EP043 - Not just a man - Adil Hussain

So this is the whole Man Academy podcast. My guest today is Adil Hussain. I actually got in touch with Adil on Instagram and saw what he was talking about and videos about manliness, about purpose, about things like focus, etc, etc. I'll run through a few quick bits about Adil. He was born and raised in southeast London to first generation parents originally from India and Pakistan. Growing up with an eastern upbringing, a predominantly white neighborhood in London caused him to think and feel differently about the ideas that his parents wished upon him, which is understandable. Fast forward a few years. His parents divorced and at 17 he was suddenly the man of the house. We're going to go on to your story, but one of the interesting things you wrote was at one point your life wasn't a disaster, but you grew into a man riddled with insecurities, a lack of confidence, bad relationship with food, anger issues, and the inability to commit to any relationship. I'm pretty sure that various guys listening will nod their head to some, if not all of it. And I can, I can get some of that as well. So firstly, how are you and where are you?

I'm doing very well. I'm at home in southeast London in Abbey Wood, working from home. So still got the nine to five. But yeah, I'm just trying to get through the day as it were. I'm doing very well.

Sounds good. And we were just talking off and he said off air as if we're doing some like live broadcast for some media channel. But we're just talking before we started recording about working from home. And you'll notice for the people that are watching as opposed to listening, that Adila's got a nice white crisp shirt on and a blazer, which makes me feel very, you know, I haven't dressed up for the occasion. But just talk about the feeling that it gives you when you bother to get dressed up, especially when you're working from home. How's that been for you?

Yeah, so when I, when lockdown first came into effect, I made a point to make sure that I dressed up every day as if I was going to work. One, I just really enjoyed dressing up as it was anyway, but I didn't.

Want to miss it.

But two, it just meant that I could shift out of the kind of guest being at home, the comfortable element of, you know, just relaxing and get into the kind of work mindset and I'll put it all over my Instagram and everything. And it was really inspiring others to do the same thing, trying to maintain a routine in the morning, as it normally would be for me. Going to work just really helped me keep that. I think it helped me maintain my sanity, to be honest, because if I just was being, you know, just having to be at home, work, never really leaving the house, and always being in the same clothing, I think I would have gone mad.

Yeah, we.

I know we said earlier it's the blurred lines of working from home. And you made a really interesting point, which was, you know, changing your clothes maybe means changing your kind of mindset and your state between I'm at work and I'm at home. And I know we've spoken about the blurred lines of, you know, you might be working and then you've got family there and what have you. But I think it's good if you can. If you can change your. Change your outfit even. It just means you're trying to kind of compartmentalize the work and being at home. And let's talk about the reason why I kind of. You were bought into my circle of trust, as it were, was through Instagram and seeing that you'd been talking about, you know, some of the life lessons that you had and challenging guys to actually kind of go a bit deeper. But one of the things you said was it all started when I began losing my hair and going to the gym. So tell us, tell us a quick bit about that.

So growing up, I grew up with.

My dad was very much about, you know, it's very manly man. And he was, put things on me like, you know, be tougher, be stronger, like, why are you not very confident? And things like this, and it's little things or you're too sensitive and these things kind of really. I didn't really realize how much they affected me growing up, but I never really felt manly or like an alpha male or very attractive. I had. I was quite overweight pretty much all of my childhood up until the age of maybe say 23, 24. And it was basically the reason how I got into fitness was because I like this girl at university and we had a bit of a thing. It was kind of a new thing for, in my. In my world, for a white girl to be interested in a brown man, it just didn't happen to me. And we had a. We had a little bit of a romance, but then she got back with her ex boyfriend and she was quite open with me about it and said, oh, you know, he's got like great body and his biceps. And she didn't mean it in a bad way. She's being Honest about how she felt. It cut me so hard. Oh my God, like, I need to sort myself out. So I also started going to the gym. I also shaved my head because my hair was starting to thin and I thought, let me just get rid of it. My dad was going at me to shave my head for so long because he's bored just doing it because you're bored. But I thought I'd try it. I thought I'd try it. And losing my hair, shaving off, coupled with changing the way that my body looked just changed things for me in terms of my confidence because I started getting now more attention from women. And this just carried on for a good few years.

But what that really did for me.

Was to show me that, okay, there.

Is more to me than, you know.

How things were before. I can be an alpha in that sense. So my ego was very much at play from the ages of 19 onwards into my later years, which actually was probably one of the worst things for me because it meant that I felt that any attention that I got from any women was just what I wanted, what I tried to attract most. I couldn't hold down a relationship because I liked attention from other women. I didn't want to commit to anyone.

Even though I like the idea of.

Being in a relationship, I didn't fully commit with my heart.

Yep.

So that was never really going to go anywhere.

And it's only I've been recently where.

I've started to realize that what my ego did to me and trying to shift that. And my last IGTV post goes into bit of detail about.

Having relationships and.

Having arguments in those relationships and shifting away from your ego so that you can fully just embrace that relationship.

Yeah, no, sorry.

Well, it's. I tell you what, it's funny talking about ego because, you know, for a lot of guys, I think you go through phases. I know when I spoke to Wade Briggs on a podcast a couple of weeks ago when he asked me, what does being a man mean to you? And I said, well, I think it depends on what age I was. If you go in 10 year age brackets, maybe that's the same with ego, is that when you're, and I think it's totally understandable when you're young. For most of us, you're probably trying to find your way in the world and maybe prove yourself. And you're always looking for what's, you know, the better car, the better house, the better watch, the better suit, the better girlfriend, relationship, all this stuff. Then one day your ego rightly so takes a battering because you're always going to meet people on, you know, supposedly doing better than you. But you don't see many people talk about it.

No. So masculinity is a big thing for me because my dad was so alpha. I never thought I could live up to that. So I always felt unworthy. I never felt good enough. And, you know, I would because of the insecurities that had. I was obviously overweight, being brown in a very white environment. I didn't really feel like I was at the same level. I had insecurities about that I'm a very hairy man. So I had issues with my insecurity about body hair.

Yeah.

Where I wouldn't wear shorts, I only wore, you know, long trousers or cargo trousers. I never took my top off. Nothing. And it was only recently where people have, you know, been more open about their body hair. And I was and said, it's quite nice or it's normal or don't worry about it. And the more I spent time in the gym and the gym locker rooms and you see everyone's just different shapes and sizes and no one cares.

Yeah.

I used to shave my back, I used to trim my chest hair. I used to do all sorts and you know, just, just really. Because what the society has shown me is that masculine men look like this. They're chiseled, they got great hair, they've got hairless bodies. You know, looking at men's health magazines and that's what I saw.

Yeah.

So it made me feel insecure with my body. I didn't really feel like I was good enough. All of these things came. Came along and so the masculinity was very much a part of being strong, fit, desirable.

Yeah.

