EP030 - Talking you, me and the big C - Steve Bland

So this is the whole Man Academy podcast. I am your host, Anthony Asprey. My guest today is the lovely Steve Bland. Steve is a journalist and podcast presenter. He occasionally hosts the award winning podcast you, Me and the Big C. He's also an occasional marathon runner. And today we're going to talk about being a dad, dealing with grief, the power of podcasts, running a marathon and barbecues, which I think is obviously something important to us chaps with the summer, kind of just full time host of.

You, me and the big circle.

Full time host.

Full time host.

Good. We're going to come on to that as well about how that's been affected with lockdown. So, Steve, welcome to the Whole Man Academy.

Thanks for having me.

The first question we will start with is how are you and where are you?

I'm good, I'm good. I'm at home in Knutsford in Cheshire. A very leafy little bit of Cheshire, which is a town that I grew up in, moved to when I was 4 and pretty much lived here ever since, 36 years on and off.

It's a good effort. And how are you feeling at the moment? Because we're kind of just coming out of lockdown, but we feel like we've been in it for, I know, 10 weeks.

I don't have a clue. Is it nine weeks? 10 weeks? Is it Monday? Is it Friday?

Yeah. To roll into one.

I'm good, I'm good. My son and I have a 4 year old son called Freddie. And, you know, so it's just been the two of us. We, you know, we've been doing all right. It's been fairly intense with just two of us. You know, the weather's been an absolute godsend, hasn't it? You know, letting him play outside. And I can't imagine, you know, how tough it would have been if, you know, if it had been bad weather, the whole time would have been just an absolute nightmare. But yes, that's been a bit of a godsend and we've been doing okay. You know, I think, you know, we'll get on to everything else later. But the last three or four years have sort of instilled in me a fair bit of resilience and I think an ability to only try and focus on the things that I can actually affect. And, you know, this isn't, I can't do anything about this, so we have to just get on with it and make the best of the situation.

No, it's an important point and I know you hit on something there about the Weather when obviously, obviously we were introduced by our friend Robin Swithinbank and I think he said to me, the weather is sugar coated. A bad situation. Yeah, because you have been able to get outside.

I totally made a buck. It's totally, I mean, taking it from a complete nightmare to just being bearable. I know I'm lucky, I've got garden space. I know not everybody is the same and, you know, we do feel really lucky to be able to, you know, go in the garden. We've got woods just around the corner and so we've been outside quite a lot.

Yeah.

And it's just given me a bit of a break from Freddie as well and him a break from me. You know, like I said, it's quite intense with just a four year old and then I think if we were just cooped up inside the whole time, it would be fairly tedious for us both.

I think we've spoken to a lot of guys through the whole man academy in the last 10 weeks, either via Zoom call that we've been doing or on podcasts or just guys that we've connected with. And we often said that for some of the dads who've got kids and the mums as well, but they're not getting a break from the kids and the kids aren't getting a break from them. And in fact, some of the guys we knew that live on their own, they were saying that actually they've kind of been in solitude for 10 weeks. So it was a bit like we could all do with a bit of what the other one have had as just a little bit of, you know, the guys that live on their own could do with a bit of a hug and the dads perhaps could do with it just a day or two where you have, you know, all your own time.

I'm definitely grateful that he's, you know, Freddie's been around. I mean, you know, he's four, nearly five, so he's starting to develop, you know, quite a personality and he's actually really good company now. He's, you can actually have, you know, fairly intelligent conversations with him. You know, he'll. He'll watch things that aren't completely tedious on the TV and, you know, that's kind of made a difference. I think if it'd been a couple, a couple of years ago, if this would have happened, it would have been certainly different with a 2 year old. But he's, he's been brilliant. I thought he'd be, I thought that, you know, I thought he'd struggle quite a lot being, you know, quite a sociable kid and he's used to playing with his mates on the street and my sister lives around the corner with her, you know, her children and Freddie sees them almost every day normally. And so I thought that he's, you know, he'd struggle, but he's been great. He's been just, just, you know, just fantastic, great company. And that's not to say we haven't had our little. Couple of, you know, a couple of moments or we butted heads over, you know, a mixture of things, but it's been all right.

Well, it's good to hear and I think we'll get on to other topics. But even going on to this, a lot of the guys you spoke to have said it's good to hear other dads saying, and you know, mums, dads or anybody that's looking after kids saying, you know, it isn't easy and, you know, sometimes you have flare ups and, you know, each, each day has brought its own challenges at the moment.

Yeah.

Especially now with, you know, I guess for some people are trying to. When kids are going back to school nursery and they're not, you know, they haven't been there for a while. Yeah, it's an interesting time for us all.

It's difficult, but I mean, I think, I think there's, you know, there's a bit of pressure put on parents by some, you know, some people on social media, if you were to believe, you know, their social media, you know, they're going to come out of this, you know, speaking eight languages and having written five novels, you know, while juggling eight children and the, you know, the job.

Yeah.

I just think, you know, this is just such an exceptional time that, you know, almost just making it through to the next day is a success. And, you know, once we get out of it, we'll all, we'll all kind of figure out where we are. But I just think, you know, don't put too much pressure on yourself.

Yeah, well, I know. I'm trying to think which podcast I heard with the guys, you know, just do what you can at the moment and the. Hopefully the kids are, as you say, just like us, resilient and hopefully will forget about it fairly quickly.

That's it. Yeah.

And in fact, we're talking about resilience and you've already mentioned that, you know, that's one of the big things about the whole man Academy is helping men deal with basically anything that gets thrown at them. As we know things are going to get thrown at us left, right and center and be able to be resilient in those times. And, you know, one of the things that you and I have spoken about off camera or via email before this was covering subjects that aren't often talked about. But of course, touch, touch a lot of us. So I know, getting into it, you were married to Rachel and was it back in 2013?

Yeah, yeah. Good. Yeah.

And I guess for you, telling the story of the fact that obviously Rachel had breast cancer. And for me, and I'll say this honestly, I watched a video when I was just kind of getting a bit more information about yourself, where Rachel spoke about, you know, the difficulty of leaving you, but especially with Freddie. And I sat there and cried because being a dad who has got little kids and, you know, I can't understand what it's like, but, you know, I could try and imagine. And honestly, it made me cry because it was such a touching story. And, I mean, perhaps for yourself, you could tell the guys listening, kind of your. Your take on what happened with the timings and how you dealt with Rachel and what happened.

Yeah. So going back to the start, Rachel was a BBC News reader. She read the news on BBC 5 live, occasionally on the news channel as well. If you live up in the Northwest, she was on local telly up here as well quite a bit. And she was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2016, in November 2016. And after. After best part of two years of, you know, things not working and, you know, I was gonna say ups and down. There weren't. There weren't too many ups. It was mostly downs and, you know, a bit of level and then a bit further down. And she died in September 2018. You know, so coming on two years ago and, you know, so I've had two years of trying to, you know, kind of work out what to do next, work out how to be a dad by myself. And it's not been easy, but, you know, we're still here, we're still standing.

Yeah. Still fighting.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And still trying to do whatever I can to, you know, carry on a lot of the work that she started.

And I know, I mean, again, when I was reading about your situation, you know, one of the big things was obviously with Freddie, with Rachel kind of trying to leave behind, you know, videos and things so that as he's growing up, he can have a, you know, an understanding of what his mum was like. But as a dad, how's it been for you? Because I guess, obviously the obvious thing is to look at how it's been for Freddie, but for you, from the moment that you first kind of heard the news, how have you managed to kind of stay. I'm not saying always staying strong, because I'm pretty. Pretty sure there's been dark times. But how, with your journey, have you managed to compartmentalize it and deal with getting on with your life?

Do you mean since she died or do you mean since you were diagnosed?

Since she was diagnosed, yeah.

So since you were diagnosed. It's a funny thing. I. I've always been quite practical and, you know, I think when she was diagnosed, you know, first of all, we didn't. We didn't think it would end the way it did. You know, breast cancer is meant to be the, you know, one of the ones that you can treat and you can get past.

Yeah.

