Ep041 - Be calm in the pandemic - Mark Bailey

So this is the whole Man Academy podcast. And this week we have the psychotherapist Mark Bailey back on the show because you're the first person to ever be invited back on, I think five, five months since we spoke.

Yeah.

And one hell of a lot has happened and changed in five months.

I was thinking about that this morning when I was coming to work, because I remember after we did that podcast, I walked home and there was no one else in. In the West End around where my office happens to be. And just how different that is now, even though it's still not what it was before. It's very different in many ways. But wasn't that a weird and very, very frightening time for everyone?

Yeah, I think it's, you know, the more this goes on, I think some people thought it was going to be a, you know, a couple of weeks or a month or two. And, you know, the reason why we got in touch with again, a. Because we said there was so much to cover anyway with men in their mindset, but also because of the way things have, the way things have gone since then. And to understand, we want to talk about today, the kind of, the short and long term consequences of what's going on. Before we say that, I should mention that Mark and I will probably be sweating or passing out at some point. Mark's in London, but I'm up in the Cotswolds. It's 33 degrees where I'm at the moment, so it's probably hotter for you.

I think it's already hitting like 35 again today.

Yes. So if I just slowly melt into a puddle. That's why I've had to put a dark T shirt on. So you don't see my whole manicabi one just changing color throughout. So let's get into it, Mark. I mean, how have you. This is all about. We just spoke off camera, but today in the last hour or two, the government have announced, unsurprisingly, that we are in the worst recession, you know, that probably any of us have ever seen, which is no surprise. And I was actually writing for the E Letter, which goes out on Friday. But, you know, it's kind of the Ministry of the Bleeding obvious, because anybody that has any kind of business now would look around and say shops are closed, people aren't spending. You know, some people are scared to go out. And I just wonder for you, how have you seen it with the guys that you're working with? I don't necessarily mean specific, you know, cases, but you've seen the Numbers rise and people looking for more kind of support.

I think definitely there's. I mean, I have been really busy and I'm lucky in many respects because obviously I'm self employed, like so many people, and so to have an income stream for me, I'm, you know, I'm in a very fortunate position and. But I'm working with people where there has been real instability over the last few months. And, you know, that thing of the unexpected has happened, and that's as a human being for all of us. And, you know, some people, we go through different stages of where life takes real, unexpected and often really horrific and frightening turns sometimes. And I think globally, this is a very frightening time for all of us because all of those stabilities that we might have in our lives have kind of been either overturned or certainly affected in some way by the pandemic. And so all those things that we may have thought of as stable have perhaps been less so.

Yeah.

Or many of them, at least. And then there's this idea of, well, I thought I knew what the unexpected was and look what kind of thing can happen. And I was talking to a security guard in the block where I worked yesterday evening, and we were sort of saying, you know, in many respects, although epidemiologists and experts do know an awful lot, there's still an awful lot that they don't know. And that's a. That's another factor that bears into this as well.

Yeah. So I think we could probably both agree that, you know, if you go on the Internet, you can find arguments for different things. Well, about anything. It doesn't matter whether it's Brexit or pretty much anything that you want to pick in life. But at the moment, I've never seen it where there's such a division between you're either one thing or the other. And it's hard for men maybe at the moment to navigate that when you can have an opinion. But if you put it out online, you'll get absolutely slaughtered by people which I think I know spoke to some friends who say, you know, well, I said it the other day on podcasting, the most dangerous thing you have at the moment is an opinion.

Really? Yeah.

Because you'll get people, you know, agreeing or disagreeing with you, but often the people that agree with you don't voice their agreement, but it's the people that disagree with you that will jump online. Yeah.

So there's going to be a bias. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think early on in the pandemic, I was writing Articles for some different patient websites, one of the NHS websites as well. Just saying, here's some advice to get you through this unknown situation from things that generally are quite helpful, and I think certainly in the age of social media, one of them is to be very cautious and very rationed with your use of it, because you can go down rabbit holes and without us even realizing there's a bias. So if you look at the algorithms of all social media systems, and Facebook is just one of them, yeah, there are biases left, right and center, and that's part of the system. They can't. No one can get rid of those or try and get rid of, because biases are part of life. But sometimes if we're unaware of them, they can do us real damage psychologically in our own thoughts as well as external factors.

It's a good point because I know with social media, I was reading and I can't remember the numbers, but the explosion of time spent on social media, especially during lockdown, I mean, you know, for some people, if you were working from home, then you didn't have all that time. But for a lot of people, if they were furloughed and, you know, they're sitting at home, it's so easy to spend your day scrolling.

So those ideas of screen limits are really helpful and often say, if I'm working with someone with anxiety, one of the things that we'll do is look at how people ration their time. And often there is. We're not conscious or mindful of how we're using our time, how long we spend on, say, Facebook or Instagram or how long we might read the newspapers for. So one of the exercises I might give people suggest that they do as an experiment. So we kind of do, okay, let's read the Daily Mail or the Guardian less or not at all for a week.

Right.

Or for only 10 minutes a day, and we're gonna see what changes. So we commit to that. And it's not the purpose of saying this is bad or this is good, it's just to see the correlation of that. The. The inherent bias in reading news articles say.

Yeah.

And how that affects our mood. And there is often a relationship between the external and our mood. And it's a really interesting thing. So it's not like you must do this because. But the point is, it's an experiment. See what the effect is.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's funny. That comes back to say, you're not telling people. What do you say? This is what you could do. And you know. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. So it's. It's not even. It's literally just like you're going to. Not I'm a scientist, but you're going to a test lab and you'll say, let's test this chemical in this situation with this chemical and see what the difference is.

Yeah.

And we're doing the same kind of thing because behavioralists in psychology, it's an interesting kind of thing because there's behavioralism and then there's a sort of cognition. And those obviously mix in therapy. But just sometimes to do purely behavioral experiments to see how they impact our thinking as opposed to the other way around is really interesting. And it tends to yield better results for people to change our behavior first. And then sometimes I have used analogy where if you say, I go in, say Sainsbury's. Right. And I couldn't ever set foot in Morrisons because I can't go there and say, well, how do you know? Then we'll come up with all kinds of stories about why one supermarket we wouldn't want to go into, but we're happy with another. And we kind of have a bias already because we have a known familiarity with one place. So there are all kinds of biases playing out there. And what we'll do is construct a big story around that. And one of the. An experiment could be in this example where you say, well, I'm going to go to Morrisons or Lidl or Ms. Or somewhere else to notice what that's like. And what you'll notice is then the story that you held true about one place is no longer just the only story, that you have some comparison and you have variety and nuance.