And having a particular looking, looking body. I didn't feel like any of. I didn't feel like I had any of that until. And so it took a long time for me to kind of get past the stage of what does masculinity really mean to me? And actually I got to a point where masculine and ego are very much tied together for me. And it's about just surrendering to who we are. You know, the skin, I mean, doesn't define the soul that I have or who I can be and how I can resonate with people and how much love I can receive and give it and all of that. And it's just. Yeah, it took my ego and everything just took a battering for years because it's only in my head.

Yeah.

That's the main thing, which is it was just in my head. And the more I've spoken to men about this, and that's the reason why I started Not Just a Man. Because men go through this on their own. Most of the time they think these things and they see what they see on social media and they just. They go within themselves and try to heal and try to do things and. And trying their best to sign up to a course that helped them get women or quick diets to help them get these, you know, washboard abs. Yeah, it doesn't work. And what I just think many to just understand that they are who they are. You can work on your mental health, everything else will just fall into place.

That's. We should probably write that down. It's a nicely worded little thing that could go on your Instagram. I'll tell you what I think was interesting. There is. It was. It reminded me of one of the E letters I wrote the other day. And I said the most important opinion you can have is of yourself because as you said, you know, your ego is in your head, it's not measurable and it's all down to you. So it depends. You touch on there what the influences that you're growing up around. You could take two examples. One who grew up with a loving father who is still here, which is me. You know, I'm lucky to love my dad, hug him, see him a lot, etc. I love my time. Then I've got friends who didn't have a dad because he either left or he died. And you could see a real difference between from my friends, those ones that were always kind of looking for some kind of male direction in life.

Yeah.

And a lot of them were quite angry.

So I definitely grew up angry. I mean, for me, it wasn't the case that I was an angry person is that I got to an angry place quickly because I didn't speak about what was happening to me or how I felt. So I didn't know how to manage my emotions when dad left home. I'm so close to my dad. He lives local, we still hang out, everything's good. But as I mentioned, like in my kind of synopsis about who I built, who I am, I took this responsibility of man of the house. I didn't know what that meant, but it's very much used, especially my community and my culture, where as an Asian guy, the son takes a very predominant role in the household. But I just felt like a bit of a man child. I was treat. I was. I had expectations of being a Man and a father and a husband. I know it sounds weird, but it was almost like I filled a husband role to my mum.

Yeah.

But I was still treated like a child, so I was like. The expectations put on me of, like, you know, try and contribute to the Waterhouse, like financially or just, you know, do the shopping or when I started driving, it was like, you know, can you take us here? And it was almost like I was obligated to do such things. And it didn't really sit right with me because it just felt like, why is this coming? Why is happening to me? Why can't I live a normal childhood like everyone else and just have everything done for me? Why do I. Why are we struggling like that? Or why do I. But I can now look at it and think, it wasn't really that big a deal. It was just, you know, these were expectations on me because I felt there were expectations because I didn't know how to handle it. So when I. I would have these altercations with my mom or my sister or even my dad because they wanted me to behave a certain way and I wasn't doing it, I would bottle it up inside at the same time trying to manage relationships with women that I was with. And then whenever they became a bit too much for me and the fun bit kind of died down, then I felt the expectation from them as well to be a particular type of boyfriend. And I would just explode arguments or go into what I would call man cave and man cave, which, I don't know, many men might even be able to resonate with. This is when I have to get the hell out of here. I had to go and sometimes I'll book a hotel for two nights and just go and stay because I was living at home, my mum. Because I felt that I had to be at home to kind of support the family. And I didn't leave my family house until only last year. 31 years old.

Wow. Yeah.

I had a tie and obligation to do what I could and I actually also crippled myself financially in the process. So that's a whole different thing we can talk about. I end up from a young age of like, when I moved back home at 18, to I end up spending money, emotional spending, better, getting into debt, credit card debt and all sorts. And I end up getting to a point where I couldn't even leave the house because I couldn't afford it.

Yeah, it's going to cost you money somehow.

It was. It was.

Yeah.

That's one of the things I'll rewind It back there. One of the things about was, you know, interestingly saying, like booking a hotel room just to try and have a bit of space. And space is one of those things I think especially at the moment, to state the obvious, a lot of people have struggled with during this lockdown situation of it doesn't matter how great relationship you've got with people. What a lot of people have missed out on is let's say getting the train to work or going to the gym and, or doing all those things or going and seeing your mates at the pub or even just spending time on your own. And I know Chevy Ruff, who is a guy who was on probably podcast about 20, we're up to like what, 43 now. But he said, you know, the importance of being okay in solitude. And I think it's not just being okay in it. I think it's such a valuable thing just to have a little bit of time on your own.

I think that's, that's valuable. Valuable for people that are not alone already. So for example, when we went into lockdown and I was, I'm living in a house with people here, but yeah, I felt alone.

Yeah.

You know, I broke with my girlfriend. I now have no like one around me. I wasn't going into work, so I didn't need space from anyone. I felt like I needed people around me.

Yeah. So there's the flip, isn't it? You've got the, we said this before on podcast, you've got the guys that, let's say I've got families, what have you that could do with a bit of like a day or two of just checking into a hotel. And you've got the guys that we knew that were living on their own that like, I want to fucking hug.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's one of the reasons again, the reason why I've set up, you know, the not just a man movement and even the sharing circles, because I mean these are all them drop ins because I want men to be able to drop in whenever they want on a weekly basis. But really so they can take a bit of time out for themselves and just vent, just, just talk about some stuff. It can be anything. And then along the way I'll sprinkle in some nuggets of like some mindfulness a little bit about, I don't know, just some breathing techniques or just a way that you can just, just improve your life in little segments or little ways. Really. It's because we don't talk about things. And then when we even if we have got busy lives, family, friend, relationship, all these things going on, it's very rare that we take time out for ourselves. So yeah, the gym, fantastic. But if you don't have these things and then you just. Every day is busy, especially the corporate guys that are full on non stop and now they're at home, they're probably working crazy hours because they start as soon as they wake up, 6am they're on their phones with their emails until late at night. So talking is so important. But yeah, you can get the interaction with your friends even better. But for those guys that are already living alone, a hug is great from time to time, or just someone you can just say, hey, what's going on? Let's go for a drink or something.

Yeah, it's quite a scientific term I'll use, but sometimes just talking load of bollocks is actually really good with your mates. You know, one of the chaps that's been to some of our whole man Academy events and him and his son are both very much into Formula one. I work, work for two of the big Formula one teams but I went around there the other night and we had some drinks and it was, we just talked a lot of nonsense. It was really good. And the next day I was like, I've really missed that, having that, getting out and you know, just talking about stuff and it doesn't matter. We could call it man stuff, but it depends what you're interested in, be it sport or finance or style or whatever. And I wonder why yourself, what was the spark then? I know you said about with your partner, but you've, you know, I've seen your Instagram, so you've got a good body, a great body. So how did you go from. Because, just because you want to change doesn't mean you know how to. So what was the moment? And maybe for guys listening that are thinking, you know what, I'd like to sort my body out and just, you know, hasn't got to be because it looks better, but maybe you feel better or stronger or fitter or healthier. What was the things that you changed so genuinely?

