EP032 - How to have a word with yourself - Jim Brown

So this is the whole Man Academy podcast. I am Anthony Asprey. My guest today is the wonderful Jim Brown. Jim is a CEO of Round 8, which we were going to get on to later but is, let's call it a recruitment company, but it's a lot more than that. Founder and a coach of ground and air, which again we're going to touch on. But that's about coaching, development, insights, working with boards, directors and emerging talent, which I know we can all take some skills from and some thoughts and ideas and Jim, welcome to the whole Man Academy podcast. How are you sir? And where are you?

I'm good, thanks, Anthony. No, I'm in southeast London. I'm in Dulwich Village which is my home and yeah, I'm alright today. I had a walk around the park and did a bit of prep for this. Yep, so far so good.

The sun's shining, I guess. And how's it affected you with lockdown? Have you been fine working from home? And I know you've got a family as well.

Have I been fine working from home? It depends who I'm comparing myself to. No, we're fine. I mean, I kick one of my sons out of his bedroom but we've got a spare room for him. So that's. This has become my man cave and I've kind of hung, you know, Nigel Ben, boxing gloves up here and all sorts. I'm quite enjoying that, having a man cave but being in the house and you know, being told what to do all the time by my wife and, and this list of jobs and things is not ideal and business wise, you know, it's tough. My recruitment business is flatlining at the moment. Coaching business is doing well. So yeah, it depends what morning you catch me on. Really?

Yeah, I think that kind of echo that with a lot of the guys that we spoke to either through the whole Man Academy podcast and. Or zoom calls is one of the things was that a lot of guys were forced to work from home without any real preparation. So as opposed to saying I've got a dedicated workspace, it was like, let's clear out a spare room or you know, one of the guys is working in your shed. Because if you've got kids around and you know, partners and everything, it's, it's tough to. Some of those blurred lines between you're at work or you're at home.

I mean, you probably talked about it with other guests, but it's totally blurred, like blurred lines, you know, I mean, I've never worked a weekend in my Entire career and it's just been a rule of mine. We've worked hard, worked late at times, but never worked a weekend. And you know, until now and then now it's all just a complete blurb.

Yeah.

But you know, needs must.

Yeah.

Nice seeing more of the kids than I was. Which is great.

I was gonna say there's the. There's, as we know, a bit about mindset. There's. There's the positives and the negatives from it and you can decide which ones you focus on. I know, I know. When I was recording a podcast the other day and our little one was banging on the door because he wanted to tell me that lunch was ready and you're just like, just take a breath and just, you know, the recording's not ruined, but we're learning. Well, let's get into it with. Firstly, it was about round eight and I touched on it in the introduction that it's more than a recruitment company. But what I loved when I read about it was when you said we introduce world leading talent to world leading companies.

Yeah. So it is a recruitment company in the sense that we find talent for businesses and we charge the businesses for that. We have an exec search arm now which focuses more at senior level and some of that, a lot of that's retained business. So I guess we're kind of a hybrid between an exec search firm and a recruitment business. We basically find commercial and operational people for media companies, mainly publishers, but also media agencies and technology businesses. So we deal with lots of different publishers, everyone from Hearst and Microsoft to Vice and Refinery 29. So huge, huge range across business and consumer, but mainly consumer.

And I know you said with. Obviously it's been affected at the moment because what is the state of recruitment? Has everybody just kind of shut down and just doing their own thing for the moment and that it's now waking up again?

It's such a big industry. I mean it's about. It's a 33 billion pound industry in the UK alone. So it's hard for me to give you a useful answer around that because there are just so many different sectors. My sector has been completely torpedoed by this for now and it was a sector that was already being squeezed. It's hard to think of what sectors are booming now, apart from, you know, some areas of tech. But you know, it will come back. I mean, it will come back. Who the hell knows at the moment when. But you know, we've been through this before a few times, not this but you know, we Launched. Yeah, I mean we launched round eight in when I came out of university actually just in the 90s recession and then we launched round eight just as the dot com boom was about to happen and then we had 911 which just everything stopped for a while and then global financial crisis. So I feel, you know, feel at least we've got some experience to kind of draw from.

Yeah, no, it's an interesting time for a lot of people and a good example was a chap I was speaking to who's very, very high up in a big company and he moved literally just before, you know, kind of lockdown to another firm and he's on a very big salary and he feels really embarrassed now because he can't cultivate relationships and go to London and meet new clients and what have you because you know you're not allowed to. So I know there's. For some guys, especially for someone like him, it was actually really hard because you're at home knowing you're being paid a big salary and being slightly embarrassed by it because you can't actually do much.

I mean, you know, who knows where his head's at. But that must be really hard, particularly when you relying on building relationships at the new firm to, to secure your job. Must be really, really difficult.

Yes.

It's not quite the same as saying she jump on zoom for a beer later on and I guess for yourself. One of the questions that came into my head when I was looking at your background was how do you find world leading talent? Do the people come to you or do you kind of go looking for it?