So does that come back to kind of, I guess, generally challenging your beliefs, but maybe those beliefs that are harmful?

Yeah, absolutely. And that kind of thing is really helpful as well. So where you were saying about the whole instability and the whole unknown that's going on at the moment, and certainly in the earlier days as well, to do with the pandemic of what the hell is this kind of thing? Thing that. That's a really useful concept to have because it was very easy. A number of my clients was talking of sort of their fears of Armageddon scenarios. You know, this is apocalyptic kind of stuff.

Yeah.

And it did actually kind of feel like a movie sometimes, you know, and when you're seeing. It's really easy to forget what it was like when we were seeing Deaths in the Thousand on TV reported, which was a huge number, and it was very Frightening and obviously traumatic for those close to that or who'd experience illness and death. But in that, there's already lots of biases, there's already lots of influence of those external factors. So one of the experiments you could do is say, let's go into those newspaper articles and notice the full breadth of them. So in other words, where's the good news? Where's the mundane stuff? Where's the stuff that you don't hear reported? How many people are recovering? How many people were asymptomatic because the news is only focusing on worst case scenario?

Yep, that was.

It's funny this morning I'll get the figures wrong, but I saw, you know, you see the headlines and I was scrolling through somewhere I follow on Twitter and where they shared, you know, the headline is coronavirus cases, not deaths, but cases have jumped dramatically. When you look on, it says there's been, you know, one or four cases. And you're like, as you said, they could say, hey, great news, there's only one case. And you go, ha, that's great.

And that how you read statistics, if there was one death yesterday and four today, or one case yesterday and four today, that's a 400% increase. Yeah.

As you say, you know, there was one yesterday and then, you know, two today. And you were like, the cases are doubled overnight.

It's doubled. Yeah, absolutely. And indeed, actually with the COVID testing at the moment, there are a number of inaccuracies in those tests. And that's not something that is anyone's at fault for. It's because we are also dealing with something where the spread of it is still some ways a relative unknown. One of my clients earlier today, whose partner has definitely tested positive for Covid, has said that they tested negative for Covid.

Yeah.

So confusion.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes. The joys of confusion. Well, on that. I know it's funny, just as we spoke before, you know, a lot of people have been forced to work from home and I have even, like myself, sometimes you're a bit confused about what that means for you, depending on your circumstances. Now, if you're single, then maybe it's okay because you've got an empty house, but if you've got kids, partner and what have you. So I wondered what your thoughts were on the effects of not just working from home, but I think for people that are forced to work from home, as opposed to saying, oh, I'm leaving work now and I'm going to start. It was like, right, well, overnight you've gone from being in an office to you're working from home. And I wonder what your thoughts were on the pressures that puts on a guy. You know, it doesn't matter if he's got family or he's living alone and how that can affect him.

Well, I think there are lots of different factors there. One is the lack of kind of variety in your surroundings. I think that's a really important thing because even when people commute and there's this toss up, isn't there with people at the moment saying, actually working from home has been really beneficial in some ways. Many people have said, I really love this. But there are also some drawbacks as well. And that's like commuting. Yes, we may go. It's nice to see people in person. But then the two hour trek to get there and then the two hour trek back, not so. And so I think that it's about accommodating to the realities of working from home for people. And that includes the fact that there's not those demarcations in our domestic environment that there might normally be. You know, your living room has suddenly become your study or your kitchen has now become your meeting room. And where also other people are being with zoom stuff, other people are now being invited into your home environment.

Yeah.

And we were saying just before we set up that, you know, right behind my camera here is a load of junk and so post it notes of things that I need to do. And there's a moisturizing bottle here, hand sanitizer, drying my hands and all these things. And you know, we have to make these accommodations.

Yeah.

Because home is actually a private place for most people. And that's a change for us as well.

What would you suggest and if guys have found it hard working from home, let's say a guy who has got family. I've seen it where it's the anxiety of are you performing because you're at work, but you're not at work, as you say, because you're at home. So if we kind of pick the anxiety side of it, you know, if a guy said he's feeling anxious about the situation of being at home, where do you start with dealing with his situation with anxiety and kind of trying to not necessarily stop it, but maybe calm it.

Yeah. I think probably to ascertain what the specific anxieties are would be a first step and why they cause anxiety. And generally that's kind of about running to the worst case scenario in our mind, because that's what we'll be doing. So I try and Find out with people, you know, what would that mean for you if it went to that nth degree? And that's going to be different for everyone. But I think with anxiety, it's about not just what those thoughts are as well, but how we hold those. You know, how we hold the thoughts that we have. Because it's been interesting that through one of my clients said to me, well, you know, you obviously don't have any anxiety around Covid. Not true. Not true at all. Absolutely. And it's how we hold that anxiety. And one of the worst things you can do with anxiety is then layer another burden on top, saying, I shouldn't have any anxiety. Often it's there for a valid reason, but it's a way in which we hold those thoughts that might be unhelpful. And I think last time I seemed to recall that I may have used an analogy like this that I use a lot with people. And that's, you know, that it's part of the human mind, which is incredibly complex. You know, all of us will have. I don't know if you can see it just behind me. I use, like an emotional. It's not in color because it's black and white printed, but it's an emotional color wheel.

Yeah.

And it's just one example of the broad spectrum of thoughts that the human mind can have. All of us can have these thoughts. Sometimes how we hold on to those thoughts dictates the effect and the level of anxiety that we will experience. So sometimes saying to people, you know, thoughts are like trains that come through a station. You can either hop on that train and then you're into the thought, or you can just observe it. And there's a high chance that the thought will probably just come and go.

Yeah.

As opposed to having to solve it. Because a lot of anxiety, one of the parts of what we call a formulation of anxiety is, you know, the structure of it, if you like, for someone is working out what methods they use to deal with those anxieties. So an accommodation someone might make around working from home, say, is that I have everything right in order, and everything is absolutely structured, and then I'll work even harder. And there are quite a lot of people that I think have found the penalty of lacking those barriers and boundaries in their time where they try working even harder. The work becomes sort of a toxic level.

Yeah.

And I think, interestingly, that's something probably all of us have to watch, or many people have to watch over the next few months as well, because of the looming thing of a recession being the reality now for us, that there'll be a temptation for people to work even harder to secure their job.

