EP024 - The Gold Medal Standard - Danny Crates

So this is the Whole Man Academy podcast. I am Anthony Astbury. My guest today is the wonderful Danny Crates. Danny is a TV presenter, speaker, event host, executive coach, which is the normal stuff, I would say. The cool stuff is he's a Paralympic icon, gold medal winner and former world record holder. Danny's widely considered one of the greatest British disability athletes of all time, which is Fantastic at a 12 year glittering career that saw Danny win every major title, including the World Championships, the European Championships and the Paralympic World Cup. Danny, welcome to the Whole Man Academy.

How you doing? You're right, I didn't write that intro myself, just so everyone knows that, Right?

Yes, you did. You said to me, if you don't do it, you'll get me in a headlock. But it's important, I think, to set the tone for this podcast because, you know, you're, let's say, in some respects a normal guy, but actually you've achieved some very amazing feats, I think, which we'll delve into. But firstly, we always ask the same questions, which is, how are you and where are you?

I'm the same as everybody else. I'm at home. I'm sitting in the spare room in our house, which, like many people's spare rooms, if you can't see it, but to that side has got all the stuff that's just been rammed over there. My partner has claimed the dining room, which does become our office during the day. There's one child, I've got a 12 year old working just over there doing all his schoolwork. I've got a 10 year old just through in that room doing all his schoolwork and I'm sitting here in lockdown like everybody else.

Yeah, yeah. I'd say it's a challenging time for all of us. It's an opportunity as well to just kind of live a slightly different life, isn't it? Because none of us generally would have, as you said, kids at home in rooms and partners working from home. And talking of that one, first question is, what was it like to have your hair cut by one of your kids?

I know that's pretty scary when your children are standing behind you with the clippers. I must say, you know, in the world of social media, that was a bit of a photo thing, but it was my partner, Gemma, cut the hair, which I don't know actually what's more scary, whether you let your partner do it, because as soon as you hear those clippers go on, you think, right, what have I done to upset her today? Because this could Go really bad for me. But she did alright, actually. She hadn't done a bad job. She didn't go too far with it. This weekend is going to be the real test because this weekend her confidence is up and we're all having our proper haircuts.

It's a dangerous time for a lot of us with partners with clippers and stuff like that. So I understand.

Has yours been done yet?

Well, I actually did mine myself. Emma was a bit too scared to do mine and I mean, my hair's got very long on top but I did the sides and the important thing was that I'm staying straight on because I did it far too short on one side and not short enough on the other. So if I just stay straight whilst I'm doing anything to camera at the moment and nothing from the back. But that's one of the things. I can't wait for the hairdressers to be open because we all know. Or for me, I feel a lot sharper when I've been to the hairdressers and they've tidied your hair up. That's one thing. Now, we met over a year ago at one of the events with David Key, who we both know, and that kind of got us both kind of connected and me learning more about your story and if we could just jump into that quickly, obviously, you know, you were what, 21 when you had an accident and you lost your right arm and could you just tell us, I don't expect you to have to go back all through it again because I don't think that probably does. Does you much good reliving what I guess was a traumatic experience. But could you just tell us quickly about kind of what it was, what it's like for you and what happened and where were you?

So I was in Australia doing what I like to call the Essex version of traveling Australia, which is Sydney to Cairns, in as many pubs as you can do in a year. I actually was right at the end of my trip. There's another story to the end of my trip, but the short story is I was right at the end of it. I had about a week until I was due to go go home. I was doing my last piece of work, which was driving from Brisbane to Cairns. I was working for a backpackers at the time and I was just delivering leaflets and doing some promotional stuff, just, you know, linking them up with all the other, all the other backpackers up the coast and we was going to. Our finishing point was going to be Airlie beach which was. Had been my home for four to five months. And probably the greatest time of my life in that period of my life was living in Airlie beach, working for backpackers, scuba diving. A just an amazing group of people at once happened to be in that same place and we all met each other and we became very strong and that was going to be my finish point. So I was going to get. Some of them were still there, so I was going to get to see them revisit the place I love. And then I was due to go back to Brisbane, straight to Sydney on a plane to go home. And I was about 60 km from Airlie beach in a place called Serena. And I still to this day do not know how or what happened. All I know is that suddenly there was a big rumble and I came to and I was in a ditch 15 metres down an embankment in a car that wasn't very well at the time. And I noticed that there was an arm on my lap. There was an arm land on my lap and I actually thought it was somebody else's side. The passenger in my car turned to him. I was in a bit of a panic. I was like, there's an arm on my lap. And his words, don't look now, it's yours and that's it. And it's just that set into. I don't actually remember much of it. I remember that bit but I don't vividly remember it as a picture. I remember the words but what I did do was I couldn't get out my side of the car so. Because mine was the wrecked side, so he'd long gone, he was up the embankment And I just. I picked my arm up and then just carried it out the car. By the time I got out the car there was only one house on that road. Luckily there was one house on that road. Typical Australian, long straight road. And they heard it and the lady come out to see what happened and she pretty much just rugby tackled me to the ground and sat on top of me because I was running around like a lunatic at the time and losing a lot of blood. So she just sat me down or pinned me down, almost sat on top of me to keep me still and just waited for the ambulance. And then the only thing I remember about that part of it was was the fire crew came down first and they helped put me on the stretcher. And then they realized that there was fuel coming out the car. So they packed like they just wanted to get me out there quick. So they strapped me to the stretcher and led me up this embankment that was quite steep. But they took me up. They took me up feet first. So I started sliding out the back of the stretcher. So I just remember these people trying to hold me on. Then from then it was in the ambulance and just asking for pain relief because by that stage I realized it was really hurting. And then I got taken off to Serene Hospital, which was the local one where they stabilized me. And then they transported me off to Mackay Base, which was the main hospital where the surgeons did the patch up job. I don't remember much. I remember being in a room with people and them asking that, almost asking for permission. They said, look, if we can't save the arm, your permission to amputate. I mean, if you're unconscious, they don't need it. But I was still around vivid at that time and I was just like, do whatever you need to do. Just put me asleep. So all I want to do is go to sleep.

Yeah, just get rid of the pain.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean that. As you were saying, I was just thinking, I guess to state the obvious, it kind of started a new chapter in your life, but also sent you down a new path that guessing perhaps you wouldn't have taken had that not have happened. And I was reading your buying, you said it was about now focusing on the future and regaining your positive attitude and having determination, which I mean anybody that understands your story and listens to this podcast will understand you have in abundance. And I see that you said you were on the rugby field within six months of that.

Yeah, well, that was. I mean, I came back, I came back home, I had a stint of what I call rehab the Jack Daniels way, which was basically just going out with mates, enjoying life. And friends and family were what are so important in these situations. And we have a very close friends, we have a very close family and we take them for granted sometimes, but they're the ones that really step up when you need them. So I still remember it being in hospital. And that was pre mobile phone when they used to wheel the old trolley out every time the phone rang. And as the news traveled around the world pretty much that an English backpacker had lost his arm in a car crash. And it soon became apparent it was a guy called Danny Crates. And my mates started to hear about this. People started phone in the hospital and this nurse used to will this big phone on a trolley out to me and she started getting frustrated with it because it was just nonstop backwards and forwards. But I still remember one of the first phone calls. And it was one of my very, very good friends. And I picked up the phone. So this is two days after my accident. I'm still in intensive care.

Yeah.

Still wired up to all the machines. And I answered the phone and he went, I always said, use a bloody crap driver. He used a different word to that.

But you can swear, you can say whatever you want.

Yeah. Well, these words. I always knew he was a shit driver.

Yeah.

But that's what mates do. Right? So I'm in intensive care, having just lost my arm, and my mate is just like. And you just laugh and then. And that's the thing I realized, even in the darkest moments, you can always laugh. There's always. And even if someone only takes you out of that for a very split second, it's just that reminder that you're not there forever. Right. So. And friends do that. And that's important, that first bit. But rugby's been an important part of my life. And some of my good friends at the rugby club, I went back there to just train. I didn't go back there to start playing. I just wanted to be part of that environment again and, you know, the nurturing environment that a rugby club has. And I'm still very good friends with some of those people that encouraged me back. And I just got on the park, started training, getting fit, really started enjoying it. I was only 21, so I still had that testosterone that a 21 year old had. So I wanted to go smashing into people and big tackles and get flattened myself. And then I just started after a few months of training. So it was coming up to sort of, you know, 11 months post accident. Now I just thought, I want to play rugby again. I really want to play rugby again. I know I can't play to the level I used to play because my aspirations before the accident was to professional rugby. And that wasn't gonna happen, but I still could play rugby. And so we set the date and the date was set. It was almost one year that I was gonna play rugby again and got out of the park and played competitive rugby, full contact.

How did that feel?

And have played ever since.

