How to Jump Start a Sustainable Culture of Inclusion

Welcome to Titus Talent Talks. I am sitting here with Beth Ridley, who is a friend, she is an ally, she is somebody is a consultant and somebody who's brought some transformation to Titus business as we have began our journey of diversity, equity and inclusion. And it is a topic that I felt very vulnerable in when I started realizing and looking at some things of our company that I felt confused with, that I felt ignorant of. And it was going into a world that I felt quite unknown. And I needed help. And so, as Beth says, a really wise person, a very smart person, when they realize they need help, they ask. And so I'm putting myself in that category. I'm a very smart and wise person. I reached out to Beth for help and began our journey. And since then, she's worked with our leadership team and helping us on a step by step. So I do want to. The point of today really is as tight as Talent talk. Today is bringing in an expert voice on a topic which is not now having greater awareness. It has been, it's since the beginning of time, this whole topic of difference. People are different, and there are all kinds of things that go into that. And what we've set is our journey is valuing difference. We want to value difference in a greater way than we have before. So, Beth Ridley, tell us a little bit about you, the Brimville life, what it is that you are passionate about and about your journey.

Yeah. Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for having me and the time to chat with you. And I've so much enjoyed our conversations. I learned a lot from our conversations as well. And I think that's part of the whole thing. It's about diversity, is really about dialogue and learning from each other. So, like you said, I have a consulting firm called the Brimful Life, and I call it that because my work is all about helping leaders and professionals live lives that are filled to the brim with joy and meaning. We need more of that in the workplace. We need more of that in the workplace. So out of the many topics that I talk about, diversity and inclusion is one of them. And I would say it's been a popular topic recently this year, just sort of everything that's been going on in terms of racial inequality and social injustice being at the forefront of our minds and coming into the workplace like never before. So a lot of people are sort of like feeling sort of compelled that they have to say or do something. Maybe diversity, inclusion has been something on their minds, but not really have like sparked taking action. So I'm all about that like, I love it when people come to the topic of diversity inclusion. I think when you come to it from thinking that it's a moral imperative, that's a great start. My belief is that it is truly a business imperative. And those leaders and those companies that can tap into the diversity that all companies have and sort of bridge that diversity and harness it as a differentiator for success that's going to make this effort sustainable. Because at the end of the day, businesses are in business to achieve certain goals and, and results. And a diverse and inclusive culture can help you do that. So it's both a moral imperative and a business imperative. And I just try to help people develop an inclusive mindset as a leadership competency. So those leaders who can bridge differences, like I said, really do become better leaders because sadly we're becoming more and more divided and divisions are seeping into the workplace. Right. So race, gender, age are some typical ones. Now it's even politics. How do you manage that in the workplace? Religion, even personality style differences, leadership style differences. You really need that leader who can help harness and bridge that diversity. We see what happens when with leadership that cannot. Diversity turns into dysfunction without the inclusive piece.

Yes. Yeah, it's. I think that's. So we're a fast growing company. Not fast like many technology companies out there growing 1,000% a year, but for a fast growing company. We just made the Inc. 5000 fastest growing company the second year in a row. Which we're proud of those things because we're doing some things right. We have put, we're a very people centric organization. We put our people first. We say that in the way we make our decisions. People first, our partners second, which means our customers and profits third. So we've got some things in the right order. We're not money driven purely, but obviously we're for profit. So we have to make profit to be able to have people. And so there's a lot of things we focus on. We've created a value driven or value based organization. All things that we feel really proud of and, and really secure in that when we look to our left, our right, we've got a whole bunch of people who match our vision and values. However, we just not had any focus with a lens on diversity, equity and inclusion. And so at the beginning of this year, I think it was last year, and then going into this year I was like, I need some help and who do I turn to that can help me navigate and I can speak freely, that I can be vulnerable, that I Can ask questions without fear of retribution or judgment or mockery or just, you know, anything that would go along with that. I wanted to ask somebody who was an expert who could help me navigate my own ignorance. And I've had the privilege, privilege of traveling the world. I think I've been to 40 something countries in the world of my life. And so I've seen lots of backgrounds, cultures, religions, all kinds of diversity. I love the melting pot, but I've just never gone through a lens of I want to build my company very diverse. I just not thought that. And so here we are five years on, and I've got a whole group, a bunch of people who evidently, evidently, because you can go onto LinkedIn and scroll through all of our people, evidently who look very similar in ethnicity and their race and the or just from our observations, a lot of similarity. Then if you talk to our people, you go, wow, they all sound the same. And in many ways it's because of the unity of value. That's what I would have historically said. They value the same things. What do I mean by that? You know, is it valuing characteristics and behaviors or is it valuing things that we've not actually been intentional about? But there's been bias in our hiring. And the other challenge we had was majority of our hires are from internal referrals, People we know, people we have worked with in the past, or people we interact with and discovering that, going, that's great, all these internal referrals, that makes recruiting easy. Those people statistically can hit the ground running faster because they've had an inside track and an inside voice as a mentor and as a coach and the buddy system. But often I discovered in talking with Beth over lunch, as the questions around my personal diverse circles, what does the diversity look like in my own personal circles?

