EP016 - Finding pride in what you do - Marius Hordijk
Marius Hordijk, a Dutch model who worked for Hugo Boss and 20+ countries, became a life coach and gave a TEDx talk on finding pride in your work. During the pandemic lockdown in Tuscany, he offered free coaching sessions and talks about the pressures of modeling, vulnerability, and his plans for in-person retreats.
I'll hit record. So this is the Whole Man Academy podcast. I am Anthony Asprey. My guest today is Marius. And you were born and raised mostly in the Netherlands. You've been working as a model since 2004. You worked around the world, over 20 countries and six continents, which is quite impressive. You're into psychology, sports, writing, motorbikes. In 2016, you gave your first TED talk entitled Finding pride in what you do, which is really good. Marius, welcome to the Whole Man Academy.
Thank you very much. Very happy that you invited me.
It's a pleasure to have you on. Firstly, we should explain how we got in touch, which was actually that I saw on David Gandhi's Instagram that you're a friend of his, he'd mentioned your coaching, which I think is something we're definitely going to speak about a little bit later in the podcast. But we always ask these questions firstly, which is, how are you and where are you?
Well, the short answer to the first part is, I'm good. You know, considering all the. Everything that's going on, I think we're doing really well over here. I am in a town in Tuscany called San Giovanni Valdadno. This is where I live together with my wife, who is from this town.
And I assume over there, it's slightly different weather to here. So you. Are you able to get out whilst it's locked down? I mean, how's it working for you out there?
That's a bit of a tough one here because we live in the historical center of the town on the third floor with no outside space. So one of the highlights of my day is bringing out the trash, which I do a lot slower than I normally would. So it is pretty tough. Especially now. The weather is spectacular, and especially me being Dutch and having this sort of natural reflex of if there is sun, one must enjoy it. It's quite tough to sort of look at it from the window and imagine how it would be in the sun. But, you know, that's. That's part of what we have to do over here.
So what are the. How can that. What are the rules for you out there at the moment? Are you. Is it just purely to go out to eat? As in to get food, or how's it working?
Yeah, basically, whenever you would go outside, you have this paper that you need to have filled out because there is, you know, police driving around. There are police checks. There's even sort of. Yeah, roadblock sounds a bit more military than what it is. But there are checks going on and you can go out yet for essential shopping and if you have a job that is considered essential for the situation, for the rest, basically it is closed off.
Yeah, it's tough.
Yeah, it's been, it's been more than a month now and that's, I think there's been different phases to it. I think in the beginning it was, you know, there was still some people were not really following the rules properly. Then people were. And then after two weeks of the full lockdown, there was a high hope and an expectation for the numbers to sort of get better. And there was a bit of a delay in that. And I think that mentally that, that was a tough moment for many people, including myself, to sort of think like, yeah, but where's the payoff? You know, we're doing this and we've been doing it for a while and now we'd like to see things getting a little bit better. And that took a little bit, but now you clearly see that is working.
Yeah. So there's, hopefully there's light at the end of the tunnel, I guess, for people in the UK as well, when it's not so strict, which some people do agree with, some people don't, where you can take your one form of exercise a day, which some people unfortunately have maybe been, you know, suddenly they were doing six mile hikes, whereas previously they didn't do much of that at all. So if you were able to get out and do exercise for let's say an hour, what, what form of exercise would you be doing?
Bike. Get on my bike and get into the beautiful hills around here. That's. I used to, I used to be a very, very fanatic runner until about, I think five years ago. Then my left ankle decided that I will no longer be a runner. And then slowly I got into, into cycling. And it's a very good, you know, I still miss running because at the heart of it, that, that's what I, what I love most. But the cycling is just amazing, especially here. It's just, it's gorgeous. And that's, that's the one thing I think one of the first things I was thinking about, I was talking with my wife about it, I think yesterday. What's, what's the first thing, what is the number one thing that you want to do when, you know, when life has hopefully returned to normal? Ish. And that would be in the top three for sure.
What would be the other ones?
Well, there's, I was thinking there's two more. One is to go on a big hike, just get out into nature. Find a path, I don't know, and walk. Go breathe fresh air and look further. You know, I'm starting to get this sort of, you know, you have vertigo and this is more horizontal, I think, sort of that, you know, you don't really see further, further ahead anymore. And I think that would be really nice to just be able to see more. And then the other thing with my oldest brother, not every year, but since about five years, we've done it three times. We go to this rock festival in Belgium. And for now, the one in July is still. It hasn't been canceled, but I cannot ever see that happening. But with my brother and some friends, go to a music festival and sort of be around people without worries. Not sure when that will happen, but, yeah, that would be the top three, I think.
I think that's right. A lot of people, it's that, you know, just getting out and doing what. What maybe is seen as. As normal. And it's interesting, we're talking about the. The effects on all of us for the coronavirus and more so the lockdown. And I see that you spent some time on kind of video calls with some of your mates. I noticed the word wolf pack in, what was it, in Madrid and Canada and what have you. And how does that work for you and what does it give you as a person?
Well, these two guys are my best friends. And I always feel that the WhatsApp group we have. The name of the WhatsApp group is just very aptly named because it's called Borderless. Because we have a Nigerian in Canada, a South African in Spain and a Dutchman in Italy. And because we've been at a distance already for a long time, we are quite used to staying in touch in that way. But now we do see an increase of being in touch with each other. And I think one of the most beautiful sides to just sort of this friendship that we have with the three of us is that somehow there's a certain intimacy that you have when you talk one on one with people instead of with more people. And what I love with them is that we are sort of in three. But it feels like it has the intimacy of one on one. And it can. When we talk, it can just be absolute nonsense. Two very serious topics, topics that are important in our lives. Both of them have two young children. How that's going. The insecurities of that, the insecurities that I experienced in my life. The doubts, the beautiful things. And then after that, most probably a whole bunch of nonsense again, you know, and that's. It's a very, very beautiful, beautiful mix.
