EP042 - Move your wellbeing up a level - Ben Harrison

Okay, so this is the whole Man Academy podcast. My guest today is Ben Harrison. We're lucky to have him joining us all the way from sunny London. As far as I'm aware, Ben is a London based, as we just said, yoga teacher, mindfulness coach, personal trainer. Interestingly, he's a master yoga trainer to the British Armed Forces, which we're going to get into because I'm pretty interested to hear how that works. He's coached Team GB Olympic athletes, which is pretty cool. He's teached rugby, London, Scottish team, unusual background is Olympic freestyle wrestler, amateur fighter, ultra marathon runner. What haven't you done, Ben? Welcome to the whole Man Academy podcast.

Hi, thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here.

So, firstly, I know you're in London, but how are you down there and what's been going on for you at the moment?

Yeah, all good. It's not sunny, but it is really hot here. Really hot and humid. I'm great, yeah, I'm sore and tired which means that I'm working hard and getting my training in, so I'm happy.

Fair enough. Well, actually, we're going to talk about recovery a bit later in the podcast and interestingly with that, I know with our ambassador, David Gandhi, where he'd pretty much had a three month break from the gym, which is probably quite good for you often to give yourself a break from the gym. Now he's getting old and he's 40 years old, but you know, he said that he really found himself as soon as he got back to the gym aching a lot. So, yeah, we'll be, we'll be touching on that one a bit later. But let's just jump into the first question, which is how did you become a yoga teacher for the armed forces and what was that like?

Yeah, so that's through Broga Fitness Yoga is the brand who I work for as master trainer with Matt Miller and we provide fitness yoga training to the armed forces. So Royal Air Force, military police, the army, actually, yeah, I've done a training with a few people from the Navy as well. So yeah, it's a huge privilege to be able to work with those people. And as you can imagine, they're fast learners and they take it quite seriously.

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask is, you know, to state the obvious, I'm pretty sure a big group of those are fairly tough individuals. So do you find for them that they're happy to be learning about yoga or is there any kind of like, you know, it's not quite for us at the Moment?

No, I mean it's an intensive course that we do and they're used to, you know, long intensive periods of work. So it suits them fine. It's probably more me and Matt who strug to get through it. Yeah, you know, I love it. It's the really strong men and women like so, you know, take it seriously. They're easy to teach. There's kind of a change across the age range that we teach in that.

The.

The younger soldiers tend to be, you know, doing some CrossFit and some things like that so they have some mobility and a little bit better movement mechanics. And it's more. Sometimes the older ladies and gents who we're working with who have done, I think they call it tabbing which is essentially just like marching with a backpack on for hours and hours and hours and doing press ups and then they, you know, from that kind of movement culture have a little bit more difficulty with the fitness yoga. But you know, it's the good thing about the style of yoga that we teach is that it works in sets and reps. So it has a gym feel to it. So you know, it's about kind of getting people onto the mat who wouldn't be on the mat otherwise. And I guess the military, you know, is a part of that. And there's a progression every time we repeat, which is totally optional. And so the cool thing about, you know, the broker system that we teach the military and I try and do this as well in my own classes, wherever they are, is, you know, anyone can turn up to one of my classes even if it says advanced yoga or something like that, or if it's a beginner's class and maybe you're a yoga teacher or professional athlete, you know, anyone can come because I'll always teach a progression and a sort of progressive version of the same exercise.

So how for, for someone kind of listening to explain to them in simple terms the difference between that type of yoga and the other kind of the other ones that are available. I know there's various forms of it and I've done a few of them myself and a bit of Bikram yoga, which not in this summer, thankfully. So how would you kind of break down the kind of main points of it?

The main points is set some repetition. So if you go to a bikram class you're going to have. So this, this gets complicated with the we've got time, let's get into it. All right, let's do this. So what we think Hatha yoga means right or Hatha pronunciation is forceful yoga, right? That's. Well, that's what it really means. But what we think it means is that it doesn't flow together. So it isn't connected by what we call a vinyasa, right? Which is you're exhaling down into a, into like a low plank position, inhaling, coming up into an upward facing dog and exhaling, going back into down dog and sort of flowing and transitioning continuously. When it isn't that and it's just like pose, break back to standing pose, break back to standing pose. We think of that as hatha yoga, right? And that's what bikram is. You've got a set of poses and they're not connected into a flow. Really, that's, you know, all yoga is hatha yoga because it's all physical, forceful yoga. All the yoga you do in a gym or a studio is hatha yoga, vinyasa flow. All the other styles, they flow. And broga is a little bit of a combination of the two and something completely different in that, you know, it's for sets and repetitions. So set one, instead of just coming up into a high lunge and holding it for five breaths or coming up into a high lunge and then transitioning, flowing around from there, we'll come up into a high lunge and, you know, go up and down, right? Do lunges as if you're in the gym and we might do a set of 10, and then we'll go back to down dog. Step two, we come up into the high lunge and then we give the option now to make it harder, right? So maybe like lifting onto, onto the toes or the ball of the front foot, and we do it again. And then option three, you know, maybe taking the rear leg off the floor and you're now in a balancing position. Now, great thing about that is that the people who can't, who can't access the progressions yet, they get to repeat stage one or stage two, you know, two or three times.

Yeah.

And obviously, I say obviously it isn't obvious, but what I found through strength and conditioning, right, is that no matter. And everyone's body responds slightly differently. But I think that this is a pretty sound principle because you have enough volume to create strength and hypertrophy, like muscle mass, and you have enough repetition to create muscle memory to get actually good at the movement is, you know, repetition. This is what my wrestling coaches say, repetition is the mother of all skills. So if I'm in the gym and I'm lifting something, I'LL do five sets, usually five sets of five reps or something like that. And yeah, it's kind of the same with Broker. We generally kind of go through it about five times. So I like it.

And what with that, I mean, you're obviously very passionate about it and a very active guy. What, what got you into yoga? Or often the question is, who got you into yoga in the first place?

It's like every, every guy in yoga, you know, get brought by a girl at. And then the goal doesn't stay around, but the practice does.

Yeah.

And you know, so seriously, what happened is I was an amateur fighter, right? And I had my lower back was all tight and a little bit injured and most of the other guys doing jujitsu and wrestling and MMA all sort of the same. And it's interesting because within mma, mixed martial arts, there's, you know, wrestlers, kickboxers, boxers, Muay Thai guys, jiu jitsu guys. And the jiu jitsu guys have got this kind of like unusual. They're all subcultures, right? Jiu jitsu guys are kind of like sort of. You might sort of think of them as like surfers. Right. They're kind of a little bit more interested in like a holistic approach and what else can we do to cross train? And so they like yoga. One of the guys who I trained with was a yoga instructor and he was like, okay, come to class. And we went to Bikram. And this is back in the day, right, where Bikram was always 90 minutes in really hot room. And at the time as well, because it was new, all the studios were having these competitions of like, who can get the studio the hottest.

Yeah, I remember just being absolutely roasting.