So that, you know, my whole focus was on. Was on her, in making her believe that. And it's a funny thing. You don't really have a lot of time to think about yourself. And I know you should. I know, you know, certain people said to me, you're right from the start, you know, make sure you look after yourself. You know, during the two years that she was ill, you know, how are you doing? And I'd say, all right. How are you really doing? I say, honestly, I'm fine. Yeah, because you just. You just develop this resilience and you. And, you know, my whole focus was on her. And the problem was that if. That if I showed her that I was, you know, struggling or having problems, you know, that's just one more thing for her to worry about. And that's the last thing that I want, you know, is to give her more to worry about. And Rachel was quite a worrier. You know, I knew that if she, you know, that if she thought that I was having a bad time, you know, more than the bad time that she would imagine that I was having anyway, because my wife had breast cancer, if she thought that I was really struggling, you know, that would just. That would just. That would just break her.

Yeah.

It'd be so difficult for her to handle. So my entire focus was just on her, you know, probably at the expense of my own health. A friend of mine said to me a few weeks ago, I can't think what we're talking about. But he said. He said, I can remember talking to you when, during the time Rachel was ill. And he said that I just looked white and I looked a bit overweight, and I just looked so unhealthy, so stressed, and I Think never even crossed my mind that I was having a tough time. Particularly you just focus on Rachel. And that's the thing. While I was having a tough time, she was having a far worse time. She was having to fully look the end of her life in the eye. And particularly the last year or the last seven months or so, six months after we found out that she wasn't going to get better, that it was incurable, you know, just. I can't imagine what she was going through, you know, must have been, you know, horrendous. Like we talk quite openly, but still, I mean, I can't imagine it, how that would feel. So. Yeah, so I guess my. My focus was just on her. I think I've said to you before that I really try and focus on just on just what I can, you know, what I can have an effect on. And the only stuff I could have an effect on was when was being there for her and supporting her. Yeah. And it was only after she died. And I can remember sitting on the sofa and maybe a day or two later, it was a. Perhaps more than a day or two. The week or two after she died was mental. The level of press coverage and attention that she got was just extraordinary. And it was probably a couple of weeks after and on my sofa, I took a. A big deep breath and I can remember just bursting into tears. Not, you know, not entirely just because I was upset, which I was, but just the exhaustion and you just think, like, the build up, that was hard. That was hard. And, you know, I'd do it all over again given half the chance, but it was hard. It was hard. It was exhausting and it was tiring. You know, who did you.

Who did you have to kind of speak to as a. And it hasn't got to be a male, but I saw in your Instagram you made a really good point. I mean, about what's been happening. Moment that it's been hard. Kind of missing, you know, missing friends and not seeing them for birthdays and events and what have you. But going through that. Did you kind of have one male friend that you kind of spoke to more, or do you have more like a collective group of mates?

I have probably three or four that I consider to be really, really, really close friend. Close male friends. One a guy lives in Dorset, you know, so a fair way away, and two others live around the corner in Knutsford. But it's hard for them as well. And they've not been in this situation. They don't know what to do. I Think a lot of the work that I've tried to do since Rachel died has been trying to make people okay with talking about these difficult things. Because, I mean, you ask anybody that's been in my situation or in Rachel's situation, there are friends that just vanish. They properly vanish. And it's not because they're bad people. It's just because they have no idea what to do. They have no idea what to say. They have no idea how to help. And then you get some other people who are maybe a bit more, you know, maybe they've been through something themselves, and, you know, they've just got more of an idea of what, you know, what they might want. You know, I had friends who weren't. You know, I wouldn't have even considered them to be really close friends, but they were just. They were just fantastic. They were just there for me. One guy, old BBC colleague who was. I mean, he was a good mate, but just, you know, just. He was just there all the time, you know, for a chat. Just the odd text, yeah, how you doing? And I think it's. Yeah, I mean, a lot of the stuff I've tried to say is people have said, like, you know, what's. What's the worst thing that you can say? And the worst thing is absolutely nothing, you know. You know, I'd far rather someone, you know, tried to say something, tried to do the right thing, and made a pig's ear of it and said nothing, I guess.

I know I spoke to a chap on a podcast of night who lost his daughter to complications with the flu, and she was just 13, and he spoke, you know, about that, of having the support of the people around you. And as you said, some people just don't know how to react and don't know what to say. And I know. I guess going even back with the whole Man Academy, what the initiative is about is the more that you encourage people to talk about these things, the more it normalizes it. And perhaps people, even if they don't know exactly what to say, they at least start that conversation.

Yeah, it's so true. It was the whole. I mean, we'll come on to it at some point soon. But, you know, that was the whole point of why Rachel started her podcast, because there were these conversations have been had on social media in this little echo chamber of young women with cancer. Some guys do, mostly women with cancer, and it just wasn't being replicated. It wasn't a conversation that anybody else was having or wanted to engage with. And she Wanted to bring that conversation out and show that these things are okay to talk about. And you know, so that's been a big, that's been a big thing for me to, you know, to wherever I can, anytime I do an interview or, you know, talk on a podcast or whatever it might be, you know, because I know, you know, some guys are, you know, terrible at talking about stuff. We all know, we all know guys like that. And you know, so I think it's a responsibility of those of us that are more able to talk about it to, you know, to talk about it, talk about these difficult things and, and you know, for me, you know, talking about Rachel and you know, has never felt like a chore or something that I shouldn't be doing. It's always felt like a massive honor. You're not something I'm ashamed of, you know, I'm massively proud of what she achieved.

Yeah.

And, you know, I'll happily tell anybody about her and about, about everything.

And that's the important thing, isn't it? It's, you know, even like tonight, I appreciate you giving me your time to come and speak, but we always hope that, you know, it doesn't matter if it's a guy listening. But you know, because we know that 25% of our listeners are female actually on our podcast, which is interesting things. It's the whole man academy. And what that shows you is that women are interested in what hopefully what we're thinking. And which is funny because often we don't know what we're thinking anyway. But you know, it's, we will say like if one guy listens to our podcast and takes away a golden nugget and you know, whilst we talk about this, you know, everybody's going to be affected by grief at some point. Unfortunately, it's not something generally that you're going to avoid. And you know, going on from that, as you said about starting the podcast of Rachel, what did the podcast give you when she started it? Because, you know, it's an award winning podcast. It's, it was huge. And I remember at the time kind of hearing it and listening to one of the episodes and thinking, sounds silly, but what a great idea. My parents both had some form of cancer themselves, so I didn't know much about it, I'll admit, until one of them phoned me up and said, I've got cancer. And suddenly I was very interested in the whys and wherefores of it. Yeah, but yeah, with yourself kind of. If you tell us a bit about the story of the podcast, because it's been. It's. It's been massive, isn't it?

Yeah. So Rachel was, as I said earlier on, she was a BBC journalist. And when she was diagnosed, I remember sitting on a sofa and she was talking about kind of what, you know, what she should do, how she should be talking about it, because she wanted to talk about it, whether it be on social media or whatever, but she wanted to be open about what was happening, if only to point people somewhere rather than have to answer question after question after question after question. And so she started blogging. And it was probably about best part of a year, over a year after she was diagnosed that she, you know, we had the idea for the podcast and I, I was a producer at the BBC, she was a presenter. So I had a kind of production hat on and I was able to kind of try and talk us through how it might work and who she might want to have on it.

Yeah.

And she was, you know, she was part of this Instagram sort of cancer community, mostly young women, like I said, who were talking very openly, and she wanted to bring that conversation to the more mainstream. So she picked a couple of girls, Deborah. Deborah James and Lauren Marn, who. Deborah's got stage four bowel cancer. Lauren is. She was diagnosed some of the time to Rachel, which she's now a year, possibly two years, actually. Claire.

Yeah.

And Rachel pitched it to the guys at 5Live, the bosses at 5Live. And I think initially they weren't over the moon because, like you say, it hadn't been done before. It's not an obvious, you know, the BBC don't. I don't think they want to be the people that make these little niche. These little niche podcasts. They want ones that go far and wide and, yeah, you know, hit big hit, big numbers. And they weren't totally convinced, I don't think. And they also weren't convinced with that Rachel would be okay to do it. You know, health was up and down and.

