Divorce & Starting Again As A Man - David Kite - Ep142

Okay, so this is the whole Mad Academy podcast, episode 142. My guest today is David Kai, a divorce consultant who I know professionally because I've referred people to him. I also know him kind of socially because he's been to Whole Man Academy dinners for quite a while, and it's good to be back on the podcast. I. The last part I did for guys was batch had to look was in December of 2024. And the reason I took that time off was because I was busy building events for the men, building the network which. The kind of membership which I run, which has now grown to 26 men, which is all good. And yeah, it was just. You can't keep all the plates spinning. So it's good to be back doing the podcast. And David, I've got a lot to cover, but David, first off, brother, how are you? Where are you?

Yeah, I'm really well. Yeah, Sitting in my flats at Warwick, living the dream post divorce. I'm somebody who's come through the other end and honestly really have a great life. So you guys out there, when you listen to what we're talking on the podcast, you know, it's, it's not all a hell trip. You, you, you know, there is, you know, rainbow pot of gold at the end of it.

It's. It's important to kind of say that, as you say, you've been through divorce and I haven't and hopefully never will do. But I always find it interesting if people are giving advice on stuff and they haven't actually lived that experience. And not to say that their advice couldn't be good, but it's important for guys to understand, as you said, you know, divorce can be a wild beast and it can either go really well for you or it can be a disaster. Which I know with some men that I'm friends with that have gone through divorce and found it really challenging. And I was thinking of kind of breaking it down into, you know, how men lose themselves pre divorce. You know, why does divorce happen? The identity of, like, who the am I now when you're going through or have divorce, letting go of all the that comes with it, especially if there's. It turns a bit toxic, as it were. And the last one was like redirection afterwards. But tell me first, like, for you, with divorce, I mean, I know I was looking up the numbers and, you know, different countries differ completely, but where are you on the fact, obviously you got divorced many years ago. Where did that. Where do you think that came from?

Yeah, I mean, I Think it's just a simple case that we both grew into different people. So, you know. Yeah, I'm honest with you. Very much in love. At the beginning of our relationship, you know, I was in my, what, mid-20s, you know, my career was going well, relationship was good. I'd have a few girlfriends along the way which kind of bit the dust. Yeah. Found absolutely the right girl for me. We met at work, two great kids. So. And we had, you know, a really, really good life. Then the kind of children left the fold as, as they do, you know, late teenagers, university, college, work, whatever. And I think the kind of things kind of got a little bit frayed. I, I think I stayed very much as the person I always was, but I think my wife had changed and what she wanted was different to what I wanted. We talked about a reconciliation. We had a make or break holiday in. Where was. In Croatia.

Right.

And she was going to cancel it. I said, look, you know, it's, it's a four grand holiday. We're going to get 500 quid back.

Yeah, we're going.

So like, you know, let's just work the math. Let's just go see how it goes. We'll talk a couple of weeks out. Yes. And well, actually just a week afterwards she said, it's, I've had enough.

How did you feel at that time? Did you feel like that was the right thing or.

You know what? I was, I was, I was ready for it. I think it had run its course. I didn't see any point in couples counseling. Some people go down that route, but to be honest, America just run its course. You know, two great kids, great life, ankles fizzled out. Yeah. So I took professional advice and really two routes you can go down. Basically. You can either separate or we get divorced. Separation, it's a bit of a wishy washy, to be honest. You know, and, and sometimes it can be the right thing. You can have a period of separation while you kind of regroup. You. If you think there's something to come back to and if you think you can, you know, recap yourselves together. For me, it was Route 1, it was divorce. And yeah, I mean, I'm, I'd like to think I'm quite a happy, happy, go lucky type of guy. That's, that's the face you see.

Yeah.

I am also very, very determined that I can be really, really focused. So I, I took it as a project. I kind of, kind of got the blinkers on and for me it was a project. Just get the damn thing over the line, become practical. Yeah, I got super practical if I'm absolutely honest with you. I was a complete at work. Absolutely.

What were you doing work wise at the time? Like how did that affect.

So yeah, I was working, I was working at a building society. Unfortunately my career was in banking but I'd had a quite a serious eye operation a few years back and that may have been a factor behind the divorce possibly because unfortunately my income took a drop because I couldn't do the job I was doing, which actually was, you know, was quite. I was dealing with fraud, bank fraud, so very, very forensic stuff. I loved it, but I couldn't do it. Yeah. So I went to, I went to building society as a basic customer advisor where I didn't have to kind of trawl over stats and figures and all that kind of stuff to give my eyes a bit of a break basically just to see really whether I could hold down a job of work, which I was able to. But when you go through divorce, you've almost got your day job and another half day job on top of. Yeah. So you have to, you have to be, you have to be really, really focused with time. Fortunately, the job was a complete doddle for me.

Yeah.

So I, I was actually able to do a very, very big chunk of the divorce work while I was working for my employer. Good thing was because I was interviewer, have my own room and I was able to do all this kind of stuff. And I don't think every kind of clocked.

Yeah, yeah.