Yeah, that's a really good point. Because having various friends that work all in different sectors across the world now, actually, because we're. You've. Over my 42 years, you've met lots of people and from different countries and, you know, all different. And what I see from some of them is that the worry that working, you know, for me, working harder doesn't necessarily mean you're being more productive. It might just mean you're at your desk more and trying to remind them that, you know, productivity might be increased by taking a break now and again and giving yourself that chance to kind of just let the pressure off your shoulders and have a change, you know, get out in the garden or go and do something.

Yeah, absolutely. And the really interesting thing here is that when something doesn't work for us, most of us will tend to dig our feet in and do even more of it. So let's say someone is at the gym and they have an injury. That's one of the reasons why people carry on working through an injury that they probably know is not good. It's not going to do them any good. There's a kind of stubbornness in your life sometimes that can be really helpful to kind of. To, you know, be stoic and to get through things. But I think it's a bit of a mislabeling of that stoicism because there's no wisdom there. And I think that's what really what we're talking about when we think very often in terms of, say, self care with patients. I will say, you know, we need to be wise here because you could say, yeah, I'm going to work even harder. But would that really be a wise thing to do? Or would it be wiser to say, I'm going to give myself a break in a perspective? Because in that time I can look at my thoughts in a different way just by the unconscious. You know, when we go and do a different distracting activity, having a break from work, what happens in the brain is the thoughts that have been preoccupying, if you like, or at least very front of mind, they shrink and they can go down into a different perspective. And just that tilt shift, if you like, is an incredibly useful thing because it gives us a perspective to make those wise choices.

Yeah, that's. I've not heard it described like that, but it's really interesting because, you know, a year ago, I don't think anybody, you know, not. Not obviously, so many people work from home anyway. But it's. I see it as. It's the long term, a few people. It's a bit like other things at the moment. It's a novelty of like, oh, I'm working from home and the weather's good and what have you. But yeah, what you miss out on. I was talking to Robin who's, you know, part of the whole man academy, and he was saying where he hasn't traveled. What he's missed out on is firstly having a bit of time to yourself, but also got those times where you might just take a break and list to a podcast on your commute. And for me, it used to be I'd see friends at the train station that, you know, were your friends, but now I wouldn't zoom. Call them to have a chat. But you had that interaction and it gave you a new perspective on things.

Yeah, absolutely. One of the decisions I made, and I tend to do this anyway, is I deliberately will talk to people when I walk my dog. And that's quite a common thing for people. They're real sort of icebreaker dogs.

Yeah.

But also when I go in Sainsbury's, I'll deliberately sometimes make conversation with people at the checkout or, you know, one of the people there or, you know, sort of if I get a takeout somewhere or deliberately make some conversation. Because those are really important social markers for us and they tend to be helpful balances, particularly in a time that we've been through of both fear, global fear, and isolation as well. Isolation, the effects of that mirror pretty close. Depression, and often go hand in hand. And actually, one of the things that can really help that is just to make those. Even if you don't feel able to have deep, meaningful conversations with people, just to pass the time of day with people.

Yeah.

You know, where it's not asking too much of ourselves, but just enough to feel, I'm not on my own here.

No, that's. This is one of the worries at the moment. And, you know, for years I've always been one of these people. If you go out for a walk, usually, especially if it was like a Sunday morning, you always just say hello and good morning to people. And I always thought it was that, especially if they're elderly people or it doesn't matter, but that might be the only person they speak to that day. So in having some kind of conversation or connection can. Can be quite, quite useful. But I was speaking to one of the guys on the on the whole mad academy Zoom call that, you know, we do kind of monthly. And he's a great guy, but he said to me something really interesting. He said being on that call, which was only last week, apart from his colleagues and I think his partner, that's the first people or in a me and the other guys in the call that he spoke to in the whole time.

Yeah, yeah.

Because he's not going out for beers and you know, not going out to an office and what have you. And you're like, wow, I wonder how many hundreds and hundreds or thousands of people around the country having that when they're working from home and they're not having any other interaction.

And the other thing is as amazing as stuff like Zoom that we're using is there is a sort of staccato boxed in nature to it. That's not the same kind of. It's not worse or better necessarily, but it's different to those really subtle social cues and nuances that we get in more everyday life, not online. And maybe there's a generational thing there. I was around at a friend's house a month or so ago and her daughter was using something. I don't know what it was, it was something like Zoom, but she was just, she had it on for like six hours and her friend was in one corner on her iPhone and she was there and she was just kind of brushing her teeth, I think, or something at one point or doing her hair and the friend and they're just kind of there virtually. So maybe it's a generational thing that's a bit different. But I think for many people it's that just organic, maybe more free flowing interaction that's really important.

Yeah, that's. I think the effects of this will only be known in years to come. And going on from that, I mean there's. We spoke for about earlier on about, you know, lots of people have different opinions on masks and whether you should or shouldn't have them and. But whether you should or shouldn't have them on because you can find science, you know, that is for it and against it, but you can indeed, like.

The World Health Organization has. They're not entirely certain either, which is always interesting. Yeah. And a lot of this, whether we should or shouldn't has been derived from statistics rather than science necessarily. It's both. And that's what the Sage committee is about really. It's the meeting of the two.

It's more confusion, isn't it, for people? Again, it's, you know, because the confusion lies in what you're being told, in the lack of information. But I guess for all of us, one thing we can't deny is that having. Well, maybe you might, but having, you know, not having a large percentage, your facial expression hidden is going to have effects on people.

Absolutely.

And we see it with our little boy. He, you know, we've been in London with him and we were near Fenchurch street station and we got out, we were going to the Tower of London. We got out the cabin, you see, you know, it was a Saturday, so you see like 20 people walk towards you, but you can't see them smiling. So all you see is 20 people walk past like this. And they could be like, I'm smiling now and I'm not now.

Absolutely.

And he. Such an important thing, he said, why they keep looking at me now? He's never said that before, but all you can see, his eyes. And I just wonder what your take is knowing so much more about, you know, the brain and how these things work psychologically. The effect you see on people being, you know, again, whether they decide to, or they're forced to wear masks, there is going to be a, you know, an effect on that.

