How We Stayed Married After Losing a Child

As promised, we are back to share the struggles and the challenges that we've gone through as a married couple and what we've done to overcome it. So let's continue the conversation and I think this is a good time to talk about what I mentioned prior regarding your parents because maybe the communication for hard conversations wasn't there, but there was something that was very much there which was in. Has impacted my life so deeply. You know, your parents, you tell me about your parents.

Well, I think I'll finish that. There was something there. It was called love. And there was an excess of that, you know, where maybe other things lacked, you know, money, vacations, trips, you know, things. There was never a lack of love. So growing up I saw that. I saw that in my parents. I knew it was possible. Right. As much as you heard all of the bad stats with marriages, I knew that not only was it possible to, to, to stay married, but to stay happily married. Right. There's that difference of are you married or are you happily married? Well, I was in a house where the marriage was. Have an extremely happy marriage. Not that it was perfect obviously, but it was a very happy marriage. So, so it's what I saw. And well, like you mentioned, like I expressed the other day in my parents 48th wedding anniversary. And as you know, I journal every morning. I like to start my day writing three things that I'm grateful for and making sure that I never repeat those three things. So something new every day. And this was the day of my parents anniversary, the 13th of May. And I, you know, my journal entry, one of those things that I was grateful for was, was my parents happy marriage. And I went on to state, you know, because that was the foundation for my life, for the lives of my siblings, for the lives of our extended families, our friends. That marriage was the core. That marriage is what it was, is the base of it all. You know, I was lucky enough to be a witness to it, to be a, a part of that, the fruits that came from that marriage. And you know, it's. It's almost like I had the, the cheat code. Right, the cheat sheet. The cheat code. Because I was able to see it every day and. Yeah, when now you're a part of it now you get to see it every day. There are neighbors.

Yes. And your parents taught you that love, which I, I experienced that love in my life too. My parents didn't have that same kind of marriage. They're still married. It's been over 50 years. But I wanted something more like your parents, like you know, at any given moment, you would walk into them in the office of the house dancing or the kitchen. Dancing.

Yeah.

To the. To the radio. I. I wanted that. The hopeless romantic kind of.

Yeah. I remember a sign somewhere in the house. It was the first time I ever saw it. Now, it's. It's more cliche, but back then I had never heard it. And it was the. A husband and wife, best friends for life. And that was. That is my parents. Right. And it's. And, you know, it was, like I said, the. The base for.

And you always say that. What is it that you say about kids? Like, the greatest gift that you can. That. That your parents gave you, that you want to give your kids.

Yes. So, you know, we used to do those marriage retreats. Camino. And we would give the talks. And this was the marriage retreat for those that are going to get married through the Catholic Church. So these. These were retreats for. Or these are retreats for engaged. Engaged couples.

Exactly.

And yes. I always used to tell them, the biggest gift that you can give to your future children is your happy marriage, is you being married. That's the biggest gift that my parents.

They don't have to worry about you.

I never had to worry about my parents staying married, about my parents getting a divorce. That was never an issue in my house. It was. It is the biggest gift that they ever gave to me, to my brothers, to my sister. Yeah.

So a gift that my parents gave me, and your parents gave you too, is the gift of faith in our happy marriage. There were a couple hiccups. The first one was when we became parents. We discovered things about ourselves that we did not know. I shouldn't probably speak for myself because it was mostly me I discovered. And you discovered things about me that you weren't expecting. I turned out to be a psycho mom and a control freak. And I. And I thought nobody could do anything better than me with our kids. And I was, like, really rigid with the routines and the ways that I wanted to raise the mass. And that took a toll in our relationship. It took a toll in many relationships, actually. And it was the hardest times of our marriage. I would say it was hard. I remember the day that you. In that townhouse, in the Doral townhouse, that you sat me in the super comfy couch that you had. You sat me there and pretty much told me, I'm not in love with you anymore. Like, I don't even like being around you. I'd rather just be with Chi Chi and Foffy. We had Two kids, two girls at the time. And when you said that, it was like my heart sank and fears. Betsy showed up inside of me and she was like, screw him. Screw you. There's a whole line of men waiting to be with me, and I don't care because my ego was so bruised. But there's the wise Betsy that was connected to my highest self, the one that has that. It's super tight buddies with the Holy Spirit, and that's the one that had chosen to always be in control. So even though that one showed up uninvited, the one always controlling was the Betsy that's connected to the Holy Spirit. And I remember immediately after having that thought of, like, screw you. Like, how dare you say you're not in love with me? Immediately after I thought, like, okay, what do I need to do to love this guy? Like, to get him to fall back in love with me. And that night was hard. It was painful. That's the day, baby, that I understood love is not proud in my core, because I had a lot of pride. I always say that I'm my mother's daughter. My mom is the most incredible, faithful, wise woman I know. And she has a character. She has character, right? Like, she's a woman. She has opinion. She has character. As do I. You would know. But I've chosen to be tamed. I want to be docile. I want to be more submissive. I want to be different in that sense. In fact, every time my friends tell me, like, you're so submissive, I'm like, well, thank you. I work really hard for that. I know you don't think I'm submissive, but I promise you, I promise you.