Yeah, it's not the practice for me. I like hot yoga now and then if I'm in a really good mood and hydrated and, you know, not sore and tired, I can just about handle a class that doesn't last for more than an hour. But yeah, started going to Bikram, ended up dating the teacher. Somehow I think we went for food or something after class and then when she would wake up and go and teach classes, I was actually working full time as a sales exec as well as trying to become a professional fighter. In the evening I used to go to work looking like Edward Norton from Flight Club. I'd have a black eye and a superpower. But yeah, she would wake up really early, wake me up to go and teach class, and I'd be like, well, hey, I'll go and do this Yoga class before, before I do the day of work. And yeah, that's kind of how it started to become a habit.

And that's the thing, isn't it? You just said the word habit. I know. I've worked in the city for many years and at the time not many of the guys around me were into you. They were into the gym and you know, doing weights or doing some of the endurance stuff, which I really enjoyed as well. But I'm trying to think who it was that I heard once say, you know, all the guys doing weights could probably do with a bit of yoga and the guys that were doing yoga could probably do with a bit of bit of weight section. But you look like you've got the, you know, the combination of the two obviously because you know, a few my friends that really enjoyed yoga were very, very slim, whereas you've obviously packed on a bit of muscle with the wrestling and stuff. So how did you find that with just to start with, but your own flexibility?

Yeah, I mean, I mean to be honest with you, I was skinnier than I am now weirdly enough as a wrestler. Part of that's just like as an amateur, like honestly I wasn't taking steroids. Right. And when people look at professional athlet and they think like, oh yeah, I'm gonna train three times a day or twice a day and I'm gonna have this, you know, enormous shoulders, but be an endurance athlete, like be a boxer or whatever and have full on pectorals and an eight pack and it's like they take steroids. Like it's so prevalent, it's so prevalent and modeling work now, right. There's almost no one in the industry who's, who's not taking steroids. Yeah, it's nuts being realistic about that. But. Sorry, sorry, what was the question? A bit.

Well, so I guess for you in a way you've answered it because you, it's not necessarily that you were really bulky and then moved into the yoga as well. But I guess my question also would be, let's say with the people you're training or a guy listening. I always try to encourage that, you know, any guy go and try yoga and make it, try and get into a bit of a habit. Even if it is, I mean, we're going to get on to working from home and the challenges of that because I know you teach online as well, but so many guys are either sitting at their desk for hours and hours and hours a day or now, I mean it previously be, for example, you know, you'd been asleep all night. You'd sit on the train for X amount of time, then you'd sit at your desk for eight to ten hours, and then you'd sit on the train and you come home and sit and watch telly. And I see that it's replicating that at home now because people haven't even got a walk to the station or a commute because a lot of people working from home. So I just wanted for you, how would you help a guy make the yoga part of his habit just to get something going in the mornings or at any time?

Yeah, yeah, good question. Because it's, you know, we're obsessed with habits right now. Right. Habits. And I think there's probably a tipping point where you've got so many habits to try and do in the morning, such an elaborate morning routine that is probably just holding you back from taking action on your primary activity, whatever that is. So, yeah, I would say make it, make it short and make it doable and achievable. And it's taken me such a long time to learn that myself.

Yeah.

You know, I would make a training plan. I'll be like, okay, I've got to get, you know, I remember when I was first practicing yoga and I wanted to, you know, achieve like a press handstand and then be like, I'll get out of bed and I'm going to practice press handstands for half an hour. And it's just not, you know, it's not realistic.

Doesn't happen.

It depends on what kind of, you know, maybe there's a morning person out there who can shoot, that's fine.

Yeah, I think that's the morning routine thing is something that the whole man academy often talk about because, you know, trying to, trying to start your day in the right way can have that ripple effect to you know, be either in a more productive, be in a better mood, make better decisions. And I know we often work with people on, we call it move, breathe, think and drink. So to try and simplify, you know, drink being just don't go straight for coffee but have, you know, apple cider vinegar or warm water with lemon. The think being just what my priorities today. But the move is the bit obviously that to talk to you about, you know, we'd say just try and do something instead of pressurizing yourself or pressuring yourself. Sorry to say, I must hit the gym for an hour. I must do a 5k run. It's like, you know, what if you could do, I know, five minutes of you know, some basic yoga just to get the blood flowing and stuff.

Yeah. I mean, you know, what I'd say is this is my advice. Put a timer on your phone for like two minutes and just get into downward Facing dog. Right. And I think that probably everyone knows what that is, but if not on Instagram or whatever and look it up and you know, there's a bit of nuance to that position. It's quite a lot, actually. So you can have a little read up on it or go to a few classes and hear about it, but it's basically just getting into that inverted V position or sort of. Yeah, inverted V position. And having a little move around to move your hips side to side, lift up on your toes, push your heels down.

Yeah.

Starting to rotate your arms. You know, shake your head around a little bit and relax your neck. And that's like, you know, sort of the mother position of yoga. And it's gentle enough that you can do it first thing in the day. Yeah. I mean, just make it really, really simple, make it really, really fast and achievable. And I would actually, just to expand out a question, say, do that for all of your training and stuff. You know, I was just on YouTube this morning and I saw this like half an hour, 30 minute ab workout. Like 30 minutes, you know, that muscle group or like one hour single dumbbell home workout. Like you don't need to do that. That you don't need to do that.

Yeah, you'll be. Or if you do, you'll be aching so much with that body part that you won't be able to move.

Yeah. You know, I say that maybe you're training someone specifically you do, but generally, like, if you're just trying to be in shape, you know, keep your workout 45 minutes.

Yeah, I mean, that's. There's been the explosion of, to state the obvious, with, with lockdown and, you know, a lot of people now suddenly working from home. That explosion of people that are trying to do their own fitness and, you know, as opposed to going, seeing a trainer. And I think the numbers will grow of people that are comfortable having someone teach them on Zoom. I know my sister was going to Pilates classes and then of course, you know, that, that all got the kibosh over that. So now she's done it via Zoom. And I guess it's. As a teacher, what's it like for you teaching someone kind of remotely? Because I know it's. I guess it's not quite the same as being right in the room with Them.

Yeah, there's a certain atmosphere that I enjoy of having, like a busy public class. And obviously classes aren't, you know, busy anymore because of limitations and the space mat spacing in the studios. Yeah. And I guess a bit of that is missing on Zoom as well. But then, I don't know, at the same time, there's advantages to it. You know, you're not getting off tfl, which I just despise. So slightly elevated mood at the start of class.

Yeah, you cut the travel.

I sometimes just try and think, like, look, things don't have to be good or bad, things just are.

Yeah, no, exactly. I think it's about adapting at the moment, isn't it? And I think everybody, I'm sure everybody listening will have some kind of adaptation they have either made or they're going to have to make. I know one of the things we spoke about was coaching Olympic athletes. So can you tell us just one or two of the. What sports were the Olympic athletes part of?

