EP007 - Food, fighting, and fat ducks - David Swann

So, David, welcome to the Hotline Academy podcast. I don't know what episode this is because we've got Scott, our team, who's recording podcasts with guys now, and John Down's part of our team recording. So the episode two or five or ten, we're trying to churn through them. But first question for you is where are you and how are you?

Well, I'm home in West London. I'm currently kind of working from home and I'm sort of self isolating, so I'm kind of fine, but I felt better. So not sure I have corona or you know, just down with general aches and pains and flu and you know, I was a bit ill a week or two ago. I had sinusitis and tonsillitis, conjunctivitis. Everything's kind of related to their head. So I'm either run down or I have corona, but I'm isolating like a professional and doing as I'm told, which is very important.

Yeah, fair enough. And how long have you lived in London for?

So I've been here about 10, 12 years. I moved here for work. I never thought I would actually, to be honest with you, I'm from Berkshire, never thought I would come to London because. So I used to work in some very good restaurants out of London and thought I don't need to go to London. But a kind of work opportunity came up. I was traveling in and out of town, I think it kind of made sense. I moved to Chelsea and managed to save money, which was great and live in a great area. So it was a win all round.

So does that mean at the moment with everybody being on lockdown, are you able to get outside a bit and kind of enjoy a bit of fresh air?

Yeah. So the last couple of days I've been out for a walk and actually just yesterday sat on the balcony to do some work as well. So still trying to get some fresh air, but definitely not. I'm not doing any exercise. But we'll walk, you know, perhaps to the butcher, but just certainly through the park and then back home. But you know, unfortunately, I guess I have a garden and a balcony here to enjoy some of the sun.

Priceless at the moment.

Absolutely.

Well, let's jump into for people that want to know more about you, you spent 23 years in the food industry from obviously a young age. So tell us about that. Where did you start and where are you now?

Yeah, well, I mean, I started cooking from a very young age, kind of 12, 13, with my nan or my mum. And cooking for my dad, obviously had some kind of part time jobs and then I started working full time just a few days after my last exam. So I was actually working Ascot Week catering in a bar I used to work at. An Ascot was one of my first jobs. I had a day off to go back and finish my last exam on the Thursday. We finished Ascot Week on the Saturday, got drunk on the Sunday and then I started my full time job on the Monday.

Right.

I haven't really stopped since.

Yeah.

Nice day.

Sorry.

Very fresh for your first day.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's kind of fresh. And yeah, that's really where it started. So I started in a hotel, you know, kind of three or four years cooking there, went to college day release to do, you know, a couple of courses and that's where. That's where it started. I was fortunate to kind of from there go work with Heston Blumenthal at the Fat Duck, which.

Right.

Yeah, it was just an incredible experience. And you know, this is kind of 1820 is a long time ago now, but still leaves a deep impression in my mind. You know, I spent at least four years or over four years with Heston and the team, learnt a lot, taught me a lot of life skills and, you know, kind of got me into the gym, got me focused. When you're working with such a high level of food or industry such as that, you know, everything's important. So it's all about detail, which I kind of transfer into my life now. So, you know, if I'm making a coffee, it has to be the best coffee. If I'm making toast, it has to be the best.

Right.

And that translates to everything. You know, I'm. Yeah, I strive for that perfection in most things or everything that I do where possible, without being a total knob.

Has the search for perfection.

That's one of his programs or his books.

Yeah. Sorry.

Has it held you back at all?

Probably only from myself. You know, from being happy or proud or, you know, feeling achievement.

Mm.

So I think so, you know, I think you can't reach perfection as such. So it's that continual strive or drive to achieve better, achieve more, be better. You know, whatever. If it's sport or if it's cooking or if it's family, you know, do more, be better. And I think that's kind of healthy within reason. There's definitely a balance and, you know, I've kind of learned that again more recently. But there's nothing wrong with healthy and self competition. You know, I compete with myself.

Yeah.

I don't compete with anyone else, you know, I'm very kind of focused and determined, and I think you shouldn't compete with others, but I compete with myself on a daily basis.

Fair enough. Well, going back to working at the Fat Duck, I mean, how does a. How does a chef get to work there? And what is the process?

Well, a long time ago, it was perhaps very different when he was kind of. Heston was kind of up and coming. He had one Michelin star and a few rosettes, was very unhappy. Heard of starting to get a bit of press, and then my head chef at the time suggested I go and apply. And there was another restaurant literally 150 meters away called the Waterside Inn, which was owned by Michelle Rue, who recently passed, which is very sad. And again, that had three Michelin stars, one of the best restaurants in the country. There was only kind of him and Gordon Ramsay, I think, at the time, that had three Michelin stars. And I had trial shifts at both restaurants. The Fat Duck first, the Waterside the next day. Heston offered me a job on the first day. I went to the Waterside the second, and I. And they also offered the role or an opportunity. And, I mean, Heston was just doing some magical things at the time, you know, kind of reinventing what everyone believes, what you think about food, how to cook. It was exciting, you know, it was just exciting. And it's hard work.

How it's presented.

Yeah, how it's presented. I mean, we used to. We used to start when I started that actually when I was working my notice, I would work there on my days off. So I was basically working seven days a week. And we would start at 6am and I started in pastry, so kind of often finished between 11 and 1am was. Was normal. So kind of 17, 18 hours a day was. Was the norm. We slowly dropped those hours back after a year or two that we came in later at kind of 6:30, 7:00am or 7:30. But it's, you know, it's hard work.