I haven't said a word.

Yeah, I promise you, I'm a lot more than you could have gotten access to. But anyway, so that day, you. You said you're not in love with me anymore. And there was something that we knew to be true, and it's that we are together forever. And you. You say that. What is it that you say about marriage, like, about divorce?

I pretend that it's illegal, and I don't want to go to jail.

So you thought it was illegal? I believed in marriage. So I knew I had two choices. I'm either going to live miserably for the rest of my life with you, out of love with me, or I am going to get you to fall back in love with me. And I remember grabbing a little card we had from Camino's, those. Those retreats that we worked, and I. I put what can I do to make you happy? And I put in your wallet, and that's. That was like, my way of, like, like signing the contract, the agreement that I'm. That I am going to commit to doing this work with and for you. And the next day I was like, okay, what can I do today to make him happy? Oh, I'll pick up the house. You know, when you have little kids, picking up the house is like brushing your teeth while eating Oreos. It's just. It's going to go back to messiness. So I would, you know, I would wait for you to be almost home. There was no life360 back then. So I would call you, you're on your way, and I would pick it up. I know you like to come home to, like, a clean house, and I would cook your favorite food. And I would. Every day I was like, what can I do to make him happy? What can I do to make him happy? And then I don't know. Something happened. What happened? I don't know. Did it work?

It worked. Obviously. Here we are. Here we are happy. It. I remember, you know, I. You. You know that my memory at times isn't the best, but for some things, it's really good. And I remember that little paper in my wallet. I remember seeing it in my office and feeling really good about it because it meant that you were willing to work at this. And I knew that I was willing to work at it as well. Right. Because, yes, to me, divorce is illegal, and I don't want to go to jail. So if I'm gonna stay married, I also want to be happily married. I'm a happy guy. I like to be a happy guy. So the fact that you left that note in my wallet that I remember so well, and I remember because of the joy that it brought to me and the, The. The. The relief more than anything, because, yeah, it was a tough time. It was. It was tough, man. Having kids, it's tough. It's tough.

They are born from passion, and then they're passion killers. Does anybody resonate?

Yes. Yes. So it was toug. It was tough. And they don't come with manuals, and there's no manual for the marriage. It's not only that. There's no manuals on how to raise them. There's no manual on. All right, how do we keep this going while raising this creature or creatures?

So it was a process, and it was. It was a season. And we had ups and downs, and we had moments where we were enjoying each other and it worked out. And. And then. But it was a season, right? Like, where we didn't get out of the season for a few years. I remember, you know, and I remember one day, like, I feel like this was the moment that defined the ending to the season. We had a really big one, and I lost it, and I was screaming in the street. Like, I was never. Like, I was psycho with my kids. But I wasn't psycho with you, like, in front of people, right? Was I kind of sort of. No. Okay. But I was psycho this day, and I was like, I was screaming outside. I remember seeing a neighbor. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, I wanted to, like, just. Just go under the earth. And I. We were on our way to a friend's birthday in the. In the gables, and we went there. You went in your car? I went in my car. I was like, I don't want to. I was so upset with you. And when we were in the dinner, you texted me across the table, and you're like, can we. Can you go outside? And we went outside and you said, can we hug it out? And at that point, it was like, we can't agree on some things. We couldn't come to terms. We couldn't see eye to eye. And it was almost like permission to. Okay, then don't. Don't agree. Don't say, agree to disagree. Agree to disagree. Let's just hug it out. Let's let love triumph over disagreement and differences. And that marked me because sometimes you don't get to talk it through because you're not going to get anywhere, you know, or at least you're not going to get to where you want to get to. So just. Just love. Let love triumph. So we're in a really good season after this, and I feel like. Like, I feel like it's been like that ever since. And then 2013 for fee FOFI goes to heaven unexpectedly. We had three children at the time. Chichi Fofi, Gordy. And, you know, this is a story I share in my first episode. So if you want to go back to that, you're welcome to. But that marked us. And most marriages don't make it. They don't. And I can see why. I can see why, like, it's all suffering is all consuming, so it's hard to think of someone else. And marriage is about seeking to make the other person happy and elevate them. So I can see why it's hard when you're suffering to preserve the sacredness, the sanctity of the marriage. How. How did we do it?

