EP055 - The 1% Guy - Andy Cohen-Wray
Podcast interview (early Jan 2021) on the Whole Man Academy show with host Anthony Astbury and guest Andy Cohen-Wray (aka the “1% guy”). Andy describes his background in policing, severe mental-health/neurological trauma (dissociative amnesia, partial memory loss, PTSD), recovery, transition into mental-performance coaching (Athlete in Mind / 1404 Performance), and his work with athletes and motorsport professionals including Formula One drivers. The conversation also covers remote working during the pandemic, maintaining fitness and routines in lockdown, team culture and communication in high-performance environments, and practical coaching approaches (simplicity, sensory preferences, pre-race preparation).
So this is the Whole Man Academy podcast. This is the first podcast of 2021. And what a great state we're all in at the start of the year. Let's not get into that. I don't know what tier we'll be in by the time I record this and it actually goes out, so probably being like Tier 7 or something where you're not allowed to blink or breathe or anything. But today we have Andy Cohen. Ray on the podcast. Andy, man, what a story. I mentioned earlier to one of the chaps, I just recorded something with that you were on, and he was in the crowd when you spoke at the Whole Man Academy event all those many, many, many, many months ago. And he was like, fucking hell, that guy's got a great story. I was like, yeah, I know. So I'll just give the guys a brief intro. In the world of high performance, Andy's affectionately known as the 1% guy. He understands the importance of mental performance and how this fits with the often complex Jigsaw. Love to get into that. He's 1/2 of 1404 performance. They offer programs designed to help businesses and the personnel within them create and maintain a high performance culture, which we love. Andy, welcome to the Whole Man Academy podcast. How are you and where are you, sir?
Yeah, hi. Thanks for having me along and hello, everybody. I'm. I'm. I'm in a room in Watford. Living the dream, living it up. Yeah, Living my best, my best life at the moment. Yeah, I'm just at home in Watford.
So that's that. You're in your own house. Because I know a lot of people have been trying to, when they're recording podcast, trying to escape to the shed or the garage or something to have a bit of peace and quiet. So how's it for you?
Yeah, it's been okay. It is what it is, isn't it? I think we're getting used to dogs walking in and children walking in and all that kind of stuff. So that's the new normal, which is fine, but it's okay. Just get people doing their homework, get them to be quiet, bribe them with chocolate and things like that, and it's all good. But it kind of is what it is. I've given up apologizing about my dog barking halfway through things, so I'll apologize now for the dog barking, but it's all good.
That's a good point. As you and I know, you can, you know, God knows how many either zoom calls or, you know, I've spoken with different companies all this Year and you kind of have to say, look, none of us are in a studio. So if the doorbell rings and. Or the dog barks, we haven't got a dog, but we've got chickens. Or you hear noise, you're like, you just got to get on with it, you know, you can't. Can't worry about it.
Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? And I think it's one of the biggest learnings I picked up, I think was probably on about one of my. After, like the first few weeks of the first lockdown was hearing somebody talking to another person in a meeting and I kind of had to remind them that you're kind of. You're in my house. So just be a bit mindful of, you know, how you do talk to each other and how we, you know, how we behave. Because you wouldn't come. I wouldn't come around to your house now and start, you know, if sort of shouting or being rude or derogatory. So it's kind of. Let's just remember that we are in each other's houses and we should be a bit mindful of that, really. But I was just hearing a boss and a, you know, a colleague having a conversation.
You're like, it's strange because I spoke for or to some of the staff at one of the. One of the biggest companies in the world the other day and There was about 60 people on the call. So it was weird for me because just before we got started, I kind of scanned all the videos and you're looking at probably about 45 of them were sitting in their bedroom.
Right.
And what I mean is, it's just funny that it's your private space. And for me you could see some people had like beautiful, you know, bedrooms that all looked very neat and tidy and other people hadn't even made their bed and their dog was on it and what have you. And I was like, it's such a weird situation that never at any point would you be shown into someone's bedroom. But we spent an hour talking to them about men's health, looking at tidy up.
It's really odd. It's a really. Just a really weird space, isn't it? It's.
That's why you need virtual backgrounds.
Yeah, absolutely. That's why I've turned my camera around rather than the crap that's sitting on.
Well, let's jump into. It was. It was August 2019 that you spoke at the whole Manningham event. Man, the world's changed a bit since then.
Geez, I had held him.
Yeah, I think mine's receded a bit since then, actually, as well. I've got a few bags under the eyes, but I remember you helped me out there, so I'm always appreciative and grateful of that because we had, you know, you were due to speak with a couple of other guys, but Nick Compton, who is the ex England cricketer, was due to speak first. And then literally, I was just arriving in London on the Friday night and I got a message saying, nick's in hospital, he's hurt his neck. He ain't coming to the aura event. And I was like, you know, I stayed composed. I was like, fuck. And I remember, you know, again, we all know about mindset. You can melt down and panic if you think that's going to help, or you can say, okay, what can we do? And I remember messaging you and saying, would you be able to speak for a bit longer? And you said something like, I can speak all day if you really need me to. And I was like, yeah, thank you. So how did you first hear about the whole man academy?
It was through. Yeah, through some stuff that Danny had done with you guys, wasn't it? My business partner, he'd done some stuff.
And then I met him with David Key on a coaching event.
That's right. Yes. And then we. Then I think we came along to the launch at the. Oh, geezer. I say. I always say it wrong. I get the Hawks bit. It's the first bit. I just.
I used to say Jeeves.
Yeah. So, yeah, then we met there, didn't we? And then. Then it kind of. Yeah, just. Just went from there.
Yeah.
And you've had Danny on the podcast, and here we are, months.
That's it. Yeah, it was. It was episode 24, I think it was, that Danny was on. So that's pretty much about. About 26, 27 episodes ago. So it seems. Seems like a long time since then.
You must be scraping the barrel now, then, if you've got to.
No, you've always been on my list. You've. You've always been probably one of the top ones, to be fair. After when we first started the podcast, I, you know, you sit down and say, right, you know, who are the. Who are the people that you already know or you have a connection to who you think have got, you know, a great story, some golden nuggets, or live the life of adventure? And, you know, I wrote down. I think I had about 45 people on that list. Three different people. And Danny. And you were Certainly on there, we've got a few more to work through and then we're. We're going to get a few guys in from the States and stuff like that as well, to mix things up. But how would you describe at the moment? Because you've got that mixture of kind of coaching guys through. You know, you've done the athletics or the running that you've done yourself and then the motorsport. So where are you with all the coaching at the moment and kind of. How did you even start with that?
Oh, crikey, where. Well, I'll start with where I started, really. That's probably the best place and because Christ knows how I ended up here. Yeah, there's. There's no magic formula. It's just. Stuff just happens and you roll with it and it's all good. But I kind of got in through this as, you know, through kind of catastrophic kind of mental health trauma, I guess. Had a. Had a time in the old Bill, in the police, saw a lot of horrible stuff, dealt with a lot of horrible stuff. Ended up having dissociative amnesia where the kind of. The brain, as a coping mechanism, just forgot everything. So that happened when I was 30 years old. Seems like a lifetime ago, but I know I look a lot older than I probably am, but. Yes.
Does that happen for the guys who, you know, quite likely wouldn't know what that is? How would you explain. Is it something that happens because you have an instant trauma or something, or is it that you wake up the next morning and you've had that kind of complete blank of what's been going on?
Yeah, mine was a build up of trauma. So during my career we kind of worked up and tallied up through pocket notebooks and stuff that I dealt with. We're probably nearly 180 bodies. So a catastrophic. A huge number of bodies all through different. Different ways and means, I guess through things like road traffic accidents, just old people passing away, murders, suicides, potter's bar, rail crash, all kinds of. All kinds of stuff. And being a typical bloke on a. On a typical kind of. On a stereotypical kind of boys team with fast cars, guns, all that kind of stuff. We didn't. Yeah, all the toys or the big boys toys and we didn't really sort of talk about this stuff or sort of process it properly really. So that just built up and built up and built up for me. Then literally one day I sat at home, had a massive headache on this frontal lobe and I was like, I've got to go, I've Got to go to the hospital. This really, really hurts. It's one of those. I've never had a migraine, but I hear people talk about when the lights are really bright and they really struggle. And kind of had that feeling. I thought, well, I can't drive. So I ran to the hospital because I was doing a lot of as you do, which is kind of bonkers in itself. I was doing a lot of running, a lot of training, and I was sort of running marathons for fun back in the day. So the hospital was nine, ten miles away. So I just made my own way there because my daughter was only six months at the time, and it was sort of about half past nine. At nine, it just didn't seem fair to get everybody out. Yeah, take me to hospital for a headache. But kind of leaving home and saying to my. My wife at the time, I'll message you when I get there and, you know, it'll be okay sort of thing. And then obviously had some kind of breakdown on the way because I arrived at hospital as an unknown man. So I kind of got there and was like, hi, how are you? I've got a headache. And they're like, okay, we just take some details. What's your name? And I'm like, oh, good question.