How did you stay. I was gonna say stay sane at that point, but also keep your. Keep your health.

Yeah, well, that's a good shout. So Heston, you know, he was responsible for a lot of things in my life, I think. So we used to go to the gym in the afternoon. So you would do lunch service, you know, clean down. Three o', clock, we would try and go to the gym, which we went to in Marlowe. So four or five of us would get in a car and have an hour in the gym, come back and you know, we would, we were drinking a lot of Red Bull, we were drinking a lot of coffee, eating a lot of kind of Mars bars and just kind of self motivating. We were trying to achieve great things in the restaurant. And it did, you know, over time it built up accolades, you know, two star, three star. And the rosettes grew.

Yeah.

You know, became the world's best restaurant. And all of those things naturally evolved. But we, we tried to go to the gym every day. We would meet there, the restaurant was shut on a Monday. We would meet at the gym at 10 o' clock on a Monday train, have breakfast. So it's kind of that, you know, we were very, very focused.

Sounds like a team, a real team.

Absolutely. You've got to rely on each other.

Do you have any days off? I mean off from, from the, that environment even if you weren't actually in there cooking the Monday.

So on the Sunday night we would finish, you know, you'd finish lunch on a Sunday, you'd have a bit of a bigger clean down. We would finish at 5. Then we would often go for drinks together or go home and go out. And that was your opportunity to go and get drunk.

Yeah.

So you know, we go to bars and Maidenhead or reading, drinking, dancing. Monday was the day off which we would often end up working together or at the gym, then go home. And then you kind of start the week again on a Tuesday. And it was, you know, when I started, you know, I crashed my car a few times because I was so tired.

Yeah.

So every morning, you know, in the winter it was cold. I have a jacket and have to have the windows down. Playing music loud, trying to drink coffee, stay awake. To stay awake.

Yeah.

And I had one, had one very big car crash where I wrote to the car. I took out a telephone pole that was on the way home. But in the morning I would often bang people's bumpers in traffic. You know, you just fall asleep and when you hit the kite, shit. And you wake up and again, windows down and try and get your eyes. So it's hard work. And yeah, at one point I said, you know, if I crash again, I have to leave because three or four caches crashes right off the car. It's not healthy. Couldn't open or die.

You probably don't know this, but I worked in a very esteemed restaurant which was the World of Kent Golf Club, down in, down in Maidstone. I've heard of it, waiting tables, but even at that, you know, I was a young pupman, but I Could see that it was, you know, for the guys that were the, say, the front line of cooking, it was, you know, you're not getting any real natural daylight. It was hot all the time. They didn't really take lunch breaks because they were continually tasting little bits of food. And often my friend would say, I'm either not hungry because I'm mildly sick of food, because all day you're continually working with it.

Yeah, we were trying. We would try and eat, but there's very much like that, you know.

Yeah.

Perhaps eat less because you're constantly tasting.

So why, what led you to leave the fat duck?

I didn't share this earlier. I got fired, actually.

The best of us.

Well, listen, I mean, this is. This comes full circle. So we were a very small team and long story, we'd come back from the gym one day. Basically my friend's phone got stolen out of my car. And then I was trying to phone my mum to deal with the insurance because we were, you know, too busy to do anything yourself. Basically had a phone call in this kitchen. This guy wouldn't let me out, who's a guy called James Petrie or Jockey, who's quite famous, you know, now it's for Gordon Ramsay. And, you know, I said to this guy, like, you know, gotta let me out. I need to sort this, sort this out. He knew what happened. Didn't let me out. You don't let me out, I'm gonna punch in the face or I'm gonna smash your face.

Yeah.

And I did. And at the time, at the time, Heston was on the phone to Gary, the head chef, and just, you know, they had a conversation that if that was a guest, you know, that heard in the background, that you can't forgive that experience.

Yeah.

When you phone a Michelin star or two Michelin star restaurant that can't go on. And so, you know, kind of regrettably, I was. I was fired. What was that like? Interesting. Going back to the gym. Heston used to be a kickboxer.

Right.

And that's where we would again, so we'd do some pads and really got me into that. And I was doing some self defense. And when that happened, previously, winding back. I played Ice Seeker for a long time, so I was very aggressive. So I loved this kickboxing with Heston. Then when that happened, I started kind of fighting. So, you know, one transition, it just allowed me to have more time to train some martial arts or ufc, which was kind of growing in popularity then at the time and still is now. So, you know, I was distraught, I guess, at the time, because it was probably the best restaurant in the country. Heston was the best chef, the best place to learn. So it's very tough.

So you went from there. And I know you also worked with Gordon Ramsay.

Yeah, so that was also in between. I was, in fact, working with Heston. And there was obviously a bit of rivalry at the time of Gordon and Heston, which I think now that kind of those relationships don't exist. Everyone's much nicer in the world of food and drinking, and not that those people are nasty, but there was a lot more of a competitive streak. Whereas nowadays, you know, social media and friendships, people will share recipes and they have a bit of banter on social media. At the time, this didn't exist. And I was working at these trade shows, BBC good food shows, where I was supporting the chefs, backstage presentations and demonstrations for a week every year. Met Gordon, who, you know, I was kind of a fan of from a young age, you know, inspired. You know, he kind of also inspired me to continue learning French, which is a big passion. I saw him in Boiling Point, you know, turn around and bollock a waiter in French and turn back to English, and I thought, I want to be able to do that.

Yeah.

And, you know, I'd kind of met Gordon and wanted to go and spend the day there. You often, as a chef, you often go and spend a day in someone else's restaurant for experience.