Well, we've been trading for just shy of 21 years so obviously we come into contact with lots of people at different levels and we've kept that contact going. Finding talent is easy now. You know, LinkedIn is just a wonderful tool for that. I think identifying the talent that's really relevant for a business is a lot of where the skill comes in in recruitment. And then engaging with people who are used to being called lots by various other recruitment businesses again is kind of part of the art. And then managing the process so that the right person joins the right business with the right expectations so that they stay and enjoy it on the right terms so the business and then feel that they have value. That's when the work comes in, I.

Guess, and I guess for all of us. Times are changing. As you say, so much stuff is online now. Are you finding with the business on the recruitment side that you're changing your working practices? Because surely previously before COVID before lockdown, a lot of it was done face to face. Whereas now being able to utilize Zoom means that actually your reach becomes even greater.

Yeah. So I guess there are positives and negatives to that. Recruitment is one of those industries that it's quite easy to move to a virtual world, in a sense. And we were looking at each other and, you know, it's. We're all learning how to kind of build that chemistry and that understanding of each other through this medium, aren't we? So there's a challenge there. But actually, fundamentally, I can still ask you all the questions about what's important to you, where you want to go, what your talents are, how you want to apply them, and I can talk you through the options that we have available and the routes you've taken already and do all of that like this. So that's why there's so many bloody recruitment companies, because, you know, before Zoom, people could set up in their back bedrooms and pick up the phone and do business.

Yeah. Yeah.

I guess, like, some of the things, there's an easy entry point. You know, it doesn't necessarily mean they're any good at it, but, yeah, things have changed. Well, I know when, again, looking at your background, one of the things was about building teams for global brands. So for guys listening to this, how would he learn to build a team either professionally or personally? Like, what are the tips that you would give on building a team?

When you say personally, what do you.

Just for, let's say, I'm very much a believer in your kind of the sum of the five people you hang around with and having, you know, a group, even if it's a group that maybe, you know, these days you do a Zoom call with, like, once a month, but just means that there's a couple helping you stay accountable, but possibly more so in business, on building a team in the right way about it.

Well, I think, first of all, and this is a mistake I think certainly I've made in hiring people is be really, really clear on what you're looking for. Be really, really clear on the skill set that you absolutely need now and the behaviors of the person that you employ, the kind of behaviors that you want them to display in a business. I'll talk about the business first, if that's okay.

Yeah.

So be really, really clear on that. Get really clear on what your options are. And you don't need to use a recruitment consultant for that. I think the Internet's a wonderful thing. So do your research. So walking into that conversation, you're Very, very clear about the context in which that person's working now. And also credible in your approach because you understand where they are and what they do and what makes them less potentially relevant for you. So that's kind of stage one, I think. You know, use your network if you have one, warm that call up before you get on the call as much as you can. So you know, find common ground, find connections that you both have in common if possible and then, you know, as soon as possible on that call, get an understanding of where they sit and what they want before you start promoting anything to them. And be prepared to. It's a long answer to this, be prepared for them reflecting all those questions back on you, you know, and have a decent answer for those and have a real answer. Because I think hiring now is so much more about a partnership. It's so much more about two people, the employer and the employee, the leader and the team member, reaching some consensus about what's important to each other. And that's particularly important with Gen Y people because they, you know, they expect to be involved. They want a cause, they want to know what you stand for. So be really, really clear on that.

Right?

There's more.

But yeah, no, I think that's why it's funny we might said before we started recording. It's sometimes it's especially when you're reading your bio, there's, there's so much, and this is why I love infing people. There's so much that we could talk about. The hard bit is what do you leave out? So we could end up doing a three hour podcast but so I wonder with, with yourself and you've certainly, you know, worked for work with some really big companies and what, what's worked for you to stay. Stay current, stay motivated, stay whatever your level of success is over the years.

Big old question. I mean stay well, two, probably two separate things in a way. I think staying current is about keeping on top of your market and reading the right stuff. Ask. You know, to me, I don't really like reading all day. We have a tremendous opportunity as recruitment people to learn about a myriad of different businesses, about how they're structured, about what makes them successful, about who fits best in that environment and who doesn't. So staying current really is about asking your candidates that information and asking enough people from different environments to, to get a sense of balance on what your attitude to those firms are. So that's, I think staying current, that's what that's about. I mean my market, that's been very much about keeping across all the technologies. So, you know, we worked with Bebo and Facebook, Bebo and MySpace, for example, when they were the precursors of Facebook.

Yeah.

For companies like AskJeeves before, which was kind of early search engine in a way, before Google turned up. So it's, you know, making the. Your. It's picking the right horses and also looking who's. Who's coming up behind them.

How do you cope with that at the moment? Because, I mean, things are moving so quickly and you know, you're. Even if you looked at social media and you take companies like TikTok, which have just exploded in the last year.

Or two.

What sources do you use to kind of keep up with what's going on and what's developing?

Well, again, it's back to networks. So the guy who runs TikTok, the bit of TikTok that's relevant to my market, works at Microsoft and I dealt with him a bit there and before that he worked somewhere else. And so it's a really bad example. I'm not in touch with him and I very well should be. Right. But it's just, it's working your network again, it's. I missed the nub of your question, Anthony. Sorry. How do you keep up with it?

Yeah, just because there's so many different companies around, especially with, you know, with the launch of 5G, now you've got blockchain technology and you've got different apps and. Yeah. Just wondered kind of if someone was trying to get a handle on, you know, all these different companies coming up. Was there kind of a one website or one place that you kind of go to to try and keep track of all these?