Or if they did, they certainly did not realize that three hours out of the working day I was working on my divorce. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll still hit target. I'm still the top achiever in, in the firm.

It's on that. It's a good reminder, isn't it, that it's not just the emotional kind of toil, it is the organization and the whole fallout of it as well. Because you don't just sign a form and it's done.

No, I mean there is it, it is one of the most onerous projects you've got to do. You know, some I've actually dealt with probate, you know, when my dad passed. And there'll be a lot of men on the whole men academy who probably had to deal with that. Yeah, it's very, very much akin with that kind of project, but probably multiplied a few times. Yeah. Because you get curveballs coming from solicitors. My ex was saying this, that and the other and so I had to kind of respond and it Was very difficult not to respond with anger in the moment. The best thing to do was kind of reflect. And it was really tough to learn this. To reflect and do the email. Yeah. After a decent night's sleep.

Yeah.

And do it the following day. But the other thing was I wasn't sleeping very well, I was gonna say.

Because it's, you know, having spoke to. I mean, again, there's 26 guys in the network now and several of them have gone through divorce or going through something similar. And again, it, you know, it can affect each of us differently. And if. Then you're suffering with sleep or you know, that kind of waking up in the middle of the night wondering what the. Going on with your life, it can be really hard.

Yeah. I mean, I was getting two or three hours sleep a day, a night and you know, you can't. Unfortunately not one who needs a great deal of sleep. I'm. I'm kind of six to seven hours type. Yeah. Any more than that. I'm too fuzzy. Any less. You know, just about managing a few days, but not, not, not constantly two or three hours. So basically speaking, I. I went to see a herbalist and got kind of herbal medication. I did want to see the doctor. I didn't want to take the stress card at work because I was still living at the family home. Yeah. Basically I lived in one of the kids bedrooms like a student would.

Well, it's really important. That's such a big part of it. I mean, one of the guys that was in the network, he basically is now divorced from his wife, I believe, but went through the separation. But of course, as you said, when you're living in the same place, it can become very unharmonious. And I know for him, he had an issue where he could hear his wife on the phone in their bedroom and she was on the phone to another man.

Yeah.

If you're in a. If you're in a different house, then you don't have to experience that. But if you're living there and you know. And of course, you know, divorce or separation, regardless of whether it's divorce or not, can happen for various reasons. It could be that you've grown apart or one of you is seeing someone else or whatever. But it is very hard if you're both living in the same. Under the same roof and with kids.

Yeah. And it was pure. It was purely down to maths, you know, having been the primary income earner and you know, earning good money. I'd had this eye operation a couple years or so. Yeah, about two years before the divorce started. And, you know, I was on a job that didn't pay anywhere like what I was used to. Yeah. So, you know, pre divorce, you know, the finances were that little bit tighter. Yeah. So there was no option of me renting or anything. And. And it. Yes, friends will always put you up, but they won't put you up indefinitely. You know, you've got two weeks and.

You want your own space, don't you?

And you want your own space. So basically, the way it kind of worked and it. It kind of worked, it wasn't great. But basically speaking, we live separate lives under the same roof. My wife had the marital bedroom with the ensuite. I wanted kids, crappy bedrooms. Yeah. Got a. I don't know, got one of these kind of canvas wardrobe things that the cat kept knocking over and stuff. And all my clothes always ended up on the times.

Yeah.

So proper, kind of studenty kind of bed city kind of stuff. Although I never went to university, but it was like. Yeah, it's like university kind of digs and yeah, we just made sure we ate at different times and all this kind of stuff. And it was. It was bonkers, really. But it was all we could do. At the end of the day, I.

Guess nothing can prepare you for that as well because, you know, I kind of broke it down in. Obviously for a lot of guys, in a way, being a divorce consultant, the ideal thing would be for you to be out of a job because there was no divorce, because everybody meets someone who lives in harmony. But as we know, that doesn't happen. And. And I kind of. I guess it's interesting to talk about, let's say guys are listening who are either going through divorce, maybe it's when I say too late for them to resurrect their. That whatever's happened between them. But I know when I went on a Tony Robbins event many years ago out in Miami, and they said at the time, if you're going through a relationship where you're not entirely sure whether it's going to last or not, you know, it's an expensive business when it doesn't, especially if there's kids and houses and, you know, all that involved and emotionally and what their advice was, go away, you know, go home and for three months show up as the man you know, you should be in a relationship, you know, give it your all. And if after three months it's still not working, you've given it a chance. But if after three months things have turned around, hopefully that Will change. But what's your thoughts on that? Because obviously there's the pre divorce stuff which is where, you know, where the damage is done to some extent.

Yeah, no, I think that's quite a good, a good, good idea. Now one of the things that my business was basically was set up post divorce as a consequence of having gone through what I went through basically with my financial background being like my business experience and my personal divorce as, as the kind of personal side of things, that's what how the business came about. So yeah, what I would say is one of the things that if I had known about divorce consultants, if there were people like me around and actually there are now quite a few divorce consultants around. Right. But I believe I'm quite unique. Oh, just excuse me.