Okay.

It's called a stage. So you spend a day or a few days for free just to get some experience and see what they're doing. And so I did this one day, and a couple of months later, I got the call from his head chef, asking me if I wanted a job and which restaurant. This was Restaurant Gordon Ramsay and Hospital Road. So three Michelin star flagship. And I just kind of weighed up that Heston was this lovely man, you know, a friend. Gordon, at the time, I didn't see as such a nice guy. And I thought, I'm never gonna get this opportunity again now if I turn it down. So I kind of took it. I left Heston. Everyone said I was doing the wrong thing. Moved to London. That was another stage of moving that was pre proper. And anyway, worked for Gordon again. Long hours, hard work.

What was he like to work for?

I mean, he's a lovely. You know, he's a good guy. He's a good guy. He's. You know, people are after perfection. You've got three Michelin stars, you're charging a Lot of money. Everything has to be perfect or as close to it. So I think in the programs, you see a hard side of him or certainly in the boiling point shows. So if you. If you fuck up or if you're an idiot, you're going to be told. But if you kind of do as you're asked, which is still obviously a lot to ask, it's a lot of pressure, hard work, and ultimately, actually, I didn't get on with someone there and had had some issues. I have sold my car. When I moved, somebody was kind of, you know, modifying or breaking my scooter every week. So on a Friday, we would finish at 2am because you'd have to mop the floor four or five. You know, one week, my mirror was stolen. The next week, the lights were broken, the seat was stolen. This. And I thought it was one of the guys I was working with. And after a period of time, I went back into the chef and I said, listen, Mark, I said. I said, this is what's happened. This is what's happening. I said, if this continues, you know, I'm gonna stab him, is what I told him.

Yeah.

You know, 21, 22 at the time, didn't physically mean to stab him, but there would have been drama and violence. And then ultimately, you know, that happened again another week and I left. I went back to Heston. So it just shows. He was such a nice guy. They took me back, but it was a great experience. And partly, I think I was too young to go and do that or not, you know, worldly enough at the time. So as an adult.

I guess the great thing is you've worked for two of the very top chefs, and, you know, you have to be focused, dedicated. And I shouldn't be able to take constructive criticism, even if it's in the form of having a head ripped off by someone.

Yeah.

So if you were giving advice to a young guy who's looking to move into wanting to work for not just a restaurant, but some of the top restaurants, what advice would you give?

I think they just have to be, you know, prepared to work hard. So maybe the hours are different nowadays. You know, there's more shift work, and they get more days off. So potentially, you work four hard days, you have three days off.

Right.

So you get that break to kind.

Of break, you know, just everything's going on the world. You know, people have more hours off, there's less pressure. But I think you just have to be committed and prepared. Ultimately, it's all about this commitment and do you really do. You. How bad do you want it? You know, do you want to work in a pub and earn X and deliver mediocre food or do you want to be the best because, you know, they want people in there striving for similar goals?

Yeah.

You know, when you're trying to get these accolades and charge that price, everyone has to be aligned.

Ultimately, I guess it comes probably if we, you know, we're speaking to footballers and fighters and guys in the city and media guys, and you realize it does come down to how bad do you want it? Because you need to be putting in. Getting to the top of anything is not easy and never has been. So for now, it's putting in the hours.

Putting in the hours and loving it. You know, you've got to love it, you've got to have a passion. You can't. You can't do the 16 hours a day or 18 hours a day if you don't absolutely love it and breathe it and desire it, you know, So I was fortunate that a young age I had that passion and I didn't become a chef because I was shit at maths.

Are you any good at maths?

I'm actually very good at maths. I failed at school. I failed most things at school, but I'm very good at maths. I'm good with large numbers. Again, that's interesting. You know, if I was to go back to my school now, education is so important. You know, English, maths, communication skills, it, you know, geography, all of these things help in cooking and recipes. You know, if you're buying ingredients, paying staff, you have to rota, you know, says budgets for staff, budgets for food cost. Yeah, all of those. All of those skills that we do learn at school, within reason, are important.

I guess, that the higher up you get as a chef, and especially if you intend to run your own restaurant, you're not solely a chef, you're a businessman.

Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, the kind of last 10 years, probably micro, I try to transition more into that, but, you know, I think ultimately I thought, I can't do this one. At the time, I probably thought at 40, but, you know, I'm very close to 40 right now, so I can't do that at 50, standing behind the stove, you know, having hot bits and, and cooking all day on your feet for 17 hours a day. So, yeah, I tried to transition to that kind of management phase and fortunately that's worked out and there's just a wide scope. So, you know, hospitality is a really Good industry and it's diverse. I've covered restaurants in airlines, you know, galleries, you know, Royal Albert hall, airline food, cafes. And now I'm obviously working on this big project in Dubai. But I think there's always a level of food required. There's always jobs to feed people or produce food, manufacture food.

Well, let's, let's talk about. You just mentioned it. Is it the absolute taste that's in Dubai?

Absolute taste is who. I work from the uk so we're a caterer.

Yeah.

And they provide catering, they feed McLaren, the F1 team, they do weddings and events, currently supporting the coronavirus with supermarket food with Morrisons and Deliveroo, but they also do big global events. So the Saudi cup last week or two weeks ago, which is a big horse race, and now we're kind of gearing up towards the Expo which is being held in Dubai in October. So I'm kind of working remotely from here because now there's a travel ban or else I would be.