No, no, there isn't really. You've just got to keep your radar up and read a lot and ask the people in the industry what they read and read that and then read outside of that. So you've got something new to add to the conversation. Yeah, you know, it's a head fat. There's lots to get across.

Yeah, yeah.

Just as you know, before, before TikTok there was Snap. And I think if you knew enough about Snap, then you knew broadly what the, what the concept of TikTok was. And then it's about, I guess, and I haven't even done it yet, but it's approaching TikTok and saying, look, you know, we know Snap and we know X, Y and Z and this is what we feel you could add. Having already asked the question, what could we add now?

It's a. It's a new world, especially for us guys that are anywhere near 40 and above. We haven't grown up with these. And, you know, it always makes you laugh when I've got friends in their 20s who can put a picture of their shoe on and it will get, you know, 500 likes, whereas some businesses are working hard on it and getting, you know, a tenth of that or something. So it's.

Yeah, do you know what? And you're right. And I'm, you know, I'm 10 years old. But, you know, in your day it was ringtones and wasn't it probably Crazy Frog? Exactly. And people my age would go, is anybody dealing with pain, however much they were for Crazy Frog? So, yeah, it's all a bit. It all seems a bit ridiculous when you, when you, when you're looking at it afresh. But there are parallels with what's come before. Action men were ridiculous, right?

Mm.

The word Tamagotchi came to mind.

But that's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mine flew out the window of my car as I went around a roundabout. But that's, you know, it still, still hurts to this day.

And there were the odd report of a suicide because Tamagotchi got switched off. I mean, you know, God help them if they, if they were true reports.

But, yeah, God help me if they're looking, looking at their likes on Instagram and linking their, you know, their, their self worth to their likes. Or as we say, well, going on. One of the interesting things about the whole man academy was about guys in the UK and for want of a better word, personal development. And I know you, obviously working with ground and air, it's coaching and helping firms evaluate experienced emerging talent. But for yourself, where are you with the personal development of yourself and then with companies that you're working with? Because in the US it's such a big business. But in the uk, it's funny how you'll talk about personal development and no particular names come to mind that are kind of the big names in it. So I just wondered for yourself, with personal development, where you are with it.

Yeah, well, we chat about this, didn't we, off air before, actually. Off air, Would you still say off air, apparently, about Tony Robbins and how there isn't really a kind of big Tony Robbins figure in the uk? I mean, where am I on my own personal development? I mean, I've always really enjoyed that. I've enjoyed that since pre college, I think. So it's always just been part of my activity. And I don't mean that I Read a business book every day. I don't. I really don't. But my first real experience of personal development, I guess, was getting very involved with NLP about 12 years ago. Neuro linguistic programming, which is a kind of an approach which is often used in life coaching. And I love that. I just thought it was fascinating. And then I guess I kind of knitted that into my leadership style in running round eight here with our Sydney business. And then I kind of heard a lot about cbt, Cognitive behavior therapy and health service, picked up on that in a big way and invested a lot in that as a kind of method to help lots of people get off antidepressants. The thinking's changed slightly on that now, but that was my first kind of experience of cognitive behavior therapy. So I trained as a cognitive behavior coach. So I'm not a therapist, and I haven't been through the years and years of training that it takes to be a therapist. But cognitive behavior coaching uses a lot of the same principles to help individuals and businesses to think. People to think more healthily and productively about their circumstances. And through thinking more healthily and productively, to act in more kind of generative ways, and through doing that, to feel better about themselves or about their circumstances.

Where would you start with that, then? If you say. If we make it easy by saying it's an individual as opposed to a company, which I always find is slightly more difficult because company's made up of various parts. But if it's an individual, where do you. Where do you kind of start with coaching them through. Again, it's not about the therapy, but it's kind of applying some of it to helping them lead a, you know, a happier life.

Where would I. Where would I apply this?

Where would you start with trying to help them by applying CBT or your version of it, as it were?

Yeah, cbc. So, I mean, it starts with assuming that something's bothering them in some way, which is where this technique is most relevant, really. It starts with getting an understanding of the way that they're seeing that situation. So if someone's anxious about an upcoming presentation, it's understanding what specifically they're feeling anxious about. So that's the. We talk about the kind of activating event, and the activating event in that context would be thinking about presenting in front of 100 people. And then we'd look at the feeling for a minute and understand actually how that feeling was manifesting itself for someone. So, you know, well, you know, I'm waking up in the middle of the Night, I'm, you know, I'm just feeling really anxious. I get cold sweats, etc. We don't really dwell on that. We then start to look at the, what they call the attitude, the basic attitude belief about that upcoming event that according to cbc is responsible for the feeling. Okay, that makes sense. So the belief might be, I absolutely cannot fail at this. It could be anything. It could be, you know, I absolutely have to be the best at this straight away. For example. So I mean, this is a really, really kind of boiled down version of this. But really then we, then we, then we sort of switch to, well look, let's, let's, let's think of the worst. Which sounds quite counterintuitive, but it's saying to someone, well look, you know what, what is your big fear about that presentation? Well, it's just actually that few people who might think it's terrible say, well what if X percentage of the room thought it was terrible?