I just. I'll tell you why. It's great to listen to that. We talk sometimes on the podcast about, you know, gratitude and appreciate new appreciation for life. And I guess firstly, you had a traumatic experience which could have been. Could have gone much worse and your life could have ended. So maybe you have had a new appreciation of life already. But I wonder whether when you went on to the rugby field and started playing again. I can only say I had a collapsed lung when I was a lot younger and had some really nasty operations and they said I might not play football again, full stop. But I did. And I had a huge appreciation, a new appreciation for football to go on the field after that. And I just wonder with yourself, what was that like, that feeling of going back on the. On the pitch either for the first time or playing rugby properly.

I meant it was, it was probably. It was, it was I related to the biggest step on my road to recovery.

Wow.

Because it's the moment I realized that, you know, these traumatic things happen to us in our lives and everyone has trauma in their lives in one way or the other. We lose loved ones, we go through trauma ourselves, be it physical, be it, you know, illness, bit mental traumas. We know nobody's going to get through life unscathed. But the one thing I realized that it doesn't stop you from doing the things you love. You know, it might change the way you do it, it might put it off for a while, but that was the moment I realized I lost my arm. But I could still play rugby and I could still be part of the rugby squad and I still played to a fairly decent level. And that probably was for me, you know, it was emotional, the game. The build up to the game was quite scary because I didn't really know which way I was going to go. Training is a very different environment to being out in the park. But it's quite funny because the physio that looked after me and he looked after, he used to look after the rugby players, but he looks after the great and good of sport. A guy by the name of Kevin Lidlow. And he still does. I mean, half the England rugby team see him. Football players, international athletes, he has everyone going through his doors. But he also was at the local rugby club helping them out at the time as well. And he looked after me after my accident for a year. And I used to see him once or twice a week for a year. And it was always under the thing that he was strengthening up my arm so that I. And it was. And sometimes he was so busy, sometimes I'd be seeing him at like 10, 11 o' clock at night. And it was only many years later that he confessed that the reason he was doing that was it was more about keeping an eye on me because he knew I wasn't the kind of guy that was going to open up so he could keep an eye on me without me knowing I was being kept an eye on, so he would have an idea which way I was going to go. So he was there on the day, and he decided, in his infinite wisdom, the day of the first match, because he knew the opposition were going to be a little bit nervous as well, because we had TV cameras there, Rugby special, we had ITV News there. And then. So he took me in the opposition dressing room just before the match, and he went, look, guys, you know what today's about. We're playing against. It's a big match as well. It's Thurrock versus Gravesend. So Gravesend's the opposite side of the River Thames to Thurrock. So it's always a big clash. You know, you've got Danny playing today. He said, I just want to let you know that he is fit, strong and able to. So don't worry about tackling him, because if you don't tackle him, he's gonna score a try, so you might as well tackle him. And I just walked out of changing. I was thinking, like, cheers for that. Thank you for that. Yeah. But. But it was. I mean, it was such an important part of my life and the team, and they have been all the way through, and as I said, I'm still very good friends with some of them. We still go out with some of them to this day.

I think it's such an important. I mean, there's a couple of, I say, golden nuggets, learning points, whatever you want to call them in that story. And it's just important, as you said, to realize. I know there's sometimes a saying, you know, how can you make your worst day your best day? And understanding that sometimes things happen, and as you said, we're not going to get through life unscathed. I know. Last night I was on a podcast with a guy in California who's just a couple of years older than me, but sadly, his daughter actually got the flu when she was just a young teenager and she passed away from the complications. He said, I fell into depths of despair for months and maybe a year. But he is thankful of the understanding that you can decide what you do and what path you take. And you can either kind of play the blame game and not create anything else in your life, or you can say, I'm going to get on with my life. And as you said, you experience great joy running back onto that rugby field. Now, talking of great joy, let's get into the Olympics, the Paralympics, and winning gold medals and setting world records, because that's something that I don't know Maybe a lot of guys listening to, or people listening to would just think is beyond them. But as you said, in some respects you're a normal guy. So at what point did you say, do you know what? I'm going to move from rugby into the athletics and the running? And Was it always 800 meters? That's what you won your gold in, wasn't it?

Yeah. I mean, that transition from rugby to athletics was. I mean, I'd floated the idea and I was an athlete when I was younger. Never really got to any great standards, but I used to be an athlete and that was portrayed in some of the press from the rugby, that first rugby match. And there was a guy that used to look after the amputee section of British athletics. He had a squad and some of them have been to Paralympic games before. He'd seen that stuff, seen the footage of me playing rugby. He could see that I still had an ability to move fast. And he contacted me and he just said, look, it doesn't mean you're going to be a Paralympian. It's not like that. I mean, the British Paralympic team is one of the best in the world. You've got to be pretty high level just to make the team. But he said, we've got a squad, we train. If you thought about giving athletics a go again. And my initial response is, was like, I'm not really interested. I love my rugby. Just let me concentrate my rugby in a minute. And he'd contact me every now and again, just say, look, how you getting on? I say, look, this is the answer, right? In athletics, after a race, do you get to hang upside down from a barrier and drink Guinness through your ears like you do at rugby? And he was like, no, we don't do that. And I was like, I'm not interested. Then at rugby. And I was actually at a party with some rugby players. Again, some of my very good rugby friends. It was John and Sally Keith's house. I used to live around the house pretty much after my accident, back in the days of the old booze run to France, they used to do the booze run to France, and whenever they did a booze run to France, I can live around the house for about a week. And we'd have cheese and wine parties and it was brilliant. So I was around there one day and there was lots and lots of good friends there. And the phone rang, it was my mobile and it was this guy again. And my mate's wife, Sally, picks up the phone and she went, dan, it's for you. And I'd had a few drinks at the time and I went, whatever you do, do not answer that phone. So she just pressed the green button and went, I'll just get him and and handed me the phone. And so I was like, oh, hi. A guy's name's Peter Arnold. I was like, hi Peter. And he was like, I just see how you getting on, like da da da da. And I was like, look, I'll tell you what, I'll do your deal, I'll come to one of your squad weekends. And they used to do these weekends up in Sheffield. I said, I come to squad weekend. I said, if I don't like it, will you leave me alone? And he went, you've got a deal. I went to this squad weekend, never looked back. I met some athletes and realized for the first time because the fear was it was just like a disability give it a go thing which you know, has its place in life. I'm not saying, you know, that not belittle in any places that are forgiving a go, but for me I wanted to play sport. I wanted to. I just didn't understand. Yeah, and I didn't understand that disability sport would be like. I thought it'd just be a load of old disabled people, you know. And I went there and there was athletes that had been to Atlanta, there was athletes that. One of the athletes was a 400 meter runner and he come fourth in the 400 meters, you know, broken by the fact he didn't win a medal. And I was just like man. And these were fit, ripped guys and girls and Tanny Gray Thompson used to go to that squad as well, work out with them sometimes. And I'm just like man. So my first initial thing wasn't about being a. Just like the rugby, it wasn't about playing, it was about training. The athletics wasn't about winning medals, it was about man. When I was an athlete, a young athlete, I used to watch co cram au vet and I had that dream, you know, of putting on the GB vest. And I thought, I wonder if I can get a GB vest. I wonder if I can make an international team. And I thought, you know what? I'm going to give it a go because what's the worst that's going to happen in six to eight months time I'm going to go, do you know what? It's not for me. And I'll go back to the sport I love, which is rugby, but I'll go back to rugby fitter, faster, stronger Then I left it. So I'm going to win. And that's been my mindset to a lot of things in life. Give it a go. What's the worst that's going to happen? The worst that you go back to what you're doing anyway with a greater knowledge. Yeah, I was going to go back to rug with a greater fitness. So I just started athletics and I gave it a go. And then the first international come up, that was the World Athletics Championships. I made it, I got through to the final. I came eighth, so I was eighth in the world. But to me that's just last in the final. But I just. And then I started to think and that's. I've done this with the level of training I've done. If I commit a little bit more and we got two years to the Paralympic Games in Sydney, I wonder, I wonder if I can make that Paralympic Games. And I made it and I got through to the final. I came away with the bronze, you know, and I was absolutely devastated. If I'd run my perfect race that day in the 400, I would have won a medal.

Yeah. And isn't that funny? A lot of people would be like, wow, I won a bronze. But you're like, I can do better.

Yeah, I wanted the gold and at the time I was in shape, kind of do that. And the guy that won it, phenomenal athlete Heath Francis from Australia, he'd been injured, so that's what opened up the door for me. I mean, he went on to set world records in the four, the two amazing athlete. But he was injured and at the time I was in striking distance of the current world record. I was in striking distance of the goal and I just stuffed up the race, really. And I came back devastated. But then I thought, right now if I really focus on this, I want that gold medal. Danny, just to ask you just to.

Cut in there quickly, but how did you stuff up the race? Like, for someone that doesn't understand, I'm not. I have a rough, good understanding of sport and what have you. But for guys or people listening, how, what did you do? Because you repeat physical fitness, was it that you were your start or you went off too fast or what actually happened?