Isn't that important though, too, in this day and age where, you know, a lot of us maybe are spread around the world, but it's to remind guys that it doesn't have to be that way of you just whatsapping and, you know, whatsapping is fine, but just being able to see your friend's face and pick up their mannerisms, even if you're talking nonsense, is priceless. How long have you been doing this for?
You mean with them? We always. There's a lot of sort of typing going on over the years. With one of them, I talk a little bit more on video and with the three of us, that's just. We've been just trying that recently. That's been one of the sort of the benefits of. Not the benefits, but sort of. I think it's important in these sort of very tough times to sort of also try to take a moment to stand still at what it brings you, what it has given you, what has been a nice side to it. Because sometimes that can be a bit hard and almost that you feel like you shouldn't be thinking of that. Yeah. Because of how grave the situation is for many people. But then I think that there's. It's also nice to sort of look at that side once in a while a little bit as well. And that we were also talking like, man, do we need a pandemic to do this, to get this done, to just sort of, you know, talk like this. Because it's all. It's a lot of fun.
Yeah. It's funny how it's, you know, this, this was certainly, obviously it's got its good and its bad kind of situations it's created, but it certainly may be reminding us all that staying in touch, you know, distance isn't. Shouldn't be an obstacle. And if we get on to. I mean, the reason that I first heard about yourself, obviously was through David Gandhi. And we'll perhaps talk a touch about him a little bit later. But if we talk to the guys at home about the modeling side view of your life, which obviously was huge, and I must say you probably don't, but the Hugo Boss advert, which you kind of said was your. Probably the biggest thing you worked on, I believe inspired me to start wearing black shirts and I used to wear the aftershave all the time. So it's one of those adverts that really will stay with me. So what was it like being a male model? Especially because it Was you got spotted in South Africa and very quickly had, you know, was it 10 or 11 agencies all interested in signing up at the same time?
Yeah, that was surprising. That was. It was. I was there. I was in South Africa on an exchange program from my university. And there was already before in Holland, there was, you know, sort of other people that had approached me for this work and I was always like, no, I don't want to do that. It's not my thing. Had my, you know, my judgments about that and my opinions about that. And then it was actually someone I truly deeply cared about, who is a psychologist. And then you already know that you're in a bit of trouble with it because she was the one that at some point told me, you're such an adventurous person, whatever comes in your path, you will always say yes. And then just see what happens from there. Except for when it comes to this modeling thing. Interesting. And it was very spot on. It was a very, very good thing that she said. So at some point I was in Cape Town and just decided to, okay, I'm gonna, gonna walk in. I'm not gonna think about it right now. I'm going to walk into this agency and say, hi. Yup, I don't know. Yeah, that's how that sort of got started. And that was just very unexpected how that, how that proceeded.
Well, I know you speak in your TED Talk, which I would urge the guys to listen to as well, because I found it really interesting. But I know you spoke about, you know, sometimes things are down to luck as well. But also you had to take that chance of kind of going and putting yourself in front of people. And of course that means that you're going to be judged on your appearance and, you know, maybe. Maybe nothing else as such. So how was that for you with that feeling again, speaking in your TED Talk about that you've kind of been lucky to get into that role.
Well, that was sort of something that I struggled with for many years was this sort of idea that I just got lucky. And therefore whatever came from that was undeserved because it was just a bit of a fluke and a mix of, you know, the genes that I have and combined with what I also spoke about in that TED Talk, this sort of, you know, fear that you have. I think the older you get, the more many times you can let go of that fear, those thoughts a little bit, which is what other people are going to think. And that always made me sort of, yeah. Play down a little bit the size of what I Was doing. Or this. Yeah, I always, for me, that TED Talk was, Was very. It was important for me as well, because for the first time I sort of said out loud like, hey, I've done really well in this. Why doesn't it feel like that then? But just to sort of say that first part and then to straightaway say it, that publicly was. Was a big learning moment still, even in that moment itself, what was it.
Like doing the TED Talk? Because had you, I mean, there's a big crowd there. Had you spoken in public? Because obviously there's a difference between being a model and having, you know, photographers and stylists and whoever around you to actually say right now you're up and you're talking in public for, you know, was it quarter of an hour or something like that?
Yeah, it was, it was terrifying. It was one of those situations where you think 10 times before, why, why did I do this? And I've learned over the years that it's a great sign when I get that feeling because that means that I'm. That I'm up to something, something new, something exciting, something I haven't done before. Therefore, you can learn a lot from it. Sorry, what was the other part of your question?
Well, actually, I guess it's. I was going to ask what was it like for you? Because you, at that point, you're pushing yourself out of your comfort zone.
Yeah. Oh, and also, yeah, there is, I mean, public speaking is something that I have done. For instance, also university I went to, it was very normal that you had to do presentations. A lot different size crowds, obviously, but you do. I was a little more used to it in that sense. And then with modeling, you do, especially when you do the fashion shows, you get sort of used to crowds. But there's a massive difference between whether I'm working as a model and then I'm just, you know, the model. And. But with the TED Talk, that was. That was me. That was Marius standing there and having to talk. So. And then, you know, it's a TED Talk, so they're very strict also on how much time it is. On the first row there, there was this girl sitting there. She was looking at me, very friendly, but she had a clock that was running, you know, so you do kind of felt the pressure like, oh, okay, let's hope I stay within. Within the time.
Yeah, I guess that's. We've had a couple of guys that have spoken on our podcast who have done Ted talks, TedX talks. And of course, it's so interesting because I Didn't realize the amount of preparation that is needed. I mean, people think, oh, you get up there, do your talk. Thanks, and off you go. But tell us a little bit about how you prepared for it.