Yeah, I mean, my work with Olympic athletes was for GB Canoe, and I only worked with them for one season. But, yeah, you know, interesting people to work with physically because the girls probably especially as well, who I saw just like huge backs, strong from rowing, quite a strong core, and then not a whole lot of leg or gluteal development. So that's an interesting body to work with. You know, I find there's something interesting about being a teacher if you're anatomically minded, you know, looking at the way that someone moves. You know, yoga means union as well, Right. Psychosoma, mind, body. So being interested in, you know, the mind and like the psychoanalysts and stuff like that. Talk about online, it's like I can. I can kind of start to read the way that someone's moving and how they think. And, you know, you can find that with yourself in your own practice as well. You know, if you don't feel like expressing yourself, you don't feel super confident about something that you've got to do in life. You'll find out your shoulders come forward and you start to climb down, and then the back bends become perhaps more difficult but more rewarding. So, yeah, from a physical level, it was interesting and the same as the military, really. On a mental level, they're disciplined, they're motivated. So.

Yeah, switched on. Well, actually, one of the. I know we put on Instagram, the joys of Instagram, which is primarily where I'd say 90% of the people that subscribe to our E letter and, you know, will Be part of certain things we're kind of. We're bringing out for the whole man Academy. It's always great on there because you get instant, you know, instant responses to things. And one of them was about you working with the military, saying, are you teaching the, let's say the soldiers to be able to do yoga whilst they're out in the field and maybe they're staying somewhere for a while? Is that part of it? So they can literally have a quick routine or something, wherever they are.

Yeah, I mean, the style of yoga that we teach, the fitness yoga, it comes in blocks, right? So potentially you could go, okay, I'm going to do one upper body block and one lower body block or something like that. So it's, you know, obviously you're using your body weight, so it's very portable. So, yeah, I imagine they can take.

It wherever, do it wherever you can. Well, let's talk about Olympic freestyle wrestling. I can't say I've done any wrestling in my time, and I'm probably unlikely to, Even though I'm 6 foot 8 and pretty heavy or something like that. But for you, is that something that you really enjoyed from a young age or did you kind of, bit like with yoga, get into it because of someone else?

Good question. I don't know how I ended up wrestling. I mean, I remember, yeah, from a young age, this is probably. It's a part of the male predisposition. Right. The biology of being a male. You have seven times the amount of testosterone in your body to a female, so you're going to express that differently as a kid, and I was always wrestling, always fighting and stuff. I remember one of the older kids grabbed me in a headlock and was trying to throw me on the ground at some point and couldn't do it. And I was like, I kind of knew that I had a good. What would you call it, kinesthetic proprioception, like a good body awareness. Yeah. I started kickboxing, doing a little bit of, you know, kung fu and karate classes and that kind of stuff when I was young. And then by the time I was 15, I think the first time that I'd seen MMA was on a computer game that was like the original sort of UFC Ultimate Fight championship game. I was like, wow, it's all of the martial arts together. It's like the wrestling that I've kind of done a bit, you know, just mess around as a kid, and then the karate and boxing, kickboxing stuff. And, yeah, I actually got into mixed martial arts first and Then I started focusing on wrestling just because we don't really wrestle in high school in this country, which should. And so that became a focus after that. I love Olympic freestyle wrestling. It's, it's an awesome discipline.

MMA has exploded in the last. I know, pick a number here, but like, is 10 years too much? Because five years isn't enough. But I was thinking somewhat, you know, like in the last maybe eight years in my, with my small knowledge of it, it's, you know, with Conor McGregor and they've made it more of a show piece than, you know, I think previously, you know, where do you see that at the moment?

Yeah, it's like compound interest, isn't it? It's like a snowball rolling down a hill. It's just gaining momentum all the time. I remember hearing a statistic, something like more than, you know, more than five years ago, that it was the fastest growing sport in the world.

So there's a lot of money in it.

Yeah, I mean, I started watching ufc. I think the first one I maybe ever saw was like UFC 39.

Right.

The one I just watched last week was like UFC 240 something.

So, yeah, yeah, it's big, big business now. What, what's your take on them? Well, I guess there's two questions there. One of them was through Instagram. But who would you say, and I guess this is the part of the UFC or MMAs, who would be the best pound for pound fighter in the world? And I don't mean a boxer. I guess the person means, you know, in the MMA side.

Yeah, in the MMA side. Look, you know, Conor McGregor was interesting and he's, you probably can't say Connor currently just because he retires every five minutes.

He's in and out.

I mean, that guy's movement, you know, is interesting in the way that he, I think he has a, his degree is in, you know, human movement or something like that. Because.

Was he working with, was it Edo Portel?

Yeah, you know, the Ido portal thing. I don't know if it gets exaggerated slightly. You know, what happens with a fighter is they're doing that actual fight training. Let's say that you've got a 12 week camp, he's probably, you know, hitting the pads, wrestling, doing all the fight training for like 10 weeks of that. And then the last two weeks, you know, kind of give the fighter something a bit more novel, keep them moving around without tons of stress. Maybe, you know, you're giving them a skill to learn, a balance thing. It just takes their head out of the. At the sort of stress, the constant stress of combat. So I think that's probably what he did with Ido Portal. Then there's another fight, Carlos Condit, who's retired. He used to, he was really into movement, something called movnat, which I don't know much about. Move natural. Yeah. If you wanted to look at fighters with great movement, he would be one of them. So I guess, you know, circling back to the question, I don't know, could have been Conor McGregor but he isn't really proving that right now. So yes, it could end up being, I would say George St. Pierre.

Okay. Yeah.

Of all time.

Yeah, I guess it's as you say, it's, it's always evolving because you've got some of the guys that I hadn't heard of that then kind of seem to, you know, they have one great fight and spring up and are known by everybody. I was actually on a slightly different discipline but on the boxing. I was talking to Johnny Nelson on what's Today on Monday, recording something with him and I was just thinking, you know, I did a very small amount of kickboxing and quite frankly I didn't enjoy getting smacked in the face so I gave it a miss. But how about yourself with the side of boxing? Have you done any pure boxing or is it more just the wrestling side?

Only pure boxing in the gym. I've never competed strictly in boxing. It's strange, like I shadow box now in my training as a warm up and I'm more interested in, you know, the skill development and playing around with my own boxing than anything else. I don't roll, don't do jujitsu or wrestling or anything like that anymore. But back when I was training I was, I was always very left handed. Like anyone who knows the boxer Pauline Maldenaghi, I was always like very jab and left hook and I'd throw a lot of kicks. So I was probably a bit like you, you know, I didn't want to broken nose every other week. So I've kind of been, I guess.

It depends on how seriously you want to take it. And I know for me that the moment I thought I'm pretty much done with this was I was kind of, you know, sparring very lightly with a guy and he swung around and his heel kind of tickled the hairs on the end of my nose. And you know, had he hit that, I would have been able to smell around corners. So I was just like, you know what, I'll stick with football in the gym, thanks. Very much, actually. This can make me sound like I'm some kind of. I hang with all the fighters, but I. Last year, Anthony Joshua did the world. Set a world record for teaching, like, boxer size at the. What's it? York hall down in Bethnal Green. Is it Bethnal Green? And I was part of the. Kind of the world record attempt. So I saw him there, and I remember he was. He was, you know, boxing in the gym and doing some kind of, you know, show sparring. And I was like, fucking hell, this guy is immense. So I couldn't believe it when he lost to the little. The little guy last year. So I wondered, if you follow the boxing, what your thoughts were on that, because that was a absolute kind of. You couldn't believe that he'd lost.