Wine, wine, wine delivery.

Oh, reset.

Well, we're back. David had a very important wine delivery, but yes. Where were we?

So yeah, yeah, we were talking about, you were talking about having like a three month kind of make yourself the best man.

Yeah, kind of a make or break.

You make or kind of break thing. And yeah, I think I started to allude to the, you know, the background to me setting up my business. And just very briefly, there are effectively three types of divorce consultant around much, much more now than there was when I set my business up five years ago and my business was set up literally two weeks after I got the divorce done. Clearly it was like a proper, proper, passionate kind of business. I knew I had to do something because of the kind of unfairness of really just going to solicitors and just chucking money after money after money. So yeah, three type, three types of. So one is the emotional type of divorce consultant. So that be the kind of helping people go through the mental stress.

So more like the counseling side of things.

There's that type. You've got the legal types, virtually all of them have been ex solicitors. Right. Okay. So born kind of jumped over the fence really. And then there's the financial divorce consultant of which I believe I'm the only one.

Right.

With 30 odd years of background in personal finance.

Yeah.

And having gone through divorce myself because.

The money side of it, such a.

At the end of the day.

If.

There'S kind of abuse going on and whether it be mental, financial or you know, physical, you know, there may be other matters involved but in most divorces it's down to the numbers. Now solicitors aren't trained in personal finance, they're trained in legal. So you know, when you look at divorce there's kind of three parts you've got the emotional, got the financial, you got the legal. Yeah. But solicitors do the whole lot. And that's where some of the problems come in.

Because do you think people go to a solicitor too early as well because.

They don't realize there's other options much, much too early.

Right.

Now a lot of my, I get a lot of my clients that fall within this three month period you were talking about. So. Okay. Whilst they're becoming the best version they can do.

Yeah.

Giving it a chance. You gain a lot of mental strength by knowledge. Knowledge is power. So I have a lot of clients come to me saying, look, marriage is not great. I'm not sure what I'm going to do.

Yeah.

And I'm really worried about the financials. I'm worried how I'm going to come out financially at the end. I want to be fair. Yeah.

Especially when this kitchen.

But I want to know really, you know, how, how I'm going to kind of split the cake and that's what I do. So I see a lot of clients through this kind of three month kind of period, this kind of period of kind of consideration period. What do I do? And you know, it's, it's the old, you know, fail to prepare, prepare to fail type of thing. You know, if you've got an idea as to what the law is going to say you can do financially and you've got someone, a financial expert who can actually say this is how you can slice all the different assets, you've got the different pieces of the cake. Because pensions is money tomorrow, equity property is money today. But obviously there are estate agents fees, you know, tax consideration, possibly if there's more than one property, you know, you've got savings in investments, we've got money invested in bonds or PEPs or anything like that, you know, stock market based investments. You know, there's kind of charges, accept fees, exit fees and all that kind of stuff.

There's a minefield.

So all money isn't equal. So it's a case of so, okay, because all money isn't equal. What's more important to you? Money today or that pension pot you built up over your lifetime. Yeah. Or kind of splitting it a bit of everything, you know, and then you've got other complications that come in like children. So we've got children there. They come first because, you know, they have to have good living arrangements, they have to be maintained financially and all this kind of stuff. So that's, so it's, it's, you know.

There'S A shitload too. Yes.

You know it. So why do solicitors do it when they are legally trained and not financially trained? Yeah. So because everyone's been conditioned to think divorce, family solicitor.

Yeah.

And it's still that way for the majority of people. However, you know that, that there is a narrowing. I think it was 99. Solicitor might have been even more than that. Yeah. When I got divorced, it's probably about 97% at least there's other options. So, you know, there are quite a lot more divorce consultants, but not, not many that. Not many that I am aware of or indeed any that do the financials and, and have.

I mean, at the moment we're recording this in what we. October 2025 and you know, in my view, the government are busy trying to destroy small businesses and force everybody on universal basic income, which is a really good rabbit hole to go down. But are they making life easier for people to get divorced harder, more expensive or kind of no change at all. I have no concept of like, what, what, what has the landscape changed recently?

It doesn't make a lot of difference. Yeah. What I do tend to find is that just purely personally for me and my diary, when you've got like the fear of the budget that's going to happen, things go a little bit quieter for me. Yeah. Because there is that sense of uncertainty once it's all come out. So we got this November mini budget, whatever you want to call it. I'll be busy. Yeah. You know, in the first week that that's been announced because people will have clarity on what is going to get taxed and then I can. Then, then I will then go through. Yeah. You know, they. I mean, the government's trying to leak things through, but you're never really too sure what is a genuine leak or what's kind of.

Yeah.

You know, so. Yeah. Yeah. Quite interesting really. But yeah, no, I mean, the premise is basically the same. Yeah. And I have clients, I have international clients because basically speaking, it's. It's a similar kind of project. Yeah. Process.

Regardless of where they are.