I don't know in what order I'm going to put all of this, but maybe this is the order. Faith, love, community are the three things that come to mind, and maybe they're coming to mind in that order for a reason. Mindy mentioned faith gave me the faith, and I loved it.

That's another podcast.

That's another podcast. Mindy Bear. But she said it, and I loved it. You know, my faith gave me the faith. You know, the faith of one day seeing Fofi in heaven, thinking that there was going to be or knowing that there was going to be a reconnection at one point helped me get through this time. Right. As you say it, if we look at it, you know, as eternity, then this is just a small little part of. Of our lives, if we include the one here on earth and the one up in heaven. So I think the faith was. Was big. I think love and I. And a big part of that faith was that you shared in that faith. Right? So it was, you know, you and I are believing the same thing. You're not thinking I'm crazy or not even that you're thinking I'm crazy. But we don't even have to disagree to disagree here. I mean, we're agreeing to agree here on this one. I think love was a big deal. I remember telling you a lot of times that you were the only other person that understood me, because though my mom suffered greatly, well, she lost a grandchild. She didn't lose a child. So I'm not trying to compare one pain with the other. I'm just saying that it's different. Well, you lost a child, I lost a child. So when you. I had somebody that I felt that could feel my. Could truly feel my pain as a parent that just lost their child. And I felt your love. I felt your love. When I would get home, even though I was crying all day, I would get to come home to your loving arms, come home to our loving house, with our loving kids, and with the love of our community. And. And when I say community, I mean our family and our friends. I mean our church. I mean, you know, our work, schools we went to, fraternity. I was a part, you know, the entire. As I like to call it, the entire crew, the crew that we had been establishing throughout our lives. Yours in Puerto Rico, coming over here from Puerto Rico, mine from my childhood, all up to that point, the entire community just bringing a lot of love and a lot of support, just picking us up when we were down and carrying us through it. It's one of those. You look back now, almost 12 years removed, and it's a lot easier now, but you look back and I remember how bad it was when, you know, when we were living it, where you almost ask yourself, how did we. How did we get through it? But those are the three things that come to mind. What? Do you have any. Any. Anything else that comes to your mind?

The only thing that I would add is intention. I. I remember I had a client who had lost her sibling, and she once told me, do I have to die so that my mom loves me too? Because the mom was so submerged into the suffering that she forgot to love what remained like the surviving child. And I remember. I don't know why that came to mind. It was probably the same day that Fofi died. I remember thinking, I'm going to love my kids and I'm going to love my husband. Because I also knew from my background that most couples didn't make it. So I. There was intention. I set the intention. And when you set an intention, you make a decision. And the decision comes from the word desidere, which means to remove all other possibilities. So I removed the possibility of not loving you enough, not being intimate with you, spending time with you, seeing you, supporting you, and doing the same for our kids. And I remember every day, you're a man of few words, right? Like, I'm the talker. So much so. Oh, my goodness, I haven't told you this. My husband, I talk so much that there were times that he would tell me, baby, do you love the sound of your voice? That was his way of sending me to the sound.

That's why you're doing a podcast, right?

Thank you for listening to me. Thank you so much.

Thank you for listening to her.