Yeah.

And get them to actually face that. And often that often, not always, but often that decatastrophizes it to a certain degree because they don't necessarily think that all 100 people are going to start throwing rotten eggs at them and telling them that they're terrible. But so, you know, and they're tolerant of that. They're tolerant of maybe a handful of people not liking it, but not necessarily all. So the whole point of this really is to in the end get to a point where we're really kind of deconstructing what we would say is a fairly kind of rigid attitude around that activating event. And from that, encourage them to soften that attitude to something that's a little bit more real, bit more realistic. And that might be, I absolutely cannot fail that anything is the rigid attitude behind that. And we get them to a point through and it might take some time where they're saying, you know, I really prefer to be brilliant at everything straight away, but I accept that that's not feasible. And if we can just get them to do that, then actually the subsequent thinking that, the thinking that follows that softer attitude is more productive, more constructive because it takes them from a place of going. If I absolutely have to be brilliant at this straight away, and if I'm not, I'm an idiot, they're never going to reinstruct me. Covered in rotten fruits. It takes me to a place that says it's possible that this might not work as I'd like it and I prefer to be brilliant straight away. But actually in getting in, making it Most likely that I'll do the best performance I'm able to at this stage. There are some things I can do about that. Such a long answer.

No, I'll tell you why. Because it's running through the stages of it in your head, as you say. I know for a lot of people it's kind of. It's the movie that they're running in their mind of what they think is going to happen. And I know going back to work in the city, we didn't have to give many presentations, but I have friends who, you know, they had fairly senior positions, but they hated standing up and talking in front of people. And it's funny how, you know, they would. It would be like a paralyzing fear that they knew exactly what they were talking about, but they perhaps weren't focusing on the fact that they were delivering value to other people. And of course, it would affect people's career. So your answer is great, because I think for guys listening, it just reminds you that there are things that can be done and that can shape your career, can't it, if you're unable to get up and address a team or a bigger group or a whole company.

Yeah, I agree. And there are, I think, the rational part of our minds when we're faced with something that we're concerned about, where we're anxious about rather than concern, because, you know, concern is a healthy. It's a healthy negative emotion, actually. You don't want. It's unrealistic to expect someone who's shitting themselves about a presentation in front of 100 people to suddenly not caring about it. Yeah, that's, that's, that's just trying to apply some kind of pop psychology psychology, you know, positive mental attitude thing. Just don't think about it, avoid it. In other words, just bury it or manner or whatever. And what I love about cognitive behavior coaching is that it's very, very realistic and it's encouraging people to have really fair conversations with themselves. Accurate, fair conversations. And fair means not soft, but also not too harsh. And accepting that. Actually, I guess adopting an attitude that says how I behave about how I feel and how I think and how I behave about. This largely tracks back to how I view it. And there are alternative views to this that I could adopt with practice that would be so much more helpful to my ultimate performance.

Does that come down to reframe? Like, are you then facilitating a reframe of what they're thinking?

Yeah, it's a really good question. You're encouraging. There is an element of reframing, depending on how you define reframing, but it's not just. It's not just reframing it from good to bad or it's dealing with the attitudes. It's dealing with that attitude first. And from that, someone is in a better position to reframe. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, God, people spend years studying cognitive behavior therapy and coaching, so I hope that's adequate enough description. But it is. It's certainly very different to just your standard PMA stuff, but it can encourage really, really quick shifts. And one of the shifts that I love, one of the techniques that use, which is nothing like mind blowing, is if someone is talking about negatively about themselves or a situation and damning themselves as being inadequate or not good enough or whatever, then it's always going to happen to them. And they're just in a very kind of pessimistic state about something is actually to encourage them to think, well, look, if your son or your best friend came to you and described things exactly as you've described them to me, what would you say to them? What would be fair and accurate? And often they come out with the same kind of stuff that a coach or a dad or a mum or whoever would say, you know, but it's because it's come from them. They think, actually, no, that's. That, that's, that's. That's fairer.

I'll tell you what, I think that's.

It's.

It's a powerful. Let's call it a tool, for want of a better word. But I know I've seen it where one of the events I went to, you know, one, if you had a big challenge, they would say, right, just step out here and tell me what the challenge is. And then who's someone that you see as a hero or a mentor? And then imagine you're stepping into that person's shoes and what advice would they give to you? And of course, it's so funny how people go, oh, well, that's easy. Do this, this, this and this. Yes, okay, so just step back into yourself a minute and you're like, oh, oh, yeah, okay, I knew that anyway. Yes.

Yeah, but it might. But some people, again, I do a lot of work around identity, actually.

Right.

Linked with all of this. And it could well be that you encourage someone to do that. And then they'd say, yeah, but I can't do that because that's, you know, I'm not Anthony. Anthony's brilliant at that. You know, he does the podcast. I Couldn't do a podcast then how could I? And it's like unpicking that identity, those, those self limiting beliefs at identity level.

I was just going to say you go down the route then of limiting beliefs. And that's a new, that's a new workshop in itself, isn't it?

Well, again, you're doing the Gary Lineker here, aren't you? I know you're a really experienced coach, so you're asking all the questions here. You must just want to kind of jump in with your own views on this.