Ask me an easy one.
Yeah, you feel like a right plunker. And it's just like, wow, okay, date of birth, address. You're like, I've got a clue. You're on drinking, drugs. I'm like, no, I've just been running, I think. From where have you run from? Right. I don't. Don't know. And yeah, so kind of then a man in a white coat comes out, and it kind of escalates from there quite quickly. And it was good couple of hours before my sort of wife at the time was like, where is he? So they ring the hospital and they were like, have you got an Andy? And they were like, nobody here by that name. Yes, but we've got this guy. You're like, oh, here we go. So you can imagine those conversations. And then. Yeah, so. So she turned up. Didn't recognize her. And then it just. It just kind of escalates from there, really. So spent just over six months or six, seven months in the mental health unit there, just while I kind of acclimatized and got used to the world again because I didn't as much as I could function. There was a lot of stuff I didn't remember. So I don't remember any family, any friends. Literally 30 years just white. No idea. So obviously a little bit worried for my safety and things like does he know how to cross the road? Does he know if he, you know, what is hot, what's dangerous, what's, you know, things like this stuff that you take for granted. Yeah, the basics. And it's kind of like you must get treated like a kid for a little while. Yeah. But the other problem I had was. Yeah, it wasn't just a kind of a keen clut. Keen. That's not easy to say, is it? What do you call me? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It's not just a clean cut. It was. And then I carried on as normal. I started rebuilding memory I was living. I had nearly two years with a 24, 48 hour memory. So I always refer to the 50 First Dates movie because it's very much like that, that I would just. Stuff would just come and go. It wasn't like the movie. I'd wake up in the morning and I just forget. What would happen was stuff would just come in and out throughout the day. So if I was having a good day or a good couple of days, it might last a bit longer if I was kind of stressed or anxious. And because all those, you're kind of your senses, you know, your amygdala is just running at 1,000 miles an hour all the time. Because everything's a threat, everything's a worry and you are just fight, flight and freeze 24 7. So when you're kind of operating at that level, it just, it was too much stress or paranoia, worry and all these kinds of things, that stuff would just, sometimes would go a lot quicker. So, you know, I could see you here today, we could do this talk on. I don't know what day it is.
Yeah.
And then I could. Tuesday. Yeah. So if I saw you Thursday and we sat down, even if I walked past you in the street, if I could, I couldn't, I just wouldn't recognize. I wouldn't recall this conversation or anything like that. It's just stuff would just come and go. It was crazy times, hard work.
So how did that affect with. Because were you in the forces still at the time, in the police force at the time or had you left?
Yeah, I was on. I was on sort of sick, sick leave, I guess long term sick leave at the time because the PTSD was really, really strong and really, really struggling. And the kind of the irony of the job at the time was that for every everybody you dealt with, we would get three tokens to go see a Thera or psychiatrist or whatever it was. But when you were racking them up, the numbers. I were. I didn't get the time to spend them.
Yeah.
Because I'd have been. I'd have been off work for sort of two and a half years, just sat in a room talking. It just wasn't happening. You know, the forces were just coming under all that stress and strain of, you know, losing body, losing numbers on the streets. It was a real difficult time because you kind of. You had to be there, but you weren't really. I wasn't really there. I wasn't really performing as well as I should. So kind of put my hand up. I'm struggling. What can we do? So kind of start to get some help and support. But it was a little bit late, really. Damage was done. Really. Damage was done. But.
So how did you then. I'm just trying to think, you know, how do you. Is it just step by step, day by day, that you build back the memory and therefore. Or to create the memories that you're having day to day. But then is everything that was there before completely gone, or do you now remember some of it?
No, I still. I still don't have a clue. So I kind of. I explained to people that I'm now 43 years. 43 years old with sort of 1112 years of memory, really. So the other 30 years is still. Isn't there? It's there. I guess I just can't access it. It's kind of how I look at it. So it's just parked away somewhere. So there's a. You know, there is a plan in place should that all come back. If. If I do suddenly get overwhelmed with 30 years of crap catching up with me, I'm gonna need a lot of help and support. So it's kind of. There's plans in place should that happen, but as far as we're concerned, it's just. Or as far as I'm concerned, it's just. It's kind of. It's properly buried and I just can't access it as a protect, I guess, as a protective coping mechanism, really. It's just. Which makes sense. So. Yeah, so I just. I've only got 11, 12 years. So, you know, which. Which is really helpful because it's empty inside my head. I don't have all the. All the crap that we carry around.
The childhood traumas hanging about.
Exactly. I just don't have it. I can't. I can't access it. And I was just looking through some diaries and stuff. The other day and found some old stuff from work and I just don't remember. It's like logbooks from when I was teaching sailing and kayaking and stuff like that. And I was just like. So I sent him up to my good friend Mike and I was like, here you go, have a look at this. And he was, wow, that's amazing. I remember some of those paddles. I was like, I just thought I'd send them to you because I knew I was working with you at the time.
That was so strange to try and.
Yeah.
To think what that must be like. And I was just wondering then, at what point did you move from there into the. Into the coaching space and feel. How could it. And feel confident enough that you could. As if you need to relearn some of the stuff.
Yeah, exactly. And that's. That's kind of how I've got here, really. So I had. I had my memory problems and stuff. I went off and did some driving because one of the things I could remember to do is how to drive, which is a bit odd.
Yes. Yeah.
It's a bit like cleaning your teeth. You know, you don't. You won't remember being taught how to clean your teeth. You just do it because it's just a habit, it's there. Same as. Same as driving stuff like. So I don't remember passing my driving test yet. I can drive cars really, really fast and it's cool. So kind of. It does for the professionals. Look at it. I had to really fight with my psychiatrist at the time to let me drive because he was like, well, I can't stop you because you have got a driving license, but how do you remember? And I was like, well, I don't. You're the expert, not me.
Yes.
You tell me how I can remember, but I can't remember, kind of. So some of those motor skills are quite, quite clever. I knew if I turned on a light, light would come on, but I don't know how electricity works. I remember being. Talking about stuff like that. So, yes, I ended up doing some driving, ended up at Heathrow airport. And then 2012, I lost my brother to suicide. So he stepped in front of a train. He'd had enough. And the weird bit about, or the hardest bit about that is that I'd only really known him for three years. From 2009 onwards, I'd been remembering things. And so then to lose a brother who you kind of know is your brother, but you're not really that kind of close to, because you. You're quite new in your relationship as such. So that was a proper head mess for me. I really struggled with that and kind of being on the other end of police officers talking to you, you know, about, you know, what's happened and stuff. So kind of that's the stuff I used to do. So it's kind of a very weird situation. Real again, again, a proper head mess. And I was, I was doing some VIP royalty driving time. So I was driving the rich and famous and family members and politicians and everybody around when they arrived at Heathrow, which was cool. And the kind of stress of losing my brother, we were going through a massive change program as well with shifts and stuff like that and with the memory stuff. I became very much a creature of habits. So I would do. And I still do it to this day. I still do the same things. I get up, have my coffee, I do, you know, I go through the same process. And that was all being threatened and that was being, you know, being jeopardized, I guess. And I would see my daughter every other weekend and that was being. Because I was then put onto a shift power. I'd only see her once every three or every four weeks. And my poor brain was just like, just can't, just can't deal with it. And I ended up having what I call an organic stroke. So again, I kind of look at it as another coping mechanism. My brain kind of shot my left side down in the symptoms of a stroke and kind of went, just sit down and sort your shit out, Andy, really. And I couldn't drive at the time, so, you know, you've got the likes of, you know, David Beckham rocking up and I'm coming out like Mr. Grimsdale with my whole left side just limping away. It's not the impression of, you know, a VIP high performing driver. Funny. And obviously the business can sack me because hr. Yeah, you know, just a bit ethical. Then they couldn't sack me because I've had a stroke because of the stress that caused me. So they ended up putting me on a. Put me on a different team. So ended up on a continuous improvement team, process improvement team, where I just learned a load of science I knew nothing about really, which was kind of the cloud where when I do my slides, I have my every cloud as a silver lining. And that was the one really. And because my brain was empty, I just absorbed all this science that they were teaching me in process improvement stuff. Behaviors, psychology, all this kind of stuff. I was just, just give it to me, absorbing everything and then yeah. While I was taking it in and when I was on a particular coaching course, the guy. They knew about my athletics background, they were like. I was like, this is kind of sport psychology type stuff. And they're like, yeah, it is, yeah. I was like, why am I doing it at Heathrow with people pushing trolleys that I don't particularly like, when I could be in a world, in an environment I actually do like and I get an okay in? So that just kind of. I just took the leap just over five years ago now and just went, thank you very much. I'm going to take all that learning, all that science, going to go set myself up in business, called it Athlete in Mind, kind of does exactly what it says on the tin, and just sort of reached out to my athletics world and said, this is what I'm doing now, and kind of the rest is history, really. It's just grown and grown and grown and grown. And there's been a few times where I've been the right place at the right time and some. Some really good stuff happened.