Knowing your clients, Kyc. Know your clients, you know, as you would in your financial world, you know, you had clients who were super high net worth with high risk or maybe medium risk or high octane risk. And you would you help them kind of find the right investments that kind of suited them. And I try and find the right kind of solution for my clients based upon knowledge of them, but also very importantly, knowledge of their spouse.

Right. Yes.

The situation, it's all great. I work with one. I work with one party. But it's all great. Me saying, yeah, this is great. This is what you can have. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah, go for this. If there's absolutely no way whatsoever that the other side's going to buy into that plan. So you have to cry and think, well, what do you think your husband, your wife is gonna do? What do you think they would think about this that you're asking for? Would you. Numbers are fair, but would you be.

Able to work in mediation between the two, as in instead of one being a client, you know, could it be that you work for the two of them? Or is that.

On very few occasions? So what I've basically done, I'll put it straight out there that I'm not a qualified mediator. However, see, as a consultant, I've got the skill set. I. As an advisor, you have to be licensed as a consultant. You're not licensed for anything.

Yeah.

You have to have a skill set and a competency. Now, I'll be honest with you. I've done loads and loads of mediation with colleagues at work where people have fallen out at work and I've had to bang heads together, all that kind of stuff.

You've dealt with kids?

Yeah, so. Yeah, and kids. So. So actually, you know, I've got life experience of mediation. Yeah. If I get in that kind of situation, what I tend to do, I tend to say, well, what I tend to say, look, I'm working with John as my client. Yeah. So Mary, you know, John is my client. However, what. What I'd like to try and do is explain what I've kind of talked about with John, the ideas that he's got and explain with you so you have an understanding of what he's thinking about. Yeah. And really kind of gather your kind of thoughts on that. Is that the kind of route that you might be interested in? Yeah. So really I can. I can kind of equip you to maybe go both to mediation. So it's almost like a pre mediation arrangement, at least.

Yeah, at least it's an option. Because I know, you know, emotionally hard for men. And again, you know, thankfully. Well, I say thankfully. None of us have been taught how this works before it happens. So it's all kind of completely new to us. And that's where really, you know, say like prevention is. Is. Is a good option to start with. Is first off, looking and saying, you know, and I wrote it down, I've written a small list so I don't it up. But you know, the silent Unraveling how men lose themselves before divorce even starts. And I know is that kind of thing you say, you know, divorce doesn't start with the papers that are served by the solicitor or the consultant or whatever. It begins years before. Like talk to me about what you see especially, you know, predominantly with men who are going to be men listening. But you know what the things that they're saying. Is it that they. I know it depends on each situation, but maybe that they could have done more earlier in the relationship but maybe you've only just realized it now.

Possibly. So I think to be honest, most of the divorces and the clients I see, they. It's a natural kind of wear out of the Marek is. And I kind of see life a bit different now to maybe 30 years ago. We're living longer. So if you think about it, you know, life expectancy 30 odd years ago, probably, you know, we would expect to be alive until perhaps early 70s. Yeah. So you'd retire at 60, 65 and you probably have 10 years of retirement. Then you'd be in a box. Yeah. I think in that kind of world when you got retired you stuck with the person you marry because you only had 10 years left. Yeah, we're living till in our 90s now. That's kind of almost like the norm. Yes. I see us actually having three periods of life. So you've got, you obviously got your schooling years and maybe up to kind of 30. So you got your courting, marrying period or setting up, you know, your desk at home, having children, obviously the early years of your children. So that's a kind of like your first stage, then you've got like your second stage where basically speaking you are as a bloke and obviously the roles are slightly different now. But generally speaking you are, you know, in most cases the major financial provider. You are grafting your nuts off to try and earn a good income to sustain a really nice lifestyle for your family. And you know, you want to be smashing records at work. You want to be seen to be, you know, a good all round guy who's really working hard and you know, and you kind of shattered and you know, so that's like your second stage. And then what quite often happens is because you are so focused on work and being that provider, perhaps you're not giving as much attention to home. Your wife. Yeah, you know, your partner. Your wife or partner. Because you know, you can only juggle so many balls up in the air and it. And it's difficult, you know, and then quite often you Know, your wife will look at it and think, he's not got time for me, it's, you know, he's not the guy that we had fun with in our mid to late 20s.

Especially when kids have arrived. And yes, kids bring a, you know, mostly a financial kind of taxing as well, but also emotional. The time, the sleep, everything else, you just end up, I mean, we've got three little kids who are eight, six and two. So you know, there's never a dull moment. And back to when, you know, 10 years ago we didn't have kids. You had all the time in the world to do whatever you wanted of an evening and daytime. Whereas now one of you is here, there and everywhere. And you know, by the time the kids go to bed at 8, 8:30, we're kind of, you know, they tidy the house up and then you kind of go to bed. You haven't got time to go and do anything else.

No. And that's the kind of thing. And then of course then the kids would probably have left by the time you, you're hitting your late 50s. So you got the empty nesters. And then you kind of think we're not really got a lot in common.

Yeah. What's left?