Would you. If the world hadn't just gone into meltdown and there was a travel ban, would you be out there now?

I should have been flying Sunday, so I'd have been there for three or four days. So the plan would be three or four days per month to meet suppliers, you know, recruit staff, develop the plans and, you know, kind of build our infrastructure. So now obviously we're having to adapt, which again is what we do in our industry. We just adapt and you make do what you have.

Yeah.

And that's it. You just find a solution and it's tough.

So let's, if we move slightly away from food at the moment and ask you, you've been to our Wholeman Academy events and what first brought you to the whole Man Academy? How did you hear about us?

Well, so I've been friends with Matthew for a long time, for five or six years. I met Matthew at my gym in fact, so we used to have the same pt, became friends.

So have you seen Matt working out?

Yeah.

You know, tell me, intensity, is it on a 0 to 10, is it naught or is it 1?

Probably a good one.

Good, powerful one.

You know, he's also messaged me about, you know, he wants to do a bit of wrestling. I think he's keen to, you know, probably learn some self defense skills. You know, that's hard work, but. Well, we should set this up and we'll see what happens. We have a team, a whole man wrestling session, See how Matthew gets on.

A whole man WrestleMania.

Exactly. I mean, this is a Show, I'm.

Seeing it already, that's trademarked. But so the event that you came to, which was at the South Place Hotel, what did you think?

Fantastic. You know, really good. You know, initially the truth is I was kind of nervous to come at the start and then I really thought, no, what, you know, I really need to do this. Also had a friend who kind of killed himself last year. He was very young I think I told Matthew, kind of 30 year old, you know, good looking guy, has everything that I guess we associate with. And so that was really hard that he did that, you know, at such a young age. A waste of talent and all those great skills you need in life. And I just thought, you know, anything I can do or we can do to help mental health, you know, it's almost become such a big thing nowadays. And then after that, I guess just out of luck I missed a couple of events, which is a shame. So South Place was my first event where we had Charlie King which is great and judge Rhonda on the pod soon. Yeah. And I just thought they were fantastic and kind of really inspiring. So I guess it was good to see it, to meet like minded people, listen to their stories and see what, you know, you can kind of what resonates with you. So everybody's story is different and their experience but it was really good.

Yeah.

So I look, I look forward to more.

Yeah, that's our thing at the moment I guess. We obviously we had our whole man Academy dinner as well as with most people we've got all our plans that we had, you know, for the next three months and just of course, well.

Maybe this is it, you know, maybe we can do digital whole man. And actually, you know, the uptake might be more because you can have, you know, I don't know how many viewers you can have but we could, you could host a digital session and then.

It doesn't matter about people wherever they are. No, that's the big thinking behind. Although our events, you know, we really enjoy doing our events. Firstly they take a lot of energy to organize but you know, to make sure they're, they're right. And we've had some events that we would definitely change a lot. Other events like the one you came to where we think we found just the right kind of. Yeah, but, but yeah, we realized, you know, the average guy firstly, obviously if the event is in wherever it is, they've got to be able to get to that location. If it's an evening or a daytime event, they've got to have the time, you know, to be able to maybe tell their partner or not be working and. Etc, etc. So certainly the podcast enables guys to listen to it as many times they.

Want in 24 hours a day, wherever they are.

So hopefully that's. And you're right, that's what we're exploring is the zoom capability of actually bringing. If you said, look, just X amount of guys, I know 20 guys at a time, but once a week or even every couple of days, you jumped on a call. It just gives everybody a chance to.

It's a really nice idea, you know, just kind of thrown out that you could just see kind of mentorship here, you know, that you could, you could log in for 20 minutes and listen to somebody with an appointment. I mean it's a great, a great, you know, there's obviously opportunity from every kind of crisis and I think lots of people are now seeing from Corona as we were just talking off there a minute ago about how our lives have changed pre and post, you know.

Well, actually we've got a couple of questions from the guys who knew that you were going to be on here today. One of them is quite topical. What advice would you give to guys who are crap at cooking but are going to be at home for quite a few weeks?

Find a girlfriend? Yeah, I'm not sure. I think one good thing is perhaps to try and plan meals. So we haven't started to do that yet because I think the supermarkets are going to level out. I mean, I might be wrong, but I think obviously stocking up on things like rice, it's really simple, you know, get some, some protein in your freezer. But I think, I think it's probably a good idea to meal plan, you know, meal prep just so you can think about what you need to buy each week, how you can survive. Yeah, I mean if they can't cook, I probably can't help them right now. But there's certainly a lot of chefs. All of my kind of chefs on Instagram are all making videos. I would normally be. It's now non stop. Everyone I know is making videos of how to. And I used to do a lot of those in my stories, you know, various dishes which people love. But because I haven't been feeling great this week, I've avoided it. But I think in the next weeks that's something I'll definitely pick up and leave as sticky. So, you know, we can ask if people want to make any suggestions because now's a great time to learn how to cook. Yeah, your three weeks, if you're stuck in your house. It's a life skill that everyone should.

Be able to do a live zoom call where you're in your kitchen and you're gonna knock up a dish and you've got 20 minutes and people can log on and watch.

Look, I'm game. Let's do it next week. We'll cook anything and exactly. We can set a time limit, you know, 10 minutes, 10 minutes of prep, 10 minutes of cooking within 20 minutes, show them how to feed their family. There's kind of no excuse right now for people not to be cooking. I know everyone's. A lot of people are buying food in, but with the power of kind of YouTube and the Internet, everyone can learn how to do things.

