EP065 - The Master Barber - Stefan Avanzato

So this is the whole Man Academy podcast. My guest today is Stefan Avanzato, owner and founder of Avenzato Grooming Lounge in the swanky Mayfair, which I miss going to quite a lot. He's an author, which probably make him smile to hear that author of his Map, a book we're going to talk about. He's the go to expert for men's grooming. Gillette, master barber, fellow Liverpool supporter. We're going to be discussing men's grooming, no surprise mindset and his rather excellent new book. Young man, how are you and where are you?

I'm very well, thank you. I'm in South London, Streatham, where I've been born and raised. I've been out of Mayfair for quite a while now, obviously due to lockdown.

Yeah.

But yeah, thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate the time and thank you for inviting me on.

It's a pleasure. And I know since we started chatting I sensed that we would get on quite well, not least because we're both Liverpool supporters. But also I just wondered, a pretty technical question to start with. How do you pronounce Streatham? Because my friend likes to, who lived there called it St Rhythm because he said it sounds more posh.

I hear a lot of people coming. Oh, so you look at St Rutham. Yeah, yeah, it is Streatham. There's no, there's no swanky or fancy way of saying it, but it's, it's very up and coming, you know, that's what they say. So it is.

Well, seeing as I'm from technically South London or south of South London myself, I, I know the area. But what's it been like for you? I mean, because how many, you know, the area of Mayfair where your shop is, where you know, I mean, it's such a lovely area. But what's it been like having that closed for how many months?

It's been pretty tough, but over time you learn how to manage it, you learn how to deal with it. You still have to keep that interaction with your clients, your friends and people that do become family. I'm lucky because I've had so much support from the people who do come and visit me at the store and we're on a very, we communicate often. They message me on a very regular basis, I message them on a regular basis. So we build that relationship. So it feels like I am away from there, but the people that do surround me there and I see on a regular basis around there, they contact me all the time. So the messages of support from clients has been incredible. And just the fact that they do think about me and I think about them and we continue to communicate is amazing.

So it's good to hear. And I was going to say, because what's. What date? I don't know bloody date we are. But what date. Have you been given a date to open back up?

In theory, yes. So we can open back up on the 12th of April and we are super busy. People have already been rushing into booking their appointments. The first couple of weeks, I think for me are already fully booked. There are some spaces available if you did want to get down. But yeah, so, I mean, we will be super busy. So everyone can't wait to rush back into central London. I'm sure I've been driving around there a little bit and it's a little bit of a ghost town at the moment, but I'm sure it's going to pick up when everyone has a reason to go back into there. Yeah, that's it exactly.

Well, I've read your book and we're going to talk a bit about that, but I just wanted to talk a bit about your story from the time when you start. I've just written about it for our E letter but for. For a guy who was just building up his career, but I guess that was more of hairdressing with women and. And you had the issue with the chemicals affecting your skin and then you kind of, you know, career seemed to be basically for a little while, to use a test term.

Absolutely. So when I was a kid, I was. I was a little bit naughty. I wasn't, I wasn't great at school and I was always getting in trouble. I was a bit of the joker of the classroom and. And you know that I ended up getting kicked out and they gave me free choices. They put me in this center in. In between Brixton and Oval. It was for bad kids essentially who got kicked out of school. And they put me there and they said, we're going to find you a course for college. And I said, great, what do you want to do? And I was like, find me a trade. I'll do plumbing mechanics. I'll be an electrician. Anyway, nine months later, after being in this place, they came back and we said, oh great, we found you three courses. And I was like, what are they? And she said we found you hairdressing, childcare and catering.

Perfect.