Yeah. Andy Ruiz knocked him out. Yeah. You know what? Like, there's. I mean, we're in the UK and AJ is more than just a boxer to us. Right. He's like. What is it, like some model, right?

He's a brand, isn't he now, and stuff like that.

And he's on TV with Burg Grylls and things like that. So I'm not saying that it was. It was hype or anything like that. He's a great boxer, you know, great boxer. But Andrew Ruiz was always going to be dangerous in that fight. So it wasn't like, you know, I wasn't as surprised as maybe everyone else. Yeah, I thought he boxed brilliantly in the rematch, get his title back. That was. That was awesome to see.

Well, I think with the boxing side of it, it's. There's a few more people involved, aren't there? Now, I know there's a fight this weekend, but at least it makes it a bit more interesting when you've got a few different guys around who are competing. Whereas you had that quite a few years where the twins were basically dominating everything. One of the questions from Instagram was, talk about on the fighting side, but for you in life, who do you. I mean, the whole man academy is based around guys getting together to talk. And who of you, have you grown up, kind of had a mentor or someone that you kind of go to when things are a bit challenging?

Hard to pick one. Straight off the top of my head, I kind of feel like I've always had a mentor. So much a mentor, but like a coach or someone in one specific area of my life. Right. So I have, like a jujitsu coach and then, you know, whoever is teaching me at university or, you know, whatever like that. Yeah. So it's not like I've ever had one key mentor. What I would say as advice to people listening, be like, invest in yourself and get yourself a team of mentors might not be the right word, but, you know, good people around you, you know, there's that thing that you turn into the five people you surround yourself with. Right. You must be like, well, you know, these are the people I've got around me, and I didn't exactly choose them or whatever. But it's like, well, I don't know, could you spend some time reading, you know, a certain author and then that can kind of start to, in a way, become one of those five people? And could you hire a life coach? Or maybe you've got some sort of trauma from early in your life and you keep replaying strange patterns in your relationships and maybe you need to hide. Hire a psychotherapist or something like that, Right?

Yeah.

Invest in yourself and just create a team of people around you.

I think with that, it's about just kind of trying new things and switching up a bit. And I think the important point there for guys listening is I always say the person doesn't even have to be alive for you to be kind of mentored by them. You know, you could pick someone, one of the greats who, you know, is, as you say, maybe a coach or a fighting coach or anything. And, you know, you can consume everything they've ever written or YouTubes or, you know, audiobooks and trying to get around those people. Funny, after the chap that was on the podcast two weeks ago, Wade, he did. He worked for a day with Arnold Schwarzenegger and that'd be a great example of, you know, I've read his book and you can obviously see all his training. And it's like, you know, just pick someone, perhaps go deep on what you can learn from that person. Is there anyone in the. On the training side that as you were growing up, you kind of. For me, I remember seeing, you know, Greg Plitt. So he was. It's a ridiculous story, but he was a. I think was a former or he was a Marine out in the. In the States. And, you know, he had an amazing figure, you know, was, say, a, you know, cover model body and did lots of modes. For me, I remember seeing, you know, Greg Plitt. So he was. It's a ridiculous story, but he was a. I think was a former or he was a Marine out in the. In the States and, you know, he had an amazing figure, you know, was, say, a, you know, cover Model body and did lots of motivational videos. And I have to laugh because it's, it's ridiculous, but I think he, he was doing a video where he was trying to outrun a train and unfortunately tripped over and the train run over him, killed him, which isn't, isn't a great move.

Oh, right. For.

Yeah. And I, when I first heard about, I was like, no, no, that can't be right. And he was in the prime of his life. But I remember watching his training videos and being like, I was consuming a lot of what he did. I just wonder if you. There's anybody on the training side of it that used to kind of follow or watch on. Even now online.

You know, from a training standpoint, I was, I'd cycle through fighters. Like, someone would come in and they would have, you know, I like, I'm a creative and I like people who have sort of an unorthodox style or fighting. So it wouldn't even be like always the big names. And I'd kind of be like, okay, how does that person train? And kind of, you know, look up all the training videos and read interviews with them and things like that. But I mean, you know, in terms of like, you know, individuation, like becoming yourself, integrating yourself and things, I don't think that fighters were always or always the best, the best role models, I think, you know, sometimes. But it's more like what I'm interested in reading is, you know, the concept of masculinity versus postmodernity and postmodernism, which I think is the sort of force against it, which suppresses it and our society. And so most of my reading is back through those two concepts. So in terms of masculinity, it's like, you know, the psychoanalysts, Jung, Freud, I'm interested in going all the way back with that through to, you know, Greek mythology and things like that. Psycho psychologists like Roy Baumeister, Jordan Peterson, even, you know, like classical first wave feminists like Camille Paglia, who. Second wave, should I say? Yeah, those, those people inspire my thoughts more. More than fighters.

Well, actually, you make a good point there because I know even with Jordan Peterson, I mean, he seems to be everywhere. If you put YouTube on what have you at the moment. And again, it's funny because without YouTube, I probably wouldn't have necessarily heard of him, but now, you know, you can access all of his talks and it certainly is never not thought provoking.

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, you know, for me, when I was growing up and I was at college. Right. I mean, I was listening to an episode of Wholeman Academy, and I know that you were talking about how you sort of grew up in Ken and your experiences, like a white male surrounded by, you know, predominantly. Yeah, white people. Right. Yeah, white men. And my experience is like, I. I mean, I was born in Glasgow, but I grew up in Leicester.

Yeah.

Birmingham. And then I've always lived in southeast London. So as a result of that, I definitely, like, experienced racism. Saw racism.

Yeah.

And then, you know, my interest in masculinity and postmodernism is kind of like there's an argument as to whether we live in modernism or postmodern state. I'd say that we live in modernism, but it's influenced and suppressed and being ruined by postmodernism. And so for me, I was like, I never want anyone to go through that. I never want anyone to feel like they are being judged and represented by, you know, their gender, their ethnicity, their whatever.

Yeah, their label.

Yeah. So for me, you know, I found out about individualism as the polar opposite concept, because obviously, you know, racism and things like that, they exist under tribalism and collective. Collective identities, identity politics. And on the other side, that's, you know, individualism, which is what Jordan Peterson talked about. And he talked about masculinity, and it's like there was no one talking about that. It was a very, like, a much more like feminine society. Because obviously this fatherlessness, which is rife and. But everyone has a mother and then, you know, they go to school and predominantly female teaching staff. And, you know, what is it to be a man? It means, you know, you're not born a man, A woman just is a man has to kind of become a man. Right. And if you look back at the psychoanalyst and Freud, it's talking about, like, he's talking about separation from that union with the mother, you know, and you can see this archetype played out as well throughout all of our culture and all of our history. Look at stuff like Star wars and, you know, the Lion King and anything really were Second Private Ryan. Like, the man has to leave and.