I just started going to the gym every day. I just went every day. I didn't know what I was doing. So I would look at the guys in the gym and I was, I was just copying them, that's how it started.

And then before, you know, a guy.

Came over and started saying, hey, I see you're trying to train. I was going with a friend as well and he was like an ex military guy, he's like 65 years old. Amazing, amazing guy. And he started just giving us tips. And then from there I started doing it more. I started buying magazines and then obviously moved into like Instagram and everything like that. And just following people that inspired me and keeping it together. The one thing that I didn't take care of with my nutrition, so I'd go to the gym and I go to the student union and I'll have a pint and a baked beans and jacket. So that wasn't working for me. So my nutrition on point. But then when the most change happened is when I just thought, you know, what nutrition now.

So I still go to the gym.

And then I started on the protein shake, as it were. But then I would just. I cut out my carbohydrates. Just, just for a little bit.

Just because I was overeating.

I was living on like, you know, McDonald's, Burger King, KFC. I had the worst diet. Again, it was emotional. Eating, you know, these things made me feel better about myself because it's not comfortable eating them. But it wasn't doing me any good.

So it was just going every day.

Having good influence people that I could look at and think, I want to emulate this person. And that just gave me that motivation to do it. Plus, I already had the drive of that woman that just told me that she wasn't really into me, into this other guy.

Yeah.

Powerful.

Yeah, exactly. That's a great motivator. And then it was just about looking at my nutrition, saying, what are the things that aren't serving me? For me, I can put on weight really easily. Takes me a long time to lose it. So if I just count the things like you're not eating too much bread and pasta and potatoes, I still threw it in just a little bit. It meant that I could still eat before and I wasn't overeating.

Yeah.

You know, I just cut out the crap for like a good. And now I don't eat the nose. I don't eat none of that stuff. Fizzy drinks, if I do, it's like incredibly rare. I mostly just drink, you know, water, have some coffee. I've got like electrolytes in my water. I don't really eat lots of crap. I try to eat as clean as possible.

Yeah.

But I'm still. I still have massive sweet tooth. So from time to time I want cake. You know, it's about balance. I just want to be majority. The majority of the time I want to just eat right.

Yeah.

And every now and again you have a bit of a blowout.

It's consistency, you said, you know, it's even going to the gym. Just getting started, you know, for me is one of the big things. The hardest bit, I think, is for people that don't like the gym. I love the gym and sport and I could play football all day long and, you know, I'd get bored doing anything else. But sport was one of my great passions. But it's always hard when guys don't really like the gym, and that's the frustration. If they don't realize that just because they're going to gym, if they're not eating right as well and trying to do the daily things that will make a difference, then you end up going to the gym, not seeing any real difference, and thinking, this is a waste of my time. Then you stop and go back round again. It's an interesting one for you then. So at what point did you, when you said, like, you used to feel overweight and obviously you got rid of your hair, that was kind of slowly disappearing. So it's like, I always love that. Just, just get rid of it. It's a lot sleeker. What point did you feel like? I feel good now.

Even when all of that was happening and my body changed, everything was like, I feel like I still do to some degree have body dysmorphia where I look in the mirror and feel there's something wrong, you know, I don't. It's so difficult. And now my mindset is changing to a degree. I'm looking, trying to look at a self love point of view, like I.

Am who I am.

I'm beautiful, I'm good, I'm healthy, I'm fit, everything's fine. But it takes, it does take, it does take a while. And I think that's something that I think many men can resonate with, is there's always something, you know, that they're not quite happy with. But I gotta say, I'd say within the last two years, I'm far more happy with my body. Even like the whole body hair thing, I'm more open with my body hair now. But that even. That is a recent, I guess, change in my thought process.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it took a long, long, long time for me to be, you know, I'm good. I can take my top off at the beach. I'm good. It's amazing because people look at me and say, dil, you look fine, you look great. What are you worried about? You know? But now that's.

I always say it's a bit like having a bad hair day where you just shave it off. But you know, you can feel like your hair doesn't look right and other people are like, I don't even notice. But again, it comes down to your perception of yourself and how you look. And then you make up that movie in your head of the other people are looking at you and actually they're too busy worrying about what you're thinking about them to even have given you a thought of what you look like.

Exactly. No, what I do believe now is no one cares. Yeah, no one. No one cares. And if they're judging you and you're triggered by that, that's a reflection of what's going on inside you at that.

Moment, you know, and you talked about.

You know, you know, why we do certain things and how do we get motivated.

The one thing that I would say.

To the men out there to work on rather than trying to hit the gym first is just understand that when you do these things, it's for your so and for the betterment of yourself. So think of everything you do as self love that you can think of discipline. And people look at. We'll try to watch videos on YouTube for motivation when I do. And I did that too.

Yeah.

If you just look at the discipline and think, okay, I'm doing this because.

I love myself, it completely changes it. You don't think I have to get up at 5 in the morning to go to the gym. You think, oh my God, I want, I can't wait to get up at this early so I can make myself a better version of myself.

Yeah.

Completely different mindset, you know, why are you eating healthy? Okay, I'm not doing it because I'm trying to go on a fat diet. I'm doing it because I love my body and I want it to be the best machine it can be. Therefore, I'm going to fuel it with the right foods. Yes. I can't eat that cake. It's like, okay, I want to eat this amazing chicken salad that I've created and it's all clean foods because it's going to give me exactly what I need.

You get the knock on effects of that as well. It certainly takes. So I think after working with guys, helping them with fitness and health and you know, their body, which isn't necessarily the same as fitness and their fulfillment and all these different things, each guy has got his own thing that he wants to improve or even just, you know, let's say bring up a level. I remember going to A Tony Robbins conference, like the four day one in London, and I've done the ones in Miami and Tenerife and etc. But I remember sitting down, there was a guy who you had to kind of talk to the people next about what your issues were. And at the time, I remember saying to him, like, I knew he had a great job and his own business, so he had lots of money, had a lovely family, and he was quite overweight. And he said to me, my biggest challenge at the moment is that, you know, I just, I just can't lose weight. And because I know what to do and how it works me, I was like, dude, that's so easy. I mean, you can literally throw some money at it. But for him, he just couldn't fathom how to find it working for him, you know? And you were like, look, he's got everything on paper that the average person might think you need, but he doesn't know what to do about his, you know, his health and his fitness. And there's always something. Which is why with the whole man academy, we're trying to ensure that if it's a guy's sleep or a guy's fitness or his health or his mindset or his relationships or his career, all of these different things, there's always something. So for you at the moment, what would be the one thing that if you could bring up a level in your life, what would it be?

If I could bring up a level in my life? Yeah, that's a really good question. I think for me, it's the dedication to do the things that I don't really want to do right now, but I know it will better me. So just having a good morning routine. I've been obsessed with a good morning routine for the last five years. I look to every YouTube video, I've tried to read the books. I even had to create my own morning routine. And what I've realized is that it just takes time for them to manifest into your life, you know, you put in place. And now I feel like I do have a good morning routine, but then it's still not as consistent as I'd like it to be.