I was like, yeah, I can see the similarities and all the examples I gave you, but here we go. And I remember this conversation at the Dinner table with my parents at the time and my stepdad and my mum. And my mom was like, oh, you're good at cooking. Why don't you do catering? And I was like, when do I ever cook, Mum? It's not going to happen. She's like, all right, well you're good with kids. Why don't you do child care? And I said, I'm good with my one little cousin and that's about it. And then she said, well, why don't you do hairdressing? I said, no chance, Mum. Like growing up in South London, can you imagine? I'll just get slated for that. Yeah, well, just think how many women. Yeah, absolutely, I did anyway, but. And my mom was like, just think how many women are involved. I was like, you know what, you're onto something here. So I started my first college course at Cole Shorten College, and I was there for six months. And then I eventually found an apprenticeship at John Frieda, which I started when I was 15. And that was very, very different to the grey streets of South London. And, you know, you first start working in Mayfair and you're 15 and you're getting paid £520amonth. And I was like, oh, I could get used to this. You know, all my friends are still in school or college or doing their exams and. And I was, ah, this is pretty good. So I was there for two and a half years and then I started slowly developing like a bad allergy to all these colors and chemicals which came on over time. And then after about two years, they put me into a color department. John Frieda. Every six months, they, you, they change you over into a different department. And after two years they put me in color. And that's when it all started going downhill. My hands got really bad. I couldn't breathe in the salon. And then there was a couple of times where I just had to get rushed to hospital and tried to see private dermatologists and doctors and they were like, right, that's it. You're gonna have to think about your health. And I was like, I quite enjoy this. This is quite fun. But then, yeah, I had to really sort of think about a career change and what direction I was heading. And that's when I kind of turned into men's barbering. But it also took me a little bit of a while to make that, that change from hairdressing into barber. And it didn't happen immediately, but, yeah, I found it and I continued. And I'd already seen how the luxury hairdressers in Mayfair already operate. And I thought surely there must be the equivalent to a men's salon here and, or the equivalent to, to this high end experience, right? Yeah. And yeah. So then I came back to South London and I started learning the basics of barbering and I already had some skills that I took from ladies hairdressing already with me and, and I thought, okay, I could actually do this. So I started managing a few barbershops in the local area, sort of South London. So I went from Stretton to Carl shorten to Wandsworth and then I was like, right, I've already experienced the life up in Mayfair And I was like, surely there must be the higher end side of things in, in Mayfair. So yeah, going from a 14, 15 year old working in Mayfair then coming back down to Stretton, it just wasn't the same. So I was like, right, I'm gonna go and have a little more of a look about what's going on around there. So that's where I kind of started my barbering career at sort of 1918, 19 in Mayfair and I found a job back in Mayfair and, and I was like, right, I think this is where I'm gonna stay and this is where I'm going to build my name. And, and yeah, off it went. It progressed from there.

Well, what was it like when you, when you opened your shop? Because that must have been a, a great kind of, you know, that one of those big stepping stones.

It was, it was terrifying. But I mean, I guess if we never take those risks, we're never going to know. It was always a dream of mine to set up my own salon to start with. But then obviously that came down to. That came crashing down and I knew I couldn't work in a salon environment anymore. So I kind of scribbled a little bit and went into sort of the hair, the men's hair thing, the men's hair industry, it was petrifying. You know, you're, you're out on your own, you've been, you've been working and you've had security from other brands in the past. You've been on a really good wage and yeah, you're about to leave that and it could fail, it could do really well. So yeah, the security is no longer there. However, I knew if I didn't take that step and I knew if I didn't make that move I would forever kick myself and forever like always think in my head, but what if, what if, what if I did that? What if I did that? So you have to make that giant step, and you have to make that. That move. Otherwise, I don't. I don't think it's something you'll be able to forgive yourself with.

I think that kind of links back to last week's podcast with Ben Fogel, where he said several times, you know, go big or go home.

Yeah.

You know, you can play small in life if you want, and if that's what you want to do, that's great. But if you've kind of, you know, there's something more for you out there. Like you said, you've got to get out your comfort zone and take those risks.

Absolutely. And I did think to myself, I've done this for many other brands in the past. You know, I've managed other brands. I've. And they've. They've been. They've been very successful men's gents, grooming brands, you know, and they're still going today. And you're thinking, well, you've done this for other people. Why aren't you doing this for yourself?

Yeah.

So eventually you then go on to make up, make your move. You. You build your name, you build your. Your toolbox, essentially, throughout the years, you know, and. And then you go from that. It does take a lot of years experience, and you have to. You have to learn as much as you possibly can on the way, you know, and then when you're ready, you make that move and you go for it, you know?

Yeah.

But be ready to go and make that move.

It's great. Well, I guess, you know, that that leads us then onto the book, because, I mean, that's one of the reasons you and I kind of got in touch with each other, because you have a mutual kind of appreciation for how important men's mindset is. And with the book, which I've got a virtual background, but I'm holding up in front of me now, which just about works. Jackpot.

I'll hold mine up.

That's it. I've got to stay still with Double It Up. But why did you decide to do the book? What drew you in to say, you know what? I'm writing a book?