And I would tell him, baby, my job is to listen. So when I come home, I want you to listen to me. And he's like, oh, Lord, change careers, please. If you are ready to take your relationship to the next level, go to faithbasedcoachingacademy.com sneak peek. You can find that link in the show notes and look for day two, the video on Fuse. You're welcome. So I remember being intentional about spending time together, like taking care of our relationship. Our time together was always sacred. So we put the kids early to sleep and we would always have time. Whether it was to watch a series or make love or have a conversation, we always had that time. So I remember thinking, I am going to protect that. I'm going to protect that time. And. And I would. And you would come home, and I'm like, you know, I would ask you, how's it going? And I remember you sharing just what you said. Oh, one sec. You know, it was beautiful because by creating that space, I got to hear things that you would otherwise not tell me. Because you're more private. You were more private with your grief. I was more like open book, you know, tell the world. Like, that's how I heal. I process through words. And in a. In a very extroverted way, where I was. You're an extroverted introvert because you're very social and. But you're also very introverted. Right? Like, you. You. You do that with yourself. So by having those moments, I remember one day you saying, oh, I was. What you were trying to tell me was this story. But then I got to hear the. The backstory. You were like, oh, I was in my office crying, thinking of Ofi. And then I was crying even harder of laughter because Ed came in, and Ed is his business partner, and he's super funny. And every time my husband's gonna tell me something about Ed, I know it's about Ed because he starts cracking up. He's unable to tell me the story. Cause he can't stop laughing. So that's Ed. And, you know, and I got to be a part of your grief and your process because there was intention. So I would say, like, don't wait for. Don't wait for things to happen on their own. Like faith, love, and community are definitely healing. They're healing processes or sources of healing. But you get to choose them. And that's all I would add. Like, have intention. Like, choose to be happy again. Choose to love your husband through this and your wife through this. Choose to love your kids through this. And then faith, hope, and community are the how. This is how we do it. I love you.

And I love you too.

Okay, so is there anything else you would like to add or share? Anything that you would want? Like, anything that you feel about relationships or overcoming adversities in marriage that we haven't spoken about?

I think if we were to think about the things that are hardest. I mean, would you want to talk about things that are the hardest, the most difficult right now for our relationship?

Oh, yes. I thought we were in la la land.

No, we are. Because I think it's. I think if we look at the. Whatever disagreement we're having, the majority is coming from. Would you. Would you have a guess? No, no, no, no, no. Like, what's the topic. What's the source?

Children.

Right? It's.

Yes.

You know, you. You want to do something, I want to do something else.

Or parenting.

Or the parenting differences or just straight up.

Other wife. My other wife, if you're listening to this, Mia is my little one. She came after Fofi. She was our little ray of sunshine. Rainbow. Pardon? Hope. She's a rainbow. A rainbow baby. And Mia is my husband's second wife, Mia. He's mine. I married him. Okay? You got to find your own. So, yeah, even that. Like, even the cutest thing, which is, like, she loves you so much and she thinks you're her husband, and she can dispose of your time and everything. Like, it's. It's. It's the cutest thing, and it still means that, you know, she wants her quality time with you, and then. So then there's no time for us. Right? Like, it's. Even the sweetest things of parenting can be a strain on the relationship.

But don't change, Mia, all right? Don't change.

It's okay. She won't. She won't. I. I want to share a story real quick. So Alain takes Mia on. On dates, and, you know, they go. She dresses up and does her hair and gets new dresses and goes to a nice restaurant. And the last time he did that, she was in Il Gaviano, my favorite restaurant. My favorite restaurant. Why did she take her? Just kidding. And she's sitting there and she's like, dad, do you think my husband would let me go out with you on dates? So she's already thinking, like, I'm only going to marry a person.

At least that's what I told her. If he doesn't let us, then you're not marrying him. And if Chichis doesn't let me go with her to music festivals, then she's not marrying him. And if Gordi's wife doesn't let him do what with you?

Meditate with him.

Oh, there you go. You get to get into bed with him at night. He could call you, tell his wife, scoot over.

Meditation. Yes. Oh, that would be so nice. Yeah, right. Anyway, you were saying? So the biggest struggle now is parenting.