Tell us about your morning routine. Like light on me, right?

So the morning I'm trying to hit the 5am crew, like Wake up at that kind of time, but generally wake up two hours before I need to. That's just how I would say, two.

And a half hours.

Wake up, meditate. So I'm at a place now where I'm meditating for you know, upwards of two, upwards of towards an hour ranges. It's difficult and I get feel uncomfortable, but I'm working towards a part of actually also doing a 12 week men's program. So we're working on little things that can help us and then journaling. So it's meditation, journaling and then, you know, write down what I'm kind of got to do for the rest of the day and then crack on. I'm also intermittent fasting, which means I don't really start eating until you say.

12 o' clock or 1 o' clock.

In the afternoon and finish eating by 7, 8 o' clock in the, in the evening. That keeps me kind of like in check. I'm not overeating throughout the day and it keeps my mind in a good place and I'm not focusing on food all the time. But just that meditation and journaling really just helps set me off for the, for the day. At the moment, I'm not training this week. I'm kind of like in the middle of moving a house. So normally the gym or some activity in the morning would be preferred. I'd rather train in the morning. So meditation, journaling, go gym and then crack on with my day. If I get those three things in, I feel like I'm already one.

That's the word. Yeah, it is that. And those that listen to the podcast or watch on YouTube, doesn't really matter how you consume it. But the point is we talk a lot about the morning routine and sometimes we even flip it to say, you know, what you do the night before in the prep for the next morning, which I'm sure we could talk about. But that's why it's really important. The more guys that I speak to, the more you find that they're all trying generally doing the same things to create that, to improve their chances of having a productive day. And that means probably performing better, thinking better and feeling better. So it was great that you said with the meditation. So where do you, let's say, you know, first thing in the morning, the alarm goes off. Tell us about where you meditate and what I know there's various forms of it. We had Ben Harrison, who I think you know, the yoga, yoga teacher to the armed forces on two weeks ago.

Yeah. Great work by the way.

Thank you. I'd like to say it was all me, but he did most of talking, which is the whole point of the podcast. But how about for yourself? How did you. Did you find it did work, didn't work and you kind of had to find your way in it or was it just. Yeah, I've got this meditation stuff.

Yes.

The first thing I would say as well that I do in the morning is that I don't. My phone is my alarm, but I don't touch anything. I turn my alarm off when I get up. I don't touch my phone until the first few things are done. In terms of looking for anything, no, that's just not done at all. I do use an app called Insight Timer, which is just a timer to help me meditate. It's just. Just so I say it for like half an hour. Then I used to know that I haven't got worried about going over or not doing enough of what I want to do. And I do set a time because I like to level up if I can. So when I first started meditating, I couldn't do. I couldn't sit for five minutes. I just couldn't. I just. It was that boring. I used to procrastinate and not want to do it at all. But then really, it just had to come down to just sitting there and focusing on my breath. That was it. Thoughts come and go. I don't. It's like, don't. You know, I try to overthink not thinking, but now what I do is if I have got a half a thought, I look at it and I think, okay, that's an interesting thought. And then come back to my breath. And now the meditation that I do is to. When I'm breathing in and breathing out to focus on a single point in my. Just under my nose just a little bit. I think it's called the fulcrum, or I don't know what is. But just trying to bring awareness to a single point on my body just helps. Kind of put me in a state of Zen. And it's not always the same. Sometimes I have visions, Sometimes there are colors that come into my mind as I'm meditating. But generally it's just kind of give me that time in the morning before anything else stops to just sit there and be peaceful. So all I would say to anyone listening, if they're looking to get into meditation, try some apps, Headspace and Insight Timer, two fantastic apps you probably heard already. But don't be afraid to sit there for five minutes a day. Don't be worried about your thoughts. Just go back to your breathing in and out. Sit there in a comfortable position. I tend to find a nice place. I sit against the wall because it can get uncomfortable sitting there, you know, So I Think I don't want anything to distract me from the meditation itself. Don't be afraid to sit against the wall. Sit on a cushion somewhere where it's not too cluttered all around you, a nice peaceful space that you won't be disturbed and you're good to go. Just.

There's two good things there. One is, and you make a good point about, you know, trying to sit up. Because I must admit, when I started doing, you know, I've had various forms of morning routine. And that also is depends on whether you've got little kids who are, you know, who need to be woken up immediately. So your morning routine goes out the window because you're having to deal with that or you're getting up. You know, I used to get a trainer pretty much six o' clock every morning. So, yeah, you. If that unless you were getting up at half past four, plus you might have been out the night before. So that would go out the window. But it's about trying to be consistent and not going, you know what, it's gone wrong today. Oh, well, I'll just leave it. It's like, okay, let's reset. But I don't know if you've ever had it. Firstly, I did have it before where especially now that it's getting dark in the mornings. Some mornings you'd wake up and you'd start your meditation. But I used to make the mistake of I'd lay on the floor with my head on a pillow and then I'd wake up 20 minutes later. Like, how past cheese. And you think, shit, I've just, I've just used all my meditation time just to have another nap. So I wondered if you had any instances like that.

100%. So I used to just this challenge of, you know, trying to meditate morning and evening. And that's what again, what I'm doing as part of this program. And I thought evening ones, I'm like, okay, well let me just lie down then, because I'm probably going to go to sleep anyway. But you just end up doing, not doing it at all. You will fall asleep and I will, I will definitely fall asleep when I meditate lying down. So I just have to get up, get up and out. And they do this whole, you know, there's one of those things I saw on a pod, on a podcast, on a YouTube video.

Yeah.

You're in bed in the morning, count to five and get up. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Once you've done that, you just stand up. If you lay there and start thinking to you. Your brain will tell you it's comfortable, it's warm, chill out, you don't need to meditate sitting up. You can, you can lie down. It's fine. You'll be okay. Nope, that's a mistake. Another thing I want to touch on is you made a point of productivity and, you know, things in around that. We are in a world where if we're not productive, it seems a bad thing. But I think we need to try and readjust how we reframe how we think about productivity. Because sometimes just taking that time in the morning, maybe you didn't do it and it's okay. It's being a bit kinder to ourself and feeling like it's okay because sometimes your body just doesn't want to go to the gym. Like, it's just saying, you just rest, just rest. We don't listen to ourselves and we might get ill, we might pull a muscle, something might happen. And we have a lot of internal guilt about things. And that's also an outward kind of projection as to what is the world going to think if we don't do certain things. We also want to have something to say that we've done to someone that asks, what have you done this morning? Oh, I've done this, this, this, this, and this. If you just said, oh, I just woke up, I had a coffee and I started the day, you know, I think being kinder to ourself in that aspect as well, it's not always going to be that way. And it's okay.