Well, the thing is, I've never been very good at sort of going verbatim, really having something written out word for word and memorizing that the way I'm built, that will take away the spontaneity that I just. I will just be focused on the rehearsal of the words instead of me just talking. So I had certain points that I wanted to touch upon, and I chose to have very limited slides and everything because I feel like they can. They can distract quite a bit. So I wanted to keep that very, very simple. And then from there, I practiced a lot and sort of also with the clock running, because that was an important thing. And I was a little bit scared at first because every time I practiced, something else was coming out. It was never really the same thing. But at some point, I did start noticing that the main things will come out. And then from there, as I was telling you, I was quite scared. But then I also know with myself, even today, this talk, I can feel a little bit nervous before it, but then I also know once I'm in it, it's going to be okay. And then there was a beautiful thing that I had to take the train from Amsterdam to Utrecht to go do the TED Talk. And one of my brothers, he lives in Portugal, and he's a big fan of TED Talks, and he's a very proud brother, proud of me, which is beautiful, too, to have that kind of unconditional support. And I was standing at the train station and I felt this tap on my shoulder. And my brother was there. He flew from Portugal to be there. And, yeah, so in the end, my whole direct family, my parents, both of my brothers were there that night. And that made it very special.
So were they in the audience and you could actually see them? And if so, how did that add any extra pressure to you?
It did not. It was beautiful to see them, actually. I had to watch out that I wasn't just sort of only talking to them, but with both of my parents, I still remember this sort of. This pride that was just sort of on their faces. I could see them and I could see those expressions. And that just made me calmer, I think. It just made me sort of think, like, okay, yeah, just this is okay. I know. I feel like I have something that I would like to share, and I feel now comfortable doing that. And that was. It was. It was a special night.
And would you do another TED Talk?
Sure. But only if I would have something that I would, you know, a message that I would feel is worth sharing in that sense.
Yeah. I'm sure you could think of something jumping into. When we spoke about the Hugo Boss campaign, there was something you'd written, which I read, which kind of. I really wanted to ask about where you said that for that campaign. You heard about it, but it was actually maybe three months until it was actually happening. So you had to kind of transform your body, and by that, I'm guessing adding muscle on as opposed to losing weight. And you said I had to live like a monk. So tell us a little bit about that. I mean, what's it like for the. You know, for a model? Because us normal guys, you know, we will try and keep ourselves in okay shape, but, you know, no one's judging you and paying you to be in perfect condition.
Yeah. And I feel like, in that sense, men are at. They have more options than female models, because for female models, there's still more like one body type where with men, I've always felt that there was loosely, maybe three categories where you have the sort of all quite androgynous, really skinny guys tend to be also younger. And then you have, you know, the David Gandhi's, the sculpted gods, and then you got some guys in the middle, you know, that are sort of, like, in shape and fine, but not in those two extremes. And I was. I've always been sort of more in that category. These are not official categories that existed. This is just 13 years of walking around in that world. And. But then, yeah, with. With. With them, they really sort of said, okay, you're. You're the guy, but we do need you to sort of buff it up a little bit. And that was. That was. It was tough. It was a lot of fun because my personal trainer became. Was a dear friend of mine. He's. He's. He was, back then, Dutch Marine corps, and he's 2 meters and over 100 kilos, and there's no fat on there. And so he built this training program for me and came along with me, and it was. It was tough, but it was also, in a way, it was a lot of fun because it was very challenging. I had to do so many things that I'd never done before and sort of go through certain barriers of sort of normally, you know, if you have your own routine, whether that's, you know, for me, like cycling or CrossFit or at some point you can have a day where you think, I'm tired, I have a little pain here, you know, a niggle. Yeah. And then you postpone it a day, and that day can turn into multiple days. And that just in that situation, it just wasn't really an option. And that was very good fun.
What about with the eating side of it? Because obviously if you're needing to put muscle on, you needing to increase your calories, but whereas I'm guessing it's finding that fine line between putting weight on and putting muscle on or putting fat on. So how did you find that? Did you have to increase your calories a lot and were you told what to eat? How did it work for you?
I wasn't told what to eat, but I did sort of ask some help from people that know what they're doing, because I'm really good at eating, but especially back then, I didn't really know that much about what exactly I was eating. That was also because I was just younger and it just would go away somehow. But then, yeah, I did have to eat a lot more, eat certain things more. And also that was tough because I had to think a little bit further ahead and not just open up the fridge and from there, based on what's in there, decide what I'll be eating, but to really sort of have more planned regime, more meals a day as well, which that took some time getting used to. But, yeah, I think the toughest thing was after all of this was done, I was physically quite tired. But then. So I would do a lot less sport. But then the eating habits were still there. So then I straight. I had to watch out, like, oh, let's make sure that this does not turn into a different situation here.
Yeah. Because I guess you end up living the life of a more of an athlete for a while if you're doing that and then suddenly if you're stopping so much of the exercise but your appetite hasn't diminished, then it's easy to stack it on. Well, I think that's interesting because again, for most guys, they just want to get in good shape, but you're not necessarily having that moment. And I'm sure when we speak to David Gaine about this, you're not having. You're not taking your clothes off and having someone judge you on it and pay you for how you look. So have you had any times where you've gone to castings and you've been told that the body you've got isn't what they're looking for?
Absolutely. And that's.
What's that like?
Oh, that's not nice. That's. I mean, I think over the years that has gone from sort of ego and soul crushing to unpleasant. You know, there's been a nice sort of line in there, but still, that's never really what we want to hear. And then I'm not even talking about sort of as a model, being a professional, but just as a human being. You know, there's a joke that something that happened at the Paris Fashion Week. There's the. You know, you have these crazy castings, and it's very hectic, and sometimes you have to wait for hours just to sort of go in and out, and then you have a yes or a no or you hear later. And there was one casting where finally it was my turn. And, you know, you have your portfolio with the pictures in there. And it was just someone with a very stern look. And I'd say it was five people who looked me in the eye and then looked down and up and said, no, it was. I walked out and I was just like, I'm going home. I'm done. This is. This is terrible. Like, I don't belong here.