Yeah, you nailed it. Intention. I think one word is intention. I think we're. We're in such a busy, I think, stage of our lives because of the kids and their activities. Between Godi's basketball schedule, Mia's gymnastics schedules, Chi Chi's social life. Social life. You get caught up in that wheel and it's go, go, go, go. Go, go, go. And if you're not intentional, I think about spending some time with your spouse, then it's really easy for days, weeks, months to go by where there's zero quality and intimacy and intimacy that has been experienced between the couple. And it's easy. And we see it because we'll see it where a day or two or three or whatever go by where it was just get up, go. And then, you know, I get up before you go, go, go, go, go. Boom. I crash into bed. You got up. Go, go, go, go, go. Boom. You crashed into bed. And next day, it's all over again. I. I think one has to be intentional.

I think some of the things that we do for that, like, you know, the usual, like dinner. But sometimes even with babysitting, it's hard to go out or you're so tired, and it doesn't have to be so complicated. There are times that you literally light a candle and give me a glass of wine, but with water, because, know, we don't drink during the week especially. And. Or we go for a walk, or.

We go for a walk around the neighborhood, and it's. And then that way you're leaving the kids behind. You're still close enough to the house, and it's. And it's simple and it's easy, and it didn't take any sort of planning. All right, we. You ate, I ate. Let's go.

Let's go on dates to the keys. We. We don't go to work that day, and we go to the.

Those are nice.

Those are the Go voting for a day, have lunch and then come back and hustle, hustle, hustle. But we have that time. And then in terms of overcoming conflict resolution, something happened recently, and I think it's important to share. We're at a stage where we don't really have a lot of arguments or big arguments. We've done the work to be in a. In an amazing season of peace. But there's still moments I know that you love me more than anyone in the world. Like, in fact, I want to share this with you. I think I've told you before, but when I was writing the book and I was spending so many hours at the dining table doing nothing else. Well, not true. Like, I was still working and. But I wasn't cooking and I wasn't attending to the home, and I wasn't being the super mom or super wife. I was. I was working a lot. I would wake up at three, and then I would go to sleep super late and. And I remember being feeling guilty that I wasn't being as present because I would see you go out with the kids and ride bike or go for a walk and bring me tea and bring me lunch and give food. Give. You know, you've always done that, but, like, you know, feed the kids. Just do all of it. You picked up the slack. And I would feel so guilty. And I was like, like, man, like, like, like, why does he love me if I'm not doing crap? I'm busy all the time. And that was the first time in my life that I lived and understood unconditional love, like, God's love, because I was not doing anything to earn it, and I was still receiving it in abundance, like, extra. Because now you're literally bringing me tea, bringing me tea. And you would get me at the dining table and pick me up and be like, okay, let's go for a walk. You haven't seen the sun all day. And you would take me out for a walk, and I was like. Like, I would cry to. To my. To caro. To my. My friend. And I'd be like, I don't understand. Like, I suck. I haven't done anything. But you always had this, like, joy and love. And I was like, oh, it's that. It's that free God love that I. I'm sure my parents gave to me, but I didn't feel it. I always thought I had to earn attention, you know, in my family here, I didn't have to.

Oh, they definitely gave it to us because now that we have kids, we see how this works.

So. Yes.

So thank you for loving me when I'm cranky.

I love you always. So, anyway, so. So love is, like, you know, as.

Mindy said in the other thing, you said it perfect. It's like God's unconditional love. At least that's what we strive to get and to receive.