It makes me laugh because, I mean, we. We hear this so many times from guys, especially now that a lot of them are working from home, is that you kind of feel like. And I know I had it when I'd left my job in the city and I was working on like a website for something, a different business I was going to start. But then we moved away from the countryside to the countryside, so there was no point. But I'd walk Emma to the station at like 5 to 6 in the morning because she was still working in the city. And I'd walk back and it'd be weird because I'd be in like tracksuit bottoms and a jacket. It'd be the winter, but you'd have all the. The commuters from the commuter belt that I lived in walking the other way with their, you know, I say briefcase. No one had a briefcase those days, but. And I'd get in, and sometimes you'd be like, I don't know what to do because I've got stuff to do, but no one's, you know, watching me to say, why aren't you at your desk? But some days your motivation was high and you were productive and you got stuff done. You could say you were on fire, whatever you want to call it. Other days you just couldn't be bothered. And Emma would come in the door maybe at 6 o', clock, and as soon as you walked in, I'd feel I needed to report what I'd done that day and something I'd make up or you'd embellish because you, oh, yeah, I did this, this and I did that and that. And you're thinking, actually I sat for two hours on the sofa watching, watching telly. But I would be embarrassed to admit that even though. That you didn't have anybody else, you know, cracking the whip. So I think that's an important one for guys to be like, you know what? Sometimes it is good to just ease up on yourself a bit. It can't always be. I mean, no one gets their morning routine right every day. If you're getting it right a few days a week, that's a win. You wrote about helping men overcome the everyday stresses. And I just wondered, firstly for you, what would you say are some of your everyday stresses? And then for the guys in general that are listening.

Yeah. So definitely it started off with just the experts expectation, first of all, from the, from families and relationships and friends. And I always felt like I had to go above and beyond for my friends and family, even though it didn't always manifest that way. But I had that feeling. So I put that own stress on myself. That's one work stresses. So just trying to be. Just to do good at what I'm doing within my job. And before that I was traveling a lot with my last job. So it was always travel and getting the right train, not missing it, delivering what I had to deliver in those meetings. So work stresses relationships. I mean, managing a relationship is difficult.

Yeah.

What you got to put in and, and there's so many things that I've learned over the years and that is probably up there. Managing a relationship is probably one of the hardest things. I don't have family and kids right now, so I'm kind of grateful that I haven't out there that does. I applaud you and. Yeah. And just managing like it's a big one. But who am I? What is my purpose?

Where am I going?

These things can make me think, what the hell am I doing with my life? You know? And that can put a lot, these kind of existential feel that you have, have played a lot into, into my life.

Yeah.

But the, I'd say the main way that I've kind of got through this is one to speak to other men just about what they're doing and how they're feeling. And I've joined a couple of men circles where we just, we just talk things out and we talk about things that have gone in our past and why we behave. Certain ways to kind of take more time for myself in the form of meditation and make sure I've got a good routine and three, actually doing a little bit of work on my, guess my past, looking into my relationship with my dad and, and my, how I dealt with certain things with emotional eating, emotional spending, why that happened and then just putting just new methods in place to just help me overcome them, you know, about myself rather than exploding with, with anger or running away. I didn't, I like to say that I haven't done that in a very, very long time. But I just, I feel that that's what we need more as men is to just talk it out. Because the everyday stress, you know, especially those working in the corporate world, it's so fast paced. Everything, whether you're working in banking or what does it matter what you're working? If you're working in an office and you work for organization and you've got that kind of environment, these stresses will creep up on you and you don't even realize it. You're packing in so much into your day that there was no time. Before you know it, it's like oh, six months, eight months, a year, two years, five years have gone. What just happened? Yeah, you don't take the time and these, they build up and before you know it you've got people that are, you know, make thinking stupid things about their lives that they, you know, taking things into different directions and that's where I want to help.

That's a really good point. And you, you kind of brought it to a head at the end there because that was one of our big things here with the whole man Academy. I might have said before, but we had a guy who made a comment when I first started the whole Mountain Academy, you know, a couple of years ago and our point was about encouraging guys to get together to talk. And he sent a message on Twitter saying basically why do you want to get men to talk? You just turn us into a bunch of women, basically. And I was like, okay, well unfortunately you've missed the point completely. But my point that was, we are firstly saying to guys, you don't have to talk about your issues. If you don't want to, don't bother, that no one's forcing you. But if you're finding that you're in life not having anybody to talk to and that be mates or a mastermind group or a circle of guys you get together with, the pressure for some people can build up on you. And it's a bit scientific word, but quite sneaky because you're like, yeah, I'm fine, I'm fine. But then one day it will get so much that your body will react or you will react in a way that you wouldn't want to. So we're always saying. We're not saying that every day you feel sad, you should call your mates up and let them know because they'll probably be like, mate, shut up. Like, how many days do you want to tell me? But if you're saying, joe, it's really good to have a chat. And even you and I here with the people listening, we'll be like, all right, so he's got things he's dealing with and how can I bring up the levels in my life? That's where the magic happens, that guys listening can actually just improve things day after day.

I can definitely listen to that. So that I don't want to always be someone that's just expressing their feelings, like, all the time. I think it's good that we can.

And I think it shows a level.

Of masculinity that we can be vulnerable enough to stand up and say, look.

Guys, I'm not doing good right now.

Can I just talk to you about it? Or this is why I don't want any advice. I just want to talk. And sometimes you do want advice. Because I don't want to just be someone that has always something bad to say. I like things to be quite practical as well. Right. How can I solve this? And as men, this is what we do.

A very masculine trait is to say, even when our partner is talking to.

Us, we're always thinking of, okay, solution.

Whereas a lot of the time the women and the feminine out there don't.

Necessarily want a solution. Right. But as men, we tend to want a solution. So I welcome that. And I think that for the man that said what he did about, you know, we're going to turn to a bunch of women, he probably needs this more than ever. That's how I look at it and think he could do with the chat. He's probably sending A big hug.

Yeah.

And it might take some time to kind of break him down or at least get him to open up. But he's the kind of target market that I'm looking to work with because.

I feel the men that say, I'm okay and I'm fine are the ones.

That I would say generally aren't, because I was that guy that would always say, I'm fine, and secretly behind doors, I'm binge eating, I'm stressed, can't sleep, or, you know, whatever.

And that's actually sort of the binge eating. It's a always say, like a coping mechanism. And often that is a way of your body saying, you know, something's not quite right here. There's a guy who was on one of our podcasts a long time ago, and he said those kind of issues where you're, you know, you might be overeating or you're doing something like, you know, working out constantly, chronic working out, or, you know, violent tendencies, etc. It's like you're on a motorway and you've gone onto the rumble strips when you're falling asleep and the rumble strips are those things trying to wake you back up to say something's. Something's not right here. I was going to ask you about. I know you said about meditation. I'm very much about how can a guy, when he's taking time for himself, just calm his mind so you're not having all these thoughts running in your head all day. So just wondered if you. When you are meditating, it's very hard. I would say don't try and think of nothing, because as soon as you've thought of nothing, you'll go, oh, I've thought of nothing, and now you're thinking about it. So I wondered for yourself, how do you calm your mind? Not necessarily when you're meditating, but maybe that or just generally.