Yeah.

And was that very challenging for me because everything starts from within on a personal level, before we start going corporate or national level, we can't just only pick, fix national problems without fixing and looking at ourselves in the mirror and saying, okay, what does that look like for me?

And you know, it's a little bit of a blessing and a curse, right? So on one hand, looking inward and thinking about how do I develop a more inclusive mindset, One way of doing that is to look inside your own personal social circles and where you have a lack of diversity, that may indicate where you might have some implicit biases and the opportunity to just increase the diversity in your own social circles. So that's the hard part. But the good part is that's free to do. You don't need a consultant or you don't need an initiative to spend money on, like, the real work, the real meaningful work, leading by example and just looking from within. It's free to do. You need a little bit of courage. I also think you need just a little bit of just willing to pause and get out of execution mode and to reflect, think, and being willing to build meaningful relationships with people who are different from you. That's going to sort of increase your perspective. And then from a practical standpoint, you're absolutely right. In terms of recruiting, some of your best candidates are going to come from your existing employees, who should be your biggest ambassadors. And so each employee has a very diverse personal social network. You're gonna naturally also get a lot more diverse people. And so that's why, you know, it's funny, like, I'll work with a lot of, like, predominantly white LED organizations, and they'll be like, it's just really hard to find diverse talent. And I'm like, no, it's not like I know a ton of black people, but, I mean, where are they?

Where are they? Where do we find these people?

They're actually everywhere. But it just becomes easier and a lot more natural. You know what I mean? When you diversify your own personal network, it's so easy. It can be done, but it does take a little intentionality and a little courage, because just like you said, you had questions. You didn't know who to ask. You were really brave to ask me. You actually didn't really know me. We had someone in common. That made it a little bit safer. But I always like to say our worst fears hardly ever materialize. It's very unlikely that someone's gonna completely shoot you down. Like, don't ever speak to me again. Why would you say that? If you're asking out of genuine, you know, curiosity and compassion, I think people can really feel that, and they want to lean in and they. And they want to share about their own personal experience. You are not asking me to speak on behalf of all black people. You said, what do you think everyone likes to talk about themselves. I am happy to tell you what. What that means. And then you get one data point about the African American experience from my personal view. So that's one data point that's not enough, but it's one more than what you had. And if you keep doing that, next thing you know, you round out your perspective, and that's how we all get smarter.

You told me, Jonathan, you cannot outsource this whole thing of diversity, equity, inclusion, you can't. What did you mean by that? Talk about that.

Yeah. And I think, again, like, people are like, well, let me hire a consultant. Let me have a committee. Let me hire a diversity and inclusion expert or a chief diversity officer. And I think all those things are really good to either get things started or to help sustain it. But at the end of the day, leaders, every employee contributes to the culture based on how they show up and setting the tone from the top. So you could have had the most amazing consultants, you could have spent a ton of money. You could have spent all this money on initiatives, and they wouldn't have gone anywhere if people were looking at you and saying, but, Jonathan, what are you doing? Or, Jonathan, how are you learning? Or, Jonathan, how are you helping to bridge across differences? We don't see that. I mean, it's going to be a disconnect, and people see that. So, you know, that's what I meant by you can't outsource it. You cannot expect change if you and your leadership team are not willing to, you know, walk the talk. Talk the walk. Walk the talk.

Yeah.

And show. And again, the nice thing about this work is you don't have to be great at it. You don't have to be an expert.

You.

You can make mistakes, but people need to see that you're trying and that the words that you're saying are matching your efforts.

Yes. Yeah. Well, it was a very, very challenging moment for me when you said that, because I can go into practical mode, I can go into do mode. Okay, what do we need to fix this? How fast can we fix this thing? Okay, who can do this for me? Who can. Like, who do I need to hire to get this thing done as if it is a checkbox, as if it is a.