Go on his mission if his hero's journey.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't remember the question.

But that's all right. It's interesting. It's an interesting topic to talk about because I think, you know, that it's funny when I've watched different interviews with Jordan Peterson, and often it's the interview he's trying to trip him up, but I always love watching because he sits Back in his chair, and he's always very relaxed. And, you know, it's like brilliant because he takes on a few questions, then he slowly dismantles them, which always makes you off. But at least he's confident about talking about what I think. I think even with Wade, when he said, a lot of guys aren't quite sure how they should be acting or what they should be saying about certain things. And I'm like, if you can own your own shit and just be like, you know what? These are my views, these are my opinions, and no one else should be there to try and prove you wrong. It's like, you know what? That's my thoughts on it at the moment.

Yeah. I mean, the thing that I think Jordan always faces in interviews when, you know, he's sort of having to defend himself because, I mean, at the end of the day, we're talking about a self help author, right? 12 Rules for Life stuff like stand up straight with your shoulders back. And it's like, oh, he is such a controversial man, right? And what the interviewer is doing is they're always coming from the sort of postmodern state where they're saying, like, look, I mean, this actually dates Back to Peggy McIntosh who wrote a really unacademic paper, like completely from her own subjective experience called A Description of Male White Privilege or something. And this sort of influenced like post Marxist thought. So based on that, there's this idea of like, okay, Marxism, communism didn't work out, right? It killed 135 million people within the last century. So they had to have a rebrand. And it's like the most successful rebrand that anyone's ever done, right? So authors like professors like Ernesto Laclou did this rebrand and they're like, okay, it's like post modernism now. And instead of being like proletariat versus bourgeoisie, we're gonna. We need to create attention and an aggression within society, among groups, and we'll do this through identity politics. And we'll divide up around like ethnicity and gender and we'll create a victim pyramid and say that everything is based on the structure of power and people aren't helping each other. And nothing's based on competence or meritocracy or anything like that, right? And so when Jordan Peterson goes into an interview, the idea is like, you're supporting men with this male privilege. And here's my examples, you know, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, all these rich, powerful guys. That isn't how men are represented in society. Men make up the Very top of society. Not exclusively, but dominantly. Right. They also make up the very bottom of society. I make up 90% of the prison population is male. Dead people are male. Men have died in war throughout history. They construct culture at a huge cost to themselves. You know, they work the most dangerous jobs and there's all these other things. And I'm definitely not playing into identity politics. I'm not trying to like, claim victimhood.

It's interesting to talk about it though, really despise that.

But I'm just saying that they take this one little bit of data that, like, there's some rich men out there in the world more representative than rich women. And they're like, therefore you're sort of on the side of oppression and privilege. And I'm saying that, you know, that's patently untrue. It's obviously untrue. Like, if you think that your life is determined by some sort of secret society like the Illuminati, the patriarchy, or, you know, women are ruining everything, or like immigrants are coming here and ruining everything or whatever that is, like, you've lost the game of life already.

It's funny because I think the more podcasts we do, the more it's interesting to hear from guys of all different types and from different sectors to get their take on kind of man's place at the moment and knowing what they say, what they feel comfortable even talking about, which always find interesting. And one of the, I think we touched on it. One of the things that it comes back to for a lot of guys is now the working from home, which I do believe people, it's a novel thing at the moment. But a lot of guys didn't plan to work from home and they were kind of, you know, suddenly forced to, which means that you might not have an office space or you've got kids and what have you at home. And I think really that will affect a large percentage of people's kind of mental health. And then you've got the guys that live on their own that are like, well, your interaction was maybe on the train in the morning and the office or, you know, your workplace. And now if you just get up, work from home, then shower, eat your dinner and sit on the sofa, you're like, where's the interaction? So I do believe that that's going to be a. Perhaps people don't understand the long term effects of that because it's still, oh, I'm working from home, I don't have to commute. And you're like a Lot of us met our partners at work or after work, so there's that side of it. But I was speaking to an osteopath the other day who made me laugh because she said, we've been really, really busy since we reopened. And I said, is that just because there was a lot of demand? She said, no, we call it the Joe Wicks Effect. And I was like, all right. And as I was running it through my small pea brain, she said, you know, there was so many people that suddenly started working from home and trying to do the Joe Wicks workouts or any kind of home workouts under no tuition, that lots of people were seeing her with shoulder problems and back problems and what have you. And she mentioned the recovery, and it was funny because then I saw that you'd written about recovery and the different options. One of them was, like, wearing compression gear. And I just wondered if you could tell us, the guys at home, a little bit about kind of the benefits of compression gear and why you think they're a useful ally.

Yeah, I mean, you can train as much as you can recover. Okay, so imagine you've got, let's say, three buckets, right? And in these three buckets, you've got one called flexibility mobility. The other one is called anaerobic, sort of strength work, right? So imagine there's a dumbbell on that one, and then the other one's, like, aerobic. So going for a long walk or a long run or something. Each bucket has capacity of like, one pint of water, okay? So your energy, the actual amount that you can exert, your effort, you've got three pints of water. So you want to put. If you're just going for maximum amount of training that you can do and recover from, you want to put one pint in each, right?

Yeah.

Tip all the pints in one, you're going to get this overspill, hence over training. So, yeah, if you're looking to get as much training as you can and recover from it, then I would say spread out your training across aerobic, anaerobic, strength, conditioning, mobility, flexibility work. And then in addition to that, you know, work at your recovery again. You know, the fitness industry, the yoga industry, for different reasons, is very irresponsible. Right. And I grew up reading, you know, bodybuilding magazines sometimes or, you know, martial arts magazine or something. It would have, like, this guy trains three times a day and he does, you know, 20 sets of this bench press or something. And, like, I could never recover from it, and it took me years later until I realized that everyone in the industry was taking steroids. So presuming you're not doing that, you can still do things like you can manipulate your testosterone. Right. You can, maybe you avoid flax based supplement because of the high levels of phytoestrogen. So actually use that with, with women to treat polycystic ovaries and testosterone. Right. You could make sure that you get enough sleep, preferably going to bed at like 10pm I don't do that. I'm just saying that that's what you should probably do. Right. Avoid alcohol compression gear was your original question. And as far as I'm aware, that just kind of helps blood flow because you're trying to get rid of the blood pooling. I can't give you a super scientific answer on that. Yeah, get like a compression sponsor or something.

No, but I think that's, you know, when I was growing up, there was no such thing as, or not for the, not for the common man, as it were. There was no such thing as compression socks and elbows and God knows what else. But then probably about five, six years ago when I started doing obstacle course racing and you do the longer distance stuff and then you'd see brands like I think TXU and others who would bring out all these different, the socks and say the elbow ones. And I think for a lot of people they weren't even sure if they necessarily worked. But you know, if you think they work, then that's better than nothing.