Well, I tell you, for me it's great. I mean, firstly, you're more experienced than I am and I only work with individuals, whereas you're working with companies. And one of the things that for anybody listening, or even for myself, is you're absorbing the information and even if you know some of it, sometimes people even reframe it or just give you that something else that you're like, yeah, I hadn't thought of that. And I'll tell you why that's great with one of the things you had written on your, one of your bios was helping people have the conversations they most need to have with themselves and others. And that's huge, I think, because a lot of people are often either in relationships or in business aren't having the conversations they need to have, either because they want to be liked or they're scared of the outcome.

Yeah, I totally agree.

How do you start with that or what, you know, where do you even go with that to start with, with helping people?

Well, again, it depends on the context really, but I think it starts with the goal. It's like, what, you know, what are they trying to achieve? What does an outcome really look like? And I think we're not great. A lot of us aren't great. I'm not great at being really, really clear on outcomes. Most of us, even the kind of ones that come across as being pretty driven. And I know this from interviewing a lot of them for all these companies we've hired for, when you really, really unpick that, they're not necessarily that clear on it. They might say, you know, success to me is getting the next promotion. You say, well, where does that, where's that come from? What makes that important to you? And it's kind of because they saw a promotion opportunity on a, you know, in the company and they think it'd be a good idea. Yeah, because at an identity level, they've just identified with being, you know, a thrusting, ambitious executive. And that may be the Case that might be a good reason, it might be, you know, it might might be a great thing that they take that promotion. But I think most of us at times have sleepwalked through parts of our careers or parts of individual conversations with ourselves or with others without really thinking about what the goal is. So first of all, start with that step that up to something that's meaningful. So if you can find more meaning in what you're doing in the goal that you have, then that makes it really compelling for you. That's the kind of start of it. And then it's kind of tracking back to actually now, how do I execute this? How do I ensure that I make this happen? Do I have enough resources at my own disposal now to do it or do I need help? Have I got the skills and the knowledge appropriate to do that now? Do I know how to get those? Do I know who to ask or where to, where to turn to? Am I prepared to do that? Is the goal important enough to me? So am I genuinely motivated to do it? And who else is involved in this? How do I get them to come along with me, support me, you know, challenge me so that what produces the quality that I identified as important to me, etc. So it's a really, it's all.

But it's, you know, you hit on the first one which was. What's the phrase? I'm trying to start with why.

Yeah, well, I like what makes actually. Which rather than a what the why. I mean we all say why a lot more than what makes, don't we? But I think a why sometimes can get someone into it, into a mindset where they're justifying their decision or their proclamation.

Right?

Yeah, I think of what makes like a really. If you really ask you to calibrate how you ask this, if you ask somebody about what makes that important to them, you often get kind of richer information.

I've just learned something. Thank you. Because that's great. You know, with the start with why reminds me of my 3 year old saying why to everything. You know, can you come here, why can do this? Why, why, why? And actually I can find it taxing on the brain. But as you say, just changing the language and creating a, for want of a better word, a beautiful question can bring out different results. And what about. I know you said sometimes with people it's trying not to be too hard on them, but not be too soft on them. So how if you, if you were and he said poaching, that's different to coaching. If you were coaching an individual, you know, where do, where do you stand on demanding they get work done? Or do you say, look, it's up to you and you know, do you ask them to kind of report back to you?

And I mean it depends on the, depends on the coaching contract really. So a lot of work I do is in a business setting. So although I'm dealing with individuals, I do deal with teams as well, often deal with individuals and we end up talking about their lives as well as their work. The business is often paying me. So some businesses will offer coaching services at senior level a lot, but sometimes mid level too. Just entrust the coach and the coachee to work on whatever's helpful for that person. And a lot of my work is that. And I love, I mean I love both, but I love that because that's just the business saying we trust, we're backing up our individual, the person that we put into coaching and whatever's good for them is good for the business. So often we get that completely free rein in that situation. Then you'd be saying to the coachee what's important to you, you know, really, really what's important to you. But sometimes a business will, because it's not cheap, will come with an issue. You know, they've got someone who they want more from or who, yeah, they want more from in some way they want them to change in some way they might want them to kind of step up into a more senior position and take people with them, for example. And in that situation you've kind of got to get the buy in of the coachee, otherwise it's certainly going to be short term and games you get in short term. So then it's about kind of, well, first of all agreeing three way that that's what you're going to work on and then getting the coachee on their own and saying, look, how does this, how does this work for you? And you know, and sometimes it doesn't. And that's when you've got to be very clear and boundaries with both parties about what's confidential and what isn't and where somebody's moved from a company. Because actually what the boss wants isn't what they're prepared, isn't what they're prepared to deliver or isn't what they're able to deliver. But most of the time, because they're investing in people that they value, you can build a consensus between the coachee and the business. And that's again back to ensuring that the goal, the goal for the Business might be different to the goal, to the person. The goal to the business might be getting more money from that person. Right. Being more productive. The goal for the person might be being promoted. Well, if they're doing the right things for the business, they should be making more money. And if they're doing the right things for the business should be promoted. So you can just start to sort of bridge between, between the objectives of the business and the person, where you can.