Yeah.

So anyway, they gave the go ahead. The girls met for the first time at the first recording and just, you know, just hit it off straight away. And straight away you could tell, you know, for the cancer community, particularly, like I said, you know, like I said for guys, you know, we're not all good at talking about the same thing for girls, you know, there was a cancer community on Instagram, but then beyond that, there were loads and loads of people that weren't on Instagram that wanted an outlet. They wanted someone, you know, some what the podcast Gave them was just, you know, this feeling that of not being in the trenches alone. You know, somebody was there with them going through the same thing. And, yeah, you know, these, these, you know, beautiful young women who, you know, were living these, living their lives to the fullest, you know, while going through cancer treatment, you know, gave everyone such encouragement and it just became such a hit. And I know for Rachel, the response was just massive. For her, it just gave us such a lift. And for me, it was, it was, it was fantastic because it was, you know, I could see in her the lift it gave her. And that, you know, that takes a bit of the pressure off. It just, you know, just gave her, you know, so much confidence. It was, it was a. It was, it was just incredible. And. But I didn't really play an awful lot of part in it. And until when would it have been probably about, I don't know, maybe this time last year, this time two years ago when the girls did a podcast on friends and family and so how cancer impacts on the nearest and dearest. And I did it, they sort of handed it over to me, to Lauren's brother, to Deborah's dad, and also Jonathan Agnew from the BBC, Cricket man at the BBC. You know, anybody that knows Agates is a big guy, 6 foot 5, 6 foot 6. And, you know, his wife Emma had breast cancer. And one of the first things that he said to me was that he had been to the doctor, the gp, straight away when Emma got diagnosed because he was worried about his mental health. I'm thinking, you know, flipping it, this, this proper alpha male, former international cricketer, you know, if he can go and talk about it, pretty much anybody can.

I think isn't that important. Just say sometimes. We always say our events. It's, it's not necessarily always about having high profile people, famous people there, but it helps for a lot of guys to see someone who isn't shy about saying, you know, I've faced this challenge in my life and we've had a lot of guys that say, wow, you know, I. Rightly or wrongly, people put someone on a pedestal and, you know, they're. They're either big in sport or in, you know, whatever, whatever field they're in. But having someone up there, just saying. A great example was Robin Windsor, who was on our, one of our podcasts. And, you know, it was a great interview and a lot of fun, but I mean, it was the point where I think maybe 40 minutes in where he kind of spoke about the fact that he'd contemplated Taking his own life and got very close to it. And you know, we had a couple of messages afterwards from people just saying, you know, wow, it's first, it's brave to talk about it on camera because it's the most personal thing you can talk about. But of course, you know, any of the challenges that guys are going through in life just means that, you know, if someone can hear you talking about it and as you say with him as well, and you're like, wow, there's a big guy in a larger than life chap here. He's quite happy to be. Show some vulnerability.

Yeah. And that's what it is, isn't it? And almost shouldn't be seen as vulnerability, should it? It should just be entirely why you are.

Yeah.

You know, should this be, you know, there shouldn't be a problem with or it shouldn't be seen as being brave, you know, it shouldn't be seen as being anything special. And I can remember thinking, with Agar's thinking how, you know, how amazing it was that he would talk about it so openly. It was quite, quite high profile. And you know, he, and that was the first time he actually talked about it and he actually said, I think he said something. I mean, he actually found it really, really useful talking with the five of us because he, he hadn't really talked about it. You know, Emma was diagnosed, I think quite a few months before, perhaps even even a year before, and he'd never talked about it to anybody other than her, you know, none of his close friends. And, and he found it really useful just to be able to sit in that studio and just have a conversation with people that understood. That was the thing with the podcast. People were listening and the people talking on the podcast had been there, they were there at the time. They were in the trenches, they were doing it, they were living their lives to the fullest while they were going through their treatment. And I think to so many people it just resonated and it became a big hit. I mean, it's never had, you know, the sort of numbers of, I mean, some, you know, some of the massive podcasts that Peter Crouch podcast, you know, the biggest BBC podcast ever. And it doesn't have the numbers of that, but I think, you know, it's got a much more engaged audience where they tune in on a Wednesday. Yeah, just. They tune in on a Wednesday or Monday, whatever it's been, and they need it, you know, they really need that podcast.

And I always think as you're, as you're saying that you Know, talking openly, especially in a group, you know, it becomes a, for want of better words, a light hearted version of therapy. So, you know, to be able to talk with people that are going to understand what you're, you know, what you've gone through. But I mean, you know, the great obvious part of it is recording it and letting you know, unlimited amount of people listen to it as well. It's priceless.

It's sort of been my therapy, I know, to jump on a bit. After Rachel died, I did a podcast with the girls because I knew, I used to work in PR and in the media and I knew with my sort of PR hat on, I knew that people were interested in what I had to say about Rachel. I was getting interview requests, but I wanted the podcast to get the benefit of that. So the first time that I spoke, I wanted it to be on the podcast. So I talked to the girls and it sort of went pretty well. And they were still kind of trying to work out what to do, whether they carry on with the two of them or, you know, how that might work. Because Rachel was very much the anchor of the podcast. Being the present sort of full time presenter, she knew how to kind of control the conversation a bit more. And the controller of 5Live came up to me afterwards a couple of weeks later and he said, you know, yeah, that was really good. Do you fancy doing it? And I, and I, I've been thinking that I really did, but I never wanted it to be, you know, to kind of impose that on them. It was their thing.

Yeah.

You know, it was their podcast, it wasn't mine and I didn't want to impose that. But then when he said that, I was like, yeah, absolutely, would love to, and that that became my therapy. To go back to the therapy point, you know, that became my therapy. So I tried a couple of, I tried three sessions actually. Can't say after Rachel died, just because I didn't want to be, you know, so arrogant to think that I didn't need it.

Yeah.

But I didn't really feel like it was doing anything for me. And I think the reality is that I talk so openly about her anyway to anybody that will listen. Particularly at that time I was doing, you know, there was, there's a lot of interest in us. I was doing interviews and, you know, talking on the podcast and, you know, that became my therapy. That became, you know, that became a place where I talked about it and talked about, you know, what was feeling and what was happening. And yeah, I didn't really, I Mean, it's not, you know, possibly something I go back to in the future if I felt like I would need it, but, you know, just, I didn't feel like it. Anything for me at the time, has.

It, I mean, with, with the situation we've all been in at the moment, has it taken, you know, taken a 10 week break, the podcast? So I assume it will be back bigger and better.

Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's more of a. We actually, we actually started recording the next series about two weeks before lockdown, maybe three weeks, and we recorded one episode and then lockdown happened. And actually even before lockdown happened, you know, when it started to affect kind of transport and it started to affect, you know, how mobile people were. A lot of our guests are cancer patients, our presenters are cancer patients and a lot of them are on treatment. So, you know, their immune system is, you know, not what it should be.

Yeah.

So we didn't want to be, you know, dragging people to studios and making them do things that they shouldn't be doing. So we sort of paused it and we've actually had, we've actually had a. I think as the story's gone on, cancer patients have become kind of one of the focus of the whole, the whole lockdown period because of the impact it's having on people getting diagnosed the first time. People aren't going to see GPS. You know, some GPS are 85% down in. There are numbers of people coming to see them with early or potential cancer symptoms and it's going to have terrifying consequences in a few months time. And so we've wanted to restart. It's just been a couple of logistical issues with timings and various other things, but we are starting to record again next week. Good.

Glad to hear it. I think it's one of those that is so difficult. Difficult, isn't it? As you say, because you want to bring people in, but especially if it's someone with a, you know, a low immune system at the moment, then they're at increased risk. For yourself with Freddy, how have you stayed as a dad? You know, how did you deal best with the situation? Is it just taking one day at a time with him?