Absolutely. And there really are some very profound animalistic neurobiological effects of only seeing eyes on someone. And the lack of smiling is just one of those things, because it's really impossible to smile at someone under a mask. You just can't do it. And even though we can try and smile with our eyes, that also leads quite a lot to interpretation, to be honest. And one of the. So in this situation of anxiety, one of the things that is happening for many people, and especially if we've been through trauma, this is definitely going to be much more likely we will have a predisposition or a bias towards checking for threat and danger. So when we no longer see people's face and to know who they are as well, because it's hard to tell just from eyes in a haircut or a hat or something. That's gonna make it just much harder for someone to walk down the street or to go in a supermarket, that kind of thing. And I posted something on Instagram the other day about exactly this, saying that, you know, it's hard for some people, it's really hard for them to wear a face mask or be around others who are wearing them, because if they've been through interpersonal trauma or they have ptsd, then that's the kind of thing that will trigger the deep animalistic parts of the brain. There's a part called the amygdala which is only the size of a hazelnut, but it is mightily powerful and it can trigger this fear response that goes all the way through the body. And so we have to really hold ourselves and maybe other people, if you like, through this situation. And ordinarily, even if we haven't been through trauma, I think because this situation has been so anxiety provoking for all of us, those small things in everyday life, it can make the world seem like a lot less friendly place. So I think what we have to do is draw our attention back to all of the things that are friendly and human and collaborative and stable. So when I did my Instagram post about face mask the other day, one of the things I suggested people do is very purposefully attend their attention, bring their attention towards all the. Any signs that they see of acts of human kindness. If it's someone holding a door open for someone, if it's someone. So after you. If it's someone picking something out for someone, if you see neighbors talking and they're wearing face masks and you can almost do well, you can do a positive log of these. If you're finding it really hard with face masks at the moment, many people are. It's a really helpful thing to have on your, on your smartphone, a positive log. So it could be 5pm in Sainsbury's, saw someone open the door for someone or pick something up. Nice. And it could be the next day. Someone asked me if I needed anything that, that kind of thing. And what you do is you'll start building up a log just to dispute those thoughts that you have. There's very unconscious thoughts sometimes. Oh God, the world is a very frightening place.

Does that come, does that start to overlap into a level of mindfulness as well?

I think so. I think perhaps we can be mindful. So sometimes when people talk of mindfulness and it's kind of a buzzword at the moment and maybe good reason because it's very effective, it changes in your biology. You can do mindfulness as an exercise, like meditation. That's really good. And it works for some people, but it doesn't work for everyone. And there's also. You don't have to do mindfulness to be mindful because you can do, you know, you could dance around your living room to disco music or to house and you could arguably be very mindful doing that. So everyone has a different way of doing that. But I think it's in our everyday activities that we can be mindful and that's mindful of where my attention is going, what I'm looking at and also mindful of my thoughts. You know, how accurate is my thinking here? You know, let's test it.

Do you think with going forward? I know some people think that when you look at the youngsters that children should be wearing masks. And I saw something pretty. I consider it horrific the other day, which was there was a family I'd guess probably in their 30s with a little girl who I'd guess would be about 11 and a little boy who was probably about 6. It was a boiling hot day and they were walking along with masks on. And I know we don't know the circumstance, but the little boy took his mask off because it's like 30 days and the mum and dad were literally forcing him to put his mask back on and he was crying. And I had to stop myself from going over and saying, what are you doing? But I just wonder what your thoughts are on the long term effects of even the youngsters growing up. We've got a little baby and when I walk in the room, if you smile at him, he goes from whatever he's into and he's excited to see you and smiling.

Absolutely. And it touches. I feel sort of concerned when you say this because if you look at what's known as attachment theory, which was experiments done through the 1950s and 1960s, principally on how infants attach to not just their parents or other adults, but the world latterly. Yeah, those experience will show that where there's sort of instability in that smiling if you like. So someone might smile but then there's chaos around it or where a parent is not reassuring enough around the child or doesn't smile at them that babies right from the word go we pick up on these tiny facial cues that it's not about words necessarily. It's much more about the eyes and the teeth and the face and the warmth and how long someone's gaze might linger on us, that kind of thing. They're really subtle things and we know from those experiments where those things are disrupted it can have really deep psychologically profound negative effects.

What are the effects, Mark?

So. Well, the effects very broadly speaking are then how an infant will grow up in the world. But I think what we probably want to do here is. So in other words, the world can seem like a much more unstable place. I mean, I think certainly in face masks we're talking it's worth us remembering that that child will see their parents facial cues quite normally at home, behind closed doors or when the parents feel safe. So we have to be a bit careful of reading too much into this kind of thing, that we're just seeing a snapshot of a situation. But I think that one of the things that maybe we all need to think about is the accommodations that we make. And I really mean so week by week to what's going on. So when we did that first podcast right at the beginning of the pandemic, and isn't it weird to think that it was sort of starting to get a bit worrying almost six months ago in this country, we'd seen the stuff from China, but there was news stories evolving at that point. Six months ago happened in that time.

Yeah.

So I think one of the, one of the things that we have to do to hold ourselves, and this applies to how we might look after our children as well, one of the things we have to do is stay current with any threats or risks that are right in the here and the now. Not four or five months ago in this country at least, the pandemic is a very, very different stage. Now, if you read the papers, you could find any evidence to convince you of the anxiety you may hold. But what we have to do is take that broad range of evidence and say, you know, if I walk down the street, what is the actual real risk statistically of me catching coronavirus? And indeed, if I did, what's the risk of a serious health complication or, you know, or death? And fortunately, it is actually really very low. If you look in the last week or so, at most, nearly all of the A and E units across the whole uk, the number of COVID related illnesses that they've had admission for is really very low. Yeah, that's not what it was four months ago. So what we've got to do is stay current. And so my personal view is, if you're walking down, and this is only my view, I'm not a statistician and I'm not giving advice, but I am allowed a view. And my view is when you're walking down the street, coronavirus, like many viruses, is not airborne in the fact that it's flying past us through the air. If someone sneezes over your coughs in your face or very close to you, that's a different thing. But when you're walking down the street, most of the time that's probably, probably not a problem for you. And so you really have to weigh up. And what it's doing is it's showing all of us about damage limitation, risk mitigation and That's a very important thing with any kind of health anxiety of what is the real likelihood of risk here.

The word perspective popped up in my.

In my head there.