Well, first things first. We went into the first lockdown back. Back in, what was it, March, April last year. And I had a lot of time on my hands. I wanted to think of some things that I wanted to do in my past that I've never really had time to do. I've worked very, very hard for the past few years, obviously, building the brand and getting to where I AM today, and I needed a bit of a holiday. So it's about using the time wisely. So I wanted to do a lot of the things that I haven't been able to do in the past. So I started doing a lot of art. I started exercising a lot. Yeah, really, I read. I read a lot. And I feel like reading is one of the main things that helped me progress and helped me build the knowledge that I needed to move forward. And I thought, oh, no. Then I basically started suffering from anxiety and panic attacks as well. So I got to a stage where I was getting a lot of messages from clients and they were messaging me, asking me how I was. They wanted to support me. They said, stefan, if you want me to pay for haircuts up front, then please let me know. I didn't want to go back to work and then play catch up. And I really, really. I was so humbled by their offers, and it really meant so much to me that they were still willing to support me even if I wasn't. You know, we weren't face to face and stuff. So I was very, very humbled by that. And then I thought, what could I do? I also got many clients that were texting me saying that they were struggling and going through tough times. So I was like, what could I do that my clients could support me with? I could give them something physical. So I'm not playing catch up when we do get back to work. So I decided to write. Write a book. And I was obviously going through my anxieties and panic attacks back then as well. And I would learn to manage it, and I learned to deal with it in my own ways. And I did a lot of research to try and find out what are the best ways to manage this. So I decided to put it all down in my own book and what helped me overcome this and what helped me to manage all of my problems, you know, And I've had many, many of my clients sit in my chair and tell me about their problems and tell me that they suffer from anxiety. And at the time, I didn't really know what it felt like. You never really know what anxiety feels like until you've actually experienced it yourself. So it was. It was one to help my clients to. To help other people out there who were going through similar. Similar situations. And Free is a book to teach people how to manage anxiety and cost confidence issues, you know, essentially. And. And just to. I just wanted to help at least one person out there, and I'm. I'm lucky because I Am in a position where so many people can reach out to me and I'm, I am in a position where I can reach out to so many people. And I understand that there's not many people out there who have that, that circle around them.

Yeah.

Right. So it is priceless. But owning a barbershop, it automatically puts contacts in front of you and it's up to you what how you are as a person and how you, you deal with people who are in front of you. Right.

So what like with, I was going to ask you with the guys that you're cutting their hair and obviously some of them are high profile people, but. Yeah, I guess for you it is one of those where it's, it's kind of part therapy because often the, you know, over the, over the years that I've sat in a barber's chair, the stuff that you hear men come out with talking to their, their barber or hairdresser, sometimes you're like, I wonder if you tell that to other people, but they seem to feel confident in sitting talking to a barber about it.

Do you know what, it's a bit of an unwritten rule, you know, that people come into a barbershop and they absolutely just open up. There's nowhere they can really. I mean, apart from other. They might do it with an osteopath or someone who's looking after their back. Yeah. Say for example, if someone goes to a dentist, it's not a place where you can kind of talk and have a conversation. You know, they're in your mouth. But, but a barber shop is kind of like a place where people just feel automatically comfortable. Obviously it depends who's standing behind the chair as well. Yeah, but if you're a personable person and you've got good energy and there's no reason why a man wouldn't tell you about themselves, you know, while sat in your chair. And it's not like that. It's not like we pray or we're really nosy and we want to know what's going on. They tend to just sort of let loose and, and just, just go with it, feel relaxed, you know. And that's. Yeah, obviously it does depend who's standing behind. But as long as you've got great energy about you and you're very personable, then they're more than happy to tell you about them themselves. Right.

I'll tell you why I think it's great. Firstly, I think there's something about being in a male only, you know, male barbers not to Say that women don't work in the barbers, but, you know, if it's kind of a group of men, it's just the same as having any bit like a whole man academy event where it's a group of guys and maybe you feel a bit more comfortable to talk about the things that are important to you. And interestingly, I think it was last year, one of the guys who owns a hairdresser's down in Brighton messaged me and he said, you know, can you give me some advice? I want to set up an event for men. So he held it in his barber's shop because it's that, you know, he closed it of an evening, he had a few beers and guys got together and did a mini kind of, you know, had a bit of that, a fitness talk and stuff. But I'm like, like we said before we start recording, it's. It's just the same as having a haircut. It's about an experience, isn't it?

Absolutely, absolutely. And it's just about allowing someone to feel comfortable. And by the time they've left that chair, the confidence that they leave with just after having a haircut or a shave or, you know, it all comes hand in hand. So you've got someone who walks into a barber shop, they don't really, they don't really know what they want to, what they want to do with their hair. They don't really understand terminology about hair, but they come and sit in the chair and they put all that trust in you to start with, you know, then you tell them where you want to, what direction you kind of want to take with their hair. I mean, a lot of people know where they want to go, however, but you've always got the odd people that don't know what they want, you know, so once you've kind of shown them that they can trust you with their hair, they automatically start opening up about other aspects of their life.