Yeah.
And that's. I think that's always. For me especially, you know, because everyone has their own insecurities. For me, body has always been a little bit one. One of mine. And. And therefore, for me, it's not even when I'm in sort of the best shape I can be. And I'm still not super comfortable doing that just because, you know, everyone. And those are my insecurities that I have.
It's interesting because I wonder whether you've ever had it where, of course, the average guy would probably quite happily look like you do. Especially, as you said, you're very photogenic. And from every angle, if someone takes a photo, it will probably look really good. So have you found that. That being able to kind of express those feelings of, you know, with. With your own body can become more difficult? Because the average guy will be like, what are you complaining about? Look at you. You know, there's nothing wrong with. You should be happy with it.
And I can see. I think it's a. It's a good point as well. I think it's. It's a bit of a balance that you need to seek, sort of. I understand that, you know, having been able to do this as a living for as long as I have means that something's good about it. You know, I get that, and I appreciate that. But then on the other Hand, it does not necessarily mean that you are now forever sort of bulletproof in what you hear from others or what you sort of think that others might be thinking about you or saying about you. And in that sense, yeah, it is a balance you need to seek, because I can also fully imagine that people look at me and hear that and think, like, oh, yeah, okay, well, let me play the violin for that guy. You know, I get that. On the other hand, I think it's also okay to just sort of, you know, still feel the things that I feel without making them bigger than what they are, because they are just sort of. It's not like I am terrified before these moments happen. It's just more that, you know, if I would have a choice between doing that and doing that with more clothes on, I'd probably take that one.
It's so interesting to hear you say that. And I just wondered if, for the guys that are listening, and maybe, obviously we realize that 25 or 27% of our podcast audience is female at the moment, which is interesting, seeing as it's called the whole man Academy. So, ladies, welcome. But I just wanted. How do you stay strong in this environment that is just judging you? So how do you stay mentally strong?
I think what helped me a lot is to try to see this also as the job. As in, I think also on a photo set in the beginning, you know, there would be 15, 20 or more people around, and I would think they're all looking at me. They're looking at Marius. And that would make me sort of close down and therefore maybe not be able to sort of bring the expression or emotion that they would want me to have. But slowly I started also understanding, wait a minute. The stylist is looking at the clothes. The makeup artist is looking if the face is okay, that the hairstylist is checking the hair. The assistants are checking if the light is falling correct. The photographer looking at the total picture the client is thinking of, is this the image that we want as a company? So everyone is looking into my direction, but no one's really looking at me, me. And that always kind of helped me to sort of relax a little bit into it. And I think also just with. With experience comes this feeling of, okay, this is going to be all right. These are just the circumstances of my job, which is amazing because I'm in a. In the place, wherever I am. And I just need to always keep in mind that you're not necessarily the center of attention, if that makes any sense.
It's something to think about because I also wondered. The other challenge of modeling, I'm guessing, is not knowing when your next working day is and on your next paycheck because it's not a regular job. And I wondered how you managed to deal with that over the years.
I think my number one trick has always been to whenever I am on a photo shoot, I imagine that being the last time I work as a model.
Wow.
So to flip it around and to try to always think whenever an option comes in or whenever a job gets confirmed, that's just another bonus that came and that made me see it in a different light. And that, that has actually helped me a lot to sort of to deal with that insecurity a bit better. And on the other hand, I've always kind of enjoyed it, the not knowing, the sort of, the excitement. But then you do notice that now again, this sort of, this is a job where you as a person and you as a job, they're quite close to each other. So if there would be a period of time where I would not get as many options or not as many jobs, I started noticing that that would also have a little bit of an impact on my self esteem, for example. Being aware of those things have been very, very helpful as well.
It's great to hear because yeah, I guess people don't think about that. Of the uncertainty you have to live with of going from a job where maybe it's being paid a lot of money but it's not a regular income and kind of jumping from one to the other and talking of jumping from one to the other to get onto your, I guess, would you call it your second career, which is your life coaching right Now I know you've had a love for psychology and tell us how and why you got into the coaching side of things.
Well, coming from. I studied social psychology in university and then the modeling happened. So I've never done anything with that in the job sense. I feel like psychology is always around us in any interaction that we have. So in that sense you use, you do use it. But I've always just been fascinated by human behavior and group behavior. And over the years, especially with modeling, there were phases where I was also looking for something else to do. So I spent some years also writing for the Dutch Runner's World, the magazine doing interviews. So it's funny to be on the other side of a conversation like this. But then also my love for psychology and sort of this, not so much wanting to help people, but wanting to have a positive impact that kept on popping Up. So I think about three years ago, three, four years ago, I had a year long course in coaching and that really sort of set me on that path. And the love for psychology and the love for making a positive impact if possible on people that you have around you started shaping in that way.
Is that what it's all about is making a positive impact for you?
I think so. I really believe that, you know, there's one of the impacts that I can have in the relatively small life that we all live is that is a very simple way. And that can be, you know, getting the cashier in the supermarket to smile to being there for friends and family and in this case with coaching, trying to be there for other people as well.
And that's the important point. The reason that I saw you on David Gandhi's Instagram was because you kindly offered kind of free coaching to anybody that was affected by, you know, what's going on in the world at the moment with COVID etc, etc and you know, whatever the issue is. And I just wondered how. Well, no, what's my question? What's the response you've had from that?