And I agree. I mean, we still had friends who honestly think they, you know, they should be. And we talk about perfectly healthy fitness young individuals here who still think that they, you know, it's a bit dangerous if they pop out. And then the rest of us go to places at the weekend where it's absolutely packed and everybody's having good time. And you're like, someone podcast. I said, if you didn't watch the media and you went out today, would, you know there was any issue? And I was like, that's a really good way to look at it. Because, you know, as you say, you turn on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, sausage, book the news, and it will be like. And then you'll go out and go.

So one of the experiments I did, so where I live is very close. I live really sort of very close to Westminster. And when in a few months ago, the Black Lives Matters marches were happening, there were. And I sort of walked along a bit of the route so I could see what was happening. Really?

Yeah.

And it's, I think, a really important cause. But obviously there was again, disagreement on whether this is a great, you know, this is the good time to be protesting in that way, considering what's going on. But that's a debate for people.

We do another one on that.

Yeah, but one of the things that many of my clients over that week, and I had a number of clients who were really, really very anxious, there's going to be a second wave. And I said, okay, so what we'll do. The reality is neither of us know this, so what we're going to do is some homework, essentially, and start to list your biggest fears, including this one, what you think is going to happen, how strongly you feel that, and what we're going to do, we're going to come back to it in two and three weeks and then two months, and then we'll look at it in a year's time if we're still working together, if it's helpful. And the idea of being able to diarize our thoughts is a very helpful one because they'll pass by sometimes, but they get the best of us and they overwhelm us, and then we're on to the next one. What we really want to do is tackle not necessarily what the thoughts are, but how we hold those. So there could have been a second wave from the BLM marches. There wasn't. And that's an incredibly important factor because the next time something like that might happen, there's a big march or something like that, it was good for us. It will be good for us to frame. Okay, well, you know, we have an example where one didn't causally directly relate to another.

Yeah, yeah, it's.

It was really interesting one because again, you'd see the. You could use the marches. And I'm pretty sure you're going to see some large marches coming up fairly soon around Europe, maybe around the world, but certainly for various reasons. But I thought was interesting how you could read some people that said about whether you should or shouldn't be allowed to have those marches because it was so dangerous, apparently. And I thought was interesting because you said, well, you let the marches go ahead for the demonstrations, but let's say when Liverpool won the Premier League, you weren't allowed to have a celebration. So I said one thought would be when Liverpool won the Champions League, I think there was 750,000 people turned up in Liverpool. Okay. Yeah, and rightly so. So I said, you can imagine if 750,000 people turned up at Anfield and their banners said, you know, we love Klopp and what have you. And as the police come towards you to say, you can't do this, you just turn around and say, black lives matter. And they say, you're right, you carry on. So it was interesting that that for me, and that's why it's good to you, was a pure issue of the psychology of it's okay to protest, but it's still dangerous. But it's not dangerous enough for you not to protest, but it is dangerous enough for you to go and do something that's a peaceful or a celebration.

It's interesting because one of the things that Covid certainly in the very early days did is it constricted what essentially was allowed, like in a way that most of us have never experienced before. And really, to be honest, unless you've been institutionalized, we wouldn't have known. Or in say, you know, in a really. In a place of being infirm or in hospital or injury, where suddenly, really overnight, our lives went like this. And what happens then is those things that are important to us get magnified. And one of the accommodations that happened here is how we respond and interact with authority and how we sit within a system and a society where all of us are both able to influence people, but also highly influenceable. You know, we can be influenced by the government telling us what to do. And so it's a really interesting look of what democracy really is and what that means for us on a daily basis.

That is. I'll tell you why Mark, that's. We wrote down a few things we wanted to talk about today but that wasn't on the list. But you've just hit something I think is really important is seeing as you obviously are professionalists I guess you would see the possibility that the government used mind control, you know, through media and through. It's a bit like the, you know, stay at home, protect the nhs, save lives the three we actually called it when on your last podcast the psychological virus. Funny enough, who'd have thought how accurate we were. They are. But I just wonder what your thoughts are on that because you, I guess you knowing more than most people would would be able to see it quicker than other people.

Perhaps. I think that. So it's really interesting because I've got friends who are. I would perhaps suggest that they're conspiracy theorists and that they were really believing and I think they still do the 5G idea that that was behind the virus and stuff and then I've got other people that their fear of the virus is it's man made and my personal position is that I don't think that our government is clever enough or effective enough to be that way inclined and I also don't think that any government is necessarily unless perhaps it's more autocratic and we're fairly democratic here to pull something like that off. But there is no doubt that all the government's job in many ways is to both be influenced by the electorate where we vote them in once every or out every four or five years where it's a fixed term now or that their position is actually to influence us through laws and through what they call guidelines in Covid. But there was law as well. But also the way that you could call it propaganda but the way they're messaging about, you know, contain the virus went out and I think it's one hell of a shift for us psychologically to be in unless you have grown up in say China or other autocratic regimes where actually you're normal. It's normal for you to be told exactly what to do and you know that almost on pain of death you're going to do it kind of stuff because that's how China works. Yeah, we're not used to that in this country. So I took some. One of the things I've been doing is taking pictures on my iPhone so that in a few years If I'm still around, I can look back and see in perspective, a different perspective, what was going on. There are all kinds of things. You know, that the first time we saw the social distancing, I remember the very first time I saw a little card in Tesco saying that I had to keep my. I've never heard of this term before.

Yeah.

And they should have made it physical, not social distancing.

Well, I think. And that's a really important thing. And it kind of brings us back to that idea of masks, because there's a reframe that I think is quite helpful when you see people wearing masks. And that is, yes, people are doing it for their own protection. Some people might be neurotic about it, frankly, but also you could see it as a collaborative and communal effort to protect each other. And I think that that idea of protecting each other is a really important thing because there's no doubt that we've had to. But, you know, one of those things, I remember seeing a poster on a bus stop saying, essentially, don't use buses at the bus stop. You know, protect the nhs. Don't travel. Thinking when I, you know, if I show this, like, to, you know, people that didn't know the time, if in 10, 20 years, they won't maybe believe. Yeah, this massive shift that we've been through. So I think that it's a little bit like, you know, having a very force or a tough parent on you, in a way. Don't do this and don't do that. We're fairly independent spirits, most of us. We don't like to be told what to do too much.