Some of that is very cultural. I think in the United States, like, we think that, you know, technology and money can pretty much solve all of our problems. This is one of these things where it does really become deeply personal. It's a mindset. It's a lifestyle. And, you know, the nice thing is Your mindset is 100% in your control. The hard thing is sometimes that is the hardest thing to control or to invest. And it's almost the opposite of everything that we've been trained. It's almost like it's. Instead of do, do, do, it's no pause and reflect, examine where I might have blind spots. Really different muscle. It's a really different discipline that we're trying to build.

One other thing we discovered, and we didn't need a consultant for this one, we realized that our entire leadership team was white. We didn't pay you big bucks to figure this one out. So we used our eyes. And I'm laughing now, but it wasn't funny. It was like, what are we going to do about this thing? Well, this isn't something I could fix overnight. It's not something I go, all right, you're off. You're on. Here we go. Great. Statistically, am I good, everyone? Okay, great. Moving on. You know, it's got to change in here. Is it? First of all, is this a heart issue? Do I have something, you know, is there something off here that needs to be adjusted in a deep root issue? Or is it actually, I just need to put a lens on. You need to put these glasses on and actually see differently and think differently about this approach. And that's what it came for me. It wasn't a heart issue. I still don't believe it is. I believe it's actually a lens issue. We've just not put much attention into this and said, this is an important lens.

Yeah.

And so you helped us navigate that. Talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, 100%. And I think people, you know, one of the reasons why they don't want to lean into this work is then they feel guilty. You know, they feel like, oh, my goodness, you know, am I racist? I've been doing this wrong. Like what? Like, we have an amazing team. How can I feel bad? Simultaneously, I have an amazing team, but we all look alike. And it's. In most cases, it has not been an intentional effort to not bring in diverse perspectives. It has not been intentional, but it's been the result of not pausing and just reflecting and thinking, intentionally valuing diversity. Like, how are we better when we're not all the same? And again, having those natural relationships. When a job opening does come, you're not so much thinking like, oh, where do I post where people of color are going to be seeing this post? It's more like, I know Jen and well, she happens to be, you know, a person of color and she knows other great people as well. So I think it's just really, you're right. And I like how you said it's a lens. It's a lens issue. It's just adapt building that muscle memory to always look at everything with a different lens and saying, am I missing a perspective before I jump and I make this decision, should I consult and get in different perspectives? So my decision is going to be better.

Yeah, I think. What's the end game? What's the goal we're trying to achieve? Otherwise it can be very short sighted to try and fix something. Like so we're a business, we're a for profit business and we intend to grow. How do we get there? Oh no. So and so is not doing business with us because of our lack of diversity on our leadership team. If I want to gain business, I need to fix this thing.

Yeah.

And so I stop and go, no, no, I'm not fixing this just to gain business. Although I do appreciate you said, listen, there's a business imperative here, which I agree with, but I can't do a knee jerk reaction, short sighted fix.

Right.

Here's a good example. We have a sizable large client. We said one of the things you're going to need is to put together a culture video. Something that tells the story of who you are from an employee perspective or what is your DNA, what is your culture? They came back to us and said, we've looked at this, we cannot do a culture video. And I said, why not? And they said, there's not enough diversity, like racial diversity in our teams and we don't want to highlight the fact that everybody in our video would be non diverse from that perspective. And I get it. It's kind of like, oh gosh, now we got a brand and a marketing piece so let's just not do anything about it. And so then the next question is, well, what are you gonna do about it? Yeah, what are you gonna do? So you could hire some actors and then do the video. I don't think that's the right idea either. But if you look at any single commercial out there, you've got this perfect makeup of everybody and anybody. You're like, wow, did they actually work there? Do they really work for your company or are they actors, you know, very good looking too, you know, model acting makeup for anything, you know, I get it. So there's an opportunity to do that. That's not a, that's a quick fix for a short term gain. And that's not the right clue, you know, the idea here. So what are we looking at internally and how do we actually make a journey here for to grow to an end game. And I don't know if you know, thoughts on that. I'm kind of leading you in here, but I don't know how you respond to that kind of the quick fix versus long term solutions and long term changing at the heart.