But that's important. You. You know, we know in life that we're going to be throwing challenges left, right and center, especially. Especially in 2020, when, you know, I think most people couldn't be prepared for what was going to be thrown at them. But being able to kind of ride those obstacles and like, you did adapt to. I guess a lot of people could take what happened to you and use it as an excuse not to. Not. Not to function in daily life. But for you to say, do you know what? I'm going to turn my hand to something different, you know, get out my comfort zone and. And actually go into something you're more passionate about. It was probably one of the big. The big kind of master strokes for you.
Yeah, I guess. And there's. And some of that stuff still doesn't work for me, so I don't know. So we talk about some of that fear and some of that comfort zone stuff. I don't really remember what I'm scared of, so I don't know if I. If I kind of should be scared or not, if that makes sense. So there's a bit of. There's a bit of my brain that goes. I know if I go stand on the roof and if I jump off, it's going to hurt. I get that. There's a kind of a sensible bit work. There's a bit of me, especially when I'm racing cars and stuff, it's a bit of me that doesn't know if, if that is too fast because I don't really remember what too fast feels like or what too fast looks like. So we had it recently when I was testing and the guys, they put me in the driver coach and this guy's a phenomenally quick car, a phenomenally quick driver. And I was like, well, if he can break at that point, why can't I break at that point? So I just did what he did and the car stuck and they were like, what, what you do what, what are you doing? I was like, if he's doing it, why can't I? Who says I can't? You know, who's saying that he should break it that point? Can't he break it half an inch later? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so, so they just tell me what to do and I do it. And because I've seen the car go round and it sticks when he does it, I'm like, well, I can do that. And that's it. I just, I don't have that. What if it goes. Well, if it goes wrong? It goes wrong, you crash. But that's. I get that it sounds like the.
New belief of, you know, with Roger Bannister in the four minute mile, that once, you know, once the there that you've seen someone do it, then you're.
Like, it goes and goes and goes. Yeah, yeah. Enough four minutes is really slow.
Yeah.
When they're running three, you know, three, 40 something, it's just, it's a world apart now. It's just he'd have been 100 meters behind now.
I always love those kind of stories that, you know, it is all about belief, isn't it? Because once you've seen someone else do it. So how would that track your, your progress in motorsport to kind of moving up the ranks from, you know, just being a motorsport to then going to the elite and working kind of through Formula one.
You're a fluke. Right place, right time said, yes, it happened. It literally was as crazy as that. I was at an athletics race in Woking, just I was doing a steeplechase race. I came second to a. I call him a little shit. He's a good friend now, but he was a little shit. Cocky little lad. I was doing a steeplechase race. I was the only person, when we were warming up that was hurdling the barriers. So I thought, I've got probably stand a good chance here. The rest, you know, it's quite slow to put your foot on each barrier. So I thought, you know, we've got 15, 18 barriers or whatever it is that's, you know, should be a good few seconds up the road. And anyway, gun went off, I took off and this lad sat in front of me. Then he just ran away from me and he kept putting his foot on the barriers. We were kind of playing sort of cat and mouse. Yeah, I would, like, catch up. Then he'd run away again. Then I catch it. I was like. But, yeah, ended up beating me by. I wasn't far, about six or seven seconds. Anyway, at the time, I had a. I had a van that was branded with all my athletes in mind and mental performance stuff and stuff like this. And I was walking back. I didn't realize it was the same. The same kid at the time. I was walking back to the van and this guy said, oh, you need some of this mental stuff. Your head's a mess. And I was just. Dad talking to his son and I was like, interesting conversation to have, but, yeah, anyway, here's a leaflet, here's a card. I'll sort your out. No problems. So I started working with this young lad. James had really good results with him, he said. And his dad, who turned out to be a coach at Bracknell Athletic Club, said, I've got another lad I'd like you to work at. Started working with this lad. Turned out to be the same little shit that beaten me the other week.
Small world.
Had an interesting conversation where he was like, yeah, I did this race the other day. I turned up, there's nobody pushed me, there's no competition, I just ran away. Cheers. Yeah. I said, do you know who finished second? He was like, no. I said, it's me. You just see the color drain from his face. Young Max, bless him. So, yeah, I got really well with Max. Has some good results both. Both him and James went on to win medals at the English schools. And it turns out Max's dad is one of the directors, or was one of the directors at McLaren Formula One team. So he was like, really impressed with how you work, professionalism, how you do it, why you do it, how you get the results, the feedback, all this kind of stuff that you guys get. And he was like, if. Do you work with racing drivers? And I was like, yeah, yeah. I sort of explain it as human being performance. The sport is irrelevant. I can't drive a Formula one car, but I can make the driver go quicker. I can't. I know nothing about local housing authorities, but I can make the people in that world come together as a team and work better and Things like that. So it's kind of. Once you explain it like that, they were like, okay, cool, well, let's have a go. So I started working with a development driver and things have just gone on from there, really, which is, which is amazing. But it was just one of those right place, right time, said yes, and away we go. It's really good. But the, you know, I do very little different with the kind of, the drivers as to what I do with the athletes, because it's. They're all just human beings at the end of the day. They're just very talented at what they do business, really.
I know. I was going to say it's one of those things, isn't it, that when you get to the high performance and there's such big money involved, you know, it's fine if you're. How can I put it? A youngster trying to get a bit faster on the track, but when you're in the professional sport and not, you know, it's thousandths of a second count as opposed to, you know, minutes and what have you, that's where the 1% or even half a percent comes in, I guess, is, you know, in football, if you, if you hit the ball an inch higher or lower, maybe it does go in the goal and you score the winning goal and the team get three points and win the Champions League. And it's, it's multi million pounds. And with, with motor racing, it literally is fractions of a. Of a second. So I wonder where do you. If you're, if you're working with someone, where do you start? Would you take some time to assess them first or do you just jump straight in?
That's a good question. Just going back to what you're saying there, it's kind of. In the athletics world, they call me the 1% guy, in the formula one guy is the multi million pound guy. Because the difference you make to getting somebody on a podium or, you know, up the front end of points is just.
Yeah, just a point.
Yeah, exactly. Millions and millions and millions. So, yeah, it's kind of. You are known as the multi million pound guy because the difference you can make to ultimately to sponsors and prize money and all those kinds of things is phenomenal. But, you know, I start the same as a do with any athlete. I don't get, you know, I've spent the last few years working with celebrities and VIPs, so I don't kind of. They're kind of normal to me. They're all human beings. They know, they all burp they all fly, they all snort, they're nothing special. And that's kind of how I look at them. I don't kind of. If I've got Brad Pitt walking and I don't go, oh my God, it's Brad Pitt or it's, you know, whoever, it's just. It's another person that's jumping in the back of the car and off. It's the same in the athletics and sport world. They're just another human being is phenomenal at what they do and I respect that massively. But I just look at how they. Same with everybody. You need to understand, I believe, how people tick and operate, how they take in information, how they deal with stuff, how they process stuff. So I always start with that if I can understand how people take in information on a sensory level. Because if somebody is an auditory person and I'm drawing pictures all day, they're not going to see, it's pointless, they're not going to learn and things like that. And, you know, if I'm drawing pictures all day and they're, you know, they're not going to hear it. So it's simple stuff. And with me, I'm. I'm a simple lad. I'm not, you know, I'm nothing special, I'm nothing different. I've just somebody who's gone through a world of crap and has just come out the other side and learned from it, really. And it just keeps moving forward. So I just keep learning, adapting and moving forward and, you know, it's kind of going back to basics with my learning. I find my approach is just really, really simple. And it keeps it simple because then it doesn't, you know, these guys have got enough going on in their world without massively over complicating.