Yes. And then the last thing that I wanted to share with regards to conflict resolution is I. In couples therapy and coaching, I usually tell my couples that all they need is two virtues to make this to rock and to rock their marriage. Two virtues. Humility and accountability. And you taught me both. I needed a humble pie. I always joke like, oh, I'm my mom's daughter. I'll tie, but I'll never lose. Right? Like, I struggled. I struggled being humble enough to see my participation in whatever situation we were in. And you taught me by modeling it to me, not by telling me, or maybe both. But you. Like, I. I've seen you be humble you're the most humble person I know. And. And humility doesn't just mean, like, oh, be simple and don't buy all. No, humility is, is seeking to understand, putting yourself in the other person's shoes, trying to. To see, like, why. Why does. Does she react that way? Why does she feel that way? And then accountability is taking ownership over that. What do I have to do with that? How did I contribute to that? And you modeled that for me. And at the beginning, whenever you would say, like, oh, you're right, I'm sorry, I thought you were just trying to shut me up because I was so alien to that possibility of you realizing you were wrong and immediately owning it that I was like, I thought it was sarcastic. And then when I continued to witness you, I was like, that feels really good. It feels really good when somebody listens and then assumes responsibility as soon as they realize they're wrong. So you taught me that. So I succeeded my career thanks to you, because now I get to teach it to my clients. And just the other day last weekend, probably, you asked me, we were going to a gala, and you asked me, can you be ready at six? And I struggle a little bit with time. It's a thing. And I was like, yes, yes. Hair, makeup, like, everything's, like, already planned. I'm going to be on time. You got it. And another thing that serves me is as soon as you request something that goes to the top of my priority list, like, you tell me, oh, baby, can you take this to the laundry? Even if I'm late to work, I'm going to take it to the laundry. Because, you know, first of all, you never asked for anything. And second of all, you're the most important person in my life, so whatever you ask for is priority. And I did prioritize it until I didn't. Right. I got busy, like, pleasing my son, taking him to a game that he was not going to attend because we had this, and I took him anyway. And then we were having a conversation, and that took a little longer, my son and I. And before you know it, makeup was not done at six. And the proud Betsy, selfish Betsy was like, just go on your own. It is what it is. I don't have makeup. Like, whatever. Like, I totally disregarded that this was important to you that you had asked me with time. And I was like, like. And I really felt like I. I was like, I felt entitled. I was like, oh, my gosh, like, what's. Like, I want to wear makeup. It's a gala. Like, Come on. Like, this guy. So annoying. So I went and I was like, just go on your own. And then you came back and you were like, okay, I'm going to go on my own.

I called you bluff.

You called my bluff. Like, but at the moment, I was okay with you going on your own. Like, I had a backup plan. Until you weren't. Until I wasn't. And it was the way you came to say it. Like, I am gonna go. Like, it was almost like, I am gonna honor myself, even though you didn't honor me, because it's important for me to be there at this time. And something about how you said it reminded me of that this was important to you, that it wasn't just you being annoying with the time. So that's when it clicked. Cause I really was okay in my head. I was okay with, oh, you know, I'll take a ride. I knew who was exactly what was gonna take me. But when you came back and you said that, I was like, whoa. Like, it was like, I snapped out of. And you said it like. Like, I told you it was important to me. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, so I literally did the makeup for a gala in the car, and.

It looked just fine.

I look beautiful.

I know.

Because what was most important wasn't the makeup for the gala, because in the end, the makeup for the gala was for you. For me to look good for you. What matter was honoring you. So I think that the sooner we have that ability to be humble and accountable, take ownership over what we have to do with that, the sooner we're able to enjoy. And that could have sucked as a night if, you know, if I wouldn't have gone with you, you probably would have been upset, and the energy would have been off, and we wouldn't have had the incredible time. It was such a memorable night. We wouldn't have that incredible moment. So life is too short. We get to be humble and accountable, and we get to teach our spouses how to do that. Not by telling him or her that they suck, but rather by emulating it and just modeling it for them.

Well, thank you. Thank you for going and for being on time.

Thank you. Okay, that's it for today's episode. I. I hope this has blessed you, and I hope you've had the opportunity to see yourself in our story and to have hope that even when those seasons of life in your marriage are painful and they. They feel like bad black and dark and, like, there's no coming back from it, that, you know, that there is hope where there's intention, where there's hope, faith and community. And by communities, like those people around you that you go to for advice on your marriage, make sure they're the people that you want to emulate, that you want to be like, don't go to the person that tells you, like, screw him. Like, oh my gosh, send him to hell. Who does he think he is? Go to the person who puts you in your place and gives you the humble pie and reminds you, like, what do you have to do with this? So I hope this has blessed you. I hope you have the most amazing fun marriage ever. Marriage is supposed to be sacred and fun and happy. So do not settle for a mediocre marriage. But that doesn't mean that you have to break it if there's hope in working on it. I love you and I hope this has blessed you. Share with somebody who needs to hear this today. That's it for today's episode. I loved, loved, loved spending this time with you. So thank you for joining me. If somebody came to mind while you were listening, bless them with this episode, send it to them. And if you may, please subscribe and leave a review. Those are really helpful to help us spread the message. And if you want to grow in faith and wisdom, join me@faithandgrowth.com thank you for spending this time with me. Love you. Bye.