Yeah, you know, we can try date night and, but it's, you know, it will work for some, it won't work for others, you know, and some people go right through all that lot maybe don't crank on with the work quite so hard or whatever. They kind of probably have a better work life balance and probably their marriages will run right through the full, the full duration. But there it's not, it's not failure to get divorced in your late 50s or 60s or early 60s. What it is is actually a kind of a rediscovery of a new life for you and you owe it to your wife to, to give her the opportunity to have a new life.

I think that's, that's just a really important point and you know, regardless of whether it's been marriage or just a relationship. But you know, I've had this thing, conversation with men before, especially if I've done coaching with them. And we'll obviously talk naturally about relationships, some that are single and some that are married and, or divorced. And you say, I've seen that where guys will feel some kind of guilt around getting divorced. And again, yes, in an ideal world you'd meet the person, you stay with them forever and live happy ever after. But as you said, we, you know, men change, women change, circumstances change and what you don't want to be is locked in a relationship where one or both parties are unhappy and. But just staying there, because it seemed like the best idea at the time. And I had, you know, sadly knew men that worked in the city, that stayed with their wife very nobly, but because of the kids, but they were living in, basically living separate lives. On the outside, you'd think everything's going well, and on the inside, like you say, he was living in the spare room, you know, going out on his own at weekends, just seeing the kids and kind of existing. And you say, well, you know, you don't want to go through life because no one wins when that happens.

No, that's right. You know, and as I say, that third stage of life, you've probably got 30 years.

Yeah.

So, you know, no go. You know, once you're going through, technically through the divorce process, you know, you are absolutely entitled to, you know, to date someone. You know, do your online date and do do it however you want to. It's absolutely and perfectly acceptable and actually a good thing to do.

Yeah. What makes you feel alive again? I think that's important and funny. Which kind of comes onto the second point of my list, which is the identity collapse. When for years you've been David or Anthony or John or Mark with your wife and then suddenly, if you haven't got, you know, if you're not seeing someone else and it's just back to you, suddenly it's. You kind of feel a bit lost.

Yeah. You don't get invited to dinner parties and all that kind of thing. You are. You are, you know, you are the kind of outcast.

Yeah.

You know, you are number. You are the number three. Well, yeah, we'll invite Dave to the meal because, you know, he's. He's always been my best mate and he's going through a lot of. At the moment. Yeah. You know, full. Poor old Dave. John pour old Bill. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they just get shunted and. And I had a period of that and, you know, it's great. You know, I've got good mates and whatnot who kind of did that. And you start thinking, this is. This is ridiculous. You know, I want. I. I like being part of a unit, you know, I like being in a relationship. You know, before I got married, you said, you know, plenty of girlfriends. Some. Some stuck around for a couple of weeks, cut the months and one stuck for 29 years. Yeah. You know, and I've, you know, I've always liked the company of women, so. You Know, and so, yeah, it was natural for me to try and, you.

Know, find someone else.

So, yeah, I mean, to be honest, I. I saw it is like, rather than just going for a beer with your mates, I. I saw it as actually having a nice conversation with a pleasant woman. When you do some dating stuff. Yeah. You know, it's a bit more of an exciting weekend, really, isn't it? Up the boozer.

Well, we. And we all need that, don't we? I. You know, several of the guys I've spoke to who don't have a partner, regardless of whether they got divorced or not. That's the problem is. I mean, especially in the last few years where the working from home kind of numbers have increased and what you've seen is some companies that have technically forced their employees to work from home, but if you haven't got a partner and now you haven't got an office to go into and a commute and stuff like that, for. For a lot of men, you end up losing that routine of the family routine of the wife routine of going to work, and you lose a bit of your. I don't. Again, I guess, better word than identity because you're also not mingling with people and stuff like that.

Yeah. I mean, best times of work was like, you know, having a chat at the coffee machine. You go in the morning, talk about football the night before or whatever it might be with your mates, have a beer after. And, you know, the girls can talk about EastEnders and the soaps. Yeah. We talk about the sport and other stupid stuff. Yeah. But they want to, you know. Yeah, yeah. Working from home is a real difficult one. What I. What I did, I. My brother actually said to me, he said, when he heard about my divorce, he said, what you want to do is make yourself the most interesting version of yourself you possibly can do. I must admit, I don't like my brother. We're. We're like the. The Gallagher brothers, you know, we kind of, you know.

Yeah, but he made a good point.

But. But he. About the only bloody sensible thing he said in his whole life. Yeah. And I. I've actually took that on board.

And how do you do that?

So what. So actually, what I did was I used to support Lemon fc, my local football team, as a kid, when I was, like, 14. Used to go to matches until I was kind of. Until I was courting, I suppose, really. So probably, you know, eight years or so doing that. I thought, I'm going to reconnect and going to go to a local match.

Yeah.

And Got a chat with a guy on the terraces and a real, real, real nice guy called Tufty. He was another day, but known as Tufty Walls. People use nicknames, don't these things. And he said, yeah, he said, you're a good bloke. He said, we always meet at the particular pub every Saturday when there's a home game. We have a few beers, go the matching, have a few beers afterwards. I said, well, great, that's good. Or, you know, jump on board. So, yeah, of course you can, mate, of course you can. And I go, like. I don't go to everybody because now I've kind of got a partner now, but I go once a month.