Yeah, it was difficult. That was, I mean, I think that was inevitably my biggest focus after Rachel died. You know, obviously, you know, her job as a mum was the thing she was, you know, she was most proud of and it was the thing we talked about most was, you know, making sure that he was going to be okay. You know, she gave me some very strict Instructions about how to keep his hair, the kind of clothes he should be wearing or all that kind of stuff. And, yeah, sort of from day one. That was my biggest focus even before she died, really, you know, working out how to tackle that event for him. And I think my initial thoughts were to couch it, fluff it up in some. Mommy's gone to live with the stars. Go to live in the stars or. Yeah, or gone to live with Jesus or something. That didn't sound so brutal as Mummy's died and she's not going to come back. But then, you know, talking to some charities and things, that's what you have to say, you know, you have to be. You have to be honest.

Where'd you even start with that?

Well, I. I mean, Rachel died at home, so she died in our. In our bedroom. And Freddie had known that she'd been ill and he was about a week. About a week shy of his third birthday, you know, so he's quite, you know, he's quite able, you know, I mean, understand, but he's. I mean, he was. Yeah, he's. He's of an age where he kind of sort of grasps, you know, what's going on. Yeah. So she died in the middle of the night, about 3:15 in the morning and. And he knew that she'd been ill, he knew that she'd been in bed. So the next morning I took him up to our room at about. About 9 o', clock, I think, in the morning and I just kind of showed him the empty bed and I just said, look, you know, Mummy, you know that she was ill, you know, that she was, you know, extremely poorly and unfortunately she died and she's not going to come back. And he just, he burst into tears on me and gave me a big cuddle and then got up and run off and played with his toys. You know, they just. Kids are incredible. They have just. That's what I found with this lockdown period. They have an ability just to accept things, you know, to not, you know, not need to understand it too much.

Yeah.

You know, I think we possibly overthink it and. And, you know, he just. He was fine and I mean, I'm starting to find now, you know, he's like, I say, nearly five and I think now he's definitely starting to ask a lot more questions. He's a little tyke, actually. He uses Rachel as a bit of an excuse for being naughty. Sometimes he'll be a bit. Doing something he shouldn't be doing and I'll tell him off and he'll get all upset and he says, oh, but Daddy, I just really miss Mummy so much. I said, no, no way. You're not having that. No chance.

Yeah, you can have it a bit.

But, yeah, yeah, don't overplay your cards, son. Sorry, my earphones are falling out. But yeah, so, yeah, it's been my biggest focus, though, definitely him. And, you know, pretty much every decision I've made since has been with him in mind. And.

Yeah, how's it affected you with your work? Obviously, because, you know, obviously having to look after him and trying to work as well. I mean, I know several parents who are single parents and of course it brings up so many challenges around the work and home life.

So, yeah, so before Richard died, I worked in PR for about just over two years, and before that I was at the BBC. So the job I was in pr. Rachel died in September. I was thinking, you know, I could go back to that, but the reality was that I had an opportunity to take a bit of time off. You know, financially we were okay with insurances and what have you, and a bit of time for the chance of a bit of time off. And I kind of knew that I wasn't what I wanted to do anymore. I sort of knew that, especially once I started doing the podcast, I knew that become a big focus. So work has been quite a fluid concept for the last 18 months. I definitely feel now like I need to be doing something a bit more to get some focus. Particularly the last nine or ten weeks have taught me that I'm just. The podcast is brilliant and I do another few bits and bobs at the BBC. I work on another podcast called Hooked, all about Addiction, which was the winner of After Rachel died, the 5 Live launched, I think, or the Rachel Bland New Podcast Award.

Yes.

And the idea was to give the same chance that 5Life had given Rachel to another person or people. He wanted to kind of give a voice to another community. And the first winners were two girls who'd been in an addiction center and have been through all manner of terrifying and terrible experiences. But it's a fantastic podcast. I work on that as well. Just production and. Yeah, so other bits and bobs, but nothing, you know, nothing kind of, really, you know, really concrete. And I think I've never really been someone that's enjoyed working, but I definitely am missing, you know, the structure and the normality of having a focus like that.

I think that's such an important topic for guys listening and it's. It doesn't really matter what the situation is that's created that kind of vacuum of work. And I know we've spoken to guys in different situations, and even if you just took redundancy and then you take some time out, but very quickly, sometimes can feel, and I've had it myself, you feel like you lack a bit of purpose because everybody else is doing what they're doing and you're kind of, you know, I found myself pottering around at home. There's only so much pottering you can do.

Yeah. I mean, once you've. Once you've done the garden, once you've. Once you've tidied the garage out, you know, there's only so many things you can do. And. Yeah, I definitely have. I definitely have missed, you know, missed that focus and that and that purpose that, you know, I think even though it's not really a job, the podcast gives me that because I know how important it is, you know, both in terms of the listeners, but also for Rachel's, you know, Rachel's legacy as well. Carrying on something that she was so passionate about is really important to me. And, you know, that podcast is a really big part of my purpose and my focus. It's a big deal for me, I think.

I know we're trying to cover many topics with the whole man academy, but, you know, a man's purpose, I think, is right up there because, you know, if you've got that down, um, you know, everything else can. Can kind of fall into place.

Yeah, definitely.

And talking of purpose with podcasts, I mean, you know, we're recording one here, but, I mean, podcasts have exploded in the last couple of years.

Yeah.

And I just wanted your thoughts on, like, what podcast do you listen to and why?

I am. I got really into. Into real crime ones, and then when there were too many of those, I got fairly bored. I. I tend to listen to podcasts who are done by. Done by mates, you know, guys at 5Live who did. A good friend of mine called Chris Warburton did a podcast called Beyond Reasonable Doubt.

Right.

And then he's done one called End of Days, which was fantastic. And then. And then I'm. I'm good pals with a couple of the guys who. The Peter Crouch podcast. So I listen to that one quite religiously as well. I like the escapism of podcasts. I like to have a. I listen to podcasts when I'm running or out rather than music. I like to have podcasts in because it engages me a bit. I don't really enjoy running as we'll come on to a bit later. So I like to have something to take my mind off it a little bit. Mind off the fact that I'm running and, you know, podcast is perfect and you know, nice. I like a nice long one. I don't like, you know, some 20 minute ones. They're not into that. Even if you have to put it down and pick it up again, I like a nice long podcast. Is.

Isn't it that thing now that, you know, of the long form conversation which perhaps was kind of, I say, dead, but you know, that now you're able to find people you're interested in listening to and go down lots of different avenues or rabbit holes instead of kind of do a quick 20 minute and I think so Joe Rogan's the prime example of that, you know, with his huge podcast. Yeah, but that's for us, been something to kind of trial. I think our longest podcast was just over two hours.

Wow. Yeah, we've not hit two hours. We did a. We did one where we were shown round. No, no, I'll tell you what it was. We did one where we. In the same podcast, we interviewed Andrew Strauss, whose wife died of cancer as well, and Lorraine Kelly, who's sort of big fan of the podcast and one of her producers on the Lorraine Show, Helen, she's had breast cancer and they launched a big campaign called Change and Check, which is, which is, you know, doing great work to help women get diagnosed. And so, yeah, that was about an hour and a half, that podcast. It was a little on the long side, particularly. I think the trouble is with long podcasts is that if you want to attract a new listener, it's quite big commitment to ask them to listen to an hour and a half or something. They don't have any idea what it's about or who the people are. It's quite, it's quite a lot to ask a new listener, I think. So I think we're gonna probably aim for under an hour for these, you know, these new ones. It's. This is as long as it's good for, I think.

Yeah.

Podcast.

No, certainly. I think we're, you know, we're trialing different things. But I always say that podcast saved my life because I hadn't listened to podcasts at all. Um, but I was working in the city and was mildly unfulfilled and my partner said, you should listen to his podcast. And I've said before, I was like, I'm not, I'm busy, you know, I haven't got time to listen to that. And, you know, very, very quickly, I was, you know, my commute wasn't long enough because you'd arrive at Charing Cross or, you know, Canistry, and you'd be like, I need another 10, 15 minutes. So I think for us, it's. It's been great also to expand your network, but also to expand the reach. I mean, going back to the, you know. You mean the big C as much as the whole man academy. What we saw, of course, was our events were limited to just the guys that could come along to it. But now when you see the. The amount of people from different countries that have listened to our podcast, I think it's 20 plus countries.