Yeah.
Anything else. You know, they're doing 300 kilometers an hour. They've got engineers talking in each ear, they've got the feel of the car, the sound of the car, other cars around them. It's massively sensory overload. And, you know, it's a lot to take in. And then if you're trying come in with a load of science and stuff, it's just not going to happen. And you can't muck around at 300 km an hour. So, you know, we keep everything really, really simple as much as we can, even down to communicating with drivers. One of the first things I did with a Japanese lad I was working with, he was a Japanese guy driving for a French team. So you've got their kind of what I Call Frenglish and then you've got his janglish. And it was just a real communication mess. So we just went back to, we worked out what the 10 common kind of conversations they were had and then we just put down codes for them. So if we're talking about the car, we would refer to it as a dog. So you go, how's the dog? Or you just say dog. Even if it's barking, it means there's a problem at the front, waggy tail, there's a problem at the back. So you've got understeer, oversteer, all those kinds of things. So we just made it really, really simple because it's just because he's then got a, you know, he's got to hear something and he's got a processor, he's a. Got to translate into Japanese, turn it back into what he thinks the right English word and then try and say it all while he's driving and chucking his car around. It's too much. So we just, we just worked out what their pros. We came up with 10 words. Each dog had a good and a bad. If they needed more information, they could, they could then talk about it. But we found it was enough combining that with the data we had on the screens and stuff like that. So it is just taking it all back to basics because we spend millions of pounds making the car lighter, more aerodynamic, faster grippier, but we forget about the, the blood and bones driving the thing. So, you know, taking that back to basics is, has been kind of the secret to my success in that world.
So one organic thing in the car.
Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's just keeping it all simple really. Just making everybody's life easier. We don't need any more stress at the moment.
No, I don't, I don't think any of us need to complicate things. I was going to ask you because we, we interviewed Jake Alicker months ago, who'd worked with Max Verstappen, never mind as a young up and coming racing driver. And I was, and I was going to ask you, one of the things I said to him was would you, would you speak to someone? Would you feel like you needed to speak to a racing driver, like during the week, if a race is on a Saturday and on a Saturday morning and during the race, or would you kind of think like, you know what, my, my work is done and then you let them race it?
It depends on the human being, doesn't it? Because everybody is individual. So I, I look at it as my job. If you take, you know, if you take Danny as a Paralympic athlete, yeah, there's nobody holding his hand for those two minutes while he's running. Really, the, the work should be done before the, the, the easy bit is the race really. It's the same when you're training for a marathon. You do 16, 18 weeks hard, intense physical training. You do your hard work. The racing should be the easy bit. You know what you're doing. And these guys are so well tuned on the simulators and everything else that they, they know what they've got to do and they'll have a, you know, a kind of a big enough mental toolkit to deal with things as and when they happen. So I don't, I don't believe I should be there chipping in every two minutes because they don't need it. You know, they're big enough and ugly enough to do what they got to do. They're not, they're not babies. We don't need to babysit them. And they're paid a massive amount of money to do their job. So let them go on and do their job and they'll deal with things as and when they come along. Because we've dealt with it already in the simulator. And it's kind of like when people are training for marathons. They talk about, you know, what about those dark miles? And it's like, what about those really tough mental miles? It's like, well, that should be done in training. You should go through all that hard stuff in that 16, 18 week block. You know, you should be able to rock up. We got to do is just put your foot in front of the other for four or five hours or just keep going. Yeah, the hard work's done. You go through that dark stuff and that hard stuff in training because you're there to race, you're there to perform. But yeah, the guys have got, you know, if they need it, I'm there. But it's, I'm not a comfort blanket. I'm not there to hold their hand. They know what they've got to do. Every kind of option variable is, is often worked out in the simulator so they know how to deal with it, how to react and things like that so that the hard work's done before race day. If there is a trauma in FP1, FP2, FP3, we can pick up the phone. We can be anywhere in the world and just pick up the phone or jump on the radio or whatever we need to do. So. But yeah, I Tend to kind of go. But again, that's just my. My opinion. Other. I know other guys working in this world will be there every race weekend. They be there as part of the. The kind of the performance coaches and stuff like that. And it's like, to be fair, I'd rather be home sat watching on the.
Telly, I was gonna say, because you.
See more of it really, than sat in the garage, which is okay, you know, but it's. I'd rather be at home just watching it on telly and having a cup of coffee or with my feet up in the warm.
It's certainly. You can see. I was talking about this the other day, you can see more of a race. And I know you don't get to soak up the atmosphere, but you get to see more of it on the. On tv. But I wondered for you because, you know, have you been. Have you felt the need to travel to, you know, especially, let's say a Formula one scenes. But any motorsport can be quite a long season and it's a lot of traveling around. So have you had to. That had to address that where you don't particularly want to, especially having a family. You don't want to be away all the time?
Yeah, I had. I've had conversations before where I've said, I don't need to go. Go. Yeah, I'm not going. Why? Why? And it's probably the. If it's the wrong attitude, but you kind of get a lot more respect for it. Where I've just, you know, when they said to me, other drivers really struggling, you know, and I'm like, no, I'm a blank point. Refuse to go because I know he's okay. No, like, yeah, but we'll pay you. I'm like, don't care. I don't. I don't. You know, it's fine. I don't. Don't need the money. Not. I don't need. I like the money, but I don't need the money sort of thing. It's like, no, I don't. I don't believe I should just go away from. For four or five days. Normally a week away for a weekend's racing. I don't think it's got to build.
Up when they're qualifying and practice to be there.
It's not. The guys are in a good place. If they need me, they can pick up the phone and it saves them a lot of money. And it's kind of. And the guys are generally. They're okay and they understand that. They respect that they kind of. The kind of. The bosses understand that relationship I have with the drivers and how they work, how they operate. And it's kind of. I don't need to be. If I say I don't need to be there, they'll.
Yeah, that's enough.
Grudgingly enough. So I don't need to be here. And it's. And it all works out. So it's. It's all good. Yeah, you don't need to babysit these guys. Really.
It's a great setup. And I think that's important is, you know, there's a saying I have, like, living life on your own terms is not saying, oh, well, I know it depends on whether you need the money or not, but, you know, if you're able to say, do you know what? Yes, you can pay me and offer me money if you want, but I'm. I'm not going along with that. It comes back to a podcast we recorded back in July with a guy called Andy Murphy who is based out in the States. Now, his podcast is called Mindset by Design. But it's very much about living life on your own terms and being okay with saying no sometimes.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't believe it's. I would kind of. I would see it as kind of obtaining. Obtaining money by deception. I don't need to be there. I don't. You know, I could. Some people probably wouldn't. That, you know, that's fine. They would. Yeah, I need to be there. I need to be there every weekend. You need to be. No, no, I can. They're fine. They really are big enough and ugly enough. I don't really need to hold their hand. So let them get on. Well, let's say their job.
Let's say on day one, if you started working with a, you know, let's say a Formula One driver who's. I know in his 20s. Would you be bought into. Look at his fitness and his health. And I know because, you know, a lot of these guys are going to have a nutritionist and a masseuse and maybe a strength conditioning coach and all these different things. So where would you say? Because I'm guessing with you, you could pretty much tick a lot of those boxes if you really needed to, but where would you. You could pretty much tick a lot of those boxes if you really needed to, but where would you fit into that? Would it purely be their mind or would you be looking at their fitness as well for performance?