The response has been amazing. It's been, it's been very special. In the beginning was it was a little bit overwhelming because from there I needed to set it up and make that happen. So about two days after I sort of published the idea was when the first appointments were happening and it's been very busy since then. And I also had to sort of find my own rhythm in this because these are not exactly conversations where you can have six in a day. You also need to understand sort of where, where do I feel like I can still give someone the proper amount of attention and care? And that's been, it's been very, very beautiful to see the response to it and the openness of people and the need to just like we were talking a little bit before as well, just to sort of communicate with someone else. And it's been a very special experience.
Well, I see you'd written at the heart of it, it's having the chance to speak to a friendly face, which at the moment for a lot of people, even if they had a great social life and a career, it might be that if they're at home on their own, maybe they're not seeing anybody at all. I wondered what's the mix of people that have asked for the coaching, like male to female and age ranges? Have you seen any patterns there?
I think I was actually, because I was curious as well. It's been More men than women. I'd say about 70, 30, somewhere along those lines, age wise. I mean, that might also be because of the age that I have. And therefore, for instance, on Instagram, people that follow me might be in that same age category, but sort of around my age. So from 20 to 40. Something. Something along those lines.
Yeah. And how have you managed? I guess you're going to have a mixture of issues for people. So have you managed your own energy and emotions when you're dealing with challenging, challenging topics?
Right. No, that's. It's. It's a good question. And it's also something. For instance, I asked my. My wife to also keep a little bit of an eye on me, you know, as in, if I come, if I'm done with it in the evening, am I still there? Because sometimes I notice those things a bit less fast. And then people around me, and right now the only person that's around me is my wife. But also I always try to understand if I am in a moment where I can still give or where I actually have nothing to give. And for instance, the first couple of days, I got a little bit worried for a second because in the evenings I would be very, very tired. But because it's also the fact that it's different than with normal coaching. This is people that, until that moment, they are an Instagram username, and you just pop open the screen like we did, and you just have no idea who this person is going to be, how they're doing. But then I noticed after a couple of days that a rhythm kicked in. I was also able to relax more, which is also very, very helpful. And from there, since then, it's just been, I think, many times with these types of conversations, yes, you might touch on more heavier emotions or more complicated emotions or circumstances, but then most of the time, at the end of a conversation, there will be more, people will feel lighter, and that is, most of the time, the energy that sticks with me. So, yeah, that's been. It's always something that you need to keep an eye on. But for now, that's been actually something that I've been surprised about in a positive way.
It's great because it just reminds you that it doesn't matter where you are in the world. You can impact people's lives for good by just, as you say, putting an Instagram post out. I guess it didn't hurt having David Gandhi share it on his Instagram when he's got a million followers. I just had that vision of going on there and suddenly Your email just melting down or your Instagram DMs, because you've got, you know, even if it's a few thousand people saying, yep, I'll have the free coaching.
Yeah, that was because I normally, I'm never the person to sort of ask someone to do that because I don't. I'm not too active on social medias, but in this case, like, you know what? This. I really believe that this is something that a lot of people could be needing. And I wanted to reach more people than I can reach. So I sent a message to David and it was in the evening. And then I didn't really check Instagram until the day after. And then I kind of. I didn't forget about it, but it just wasn't really on my mind. Then I opened up Instagram and I thought the thing was broken. I thought something was wrong. No, that was. It was very kind of him to do that. And it was. It was just sort of very helpful to have more people just hear, like, hey, if you want, just shoot me a message, come have a chat. It is really that simple in that moment to just bring. To bring that, to make it easy for people to just do that. And also a lot of people said, you know, I really appreciate that David Gandhi, or I respect him or he's one of my idols. And he said, you know, that you're good people. So that also made it. Made it easier in that. And that's made me very happy.
It's a great seal of approval. I wonder, just for those listening, what was that like when you opened up your Instagram? Was it that you had loads of messages or likes or, you know, is it that you just kind of look at it and it's just a colossal amount of activity on there?
It was just the whole, you know, when you have those little red things that pop up that you have either some likes or a comment or new followers or. And then in the top, there's the. It was just everything. I don't. And yeah, it was. Then also, it's just not something I use it, but a little bit almost more and just in a private way. And so I just. It's just. That was a new thing and it was straight away. It also. I could feel straight away kind of exactly the reason why I'm very careful with social media, because I started getting this stress, like, I must respond. I need to respond to everyone. And that was a form of stress that normally I either avoid or just don't experience because I don't have that kind of social media power.
Well, I was going to ask you from when you started modeling, obviously the social media juggernaut has just grown bigger and bigger over the years. So at what point would you have got into social media and would you have used it to kind of improve your career?
No, no, that was never. I think that was just. I've never been very good at, you know, self promotion. Sounds too negative. But to sort of put myself out there in that sense, I could see straightaway when social media was coming up more and more that that would make not really be my way. And if that would impact sort of in the end, the modeling, okay, I can live with that. And so that was always just. It was a pretty conscious decision that over the years now, you know, you can go to a casting and they ask you, how many followers do you have? And that question can still amaze me, but it makes complete sense in how it is today. But yeah, that's just never really been, I think, my way to approach it.
Your thing, I guess. I mean, I'm in my 40s now, so I haven't grown up with it. And I'm very thankful I haven't because you see the pressures for maybe the younger guys in the limelight who feel like they need to share everything that's going on, especially for their career more so maybe the personal trainers. And you just wonder how much of their life they end up having to dedicate just to self promotion on Instagram, to then go into a, as you say, with a model with a casting. And those people already know a lot about you and your life.
Yeah. And that's always been something that I've been hesitant about in. So I'm a private person in the sense that the people that I have close to me, the people that I love and I feel comfortable with, I am about. I try to be as much of an open book as I can, but I don't necessarily need to share that with everyone. I wouldn't feel comfortable with it somehow maybe also, I mean, turning 37 soon. So I think it's also related to the fact I also didn't grow up with that. And yeah, I just haven't really. I don't feel comfortable with sort of sharing too much in that sense.