Yeah.

And it's just great to realize that's the. That's the power of it. First.

That's amazing. That's incredible. I mean, after, After Rachel died, I was getting messages from people in America, Brazil, Germany, you know, all over Europe, you know, saying they listen to the podcast and they were, you know, how devastated they were. It was just. Yeah, just absolutely extraordinary. Like, the reach of it. And, you know, before she died, it had reached number one in the podcast charts. And, you know, since she died, it's. There's one won all kinds of awards. I wasn't here deliberately because these are behind me. So this was. This is a television and radio industry club, industry council trick, best podcast and then various other ones over there.

It tells you something when we say there are a lot of podcasts around now. So to win a, you know, a award is, you know, it's.

No, yeah, no, it's amazing. That trick one, actually, we were like. There were three of us in the, in the shortlist. There was us, that Peter Crouch podcast and another one. And yeah, so that, that was nice to win that one.

So does that mean if you've listened to the Peter Crouch podcast, that means you're into football?

Yes, I am.

If so, then what's your thoughts on kind of the season restarting at the moment? Because I know my. My mates and I just like, so desperate in it, forgetting what's going on. We just desperate for some football.

Yeah, but, you know, I don't think you should be. You should be ashamed of talking about it. It's, you know, there's some people that would. I mean, as soon as you open your mouth saying you want football to come back, they say, well, it's not as important as people dying. Well, obviously. Obviously it's not. But you don't get the same reaction if you say, oh, I really miss going to the cinema or. Yeah, I really miss going to the pub, you know, but for some reason football gets, gets this reaction. I just think it, I just think it can't come back quick enough. And you know, I know it's not going to be ideal behind, you know, with no fans, behind closed doors, but it's, it's better than nothing.

I, I totally agree. You just said that three days ago. Someone said the same. You know, I'll, I'll just, just give me any football at the moment. You know, something.

And I've watched Bayern Munich, Brussels, Dortmund today. Absolutely brilliant.

Just going to say at least there's something out there.

Yeah.

And we all said going back to kind of, you know, going back to guys getting together and talking that, you know, not just football, but football, for example, is such a big part of many guys across the world that their life. And you're either playing it at the weekends and watching it or you're, you're just watching it and you're. Or even going to it and it's part of the community with you guys getting together. I know, letting off steam, having a few drinks and it's your day out and that's been lost for everybody at the moment. So. There's a really good point. You know, you shouldn't be shy in saying you're desperate to get football back on.

Yeah, no, I'm absolutely desperate for it to come back. And you know, I'm a Liverpool supporter, so I would be.

Me too. Yeah.

I can't, I can't let the season go. It's too important. I'm not. Yeah, that's not happening.

Yeah, I'm sure, sure Sir Alex is the only one that's sitting smiling at the moment.

Well, it's only like the teams on the verge of getting relegated that, you know, want it to be voided. It's ridiculous.

Yeah. Let's hope it doesn't come to that. So being a Liverpool supporter myself, you just couldn't make it up that, you know, two games before the end.

Oh, I don't know. I don't. I don't know how old you are, but I'm. I'm nearly 40 so, you know, I went to watch my first game in the last, in the last year we won the league.

Yeah.

And you know, to not really have seen it, you know, to not have seen a winning, you know, winning a league winning team in the proceeding. Well, in the. Not proceeding. Sorry. In the next 31 years is just, it's just incredible. So. Yeah, you'll be pleased.

I'm older than you, I'm. I'm 42 in a couple of weeks time.

Right.

So I'm in the same boat here. I'm ready to celebrate. Although here's the scary thing is that you win the league and you're not allowed to have a, you know, you're not allowed to get a million people to get together to celebrate.

So I live, I live around the corner from Jordan Henderson here. So.

Right.

I'll just go and hang out outside his house and just, just lobster his window till he comes out and we can have a big hug.

Yeah, I'll pop up as well. Yeah, we'll have a barbecue. We're talking about that. I know we were going to get on to talk about fitness and sport but talk about running. Tell me about, you know, I know you said you're occasional marathon runner so how did you get into that and what you like as a runner?

I've always been a, you know, been a sportsman. I've always played football, cricket, tennis. I was a windsurfing instructor for a few years. You know, just any sport going. Growing up I would play and. But running has never really been a thing. And then I can remember being in London in 2005 and some mates would do the marathon and I was in London when around the finish line watching it all happen and you know these guys were coming out of the finish line, they were wrapped in their silver blankets, they had these medals around their necks and they looked exhausted but they looked so happy. They looked so happy. And I just thought to myself I really like to, you know, like to feel that. So the next year I did it for asthma UK in 06. Didn't particularly enjoy it. It's just a really long way. I don't know if you've done them. It's a terribly long way. And then got together with Rachel and then we did one this time there's a different kind of reason. My sister and husband, that little boy died when he was only five days old. A complication was during labor and so we ran A brother in law and I ran for oh what charity was, was one of the kids charities. I can't think which one it was, you know that meant a great deal and Rachel was running that one as well for a different charity. And then. Yeah and then the year before last Rachel had a place by Macmillan's like celebrity team and she managed to get me a place as well. But then her health wasn't good enough. You know she wasn't well enough to do it in 2018. So we kicked the place on to 2019 thinking, hoping that she'd be okay to do it. Then obviously she died in September 2018. So not long after, Macmillan came to me and they said, you know, do you fancy it? I was like, well, not really. They said, well, we'll give you, you know, we can sort you out with a number of places. And you know what would be cool is if we formed like a, like a team. Rachel and you know, made it, made a big deal of it because at the time, you know, hope this doesn't sound like having a go at McMillan but at the time, Rachel's death was getting a lot of, a lot of attention. And you know, for them that's, that's a good thing because they can raise a lot of money off the back of that. Yeah, so we formed a little team, there were six of us and yeah, managed to raise over 20,000. It was the power of TV. You know, we're on something like 15,000. And then about a day before the marathon, I did a interview on something on radio or TV or something and it literally went to 18,000 overnight. And then I was on BBC Breakfast the morning, the marathon from the start line and it went from 18 to like 21 in about 10 minutes. One guy donated £1,000. Just a random, random person. And that was really amazing because that was, that was a little team of us that it was. It was my best friend Will, the husband of one of Rachel's best friends, another one of Rachel's best friends, and then my brother in law and a mutual friend of ours called Henry. So there were six of us and it was just, it was a really emotional day. We did a podcast from the marathon actually.

Right.

Yeah, yeah. The girls met me on the, on the finish line and it was a really emotional day, but it meant a great deal and I vowed I would never do another one again. And then I am apparently doing another one again.

I was gonna say. So would you be interested in doing them around the world or happy to stick with London?

I don't know. I don't really want to do any, if I'm being honest. Just, I just. No. Yeah. So last year was, was Macmillan, this year it's Cancer Research uk. Well, I mean, if actually happens.

Yeah, that's a good point. Would you start looking at your times as well or are you just happy to finish it?

Oh, no, I start. I was looking at times, you know, when I was doing it when I was 26.

Yeah.

Not when I'm 40. You know, that is, that is just not. That is not important anymore. Yeah, I really wanted to. I'm like six. I'm not quite as tall as Robin, but, you know, I'm six three. You know, not really. Not really built for marathon running. And every marathon so far, all three of them have been cruising my way to under four hours. Like 3:45, until near enough, exactly the same point, about 19ish miles. And then my calves are packed up, literally every single one. So I've just, I'm just not fussed about. About marathons, about times anymore. It's, you know, it's more just, you know, more for me having a focus.

Yeah.

And especially, you know, especially last year after Rachel died. It was, it was amazing to have that focus of. I wasn't working. I wasn't. I mean, we did. I was working a bit with Rachel, wrote a book before she died, which was, which was released in the, in the January after she died. Yeah, there's a lot of work to do about that. But. But the marathon gave me a really, really, really great focus at the time when I really needed it.

And yes, I guess it gives you something to. Something to train for and as you said, something to focus on.

Yeah.

Did you at the time, did you make amendments to your nutrition, everything as well, or did you just carry on with the running? Because I know you're a meat eater and a meat lover.