Yeah, purely the head stuff. Just the neck. I'm not interested in the down below stuff, what we aim to do is to kind of bring in subject experts for each of those things. Because even though, yes, as a kind of an athletics coach and a running coach and those kinds of things, I do know a lot about how that stuff below the neck works, but I just really want to be there purely to do. To do the head bit. But I kind of overlap a few of those different functions because obviously what they do to their body affects their mind or what they do to their mind affects their body. So I get a lot more visibility over some of the other subject experts than what they would do. A nutritionist would very rarely speak to me unless we notice a problem in mood or something like that. We could relate it to a dietary thing. But other than that, my kind of role is. And certainly stuff we do with the team side of it, it's not just around the driver, it's making sure the other people kind of commute, communicate to him in the right way. So it's kind of. I have to make sure I bring those subject matter experts together at the right time, right place to make sure that guy can drive around in a circle for 400 miles or whatever it is.
You've just touched on one of my next questions, which was about. It's, I guess it's not, you know, if you're working, let's say, with an athlete. I'm not saying they don't have a team around them, but it's a much smaller team than the Formula one, for example, or motor team. You've got the mechanics, the strategy guys, all the different guys. So does that mean you have to try and integrate yourself into the rest of the team as well so they understand where you're coming from and you understand where they're coming from?
Yeah, we do a lot of stuff where we make sure. So talk about how the driver ticks and operate. I know how everybody ticks and operates. You need to make sure I bring the right people together for the right time, for the right place sort of thing. So we do a lot of that stuff with them. So it's no different to doing a. To working in a business or working with a team. You've got to understand how they all. What role they play, accountability, responsibility. We have a massive psychological safety culture. So there's no, there's a. No blame, no blame culture. It's just that kind of. We aim to have that, you know, we talk about winners, a team, lose as a team. It's all this kind of. All this kind of Stuff goes on because it's just we're there to make that guy go faster ultimately. So yeah, we bring, we bring together the right people at the right time, doing the right job to make sure the right guy can drive the car and hopefully win or podium or get points and things like that. But we have to understand how everybody ticks and operates so we can align the right kind of engineer and the right mechanics. So everybody's just on the same, on the same page.
That comes from one of the guys that lives up close to me now works for one of the Formula one teams and we were discussing a bit like with having a performance coach for the driver and then you've got, you know, the guy that's changing the wheel and if he things up then you know, the driver can have been absolutely fully focused and on point and then the guy with the gun, you know, cocks something up and suddenly he's cost him three seconds. And that's the difference between the race. Yeah, I just wondered. It's always interesting that the rest of team have to be mentally focused as well as the drivers.
Yeah, big time. They all, they all kind of switch on and off at very different times. And you've seen that in recent races this season where you've, you know, certainly with George Russell where I read about this in a recent blog where the kind of way he's driving for Mercedes because obviously Lewis is self isolating so he rocks up. There was a radio issue, so a technology issue. It's interesting we're talking about this with a guy from Williams in that we have a, we have a no blame culture. We don't blame another human being but boys does technology, Technology gets the brunt of.
It takes the heat.
Yeah, yeah it does really take the heat. We can blame technology all day long but we forget about the human beings that build the technology so that we kind of have to be a little bit careful there. And he was talking about this on a replied to one of our blogs saying yeah, it's all very well, you know, technology gets a good kick in. So they had a radio issue and they genuinely had kind of no idea who was coming in. So people just grabbed wheels and put them on wrong cars and everything just went to lot. But the drivers are, we've trained for that. We're used to that. We will make mistakes, we will hold them a second or two, we will hold them 5, 6 seconds if they have a 5, 10 second penalty for whatever reason. So they used to sit in there, just sat in the car with stuff happening around them, they just zone out. But it's the kind of. The mechanics and the engineers and stuff, they all kind of come in and off or on and off at different times, and they've only got to perform through for 1.97 seconds, but they. They've got to sit around an hour for that two seconds to happen.
So I was just thinking about the boredom of. Not boredom, but it's a bit like a goalkeeper. You know, you. You might only have one important save to make, but you need to be fully focused. And for those guys with. With the tires, as you say, when they're doing a, you know, a maximum two seconds of running out and on and off, that is the. The moment for them, isn't it?
That's it. Yeah. That's their. That's their Olympic final. That's their. That's their. That's their Champions League goal or whatever it is. It's just. Yeah, they. They. They train, they practice process are in place, and they just rock up and do two seconds in the zone. Sit down. Yeah. Yeah. Literally. Yeah.
Can I ask you then with the. And you just mentioned his name, which had just got out my head, the guy that replaced Lewis, George Russell, what was your thoughts on? Because he was doing extremely well, wasn't he, in the Cup? And then it makes you wonder how good, you know, is it that you could take a lot of the drivers and put them in that car and they would do equally well. It's always an interesting one.
Yeah, it is. I reckon you could put. Probably. I'm gonna put my neck on the line here. I would say probably 18 out of those 20 drivers in that car, and they would all be in the top two, top three, quite easily. I would almost like to say that with a little bit of practice, you could put me in that car and I would do okay.
Ye.
The car is phenomenal, and George showed that the car is phenomenal and the team is phenomenal. But that that car is. Is very, very, very quick with the right driver. There's a lot of those guys out there, George Lando, Alex Albon, those guys that are coming up and coming through. They are phenomenal drivers. Absolutely phenomenal. And they. They're quite underrated, really, because, you know, Paul, George, he's got a car at the back of the grid, but.
But, yeah, he should need a chance.
Jump in and make it go. Yeah. And it's just, you know, George is very lucky. His manager is Toto, so he's well looked after in that respect, you know. Stoffel was. Stoffel who? One of our, was one of our McLaren drivers. He's, he's the official reserve driver for Mercedes. But he flew back from, I think he was out testing in Valencia or Barcelona, somewhere like that. And he flew back for the race thinking he was getting Lewis's seat, but wasn't to be even Stoffer would have jumped in. And with a podium, no problems at all. The phenomenal guys they are, they're all.
Just, I love that 20, letting it, letting a youngster have a chance. And it's a bit like say in football, you know, chucking on a 17 year old when it was a Michael Owen or someone and they, and they light things up and it shows you, you know, it's not about how old you are, as, you know, if you're, if you're able to compete with the best of them, then you're, you know, you're, how can I put it? You know, if you're, as a footballer, if you're 16, 17, trying to think what the saying was, you know, but if you're, if you're good enough, you're old enough.
Yeah. And it's, and I think, and if you look at Kimi Raikkonen, who's at the other end of the spectrum, who's in his, what he must be in his late 70s now. He's, he's, he's phenomenal. He's, he's just, he's out there, he's enjoying life. It's a hobby to Kimmy. He's just, he's paying for his own seat. He's, he's loving life. You know, he's got no stress, no pressure. He would jump in. He still quick enough to be, to be in those top 20 in the world. No problems at all.
There's still time.
Yeah, there's still time. Yeah. And like you say, you've got Fernando Alonso returning this year.
Yeah.
Again. Is probably what, in his late 60s now. He's got to be, isn't he? So, you know, they'll jump in and go. He was even part of the young testing, driving, young, young driver testing program. So I don't know how he got around that, but.
Yeah, all right.
Yeah.
Bring back some of the, the old garden and mix it up a bit.
What else interesting.
I was going to ask you, because when you go into, let's say companies, when you're with Danny as well and you're working on the leadership development, team building, if for a guy listening, who's working, because I think the game has changed this year because a lot of guys are having to work from home. And I think it's much more difficult or challenging to create a team environment and an ethos and when you're all sitting on bloody zoom calls instead of actually having time face to face. So how do you think that has changed things for you this year if you're talking to a company about their, you know, their, Their leadership skills and their teamwork when they're not actually going to be in the same room as each other?
Yes. It's kind of are we working from home or are we sleeping at work? Yeah, is a good question. I don't know the answer. I think I'm working at home still. It does feel like I'm sleeping at home. It is really, really difficult. Um, one of my friends who I'm sort of doing some work with on a score, kind of a sciency basis, Marcia, Dr. Marcia, she's just started a new role as kind of working in. She's a behavior scientist and things, and she's been brought into to work on the culture of a company. And she's like, I haven't even met the team yet. It's just really, really hard. It's like I'm creating a culture that I haven't seen or worked in or lived in, in or breathed. I haven't even been to the office yet. Yeah, and that's really, really hard. It is really, really hard stuff. And we're missing a lot of those. Those kind of those coffee machine moments or vending machine moments where we just go and have a chat and just where we could be creative. We've been asked by a company kind of. He's like, because we're not ordinarily what had. They would do their nine to five, they'll go down the pub afterwards and have a few beers and. And that's kind of when the magic happens. He's like, we're not getting that at. How can we get that back? And that's a really hard question. It's kind of because we are just. We can't go out and just do that creativity stuff. It's really, really hard. But again, it's just keeping. Keeping those people inspired and motivated and moving forward and kind of keeping that energy and buzz going as much as you can in the situation you are, which I get is really, really tough. And even us, you know, even Danny and I, we're kind of of like, this is pretty brutal. You know, we talk about surviving and thriving and, you know, it's Yeah, I.