Yeah.

You know, so, yeah, I mean, I'm in a very fortunate position. And obviously in the book as well, I've added some of my clients stories in there so it can be more relatable to the person who's reading it. Oh, I've been through something like that. Oh, wow. I kind of understand that.

I was going to ask you, going through the book, I know there's was going to touch on the six pillars in a minute, but are there one or two kind of stories from clients that you'd happily share on the podcast that people would think would be either amusing or Helpful or both.

Well, not already in the book.

Yeah. Or ones you didn't put in the book.

I mean, there's loads. You didn't prep me for this one. Which one I was going to come together, come to the show with. Okay, what about them feeling unconfident and not being able to, to achieve things.

Or, or in fact, you can pick any story you want. How about that?

Okay, I'm gonna go with a story that, that's already in the book. And it's, it's. I see. Again, I'm about to call him a client. But he's not a client, he's a friend. You know, people then become friends and he's someone who's really, really inspired me. I met Stuart probably about four or five years ago. I've been working with charity called Staffer Soldiers where I'd go to the hospital and I'd start giving haircuts to some of the injured servicemen who were in this, this military hospital for men. I was for men and women, actually.

Yeah.

So they'd been injured. Injured doing service. Service or injured when they've come back from their tours. Most of them are amputees and these guys were, they've either lost a leg, they've lost arms, they've lost two legs and an arm, they've lost their sight, you know, and actually going to work with these guys really opened up eyes, you know, because it makes us realize how lucky we are. We, we've still got all limbs or, you know, we've got a day to day job where we can come home safely. Anyway, I met a guy called Stuart and he lost a leg. But if you go to this guy's Instagram, it's incredible. How he lost his leg is in the book. But if you go to this guy's Instagram, this guy is paddleboarding, he's cycling, he's running, he's swimming. I mean, I think he has a, has a leg for each type of sport he does. Stuart. And on speaking to Stuart, like the guy is so happy about, about life. He's, you know where you'd go home and you'd moan about having a bit of a crap day at work, you know, you, you'd look back at this guy's story. Hold on, this guy hasn't got a leg. But then you talk to Stuart and you're like, but how do you feel about not having a leg, Stefan? I'm lucky. You know, that guy hasn't got two legs and he hasn't got an eye. You know, look at that guy, that guy's lost both arms. At least I can still walk, you know, even though I've got a prosthetic leg, you know, I can still walk. So, I mean, just the positivity when you speak to Stuart. And I'll congratulate him now because he's just had a baby. Congratulations, Stuart. I really, really.

Is that his first baby?

This is fast. So, I mean, so he's still active in that sense as well. So losing the legs not stopped him. Well done. Congratulations. But, yeah, just sort of listening to him and listening to his story saying that he wasn't going to let losing a leg define. Define who he was. You know, he was still going to be able to go out there and push to whatever he wanted to achieve. He was still going to go out there and open his business with. Alongside his fiance. He was still going to go out there and create this positive energy. And even when you just speak to him, the positive vibes that you get from him is just incredible, you know, And I really, really respect the guy because, I mean, we still talk, talk now. And when he said he would be part of. He'll be happy to put his story in the book, I was amazing, man. Like, seriously appreciate this. I couldn't thank you enough.

He sounds like a good guy.

He is a really, really good guy. So he's moved a little. He's moved out of London now, so I probably won't be able to see him as often as I. As I used to. But, yeah, he's such a great guy. And just listening to his story and reading about his story, a guy with one leg who's achieving all sorts of achievements in life, you know, hats off to him. And you carry on, and you carry on sort of spreading all this positivity around the world.

It sounds, it sounds similar to when I interviewed Danny Crates, who's a Paralympic gold medalist and a mate of mine. And, you know, he. He lost an arm in a car accident. It was abroad as well, which always, I think, you know, I had a car accident abroad. And it's a weird feeling because you just. You just want to go home. But he then went on to, you know, win Paralympic gold medals, set world records, etc. And, you know, with his podcast, it was one of those that, like we say, you can't have, you know, you can't help what happens to you, but you can help how you react to it.

Of course, of course. I always believe that we have to use our past as fuel to our fire to then progress and Move forward and continue to grow. You know, sometimes we are dealt really, really bad hands and it's what we do with that hand that allows us to progress and move forward and achieve great new heights. We can either let that completely tear us down and bring us completely down or we move forward from it.