Yeah.

So a couple of things that I.

Do and I've done is one is just to control my breathing. So even if I'm not, my eyes aren't closed, I'm not sitting down, sit there, and I would control my breath through by controlling the number of seconds that I'm breathing in, holding it out. So, for example, I might do an in breath of 4 seconds, hold it for 5, and release slowly for 8 seconds. It might sound like it's kind of.

A little bit funny, or why would you do that?

But if you just try it for good four or five cycles, it changes. Just your focus, your Zen, your. Your state of Mind completely.

You know, there's so much power in.

The breath and I'm still learning a lot about that. But just that simple one alone really, really does, does help me. And the other one is sometimes I would listen to what's called affirmations. Yeah, so this is someone on Spotify or just someone YouTube where it's just someone repeating things like, you know, I'm worthy, I'm strong, I am powerful, I'm calm. And I might just even Google one that's like a specific topic, like, you know, calm affirmations or whatever. And just having them on for like five minutes with a little bit of music in the background really helps. And the other one is listening to Binaural Beats. I'm not sure, but I find that just having it on in the background even before I go to bed or just in my ear when even I'm doing some work, it completely changes your focus or just all your energy. So I highly, highly recommend Binaural Beats is probably one of the top ones for me. I think that really, really does help.

The good thing there is there's lots of options for guys out there, isn't there? And I'm sure one of the things I'm always trying to explain to people if you're doing coaching with them and. Or you're just having a chat to people, is, you know, just because something works for one of their friends, it doesn't mean it's going to work for them. It's a bit like when people say they want to lose weight and they're like, oh, well, Bob up the road did the, you know, cabbage soup diet, and you're like, okay, but he, you know, has got a different body to you and different ancestry and different this and different lifestyle. But that's the thing you've got. You listed some really good points there that can help you just calm your mind. Because I think, especially at the moment, so many, and I find it myself sometimes if you're trying to work from home and maybe you've got kids or you're trying to do all these different things, and especially in the world in the last six months where a lot of people, their normal routine has been ripped up and quite frankly thrown out the window, is being able to find that time where you just, in this five, ten minutes of a day, is being able to calm your mind. So the binaural boots, you know, even when you're going to sleep, is one of those I was listening to affirmations again. You find it on Spotify and you Know just letting self drift off to sleep. It's powerful stuff. So what's next for you? I was going to ask you how with the group of guys that you've been doing a kind of 12 week thing with, what the benefits been of that for you.

So one just being able to connect with other men that are on a similar journey where they want to level up. So it's an all aspect. These are like entrepreneurs, they're the guys that work in the corporate, they've got families, they're single, there's all makes us 33 of us and we're going through 12 weeks and every week there's a new module. So it's looking at things like your vision, the future, the things that have limited you in the past, you know, your relationship with every family or business, whatever it is. We're looking at things like meditation, semen retention. So there's another topic that's come up about maintaining, keeping the energy within you and not just looking for quick gratification. And that flows into many things, even impulse buying and shopping. And what it's given me is that it's the framework for discipline. So one of the things that I genuinely, I feel very strongly about now is what's called a blueprint. When you think of a building before it's a building, it's a blueprint and we are a building to become a higher level or a better version or a more efficient version of who we are. Creating a blueprint will help us along that path to get there. So if you map it out, you know, where have I come from? How do I kind of deal with these things here? Where do I want to be, how do I get there? You can look at it, create a little plan, be like cool, I've got something to work with.

Yeah.

And that's what I feel like I'm doing and what I'm working on. And I want to be able to work with men that for myself and for not just a man to do the same thing too. But this has been a great platform and just a great way of looking at things.

I think one thing that we can.

Encourage more men to do is stop looking outward for a little while and look at what everyone else is doing. Look within, check in with your body. Like you said, there are things that are happening to us that we just don't even take stock of. Okay, I'm getting a slight pain in my shoulder or I feel like I haven't got the energy right now. We just think of it as normal. But if we just take, stop, take a little check in with ourselves, write some things down. You know, how are you feeling even working with a coach like yourself or anyone out there? And to see that might just give you a little bit of help and guidance so you can create that and then you can run with it. Don't be ashamed to ask for help as well. You know, that's one of the main standards. It's okay to ask for help if you're not sure and if you're thinking about, oh, I can't afford a coach and these kind of things. Think about how much money you waste on things that aren't doing you any good whatsoever. There is so much that can be gained from a coach and give you an accountability partner as well. Someone say, do this every day. And that's the other thing I get with these men, is that we have to do these things, you know, because they're going to check in with each other, they're going to ask you, have you done this? Have you done that? And if you say no, you don't want to say no. Yeah, it's really, it's really helping me in that sense.

That's the important bit. I mean, it comes from all levels of. Even when people have personal trainers, it's the accountability, you know, of having skin in the game, saying, I'm going to be there at that time and if I'm not, it's going to have cost me money. Now, I know that applying money to it doesn't always mean that people are going to follow through with things, but I was just this morning I was talking to a guy who works at one of the really big companies who I won't name, but hopefully we're going to kind of do something with them in a couple of weeks time. And he's a really lovely guy. When you speak to someone for like 50 minutes and it feels like it was 10 minutes because what he says resonates with you. But we said then people often don't value what they don't pay for. So if I gave you a free T shirt, you might get pissed tonight and leave it on the tube. But if you pay like 150 quid for your T shirt, you'll probably carry on a hanger and say, can you move out the way and take care of it? But that's the thing is the accountability for guys. It doesn't matter if you're at the gym or trying to level up in life, having someone else to always say, like having a bird's eye view as well, because you're to state the obvious. You're in your life and you can only see it through your eyes. But if someone else can kind of stand back and look at everything that's going on and ask you some questions, and people like, yeah, just, you know, looking it from a different perspective is quite powerful.

Exactly.

And I've started a new job and I can go into this new job and look at the processes that are in place and think, why is it like this? And they can't see it.

They're like, oh, but this is how it's always done.

Everything's great. And I'm like, no, it's not the same thing with our real life, right?

Someone comes in and can say, I.

Can see some negative patterns here that aren't disturbing you at all.

And there's a guy.

What do you mean? I've been doing this all my life. I'm good. So. Exactly. You're exactly right. Someone coming in from the outside is.

I love that. It's like, but this is how we've always done it. And you're like, well, I'm not. I'm not too sure about that. And I was thinking, also, it's. It's like, for all of us, even if it's working really well, sometimes it's good to have switch things up or just try something different because maybe it'll make it even better. I think a lot of people, we always think that what we're doing is the best way. And I've been guilty of that in the past myself, where someone's like, you know, or you, here's the thing. Sometimes you ask for advice, but you don't want the answer they give you.

Yeah.

And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm not doing that. I'll stick with how I'm going.