Yeah, just keep your toes.

And I also, because there's a difficulty with them driving to. To some of the. The evening games. I'll always do the evening match because they're on a Tuesday night. It's enough night. I can, you know, so I've got that. Another thing, I used to play the guitar a little bit as a kid. I was crap. But I've. I've now taken up the guitar. I've been doing that about three years. And you probably know through Alan, who's obviously one of your members of the, you know, the academy. You know, I play guitar and I absolutely loving it because it's like, it really stretches me. It's not just knocking out chords, you know, I'm doing like solos and stuff, all a bit really. But, you know, it's. It's some, some doing that and. And I'm making myself, I'd like to think quite an interesting bloke. I've got a business. Got that to talk about. Yeah. You know, and it's a really exciting business I'm doing. I love every minute of it because I'm helping people. Yeah. Get their way through a difficult time of their life. So. Yeah, although. Yeah, although I'm not that close, my brother, but he did give you one good. I took, I took that one nugget of, of advice from him and to be honest, it's been a game changer. Yeah. You know, I, you know, I've now got a partner, you know, and in fact, if I hold this up here, we've now kind of got commitment rings.

Oh, nice. Yeah.

Yeah. So literally just a couple of weeks. A couple. Three weeks back. Yeah. We've gone out for six years, so we thought, you know, let's make ourselves a unit. We won't go the complexities of marriage or anything like that. Yeah.

But just.

We don't need to, but I like the idea of being part of a unit.

You know, the things about making yourself interesting. You know, there's a lot said online. I mean, obviously I've been talking about issues for men and challenges and, and ambition stuff since 2018. So you can imagine I've seen a lot of people come and go and I've also seen the, the messages change. But what has grown as, as the numbers of people talk about, like, men and loneliness. And again, I, you know, I believe that working from home has probably contributed to that as well. But you do have to take ownership of you. You get to decide if you're lonely. Because if you're saying, you know what, I'm going to go to the local football or go and join the cricket club or go and do. Just do something.

Yeah.

You know, no one else is gonna make you do it. So you do have to take it upon yourself to go and put. And it can be awkward, it can be uncomfortable, but you reap what you sow.

It is, you know, it's, it was quite difficult. Yeah. And also old colleagues or friends that you kind of left by the wayside a little bit, you know, regrouping with some old pals and stuff and just saying, it's been ages, you know, how about let's go for a beer, you know. Yeah. You may or may not be away. I've just got divorced and it'd be nice to catch up. Being a long, long time. I mean, it could be 10 years, but, you know, it's really funny with blokes, after the first half a half a pint, it's like you've never been away. Blokes are so, so forgiving. They'll. They'll have you back in.

Yeah.

Because actually most of them have gone through the same as you.

I was just going to say, you know, they all understand. And it's so funny when you hear, you know, I've, I've, I've dated quite a lot of women, so I have various extensive experience of this where they'll say, oh, I haven't heard from whoever for, for two months. And, and I'll say, well, if you message them. And they say, well, no. And it's funny because as a man, you know, I've got friends I haven't spoke to, like a guy that contact me for over two years. We haven't spoken, but neither of us say, oh, why haven't you texted me? I'm like, I can give a mate. I've been busy. But just. It's just good to connect with again. And this is why, I mean I was going to ask you obviously with the, you know, you've been to quite a few of the dinners I've done up in the Cotswolds and again I've been. The first dinner I did was 2019. So you know, there's been a lot of dinners in London, Winchester and the Cotswolds. But that's a prime example of, you know, you get guys coming to that who don't know anyone apart from they've connected with me through Instagram or LinkedIn or podcasts or whatever. And it takes balls and guts to come to these things. But then afterwards they've met you saying that was such a good night out, I really needed it.

Yeah, no, I love the events. It's really, really good because they're all guys, completely different careers and life, you and lifestyles and you know, different ethos on life and good knows whatever, you know.

And that's where it's interesting. Is it?

And that is what is so, so good.

Yeah, that's exactly why, you know, I mean even the, the two day event that I've done, you know, each year, the adventurer, which is up in the Cotswolds, what I love about that is a, is inexpensive. So money shouldn't be a barrier for guys to come along because for me it's more about, you could say, oh, it's, you know, you're charging a lot more money. But also some of the guys there, they're in the network. It's, it's like we become even more kind of integrated as a good kind of brotherhood and team when they can all get to these things. Yeah, but that's what guys often says. There's hardly anything around for men to go to, whether it is a dinner or, or a one day event or a two day event. Because it can be hard, especially if you've got a wife at home and you're saying, oh, I've been at work a week but now I'm going to piss off for two days and do stuff or one whole day. Yeah, if you can do one or two of those a year or one a year, it can be so helpful for you whether you've got a marriage that's going tits up or whether you've got a great marriage or whatever. Regardless. But those events where we all get together can be so A, fun, B, you make some good new connections and C, you kind of just. I know, it's like a breath, breath of fresh air basically.