Well, that's. That's. Maybe you see my personal Instagram stories, but I've been really frustrated in the last few days when people have, you know, especially some of the people that I know who've got gardens. So we're not too. At some lives in an apartment. But I still felt the need to go out and, you know, and you're like, listen, it's fine if you're doing essentials. But they're saying, I need to go out for exercise. But it's the same with cooking. I hadn't thought about, you know, most people have. No, everybody, unless you haven't got a computer, have got access to, as I said in my Instagram, 500 million online workout videos. Actually, there's probably not far off that of free cookery. You know, she say Instagram lives or just, you know, there are so many.

There are so many. You know, even if you go on to BBC website or, you know, Google anything, if you want to learn how to make somebody ask me today about chicken wings. Yeah, Google it. There must be a hundred videos, 100 recipes, and 10 people, you know, that have this on their stories. So no excuse.

No excuse, guys. No excuse. Actually, I have got an excuse. I'm lucky that my. My partner is really good at cooking and I'm really busy doing other stuff, so she.

No, of course. Of course you've got this to do.

This is work.

Yeah, of course.

Well, actually, what we agreed was that. And I think this is fair, Emma, I mean, Emma's a nutritionist as well, and a proper nutritionist who's actually qualified. Not one that has done a weekend's bloody course online and then says, I'm nutritionist. No, no, you're not. You don't know what you're talking about. And it's dangerous anyway. That's another podcast, but we agreed for Em and I. Emma cooks basically breakfast, lunch and dinner every day. But I said I would do Friday nights dinner. Yeah, I haven't actually done one yet and that's been. I did one in about four months, I think. So that was, you know, in 2017. Yeah, I'm building up.

Let me know if you want any tips. You know, if I tell her that.

I've spoken to you, she'd expect me to actually expect.

Yeah, she'll have high expectations.

Dangerous game to play. Whilst we talk about cooking, one of the other questions was, what's your favorite dish to cook?

I mean, that's a really tough one. And again, I think it's a bit of. I'm going to swear here and say a bit of a wanky question, you know, what's your.

Sorry, it depends on where you are.

Yeah. So we love, I guess we love a lot of diverse foods. Once a week we'll have a ramen. So kind of a soup, you know, kind of soup meal, noodles, meat.

Yeah.

So often on a Sunday we'll have roast chicken. Then we'll make the stock all very romantic. Again, as we talked about earlier, that utilization. So try not to have anything to waste. So we'll try and make a really good stock and then a day or two days later we'll have a kind of chicken noodle soup. So I really love that. I really love kind of simple cooking at home. My girlfriend is a very good cook. So again, it's not always down to me to provide meal times. I worked in a kosher food business for five years or five and a half years.

Right.

So you know that ultimately and short of it means no bacon. We were dairy free. So no butter, no cream, no pork products. So bacon is a big fan of me and I'm a big fan of bacon. So the weekends are really important to have bacon and pork. But I certainly love, you know, I also love. Steak is a big thing.

Yeah.

I really am into meat and. But you know, just being responsible here, we buy our meat from the local butcher.

Sure.

So trying to buy the best we can and we're happy to eat less of it. You know, we're eating vegetarian one or two days a week. So talking about, you know, saving the.

Planet, if steak is, you know, something that you're really passionate about if you're going to eat out and we're talking about in London here, what are the kind of one or two restaurants that if you said, you know what, this weekend I'm going Out for a really good steak. Where for you would you go?

I think places like Hawksmoor, you know, so someone that's specific to that niche and M restaurants, you know, they. That is what they do. You know, if you want the best steak, you go to a steakhouse, their independent. Sorry, have you been to Goodman's? Goodman's, exactly. Steak specialist. That is their passion and they build their business upon that. So I think. I think it's really important to think about, you know, what do you want to go and eat? And if you want to eat a steak, seek them out. You know, if someone does everything, they can't be great at everything continually. So, you know, Hawksmoor and Goodman's are great. And it's a shame, obviously, right now all these restaurants are closed, so the hospitality industry is really affected. It's, you know, kind of a third of our country mix is made up by hospitality.

Yeah.

You know, hotels, restaurants, cafes, pubs. Millions of people are unemployed. So it's tough. I think it's really good that, you know, when this comes back, we support our country.

Think for most of us, we'll be. I mean, for myself, you know, working London, for working. Living in London pretty much for kind of 20 years, meant that you've been to a lot of these really nice restaurants and now that we moved away to the countryside, you really miss. There's a few things I miss. One is really good sushi, the other is really good steak. And actually, I now won't eat steak in, let's call it normal restaurants, because after you've been to somewhere that we, you know, the restaurants we discussed, it's so good there.

Yeah.

I'd rather only ever eat steak there and be that, you know, very rare occurrence than actually just eat out somewhere else.

Yeah, I think that's good. Maybe we should teach you how to make, you know, to cook steak at home. So if you can find your local butcher, because there's some kind of good techniques, you come around. A lot of it is really around the technique and I think that's probably what I learned more. So working with Heston was techniques around cooking.

You know, great one.

You don't do things just for the sake of it or because you've been told or because that's what your mum did, because they're terrible cooks. So you really have to think about what you're doing. And that's kind of my thought process. The same is ingrained in me from Hester. Why are we doing that? Question everything. Why am I frying the steak? How am I going to get the best texture. What texture do I want to achieve? You know, how do I achieve it? To be pink throughout. So maybe we could do a steak session with Wholeman Academy.

I'm sure that'd be very popular with the chaps.