Yeah, so it's trying to. I was trying to think the word there, but I'm trying to find some alignment between the two. So they're both working towards the same thing. Yeah.

Or at least, you know, they don't necessarily have to be working towards the same thing. They need to both get the outcomes that they want. And that's that, that's where there's a. That's where the kind of negotiation and the, the unpicking of, of the concerns and the unpicking of the real goals and setting really specific goals, that's where that comes in. But people coaching is different to training. Right. You've got to start with somebody being bought into it. And actually if you assume that that person has most of the resources, if not all of the resources, or to do what they need to do, coach's job is to help, guide, support them to get there. But they don't want to go. They're not going to go.

Yeah, yeah, I guess you can nudge people in the right direction. But does that also come down to the. What I've seen sometimes the confusion between a coach, a consultant and a mentor. So I always think as a mentor is someone who has trodden the path and has done what you want to do. Consultant is maybe bought into, you know, how could it deal with a problem. And a coach is about extracting the answers that you already have within you.

I mean, that's a really beautiful description. I agree with you. I guess, you know, probably the same when you're coaching people. It's. You can, you can end up doing a mixture of all of those things. And in a coaching context, as long as you're explicit that that's, you've agreed that that's something that they're open to and the people who are paying you see that as relevant. But I mean, there's certainly there are various different coaching techniques. Mine typically is more active directive than some, but it depends. Some people just, just want to be asked the right kinds of questions. They want to own all their own solutions. Some people are lost sometimes and they just want somebody who's outside the organization, who's, you know, who they feel knows them and knows what they're up against to just give them some. A bit of advice or a bit of a clue or, you know, a bit of a steer. And I don't. I just don't get too heat up on the titles, you know. Yes, it's got to work for the person, but if you're in a coaching situation and you're talking as much as I'm doing on this, Jesus, you've blown it because you're not coaching. You're just telling.

I guess it's that. What's the saying everybody could do with just talking to a lamppost, because often some of the guys that have done coaching will say that they've actually just kind of felt like they've sat and listened for 80% of the time, and the person will have run through there, I can't do this. Well, I guess I could do this. Well, I could do this. When could I do this? And suddenly they found their solution. But maybe, as we know, it's, you know, listening is a skill in itself, big time.

Yeah, really, really. You've got to, you know, some people are brilliant at it to start with, but I think most of us got to learn when to shut up, you.

Know, so, no, I was gonna say for you, going through, going through the career you've had, who do you talk to? I mean, going back to the reason why we're together here is talk about the whole man academy we're always about. I always think if you're a young guy listening to this and go back to myself and my friends and I know none of us had anybody to talk to.

Sorry.

We did have people to talk to. We didn't talk to them because we thought either they didn't want to listen or we didn't know how to start a conversation. But for yourself, I just wondered, going through the years you've been working as a professional doing coaching and development, et cetera, like, how have you found it with having someone to talk to, if at all?

I mean, I mean. I mean, coaching supervision, which. And actually, if somebody's considering coaching, I think it's a really good question to ask a coach is, are they in supervision? Because there's an investment in that. And, you know, I think it demonstrates that they're prepared to invest and that they're keeping learning and keeping trying to keep themselves on track. So I do that. And I mean, I'm very lucky. I've got a Real. He's a complete guru, actually in counseling and cognitive behavior therapy. I've been supervised by Professor Windy Dryden is his name. Strange name. And he's published over 234 books, I think now.

Wow.

All on. Mainly on feelings. And I really recommend them. And I'm not plugging it. He's still 30 books already, but. So he's a counsel that I keep. Over the years, I've done a lot of self development. As I said, the honest answer is over a career. I haven't done enough of it. I'm a Northeast boy originally. I'm 50 years old and probably making an excuse for myself. My generation didn't tend to do that. I'm now much more aware of the value of coaching and just. Just having like older mentors, just people who just get you and care about you and want the best for you. But I'm probably not the best example of someone who's got a huge network of those. I'm honest.

I guess sometimes you just need one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you do. I tend to sort of get. Sounds a bit weird, but I get different things from different people. So on the coaching side, I've definitely scoured Europe really for the best people to learn from. So I've worked under Judith Lowe, who's one of the top NLP practitioners around Wendy Dryden for cognitive behavior coaching. I've kind of sat under the wing a little bit of Martin Newman, who's an emotional intelligence expert. You know, I did a sports science degree at Loughborough at a time when Graham Jones was the chief psychologist there.

Yeah.

And he went on to launch Lane four, which is a major performance coaching organization. So I've definitely kind of looked for really, really good people to learn from. And then I've done what everybody, you know, I walk around the park with a bloody audible on and do all that stuff. Like, I'm not sure how much of it goes in, but try.

Should try listening to it overnight when you're asleep and it slowly goes in.

That's honestly just driving nuts. It's not my learning style at all.

Learning while sleeping. Well, it's funny, actually. It leads me on to my next question, which you just mentioned those words, emotional intelligence, and probably a lot of people will just go, oh, yeah, emotional intelligence. And then not have a clue what it actually means. And I know you said about assessing emotional intelligence, could you kind of just explain, you know, what emotional intelligence is and how you assess it?