Yeah. Blokes need blokes company and there's a lot of blokes that don't have male friends.

Yeah.

And I. That's really sad, to be honest.

Also, if we look at where we are in the world now, I mean, knows where we're going with, you know, AI and social media, it makes it so hard to know what to believe on, on, on any screen anymore.

Yeah.

And I was at. Two weeks ago, I went with one of the members of the network, Chris, to the Festival of Entrepreneurs, which is in the NEC in Birmingham. And for those that don't know, it's, you know, enormous kind of, you know, event, event place. And one of the guys, I mean, there was a lot of talk about AI, unsurprisingly. And yes, it's good to refine your business and optimize things and streamline things, but one of the guys said that there was a talk and there's probably about 40 people in the audience. And he brought up on a screen, he said, I want you to tell me, put your hand up if this picture is AI. And he showed this first picture of, I know, a dog. Half the room put the hand up. Next picture was a, you know, a flower, then a something, something, something. And he said, what does it tell you after all this? No one's got a clue because half the room think it is, half think it isn't. We all changed our minds. And he said, this is the problem now is that AI is so good to some extent that you don't know what yours. You basically will never know if what you're seeing on the screen again is honestly real or not, because it. The advances in technology have been so good. So what you now find is that people have very kind of interesting beliefs or strong beliefs about things which, you know, the media always feel like, loves to generate kind of division and hatred and what have you. But the problem there is that it becomes even more important to find the kind of guys you want to hang around with who've got similar views to you.

Yeah, no, absolutely, yeah.

This is where with. I mean, again, I've done 140 odd podcasts, but, you know, I've made some great connections over the years and in a way we talked about it before we pressed record. But, you know, one thing social media does is allow you to kind of sniff around that person a bit and see what they're about to. To gain, whether you think you'd get on well with them, to be honest, which is always is important. Well, I was going to go To, I mean, emotionally, it's hard. But the last one for me, for men is, you know, we call it the redirection is, you know, post divorce. And like we said, yes, you have to kind of put yourself out there again. But what other advice would you give for men who have, have separated or divorced or split from their partner? Kind of, you know, things that they can do to, you know, not let the divorce define them, basically, possibly more kind of psychologically than physically.

Yeah. Well, first of all, the psychological thing, we touched on it before is don't feel guilt about getting divorced. You know, whether, whether your children are pointing the finger or you personally think it's a bit of a failure. It's not a failure, it's just life is life. Yeah, yeah. Life will chuck you curveballs and, you know, you may not have wanted that divorce, your spouse may have wanted it, but at the end of the day it's what's happened. Yeah. So look at everything as being an opportunity. So, you know, again, I got this from my dad. Basically, if you take a bit of a knock, always take a positive out of everything. Now the positive from a divorce is it gives the opportunity to do a complete reset of your life.

Yeah.

Rather than just carrying on as you've been doing, bumping along, whatever, which may have been fine. You can actually completely reinvent yourself if you want to or redefine yourself. Yeah. And I would say, you know, most divorces are very. Well, a very large number of tend to happen late 50s, early 60s. The empty nester syndrome tends to be quite a big trigger. So, you know, you've got 30 years ahead. Yeah. So, yeah, just think about things. Think about when you're in your 20s, what kind of things gave you a buzz? We were all exciting in our 20s. We always to go to concerts and stuff. We used to get with the mates on the lash and we used to do stuff and then we had kids and we did stuff with kids, but we never then kind of did stuff ourselves because we focus on family. These.

Lose yourself then, isn't it?

And kind of lose yourself. So kind of, I would say look back, look back to your really happy days or when you're a single guy or maybe just caught in or whatever and think about things you did that really, really gave you a buzz. Yeah. And okay, you're not going to be as fit or as agile as you kind of were in your 20s or whatever. You may not be able to do exactly what you could do in your 20s, but look at those things and think. Yeah. You know, as I say, you know, local football, it could be rugby or whatever, you might, you might have been really passionate about your local rugby team, for example. And, and you know, that just kind of went by. You might start, you might still kind of read the little column in the newspapers and local papers, whatever online about how the team did but you never really kind of prop engage. So go back there. Yeah. Make some friends there. Go in the clubhouse, have a beer, have a sit down with someone or have a chat with someone. Make a friend. Yeah. Make a buddy, a rugby buddy and then do that. Or, or again, look at, look at, look at maybe playing sports. Yeah. You know, I'm not too bad at tennis but you know, if you go into a tennis club or, or you take a few tennis lessons or you do badminton, whatever it might be, you're going to meet people. Yeah. And if you meet people, you've actually then creating a life.

Yeah. And you're giving yourself a chance to, you know, if you're looking for a partner. You know, I know online dating is, has grown massively from, you know, there was online dating when I was kind of when I first met Emma like 10 years ago. But obviously for a lot more people now it's more of an option. But you're right, you know, saying, you know, if it's to do with sports or one of the guys in the network does goes like tango dancing.

Yeah.