Yeah, I totally agree with you on that one. And I think it's about having a bit of perspective, isn't it? And as you've said before, if you watch all of the media, it will give you a disjointed view of what's going on and maybe what we should or shouldn't be doing. Well, talking of that, I mean, we, you know, talking about the coming or the recession we're in, or the coming recession, I just wonder the psychology and I know what it's like leaving a job and not having anything to go to. At the time when I got made redundant and I wanted to leave, but I was working on something else, but that meant I didn't actually have any set, you know, I didn't have a job to go to. And after nearly 20 years of knowing what I'm doing every day, suddenly you'd be scratching your head or scratching something Else thinking, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing. So where would you sit for guys that maybe have lost their. And it could be a job or lost their business? Because I think it's going to be, you know, it's all of small businesses.

Yeah, absolutely.

Where would you even start? With some kind of basic tips for if they've lost their job and they're now at home to kind of keep their mindset.

Right.

I think probably to answer that question, I would say that we have to be compassionate with ourselves and understand that when we lose our job and it's not through choice, so when we lose the job, rather than we decide we're gonna go, yeah, and it loses us, if that makes sense. There's a grief process involved in that. And I think that generally a lot of research would say in terms of stress, that can be akin to losing a loved one or someone in your, you know, someone in your family. So it can be really, for many people, particularly where our sense of self is fairly tied up in our job. And I think, moreover, for a number of people, it might be the end of their career in that part of their life, you know, that they. They may never get that kind of job again.

Yeah.

And so I think we've got to be really compassionate and say to ourselves, it's really understandable that this is not you for six, because it's, again, a big accommodation for us and there's the unknown as well. But to kind of understand the grief cycle where you're going to experience all these emotions like anger and denial and then bargaining and eventually perhaps acceptance. So. And then I think the other thing is also not to personalize it because that's a lot of. I think a lot of us can do that where we have some setback or stumble. And one of the things that we do is make a meaning of it about ourselves and say, well, everyone else is still working or even if they lost their job, they're so much better than I am, whatever. And then we depersonalize it and think, you know, it must be something about me. And I think that's where it's really helpful to keep in contact with other people. So. And if they've had the same set back, to normalize that as well and to both have compassion for what has happened and also finding the motivation to exit out of that and to get, if you like, the car out of the ditch rather than just keep looking at the car.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think one of the things there is that what can really help is just to keep your attention on that kind of bias, because where we're anxious, we're much more likely to look at all the things that are going to go wrong or catastrophize about what could go wrong. And there are a couple of things there of where you taught that you've been through a redundancy before, and I have as well. And once where I was fired as well. Clash of personalities.

I was going to say, I have to ask, why were you fired?

It's an interesting thing, actually, because I was told that a contract would be renewed and then there was a change of manager above me. And then I literally went in the next day with someone who put their sort of hand on my knee and sort of said, not in an inappropriate way, but sort of said, really want you as part of the new team. And then someone came in just above me and I suddenly found I had no job. Literally, I was out within a week or so. And that was a real. That was a blow.

Well, I guess you've been through this then, which. And I have as well, is a. And actually having to leave a job fairly quickly is a big change for you suddenly if you're not prepared.

And I remember years ago when I was doing the TV show Biggest Loser, we were about to sign a contract for this third series and suddenly it went. And there was again a change of direction in the channel that it was on and the funding wasn't there and it was like, ah, right, what now? And I kind of put my business to one side while I did the show because it occupied a lot. And then suddenly I'm having to rebuild the business again. But one thing I learned from that is I remember the 2000 recession and 2007 recession. I mean, and the answer is, it was difficult, but we got through it. And I think one of the protective factors for us is experiences, even if they're unpleasant. We certainly have to really cut our cloth according to our budget. That's a definite thing we have to do, is the knowledge that this will pass. And even if it takes a long time, even if it's really quite tough, and it will be really tough for many, many people, but this time will pass. We will find a way through. I think it's perhaps a wisdom of how we find our way through it that's important.

I guess it's. I had that picture in my head of, you know, when you're in the eye of the storm, it's hard to remember what it's like to have a Sunny day.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. And funnily enough, probably because I knew that I wanted to mention this to her and I happened to put it on my Instagram feed this morning, a really useful thing you can do is just on your phone, have a success log. And often when we think of success, and I asked them about, Tell me about some of your successes. People will often go for the really big things, like, you know, I had this bonus or whatever it may be, and actually those things are probably not necessarily that helpful right now because they might be too big for us to conceive.

Yeah.

But what can help is to have a log of small victories and triumphs every day. You know, like if you are looking for work and someone has called you back, that kind of thing, even if it didn't lead to a job directly, it's a sign that someone is interested enough to pick up the phone back to you.

Yeah, that's really important because the way I see it at the moment, as you said, it's a long game for some people as well. I can't see, you know, I can't see the economy suddenly bouncing back on its feet again because companies that are shutting down, it's not one sector. And I spoke about this before, you know, if it was, I don't know, let's say it was British Airways or the flights that were all closing, but, you know, gyms were staying open and the hell, I mean, the leisure industry is going to take an absolute battering. And that's the thing is it's whole industries, not just one company that's, you know, made some bad financial decisions. And what day was it on? Monday. I said it might be a time to reinvent yourself.

Absolutely.

And I'm not saying that's a quick thing or an easy thing to do, but adapt or dies is one of the sayings that I heard once, you know.

Yeah, well, that's the whole sort of Darwinian thing of adaptation. And arguably in many areas it was. Changes were going to happen anyway. For example, to the high street, some stores were frankly sort of dying on their ass. And through no fault of their own, the business rates that they've had to pay is a scandal, really. While you have, you know, companies like Amazon circumnavigating many issues.

Tax issues.

Indeed. And while they're not doing anything illegal, perhaps there are ethical questions that they do have to answer. Not just here, but America actually. Whether they lead to any answers, God knows. But I think those changes will probably happen in many sectors anyway. And it's that thing of how do you reinvent yourself? And pacing that reinvention. But also of if you. One of the. If I'm honest, one of my best lessons in life was when I was in my 20s and I had to do work I didn't want to. And it really taught me the value of sort of putting my identity to one side with work and just kind of getting on with things, doing one day at a time. And I'd never, I've always been quite a deep thinker and I'd never known that I could also do that. And that's. That was a really useful resource to have.

Yeah.