Was just gonna ask for everybody for you. And I spend a lot of time either talking about this or think about this, because in the last. Let's call it last year, fucking a whole year nearly, of. Of this ridiculous change to the way we're working. And how do you stay focused, energized, you know, motivated yourself?
That's a good question, isn't it? My. That's a really good question. Lockdown. I don't want to be a dick, but kind of lockdown was really good for me because I lost a stone in weight. I just. I did PE with Joe every morning. I got really fit. And again, I was just. Because I was. I was doing my racing season. I got my race car. I bought my race car three days before we locked down. So every time I opened up the blind in the morning, morning, there was a race car sat on the drive that I couldn't drive.
Yeah.
So that was kind of. I knew that I would be going racing this year. I didn't know when. So my. My process was I just need to be as fit, healthy, mentally, physically as I can be when those lights go out. So I just bust my backside and just found. I just. I kind of. Kind of did the same thing. It's just. I kind of look at it as another. It's another trauma, isn't it, really, this pandemic? It is. Is traumatic in some way. It's. Oh, definitely. But it's. It's tapping into that resilience that I used when I was. You know, when I was on the stroke ward over in Watford Hospital. You know, I sat in this ward, I looked around, and there was five other guys, or four guys, one lady, all in their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, hundreds. And I was 30 something. I was just like, shouldn't be here. Shouldn't be here. Yeah, this isn't right. I shouldn't be here. And the physio came round and, you know, she was like, what's your plan? What's she going? I was like, look, the coffee is crap that you serve me. I'm a big coffee fan. I know there's a Costa machine downstairs. Can we do a deal? If I can walk to that coffee machine, can I go home? She's like, okay. So she started me off with a stress ball, a squeezy ball, like when people give up smoking. She gave me that ball, and I sat there for a whole day with it in my hand, not doing anything inside my head, was giving it the beans. And I was squeezing that ball because I Knew if I could get. I knew if I get my fingers working, I'd get my hand working, I'd get my arm moving, I'd get my leg moving, I could walk, I could get downstairs and get a coffee and I could just go home. Um, so I just kind of use that. That kind of stubbornness, that just, just, Just get on and go kind of attitude and mindset and I just. If. If I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it and I work it out how it's going to look like later. Sometimes I'm a bit kind of jumping with both feet and let's go. Because I've got nothing to lose. I've lost 30 years of life, memory, friends, family. I don't really see, like, I've got my chance to lose at times, so I'm just. Just like it. Let's go. Sorry for swearing.
You can swear you want.
Yeah, cool. But I just, like, I've just got that stubbornness. I'm just like, I don't want to be here. I'm gonna get out, I'm gonna go and that's it. And. And I didn't. I think it was about four days later, I walked off the ward. There's an old guy opposite me. He's like, what you doing? You're not squeezing the ball? I was like, no, I am squeezing it. And he's like, you're not. I am, yeah. And then. Yeah. So a couple of days later, my, you know, my fingers started moving, so I stuck my fingers up a bit, little him and went and he'd been there for weeks and months. He was just not doing anything about it. Just sat there going beside me.
Isn't that part of what we say with the whole man academy? It's about. I'm not saying being resilient necessarily is easy, but if you've got the attitude of being resilient, you can find a way. And it doesn't mean that it's always easy like that. You could be laying in a hospital bed and some people that have. Look at Danny. Losing an arm could be an excuse for. Oh, well, I've had this incident. But for him, it's a driver to say, I'm going to go and achieve, not just achieve something, but win, you know, win some of the highest accolades.
And that.
That does come down to your mindset, doesn't it?
Yeah, you've got a. There is a bit of, you know, I'm just a normal guy. I don't. I don't know any Different. I've just done what I've done and I don't know what the magic or the science is behind it. I just kind of cracked on. That's. That's how I am, I guess. You know, there's a guy. There's a guy who's lost an arm. Exactly. Same as Danny. Not, I don't know about same circumstances, but he' lost an arm and he sits just off the Watford Ring Ring Road here, begging every day. And it's kind of, you know, I don't know what's gone on in his world and, you know, I obviously know what's going on in Danny's world, but you kind of look at these two guys have got the same kind of physical impairment, yet one's gone on to do some bloody amazing stuff and the other one hasn't. And it's kind of. You got to look at what's going on in that mindset and attitude towards it, really. And it's, you know, I could have made a decision to sit at home when I lost my memory and just sit home and go. Just going to watch Jeremy Khan all day. Yeah. Why? Why not? I could just sit on the benefits and do nothing. But that's not my style, really. That's just not me. That's my makeup. It's just, you know, I take a kick in the nuts, I'll take a kick in the nuts, I'll crack on to the next one. And 2020 has delivered another one to us. So it's just that you just kind of adapt and go, well, it is not. It is what it is. It's that kind of control, the controllable stuff. Yeah. Well, what can we do about it? Right here, right now? Not a lot.
Yeah.
You know, lockdown. It's like, well, what can we do? There's no point getting upset and angry about it because I can't go out and do. But I can. I'm now in a house and I've got a different environment, so what can I do? I can do some weights, I can, you know, I can go out for my half an hour run or whatever it was in the first. First. So you got your hour exercise, whatever.
That'S good of them.
Yeah. Yes. Very kind of you. Thank you, Boris. I did a bit. I make the most of that and utilize it every day and, you know, I'd go walk the dog and things like that and just get that exercise and get the fitness in and. Because I knew that when I was going racing, I would be fitter and Healthier the rest of the guys.
An end goal, as it were.
Yeah, but I just didn't know when that was coming. Yeah, because it was, it might be, it might be March, it might be April, it might be, you know, but that's no, that's no different to the Olympic athletes who are like, I'm ready for Tokyo 2020. And it's like, oh, hang on, it's 2021.
Well, I wonder, I wonder. And you know about that as well as obviously with Danny. I was talking about this on. I can't remember what Christmas Day it was, how difficult it must have been for those athletes who are. Whereas a racing driver is building up for maybe 12 races a year, plus qualifying, etc. But for the Olympic athletes, it's basically being ready for two weeks of exercise, if that makes sense. I know you've got qualifying for that, but how hard it must have been for them when you're on that complete regime and timescale to then rip that up. I wonder how that's worked for them.
Very difficult. It's, you know, the Olympics isn't just. It kind of is those two weeks, but it's not those two weeks with Olympic athletes. We work on a four year cycle. We work on Olympic cycle. So as soon as we finished, you know, in 2016, it was, we were looking at plans to get, get them back in shape, ready to perform again in 2020. Now for some athletes, 2021 is going to be one year too far. I won't name names, but there's some of them that are kind of, it would have been their swan song year, have been able to stay at that level and that high level of kind of physical and mental stress that they're under. And I think 2021 is just one year too far. They're not gonna, even if they take a rest this year as such, or have a bit more of an easier year to turn it on again. It's gonna be very hard physically because they are just another year older and physiologically they will be quite different. So very, very hard for some of them. Very, very difficult indeed. But it is just, it's not failure. It's just we just got to work out how to kind of readjust and it's almost like just getting a no jump in the long jump. It's like, well, let's look at it. What's the feedback? What does it tell us? What do we need to do and adjust to make sure we can get it right next time? It's just the next time Isn't it a jump in 30 seconds time? It's actually a year down the line. So it's just looking at that long term goal and then putting in another lot of little process steps to make sure that we're good to go again when we can go in 20, 21. Yeah, I think Danny was the most disappointed because he's not out there commentating. So. Yes, I bet it was. Yeah, there was a post in September, should be going up. Yeah.
That'S the thing you forget about all the, as you say, it's the hours people put in in the years preceding. And as you said, it's usually as soon as an athlete finishes, then it's what's next. And even if you've won, it's can I go faster or at least achieve what I just achieved? So yeah, it must have been very tough for people.