You know, all comes down to mindset, doesn't it?

Exactly.

You know, that's one of the big things I know you speak about in your book. Well, let's jump into. I know we said about six pillars that help men find greatness and we always say, you know, greatness is what you consider great because, you know, great for one person is a massive house and five cars and etc. Another person's greatness is I work two days a week and I spend most of time with my family and go camping. So it's a, it's a mixture. But you've got health, inspiration, self care, mindset, achievements, personality. What about yourself? What works for you with health, keeping your health on track?

Well, I'm missing the gyms big time, but as long as we're, we're doing something. So I, at the moment I'm running a lot. I've been trying to wake up early, really early in the morning and get my runs out of the way. So I've got the rest of the day to work on, whatever I know, whatever else I need to work on. I don't have many weights or anything. So I also, during the first lockdown I got really into cycling and I own two bikes now when I didn't own any at the point, at that point. So running and cycling is something I really, really got into recently. Doing press ups, your press ups, your sit ups, your normal calisthenic types of things, your pull ups, they really, really help. So as long as you're doing at least an hour's exercise a day, that will set your day up nicely and then you crack on the rest of it.

It's very important. And that's one of the big things. We spoke to a guy called Patrick who's a bodybuilder. I mean, he has a normal job as well, but a bodybuilder. He's got an incredible physique, but he was like, it has been so hard, especially for guys like that, that, you know, they need the weights. It's not just about fitness, it's about developing muscle, building muscle. And he just said that's one of the big things for him. You know, not having the gyms open has been a real deflating. Yeah, literally Deflating in both senses because it felt. I'm lucky. We've got a big home gym here, so we've got, you know, Olympic barbells and all the different machines and everything.

Amazing.

But do you know what? It's still not the same having a home gym as it is going to the gym, because not having people around you. And it's not that you're competing with other people, but you feed off other people's energy.

Absolutely.

When you're in there on your own, it's easy to get distracted and find yourself, you know, not quite putting the same effort in. So, you know, it's. I'm sure a lot of people can't wait for the gyms to be, to be open again. Well, let's talk about inspiration. Who's inspired you in your life?

A lot of people. Again, I told you I was lucky because I have so many people who sit in my chair and just the conversations that you have with ordinary people.

Yeah.

Who tell you about how far they've come, where they've, where they started in life and what they're achieving to date, that is, you know, I get to hear some stories that other people would never get to hear, you know, and people open up to me as well as. I mean, if I was supposed to be inspired by someone in the hair, hairdressing industry, probably be Dar Sassoon and what he created back in the day. I mean, he was a massive icon in the hairdresser's world and he still is. And he was someone who was very into his mindset, very into his yoga, very into his health as well. And he created a brand that's still going today. Right. And I always thought about, you get so many of these famous hairdressers around, like John Frieda, Vidal Sassoon, Nikki Clark. And I kind of wanted to create, recreate what women's hairdressers have into the men's world. You know, a really sort of high end luxury gentleman's grooming salon where men can go to. It kind of becomes like a bit of a members club, you know, and people can just come and hang out, have a cigar, have a whiskey, come for a haircut, come for a good chat, you know. And it's also one thing I say about. So I just took, I took up golf in the first lockdown. And they say all business meetings are done on a golf course. Right. Someone said that to me once and I was like, actually, hold on, you haven't been to my barbershop. Because the amount of people that connect within my barbershop and then go on to connect outside of my barbershop. And then, you know, they. They bring businesses together, they bring collaborations together. And then. And then what. What then comes on from there, you know, is pretty. It's pretty special. And then I get clients sat in my chair. Oh, how's John doing? And I met him here last time during your opening or your party or whatever, or last time I was getting a haircut. So it's good that my clients do connect within the chair. And everyone bounces off each other.

Yeah.

You know, as long as you've got your staff with the right energy and the right mindset and the right mentality, you know, the clients tend to just bounce off each other. And you've got three barbers laughing with free clients in the chair, laughing amongst each other's. Amongst each other too, you know, so that's the vibe and that's the energy that we try and keep within the store throughout.

So it sounds good. And you know what? It sounds like one of the things that I think a lot of guys are missing at the moment is the energy of spending time with a group of other guys. And whether that be just working or whether it be talking bollocks and just having a laugh, you know, I've found myself. I know on. It was literally the Thursday before the first lockdown that we had our last Wholeman Academy dinner in Covent Garden. I think there was 14 guys all went out for dinner. We had burgers and beers and, you know, a few glasses of something. But you had a bloody good laugh. You know, a good few hours of connecting with other guys who you didn't know from different sectors. And since then, that's all been lost. So, yeah, I, you know, it's. I always think it's. It's kind of priceless to get unsurprising, get guys together to talk. I don't know. That's been an idea in there somewhere.