So I understand.

I gotta say, as a pet peeve of mine, when you can see someone needs help, or they even ask you for help, and you give them some advice, at least a different way of thinking, and they completely dismiss it, and then they come back to you with the same scenario again, or very similar. You think, mate, I told you already, at least try what I've said.

You know, it's like a looping situation where, yeah, you'll be like, what's your advice? This. No, thanks, I'll come back a week later. What's your advice? And you go round and round. Well, there's a question for you. So let's say we always ask if you're talking to a Guy. Now you could give him like one or two bits of advice on how to do life better from your experience. What would a couple of the things, and I haven't got to be kind of earth shattering moments, but just simple.

Things for yourself, I would say look at the things that you're not happy with right now. Ask yourself, are these things that I have control over? If you don't have control over, then don't worry about them. If you do, what can you do to fix them? And try and find someone that's doing something in a way which is better or you can see that they're successful in that area and just have a chat, have a chat with them and see and explain to them how you, what kind of levels that you want to move towards and that you feel inspired by them and reach out even if you don't know them. You see them on Instagram or social media and reach out, ask just, you know, look at the areas that you feel aren't working for you and find someone that's doing it in a way that you could at least emulate or think or be inspired by.

That's a really good point, I think. Never has it been easier to connect with people that you might feel are. I don't mean above you, but maybe they're doing better than you in your. So I think that's a fair thing to say. A great example of that. Hopefully he's going to be on the podcast in a couple of weeks, but there's a guy who, I heard him on a podcast, I mean literally five years ago and he blew my mind. And I've been kind of on and off following him ever since. You know, I'd written to him and we very mildly conversed, as it were. But this week I was like, you know what I'm going to say, would you mind being on the podcast? We'd love to have you. And he was like, yeah, look, I'm away at the moment but I'll be back in a couple of weeks. Like give a shout to this person and they will hook you up. And I was like, if you don't ask, you don't get. And also what's the worst that can happen?

Exactly. And even us connecting like this literally happened overnight. Here we are today making a podcast. I'm ever grateful. Been following you for a while. So I want to connect more with people that are like minded and doing these kind of things, you know, so.

Yeah, yeah, so that's even on Instagram.

I found a guy that's Doing like.

Stocks and shares, kind of seminars and.

These kind of things. We've connected. He lives in South East London too. And we've got a couple of calls set up, you know, for this week and next week. The world is so much smaller now.

You never know exactly. Instagram's a good example of that. And it's funny, I wonder, let's say someone pressed a button and they shut Instagram down. I wouldn't care if they shut Facebook down. And I couldn't give a monkeys if they shut Twitter down. But actually Instagram I like because I find that's. I mean, we were saying probably 90% of the guys who, you know, are part of the whole Mountain Academy group are on Instagram. So that's where our kind of main platform is. But that's a great example. There was a. He hasn't been on yet, but I read a post from a doctor out in Australia. I think a guy, he's probably in his, in his 30s, sound like a guy with good energy. And I was like, hey, this guy sounds cool. I'm going to message him. And he replied back. And I was like, love to have you on the podcast talking about men's health. And he's like, okay, cool. And as you say, it was like five minutes ago, this guy's, you know, halfway across the world or literally on the other side of the world. A few messages and you're like, hey, dude, and let's chat. So it is priceless for you. How does social media, what's the word I'm looking for here? How does it interact with your life? Like, is it that you're on it all the time or do you give yourself a break?

So the history of my social media was that it was ego fueled. Right. It was about showing off what I was doing, who I was with my body or just about the gym. It's all that kind of stuff. Now I find that it's moving into a place of. I'm using it to promote not just a man to connect with men that might want to be interested to getting them to join my circle, sharing things around topics of mental health. I am on it quite often, but tend to be because I'm trying to focus on connecting with people like yourself. I'm using it more as a tool to connect and to share thoughts, feelings, visions and just encourage the conversation. So really I use it now as a business tool, but also as a mental health tool for other people.

Yeah.

So yeah, it's definitely a different way of using it.

I was just going to say, that's the. That's the important bit. As opposed to, you know, there's a saying, create, don't consume. So I'm not saying that I don't find myself scrolling on Instagram, but, like, with the whole Man Academy, we even took, I would say, break from it, because the focus had to be on setting up, like, as we're setting up a mastermind, which will launch in the next couple of weeks, which really is to encourage a select few guys to basically take real stock of their life. And also, you don't want a guy to die with any regrets. That would be one of the most painful things. If at whatever stage of life it is, you're like, oh, man, I could have done this. I should have done this, ought to have done that. And that's the important thing. So, yeah, for me, it was like, you know what I'm focusing on? The priority is that. Not on just doing a post every day because you get an extra follower or something. And we've got to stage now, where we've never said, you want, like, hundreds of thousand followers. Having, like one and a half thousand followers on there means that a lot of the guys I actually know, as opposed to once. There's a tipping point where it's just. It's like being in a concert and you're on a stage and there's 50,000 people. But if you're on a concert and there's 50 people, you can actually get to know them and it's more personal. So that's why when I saw your Instagram post, I was like, this is a man I want to talk to.

Yeah. So I'm at the beginning of that stage where I don't actually have many men that are engaging with me as much as I would like. And I think this is something that I'm trying to push more. Hey, come on, guys. Come and have a chat. Drop in at the circle, visit the website or just something and just. Let's just get the conversation going so that we can get to that point where there is a good community of men that are just leveling up in that sense and just, oh, but my main. My main vision is to bring men peace, because that's what we don't have at a lot of time is we just. We don't. We're not at peace with ourselves, we're not at peace in our lives, and we don't challenge ourselves to take us to that level of peace. And before you know it, you're 65 years old looking to retire and you just wasted your life and you just. You don't actually have any more peace. And you get to that point. And everyone that's older that I speak to, like grandparents or just, just old people in general, they will tell me things like, you know, don't take life for granted, like, take those risks, say yes to more things. You know, don't worry about your job. Like, all of these, it doesn't matter. And I just think that if we can bring men peace now and get into the point of happiness now so they can still do all the things they're doing and then live life into a good place, that's the win. Yeah, that's the win.

That is a win. And I think. Do you think it's. My story always is that both my granddad and grandpa, so mum's dad and my dad's dad both worked very hard, you know, served in the war. One of them worked in banking, the other one in transport for, like 35 years. And you work, work, work, work, work to retire. And they both had heart attacks and died, you know, not, not long after they'd retired. You're like, there's the fucking kicker that I wish they were live. Or I had a chance to speak to them just to say, what are the things you've learned in life? Or what would you like to have done? Because, yeah, none of us. I know there's a saying, you know, the most painful thing is getting to the end of your life and meeting the man you could have become. And, you know, because you don't ever want to get to that stage where. I'm not saying there's that saying, live every day like it's your last. Well, unfortunately, sometimes you have to take recycling out and. And do, you know, do life things. So it can't always be.

Yeah.