And again, just buy the best steak.

You can afford now, in fact, talking.

About.

The mix of, as a chef, maybe you need to understand it's not just about cooking. There's all the different parts to it. But how does it work? As a chef, are you ever concerned about the health, the nutritional value of what you're cooking? I mean, I know especially that sometimes a lot of the restaurants I've been to, the Marcus Waring at the Berkeley and different restaurants where a lot of stuff is obviously cooked in butter. And just general, just wonder what your thoughts were. Do you, if you're designing menu, do you think about the nutrition side of it or is it more taste? How does it work?

Yeah, I think it depends on, on the experience and the restaurants. You talked about Marcus at the Barclay. I mean, that is a, it's a fine dining restaurant. You know, it was two mission starts now. One mission start is their kind of experiences where you go and have a great dinner and you pay and you know you're enjoying it. You're not thinking about, did I get my five a day? So fine dining, you know, isn't about providing people with fine five a day, it's about giving people a great experience. Food that tastes amazing, they can't recreate themselves. You know, it's delicious, it looks pretty, it's served, you know, with great hospitality. So most restaurants aren't really about nutrition. Yeah, I think more so now it's become over the last few years with allergens, it's become really important. But I think that's probably more high street restaurants, you know, they start looking at calorie counts. They want to be responsible. Allergens are obviously huge and playing a big effect now in, in the world, you know, everywhere, in fact, you know, kind of dairy intolerances, nut allergies, you know, wheat intolerances. But I think as a whole, no, I think it really depends on what kind of business you're in and who the market is. So the project I'm currently working on, Dubai, again, it's a, it's a visitor attraction. So again, I think we're trying to provide really authentic food that's good value for money. Tastes delicious, looks fantastic. You know, I'm considering Instagram and that's kind of where I'm at now, the food has to be great, it has to be affordable, has to make us a margin, but it has to be Instagrammable.

Yeah.

And you know how many calories are in it? It's not really in our, in our remit.

Yeah.

There's, there's certain elements. You know, we've got a family area where we're doing ice cream and considering freak shakes, which are kind of a giant milkshake with 2,3000 calories. We think that's obviously a very big treat and it's a special occasion. But that's not the sort of thing we encourage to eat all the time. But as a whole, I think nutrition isn't really considered in that at home we eat very healthily.

I asked you with a couple of questions earlier, you know, what one of your biggest challenges and you said about breaking the ground with a chef ready meal range. So tell us about that, if you don't mind.

So some time ago I worked at Marks and Spencer's five, six years ago doing food innovation for the supermarket, which was an incredible experience. And at the time, and also kind of around the time I was leaving, I had this idea for a meal range including four or five or six celebrity but kind of high profile chefs. And that doesn't exist at the time. It wasn't something MNS would do because they don't endorse celebrities or people like that.

Yeah.

You know, Heston is with Waitrose and probably at the time Sainsbury's was working with Jamie Oliver, Right?

Yep.

But more recently I've kind of landed in a role now where I'm working four days a week so I can try and do projects like this. Excuse me. So right now I've managed to find a team or a group of chefs. So I have four or five chefs that are keen on the project. I've got a manufacturer who I'm actually hoping to have a call with today. So this is very interesting. Yeah, we're hoping to sell a mill range into Sainsbury's with some kind of exclusivity because they have big coverage and then from there take it into Ocado and Tesco's and anyone else that wants it. But I think it can be huge. You know, I've spent a long time considering this and I just think it'll have broad appeal if there's five or six different personalities each creating a meal or two. And in time I think the range will grow to, you know, soups, salads and snacks. And I think obviously with the popularity of programs on the tailor, like Great British Menu, MasterChef and Instagram. Everyone wants to be a chef. Everyone loves these guys. You know, they all know Tom Brown, they all know, you know, Gordon Ramsay and Tom Kerridge. So if you could go to the supermarket and pick up one of the meals off their shelves or you pick up one of Sainsbury's, you know, hopefully you're going to be swayed towards. Towards my middle age.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, here's the next question for you. Fighting again, saying, how did you get into it, but what did you enjoy about it and do you still do it?

Yeah. So, well, I started playing ice hockey when I was around seven, probably until about 17 when I started working or thereabouts, 16. And that was quite an aggressive sport. I've always been fairly aggressive, boisterous. Didn't play football at school, so always played hockey. And there was occasional fights. And then again, probably after that age, I was teaching hockey. When I started working with Heston, I couldn't teach kids hockey anymore. And all I had time to do was a bit of this self defense class, which I enjoyed. Then we'd go to the gym. Heston got me into this kind of boxing and kickboxing, which I loved. I got fired for punching jockey. And then I was. I was attending these fight shows that were in my hometown in Bracknell called Extreme Brawl. And at the time there was a flyer and it said, if you want to train with the best and, you know, blah, blah, blah, call this number. And I did. And that was in probably 2003 and then 2004. I had my first fight, which was highly exciting.

How did that go?

I won in 56 seconds. It was fairly aggressive, but.

And is this what were the rules there? Is it under the MMA or kickbox?

Yeah, so it's mixed martial arts, which is the kind of global sport, obviously people refer to it as ufc, which is more a brand. So UFC is a brand that, you know, use or they, you know, they fight under mixed martial arts kind of rules, and they're the biggest organization in the world. So rules, you know, you're not allowed to grab shorts, you're not allowed to headbutt. No eye gouging. This sounds dramatic now that I'm reading it out to you.

Sounds like a knockout in Maidstone when I was younger.