So mentally, we call it being in the zone in athletics. Mentally, I wasn't in the zone. I remember being on the start line and they introduced you. And that's where races are not won and lost in the race. They're won and lost in the build up to the race when all the athletes are together. For 40 minutes before the race. Imagine what goes on then in the call rooms and on the warmup tracks and places like that. We're actually put together for 40 minutes and we're not allowed anyone else with us. So it's a really stringent and stressful process. You go, and I got out. And then they bring you out the track and they introduce you to the crowd and all that kind of stuff. And you've got camera in front of your face like that when they go, and in lane five representing Great Britain. And the camera's there and then you look up, you're on jumbo screen. And I looked up and I thought, wow, them shorts are skimpy. But that's when you know, right? But that's when you know you're not, your mind is not in the right place. And then we had a full start and I remember walking back thinking, right, refocus, refocus. And then. But the 400 meters is a really precise race and you can't, it's not like any other race. There's no room for or not. It's not like any middle distance race. It's a sprint. You have to do exactly your race. You can't do what anyone else is doing. And we are so precise that pretty much every 50 metres we know exactly what time we've got to hit every 50 metres to be at our perfect race. And I just went off a bit too slow. You're talking quarter of a second if that fraction too slow over the first 50, 100 metres. So when I hit the 200, I had to really start working to get back in the race. And it's just when you do that, you tighten up. So it was about a quarter of a second's worth of mistakes that cost me the gold medal. And I mean, that is bonkers to think about. But in athletics we're working in hundreds of seconds all the time. So it's so precise. But between Sydney and Athens, it become apparent from all my training that actually I had a bit more endurance in my body than I did pure speed. So we started looking at the 800 meters and we had the same mindset with the 800. It's like, give it a go, start doing some more endurance based training. This is my coach, you know, me and my coach, A.O. filola. He sadly passed away a few years ago. But so me and my coach started doing some more endurance based training. And what's the worst that will happen, right? If it doesn't work out, I'll go back to the 400 but I'll be stronger. And that's how we started. We started with the eight and I did my first ever 800 meter race and it just felt right. It was like this is for me because there's room for movement I guess.

If people haven't done athletics as you said the 400 is, I guess, would you say you're. I know you're not sprinting flat out for 400 metres but you're maybe at 90% of your maximum pace.

Yeah, you're close. Yeah.

Whereas the 800 sometimes you see the races where you know it's, it might be a slow start and then the last, I know the last 200 is a, is a flat out sprint and as you said is that when you realized you had a little bit more the endurance side that you thought that it felt better when you went into the 800.

It just felt. I remember my first ever 800 meter race. It was a Watford Open. Anyone in athletics in the south of England will know the Watford Opens and the BMC races, they're famous, they're infamous. And I was in one of them. I remember standing on the start line and there was an athlete I knew, I think it was a basildon athlete from another club near me. I looked him, I went, how does this work then? What do you have to do? And he just went, he just went right, what's going to happen mate? You're going to go through the first 400. Because you're a 400 meter runner. The speed we go through is going to be slower than you can 400 meters. So you're going to be thinking this is a doddle. You're going to think this is easy. Said you're going to get, you're going to go around the bend on the second lap. You're supposed to be thinking I'm going to win this race. He said you're going to get to 600 and then all hell's going to break loose. He said the wheels are going to fall off. He said you're just going to be treading water and you're going to wish you never started the 800 meters. And he was right. For the first four he was right going around the bend. I was thinking this is a doddle man got to the 600. But I didn't get what he said was going to happen. I still felt okay. But the thing I loved about the 800 is the room for movement. So like you said, some races from the gun, flat out, eyeballs out. Some races Go so slow. Then when that bell goes for the second lap, it's a sprint to the finish. And they're hard races and I love all that. And there's a lot of argy bargy and pushing and shoving and jostling for positions. Bit more rugby esque for me. You know, you get to stick your elbows out and push people out of the way and I just really engaged with it and I found the training hard because the endurance training for someone who's got the attention span of a walnut, you're going on the track and you're doing, you're doing sort of 15 reps of 400 meters or we used to go on the track, we do like four times a mile. So you do it four laps which is mile, you know, 30 seconds rest where they took blood and did some analysis and then you do another four laps then they. And for someone like me just that was arduous and it took me a really long time to get used to that kind of training.

Does anybody, does anybody enjoy that kind of. Because I appreciate, it's like, you know, any professional sport people don't see, I think people think that footballers have it easy as well and they don't see the hard training, the hours and hours off the pitch and for you it's off the track. So did you actually, I know you're, you know, you love sport anyway, so did you enjoy most of the training? And obviously that the endurance stuff is that much more taxing on your body.

I loved aspects of training. I mean like many things in life, there's aspects we love, there's aspects we don't love and the bits we don't love, the ones we've got to work on because we're generally not as good at them. So the aspects of training I loved because I'm still doing some 400 meter based training because my, my 800 ability was based on the speed strength, speed endurance it's called. I had from the 400 meters. So I went into the 8 as like a faster runner. Whereas other people come into the eight with the strength of doing the 1500-5000. So you have two different kinds of athlete in there. You have your really endurance looking athlete who can run from forever or you've got the more speed based, the power based athletes and I was more power. So I love that kind, I love that training we used to do. It's called speed endurance training. And you know, it leave you sick for a day. It was to the max and a half hour, 40 minute actual running session. But you all build up to it first and then warm down, up. But the actual 40 minutes of pure, eyeballs out training, I loved it. But then I had to do all the other stuff and I was training. So I was training twice a day, six days a week, 11 months of the year solid. That's the thing about athletics. You're training 99% of the time to race 1 2% at a time. But I loved it. And I love that feeling of being that fit and just thinking what you could achieve. Like you could go on the track and you could absolutely give it 100%. There's nothing left in the tank. You're on the floor, sometimes you're being sick if you push too hard. But then you can train again the next day or even that afternoon, you're ready to go again.

The recovery, I guess, is that much faster. And I don't suppose many people that listen to this will ever really, truly understand what it's like to either work out or train so hard that you feel like you're going to be sick. Because most of us will have that safety mechanism that says, I'm done.

Now we have that as well. And generally you're only going to be sick if you've messed it up. Same thing again. You stuff it up. And when you've got a squad of athletes doing an improper tough session, there's always one that's going to stuff it up. They're going to go off too hard, too fast, too early in the session. And everyone else knows what's going on with them, but they feel great. It's like, hey, I feel great. And everyone else at the back of the pack's going, we know what's coming. And it's the same in races. You watch the 800 meter race, the 400 meter race in an Olympics or params, there's always one athlete that goes off too quick, gets carried away with it, feels great, and there's something in their mind that's going, I know this is wrong, but I feel great. So I'm going to hold it, I'm going to hold it, I'm going to hold it. And then it all goes wrong. And as long as it's not you in the training session, it's really funny when someone else gets it wrong because they're in bits. So we're generally only sick. It's not so much we push ourselves to those limits. Occasionally we do in certain sessions, but it's more about if we've got it slightly wrong or we've eaten too close to training. But we do push ourselves to the max, which is why we get hurt because our bodies are always at that limit on that knife edge.

Well, let's talk about getting it right. And I know you said obviously you won the gold in the 800 and that's it. The Athens 2004.

Yeah, in Athens. Yeah.

So I mean talk to me about firstly what it was like in the build up to that view, you know, in the hours that preceded the race and actually in the race to win what is such a, such an amazing achievement.

I meant the build up to race is tough and like I said, that's where races won a loss. I had the heats the day before and I was first one on the track. So I think it was like 9:30 in the morning. My heat was, which is an early start for a track runner because you up at 5 to start, getting ready to get food in to start, you know, doing your preparation. Everything you need to do, everything's orchestrated that we do. So we plan it, what time we're getting up, what time we're having breakfast, what time we're getting dressed, what time we're leaving the apartment, what time we get in the bus, what time we get into the warm up track, what time we're starting the warm up. Everything's planned so we don't make mistakes. And then often you give other people those plans and they're checked off as you go through because it's just the nerves, right? And then I remember going out onto that track for the heats and the heats is obviously the, is potentially the most nerve wracking part if you have, if you're a potential medal winner because if you go out in the heats, right, you've got no chance and you can easily go out, you can get tripped, you can mess up the race, you can just, you know, you can take, you can be a bit too overconfident and then a couple people hit the front and catch you off guard. So you've got to get through the heats to get in the finals. It's quite nerve wracking. But I remember so going out onto that track had the whole build up. First you go onto the track for your race and There was about 30 of my friends and family in the track, no one else, just 30 of my friends and family in one corner and the whole stadium was empty because they're proper Essex people. So they'd actually flown out that morning. They'd be drinking since they got on the plane at about 3 o' clock.

In the morning they were all very quiet.