It brings me beautifully onto my next point, which was, I know during your TED TEDx talk, you said about the importance of stopping worrying about the opinion of others. And I guess for you, beautifully, it leads from the modeling side, but how do you think that is kind of shaping your mindset these days.
I think, I mean, up to a certain degree, I can only speak for myself. I will always care a little bit about what other people are thinking. And in a dark night, when the dark thoughts come, I'll probably think that they're thinking the most negative version of what I could possibly imagine. But I have sort of, over the years, just try to let go more and more of those fears. And also, I think when I was younger, there's also. You are more sort of self centered in the sense that over the years I also started imagining, understanding that, you know, a lot of other people won't really. They might have a fleeting thought or something. But I'm a lot less important than I feel in my own life, obviously, so. So I think it was also just in a way, it's an overestimation of self in that sense. And I've always thought that that was a funny way of sort of understanding. Like everyone is the star of their own movie and, you know, there's other people that play a role in it. And I think it just over the years helped me a lot to just also sort of just accept that other people might think certain things. Okay. The people that I from, for me, is important. Those are the opinions that matter. And if they have something to report about, you know, that wasn't very nice or, you know, think about that for a second, then I'll listen.
Yeah, it's an interesting realization to have. It's so important. We had on a previous episode a coach who, you know, said the same about everybody's starring in their own movie. And I guess for you, also on the modeling side of it, if you spent your whole time worrying about what everybody thought, when you've got everybody looking at you for exactly what you look like, it's probably not going to be time well spent. We asked you, we sent you a couple of questions beforehand. One of them was about what one kind of personal habit or daily routine has contributed most to your success. I just wonder if you could kind of tell the guys a bit about what for you has really worked over the years.
Yeah, for me, it has always been movement, as in doing sports, going outside, being outside in fresh air. And that's also why I love living here in Tuscany so, so deeply. I just noticed over the years that I do my best thinking and not thinking when I'm in movement. And this is almost. There was a friend of mine, he asked me, so you're in, you know, you're in this apartment in Tuscany. How is it that you can't really move much because I can only imagine that you must get pretty annoying if you can't move. And he had a very, very good point. But for me, whenever there are, you know, if there's decisions that I need to make or there are certain thoughts that I can't really understand properly, it's not necessarily that I'll go out and that I will always come back with this perfectly packaged answer, but it will always be helpful, if only for the fact that I've managed to just sort of take my thoughts away from it for a while or to just have my other senses be stimulated and just let my brain do what it does.
So it's the movement side of it, as you say. It's either. Would it just be. Would it be movement? I mean, for you, would it be listening to music as well, or would it be happily in your own thoughts?
It can be either one. It can be. For instance, when I go cycling, I never have music. And that's also just from a pure safety perspective, because I do live in Italy and some cliches are a little bit true. So you want to be able to hear cars coming. So that's definitely a safety thing. But for instance, if I'm in the gym, it's always with music and it is loud and obnoxious.
What are you listening to if you're in the gym? What have you got on?
That can be. It can be quite a lot of sort of 80s 90s hip hop. It can be sort of. In Holland, there was electronic music was massive, especially in the 90s, where I kind of grew up with that. There's a lot of that. There is some really loud guitar music, but all, in my opinion, all really good music. But, you know, I guess it is. It is a little bit in the ear of the beholder, let's say.
Yeah, that's a good point. I think it's always interesting to know what some people listen to, whether it's podcasts in the gym and. Or if you listen to dance music or rock music. It's often with people, it's. It's. Sometimes it's surprising when you hear them talking about what they like to listen to in the gym. One guy we spoke to who liked listening to cookery shows.
That's amazing. I would just get way too hungry, I feel.
Yeah, I couldn't see that kind of getting your testosterone pumping and, you know, your blood pumping if you're listening to baking stuff. But another question for yourself was just going on to modeling what's the Best and the worst thing about modeling for you?
That is a very good question. Let's start with the positive. I think that the best thing has been. I mean, there are a few obvious ones. You know, having traveled as extensively as this and having a job where in a short amount of time you can make quite a decent living. I think what I've always truly appreciated is the diversity of people that I've met, that I've worked with. People from all sorts of different backgrounds. If you think of models, these are people that if they didn't have the face they did, they might have been professors or plumbers or in jail or rock artists or like you, you don't know. And so it comes from all walks of life. And that has been something that I've truly, truly appreciated about it, I think. And if I think of what's. What's the worst. The worst side is. I'm not sure if I have a proper, well defined answer for that. I think it is a world that is made of extremes. So there's. In both positive and negative sense. I think what for me personally sometimes has been really hard has just been dealing with the loneliness, the sort of the feeling that you couldn't really share. Things that it was hard to. To explain. I remember at some point, my oldest brother, he lived in India for a year. They were teachers at a school there, him and his wife. And I was living in New York, and we had a phone call and I was at some. This is not something that, in my case happened all the time. And in that moment, it just did that. I was at some glamorous party with movie stars and things. And I was talking to him about it, and he's saying that is just. It's really hard to imagine that right now, considering where I am. And he didn't mean anything negative by it. He was just being very honest. I cannot even begin to imagine that at this moment. And that's something that I felt always, quite a bit. For instance, feeling loneliness in Tokyo. There's been these moments where you just feel alone. And I think for me, that's been the tougher part.
Well, tell us what that's like, because let's say you get sent to Tokyo for a casting. You may be there for a couple of days. I'm assuming that apart from your.
Booker.
Or agent or your model agency, that you're kind of on your own.