And you can't spunkle your money on stuff when you've actually got to pay things. But ultimately I always think, now I want to get to the end of at least each, especially each year, and look back and be like, what were the experiences? They're not about what car I drove or what exactly. What were the experiences I had that I can remember? And that's one of the big things, connecting with someone like yourself. It reminds you that we're all trying to work towards our own peace, as it were, whatever that means. So what is your. If someone said, you know, closing your eyes, you've kind of found peace with where you are in life, what does that look like to you?

Cool.

So I just got Me on to that. So I want to retire by the time I'm 40, what, eight years?

Yes.

I'm 32 now, and retirement doesn't mean I never work. What it means is I have the freedom financially. I don't see myself, and I don't want to be ridiculously stinking rich, but I want to be in a place where I am not relying on a.

Job to bring you to bring me income.

I'm able to get up and lift and go wherever I want. And I've got a family with me, and we're able to just do the things that we would like to do, whether it's traveling, whether it's just, you know, set up a workshop, whether it's doing men's work, whether it's retreats, anything like that. But every day I'm living a life of purpose.

Yeah.

My purpose is to give back to men and bring them peace. That's. I know that's my purpose. If I'm doing that every day. And I'm comfortable and I'm good. I have a loving family and I can, you know, travel the world and I can spend time with my loved ones without worrying about, I guess, having to do a job or any restrictions, limitations in life. I'm happy, I'm good, you know, and I'm working with a whole bunch of men who are all around the world and just. And helping them bring peace and then pay it forward for them as well. Then I'm happy.

That's priceless.

Yeah, it's a very. I don't feel like my vision for the future is crazy big. I don't care about yachts and fast cars and I wouldn't mind driving a fast car. But it doesn't bring me. It's not going to bring me ultimate happiness because I know that it's, you know, I think what we already want when we say we want to be rich, it's because we want freedom to what we want.

Yeah.

If there was one. If there was one takeaway that you had to sum up when I went to one of the big personal development conferences, and again, it was 10 days in Miami, very quite early mornings and very late night. Some nights you got into bed at 3 in the morning, were back up at 6 or 7 to go back. But ultimately it came down to you want freedom. And it sounds ridiculous, but we all stood up when we're chanting it as if it was like, was it Mel Gibson in Braveheart? Freedom to each man is different, and I'm very much on the same Line as you. I used to think that kind of doing well in life meant that you had loads of money and all these things that, the trappings. And then I had a family and now I, you know, I've got a job where if I'd have still worked in the city, I wouldn't have seen my boys, you know, I'd have gone to work at 6 in the morning, I'd have got home at 6 at night. Some nights not come home till late. Now I most mornings either have breakfast or lunch or dinner or all of them because you work for yourself. And it's funny, years ago I'd have been like, that's not enough. But now they're the things that I've got friends that work in the city that I had a conversation with the guy and he's like, so what do you do with this and that? And I said, well it means I can also take my little one to nursery every day and I need to. And he's like, I. So I've never done that, you know, and he earns a huge amount of money, but has he got freedom? No.

Exactly.

So you're, you're bang on with that.

Yeah. I mean, you know, again, when you grow up, especially in the uk, especially in London and because my parents are first generation, they wanted me to do that, that linear journey of, you know, school, college, university, job, marriage, house, all that kind of stuff. And you do fall into that trap. And I just realized that all I'm doing now is what I was doing is just keep that will moving. I'm just, I'm a tax machine for the uk. That's all I've realized that I am like when I see my, when I used to see my salary and I see how much it's taken to given away, I'm like, what the hell, I can't do this. So I'm looking at, you know, other income streams, ways of bringing in income for myself, working on my own business. I want to get into, you know, building up. It's not just a man continue with the coaching that I'm doing. I deal with a personal trainer as well. I've always been looking at other ways I can, I can do all this. And a message I would give to everyone out there is why are you working? Why are you working your ass to the bone? Like what is it you're actually trying to gain in? Like you said, we trying to gain freedom. Why are you working the way that you're working? Is it worth just, just, just take a little look, just take a little stop of where you're at and just ask am I happy? Am I, do I feel like I'm at peace. And then if you want to give us a chat, come get, come say hi and let's have a conversation.

Yeah, no, that's good. And that, that one of the things I know from let's say the average professional guy who maybe is working in a, you know, in, in a company which, what I did for 20 years was that you, you, you're working for someone else. But ultimately you say like what do you want? And a lot of them want to have that ability to go and do something themselves. But I always say, look, it doesn't mean you should like, you know, leave your job tomorrow but have a, at least have a think about it and have a plan in place. Even if it's a five year plan that you're like, you know what? I'm going to start learning about different investments and, or saving more money than I'm spending and doing those things so that in five years time I can be in a strong position to make my own choices.

Yeah, I've seen many stories where someone had a dream where they wanted to have their own business. Obviously you couldn't do it straight away. They say, oh, make sure that your side business is earning double than your current life, your job, wherever it's going to be. But if you just, if you just consistent for a couple of years and do it like you said, you can.

Get there and you will get there.

If you don't start, you won't get there. Yeah, and the thing that used to drive me is I should think again, existential. Why was I born?

I was not born to work and die. It doesn't make any sense. If you look at just the bigger picture, why are we even here? You know, you know, just live a life of purpose.

Just be happy.

Don't worry about trying to get Microsoft some more money or a new client. It doesn't make any difference. Do what you got to do. Think of your job as a means to an end. You save up as much as you can so you can do what you actually want to do. If you need to learn a new skill, you can learn it from anywhere. Now you can free on YouTube, you can pay for a course. Invest in yourself. I would say invest in the things that you want to do because life is, they say life is too short, but it really is, you know, there's no point. We only get one of these.

Yeah, nice. They're all good. Little nuggets. And the last thing about that is get around the people that can help you, you know, and inspire you. Because I know enough guys now that are like, you know, they were, they were working for a company, but the people around them were quite happy to just be. And there's nothing wrong with just working for a company for rest of your life if that's we're happy with. But you're like, look, if you want more than that, you need to get out there and hang with some entrepreneurs or guys that are going to help you take that step, man. There's a lot we could talk about. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to wrap things up and let you go. I already hear my stomach rumbling as well, which means it's time, time to have lunch. But what I do is the podcast going to come out, but I'll put all the on the show notes where people can get in touch with you. And also we've got our next Wholeman Academy Zoom call is on 16th September, which is a Wednesday evening, so if you're available.

What time?

Half past six?

I should be free. I've got my one other call before that, five and six, my men's program.

But I'm free, so see if you're available. And in the meantime, I appreciate you taking your time out of your workday to. To speak to myself and the guys that listen to the whole Man Academy and I encourage them to hit you up on Instagram and hopefully we'll see you at one of our events soon.

Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much for the time. If anyone does want to reach out to me, check out the website, not justdemand.co.uk and just drop me a line.

Perfect. Lovely. Right, mate, well, I appreciate your time and I will speak to you soon.

Thank you, man. Take care. Cheers.