Yeah, completely. I mean, don't worry when we can reopen again. And I want to host a few more events and I'm more than happy. Host the whole Man Academy event as well in there. So if you're interested, I'll tell you.

Why that'd be great. Because again, it's about, you know, we've had them at Soho House, we've had them at South Place Hotel, we've had them at Geese and Hawks. And that. That's meant there. It sounds harsh, but I've always said I don't want it to be like a Hotel conference room where it's like wanky carpet and few chairs put round. It ends up being, you know, geese and hawks. The, the event when David Gandhi spoke, I think we had 65 guys in the room. Everybody had had cocktails one, the other ones we had Savile Row gin, provided the drinks. And you know, it was just, it was an evening out, not just guys sitting together in a room. So of course it's a big yes, thumbs up for me on that one. What about yourself? You know, how would you describe for a guy how he can look, you know, look after himself with self care? What would you, what would you bring under that as the umbrella of that?

Okay, so during this time especially, I mean, there hasn't been any barbers open, although when barbers are open, we all need, we all should have a routine, you know, a morning routine and a night routine. And look, we all know guys are probably the worst for this. We're the worst for exfoliating our face moisture, moisturizing our skin. We're the worst of putting products on ourselves. So especially during these times. And you'll find that product sales have gone risen massively during this time because people haven't had the accessibility of a barbershop. So they've tried to take a little bit more care at home, They've had a little bit more time on their hands as well. So I mean, definitely a little bit of self care. And it states this in the book, to find a decent face cleanser, a decent moisturizer, a decent exfoliator. They're the bare bones, bare basics. You know, every one should be doing this to remove dead skin, to clean the face, you know, to remove blackheads from our face and to just genuinely feel a little bit more confident and a little bit cleaner and fresher. Anyway, you know, although we're not interacting with people at the moment, we are still doing video calls like yourself. You look like you've got a pretty good routine there anyway, Anthony. So just. So just by doing those basics in the morning does make us feel a little bit better about going on camera and speaking to people, you know, and although we aren't seeing people face to face, you'll be surprised how much is noticed on the camera. Right?

I bet.

So, yeah. So just a basic routine every morning and then the basic routine in the evening before we go to bed is always recommended, obviously, finding the skin, finding the right products that are right for your skin. So always try and do a little bit of research about your own skin, whether it's oily whether it's greasy, whether it's very dry, and try and buy products according accordingly to that. Bearing in mind, you're going to be wearing these products on your face very regularly. Um, so try not to be too cheap with it. You might find something that completely works for you and it's complete. It's a really sort of cheap brand, which is fine. And if that works, it works. But just try and spend a little bit more money on your face and your skin.

Yeah.

And you'll. You'll reap the benefits a lot more.

It's an important point and also fun of going back to. In fact, again, I've just written about this, or had written about this for the whole Man Academy letter was your story of you with the chemicals that, you know, you're putting onto your skin. And I know in the book it says, you know, your skin is your largest organ. And I said, obviously you can put your own innuendos there about what is your largest organ. But it's one of those things where, you know, I find that now, I used to buy products just because they were, quite frankly, because they were cheap. And now I having a partner who's a nutritionist who knows a lot about how important what you put on your skin and absorbing it to now try and get products that are organic or have got less shit in them, basically.

Yeah.

What's it like for yourself with. Trying to. Because each guy that comes in, he's different. So you're trying to understand when you're trying to recommend things to them.

So you kind of. We always just analyze what skin they've got. We've got various products that we sell in the salon that are appropriate for each type of skin. So we always analyze what skin they've got. I've had my barber's trained by a beautician and she's taught us how to do various different facials and to read what's going on with someone's skin, you know, so we always check the skin for them and if someone asks us for advice, we always give them advice anyway, you know, and we advise them on what is best to use for their skin. That's probably a good sign of your barber, if you can go to a barbershop and you ask them what sort of skin they have, you have, and what products are best for that type of skin. That's always a good telltale sign whether, you know, if the person knows what he's talking about, they're going to glaze over. Yeah, yeah. So always don't be afraid to ask your barber or ask the person who's doing your hair, you know. Yeah. Again, they should be trained in these sort of, these side of things as well.

It's an important point. And then that I had a couple.

Ask your partner because women tend to know a lot more about skin.