They were, yeah, nice and quiet, like flags everywhere, all Union Jacks on their faces. And I didn't even know some of them were going so I couldn't look at them. And I got through that. But then I had the whole day to get through and then the whole next day to get through because my race, my final was in the evening. So the day of your final you're doing stuff like watching films, you go for massages, same thing, everything's orchestrated. Trying to have a nap. You try not to think about the race too much, but you know it's coming, right, because you know that night is going to define you. And then you start the actual proper build up. So you'll start, start getting, you check your kit again because you've only checked it eight times that day, right? Check your numbers again because you've only checked them eight times that day. But then you've got like a process. You go through like, you know, putting on your tracksuit. Every athlete's got their own regimes. Check your kit again and then you gradually start making your way out. So you'll go out, you go to the bus station, there's special bus stations, right? You get on a bus hoping that none of your competitors are on the same bus. Often they are. So you get on the bus and you've got one of your main rivals, three seats in front of you. Then you go to the warm up track and there's all the other athletes around you, your fellow competitors, like your teammates that are coming, going out to do battle. Some are coming back, some have won, they're bouncing off the walls, some have got it wrong and they feel like the whole world's collapsed around them. That could be one of your best friends, right? And you've got them crying in the corner, but you're trying to concentrate on what you're going to do. And then eventually you get to the point where you start your process, you start your warm up, which has been done so many times. Then 40 minutes before that you go to the call room which is where all the athletes are put together. They check your bags, you might have phones, any music devices. You're not allowed, your coach isn't allowed in there. Then they walk you from the warm up track to the main track and you're under the belly of the track, you've got the noise above you. Then eventually they take you out onto the track for your race. So it's a massive build up to the race and really nerve wracking and you get really tired and you can't. Once you're in that process, you can't go anywhere. You can't go to the toilet when you imagine a nervous shower. You got a toilet a lot when you're nervous, right? Because you're in that fight mode. So you're going to get rid of everything.

That'd be a disaster for some of us guys with weak bladders.

Oh, well, I'm the same. Right. You're constantly putting your hand up like that, and then someone takes you to the toilet. I mean, sometimes you use it just to get out of that environment. So it's just like, just get out the loo, please. And all the athletes got their own little ways of looking confident. So, you know, everyone's trying to, you know, peacock it out and look like they're super confident inside you. And then they eventually walk you out on the track and they let you do a couple strides on the track, and then they say, right, get stripped down, ready to race. And that's when you know it's business. You get your tracksuit off, it all goes in the buckets, and then they carry the kit off, and then they start introducing you to the crowd. And that's the point when it really gets real. And you're just like, wow, man. The next two minutes of my life, this is it.

Yeah. And at that point when you, you know, there's that. That moment of silence when they allow you to kind of get crouching down. I know it's the difference between the four and the eight is the four, you're in the blocks, whereas the eight, you're just kind of toe off the line, but right next the line. What's it like in that moment for you when, you know, as you said, you know, like it or not, for someone, it's such a big thing. You know, the Olympics only comes around once every four years and maybe never again. For some people, that. That moment can define you. And winning is one thing, and as you said, falling over is another. And, you know, what's it like for you in those moments before the gun goes off?

I think you're right that there's a silence, that they go to your marks and you go and you shuffle your foot a few times to get in the right position, move it that extra millimetre, everyone's a little bit wobbly because you're in that poised position to go. So we have no set in the eight. It's just on your marks. Bang. And you don't know when the bang is Coming. So you just like. And then, and that silence goes on feels like an eternity. But what you're trying to do then is, all you're trying to do is the race is a process for you because the A can change. You've got your race plan but you're pretty much just thinking about the first 50 meters. So it's just like, and everyone's got the little sayings in their head, you know, so and it's just like bang, go. And for me it's accelerate, accelerate, get up to race speed for the first hunt, what first 50s accelerate and then go around the bend and then when you brake and it's all about the positioning then. So that's when you're going to start jostling for positions. Because in the 800 we start in lanes and then 100 meters in we break and that means we all come into the inside lane. So that's when athletes get tripped over and, and it's, that's all you're thinking about is that first piece. But you just want the gun to go, you just want to get this done. You don't want it, you don't want to enjoy the race, you just. I just want to get to the end of it. I just want to know what the result is.

Yeah. And at what point for you did you know that you'd won the race? Because it's not always when you come over the finish line for, you know, the 400, I guess. Well, I guess if you broke it down 100 metres, you know, it's a flat out sprint and it's very hard if you've got guys right next to you because you know it's a millimetres. But I guess in the 800 you can build that gap as the distances go on. So at what point did you think I've done this?

To be honest, never. Because I think if you get to that point, that's the fine line that you tread as an athlete between confidence and arrogance. It's a bit different if you're 60 meters ahead. But my race, I meant when you watch my race, the pack was still together with 150 meters to go. The whole pack, eight athletes in a pack. Anyone can strike at any time. And the Algerians struck with about 150, 125 meters to go. And I was sitting at the front, I wasn't leading, I had another athlete next to me because that was my plan, that two of us would sit at the front and I managed to make that happen. So there was a long way Round for anyone else. And this Algerian suddenly went boom, around the outside. Luckily, I was ready. I was ready for it and I was just about to go myself. But it's not like you go into a sudden sprint, you wind up, you start winding it up. So I wound it up and then I just had enough that he sort of hit the front, but then I hit it even harder and I took out a space. But then that home straight is longer than the silence before the gun. I mean, that home straight, if you're in the lead, goes on forever because you are just hoping and praying and you can't do any more, right? You can't get any faster because you've given everything. You're just trying to hold as much speed and form. We call it hold form in running, right? Just still trying to look good. But it's not about looking good, it's about. Because that's how we perform best. But you're just trying to. But you can hear, you can hear the crowd, you can hear the other athlete, you can hear them breathing behind you and you hear their feet and you just, you know they're coming and you're just holding on, holding on, holding on, praying for that finish line. And then. Yeah, and then eventually you get to the line. But what was that, I mean, when.

I was gonna say, what was that moment like when you. Because I guess you're. You're physically and maybe mentally exhausted. Even though it's a short race, you know, it's. It's in comparison to a long. Long distance, something. But you know, you've. It's mentally and physically hugely taxing. What's that moment like once you've kind of looked up and you know you've done it?

For me, it was relief because the pressure was on for me to do it. You know, it's not like I knew I'd win the race, but had the potential to win the race. And so the way I would. I look at it is if somebody else, somebody had to beat me, they had to have a better race than me. And all I can do then is if someone runs the perfect race, breaks the world record, all I can do is shake their hand and go, wow, you had a great race today, mate. So for me, it was a mass. It was just. I had the world record when I went into. But like in the eight, you don't know what's gonna happen in an eight. So it's just relief. It was relief that I'd actually done it. And it's almost a relief followed by the exhaustion very quickly. But the strange thing for me was my friends and family were just there, right. So I went over to them once. I sort of hugged a few of the athletes, went over to them, but you can't get to them because there's the barrier and it's almost like a moat that goes around the outside. It's not really. But, you know, you can't get to them. They threw me a flag and then. And I got ushered off to go and do the lap of honour. And I was great when I was with my friends, but then there's 35,000 other people in the stadium. You're doing the lap of honor. And apart from the odd bits where you might see someone you know, but anyone who's come to watch me. So all the team officials, all the man, everyone, all my teammates, the eight you watch the start and finish, they're all going to go to the start and finish pens because that's where they're going to see most of the action. So there's no one around the back of the. So you guarantee. And it's people you don't know. And it's almost like a lonely place because you're just waving them. And you prepare for every aspect of your race. You can't prepare for how you're going to feel if you win or lose. And that's. I found that really strange. And then when it's all you've done, your lap of honour, eventually, if you take too long, you get ushered off the track. Track. Because the next race has got to go.

Get off.

And then. Yeah, and then. But then I didn't get to go to my family. It was straight into the process then of the medal ceremony. And that's not quick. You have to go through a whole process to get to that. I think we did enough. And so we have to get our accreditation back. They check you off that you're the right person that's going to the medal ceremony, then you get taken off. And then I think we went through doping control as well, so we had to go through drugs testing. So you have to go and do all your samples and all the paper that goes with that. And then there's the three of you in the room just waiting to be called out. And by this stage, you've got your tracksuits back on and, you know, you're trying to do your hair back and. And you're just getting ready to go out for the medal ceremony.

Can I imagine what that must be like when you, you know, as you Say, even the prep, but when you're going up and actually getting your gold medal.