Yeah. I didn't usually wear them for racing on things, but I know the idea is that if you actually race in the compression gear, it stops basically the muscle from sort of shaking and vibrating and needing to exert additional contraction to stabilize itself. If you think about half, kind of like shaking as you hit the ground when you run.

No, it's a, it's. I mean, it's big business as well. So it's no wonder that every man and his dog has bought out a, you know, a version of them. The other thing I know you'd written about was kind of learn to breathe for recovery. And I guess that coming from a man who I've. I had a spontaneous pneumothorax, which means I had a pleurectomy, which means that my left lung is fully inflated all the time. It doesn't go up and down, which is, was a real joyous operation. But you know, that made me learn a bit more about utilizing or maximizing your breath work. And I just wondered if you could talk a bit about kind of, you probably Know more than I do about that. You know what the basics could be for a man to breathe better.

Yeah, I mean, great question. Because if you think about your training as a pyramid, right? And by training, I just mean your movement as well, your quality of movement is the quality of your life, basically. So at the bottom of this pyramid, the base of it is breathing. If you lose. So, you know, if I said to you, you're going to lose 10 pounds of body fat, where do you think you're going to lose that from? You're probably going to tell me, like, I don't know, sweat or something like that. Eight and a half out of those ten pounds is going to come from breath. You're literally going to breathe out body fat. Right. Your ability to recover, your ability to balance your nervous system so you can lift again, your ability to not fit, feel anxious and depressed and ADHD and all of these other things, Right. If you believe that that's a condition or not, they're primarily. Primarily they have a relationship to your breath. Right. And there's two great books on this that I recommend. One's called the Oxygen Advantage, and even better one, I think is by James Nestor called Breath. And it's like what's happened throughout our evolution is as we stopped eating, like, fibrous things and meat and whatever, we started eating bread and processed shit, right?

Yeah.

And then the brain continued to expand because, you know, our brains expand as we've continued to adapt to our environment and become more cerebral and a bit less physically embodied. The mouth has basically got smaller. So the roof of the mouth has come down. And then what it's ended up with is, like, most people snore and snoring, it takes years off your life. And it's like, well, why is that? It really damages your recovery. For me, I didn't even have the opportunity to snore because I've got quite a thin nose. Right. So on top of that, it's never broken. It's like, indestructible, but it's definitely, definitely hurt and it definitely bled a lot, right. But it's never broken. However, that's. That further deviated my septum, so I just couldn't breathe my nose at all when I lay down. So, you know, lay down, open my mouth and breathe my mouth all night. And, you know. So I guess we share that experience of breathing difficulties somewhat different way. But earlier this year, this was a painful operation. People told me it wouldn't be. I had a sort of double. I can't remember what it's herbalate reduction and deviated septum. And I mean, it's just like feeling like you've been punched in the nose for a week and it bleeds continuously. Maybe two weeks. That's probably the best decision I've ever made. About done just before lockdown. And. Yeah, so what I'm doing now to try and retrain myself to not breathe through my mouth when I sleep because it's so bad for you, breathing into your upper chest, all the stress receptors are when you mouth breath is putting tape over my mouth and going to sleep, training myself to breathe in my nose. It's not ideal. I'm trying to rip it off my bed in the morning.

But yeah, just that vision of, you know, I don't know if you've got a partner or not, but you imagine like on a first date or, you know, you've finally gone back, gone back to your place and whatever's happened, happened. It's like, right, you know, good night, give you a kiss. What the fuck are you doing? I've just taped my mouth up. There's nothing weird here.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, honestly, I'd say my advice for that is do it, you know, do all your weird stuff straight away because, you know, you wouldn't be as authentic as you can.

Be if that's the biggest takeaway. Just do all your weird stuff to start with. You know, I don't know the technicalities this, but I know because we've got little kids and. And we'd learn a bit more about how the effect of your tonsils and with snoring as a youngster can affect like, your jaw development or teeth development as well, which I'm trying to investigate a little bit more. You'll be pleased to know I did break my nose. I got kicked in the face in football when the guy tried to do an overhead kick and he missed the ball and he hit me here and it snapped the top of my nose, which was. Which was quite painful. Well, yeah, thankfully I go straight on, but because it was like a clean crack across there, it didn't go either side. But it was not a fun experience. And yeah, that same for me, it meant that it affected your nasal passage, which meant that for, you know, for ages you didn't quite breathe properly. So it's surprising how if you can have these operations like you say, people won't realize how important it is breathing through your nose and not your mouth whilst you're asleep. Another little something for people to be like, do I snore? And you're like, you probably, you know, primarily, I would guess, all of the. All the guys listening, there's a high percentage of them that probably snore, especially if they've had a beverage or two. Quick one about what keeps you awake at night. Apart from. Apart from small nostrils.

Yeah. The tape on my mouth. You mean, like. Yeah, I'm guessing you mean it. You know what worries you, honestly, like, the shift of the state from modernity to post modernity. I think that we've entered this age where we are super fortunate, just, like incredibly lucky. Right? Like, how great is it to be alive? And I don't mean that as in, like, you have to feel like it's great. I'm not telling you feel it's inappropriate to feel sad or depressed or whatever, Right?

Yeah.

But, you know, I could start a business today by a drag and drop website, and I could teach myself to do that on YouTube. And Africa now has the child mortality rate that Britain had in the 1950s. Like, all these amazing things that, you know, have happened through achieving a state of modernity and treating each other as individuals. Right. I mean, we live in London. How great is that? Right? It's most successful example of that ever. Right? And then. And then from this kind of place of like, fashion and sort of virtue signaling and jumping on whatever's kind of trending on Instagram, it's always something from this sort of ugly rebranding of postmodernism that we've got. So take it right back. You've got Derrida and Foucault, these two French philosophers who kind of came up with, like, the idea of everything is based on power. It's a power struggle. It's oppression. And, you know, there's no such thing as. There's no such thing as the world, right? This kind of got distilled down. So it's a little bit like. I think of it like Chinese whispers, right? And it starts off with something a bit like Foucault and Dada. It doesn't sound great. If you read their theories, they sound quite dark and destructive. But you've got to think that society was different back then, right? If we read something by Winston Churchill and Maya Angelou, they're gonna sound crazy.

Yeah. Totally different.

But it's passed on down. And it goes through, like, Immanuel Kant, who has the subjectivity of sense perception, so he's able to make everyone question everything, right? So I'm here and, you know, what I talk about online and what I want to impart in this is that there's this idea that like, you know, masculinity is like, doesn't exist. You know, like, just define it for yourself and whatever. And I'm saying like, no, actually it's already been defined by like some of the greatest minds that ever existed, like psychoanalysm, Greek mythology, and you know, right up to modern day people were talking about it and like, it's, it exists. So let's understand what that is and then we can have a conversation about it. Right. And you know, rather than kind of creating gender wars and identity politics around it and going all post modern about it, this theory got this Chinese whispers kind of. It came out the other side, like really dark and sinister because Kant's theory of sense perception is like this, okay, I can say, isn't everything great? And you're like, yeah, everything's great. Or is this light really bright? And you'll say, yeah, it's really bright. So isn't this orange sweet? And you'll say, yeah, yes, this orange is sweet. But if I go, okay, let's eat a bowl of ice cream and then we'll try the orange again. And now it's sour. So it's like, oh, so actually nothing is anything or isn't this guy acting within his masculine essence? But then let's put him next to someone who's really living that life. Right? Arnold Schwarzenegger, for example.