No knee in the head of a downed opponent. So ultimately you are allowed to kickbox. You know, elbow, knee to the head. Anybody standing, you can wrestle, throw, submit, you know, choke them out. You can't stick your Fingers in the eye. You can't hit me in the balls.

Yeah.

So, I mean, there's a lot of rules to it nowadays and the sports really, really evolved. But for four or five years, you know, I had about nine fights and loved it. You know, I trained, I had some training in America. I spent my 30th birthday in Thailand, kickboxing.

Wow.

And so I think this, that competitive edge has always been in my DNA.

But I guess there's a lot of, a lot of us are competitive, but when you get punched in the face, your level of competitiveness, maybe Dwayne's, you know, for a lot of people. So what was it like for yourself, especially the first, first time you actually got in the ring and, and fought and then you carried on for eight more fights?

Yeah, my first experience, 100% was a bit of an out of body experience. And I'll never forget that night, you know, and, and the kind of party afterward and the smells and all of those memories or associations that I have with that night. It was great. You know, it gave me, give me boost. Bumps. Now thinking about it, I love it. Like I say, I am aggressive and competitive.

Yeah.

And I think you've got to be able to kind of take a punch and just think, you know, I'm fine, you know, as long as you can see what you're doing. You've obviously got to have some skill sets, you've got to be okay at it. You know, you've got a box and kickbox and wrestle. I think a lot of it, as I've become older, is all about the mental side. You know, you've won fight before, you've got in there. So it's all down to you and kind of your mental health and positivity and, you know, so I would do a lot of kind of visualization before fights. Obviously you've got to be in great shape, training hard, eating well, you've got to weigh in the day before. So there's a, there's a lot actually get into that, you know, kind of sacrificing going out, sacrificing drinking alcohol.

What weight were you fighting under at the time?

Was under 70 kilos. So it's 155 pounds. I'm much heavier now.

Do you find that easy? I mean, we had at one of our previous events Greg Wootton, who was the Muay Thai world fighting champion. I'm rubbish in knowing these different weights, but he's, you know, he's probably the same kind of build as me and he said it was, for him, it was very hot. Totally draining. Making weight, trying to cut before the fight and maintain your power and your, you know, your energy and everything else that goes with it. How do you find that?

So at the time, you know, I was doing mixed martial arts a long time ago, before, it was cool. You know, nowadays, everyone loves ufc, everyone wants to do it. So at the time, we knew less about it. So I didn't actually cut that much weight. You know, I probably diet down two or three kilos and, you know, maybe lose a kilo overnight.

Sure.

Whereas nowadays people can do 10 kilos, 12 kilos, no problem. So, you know, most of that would be through diet a few weeks in advance. Then there's kind of a watershed.

Yeah.

Where they kind of, basically, the week before, they load up on water, then they kind of dehydrate, so, you know, you kind of stop water. You have hot salt baths just to dehydrate saunas. And there's a. There's a way, there's a technique to that which, you know, the last five, six years, people have mastered, and they can do it very, very well. But, you know, it depletes liquid from your brain, which obviously isn't the most healthiest.

Yeah.

So you need to be doing that with professionals.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, 10 years ago, when I was fighting, we weren't quite at that level of the weight cup, wasn't there? You know, we weren't training in so many areas that we are now. You know, nowadays it's such a dynamic sport and everybody has, you know, coaches for this, coaches for that. And, you know, when I started, you were either a kickboxer or a wrestler. And, you know, if you couldn't punch them in the face, you would wrestle them and take them down. And nowadays, you know, you have to be good at, you know, gymnastics and you have to be explosive. You have to be strong. Yeah, wrestle. So it's just. It's a tough sport.

So do you still practice as opposed to actually, you know, competing now?

Yeah, a little bit. I mean, for a long time. So I kind of fought for, you know, four or five years, and then I was refereeing, so refereed some. Some great shows again for four or five years. Actually run a mixed martial arts consultancy as well. So I had a website at the time. I was selling fight belts, you know, provide ring girls, cage hire insurance. So I was providing a kind of consultancy service which is kind of new to the industry at the time. But now I'm pretty much removed. You know, I Watch it on tv. I've got a lot of friends that still fight and I train in Brazilian jiu jitsu, which is kind of one aspect of mixed martial arts. I do wrestling, so I have a wrestling coach. And then we're friends. You know, we box, kickbox, wrestle, spa, but very much on a low key, friendly level. But it's kind of good to keep.

Fit and keeps the fitness ticking over.

And it's a buzz, you know, it's an absolute buzz. I really love it.

I'm impressed. I think it takes a special type of person to not just decide to train and get in the ring once, but actually to do it several times. My fighting career, I know you're desperate to know. I did kickboxing for a very short time and not to the point. We were just training and one guy did some controversial roundhouse kick and his boot tickled the hairs on the end of my nose and missed it by a whisker. And that was the moment I thought if he'd have made contact, I'd be able to smell around corners. So I said, I'll go back to football. Yeah, thanks very much. But yeah, it's. I know Mike Tyson was it, that said everybody's got a plan till they get punched in the face.

And it's true. Because in mixed martial arts, you know, lots of people come from this kind of grappling or jujitsu base and you kind of grab hold of people, tie them up, get them to the ground, you know, look for a submission or a choke. But again, if you're doing that and someone punching you in the face, you've got to be able to keep your composure.

Yeah.

You know, get out of that, to turn it around. And I'm kind of fortunate that I'm okay with that. Yeah, I'm okay with being punched.