It'S, it's, it's so surreal and it's like. It's one of those things. Every athlete deals with it differently. And I think, for me, I like being with people I know I'm quite an extroverted person. You know, what I do for a living, I stand on stages, I speak in front of cameras. But I'm also quite introverted. I like to be with people I know. So I just wanted to get back to the people I know because I still hadn't said my mum and dad were over there. I could. Haven't got to them. My brother was there, best mates were there and I hadn't even got to them yet. So I enjoyed the medal ceremony. But you just want that bit because that's actually the bit like when you. So then you finish the medal ceremony, then you go trying to make your way back to where your friends and family are. But of course, everyone's seen you win a medal, so anyone that's in the stadium now is coming to you for autographs, photographs, and all you want to do is get to your friends and family. And then eventually I made it back an hour and a half later, finally got back to my friends and family. And that, that was the moment. That was the moment you just go, wow, you know when you hug your mum for the first time, or my coach come up, gave me a big hug and he went, you've done it. That, that. That's the bit.

How emotional were you at that point? Because you said you've had the sudden hit of winning the race, but then you've kind of had that, you know, huge gap where you're just kind of waiting in this medal ceremony. So to actually get. Sounds corny, but, you know, get into the arms of your mum or your coach, what was that like? Was it a different feeling that came back to you?

Yeah, that's. That's the emotional side of it, I think, because that's, you know, when your mum and your dad, that's. You think, well, they've been through with me. I mean, I was bad enough when I was a kid. That was a handful growing up, so. And then. And then to have me losing my arm in, you know, that they got a phone call at 4 o' clock in the morning when I lost my arm, you know, they was in England, I was in Australia. 36 hours later, they was in Australia. From being asleep in bed to getting off an airplane in Australia. And at that time that, you know, the surgeons can't tell my mum and dad exactly how bad I was. They just say, you know, your son's been involved in a very serious accident. You think you need to come to Australia. So they've gone through all that and then all the, you know, the rehab and the ups and downs I've gone through. So to get to that stage for them, I think was massive because they just know you've done it and you've got the bit with a coach, you know, the coach has gone through so much with you and Ao, you know, anyone in athletics knows Ayo for Lola, he was larger than life and he almost used to run the races with you. You know, he went through the emotions of a race and he was there, he was there with me and he's just like those kind of things. That's what made it. That's what made it the perfect night. The race was amazing. Getting the medal I dreamt of. But the medal is a piece of metal, right? The medal isn't. The memories. The memories are getting to your friends afterwards.

The price list.

Yeah. Pretty cool party that night, I bet.

Well, I think because I love athletics and I love sport and rugby, football, etcetera, I could talk about that side of it for hours. But just going on, I mean, the new chapter of life, obviously, once you retired, was going into speaking and performance and keynote speeches, presentations. I mean, there's kind of so many strings to your bow and one of the points is I know your. Let's call your teammate now is Andy Cohen, Ray, who we were very lucky to have to speak at one of our whole Man Academy events. And I'll say this about him, we owe him a huge debt of gratitude because we originally had Mick Compton, who's the ex England cricketer who was supposed to be speaking that day, as well as Andy, but, excuse me, Nick hurt his neck the night before and I just arrived in London and got a message saying, Nick's not coming, so, you know, you've got a big slot to fill. And when I spoke to Andy, he was like, whatever, I'll speak for 24 hours if you want, I've got enough. And boy, he was amazing. So I just wondered, well, firstly, what we'd love to do is get you and Andy on together at some point to talk more about the business that you do. Because that's a whole different podcasts in itself. But for you, your new career of going into the, you know, keynote speeches, presentations, what was that like for you?

I mean, I started out many people. I've been keynote speaking for 20 years. And I started out, like, when I. When I first made it onto the global athletic scene and was making the papers and things like that, just local schools and you just start getting asked to do that and. And I started getting asked to go further and further afield and I was still training at time. Being an athlete was my job. Keynote speaking went on the side of it, but I saw it as a way of just relieving some of the pressure of being an athlete. So it takes your mind off it. But then I remember I was going to Manchester one day and I was just thinking, why am I doing. They're not even paying my petrol. I'm doing this for free. And I'm getting asked to do more and more and more and more and more, so I'm obviously doing something right. I thought, I wonder if I can earn a living out of this? And I met a speaking agency through a couple of other Paralympians. And I remember getting my first ever paid speaking job was to the local Women's Institute. I think I got 50 quid to go along and speak at one of their lunches. Great sandwiches. That was the start of it. And then alongside that, I was doing. I was getting more corporate stuff and I was doing more and more and more. Who would have known it? The guy that all his school reports said if Danny could stop speaking, he'd actually get somewhere in life, would actually eventually end up doing a job that involves him speaking. And it just grew and grew and grew. And speaking is organic, right? So someone will see you at an event and they think, I have to have this guy for my event. And then they'll take you to their event and then someone there takes you to their event and it just grows and it grows and it grows and I love it. I absolutely love keynote speaking. I've built a presentation. It's all around overcoming hurdles in life and how we adapt and how we can be resilient and then how we learn and how we can be successful. And built my own models on how to be successful. With a lot of humor stories of being shark display divers and all the daft stuff I've done in my life, but I really enjoy it. And for me, it's about empowering people to realize that they can achieve their dreams and it doesn't matter how big their dreams are sometimes it's not unrealistic, but we can achieve things and it's how we do it. It's using the mindset of sport to create other stuff. Because in sport, little steps we take.

Well, you just hit on something which I know is part of your, let's call it, toolkit, is being a master storyteller. And I know for a lot of people, you know, sometimes when you're trying to get a point across, our creative director, Scott McArthur, who does a lot of public and keynote speaking and corporate as well, always has instilled in me the importance of getting a message across through a story, which helps people maybe filter it and understand it. And it's about captivating your audience. And at what point did you realize you were a good storyteller or the importance of telling stories?

I think, as you can tell from the podcast, I can tell a good yarn. And I've always got a story for something. I'm one of those. But the storytelling is, for me, for some people, speaking is just, you know, it's just speaking. Right. They just go and do it. And I'm not your stereotypical sports speaker. She's not about. I did this one that did this one that did this one. That there's the highs, the lows, there's everything in there. It's about taking people on the journey of life is like, really. And then putting the learnings behind it and the reasons that I did stuff behind it. But the stories bring it to life. So that's how me and Andy work. So a lot of stuff we do is we're using the science that sits behind how we create high performance teams, but we're using the stories to bring it to life, to make people realize how you can implement this stuff and how it can be successful. And that's what I do. And that's, you know, some of it storytelling that I do on stage, some of it is more based around how we can actually, if we use certain mindsets, we can achieve what we're really aiming for.

Well, I was just thinking about that. I mean, there's so much, again, we could do a whole podcast just about mindset, which I think, you know, people listening would be able to take great value out of. I know one of your presentations is built around was it the five key elements of success or elements to success. But would you be able to just. Even if kind of just break that down a little bit for us so people could understand a bit more about that?

Yeah. So I looked at what. What it was that made me. This was after I retired. So I looked at what it was that made me successful in my career sometimes and then not so others. Right. So why are some athletes successful and others not? So even though you're doing the same stuff, right, athletes do exactly the same training sessions and to get to a Paralympic final, we've all got the best potential to win, we're all good enough. And then you look at businesses. So I've worked with businesses all over the world implementing high performance and helping them understand what it looks like. And so why is it one business is more successful than others when they're doing perceiving the same thing? So it got me thinking, I broke it down to what I call the five key elements. So I start off with a goal and everyone understands goals. I do a whole session on this, but, you know, very briefly the goals. But for me, a goal is words. So we can all say stuff, right? You can say, you know, I want to make my business a multi billion pound business and sell it within five years. I don't want to be CEO of the company I work in. You know, I want to play off scratching golf, I want to drive a Ferrari. You know, it just, they're words. For me, it's the second part of the five key elements is the reason, the why, that's the most important thing. So for me, being number one in the world, which was my goal, wanted to keep it simple. It was not about just being able to say, I'm number one in the world, it was about the accolade. It was about when I looked at the other athletes that held that ranking and the guy that had it before me was Kona Omar from the Ivory coast and he had the world record when he was 18 years old. Formidable athlete. And bear in mind, he was from the Ivory Coast. He didn't have the facilities and the support network of professional support network that I had. He was training like dirt tracks and things like that. And I'm just thinking, wow, that is a proper athlete. So whenever you line up on the track, it's almost like the other athletes feared and respected him in equal measure. And I wanted to be that athlete, you know, that was feared and respected. So I knew what, but I most importantly understood why. And then I talk about how you have to plan the journey. You can't just say, I'll get there. Somehow we plan that journey and in sport is built around the Olympic Paralympic cycle, the four year cycle. And then it's how we broke it down every year into kind of what I had to achieve on each year. And then we looked at, then I look at the team, building the team around you. Not just the professional team, though, Also your support network, because they're really important. Because for me, you know, and that's what my keynote is all about. It's not. And that's what I'm very honest about. You know, my life may sound rosy, but it's had its lows. It's had its highs. Sport brings a lot of lows as well. It's not been a plain sailing. I've had ups and downs like everybody, and I'm open about them. So we build this network around. You have your professional team, which we have a lot of people now in sport, but then you've got your family and your friends because, you know, life is not always kind. And when life's not kind, sometimes we need that arm around our shoulder or the kick up the ass that we all need every now and again. Only someone close can give that to you. Only someone close can give you that kick up the ass and say, wait, get your head out the sand, come on. And then I look at the magic really is the incremental gain. So it's how we put these little stepping stones in place to get to where we want to get to. And I look at my journey for that and I talk about how I had to be forced when I sat down with AO and we talked about that four year journey to get me to Athens. We worked hard. I needed to be about four seconds faster. And four seconds to anybody is not long, but to a track athlete, it's an eternity because it's about 30 meters to me on the track. And the mindset is. Imagine the mindset like, so you've just run the fastest ever race. You're in a puddle on the floor and your coach comes up and goes, hey, Dan, that's brilliant, mate. But any chance you could find an extra 30 meters? Yeah, it just doesn't work like that. You're out. I've just run the fastest I've ever run in my life. Where do I find 30 meters? I'm knackered.