Yeah. And that's, but that's, that's kind of a world they used to and operating. You know, we, as soon as we finish a Formula one race, we're straight back in the truck looking at the data and analyzing it, looking how do we go quicker? As soon as they do their PR stuff and their comp stuff and talk to the telly and their media kind of role finishes, it's literally straight back in the truck. Let's go. What's the data? Where could we have improved? What can we learn? How can we move forward? Because this season's been really condensed. You've only got a week until the next one. You're at Silverstone week after week or every couple of weeks and it's really, really hard work. So it's very condensed and very focused. But when it goes to that extreme, suddenly, oh, now we've got a year to wait. It's like, what does that look like? Because we're not racing in between, so we don't know how we're, how we are performing. We can do some, we can do some tests in training as such, but that doesn't simulate racing. You know, you've got the national championships or other, other international championships, diamond leagues, things like that. That's not been happening. Yeah.
There been any athletics at all and I've not seen any.
But yeah, there has. They did some, certainly in Europe they did some and they kind of did some diamond league. I remember War Home, the 400 meter hurdler, actually. I'm not sure if he ran a world record or ran very close to it, but he ran a lonely ray, ran on his own, basically just did a 400 meter hurdle race out in Stockholm or something like that. But they had people in the audience and noise and I was going to simulate it as much as possible because.
We know that gives you bit a little lift, you know, you know, when you're, especially if you're in a. I don't know, fun enough. I did a podcast recording this afternoon as well and we were talking about not having the crowd at football and you know, when you, when you go, if you're warming up and you go to go on, if your team are losing but you've got the crowd behind you, it gives you the lift and. Or if you're running, you know, the, the last few hundred meters of a 800 meter race and you've got 60,000 people cheering you on, like it or not. That gives you an extra little something interesting.
Yeah. If, if you wired that way. Yes, some people thrive on that noise. Some people will run their best times in a local chat meeting where there is. Where they don't have that noise so they can just focus on what they need to do. So yeah, it does affect people differently. Some people kind of thrive on that crowd going wild. And you know, it does get. I know when I've run London marathon a few times that kind of those last couple of hundred met where you've got the whole crowd right along the embankment and the noise, it does, it does pick you up. But for some people that, you know, if they're highly auditory, might just go, shit. Too much noise. I don't like it. So some people just, you know, a lot of people doing virtual runs because people are quite happy training and racing on their own, they thrive on that. Other people need people around them. It's. It's interesting how it affects us differently. But yeah, the noise of the crowd and stuff is immediate, amazing. It's immense.
It gets the adrenaline going.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, what about any more London marathons for you? Any more marathons at all?
No, I ra. Well, no, no, no. Yeah, I've done, I've done 11 now. I ran with. My last one was Danny and Tim Lawler, the CEO of Sports Aid. We did a mile mars my miles marathon. Yeah. And Danny and Tim had been training quite hard. Then about six weeks I went, yeah, I'll join you. What's the worst that'll happen? And we ran from Stoke Mandeville to Milton Keynes to I think it's a Jury's Inn where there was a big Sports Aid lunch. So we kind of self navigated from. Yeah, from Stoke Mandeville to. We ended up running about 27 and a half miles. The week before, I was actually doing a 1500 meter race or maybe a steeplechase race in Milton Keynes. So I'd go gone from, you know, running a mile or so to suddenly having to do 26 back to back. And I kind of looked at it as a social experiment and, and after about 14, 17 miles, I became very unsocial and it really did become an experiment as to whether I'd got round. And I just bitched and moaned those last few bars because I was really hurting. Yeah, it was very painful. But what was hurting that day?
What was hurting most?
Everything from the neck down. It was just pure lack of training, conditioning, everything. It was, you know, I was, I was fit for 1500 meters.
Yeah, well, I was gonna say, you know, being. I know 1500 isn't a sprint, but it's, it's a, it's an intense.
Not far off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the 800 and 1500 are becoming more, more and more like sprint races now as we're getting quicker and quicker and even some of these guys running 5Ks, 10Ks, you know, they're running, you know, 10K, they're running 6 miles at 4 minutes 20 seconds a mile, you.
Know, and it's faster than most people can run at all.
Exactly, yeah, ever. And it's just, you know, they're running 10k quicker than people are running 5ks. It's phenomenal. So they are running at a high intensity for, for a long time now. Even the sub two hour marathon's phenomenal. That's four, whatever that is. Yeah, four minutes and a few seconds a mile. It's amazing. But yeah, everything from the neck down hurts. I don't, I don't lie about that. It was really uncomfortable.
I always ask people. It's always an interesting one when people have done long distance stuff because I'd been doing lots of obstacle course racing, but mostly that was about on average about 10 miles, something like that. But then I did the man versus mountain, so ran to the top of Snowden and back down. So that was about 20, you know, 20, whatever it is, miles. And I remember it was my hips that were hurting. My knees were fine and my ankles were fine, but my hips, it was like someone had put some bicarbonate of soda in my hips because I felt like they were grinding in the last mile or two. And he just, it's just something you've never had before in training and then suddenly, you know, because you're going up and Downhill as well. It's totally different to running on the flat. And I can't say the last two miles wasn't particularly enjoyable to. To be honest.
Yeah, it's not. It's no fun, is it? I don't know why people do it, to be honest. Yeah. Like, people go, I want to run a marathon. I'm like, why? Yeah, just drive it. Yeah, it hurts. It's not. It's not.
It's totally different to running on the flat. And I can't say the last two miles wasn't. Wasn't particularly enjoyable, to be honest.
Yeah, it's not. It's no fun, is it? I don't know why people do it, to be honest. Funny, but, yeah, you know, I get it. It's, you know, things with the mountain stuff, it's a very, like, people go, I want to run a marathon. I'm like, why? Yeah, just drive it. Yeah, it hurts. It's not. It's not very different style. And you'll be leaning forward a lot and leaning back a lot. You'll be kind of. You're running downhill. You're kind of. You almost breaking all the time. So it does put a lot of stress on that core. And, you know, we did the. The SAS selection mark the fan dance, and I did that about three months after I had a second mild stroke.
Excellent.
So I had my. My left arm was strapped up, so my left arm, it was okay. It would function, but I would find that when I got to extreme fatigue, it would just flop around. Yeah. So when I was racing, so I was still competing on the track, and I found that the first race I did, I was coming up the straight and I was giving it the beans around then it could just fatigue. It started flopping around like a floppy, and I was worried I was going to trap somebody. I started just strapping it up so I didn't want to hit somebody, slap.
Them in the face.
Strapped it up. Yeah, exactly. I'd be in trouble. So I strapped it up and I started running with a sling. So I kind of got a. A bit of an insight into Danny's world, where you're running with one arm and. And he didn't recover in time for this fan dance. So I went into fan dance with my arm strapped up, which is bloody, bloody hard work. And that was just phenomenal. Running with boots and we had, like. I think we had to have like £40 on our back and water and food. It was horrific. Absolutely horrific. And that was the toughest. A part of me died. Out there, definitely. And it was absolutely brutal. Really, really brutal. Mentally, physically. It was horrific.
Did you ever look back?
It was amazing.
You get to that stage, we think, what the. Like during, say, what the fuck am I doing? Why am I doing this?
Yeah, because it was really hurting. There's a bit on the way. There's a bit on the way back up called Jacob's Ladder. And Jacob's Ladder is about a mile long. And some of these bricks are a little bit higher than kind of, you know, when you step up, up and you do, like a high step, they were about half an inch higher than they needed to be. And I don't know who put them there, because they're not. They're not natural. So some sick.
Just a test.
Put these. Yeah, put these things there. And I was cramping because you just lifted your leg that little bit too far and cramped. So your hamstring would go, like. And it was. It took me. It took me an hour to do that mile of that route. And I was just like. I felt every. And it was blowing a gale. It was like minus three. There was just ice on our faces. It was just. And you kind of go, why am I here? But you kind of go, well, because I am. And I'm pushing my body and I love. Yeah, I'm testing myself. I'm pushing. And I learned so much in those couple of hours I was out there and, you know, I learned that even with a physical impairment, I can go on and do some stuff and it would really hurt. And it was. It was bloody uncomfortable. And I don't. You know when people. I joke about running marathons. And it does hurt. It really does hurt. If you don't train properly or prepare, it's bloody painful. Well, you.