Yeah.

So that's always good.

And also for, you know, generally in life, you never know what's going to occur. But if you're, you know, for the average person, if you go out and something occurs and you get whacked in the face or something, most of us would probably freak out, freeze, want to run away. But if you've conditioned yourself to be able to actually react in the right way, maybe that's staying calm as opposed to beating the crap out of them. I know I used to work with a lovely girl who, I think she was a second dan, you know, in karate and her partner was a fourth dan. Now, I haven't got a clue what that means, but I knew it meant that they were good. I think he'd competed in the Commonwealth Games, but naively, I remember thinking, oh, that's great, because, you know, like, he can beat anyone up. And she said. She said, honestly, you know, you got to remember that you're fighting in controlled conditions, whereas you could be in a pub with some guy who's smaller than you, and yes, you could take him apart, but you don't know if his mates behind you with a bottle and smashes you over the head. I've been out many times in Maidstone and I remember thinking, there's a good point, because controlled conditions, you know, it's just you and him, you don't have to contend with all the other factors around you. And have you had that where you've been out and you've had to kind of use your. Your skills?

Not. Not for a long time. You know, when I was young and kind of spunky, you know, I used to go out drinking and possibly end up in more of those situations or some of my friends would get in trouble. So I'm very defensive with my friends, so I would step in and, you know. But I think since I started fighting, I've never had a fight on the street. But, you know, you're prepared. Yeah, sounds really naff. But, you know, you just. I'm aware of my surroundings all the time. It's what you do, you know, I also used to do the. Used to work on the door for a few years.

Right.

But you're just aware. I'm aware of my. I'm alert all the time. I like to be in control. So I just think of my surroundings when I go into places. And that means that you're a good.

Friend to have around.

Yeah.

Because, you know, we all need that friend or two who can. I don't back you up. I don't think my best friend Tom wasn't at the event when you came, but he was. He was at the previous one, but many years ago. I mean, Tom's maybe 6, 2, 6 3. He's, you know, probably at the time was maybe 15, 16 stone. Yeah, that's his dream weight now, but that's another story. And I remember it was a night out in Maidstone and some guy walked past us. You know when someone just eyeballs you for no reason and you kind of follow his eyes because you think, is he looking at me? And there was a group of us and he started giving us a bit of shit and one of my friends stepped in and said, you know, what's the problem? And this guy started doing this and he pulled a metal bar out and you think, okay, this isn't good. So we thought, look, if there's two or three of us, we can. And there's only this one guy, we can take him on. And then I turn around and my friend Tom was never blessed with a hot pace for running, but he was a good hundred meters down the high street running in the other direction. And I remember thinking, thanks for. Thanks for letting us handle this one on our own. So that means from now on, if I'm out in London, I know if I'm with you, call me up, yeah, we're safe. And I know that's like 6, 4, so he can take care of himself. As you said. He's super fit or something. Or something.

Yeah.

I would, you know, just to add, I would look for the resolve nowadays, you know, there's no need for that. But certainly it's good to have. If it does kick off in a pub or anything, it's. It's a good skill to have. Even if it's just restraining people, you know, it's something. It's something. It's a good. It's a good. It's definitely a good life. Skills. Talking about the skills again, that discipline, focus.

We're talking of good bits of advice. I know I asked you earlier, one bit of advice, if you could give to a man so he could do his life better. And you said, persevere.

I think so.

Add any more things to that.

You know, I think if we have kind of goals or aspirations or a career path or, you know, a goal that we want to achieve, you know, we all know people achieve things from working hard. You know, athletes don't get into the Olympics from, you know, training once a week casually. They commit to it. They commit to it and make a plan. So perhaps it's make a plan and persevere. And that can be said for everything. You know, at school, if you want to get better at maths, you have to, you know, try harder, you know, put the effort in, carry out these steps, you know, perhaps get a tutor, improve week on week. So I think it's that perseverance is a big thing for whatever is that relationships, making money, learning to cook, learning to learn a language, riding a bike, you know, if you fall off, you know, get back on, let's do it again. And kind of the more of those hours that we discussed. So I think perseverance is a really big thing and you've just got that mental strength to focus you Know, focus and persevere.

Yeah, I think it's important for guys. As you say, if you look at any of the, you know, guys are at the top of the game in as you say, whether it is sport or cooking or finance or media, these people are pretty much living and breathing their career.

Less distractions. You know, when I was, when I started cooking wasn't great. I didn't have a life. You know, I wasn't going out shagging girls and having girlfriends. And that's maybe now put me in the position where I am, but that's where the same in sports. You know, if you want to be good at something, you have to put in the hours, you have to watch your diet, you have to commit to it. So you really have to love it. You have to have the passion. But that commitment to. And self belief, you know, don't worry what other people are doing. Just focus on yourself.

Yep.

Being determined.

I think we determined and unfocused a.

Chap who's gonna be on a podcast. But we were asking him, he said, you know, as you say, you're gonna get knocks along the way and you know, if you see.

What you.

If you call them problems, but they're gonna be opportunities to learn.

Absolutely.

Is part of it. Well, I tell you what, let's wrap it up. So I know you're busy, you've got things to do and people to see. I was going to say about my fake tutorial, no one's got places to go anymore. But yeah, perhaps we'll. If we can jump on a call maybe next week we'll organize a date where we could do a great British steak off.

Sounds fantastic.

Something like that. So in the meantime, I would like to say thank you very much for talking to us and we will speak to you later.

Thank you for having me.

All right, thanks.