You'll be pleased to know I've never been a deep thinker and probably most my friends would agree with you on that one. But I do listen to deep thinkers, so. And I remember, I'm not saying this guy's a deep thinker, but listen to a podcast years ago where it's a chap who's, I think owns one of the big like UFC fighting gyms or something in the States. And anyway, the point was he said whilst he was working on creating the gym and what he has, he ended up basically working nights cleaning toilets in another gym. So he had money to pay the bills. And, you know, his big thing was sometimes you've got to leave your pride at the door, which is what I say about going to hospital. But that's another story is, you know, you sometimes you got to take a step backwards to go forwards and that might be a step backwards in what you perceive your level of success, in what you perceive your. Well, not per se perception, but your, your salary and say, do you know what, what, what are the important things I need at the moment? What, what, what must I have? And can the rest of it just go by the wayside for now?

So there's a really useful kind of checking mechanism you can do here because with any anxiety and say job anxiety or career anxiety, I think that's separate from money anxiety, that there are ways of saying for many, but certainly not all many people, how much money do I actually survive in life and to have a good enough time? And this Covid thing is maybe the number of people saving has like gone through the roof, isn't it? People have saved a huge amount of money and we were living on, you know, culture of higher purchase and loans anyway and have done for some time. There wouldn't be so many BMWs on the streets if people didn't have higher purchase.

But.

So there's a money stuff. But Then when it comes to career, it's interesting because many people, we can use our career and our status as some kind of device to soothe our anxieties. It's like a coping mechanism, a safety mechanism that we use. So we say, so I'm really anxious about where I am in life, but I have my career and that's okay. Or we might use it as some kind of. More likely some kind of identity. So I don't really know who I am or feel comfortable in myself. But so because I know I earn, say, six figures or I do this job or I have this title now, I can feel okay. So when that's taken away from us through circumstance, that will bring people's anxiety up. And I think it's something to be aware of for many people that you're more likely, if that's the case, to certainly sort of feel this bubbling tension inside you of who am I now?

Yeah.

So I think it brings us on to the idea of, as a human, we are going to go through huge, many, many changes and stages in our lives and actually robust personalities, if you like. We're multifaceted. And one of the upsides of this instability is that we can start knowing that, oh, okay, so I may not have this job or this status anymore, but I'm surviving and that's okay. You know, I get through this, I can tolerate it. And maybe there's some upsides to this as well.

Yeah, that's going to be big, I think, is finding. I guess it goes back to gratitude and mindfulness, which I admit years ago I thought was a load of rubbish. But, you know, the more I read and the more I listened and I noticed people that were very successful saying, you know, there might be something in this for some. Like you said, for some people, maybe it works for some, maybe it doesn't work for others. But at the moment, if. If you get into that stage where, you know, your job or business is going, having some level of gratitude now, what have I got that I need and what am I thankful for? Could be. Could be really helpful. One of the big things, you know, I know a lot of guys of different ages, and I probably hang around with guys that are slightly older than me these days, especially because I moved to the country and they're all old anyway. But we were talking about the difference of if you're in your 20s or 30s, reinventing yourself is, I think, is easier because you've got scope to do that and you've got time for your career. But if you're a guy in his late 40s, 50s, you know I use the term set in your ways but I think it's, it's that much more difficult maybe to reinvent yourself and maybe use social media and go down that route possibly.

I think that's a lot to do with our mindset actually. I think, I'm not saying things are as hard as you make them kind of thing although I think maybe there is something in that. It's. I think it takes maybe someone to help sometimes to gain that perspective to bring that camera back out from our lives and say what are those core skills that you have developed? Because one of the things that's really interesting is if you were to do like an analysis of your business, if you like and all of us are our own business and certainly we're really keenly aware of that when we made redundancy that we're our own self employed entity and I think that's just going to be even more likely over the next decade or so anyway that most, lots of people are going to become self employed that we can do a cv. But actually it's also helpful to do that sort of soft, internal, soft skill, internal CV for ourselves that we don't necessarily have to put on paper for an application but we can know ourselves. What are the skills I've got as say a 50 year old man that someone who is 22 is probably a lot less likely to have.

Yeah.

Otherwise we're going to view it as kind of some downward trajectory and I think that obviously is going to not be a helpful thing. But to see what are the benefits of being in our 50s, what are the benefits of being in our 40s that we didn't have, you know, that perspective.

Yeah.

A bit of wisdom and a bit of experience and yeah, that's a, that's a good point actually saying the word cv. On Tuesday morning I was doing coaching with a guy who said his company were advertising for a lesson marketing role and usually if they did that they'd get, I can't remember, you know, I know 10, 15 applications and I think he got you know, hundreds and that he'd seen or someone has seen where you know a secretarial job. I've got like a thousand. Yeah. So his point was some of the CV applications or the application letters, CVs it was so important for people to have tailored it to that job. Whereas a lot of people just sending in and he said you'd look and be like listen, you've got no chance getting the job if you're not going to tailor your CV or use, you know, use your. Going back to what you said, use your experiences that you've had in life to apply for that job and try and stand out.

Yeah.

And it's. I don't know whether you've ever interviewed people for jobs.

Yeah.

If someone gets through to that stage. But I think the reality is above and beyond certain skills. And I think obviously this is a sector by sector thing and it's the level you go. And I mean, I know people that, like, you worked in finance in the city and banking stuff, where people go for, like, law, six or seven rounds of interviews, you know, real torturous stuff. But actually, for many jobs, it's more about how is this person, when they walk in the room, what is this person like? What's the energy that I feel from them? And I know certainly before I did this job, when I've interviewed people, I'm like, well, gosh, this is not what I thought it was. Could be on the cv.

Yeah, yeah.

There's no way in a mother I'm gonna go through this process because I feel I have to, but there's no way in Cassie, Neil's chance, I'm gonna give you the job. And then other people, it was like, it wasn't great, but I'm glad we got you in and now I really see why we'd want you.

Yeah.

There was a guy, worked for one of the really big investment banks and he used to get hundreds of CVs from different grads. And quite frankly, the CVs were generally a waste of time because they were all super smart and had, you know, A grades, A stars and what have you.

So.

So you might as well just toss them out the window and have a look at their personal. What they'd written. And he said the big question they would ask was, look, everybody here is qualified, but firstly, would you want them to sit next to you all day? And secondly, would you want to go for a drink with them after work?

Yeah.

And you're like, yeah, because we've all done it. I sat for 50 hours a week with some people and some people I absolutely loved and some people I couldn't stand.

So I've forgotten who said that quote. I can't remember. I still. I have to keep this in mind. Mind sometimes of, you know, life is navigating through life is essentially working with people you don't really like very much, coping with others, humans.