Other guys try and connect with their cricket team or whatever it is. And I always think like you said, the world's different now in the fact that there's so much information around and it kind of links to the, the kind of strategy I've had for men regardless of whether what relationship but being a one night a week man and say Joe, what one night a week commit that night to saying how can I learn more to be. Be better about my fitness, my mindset, my resilience, my strength, my, my business finances. And like you said, it makes you a more interesting man, to be honest.

Yeah.

And I mean to state the always the last one of that is hence why I started the whole man academy is to get men together because it's so much fun. So even if it's regardless of whether it's the whole man academy and the membership we run. But there's other men's things around that you can go to and if you can't find one, start your own one.

Yeah. What you don't want to be is that traumatized person has been through divorce and you know, you know you've had your leg chopped off and, and you just kind of, you've. You've lost your complete mojo and everything. Yeah. Because actually, no, people will try and support that type of person for a period of time, but they will just grow tired of that type of person. Yeah.

And it's going to drain people.

Yeah, they're just gonna. They will just drain the living soul out of people. And, you know. Yeah. So don't become that kind of person. And how you have become a person, become that kind of person who is exciting, you know, people want to be around. Yeah.

You know, Well, I wrote my final kind of message as, you know, divorce can be the start of the next chapter. And, and that for, you know, I always encourage guys to say, start, make sure they take care of themselves. And maybe it is that you say, you know, you look and say, if I'm restarting my life, what do I want life to look like? And, and, you know, regardless of budget and if you've got a bit of money in the bank, then that makes life possibly a bit easier. But you're right, the big thing for me is if. If men want another partner is make sure you're now showing up as the version of you that you want her to see. You know, it's not that you're not bothering to work out, you're eating shit, you're, you know, drinking a lot. You're just sitting, watching football all day. It's like, okay, do you from the outside, would you want the woman who potentially could be your next partner to see you doing all that stuff? And is she going to think, oh, there's a. There's a man that's going places. Or is it that you have to kind of rip up the. The rule book and kind of start again, basically? So, yeah, do things.

I reckon for a lot of guys, it is. It is quite dramatic. But I reckon quite a lot of guys would have to rip up the rulebook and start again, but start again with what they used to do 40 years ago. Yeah. Because they were exciting to their wives those days. Yeah. They found a wife, they found girlfriends those days.

I was gonna say it's like what attracted, you know, someone to you in the first place? Can you get back to being that, that man? Basically. But, well, mate, this has been. That's why I wanted to get you on the podcast, because it's, you know, it's a big topic for men and women, obviously, but for men, there's, there's not that much around spoken about divorce, but of course it can have such a huge bearing. And my kind of final message there is, you know, if you're in a marriage and you're not sure if it's going well, the first thing is look at yourself and say, what are you showing up as the man you can be? Are you, you know, doing stuff, your wife, are you connecting, you're looking after yourself, etc. But if it comes to that stage, then like for yourself, you know, seek professional help because it can make a big difference.

Yeah. Do not, do not see it as a failure and you know, if it's run its course, deal with it. Yeah. It will be a hell trip of a project that is no fun. You won't get a lot of sleep.

Yeah.

You'll struggle to hold down the job at work, but once you've gone through it, you can then recreate yourself, make yourself a better version that will be infinitely more attractive to your mates around you. Yeah. People you don't know. And, and maybe because of that you'll be more attractive to the opposite sex as well and very likely will find a lifetime partner in the latter stages of your life. So, yeah, you know, it's a good.

It'S a good message to finish with because again, you know, I know it can, you know, knowing men have gone through, I know it can be a tough time, but I also know men that have come out the other side and yes, it's been emotionally traumatic and there's been some turmoil while. But you know, you look back months, years later and realize it was just, you know, a another path of your life that you're going through basically.

Yeah. Big spike at the time. Yeah. But over a time frame it's a blip.

It'll easy just, just flatten the curve, mate.

It's just flattening the curve because it's over time. Yeah.

All right, well. And if guys are interested in, you know, going at this stage, want to, want to have a conversation with your work with you, what would be the best place to catch you?

The best thing, the best way is to, if you go on my website, I've got, there's a link to my calendar through calendarly free 30 minute consultation. I'll have a chat about anything. So even if it's a case of, you know, how did you get out the other side? They may want to talk to me about their particular circumstances, about divorce or if they just want to chat. Yeah. And you know, as a bloke. Yeah. You know, I, I wanna. How did you approach building your lifestyle up, making yourself attractive, you know, which obviously, you know, six years with a new partner now fully committed. Yeah, you know, it's.

Times are good.

Life is bloody good, mate. Yeah, it's really good.

That's what I like to hear. And, you know, that's, you know, one of my big messages for men is of course we're going to get challenges and you're going to be, you know, stuff thrown at you but, you know, to state the obvious, you get to decide how you react to them and it's okay to have a period where things feel like they've gone to shit, but you can come out the other side, basically. Well, mate, as always, when I see you, it's a pleasure. It's good to learn more about you and I'll put the stuff in the show notes if guys want to connect and as always, it's a pleasure.

Yeah.

All right, mate, cheers.