Yeah. So I think most of us probably got a good sense of what emotional Intelligence is already really. But one description is it involves someone being really, really understanding their own emotions and how their emotions affect their behavior. And then a second component is understanding other people and how they might think and behave to the best as best we can. And through that self understanding and that empathy of others. My Siri's just gone off. Here we are, Siri's telling you what the answer is there.

She's listening.

Empathy, Right? She's listening. I know, yeah. So sorry. So through understanding self and others, leveraging our own kind of qualities in order to achieve what we, what we can through our communication and through our kind of mind management and through our behaviors. That's a bad description that you might want to re record, but that's all right.

It works for me. I think that even for myself, I know when I've been guilty of it in the past and maybe still do, where you'll read something. It's a bit like our creative director, Scott McArthur, who is a chap who sometimes come out with sayings and words. And when I first met him, I'd say, yeah, and I think I don't have a clue what you're talking about. So now I've realized not to be shy in saying, can you just explain that to me? And often a simple explanation means the penny drops and it all becomes a bit clearer. But yeah, even for myself, I'm learning through the podcast to just say, I think I know what that means, but can you kind of just clarify it for me?

Well, I mean, yeah, the phrase was kind of popularized by a guy called Daniel Goldman in the, in the 1990s, a book called Emotional Intelligence. And he was a journalist actually, and he just picked through all the, all the research, all the kind of psychological research he could find and found this thing called Emotional Intelligence or eq. And what most of the research was saying was that EQ was at least as big a influencer on someone's overall kind of life success as iq. Really, According to the research, we all need a level of IQ in order to function and perform, but everything else really is about how you, you know, how you manage your emotions and how you, how you, how you show up.

Yeah.

How you react to what's around you, the environment you're in, and the people that you, that you meet and the thoughts that you have. So, I mean, I love all that. I love that as much as the cognitive behavior stuff, because it's, it's just, I just find it really, really interesting. Yeah. And then you can assess it and Mentions assessment tools. And you know, there are, there are various. I mean, the, you know, the kind of oldest one that's still used is eqi, which is a psychometric. Psychometric being a kind of questionnaire that somebody fills out and it spits out lots of observations. The one that I'm trained in is called the Emotional Capital Report.

Okay.

Which is brilliant. And that's created by a guy called Martin Newman and his partner Judy Purse. And Again, it's a 10 minute, 10, 15 minute psychometric and it shows you what you're reporting as your strengths across a range of what they call competencies. Things like self confidence, self control, adaptability, optimism. And so it's not really, you know, it's less about the score that you give yourself on that. It's more about the conversation that, that opens up with a coach or a facilitator.

Yeah.

And what you learn about yourself and your. And the way that you work from that. Would that be similar type where you just get, you know, if you've got 150, you get a number. No, no, no. You know.

That'S a really good point actually, because I remember having a. It was around the time I learned about disc profiling.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And you know, there's some people that think that profiling is a lot of rubbish. Other people that built businesses around it. And I just think it's a really good. Like you said, it's a conversation starter. Because my issue, and it's so funny you said that, was that someone said about just bring clever people in. But you're like, well, you know, you need different people in a company who've got different strengths. And just because you're clever doesn't mean you can manage a team. So, yeah, very much myself find those things interesting because you can then sit, even if it's with your partner or. I know there was disc profiling for children as well, just as a lighter version of it. But some of us are a people person. Others just want to be left on their own and work and, you know, not, not bothered. So it's. I think the profiling is a powerful way, as you say, to start a conversation.

I think as long as it doesn't. As long as it doesn't box people. I think I haven't heard of disc for ch children. I think they, I mean, disc is a personality tool. It's personality psychometrics. It's different to emotional intelligence, you know, and it's. There are loads out there, aren't they? Do a million online and it says oh, you're a bit of this type of person. And I think you've got. Without being too kind of. Well, I'm not an intellectual, but without being too intellectually snoozy about it, you know, you've got to pick your psychometrics because a lot of them are just total nonsense.

Yeah.

But I think if you go to the kind of main ones and disc is a. Is a very popular one, and you know, and Myers Briggs and you know, ECR and others, then, then you can get a great deal from them. But it's just part, as you say, it's just kind of part of the. Part of the picture and it's about the conversation. It starts, really.

Yeah.

Everybody loves, you know, it's better than a horoscope.

Yeah.

Yes.

It's like you said, I think for. For many companies throughout the whole time working the city. I'd love now to go back and actually use any of that profiling to. If you're bringing in a new employee, a new candidate on your desk, because you're working in a small team of between four to 16 guys sitting on a desk, and it might have helped us avoid some mistakes. When you bought people in and very quickly you thought, this person just doesn't quite fit in the team.

Well, at least you have asked the right kinds of questions at interview. I think the bother is. And the bother with psychometrics is. And if they're in the wrong hands, they're taken too lightly or too seriously or, you know, and it's just part of the feedback. But if you. You don't have to listen to them, you just need to be aware of. But the validated ones are worth listening to to a degree. You know, there's something in them that. Something with something real about them. I guess.