Yeah. Tokyo is a very. That's not a. It's a bit of a different situation there that you go for a longer period, you Don't. I mean, you can have a job in Tokyo and you fly in and out, but if you go to Tokyo, you tend to stay a little bit longer. So that was a bit of a different situation. But you can have it in many other cities that you go there, for instance, for a month and, you know, you do castings and go sees and you see what kind of work comes. Comes from it. And yeah, that can be really hard and really fun as well, because all of a sudden you're in Hamburg or you're in Paris or you're in London or you're in Los Angeles, but it's kind of. It's almost, you know, you. It's the luxury problem of, okay, well, I've done what I needed to do this morning and now I have the rest of the day where I can do anything I want. Okay, what am I gonna do? That's. Yeah, it's. I've always enjoyed sort of the. I know for some people what can be hard in this job is to. Is to not have a regularity, not have normal habits. I've always thrived a bit on that. But sometimes it has been tempting to be in a new place. Like, yeah, yeah, okay, it's another new place. I'm just gonna. Got my laptop, I'm just gonna chill here. That has never really been a successful road to happiness, let's put it that way.
We should write that down. But you just mentioned la, and I know one of the videos for one of the campaigns you did was for. They got you dancing and you'd written it was making a disorientated Dutchman dance, which I thought was beautifully written. But what's that like? Because if you're going into castings and you're. Are they asking you to do things that, you know, if you're not a dancer, you don't really want to do, but you're going to do it because they're going to pay you well and it's great exposure. So what's that like?
Well, in that case, I received a phone call, I think it was from my agency in Paris. And they had asked, are you a good dancer? And I told them, no, no, am. Really. It's bad. It's very, very bad. And then they went more into, yeah, but would you be willing to sort of give it a try? And then my answer is always yes. But I do know. I feel like you cannot. You do need to be honest in those moments because at some point it will catch up. Because if I would have been like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I'm a great dancer. That was, you know, they were gonna find out, let's put it that way. And that was, that was, that was quite an experience. That was a typical situation of being extremely far out of your comfort zone. And that was. I had so much fun on that one. It was, it was terrible. It was embarrassing and it was a lot of fun.
I just, I can only imagine that moment for. Not necessarily. Many of us guys are blessed with fantastic dancing skills. So, yeah, to be told that you're going to be up there and judged on not just how you look, but how you dance at the same time is a challenge for the best of us. The other question we wanted to get onto was also about, really, for you, you've changed careers and whilst you were modeling, was there ever a point where you thought, I don't want to do this anymore and you didn't know what career you might move into?
Yes, for sure. I think there's also many times I thought, like, okay, maybe, maybe this is, this is done. I've always been fascinated, as well as when, when do you take that decision? Because that can be a tough one in itself. Because it's kind of. Because you never know when the next big thing is going to happen. It's kind of. So you played the lottery for 10 years. When do you stop buying that ticket? Because maybe next month you win the big prize. But at some point, I do think it's important to think further, to move along. And it can be difficult. Because it can be difficult from the sense that you might need to take a regular job that pays a fraction of what you're used to and you're working way harder or putting in more, more hours. Or for instance, you, you'd like to do a little bit of both. But then from the modeling perspective, it becomes harder for agencies to book you if you are not permanently available. Sure.
Yeah.
You need to have a very flexible other option at your disposal if you want to be able to. To say that. Because if I would have a normal job and on Monday at 8 o' clock at night, I call my boss and say, I can't be there tomorrow because I got to go hop on a plane, that's probably not going to go too well. So that's always. I think it's a tricky one. It's a fascinating one. And I kind of. Sometimes I can compare it to the path that athletes take because they also have a bit of an expiry date on when they need to move on to something else. And that can be tough because you've been very, I mean, for athletes, a hundred times more. I truly believe that because, you know, that's it really needs to be your entire life to be able to perform at that level. So in that sense, it's different. But there is this sort of moment that you need to decide. And now over the last few years, I've been lucky enough to sort of just do it a little bit less and build up something else. And that is actually in the fact that I have this situation. It's been a very pleasant mix because it also. It makes you appreciate it again a lot more than maybe at some point you do. You get a little bit. What's the English word? Not jaded. Is it jaded? Sort of, that you. You get to the point that you are just, oh, I'm in another new place, I'm on another. And if you start doing that a little bit less and you are more in one location, and then you do go to a new place and you meet new people, like, oh, this is kind of fun. This is nice.
I guess for you, it's. As you said, it's been a great opportunity to travel around the world. Do you think that with the modeling that it's a. It's more of a young man's game only because if you then have a family and if you had kids and a partner, then it becomes hard when you're away for an extended period?
Yeah, I think it is harder. I know it's possible. I've seen. I know people that managed to pull it off. But then it also just comes down to your own needs and the balance that you have in your home situation. I have great respect for people that, you know, have multiple kids and manage to do that kind of traveling and still have a happy partner. And hats off to you. I've not processed other reasons that for me, I got to a point where also with the traveling, I just wanted to do. Just do less of that also, just from more of an environmental point of view. But that would be an entirely different topic.
I'm sure that's another podcast we could do. And seeing as we're on the whole Man Academy podcast, which is all about encouraging guys to either talk or get together and talk. Over the years, I mean, you've talked about the fact that you would jump on maybe some. Either some group calls, just with a couple of mates, but who would you be speaking to? Especially as you were you'd started in modeling, what guys would you speak to, if any at all? To kind of discuss the ups and downs and the challenges you were facing in the beginning.