I just don't really enjoy running. That's the problem. I just don't really enjoy running. Enjoy cycling. I enjoy golf, like I enjoy many, many, many sports, but just running, I just find a little bit on the boring side. That's why I need to have something that I'm training for. You know, I need to have a focus. Otherwise I'm just.

That's why you need obstacle course racing. So, you know, they put.

I've done a couple of those. That's fun.

Now we're talking in my language.

Yeah, that's fun. Yeah. A couple of tough mudders. They are good fun. Yeah. The trouble is that when you're a big guy. Sorry.

At least it breaks the run up.

Yeah. Yeah. The trouble is when you're, when you're, a tall guy, though, when you do a tough mudder, you're the guy that has to lift everyone over everything.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that slows you down. But yeah, they're good fun, though. I do, I do any number of them. They are, they are fun.

Well, they were, I don't know about last year, but I know when I was doing them and I think I've done over 100 of them, so. I know. Over 100. Yeah, I know my, I know my obstacle course racing.

Wow, that's amazing.

But just like you said, it gave me. It's probably two years before I left the city. I started doing them, but I'd got bored of not bored of football, but I'd broken my ankle so I stopped playing football for a while and you know, I was going to the gym but I suddenly needed something else like you said, to train for.

Yeah.

And as you know, with those, you need to run, but be able to, you know, deal with freezing conditions, be able to use your own upper body strength and crawl and drag and lift and pull and throw and etc. And I wondered with yourself. I know I did one way run to the top of Mount Snowden and back down again as you do. But I remember halfway up I was like, I want to give up.

Yeah.

I didn't, but I was like, what am I doing? Why am I doing? You know, I've chosen to be here and I don't know what I'm doing.

Yeah.

But it does give you something to train for ice.

You know, I think, you know, we've all been in those moments, haven't we? Whatever we're. Whether it's a, you know, whether it's a marathon, whether it's a whatever running up Snowden or, you know, whatever we're doing. I can remember thinking, thinking that when Rachel was ill, I was like, I just, I just really would love to just not do this anymore and just give up.

Yeah.

You know, just because it was so very, very, very hard. But you know, somehow you don't do, you know, you just, you just find a way and it's not. I read I, you know, a lot of sort of motivational speakers I think is I read something from Ant Middleton the other day and somebody was saying to him, you know, asking like tips for people that were finding it hard to kind of, you know, get out the door and go running and do exercise. And his, and his genius tip was just put your shoes on and do it. That's not. If it was as easy as that, then we'd all be doing it, wouldn't we? Yeah, it's just not.

Yeah.

You know, I just think there's a bit more to it than that. But it, you know, does, you know, it's amazing just to have a focus and I've always needed that. I think. Yeah. That kind of focus. I'd Like, I'd like to do some more stuff. I'd like to. I'd like to do an extraordinarily long bike ride, Right.

Yeah.

And I'd like to do a stupidly long paddle board as well. I just. Just haven't really got around to arranging it yet.

The great thing about those is you have to have a mixture of fitness, don't you? I mean, I would say with. With running, you're not really using your upper body strength as such. You can run around and run and run. But when you're doing something like paddleboarding, it gives you another reason to mix your training up, which with the whole man academy. One of the big things is talking about not just your health, but about your fitness, which some people confuse the two. And, yeah, it's about finding something that you enjoy, because as you said, with some people running, they're like, I don't like running. I don't want to do it.

Especially as you get older as well. And you, you know, you get, you know, when you're in your 20s, you just got so much time to kill.

Yeah.

You know, whereas when you're in, you know, when you're 40, 30s or 40s, you have kids, you've got a family, other commitments, and I think, you know, you have less and less and less time to do that kind of stuff. And you need. It needs to be something you enjoy.

Yeah.

Has to be, you know, for me, anyway. Has to be someone I enjoy. You know, I love. I love paddleboarding. I've just found a river down, you know, 10 miles away that, you know, I was up. You can just, you know, when this is all over, I'll be. You can paddle board 10, 20 miles, you know, miles down it, and you won't see anybody.

I'd love to do that.

It's beautiful. It has to be something you enjoy. For me, anyway, it's so important now.

It's what. Talking of things you enjoy, one of the things you and I commented on, which is how we got connected via. Well, via the medium of Robin sweetherbank and Instagram, was about. Was about barbecues. And I'm a total virgin when it comes to barbecues. I don't want to cook it, but I want to eat it.

Right. Okay.

So I'm always interested.

I enjoy doing both. Having a lot of time on my hands, particularly over the last 10 weeks, but really, over the last 18 months, you know, not, you know, not really working full time, I've had a lot of opportunity to, you know, to experiment. And I Enjoy cooking a lot, you know, always have done, you know, really enjoy cooking. I enjoy. I enjoy doing things that maybe are a bit, you know, I can enjoy curing stuff. I enjoy smoking things. I had, I've got a water bath. I had some ribs in there for 48 hours the other day. I've got. I've got a multiple barbecue situation outside with, you know, all. And I haven't got Rachel to tell me that I'm wrong, but they all in my head fulfill different purposes.

Yeah. As long as it's clear in your head, that's all you need.

That's. That is all I need. So. But I've got. I've started seeing someone else now and so I'm waiting for her to tell me that I shouldn't have multiple barbecues. But currently we're okay with multiple barbecues. But I love barbecuing. Yeah, I love it. Absolutely love it. And I'd barbecue everything if I could. I barbecued full, you know, full roast dinners. Done. Every single element of roast dinner on the barbecues. Brilliant. Fun.

See you on Christmas day out there. Barbecuing the turkey.

Well, you know, we did. I worked in Brazil for, for seven months teaching windsurfing and I was there every Christmas. And we didn't have turkey, we had. We had chickens. So we barbecued chickens for Christmas dinner. That was good fun.

As long as you're enjoying it. I did have a friend who, when I first met him, I thought he was joking when he said they barbecued their turkey on Christmas Day. But I realized he's an expert. You know, he's got a soup top barbecue, as it were. So it's. I was still that vision of being out with the firelighters, you know, wafting something around. Was it Tender Cow, which is the one on Instagram that you.

Yeah, yeah. So Tender Cow is. There's a. There's a market down the road called Ultria Market, which is. It's like an old indoor indoor market that over the last, I don't know, three or four years has been turned into a. Just a amazing, like, little hub for small businesses. So there's, there's like little coffee shops and there's little butchers and like little pizza places and like a little bar. And it's just, it's absolutely buzzing on a weekend and it's. And it's taken quite a hit, as you can imagine, from lockdown. Not just the, you know, the market itself, but, you know, the actual businesses that work in the market. And one of Them is tender cow. I don't really know the guys who run it. I just know the food is amazing. So they look great. It's incredible. It's incredible. And they, and they lay it all out for you. They give you, you know, all the instructions for how the burger should be layered and they, they give you like pickles, like caramelized onions. It's just, it's absolutely beautiful.

Yeah, we had. I'll tell you why I think it was when I saw one of your Instagram stories and I think it was one of the burgers that you had. And I know we had on one of our previous podcasts and our Zoom Live, we did a guy called David Swan, who's a chef, he worked with Heston Blumenthal and Gordon Ramsay and he did a 20 minute, well, it was supposed to be a 20 minute tutorial on cooking a perfect steak, but because we kept asking him questions before, poor guy was on there for an hour and 20 minutes. But, you know, the more pictures I see of stuff like that, I just, I really appreciate good, good quality meat. And again, even if you have good quality, you've got to cook it correctly as well.

Yeah. So important. I've been using the water bath a bit for. If you've got quite a. This is getting quite geeky now. You can go on. I had these big thick bits of rump steak. Rump steak. Normally, if you do, can get a bit tough, but in the water bath, 45 minutes at 50 something degrees, cooks it all the way through and then you just lob it in a pan, in a really hot pan. Sear the outside. Oh, it was just, it was just heavenly. Absolutely amazing.

I had dinner, but it's.

Oh, it's gorgeous. Yeah.