Yeah.

So we broke it down and it was, it was one second a year. And as I alluded to, one second is a big chunk of time. Let me break it down again.

I guess that helps your mindset, doesn't it? Instead of saying, we need to find the whole amount, you know, let's just find this and then this.

And then we got it down. So we got it down to quarter of a second every three months.

Brilliant.

So that's all we had to focus on was quarter of a second every 12 weeks. Every single. And that's the difference, and that's the mindset that sports people have is every single day I went to training and that was like 12 to 14 sessions a week. I tried to do it better than I did it the time before. Now, you're not going to be successful every day, but that is the mindset. You'll never see an athlete that goes into a training session and go, you know, I smashed that session last week. I want to do exactly the same or worse today. It's always about I want to be better or going to a race. You know, I broke the world record last week. Guess what? I'm going to run exactly the same time today. It's not, it's about I want to be better. You're not going to achieve it every day. But the mindset is, how can I be 1% better? How can I be a hundredth of a second faster? And it's not always about working harder, it's about working smarter. And that's how we do it. It's just constantly chipping away, chipping away with those, those little goals we aim along the way.

Well, I think you've made the analogies to do with sport as well, but you've made a good point there about the importance of, as you say, having a coach or having a mentor or someone in your corner that firstly is going to give you encouragement and guidance, but also kick you up the ass when maybe you're, you know, naturally we're all going to have days where motivation isn't at the highest level. And I wonder if you, since you moved into the business, is that part of you where you're helping companies? Do you think a lot of them, that's what they need is someone, an external person like yourself to give them a kick up the ass. But help with the planning.

Sometimes. Yeah, it's the reminder of. It's the everyday. It's the everyday that's going to get you the success in the long run. So it's the being better every day. So we come in so sport, we can we win. You know, I have to lose a lot of races to win a race, but I'm not losing races. I'm learning all the time. And it's that mindset. So it's about, in business, if you've had a great success in business, then it's about you don't sit on that. It's about how can we be better? Because what happened is other people will catch you up and go past you because they'll just learn from what you're doing. But also if you've had a bad time in business, you know, you don't just forget about it and say, look, let's just park that. That never happened. Or if you have a bad day, you know, something goes wrong for you personally in the world of business, you don't just say, let's forget about today, that never happened. Tomorrow's another day. Yes, you do move on. But you can learn from it. There's stuff you can learn and that's what we take into business. And we take that mindset of sport which is being 1% better every day, but also the process of sport as well. Because, you know, we put everything in place to be able to perform on the big stage. Every single element has to be perfect for us to be able to deliver. We leave no stone unturned in the build up to a race. So for races, my coach would have put me into races before Athens and he would have said, right, Dan, you're at the back today. Don't want you anywhere else but the back of that race. And then with 150 meters to go, I want to see if you can get as far up that pack as you can.

Brilliant.

Next race you go. Yeah, next race, go from the start. Go from the gun, mate. I want to see you eyeballs out and I want to see you blow up at 600 meters and I want to see you try and hang on so you learn what it's like.

How hard was that? I won't fall in the middle. What's that like though? Because you know, you know you've got your own ability and to kind of say it obviously a bit like life. It, you know, sometimes it, it doesn't necessarily matter about the result of that moment of that race. It's about just kind of mixing up and testing yourself. And what would that like? What would that be like? Sorry? In a race when you are told just stay at the front and when you blow up at 600, doesn't matter.

It's difficult because my mindset to race is different to that. But that's where the you said about it's important to have a coach. And that's the thing about like the coach that I had ao was it's the trust. It's that trust and it's that belief that you both have in each other. Because I remember in 2002, the World Championships, I came fourth in the 400 and fourth in the 800, which isn't that bad, right? Fourth in the world in two races. But my funding was Based on me winning medals, I lost all my funding. It's brutal sport, you know, it's not based on what you did two years ago, based on what you can do next year. So I lost all my funding. So there goes all my support network and there goes some of the belief in me as well. You know, can I do this? How am I going to get back? And I remember my mum and dad sitting me down and going, look, we love ao. He is an amazing guy. But sometimes in sport you got to make a decision. They just said, do you need to make some changes then? Do you need to train with a different group, new coach? You know, there wasn't saying that I had to leave ao. They were just asking me the questions because I'd underperformed. And I was just like, no, AO is the man. You know, this is a transition period. We're changing events and I just. This one didn't work out, but we'll get it right. Because I just knew, I just knew that there was something about him that could get me to where I wanted to get to. And it wasn't just about the training sessions because, you know, athletes all around the world do the same kind of training. It's something special about the coach that brings something out of you.

I think that's, you know, going back to the. Either the athletic side, but going back to the business side again. I know that business coaching has maybe been around for years, but it wasn't labeled as anything. Whereas now in a business, coaches and I think personal coach as well, can really make a huge difference to people. Because often it's. It's kind of calling out the bullshit when people will be making excuses to why they haven't taken those, as you said, incremental steps and just saying, you know, no one's saying it's easy and especially for yourself as an athlete or. Back then it was, it was the hard hours, it's the long hours. Building anything successful in life. What we're understanding and trying to help the guys for the whole man academy understand is it does take sweat, tears, blood, effort, swear words, family time may be taken away. And I wonder with you, with the business, I guess you. It's about, what's the word? Like building exceptional results. And for you, when you're working with the business, what is the first thing you do? Is it trying to break down all those five elements for them?

Well, I mean, we work slightly differently. When I work with Andy 14.4 performance, that still sits behind it, but we have our own performance model. We work to as well. And our performance model is all based around building a team. Because you've got to get the team right, you've got to get everyone communicating together, you've got to get everyone buying into the same dream, the same goal. You got to get, you got to create. So we look at all that, we look at a lot of language and it's how we communicate with each other, how we talk to each other, how we bring the right attitudes to work. Because I had to turn up to training with the right attitude, I had to have the right mental approach. You know, my internal language as an athlete, my internal dialect has to be positive. It's no good. If I'm turning up to training, going, I'm really tired today, I can't be bothered to do this training session because if I start have that going on inside my head, that's going to come out my mouth, it's going to come out my body language. My coach is going to know that straight away. And guess what? I'm going to get what I'm thinking, you know, if I'm thinking negatively, I'm going to get negative results.

It's going to come out in your result.

Yeah. So we work with that, with the teams that we start off with that, that part, how they communicate with each other and themselves. And then we start looking at the culture and environment they create. And of course that is, you know, so. And that's really important. We look at the differences between it. But you've got to get, you've got to have the right culture within a business. You know, it's got to be a thriving business. It's got to be a place people want to come to, to work, to thrive, to succeed, you know, and that the culture is kind of inbred with a business. It's organic, it grows with it. So we look at that and how it that specifically for that business. Then we look at the environment they're in. You know, that's the thing you can change a little bit sometimes to create a better environment for them. And then we start looking at the performance, then we really get into performance. Once we've got those bits right, we can start looking at the performance. And that's where we look at not just physical, like how we deliver, but the mental side of it as well. Because as a sports person, it's no good being physically fit if you're not mentally fit as well. So we look at the mental and the physical performance of the people within the team and, you know, and with Andy's story as well. Everyone, you know, people have heard it, know it's a really hard story to listen to, but it happened, it was real. You know, just like I carried an arm out of a car and Andy went through the trauma he went through in his life like many people have, but he's come out the other side. So it's the lessons that he's learned but so that we look at the mental side of the business. But it's not just about mental health, it's about performance as well. People have to be mentally fit to be able to perform. So. But in amongst that is of course mental health. Because if people are going through trauma and we're not helping and supporting them, then they're going to underperform in business and you're going to end up with someone who's very ill or off work, stress related illness. That's not good for the business, but most importantly, it's not good for them. And then we start looking at the results side of it. So we go through a whole process with the team and we do that in many ways. We do that either in high impact conference events or we do that over a long period of time where we work with the business. And of course we, like many people, have had to change now. Yeah, me and Andy work. Our business model is one thing and it is, we work together. We're always together. Like you never see us apart. Both our respective partners are convinced me and Andy are having an affair. We're always on the phone, we're always chatting.