Yeah, I just. It's a lot easier in life if you just do whatever your partner tells you to. Be honest. Then your hashtag winning. Talk to us about dry shave and wet shave. And now I was gonna say what's the difference? But I know that would sound stupid and obvious. But you know, for the average guy, if you had to sum up, how do you go about doing a dry shave, wet shave, and what you should be doing?

Okay, I wouldn't recommend doing a shave with a normal razor. Whether it be a Gillette razor. I wouldn't recommend doing it dry. When someone says dry shave, that would be with a clipper and you're trimming the beard or you're trimming the, the beard down to a stubble. A dry shave should be with a clipper only. Yeah, Okay. I wouldn't pick up a Mac Free or a Gillette Skin Protection Guard and start shaving your face without any water or any saving cream whatsoever. So just, just bear in mind when you're doing a dry shave, it should be with a clipper only. You always need to prep and moisturize the skin, especially when doing a shave of a razor. So I don't recommend dry shaves with your normal Gillette razor. That's.

When you're doing a wet shave, is it? I know like when you're, when someone comes in and you're putting like a hot, like hot flannel, a hot towel on their face. That's. Am I being distributed by. To kind of soften up that, Soften up the skin, soften up the bristles.

So that softens the hair, softens the skin and opens up all the pores. So again, when it, when you're coming to shave, when you shave yourself, always look in the mirror and look at what direction your hair is growing. If you've got sensitive skin, then always try and follow the grain. If you've got skin that's a little bit more resilient, then you can afford to kind of go both directions. I mean, those of you who have shaved for quite a while, you tend to know your grain, the grain of your hair and what direction it's sort of laying in and whether or not you can achieve a really, really close shave by going against it or not, some people have very sensitive skin. I'm one of those people. So I tend to just follow the grain. You can get really bad in growing hairs if you tend to go against it too much and then you get irritation and, and shaving rash. So know your skin that you're in.

Know your skin. And I guess for a lot of guys, maybe they hadn't given it much thought, but you know, it's. The older I get, as I get a spider come down the screen, the, the older I get, the, the more I notice the little wrinkles and the gray hairs and things and maybe realize that, you know, doing whatever I can might make a, might make a difference, to be honest. Now let me talk about famous people coming in to have you work your magic on them. Are there any of the guys that have come in that you felt slightly starstruck by just because they're not either high profile hero type person for you?

Do you know what? I try not to get starstruck and I don't. Just, just because at the end of the day they don't want. The majority of the celebrities that do come in. They don't want all the fuss or they don't want to, you know, they're normal people at the end of the day. So you, at the same time, you kind of have to treat them like you would any, any normal client. There was once when I was, I was slightly younger and I was, I was, I was working for Dolce and Gabbana at the time because I used to head up their barbershop in the, in the store. And not that he came in for a haircut, but he walked in the store and I was like, oh my God, this is quite a big deal. Samuel Jackson, right? He walked in the store and he just sat there with his pango hat on. I was like, Samuel Jackson. And you know, he's one of the most iconic actors out there, you know, and I'm sure he's had gone through his own sort of episodes of mental health as well. So to be where he is and to have starred in the films that he's been in was, was pretty, pretty epic.

Cool character.

He is a very, very cool character once. And I also cut Robert, Robert Roberto for me. Bobby Firmino's hair.

Yes.

Sorry. And being a massive Liverpool fan, I was a little bit hyped and a bit excited about that, but yeah, well.

When can I ask you when someone's a lovely guy, when someone like Bobby Firmino comes in, does he tell you what he wants or so. Or do you be like, do you make your suggestions of. Because especially some of their crazy haircuts, it can co.

It can totally depend. You know, sometimes they want. They want something completely different, or sometimes they just want what they've currently got. You know, they're happy with the style that they've got, but they just want you to recreate it and put the shape in. So it completely depends. I mean, Bobby Firmino is a. That was probably about four years ago. He was pretty flexible. He. He wanted me to sort of create my own style. But then again, his sides were really short, so there's only so much you can do with the sides. And then he didn't want to lose too much length on the top, so again, it's only so much you can do with that. So at the time, he kind of let me get up to my own devices, but there wasn't really much, essentially, of a restyle you could do at that moment in time. So, yeah, it depends what they come in with, too.

Yeah.

You know, some guys come in with a. An article of a mag on a magazine, and they point out a picture, and then you're like, all right, okay. We kind of have to be a little bit realistic here. You don't have the length or you don't have the. The style or the type of hair that you want to try and recreate. Yeah. A lot of people think it's as easy as looking at a picture on a magazine and recreating that. If they don't have that type of hair or that face structure or, you know, I can't turn you into David Beckham. So you have to be completely subtle and honest with them as well. So. And they understand that, you know, so it's about recreating the closest version to what they want. What about.