So what, what barbecue do you. If you're only allowed to use one barbecue. I know you know, this is, this is, isn't the main point of our podcast, but since we're here, we're going to talk about this, this important topic. What, what kind of barbecue? If you're saying you can only use one, would you be using?

Well, the trouble is, the trouble is with it just being me and Freddy, if I want to just chuck a few burgers on the barbecue for, you know, of me and him. Getting the charcoal going takes a long time.

Yeah.

So you want to just use the gas, just, you know, quickly do the. But if you're doing like a brisket for 12 hours, you can't really do it unless it's over coals.

Right.

So I would argue both have their you know, their essential use and therefore both will be staying.

Rightly so.

And, you know, who knows, I might add to the collection. You know, there's other barbecues that I've got my eye on. A pizza oven. I fancy a pizza oven.

Oh, how much? At the moment, we've not got anywhere really around here that does, you know, decent pizzas, to be honest. And there's someone that does a little van of pizzas. You know, they drive around and do it. Proper pizza oven. And we're. We're close to. Close to getting involved in that. It makes me laugh because we always say with the whole man academy, we're trying to give guys a toolkit for life. And the important part we'll add to that. You need two barbecues at least. Minimum.

Absolutely absolute minimum. If. If not three or four.

You know, I just imagine most. Most guys saying to their partners, I've ordered a barbecue and say, we've got one go. No, but listen, I. Listen, you know, the one I want.

The one I want is. Is. I don't know if you've heard of it, I call a big green egg.

Right.

No, it's a big ceramic one. I've got a cheaper version, but the temperature control mechanisms are not. Are not as clever. Like, the big green egg is just incredible. But it costs about 1800 quid. It's just ridiculous. About 50 under it. If you want to get it on a stand, like a nice wooden table thing, it's about 1800.

Wow.

I'm just.

Yeah, I would see me pitching that to Emma. So I'm gonna go in feet first with this barbecue lark and.

Yeah, I mean, if you're gonna go in feet first, that is the one to go in feet first with, you know, that is the one.

That's Christmas coming up and things. We didn't touch any, but are you any good at football?

Yeah, well, I say, yeah. I mean, I play football. I played football all my life, really. It never. Never more than kind of, you know, got to like, sort of, you know, Saturday afternoon, you know, regional. Played for My town on a Saturday afternoon kind of thing, you know, I guess that's kind of one up from Sunday league.

Yeah.

But never any, you know, never any further than that.

What position did you play?

I started off up front when I was a kid and over the years just moved further and further and further back. Yeah, so I'm just about. I'm just about hanging on in a sort of deep field role at the moment. Yeah, I play for a veterans team in knutsford. And. But I did have done my hamstring on my knee over the last six months and, you know, that's coming to an end. I think realistically, Rachel used to, you know, Rachel. Rachel used to. I used to kind of argue that I needed. I needed football. I love it as like an escape, like a. Yeah, I could. I could leave Rachel and Freddie at home, you know, leave the chaos and I go and play football for two or three hours. You know how long it took? Always took a bit longer than maybe it should have done. But, yeah, Rachel, as you get older, you get. You get more and more and more injuries. And, yeah, she, she wasn't, Wasn't over the moon playing. You know, what if, what if you come back and you've broken your leg and you can't, you can't do this?

Yes, it sounds very familiar. I managed to break my ankle playing football when I worked in the city, so I would have to go on crutches. And this was in kind of October time, so the weather was bad and there was leaves on the ground up to the station on crutches. And it's pouring, so you can't hold an umbrella and do the crutches. And then I tried to get on the train, but if you've only got one leg, do you put the crutches on first or do you put the foot on? So I put the crutches on and they slid out in front of me and I was. I'd sit at my desk with my leg up, you know, especially up with two phones, trying to style it out. So it was. I got all the same there. Like, when are you going to stop all this stuff?

I mean, you just get more and more injuries, don't you, the older you get? But the older you get, the more you appreciate that. I think, as well. Yeah, I think when I was younger, you take it for granted you play football on a Sunday or a Saturday where you even. I had two games on a Saturday at one point, playing for two Saturday teams, one in the morning, one in the afternoon and you just couldn't play enough and you recover. Yeah, two Saturday teams, one Sunday morning team, you know, couldn't. Just couldn't play enough football, you know. But now, you know, I know that I've only got possibly, possibly not even any more time playing and having the side football. So, yes, I'm really grateful for it. But you definitely feel it the next day.

I will admit, and I'll happily say this publicly, but I'm still waiting for my call. Up from Jurgen, but, you know, now I'm close to 42.

He's a wonderful man, you know, we got to go. After Rachel died, somebody from the club got wind of the fact that I was a Liverpool supporter and they invited us to Melwood to go meet the team and meet the squad and it was just absolutely amazing. It was only a couple of months after she died, but it was just absolutely brilliant.

It was a special day.

Oh, it's just amazing. Like, you've been inside Melwood and. Yeah, just getting big hugs off Jurgen and only sort of negative was that we were going at 5 o', clock, which, as you know, with small children, that's a difficult time because that's around, like, your feeding time. Freddie was only three, I think, at the time, so he slept all the way there, 45 minutes to Melwood, and he woke up in a really, really, really bad mood and he hadn't any food. He was tired. It was a really cold night. So I'm trying to carry him in, you know, trying to let him enjoy a little football around. You know, Bobby Firmino is trying to tickle him and he's batting his hand off and saying, get off, get off. Daniel Sturridge is trying to play with him and he's just. Yeah, pushing him away.

Kids have no respect for fame and.

No, no. Yeah. But, you know, being Liverpool, it's funny. I've always really, really, really loved football, but after Rachel died, I just found myself not really that bothered. I just wasn't, you know, I was still kind of looking for results and stuff, but it didn't really. It didn't really bother me. What happened.

Yeah.

And then. Then. Do you remember that glorious night when we beat Barcelona 4 0?

Possibly the greatest comeback, but.

And I was watching my. Not possible. Yeah, possibly.

Yeah.

I was watching it at home by myself. And. And when was that? That was about a year ago, probably. Wasn't it, like, April, I imagine. And I just remember crying, like, just on the fourth goal. Went in, just crying and it was. It was such a glorious, glorious, glorious moment that, like, all of a sudden I just. I just loved football again. And it was. I tried to explain this to the girls on the podcast and they were just. Just looking at me with their mouth open. But, you know, but it had been, you know, been such a big part of my life and then all of a sudden wasn't. And it was. It was so wonderful to kind of, you know, feel that way again about football. It was. It was just. That was amazing.

Did you. Because I always say, you know, sport, any sport but you know, with football that we talk about can, you know, crosses the divide of people and you know, of countries and wealth and everything that goes with it. But sometimes it's hard to explain to some people how much it can mean to you. Yeah, I wondered then when you watched the final against Spurs. I was in an interesting situation because me being Liverpool supporter, I was at Emma's parents house in. And they live in Enfield so they're, they're all lifelong spurs fans, season ticket holders and they invited their friends around here. Obviously all spurs fans as well. So I was the only Liverpool supporter in the room. And it was a bit of an anti climax the final. I remember it was, it was, it was great but it kind of, I don't know, it just, it wasn't, you know, it's so hard to replicate anything like the Comeback.

We watched it in Salcombe in Devon actually. It was a really special place for Rachel and I. We go there every year. You know, she just absolutely loved it. It was a place that she wanted to go before she died. So we were there like a month before she died and you know, just. It was our kind of special place. And after she died we, I booked a big house and, and we got Rachel's mum, Rachel's brother, his partner, all my family, my sister, all of her kids. My parents there were like, I don't know what, 11 or 12 of us and we all went all into a big house in Salkhem and I booked it, not realizing what the date of the final was. And then because that was all booked I couldn't even think about going to Madrid. But it was nice to watch it in a place that was, you know, so important. And they were in this pub and there were, there were a lot of Tottenham fans who all went very quiet after about 30 seconds or whatever it was.

It's so funny how the contrasting emotions like that for you know, when you win you're elated and when you lose it's, you know, it's despair. I wondered where you were on the night when Liverpool won the Champions League. You know, back in the Istanbul final in 05.