Yeah, totally. I mean like most Things the quick fix really is a band aid and you'll get in the habit of continually quick fixing. And I think the real way to make it sustainable is the approach that you're taking and really being more reflective, building meaningful, diverse relationships. And by the way, thinking about what do you mean by diversity? Like it shouldn't only be gender and race. Right. There's all other dimensions of diversity that you have to be mindful of. And I will also argue most companies, even if they're all white men, are not tapping into and harnessing the diversity in terms of thought, perspective, experience that is even there as a start. Like use what you have to build that more inclusive muscle. But you know, I think again to your point, quick fix, do we want to just present to the world an image of how we wish we were versus actually doing the work and being able to present who you are truly organically. You do have to think of this as a longer term investment, an ongoing investment. And you do have to truly, truly value. Like you really do believe better business, better culture. We with a more diverse and inclusive. Right. Otherwise you aren't going to stick with it. And we had talked earlier, the best analogy I can give it is healthy eating is a lifestyle. You must believe that eating whole foods and fresh foods is better for you in the long run. That makes it easier when you drive past a McDonald's to be like, keep going and not say, yes, let me just get the, the, you know, the Big Mac and then I'll try to work it off later, you know, and it's, it's so that it's never perfect. And you are faced with a lot of conflicting decisions that you may have to make around sort of how you want to present to the rest of the world and where you might really be on the journey. But you'll only stay on the journey if at the end of the day you really do believe that you as an individual and the culture of the organization and then therefore your clients and the community are better. When you are interested in diverse perspectives. You just have to be interested as.

A first step if you're interested in that. And I have to be interested in healthy eating. This is a lot to ask. There's a lot of lifestyle changes here. You're talking about Beth.

It is.

Good. That's good. I think one of the. I have one more question for you and this one's a. I don't know if this was a dinger or not, but one of the things that we've heard our clients, but also Just internally, as we navigate this journey. And the journey just basically is we're going to keep making daily steps, weekly, monthly, annual steps to grow in this area, because we can't do it overnight. But we want to be set our course to grow. And one of the questions that have come up a number of internally and externally is around this topic of if there is an initiative to do this and to grow in this area, does that mean I might get passed up or some people might get passed up on opportunities because somebody else, not due to meritocracy or performance, is going to have an advantage which goes into advantage and privilege and all kinds of things. So can you talk about that?

Yeah. So here I hear this all the time, especially when it comes to hiring and promotion. Like you said, like, you know, sort of the argument will be, well, we should just be hiring the best person, not based on diversity. And I would say that that's a moment to pause and really think about what you're saying, because you're almost saying diversity and the best candidate are somehow mutually exclusive. And I agree, you never want to hire someone just because of the way they look. You're not doing anyone a favor, you're not doing the candidate a favor, you're not doing yourself a favor, you're a client a favor. So, yeah, that should always be avoided. But don't assume because someone is bringing a dimension of diversity that is not currently representing your organization that they would not be the best candidate anyway. And I think a lot of times people mistake comfort for competence. When you feel comfortable around someone because you can relate to them, relate with them, they're like you. They went to the same university as me. They must be smart. They must. I mean, that's actually our implicit bias at play.

Or British, maybe. They're British. They must be smart.

That's right. Just because they've got a nice accent.

There'S definitely some advantage there.

So I think we just, again, that is our implicit bias at play. Somehow in our minds, we are connecting different than us with not as deserving, not as prepared, not as competent. And we're assuming, same as us, we are comfortable with them and they are the best candidates. So I would say check yourself on that. You know, check yourself because, you know, there is no evidence to suggest that the best candidate cannot be a diverse candidate.

Okay. I love it. I love the answer. And not just I love the answer, but it's refreshing and it's helpful. It's instructive. Three words that I would use to describe you. Very helpful. Very refreshing and very instructive. Been really on our journey. You've been a guide and a rich, rich, knowledgeable guide to help us see the sites to value some, value some really, really important areas that we've not seen before and not only just value those, but instruct us on how to actually bring it more to the forefront in our business and see it as a business and a moral imperative. So massive. Massive. Thank you for that, Beth. We excited to have you on our journey and looking forward to seeing your journey as well. As you increase and keep growing and serving companies out there, we hope that there'll be many people who would continue working with you and help you have you navigate for them and with them on their journey. So how can people get hold of you? Beth?

Yeah, the best way you can follow me on LinkedIn, Bethridley on LinkedIn or you can go to my website, thebrimfullife.com and you can find out all the resources and I've got a lot of complimentary resources on diversity, equity, inclusion on my website that you can download as well.

Fantastic. We have upcoming information here on our webinar series and there's a full instructive webinar coming up here with Beth as well, which will be jam packed with resources, tools, information that you can actually put into practice. The very second you hear it, the very second you receive that, you can actually put these things into practice and it will change your own life as an individual, but also resources you can use to actually bring transformation in a positive way to your organization. So massive. Thank you to Beth again, somebody who's been a gift to us and a growing friend. Thank you so much.