You can tell us, you know, it's a, it's, we're very open here.

Yeah.

I tell you why I love that. I think Andy's great. You know, obviously I'm lucky enough to meet you a couple of times and we wouldn't invite you on the podcast if we didn't think you had huge value to give. And talking of giving value and adapting, you started doing the Friday virtual lunch, which, you know, I think is a great idea. And it's similar to us with the zoom calls that we're doing on Thursday nights, just as an excuse to get guys together. So I just wonder if you could tell us a bit, a bit about the, about the virtual lunch and how it's been kind of going well.

We, like many people, as soon as we were shut down, realized that we wasn't gonna be able to deliver the same way we could. So we are now creating, we've got our virtual programs almost ready to go now. We've been creating virtual online Programs. We've got one for education which we're just about to launch as well. That's just the news for you. So we're looking at the world of education, but we're also got our business side which is nearly ready to go as well. So we're creating the programs we normally deliver and turning them into a virtual offering. But that's one aspect of it and that was going to take time. But one thing, as I mentioned, how we work, it's about how we communicate with each other. It's about connectivity. And the one thing, the thing that being shut down has taken away is that human contact that we have. So when we're, we don't just go to work just to work. You know, you get people go to work to be part of an environment and a culture. So part of that culture is the people there. You're going to get on with people you don't, the people you do. So you know those chats around the coffee machine or when you walk out to get some lunch and just catching up and that's taken away from people. So we just wanted to put that back. So we put in the Virtual Lunch Club and it's just, it wasn't, it's not networking, it's not selling, it's just a chance for people to build up rapport with each other, build relationships and have conversations and normal conversations that we would have every day. So we talk work related stuff, we talk, you know, how people are coping, what people are doing. But then there's this general conversation in there as well. The stuff that we would normally have at work that we're not having now because we're sitting isolated in our dining rooms, in our kitchens, wherever we can find a space big enough to sit with a laptop, you know, and do some work. And that's what the Virtual Lunch Club was born out of.

I think it's a great idea. And I know that, you know, for most people, their life has obviously changed because of lockdown. You know, for the majority of people are working from home. And maybe a lot of those people didn't have a dedicated workspace. You know, I was lucky I had an office. But even so that was actually very close to where the hallway is where our little kids are. So I can't be doing, you know, these, these podcast interviews. What we're trying to maintain a level of professionalism. And then having squeaky bums shouting at the door and banging on the door, wanting to show you their Tyrannosaurus rex or something that's where for a lot of people, I think it's a bit of. It's support and escapism, being able to jump on these chords and see some different faces. But not, as you said, it's not about networking. We've had one steak tutorial where a guy taught us how to cook the perfect steak. Last week we had one all about changing your state. Tonight we've got one by the chap who wrote the Art of Sleeping. He's talking all about super sleep, and yet it's about just trying to do something different and create value for people who might not be seeing. Also another face all day.

Yeah, I mean, that's the important part of. Is about putting some normality back into life. It's about. So one of my family members, actually, I got him on the radio today. So he's 78. He's a widower. He's got. He's my dad's cousin. He's going through chemotherapy at the minute. He's doing his back garden marathon. Right, right. So he has been running a mile every day whilst going through chemotherapy. And he's a real Essex character, proper character, used to work at Falls. So he does this mile in his garden every day, but around that, he does podcasts every day for his families to keep them up to date. He's making films. There's films of him running. You know, they've done something like the theme of Benny Hill and all speeded up. They've done black and white ones to like, 50s style. But for him, like, he's a widower. He. He goes down the pub most days, not because he's a big drinker, but for social. He gonna have some food down there, catch up with some friends, just as a pint, you know, couple of hours of his life, and then he comes home. He's had all that taken away from him. So he's doing all this stuff now to keep himself connected. He's 78 years old. He's just learning how to use Facebook. He did his first radio interview today, and that's what it's about. So some people have had all connectivity taken away from them. So putting stuff back, like the sessions you're running, like the lunch clubs we're doing, it just gives people that break. And we are. It does become quite intense as many people are finding out, being in this one space, kids running around. My partner's downstairs in our dining rooms. We haven't got an office, but then I've got to record some content after lunch today for our program. So I'VE got to kick her out the dining room because that's the place to do that. And it's just everyone's going through this, so it's just that chance to step away from that.

Just try and adapt, isn't it? At the moment? Talking of. I appreciate your time, so we'll wrap up fairly quickly. But just, you know, on the. One of the main things for the whole man Academy was generally that guys didn't and don't get together to talk, which obviously we're doing on podcasts, we're providing platforms like you are. Who have you talked to over the years when things have been challenging? And why don't you think guys get together much to talk?

That's a tough question. I think guys, I think generally we are less inclined to open up because you have the fear of being judged. So it's very rare a guy's gonna phone another guy and say, look, I'm really struggling today. You know, my head's not in a good place, or you got to be pretty close with someone to do that. Me and Andy have, because of Andy's journey. And now I know me and Andy have real honesty with each other. Like, if we're not feeling it, we'll tell it. We'll tell each other. But I never really. Never really did that when I was younger. And, you know, you don't. You don't phone people up, but you had to learn the honesty in athletics because, you know, had to tell your coach when you weren't feeling it because you turned up to train it and actually to be honest after. And I put it in my. My book, when I wrote my book, that it was through that process that I realized that AI was more than my athletics coach, because when we was coach an athlete, that's what he was, right? And sometimes I resented him a lot. But I think we both. We both mellowed as we got older. He had children, I had children, so we had a lot in common. So I used to talk to him a lot. I was going through quite a tough time in my life. You know, marriage gone and stuff like that. And so I used to phone him up and chat to him pretty much. So without even realizing it, thinking about it, probably him, he was the guy because he'd become. And we were sort of building a friendship then and then. So it would have been him. But I think it's guys, we don't talk, we don't open up, and we don't have those conversations. But I think also because we're more Jovial. I'm not saying we're more fun than women, but we tend to treat life more jovially, don't we? If something bad happens, we'll make a poorly judged joke about it generally and then just move on. And that's kind of our way of dealing with it.

It's a good answer. And again, we'd love to get yourself and Andy on together, which I think is. That's why we haven't touched too much on your business side, because I think you and Andy together. I've met Andy and yourself, and it'll be a powerful combination at some point, if we can. If we can do that. Just to finish up. There's been lots and lots of different bits that people can take away from the podcast, which I think is primarily the reason why we're doing it, apart from the fact that I just love sitting, chatting to interesting people. But just a couple of quick fire questions for you. One is, what was Celebrity MasterChef like?

Intense. Really intense. Like more intense than it even looks on the telly. That's why people make mistakes. But great, great fun. And in case anyone knows, I'm from Essex, I've called.

I got an apron, naturally. Is it the one of a naked woman or is it something a bit more sporty?

Oh, no, I've got the MasterChef one, the proper one. The first question I asked when I went in now, I said, do we get to keep the aprons? And they said, hell, no, this is the BBC. Right. Of course it is. In my mind, as the person was telling me, we can't keep the aprons, there was that voice in my head going, oh, yes, we can.

I'm keeping it. I guess that's the main reason you went on it. Did it improve you as a chef?

Massively, because it made me think about food. I love food. I love the flavors of food. And it made me think about how we interact with food and how we cook. And you have to. You have to. I had an athlete's mindset for that. I worked really hard for those shows. I meant before, you know, they're filmed days apart. But even the build up to it, I was cooking every day, practicing the dishes that I was going to prepare. I did raka lamb for my first dish. I did so many racks of lamb before that. I used to go to butchers regularly. Rack of lamb? Yeah, rack of lamb.

I'll take the lot.

Yeah, yeah. But it was a fantastic experience. It really was. And I was gutted. I went out the quarterfinal stage and went out because I did a dish that wasn't good enough and still beat myself up now about it because I'm competitive. And I think, right, you know, if I hadn't done that dish, if I'd done something different, maybe I would have got through.

Isn't that nice, though? Again, going back to. I spoke very late last night on a podcast about the importance of continually testing yourself, you know, learning and putting yourself out of your comfort zone in a situation where you're going to test yourself and that life, you know, can be interesting and give you new experiences and new learnings. My next question was actually, I think you've just answered it previously, which was who are the, who are your heroes growing up? I mean, I think, I know you said about, if you talk about the athletic side, you had your Steve Cram and Seb Ko, anybody else who we wouldn't have heard of, who was one of your heroes growing up?