Big alpha male.

Yeah, exactly. And I don't just even mean that in the archetypal way. I mean that in his pursuit of like becoming the governor of California and things like very masculine presence in the world. Right, yeah. So, you know, and then suddenly this other guy doesn't seem super masculine anymore. And yeah, it's come through now to this point where there's this whole language around postmodernism where it's like, okay, if you're a different gender or a different ethnicity or you've had a different life experience, then you can't talk to that person because everything you say is going to be like a microaggression. So that's a term founded by Chester Pierce, and it has no real cognitive or behavioral research behind. It's just founded on anecdotes and self reporting. And what the academic kind of community think is going to happen is that that's just going to stop people talking to each other. Right. And treating each other as individuals. And it's like, well, that's the whole goal of postmodernism, that we're not able to have a discourse that we're not able to discuss something like masculinity. The whole point of postmodernism, and it's rephrased by Ernesto Declau and modern Marxist thinkers like Alex Kalinikos, is that we just shout it down and shut it down. And you can see this happening online, like on Instagram, right? If we look at masculinity, it's defined almost 100% by women, right? And it's like, what's the biggest masculine trending time on Instagram? Like toxic masculinity, right? Dangerous, destructive terms like that, you know, is a result of this sort of postmoran culture. And then if you go to Twitter and, you know, look at what's kind of happens. Feminism, right? So it starts off with this movement of brave women who are trying to achieve equality, then it becomes radical feminism and it sort of shifts through into third and fourth wave, where the number one, like use hashtag for that on Twitter and Instagram is killallmen. And I had a look at this, right? I had a look, and the second one is hashtag, all men are trash. Right? So I have a look at this just before I come on this, because I thought, oh, this might come up actually. And I want to know how many times it's been tagged. Yeah, it's been tagged like 25,000 times. But, you know, if you look at the post, right, it's not surprising that that isn't a discourse about masculinity. It isn't a discourse that's helping because at the end of the day, men and women and everyone of every experience, you know, we have to work together and live together and treat each other as, as human beings. So that kind of gratitude, massive gratitude for where we are, constant stress that we are potentially going to lose that because people think it's cool to be like a bit woke and postmodern and stuff. Yeah, that is probably what keeps me up at night.

Go woke, go broke. It's a new world of trying to navigate all these different, either sayings or movements or whatever it becomes at the moment, I think just adds to the confusion for guys as to, like, what, you know, should you be supporting this, should you be saying this, etc, etc. The good news is my next question is, what do you do for fun?

Probably reading up on my postmodernism and masculinity. I don't know, like, I'm not sure how, how fun life is supposed to be anyway. I think it's supposed to be meaningful, right? So I do do hard things and some Interesting. Like, for example, you know, repeating a handstand over and over again on parallel bars.

Yeah.

It's hard and it might sound boring, but there's. There's details and, like, minute movements and different serratus anterior and all this stuff that I find interesting. So, yeah, if I describe it to you, probably doesn't sound like fun, but it's meaningful.

Yeah, I know. It's, you know, fun for different people, different things, and so I appreciate it. That's why it's always good to ask people, because I'm trying to think which podcast guest said to me, I don't have time for fun because I've got like, five businesses and three kids. And I was like, fair enough. Okay. You know, maybe he wants to put some of that in his life. What would people be surprised to know about you?

It's probably. I've come to a point where I don't love things like Myers Briggs personality tests anymore. I used to think they were interesting. I was like an ENTP T if anyone's wondering about that. But I think they kind of pigeonhole us. And again, I'm talking about individuation, like becoming who you want to be and individuals. Right. And, yeah. I just think, like, if anything, like, right now, maybe it's post lockdown or whatever. I might have just shifted slightly over into introvert. I kind of feel like I'm one of those ambiverts. I'm kind of half and half on that. I think that that would surprise people because obviously social media being relatively outspoken.

Yeah.

Which I don't want to be. It's just like, I feel like you have to tell the truth and do something meaningful.

I was just gonna say, you know, being your own level of authentic is something I, you know, I've. I've learned to do instead of kind of trying to people please, you're like, you know what? I'll be who I am and I'll say what I think. And, you know, if you don't like it, then, you know, I'll find some people that do. And. And it's. I think I was with the guy last night, we were talking about this and just said, you know, it's a big weight off your shoulders when you're not trying to please everybody.

Yeah. You can't be for everybody. The whole thing about social media, of course, is that people don't always want to have discourse. And it's hard even in an Instagram caption. I mean, I fill my captions up.

Yeah.

It's hard to get across everything that I want to say on that, people kind of take things, you know, face value.

Yeah. Isn't that funny, though? Because I know obviously Instagram is a different character count limit to, let's say, Twitter. But, you know, I've found it ourselves where we, you know, we post stuff on Twitter, mainly just kind of, you know, a much shortened version of what will be on Instagram. But it's so funny because you'll have this really interesting post on Instagram, then you've got a basically slash, 90% of it, which just doesn't have the same feel. In the end, sometimes I'm like, oh, you know what? Fuck it. I'm just not going to bother, because is it. You've just lost the whole feeling of what we were trying to say by, you know, stripping out every. Every third letter.

Yeah. I mean, you know, an example of that. And this is. It's disappointing. And it's the reason that I don't love social media, although I'm on it all the time professionally. It's a strange thing. It's like I posted, you know, in preparation for this podcast coming up. I was like, you know, masculinity exists, and I can't reimagine it for myself or reinvent it for myself. I can present it my own style.

Well, good thing to say. Yeah.

I can't just invent it for myself. Like, it's been invented by, you know, narrated at least by like, Jung Freud cohort potentially talks about it and, you know, Greek mythology. And I'm not gonna be arrogant enough to just think that that's mine, right? Post that and I have the analytics, right? And I see who I lost with followers is I was blocked by, like, a few accounts, right? And I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Whenever I say masculinity, people kind of react strongly to it, right? And the only thing that I could find in similarities that these people are from, like, the LGBTQ community, right? We overuse the word community, individuals, and it's like, I don't know what that is, and we'll never know because it's their personal experience. But I'm assuming that there's something about masculinity myself, like a heterosexual male, and it's like, it felt exclusionary for them or something like that. The point is, like, I'm. I'm pointing when I say that to people like Carl Jung, you know, they said, masculinity has nothing to do with your sexual orientation. Right? It's for everyone. Like, there's no Advantage or disadvantage of masculinity. Yeah, sexual orientation. But it's like, I don't have the space to put that on everything every time I post it or want people to do their own research a bit and just have some confidence in me. But obviously that's the problem. Right? And that's why I don't do Twitter. Because you want it to be longer. So I like blog posts, podcasts. Instagram is about as short as I'll go.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. Because it's like, you know what it means. You can explain yourself. I kind of realized that sometimes you could explain yourself for like 10,000 words, and at the end, people still would have just picked out what they do or don't like about it, and that have ignored the rest. So I don't mean it's a. It's. It's selective sharing on our part, and I always think it's selective consumption and, you know, on the other person's part, because, yeah, you can. You can write all you want and someone at the end of it will still take out of it. You're like, you haven't read what I've just said, have you?