You just said something important there, which is about. There's a difference between doing hard training and hard training in really cold weather. You know, when It's. When it's 3 degrees or 0, and I know from doing some of the races where I did them in January, like tough guy up in Wolverhampton, and, you know, it would be 0 degrees or minus 1 or something, and you can be as fit and as fast as you think you are, but as soon as you get in freezing col water up to, you know, and dunk yourself in it, suddenly all that energy is gone and you're like a bedraggled dog. So I think it's like, say it's testing yourself.
Yeah, it's just pushing. It's just pushing yourself, isn't it? It's just like, so we talk about comfort zones and stuff like that. It's just, you've just got to push yourself every now and again with that is just getting out for a mile walk or whether that is going running something really silly. It's just getting out there and doing it and you know, but preparation is key. I think that's the key. Learning I've done, I've done a lot of things very under prepared, but that's where I've learned the most. That's where I've learned what I can do and what I can achieve physically and mentally by, by not being fully, fully fit. That just shows what stubborn soda can be. Sometimes if I want to go and do something, I'll go and do it. And it's, you can do it.
Yeah, but that's a really good point because I've, you know, I've spoke to people in the past who said to me that they want to run a marathon. And I say, you know, what's stopping all the training and everything? And I say, look, you can run a marathon now if you want to. And they look at you like you're completely bonkers. And I say, let's look at this way. If you know, if they've got children, if someone said that your child has, I know, been kidnapped, they're 24 miles away and the only way to get there is to, is to run. You're not going to run, you're going to jog. No one, you know, only the elite run a marathon. The rest, jog it or slaughter. So when you've got something strong enough to pull you, you'll do it. I'm not saying you're going to set any records. And they're like, oh yeah, I said so then it becomes how quick do you want to do it? Because it's not whether you can complete it or not. And that takes the pressure off people sometimes.
Yeah, big time. And it's, and that's the thing I always, the first thing I ask people, people say to me, I want to run a marathon. I go, why? What's your purpose? Why do you want to do it? Because, you know, training for a marathon takes six months of your life. And if the environment's not right, so if you've got fat family, kids, baby, it's not going to be conducive to you running a good marathon. So you kind of got to get your head around that to start with and work and you know, because if you get to week 14 of your schedule and you've got to do a 17 mile run on a Wednesday night, you know, is that possible? If you've got to take Daisy to ballet and Johnny to taekwondo or something, it's like, is it conducive? So you've got to kind of look at the bigger picture, the culture, the environment and everything else and go, is it conducive to you running your marathon? Because you've got to be selfish for six months of those years to put the effort in if you want to run a good time, like you say, you're right. It then becomes a. How quick do you want to. And everybody's got a. Everybody wants to be. And it. We. You know, this comparing yourself to each other, it's just. Just go out and run it. Who cares if it's two hours? Who cares if it's six hours? The medals the same. I've got. I've got a London Marathon medal that is exactly the same as Kipchoge who won it the year I have. Yeah. What's the difference? You know, he just run it a bit quicker than me. Yeah, fair play to him. He's training full time. He can do that. I can do that at the time.
So that comes into living a life of. I call it living a life of adventure is that I want to have a life where each year you can look back and you've. You can remember the experiences. And I think this year has been a bit shit for that because, you know, I've got lots of friends that were meant to be. Maybe, maybe they were skiing. I do heli skiing. Or they were, you know, traveling abroad to Bali or they were doing all these different. They were doing a marathon and it's all got taken away from them. But for me it is about, you know, at the end of the year I want to be able to look back and that's why I started doing obstacle courses racing, because I was a bit bored with just going to the gym. And you could have these once a month memorable races all around the country or in the US and what have you. But, but that meant that it. I don't know, it gave you. It meant you were living life in your own adventure and got you to train. Because otherwise I wouldn't have done that training if I didn't have the races to train for.
Exactly. Yeah. And I think, you know, kind of my adventure apart from a racing has been doing the PE with Joe stuff. As much as. As I despise him for having too much hair. Yeah. You know, it's. It got me out of bed every morning and I was begrudgingly moaning and bitching about Rudy, Pee Wee Joe, the floppy hair. But you know, it got me, got the job done to it to a stage where. And I wouldn't do that if I, you know, I'm doing a bit now again because I know I've got to get keep fit over the winter. But yeah, you know, if you'd have said to me two years ago, right, you're going to do PE with some personal trainer on the, on the screen for 30 minutes each day and every Friday he's going to do doing fancy dress and you're going to join in. I'll be like, right, yeah, yeah, don't be stupid. What's that all about? But, but here I am every Friday doing my fancy dress P with Joe.
You know, dressed in a tiger suit.
Yeah, absolutely. You've seen the footage. Blue is cool. Some days I'll be Spider Man.
Some days there's some stuff on the Dark Web.
Yeah, yeah, I'll dig the link out. Yeah.
Well, this is what I love about talking to, to guys who are living a, you know, how could put a life of adventure on their own terms on the podcast is because I just find it so interesting to hear, you know, your, your experiences and what's going on. And I was going to finish off by asking if you had one bit of advice for, for a guy listening here on how to do life better. It could be anything that someone's given you advice or you've given someone else. What, what kind of thing would it be?
Whoa, that's a big question. I should have prepared for that. I, I believe in just go and do it. I lost 30 years in pretty much a 10 mile run to hospital. So kind of life is very fragile. Memories, the brain's very, very fragile. So I'm just a great believer in just go and do it, worry about it later because you might not get that opportunity. You know, I don't have any regrets from losing my memory. Don't get me wrong, it's happened and it is what it is and I've learned to cope and adjust and it's all good. And I wouldn' do it any different. If you asked me to go back 20 years, I'd still be out there jumping in fast cars and firing guns. It's all good. I loved it, apparently. But for me it's just, yeah, just get on and go get on and do it though. There are no limits. It's only somebody telling you you can't or you telling yourself you can't. And that's basically. If somebody else can go and do it, why can't you. Somebody's running a tour marathon. Why can't you go run two and a half hours? Why can't you go run four hours? Why can't you just go run 26 miles, go walk 26 miles? It's just, I think it's that stopping, comparing ourselves to each other, because that's just a waste of time and effort, energy, and just do what you can with what you've got. There's nothing stopping you. Whether that is just walking 400 meters, whether that's running 40 miles, doesn't matter how big or small. Yeah, something is, is something. So just go and do it. Get on, crack on. Just enjoy it.
That's a great one to. It's a great one to, to finish. Because I think, especially in January, a lot of people forgetting what bullshit tier we'll be in because I lose track of, of. Of what we're allowed to do. But to be able to say, you know, a lot of people re. How could it reevaluate their life in. At the start of a year? So it's a good time to have this podcast to be like, you know, whatever you're thinking of doing, just go and fucking get involved and, you know, just. You haven't got to know everything that's to do with it. Just know the first.
Yeah, exactly. It's like running the heart. The hardest step with running is that first step out the door. It's always a bit harder for doors locked, so unlock it first. But taking that first step out the door, if you come in from work and you've had a really hard day, and then as soon as you sit down, as soon as that, as soon as your backside touches the couch, you're done. Literally. Get dressed, get back out there. I can't run in the mornings for toffee, but I kind of now trick my brain. I'll set the alarm and I'll get up, I get dressed and I'll be out the door and I'll suddenly wake up three miles away going, how come I do it out here? Otherwise I wouldn't do it. And so things like that, just, just get on and, and have a go. You don't need to know because. Because we no idea what's going to happen in six months time with no idea if we're going to be back in a world where we can hug each other or see loved ones and stuff like that. So it's. What can we do today? What can I do right here, right now? Because, yeah, tomorrow might not come.
I'm available for yesterday.
So, yeah, yeah, I'm all. I'm all up for a hug. There's no issue. So it's just. Yeah, it's just kind of get on and do it today. Don't. Because tomorrow might not come or you might not remember what you're going to do tomorrow. So kind of get on now.
Well, on that bombshell, I appreciate all your time. Firstly, I appreciate when you came and spoke at the event.
Good, buddy. It's all good. I love what you're doing. I love the cause and stuff. So getting men talking, that's what my brother didn't do. So to me, it's a big. It's a big win all around, really. So, yeah, even two guys chatting for an hour, it's good. Get it out there, stick with what we're good at. Love it. Exactly. There's no point hiding it, is there?
No, Exactly.
That's brilliant.
I will let you go and enjoy the rest of your afternoon and. And I will speak to you soon.
Look forward to it. Anthony, thanks again, buddy. Take care, mate. Take Sam.