Well, actually, I never had. I mean, I spoke about Cram and Vexa grow up watching them, and I wanted, you know, I wanted to emulate what they could do. So I was an athlete at the time, but I never wanted to be him. I've never wanted to be anybody. I've only ever wanted to be the best version of myself I can be, because that's the point of trying to be someone else. But the people that inspired me, and they still do, are the people that do things just because. So if I think about being an athlete, I got to live the life of a professional athlete. We used to go to America for eight weeks and train in California. We spent six weeks in Australia training in Melbourne. We trained with Cathy Freeman out in Melbourne. You know, I just trained in America with all the top American athletes and athletes from wherever. Just, you know, going down the track in California in the blazing sunshine and spending a couple of hours training heaven, I got to do that. But there's people that trained just as hard as me, if not harder sometimes, that are never going to make even county level athlete or something like that. But they do it just because there's people in the world of football, right, that train really hard and they won't even make the school team. They can't get in the school team, but they train harder than all the kids that are in the school team. But they train harder because they love it. And one aspect of my training was the gym, the weights, because I couldn't do the kind of weight, I couldn't do the big power weights anymore. Like I couldn't do the you know, the Olympic lifts and that I was stuck on the machines doing cleans and jerks or trying to replicate cleans and jerks. And it's just boring for me. I hated being in the gym. I loved being outside. So for 40 minutes twice a week, all I did was moan, whinge, complain because I was in the gym. But then you look around the gym and there's people in there that are doing it just because. Just because they want to get a six pack for the summer. Just because the doctor said if they don't shed a few pounds, they're in trouble. Just because they want to live a healthier life and they're putting in the same effort, if not more. Those are the people that inspire me, people who do it for the love of it.

Great answer. We should all meditate on that one. And I always say on podcasts, when you get a good moment is rewind it back 30 seconds and listen to it again and actually think about it and how you could maybe apply some of that thought process to your life. Last question would be, what advice to a man would you give so he could do life better?

For me, I'd have advice to a man. Well, I think it's live that life where it's, how can I be better every day? What can I do better than I did yesterday? And it doesn't mean we're always striving for success. It's just like, look at the things we did. Just it didn't happen. I improve on it. And I think it's the open, and it's open and honesty. Be honest about how you feel at the time. You know, be honest to yourself, and then be honest to the people around you, because that's how. Because, you know, if we're not feeling great, we're gonna. We're gonna portray certain behaviors, and if we haven't told people how we feel that day, those behaviors are just gonna come across as, oh, is he an ass? You know, so that's how me and Andy work. You know, if Andy will tell me sometimes, he said, look, Dan, I'm not feeling it today. You know, and. Or vice versa. You know, Andy, I'm just. Especially in this current. Andy, I'm struggling today. You know, me and Andy have put off doing things we're supposed to do, like some of our recordings we're doing for our program. We put off some days just because one of us is not in the right frame of mind to do it. Yeah, but if I did it, like, for example, if I was in the right frame of mind. And I just did it half heartedly. And he's going to be on. He can't even give me a kick because he's 50 miles away. He's going to be sitting there thinking, why am I wasting my time? This idiot's not even interested.

Yeah.

If I hadn't told him why. Yeah. And it's just that he says live your life like trying to improve, trying to look at how we can be better than we was yesterday in certain areas of our lives and just be very conscious. Listen to what's going on in your head. Be honest with yourself.

Lovely answer. Question. If people listening think that you could be. Not if, but they should know that you could be really useful for their business and maybe looking to book you as a speaker or just get hold of you and ask these questions. What's the best way? I know you've got websites. What for you is the best way they could get hold of you?

Email me is the easiest way. It's infoannycrates.co.uk for any of the speaking work and of course we've got the 1404 one as well which is 1404 performance.com so info@1404performance.com. Pretty simple. Just one thing there, the 1404. Many people ask us why 1404. It's because there's two reasons. I always wanted a performance business. When I was doing keynote speaking I'd love to have a performance business. I had the concept in my head it would be Beyond Limits. I know there is a lot of companies called beyond but I Beyond Limits in my head I thought what an amazing business name. And I told my brother I had this name, I wanted this name. My brother set up an absaling business. My brother does rope access. He set up a business called Beyond Limits UK before I ever set up a business. So he's nicked my business name. So me and Andy was thinking of a business name. We couldn't think of anything and he just. 1404 is my race number. 1404 performance. And we thought, wow, that's pretty cool.

That's good because at least it means something.

And it means something and people talk. People ask the question why 1404? That's what a business name should be about. It evokes something in people. So I bring the 1404. Andy brings the performance.

I like it. I'm guessing you bring a bit of performance to it as well. I know from reading. Well again, I always think what I love about these podcasts is firstly my Opportunity to sit and chat to interesting people who have got great life stories and great lessons for people to learn. And sometimes the hardest thing is what to leave out because there's so much more we could go into. But yeah, we'd love to get you on at some point a joint podcast, which you've not done before with Andy and yourself, to talk all about business and performance, which I think would be fantastic. But in the meantime, just as firstly say thank you for spending the time this morning to talk to us. I know you're busy, but also to acknowledge. It's great, but to acknowledge you for the work you're doing because, you know, forgetting the fact that you've been a great athlete and provided a huge experience when you won the gold for, let's say, the nation, but also working on the business side of the performance now, it's. We all think it's about doing good in the world and helping people do things better or men do life better.

Yeah, I mean, that's what it's about for us. It's about helping people perform at a higher level. And that doesn't necessarily mean they want to be international athletes. It could be anything in your life. I mean, that's, you know, I like to set off. I do personal coaching and I do business coaching with people. And that's all that is about. It's just helping elevate people to another level, just assisting them to get there, you know, and that's what we do in businesses. We go into businesses, we don't know the business, we know that we know people, so we know how to get the best out of people. And we, and I use all that knowledge, you know, I've been part of high performing teams. I've been part of some of the, you know, the highest performing teams in the world. British Athletics, British Paramedics Association. I've worked with the best athletes in the world. I mentioned earlier, athletes work together, we learn from each other. Athletes don't hide stuff from each other. That's why you see squads. Mo Farah does it. He trains with all these rivals. We went out. My training partner was Donna Fraser. She came fourth in the Sydney Olympics in the 400 meters in the big Cathy Freeman race. If anyone remembers that Donna was fourth in that race, guess who we trained with? We trained with Cathy Freeman. Not because you're trying to nickel their training, but you just feel if you all train together, then you move further afield and you leave the others behind. And that's the lesson we try to take, learn from Other people. Learn from other people in your business. Business. Learn from other businesses. See what they're doing, talk to people, find out. Because that's how we did it in athletics. Coaches all speak to each other.

That's a really important lesson, I think, to end on, as you say, is learning from each other and also not being too worried to allow people in to learn from you as well, because maybe you'll pick something up from them. Are you doing your. This is going to go on Friday, but are you going to continue doing your Friday lunches at the moment until lockdown ends or something?

Yeah, we've committed to it. So every Friday we do our lunch. Depends on, you know, what's going on in the world and what other people are doing. It depends how many we get on it. But we've got a core of people now that are on every single one. So they're building up a relationship. They've never met each other, but they're starting to build that relationship. So me and Andy don't have to host them anymore. We're just part of it. We sit back and we press play and we let it go. Which is great, because in the initial ones, we was kind of interacting with people and asking people what they do and where they're from. Now they come on and they know each other and they start chatting about their week and the daft things they've done and what's happened, and we use it for that. It's just. It's an escape for us. Me and Andy will be frantically recording content tomorrow, but in amongst that, we'll have a break and we'll. We'll do some connection stuff with people.

Bit of escapism from all the serious stuff. Lovely. Well, Danny, I'll just again say thank you very much for your time. Really appreciate it, and hopefully we will see you soon on a podcast with your business partner, Andy.

100%. You'll see us again. And you'll see me on some of your webinars as well. You see my face pop up. You know, I was at the launch of the whole man Academy, so 100% behind it. You know, really believing what you guys are doing. Get how important it is as well. Just because, you know, getting men to speak is not about forcing them to speak because they often won't open up then. It's about putting us together, creating connection and creating relationships, which is exactly what you're doing. You know, you're bringing men together and then naturally you start to open up. And I think that is so important.

It's good to hear. I mean, you know, it's nice to hear lots of support on it. Definitely something we want to get on to. Kind of talking about even more. And what are you going to do now?

So the rest of my day is a quick bit of lunch, see what the kids are up to, see what they have I haven't done in their homework. And then we are recording more content. As I say, it's like yourself. Everything's virtual now. So me and Andy will be recording more content that's going into the. The online business and education programs that we're going to have up and running. Lovely stuff, but it's about. It's about changing its adaptability. Right. So we always wanted to do virtual offerings. Never planned to do it yet. That was next year or year after. But the world changed and you've either got to change with it. We can't choose what's happened, but we can choose how we deal with it. Right, so it's like doing your Joe Wicks every day, isn't it? You can. You can choose to not do anything, or you can choose. Choose to just do something to get yourself started every day and just keep that routine in your life.

Yeah. Now, I think hopefully all the guys that listen to it will take some personal golden nuggets from it. And, yeah, we look forward to having you back on at some point. Thank you very much, Danny.

Great to speak to you. See you soon, guys.