I guess it's that try as many as you can and see what. See what comes up and get on with it. Yeah. And I guess also it comes down to. We haven't even touched the word procrastination or, you know, paralysis of analysis. But I'm always one of these people that says, just do something. You know, some people jump from course to course or probably from test to test. And at the end you're like, listen, at some point you got to pull the trigger and get on with something. Which is. I know we spoke to someone about personal development the other day and they said, and I've been guilty of it in the past, you do a course and then I'll do another course and a master's trainers course. Of that course. And then you're like, who are you applying it to? No one. I need to learn more first.

Oh, man. I know. Well, I know. I mean, I'm doing that at the moment. I've done so many courses since lockdown and it's all good stuff. But the business model is selling courses. I think more than, more than coaching or training now.

Yeah.

Or teaching how to sell courses is the course.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I'm conscious of your time and obviously you've already given us an hour of your valuable time this morning. But one of the last questions we always ask really is for the guys listening, is what would your advice be on how to do life better? And that could be something in business or personal that either works for you or you've learned from, from one of your kind of mentors through life.

That's a big old question. I'm gonna sound a bit humble and not worthy here, but you know, but I mean, I'm not in a position to tell someone how to do their life better. Cause it's not my life. And so I suppose if I'm pressed on it, I suppose doing life better is deciding what better is for you. That's deeply individual. It really is. And I guess in terms of advice, just pick what you think is success and ensure that that isn't wholly about what you think that will bring you because that isn't guaranteed. And think very carefully about how much, how much of why you're doing that thing boils down to what other people will think because that's not really important.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

I guess there's a thing of people, you know, climbing the ladder to success, but make sure it's leaning against the right wall completely.

And you know, I don't know, self esteem is a really. Is something that. Sure. You talk a lot with people about. And you know, self esteem is not a great thing because that's about other people. It's about rating yourself really against a kind of some kind of self imposed scorecard. And you do that based on what you see other people are doing.

Yeah.

And that's, you know, they say that that isn't the healthiest activity and that we should be more about, you know, what they call positive self regard. Unconditional positive self regard. And that's basically accepting that we're fallible. We're fallible human beings, that we're in a really, really changeable environment. So.

Especially in the moment.

Exactly. We think we're brilliant today. Then you know, what are we going to be comparing ourselves to tomorrow?

Yeah.

And I don't know. So my advice would be go and look up unconditional positive self regard and adopt that in your attitude, your flexible attitude to life. And then, and then at the very least you'll be more satisfied and more comfortable with you than you were before. And. Yeah. Isn't that what life's about?

Yeah. Yeah.

And that, as you were saying it made me think of the saying, comparison is a thief of joy. Right.

I'm going to write that down. Comparison is a thief of joy. Yeah.

I always say there's always someone doing better than you and always someone doing worse than you. But often you'll look at who's doing better and feel negatively about that and you're like everybody's, sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind.

Yeah. But you know what? I think the thing is, I think it's easy, I think it's easy for us to say things like that and somebody to walk away going, yeah, but it's fine for them. Or actually that doesn't really relate to me or, you know, or actually I don't want to, I don't want to compromise on my standards and that's just, I'm not prepared to just accept myself and be average. And I think that's, that's not really what, certainly not what I'm saying. I don't think what you're saying. Yeah, it's not. This is about people being in the best position psychologically, physiologically, to be the best of what they choose is important for them as long as it's realistic and doable. But it can be massively stretching. And if it's massively stretching, great, because you're going to get more joy doing that, more satisfaction out of doing it.

You said that question again, which I thought was great and it's so funny because I think often people will answer without thinking. But you know, that question of what is success to you? And I'm pretty sure that if you'd have asked me or some of my colleagues that worked in the city years ago, success meant having the car, the house, the watch, what have you. And actually if you ask me now, it is more about living a fulfilled life and enjoying time with your family. And I guess it depends on what stage of life you are as well.

Completely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, this has been, this has been good stuff and hopefully something for people to think about. And just going forward, if any of the guys wanted to get in touch with you about either coaching or more about your business, what would be the best way to contact you?

Yeah, lovely. So my website is groundandair.co.uk groundandair.co.uk that's my coaching website. That's probably best. I'm on LinkedIn. Jim Brown. Yeah, Very happy to help anyone or hear from anyone and chat things through. You've got some proper serious guests on your show. I've been looking at your back catalogue, so if they want an ordinary bloke who's about to turn 51, I'm here.

I'd be happy to have you in my corner, put it that way, so I wouldn't worry about that. But no, we'll make sure we put it the. Your website and stuff on the show notes as well.

Yeah.

And also just acknowledge you for the work you're doing because, you know, forgetting its companies. But ultimately it's about helping people, like we say, do life better because, you know, all the. All the knowledge that you've got ultimately is driving people in, you know, towards a. Hopefully a life of fulfillment.

Yeah, yeah. That's the plan, isn't it? And that's something. That's what you're doing with the whole man academy, aren't you?

So we're getting there.

You're on you, mate. I like your T shirt as well.

Because I need to get a new one done. Since we've rebranded, I haven't been able to get to the printers, so it's on my small to do list, but. Right, well, Jim, I will say thank you very much and let you go. And hopefully we will speak to you soon.

Thanks for inviting me. It's a real honour to be invited, so appreciate it. Cheers.