a leader in your organization. Sometimes I feel like being a leader is only at the top because you might be the only one. And if you don't see other examples of that, how do you just. Do you feel that as a leader you are rewarded in some way for this more mature way of dealing with conflict?

So that's a great question that I don't know that I have the perfect answer for. I think that my not. I think the way that I navigate it is I surround myself with really good people in work, inside of work, and outside of work. And if I'm not getting the support that I need inside of work, then I look to my peer group outside of work so that I can have the conversations that allow me to get better at it. So I surround myself with really strong women that want to lift each other up and not tear each other down. I'm also mindful of managing my expectations. So I think I shared a story with you a couple weeks ago about, you know, we had a situation with an organization that I work with where on the Tuesday in was it July that all social media went black or went dark, and some organizations started putting out perspectives on going dark or going black. And they said that, you know, my concern out of the gates was being authentic and making sure that we could really stand behind what we were saying. And at the end of the day, we ended up saying nothing. We didn't post anything on social media, but we ended up saying nothing. And at the end of the day, I was talking with the leader from that particular organization and he just seemed really defeated about the fact that we weren't able to post anything. And I was able to step back and reflect on the situation and said, you know what, we actually had a huge win today. We actually started a conversation that 12 hours ago we would have never had. So at the end of the day, we have to reflect on those moments and say, okay, that was a win. And even though it seems so small and it actually maybe felt like it was a loss, we have to look at kind of, how do we make this a win? And then I had said to that person, also, we can't stop the conversation. So the door is, even if it's just creaked open, it's open. So now we have to continue the dialogue. And it truly, I know that people are probably sick of hearing this, but any action that you can take to move us forward in a positive way, whether it's gender or race, like anything that we can do to help, especially as white people, we need to do it.

What I respect about you is that you have been leaning into this conversation about race before it was fashionable, let's just say right from like March or when things really started to pop up with George Floyd's death. And one could think, really, what do you have to say? White female, you live in the suburbs, you know what I mean?

Yep.

But it doesn't stop you. Somehow you have this courage to be like, and I have something to say and I'm going to learn and I'm having these conversations and I'm out there and you've been initiating really difficult conversations in your community. So I don't know, I don't know if I have a question. I don't know if I just want to give you the opportunity to kind of explain that courage because I don't know, I come across all the time white people who will say, I'm nervous, I want to, but I don't feel like I have legitimacy.

Yeah. So I kind of. Back to the courage part. That and comfort. Right. I think that it's really easy to be comfortable in white privilege and maybe to not even acknowledge that it exists. Having a number of people in my life that have been impacted and have shared their stories with me also of the things that they go through on a day to day basis that I don't have to go through. While yes, I'm female and there are definitely some things that come along with being female. Right. But I have the privilege of being white. And so I feel that it's my responsibility to work really hard to be. To work through my journey of being an anti racist and to use my privilege to elevate those that don't have it. And so if it's me having a conversation with our suburb police chief or it's having a conversation with our school district to say, hey, what can we do to just start conversation or to get more books into the library, is it, you know, raising money or is it me just self reflecting further on my own anti racist journey? I read the book how to be an Anti Racist by Ibram X Kindi, I think is how you say his name. And it was so eye opening for me to hear him talk about his own journey as an anti racist. And it put it in perspective for me that growing up I thought that you're either a racist or you're not a racist. And I always felt like, okay, but I have these unconscious biases that the media has given me or my just the spaces that I grew up in or whatever the case is. I have these biases and I want to overcome them. But in order for me to overcome them, I have to learn. And I also, I can read and I can listen. And the listening part maybe through podcasts and movies and things of that nature, but more than anything, listening to people that are in the position that I'm not in. And so it's actively doing the work. Let's bring these conversations to the table and just instead of like creating the dialogue and stories in your head, what you think is happening and the narrative, stop and listen. And I think that that has just been a huge thing for me, is going through that. And I just, if I have, I'm one person, obviously, but if I can have just the smallest amount of impact, I want to have that. I think that we just need more than anything right now to offer each other grace and support each other and not tear each other down.

Grace, support and just be better people. I'll take that. Christina, thank you so much. I know you got to go and conquer the world.

Thank you so much.