Yeah, it's a difficult thing as well. And you've got to try and be patient and kind of forgiving people who misinterpret what you say because, you know, they're dealing with their own reality and reality, and it's not really got anything. Anything to do with you.

It's only going to get a bit more funky in the months to come, believe me. Well, last question is, and we always kind of say to guys, you know, if you could give one bit of advice to guys to do life better, and it can be as simple or as complex as you like, what would that be?

Okay, so let me answer this in two parts. There's the physical movement side of it, which I've talked about, and then there's the sort of masculinity side of it, which we talked about. So, first and foremost, as JP said, you stand up straight with your shoulders back. Right? Corrective posture allows you to assert your dominance, allows you to actually have my levels of rest and testosterone, and allows you to be competent and dominant and expressive in the world. Right? More attractive. There's just so many things based on that. So fix your picture by doing some yoga, doing some back bends, and whether it's an elastic band at home or a dumbbell or a barbell at the gym, do some ropes, like strengthen your back, your shoulders are pulled back, and then Consciously stand like that. And beneath that, even more fundamentally, make effort to fix your breathing, like your nose, your mouth, whatever that is. If you need a surgery or something or some sort of device to assist with that, read the books. Breath Oxygen Advantage. Figure out how to. How to improve that. Your nose, your nasal structure is partly musculature, right? So it will get smaller and weaker and it will get stronger and better. And if you don't breathe through your nose, it will swell and close up, and if you breathe through it, it'll open up and figure that out. Okay. Figure that out. So I guess it's just like.

Good point. Yeah.

Suggestion. Secondarily, you know, we're all here. Yoga means union, right? Union of the self. And individuation means, you know, becoming kind of becoming yourself. And if we get really spiritual about it, we talk about transcendence. We're all. We're talking the same. The same language. And so for the men, you know, listening to this podcast would say that we live in currently a society which is influenced by postmodernism, so that we're scared of masculinity. We've been told that something toxic, a lot of us, you know, didn't have fathers around, you know, female teaching staff and all these other things, and we need to. Need to learn what that is and then embrace it because it always exists. So I would say become interested in the idea of that. I think that's fascinating. I can't see how becoming yourself and the self that you have a biological predisposition to be would not be an interesting thing. Surround yourself with a team who will support you in that. Whether that's like a psychotherapist, a life coach, jujitsu coach, personal trainer, yoga teacher, whatever. Read the Madness of Crowds. I love that book. Will kind of describe on a broad level the dangers of postmodernism towards masculinity. And 12 rules for life is great as well. Read Is There Anything Good About Men? By Baumeister Baumeinster Schwarzeneg. Such as.

Such a good title.

Yeah, interesting. This one here is good. David D. Gilmour's Manhood in the Making. Cultural Concepts of Masculinity. How there's differences, but there's also a continuous similarity that's expressed across cultures. Become interested in that. Learn what that is for yourself. Go forth, express it. And to any females who are listening as well, I guess, you know, support. Support the men in your life and doing that, you know.

Yeah, no, it's. There's so many, you know, great books that guys can read. And I think it's, you know, as we all know, everybody's on their own kind of journey. So, you know, maybe you haven't even thought about reading some of these books, but I was thinking it's like, you know what, you know, pick one of them, read it and just see what comes up for you because it's, it might help you navigate what is increasingly becoming a more challenging environment for us guys to know what we're, you know, what we can and can't say, what we should be thinking, how should be dressing, listening to reading, etc.

Yeah, I'd encourage people to be brave. And I mean, I don't mean to be offensive or triggering is the sort of gross, sort of modern word for it, isn't it? But it just inevitably will be just by expressing the. My thoughts, my experience. Yeah. You know, be brave. And if, you know, you have to kind of forgive people as well. So if friend who's like starts talking about their sort of, you know, male privilege or something ridiculous like this, you have to kind of try and engage them in a conversation that isn't postmodern shouting in their face based on some Twitter memes. You read, read a book, take a breath through your nose and engage in a compassionate discourse with that person brave enough to start to occupy the space online. If you are online, if you're an influencer or you work online or something like that. Because at the minute masculinity is defined online by women who hate masculinity and mostly, you know, hate men. And you can look at, you don't have to go online to see that. You could read like the Bitch Doctrine by Laurie Penny or something like that.

It's definitely food for thought. And I think that's why with the podcast, the more guys we speak to, the more you just get some really good suggestions for books or different angles to make us a think a bit more. And obviously the big one for us is doing life better. Perfect. Well, look, we're going to let you go. What's your plans now? Have you got a relaxing afternoon?

I've got two more training sessions today, so I talked about the kind of buckets of training earlier. I'm going to do some mobility work and I'm going to do some handstand work on Parallax, which is my strength and conditioning.

Very good. I'd like to say that I was going to go and do some handstands, but maybe a few press ups and I'm lucky I've got a home gym. So I don't have to. I don't have to go anywhere to do that kind of stuff. But it's finding the time in between everything else. But I always try and after a podcast, say, like, right, just stop and go and do a bit of exercise or something, get outside. Just to kind of give your legs a bit of a going over in your brain a break.

Yes. I'll go for a walk myself if it didn't look so.

If it wasn't pissing down. Right. Well, look, Ben, I appreciate all your time and your knowledge and your thoughts. It's much appreciated and, you know, appreciate everybody that's listening as well. What's the best way to get in contact with you? We'll put your website on the show notes. Is that. Is that the best way?

Yeah, I mean, I'm Enharrison Yoga all as one word on Instagram. I have a Facebook page as well, but I don't check that too often. So if you want to talk to me on Instagram.

Yeah.

Later this year, I'm planning to get a bit more into writing blog posts and for publication and for LinkedIn.

Yeah.

If you go to my website, BenHarrison Yoga.com I'm aiming to produce a newsletter, so you should get an invite to that. And B, I want to take mindfulness away from the kind of esoteric, inaccessible space like yoga and make it super accessible, really. Kind of like westernized breathing exercise, mental resiliency. And so I'm going to be releasing a program for that which I hope will appeal to men.

Brilliant. When you do, let us know and perhaps jump on the pod, even if it's a shorter one. We just hit all the points. I think mindfulness is. I sense we could cover lots and lots of topics there, but mindfulness is one of the ones that we're big on trying to encourage guys to explore. So, yeah, whenever you're ready, give us a shout. And also, obviously, we have our own E letter goes out each week, so if you ever want to contribute to that as well, be my guest.

Perfect. Yeah, I'll jump on that.

Brilliant. Lovely. Well, Ben, I appreciate all your time and we'll speak to you soon.

Thanks so much, Anthony.

All right, thank you, mate.