Not really other people in the industry, because I had a bit of difficulty feeling comfortable around people I didn't really know that long. I didn't know that well. And maybe we're just very sociable, very so strong with words. And I would just feel a little bit intimidated. And I would always assume that they were super successful. But that's also kind of. It is a kind of. It's not the easiest environment to open up, I believe, for many, many different reasons. But at some point also, because whatever you say can sort of reflect on the success of your career in the sense that, you know, if you're on a photo shoot, one of the questions you're always going to get is, so, where are you off to next? And if you then say, well, I don't have anything on the schedule at all. I'm just gonna go home and cross my fingers, that can make people think like, oh, really? Oh, perception. Create this environment of always having to have a very successful story in your back pocket just in case. And I actually started noticing that a great way to get past that, I guess, is to be blatantly honest. And I started experimenting with that on a photo shoot. You know, there was, at some point, there was about three or four models, and they were just asking during lunch, where are you off to next? And, you know, the other two said amazing things with amazing places they were gonna go to. And then it was up to me, and I figured, here we go, let's try this. So I just told it. I don't really know. I don't. I mean, I'm going home tomorrow and I gotta wait for the. For the next job. And let's. Let's hope that works out. And it had a big impact on the conversation from there that other people started sharing in a different way, saying, like, yeah, yeah, okay, there is that job. But after that, I actually don't really know either. And it just made the whole conversation a little bit more vulnerable and real, in a sense. And since then, I've managed to just sort of. I've understood that if I show vulnerability or insecurities that I have, it's also an invitation for someone else to share if they have something like that and if they want to.
It's such an important point because I think in any career there's a. And even if it's not in a career, maybe as a guy, there's sometimes a need to feel like you need to impress. Um, and as you say, as soon as you drop your. Trying to think of the word, drop your mask, maybe as it were, then the other guys around you might think, oh, okay, well, actually he's been honest and, or vulnerable and. Or, you know, not pretended that he's something he isn't. And maybe it's okay for me. And that hopefully has a domino knock on effect.
Yeah, yeah, that's at least for, for me. But over the years has also just made me feel a lot more comfortable on set. And again, it's just all part of this evolution of years of also just feeling more comfortable with who I am. And those, I think, always go hand in hand.
And what's next for you?
What is next for me? There is. Well, for sure, the coaching is the main focus. This is something that over the years I've already been sort of going towards and now is really the time to push forward with that. I've always felt that I would love to work with people that are active in the fashion industry, be it models, but also photographers, for example, or other people. Just because I believe that considering what we talked about over the last hours, you find yourself in quite some extraordinary circumstances. And I think that in that sense I'm fortunate in understanding the coaching side of it, but also understanding that world and what it can feel like and the pressures that you can experience or fears or temptations or you name it. That's definitely, that's a good part of it. And next to that, there's a bit of the ironic sense of the current situation, but also been sort of wanting to get people to come to Tuscany for some days, three to five days. Because I truly believe that there's a big power in just being out in nature together, going on hikes together, experiencing nature around you, smelling new things, hearing different things, walking side by side instead of talking like this. That's another thing that's been, you know, going on and is right now on an absolute pause. There's just no other way around it.
Yes, I think it's. I know it's increasingly popular to have the coaching that is more of a one to one, but changing your, changing the location, getting out from wherever you're used to, instead of being at the office, if you're coaching someone and they're in, you know, in an office room or a meeting room. Yeah. To say, look, you know, let's go, let's gonna, let's call it a deep dive and spend a couple of days together. And I guess out there you've got kind of the Perfect environment for.
Is. It really is. It's so beautiful here. Have you ever been.
No, not yet.
Well, and when one day, when you know, things are. Return. Have returned to a form of normal. Please, please do come and visit when we're.
When we're allowed out. And how about yourself? What's your. What's your relationship with London?
Oh, boy, that's. I've actually never really been able to get the hang of London. That's also. I've worked there from time to time, but if I look at sort of the bigger fashion capitals, London I've worked the least in. I have spent proper time there. I think at some point also I met up with David there. I've always enjoyed it. But there was, there was. The weather was very much like what we have in Holland as well. And I would always just go there in the periods where the weather was extremely. Well, I guess English slash Dutch. And so I've enjoyed it but I've never spent enough time there to really sort of have. It's also. It's so big that I just never really got the feeling of understanding, having my bearings and just really understanding a little bit of what the. What the city is about.
It's interesting you say that. Yeah, because I think for the people that are used to living there, it doesn't seem that big. But yeah, if you're not used to coming over there and would you have lived over here at any point if you're working, as in just stay for a little bit or was it just a. Pretty much, you know, a couple of days here and there?
It was most of the time, a couple of days. I spent one time, a couple of weeks there. That was the maximum amount of time that I've spent in London. Those, those were fun weeks because a part of that period I was staying with a friend of mine who was. Who was studying there. So that was, that was. That was good fun.
It's interesting to hear. Well, as you said yourself, hopefully when we can all move around again, if you happen to be coming to London at any have the opportunity, we'd love to buy you a drink in a spot of lunch and meet up and show you some sights. But Maris, I just want to say I appreciate your time in coming to talking to us. It's so interesting to talk to. We're really trying to have a mixture of guys who have got an inspiring story, have got lessons to learn, but also it's just interesting to hear. I don't know about the guys at home, but for us, what's it like, as you said, being a model? What's the ups and downs of it? And we're trying to create a real mixture of people on the podcast that you can listen to that you might not have listened to beforehand. So thank you for that. Also technology for the coaching that you're doing, because I think it's a great thing, especially in this time of need, that anybody can reach out to you and hopefully add some value back. So thank you very much for that.
Thank you for having me.
And if people want to get in touch with you, is it best to jump onto your Instagram or go to your website? What's the best way?
Yeah, I think those are the two best ways you can go on Instagram. It's just my full name. My last name is for non Dutch speakers. Always a bit of a hassle.
How would you describe for us English guys? I used to spend a lot of time with Dutch clients and sometimes you would get their names completely wrong. How would you tell us to pronounce your surname?
Ordek.
Good. We should replay that one so everybody can say it and test themselves. Brilliant. Well, I just. Yeah. Thank you very much for your time. It's great to speak to you and hopefully we will speak to you again at some point.
Thank you very much.