I think it was Jim Carrey who recently tweeted, saying, before you self diagnose yourself with depression, make sure you're not working with assholes.

Well, depression is an interesting word because I think it's used a lot now. And although there are higher incidences of both depression and anxiety, I think that it's useful to scale things like anxiety and depression so that it's not like a stigmatic label.

Yeah.

Because the reality is, and this is really important circumstance is certainly with depression and anxiety and other problems as well. It massively influences. So you know, if you are living the kind of life you love and you have freedom and you have health and stuff, it's less likely, less likely you'll be depressed. It's not say, unlikely. But then if you have had adverse childhood experiences or you have an ongoing chronic health problem or you have insecurity or money, where. And suddenly, you know, those factors are coming in.

Yeah.

And so that's why with all our well being and mental health, think those considerations are really important. And so just within this context of, you know, the worries that all of us have, many people, some people more than others at the moment, for good reason, I think that's an important consideration of like, no wonder you're worried at the moment.

Do you know what? And that's so important. I know you touched on earlier, but I think, you know, the whole man academy was set up to encourage guys to get together to talk. And I don't. In my experience, there's never been a time more important to keep in touch with your mates. And I'm not saying there's only your mates you can talk to. But you know, even for me doing this with you, it helps because I'm learning little ideas and nuggets and then hopefully the people that are listening. And last week's podcast was a really short one. He said, you know what, instead of spending your hour listening to whoever we would have had on go and call three of your mates.

Yeah.

And just have a chat. Have a chat with them. And we had. I'm not talking about a tidal wave of people responding because we're guys and we keep ourselves to ourselves generally. But a couple of guys message back saying, you know what? I wasn't contact them because I was on. My point was contact them not because it's for you, but maybe it's for them. Maybe it's like, you know what, speak to you. Things are a bit shit at the moment. I'm scared I might lose my job or etc.

And I think that's a really important thing. Also just off the Back of. So in Covid, when we look back at the this, I think we're going to see it as then the time that preceded that was this time of false high expectation of ourselves, of where no, I'm perfectly okay and everything's great and I'm going to post this picture on Instagram that is now conforming to what I think I should be doing. I think this is going to be a really useful reframe of. Do you know what? Sometimes life is shit and it's shit for all of us sometimes and it doesn't mean it can't get better, but just to hold ourselves. Because we've been in a very acquisitive and accumulative society for at least a 10 year generation now, but preceding that as well, where generally most people's life has got better in terms of say, finances, even if they're, you know, mortgage payments and buying a house and stuff.

Yeah.

And it's not going to be like that for many people now. And I think hopefully this may have helped us have a reframe of. I don't need all those things.

Yeah, absolutely. There's a guy interviewed a couple of weeks ago called Andy Murphy who's from the uk, but it's got a big podcast in the States. And ultimately his message was that nothing matters. And what I mean for that is a lot of us, you know, you're worried about this, that and the other. And if you, if you break it down, you know, on your deathbed and someone said, you know, what were you worried about? And you're like, oh, one of my friends unfollowed me.

Yeah. Have you seen the.

Wasn't the new one didn't have leather, have you?

Yeah, exactly. All those things. And then you think, what impact. So the type of one type of sort of therapeutic school I. If you like belong in there, like 40 or 50 different mindsets in therapy, some of which are better than others, but one of them is what they call the constructivist idea. And essentially that means it's not what happens, it's what you make of it. So yeah, you could sit on a car and it will have beauty. My brother's got like a couple of really beautiful cars because he's pretty loaded. And now because he's worked so hard for it and, and he's got lovely cars and he loves them. To me it's like a car I can appreciate it's nice, but it doesn't really, I don't really need that. There are other things that are important to Me, But I think it's that thing of. It's not what it is, it's what you make of it.

Yeah, well, maybe that's a good one to finish on. Firstly, because I've lost three kilos in water body weight since we've sat here, and I could see the beads of sweat. I know I'm going to wring my T shirt out and then make a smoothie out of it. But just to finish, if you could, you know, we always try and ask on these questions, but if you could kind of just give one tip on how at the moment, men could do life better, what would that be?

Mark?

That's a really good question. I think probably to ensure, while if you're working from home, to ensure that you robustly ring fence that time and if you have any worries about that. So, you know, I said earlier, people might be going to that place of toxic working, overworking. I've got to get this done. I've got to be better than the other people. That kind of. That kind of mentality, or. I'm so worried about my job. I think what could be helpful would say I'm going to robustly ring fence my time and do stuff that has given me pleasure before COVID and before this time of insecurity, and see if that distinction of time, reducing that time. You might work, for example, by an hour a day. Does it make enough of a difference to cause problems? Because otherwise the risk is that you do even more of it in the future. So it's the idea of experimenting to see how much wiggle room there is in those boundaries of time. And I think that boundarying time is really crucial for us at the moment of just enjoying our leisure time as much as we can.

No, it's massive. And I think it's only gonna only gonna get bigger in the months to come as we see either companies shutting down or more people working from home. Home and Canary Wharf mothballed and used as a homeless shelter.

Yeah, yeah. I drove past there and I was in Canary Wharf actually at the weekend, and, you know, it was really weird to see. I know it was a Sunday, but it was. You could just tell by how many people were there. It's a lot quieter than it would ordinarily be.

So, yeah, Canary Wharf was mildly soulless at the best of times. So it's only going one way from here. Well, I would say also if. Well, two things, actually. If guys listening to this think they want help with their life, then I'm available for life coaching. But if they need any other help with any anxiety, depression, stress situations, then Mark is your man and we'll put your details on. And in fact, we're going to put some of this on our E letter, which goes out to a couple hundred guys on Friday. And what's your plan now? Back to work for the afternoon.

Do you know what? I'm gonna have a small water. I've done that in the whole hour. I think today I've drunk like four liters of water.

Yes.

So hot. And then I'm gonna go to the gym. So talking of self care, it's like I did that the other day and I go to the gym four or five times a week and that was really lovely when I came back and I was able to do that again because it kind of keeps. It gets me back into my body. Yeah, that's really nice. That's what I'm going to do.

Bit of reconnection. We could all do with that. Well, Mark, I appreciate all of your time and all of your knowledge as well. And the podcast say I'm sure will be helping guys who'll be listening and trying to get those little golden nuggets. And hopefully we will speak to you again soon.

Great, I look forward to it.

Thanks, Mark.