Yeah, I was actually at a friend of mine's house in East Wittering in Down on the south coast and at Chichester. And he's not in any way into football whatsoever. And I can't for the life of me think why I watched it there. I have no idea because there was me and these other two guys now they're just not into football. And I have no idea why. I watched it back and remember after we won, his house is right by the beach and we literally ran out the back door of his house straight into the water. It was just glorious. What a moment.

I always love the stories of what that is one of those where were you moments, not necessarily for everybody in the country, but for, for a lot of football fans, because I remember watching Man United come back against Bayern Munich and celebrating because it was incredible. I nearly had a nasty business there because I was on a business trip out in Budapest and I went to the pub that evening and when Liverpool were 3 nil down, I said to the big group of business people, I said, I'm going to go. Because I was flying off to Italy the next morning and I literally went up to go to loo and got back and the guy said, oh, I didn't realize you were going, I've got you another pint. And I was like, I said, you know what, I'll just finish my pint and then I'll go. And it was just as I was finished my pint that the first goal went in. And can you imagine though, waking up next morning for your flight and you know, getting to the airport and then seeing the, seeing the headlines and missing it.

You would have been. Well, I, I've had a bit of history of that. I left early. I was on field for the derby last year when Dival Karigi scored in the 95th minute and I'd left at 90 minutes. Yeah, I was just outside the ground when I heard the roar. Crushing, crushing.

And it's funny, is it? Because I'm sure you've done the same where you. Hold on, hold on, just in case and nothing happens and you get caught up in other people. And it's that one time, I'll admit, you know, when the West Ham FA cup final, I think it was 3, 2 down. Wasn't it just with, with.

I was in Budapest watching that game actually.

Right. And I, I left because I couldn't phase watching, you know, Liverpool hand and the FA cup over. So I left and I drove down to play football. When I arrived and the guy got out and said, wasn't that an amazing game? Oh, no, that's it. He said, oh, one. The penalties. Great. I said, what?

So we're, we're learning, but absolutely amazing.

Well, hopefully at some point when, when life returns to normal, we'll get to, to meet up somehow to either watch a game or paddle boarding or something.

Or do a tough mudder.

Yeah, yeah, I'D love to.

Yeah.

I'll get back into that. Well, I ended up doing. I represented Team UK in the World Championships in America.

Oh, wow.

And that was great. But it was around. I kind of got. That was after four years of doing it and it was great, but I just got to a stage where I was like. I got bored of it. It's funny just after that.

So, I mean, once you get bored of that, I don't know what you do. Ultramarathons next.

I'm not sure why we did after that. We kind of just moved up. We moved out to the Cotswolds and then kind of, you know, life took a strange turn. But, yeah, it's funny, isn't it, how you can be besotted with something and then like that, it just. It switches off. But now I would have the hunger to go and do it again. So perhaps, perhaps we'll pick one that's not too. Not too far.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. You come down to my level. You come down to me.

It's all about the right shot.

We'll get Robin doing it as well.

Oh, I'd love to. I'd pay to see Robin.

I mean, he could just literally lift us over the obstacles.

Yeah. I mean, there's no point with the monkey bars with him, is there, to be honest.

But.

That would be a sight to behold. Well, I'll let you go. One thing I was going to ask at the end was about if there was one piece of advice you could give a guy to do life better, what would it be?

I think what I said to you earlier on, focus on the stuff you can affect. Focus on the things that you can actually have an impact on and try and work out, if you can, a way of being okay with the rest of it, you know, the stuff that you can't affect, what can you do? You know, let it go. You know, just work on. Work on doing the best that you can in the stuff that you can affect, I think is the. Is the thing that has helped me the most, I would say, over the last 18 months.

That's great. And we're always trying to say, extract from people that we speak to, these little golden nuggets. And I always think the important thing is a lot of them come round to, you know, if you hear a lot of the same thing, it should tell guys that. That's because it's important as it. And it works, which I think, you know, we're big into working and helping people with their mindset. And as you said it's, it's, it's understanding those things that day to day, and not just long term, day to day can really help you. Yeah, well, also, just to acknowledge you for, firstly, for coming on the podcast and spending what we've done, an hour and a half, which is, which is, which is a good effort. And also, you know, for you as a, as a dad, I think it's so important that you're, you know, doing your best in what has been a challenging time and reminds all the guys listening that we're going to get thrown stuff in life. You know, often you don't get to choose what it is, but that's it.

I mean, look, people said after Rachel died, you know, it's so, you know, it's brave doing this or it's brave doing that. You, what option do you have, you know, when. When you're chucked into that situation, you know, through no fault of your own, what option do you have, you know? Well, you know, you only have two, really. You curl up in a ball and you, and you put your fingers in your ears and you close your eyes and you forget. You try and forget it's all happening, or you roll your sleeves up and have a go and try and kind of salvage whatever you can out of the wreckage and, you know, try and get something positive out of it. And that's, that's what I've tried to do.

I think it's a, it's a great message and, you know, we'll make sure we're touching on the points of this when we're, we're posting on social media because often people need to hear this from people that have gone through it to understand that there are people out there that understand, you know, how challenging it can be.

I hope it, you know, I hope. I know when. I know when Rachel died, I, I looked for people a bit, you know, ahead of me and in a similar journey. The guy called Simon Thomas is a good friend of mine whose wife Gemma died. He's a Blue Peter presenter. His wife Gemma died of acute myeloid leukemia just under a year before Rachel. And you know, having someone like him who, you know, I could look at and say, right, he's a year or so ahead of me, but he looks like he's sort of getting it together, you know, really helped. And I would love it, you know, if I could be that person for someone else that they're going through, like a really tough time and they look at, you know, I haven't got all the answers by Any stretch, you know, I don't have a pretend to, but I'm doing okay. And if, you know, if anybody's listening and they've, you know, they're right in the middle of it, having a really tough time. Promise you, it does get easier. It does get better.

Now, it's so important, I think, that people hear that because I always say your mood or sometimes what you're going through can be a bit like the weather. And when you're in the eye of the storm, it's hard to remember that there can be sunny days again.

Yeah, that's so true. So true. And I think, like I said, I always found it helpful to look at people in my situation a little bit further ahead who, you know, had made it out in one piece and, you know, we're getting it together and, you know, it does get easier.

It's what, is what people need to hear, I think. And also for guys who, you know, are going to face these issues as opposed to just, you know, have to have dealt with it, I think it's.

Yeah, yeah, that's so true. I've had quite a lot of messages actually, from guys in either in my position or whose wives are ill, you know, maybe my position in the future. And, you know, I think guys do, they sort of do want to talk. They don't always have an outlet. That's why something like the whole man academy is, you know, such a great thing to give, you know, give men an opportunity and a, you know, way of expressing it, a way of talking about things. And yeah, like I said, I do get messages from people. They just don't know where to, where to turn. They don't know who to talk to about these things. They can't talk to their mates because the mates don't understand. And I think, you know, we just all need to get. Look, you know, we're, you know, none of us are getting out of here alive, are we? So we may as well, you know, we may as well, you know, accept that, you know, start talking about it, you know, and I think only by talking about it can we start to, you know, really kind of make the best of whatever time we've got.

Yeah, nice. That's why, as you said at the start, at the top of the show, touching on some sometimes difficult topics, but important ones, you know, can, can help guys to just, just, just deal with what, what we're going through a little bit better, which let's, let's hope so.

Yeah, fingers crossed.

And what's your plan now? Straight to bed.

Glass of wine?

Think of the same. Are you up early tomorrow?

I hope not. Yeah, you never quite know, dear.

No, I'll be in the gym at 6, so I'll.

Oh, mate, no chance. Obviously. That's the thing. I can't do that anyway. Well, I've really missed, actually, the last seven weeks being able to go cycling and being able to just get out, and it just been. Me and Freddie haven't been able to do that, so. Yeah, I'm yearning for that. Fingers crossed. Not too long now.

Well, on that bombshell, we've covered all the important topics, not least Liverpool and barbecuing as well. So, Steve, thanks very much and hopefully we will speak to you very soon.

Yeah, thanks for having me along.

Thanks, Steve.