Hair disasters? Have you ever done any where you then think, this isn't going very well?

Not really. Not that I can remember, no.

Good.

I mean, one thing we are ethos in the store. We always listen to the client.

Yeah.

You know, we probably spend about 10, 15 minutes with the client before we've even picked up the scissors. Finding about them, finding out about their morning routine, how much time they spend on their hair. Do they ride a bike to work? Do they use a hairdryer? Do they want to use prop products? You know, if all of the. The answers to the above were no, then we're gonna have to create something that's really simple for them to achieve. If they're not going to be putting product in it. They're not going to be using a hair dryer. They wear a helmet every day to ride to work, you know. You know, there's all these little aspects that we have to incorporate into their daily routine and if it doesn't work, we have to be completely honest with them about it. You know, there's no point in promising something that that's not going to be, they're not going to be able to achieve at home themselves.

I was just gonna ask, so probably the nicest even for me, you know, I'm lucky to, to have fairly long hair and I've still got all my hair like my dad has who's you know, 660, 69 now. But I just can never be asked to use a fucking hair dryer in the mornings. And my partner is always like, just get the hair dryer out and just, it will look so much better. So I just, I never really know. I always end up doing the front and the back stays a bit wet and limp. So help a guy out. What, what should guys be doing? What are the tips with a hair dryer?

Hair dryers, I mean hair dryers make it a lot smoother. If you want to create, if you want to create a bit more volume and you want a long last, a longer lasting style, then the hair dryer is your friend, you know. But people, I mean guys especially get a little bit put off by using the hair dryer. Do you own a hair dryer? No, I don't, but my wife or my girlfriend does. Well, you're going to start using it from now on. You know, some, some are completely like, no, don't even, don't even talk to me about a hair dryer. Fine. We have to work with what you, what your daily routine is. And some are completely open to start using hair dryers, you know, and they want to start using them and they want to start looking better and feeling better and, and having a longer lasting sort of shape in the hat. So you know, I mean my hair is really, really short so I tend to not use a hairdryer. But there's guys of your type of length hair who kind of do need to use a hair dryer one to keep it in place. You will get a longer lasting style if you keep it in place and it will look smoother and sleeper. So again, it's all time.

You've sold it.

How much time you've got in the morning? Right? Yeah, don't worry mate.

As we're talking about it also, do you know one thing I realize is, you know, with lockdown for myself and other guys, I'm sure, who maybe feel like. Because you haven't been going out very much, you haven't been. You know, sometimes I'm like, God, I wouldn't go out like this. But because you're just at home working on a computer all day, apart from the Zoom Call, no one sees you. So, you know, even. Even this weekend, I'm going out, and I will make sure my shoes are clean, my jeans haven't got mud on them from, you know, letting the chickens out. You know, your shirt is ironed, you've shaved, and you've done your hair. So that's one of the big things about working from home. It's so easy to kind of let yourself go a bit.

Of course, I've found that I've been wearing sort of a lot more loungewear. You know, I haven't been going out, and I've been putting hats on just because I can't be bothered to do my hair in the morning. But, you know, you know, it actually does make such a difference on your day when you actually wake up, you. You put something nicer on. Yeah, you actually do put some product in your hair. You feel better, you know, I mean, you wouldn't. You wouldn't want to come onto a Zoom Call, even though you're not face to face in person. You wouldn't want to come on to Zoom Call without putting cream or washing your face or. And these little things, although I might not notice it on the actual Zoom call, you notice it within, you know, and it does make you feel better, and it makes your videos come out better, and it makes, you know, it's these little. Little habits that create more of a. More of an effect.

We're going to talk about the little habits, but you know what it was. I talked to a friend of mine the other day because he said, oh, he wouldn't want to do, you know, the podcast and stuff on. On. On camera. And I said, well, he's spending time on camera to his colleagues. But his example was with the David Gandhi podcast. We've had, I think, nearly 10,000 views of that on. On YouTube. So he's like, you know, you've had 10,000 people have probably analyzed what you've. What you've looked like. And actually one guy messaged the other day saying, who that guy on the right looks like he's got Essex veneers because of my teeth. And I was like, no, no, they're my teeth. They're just they're just well looked after, to be honest.

Yeah, good. It just shows that some people do notice.

You start, start to wonder what else they're looking at. But you mentioned about morning routine and I know you've read Miracle Morning, which I have as well.

Yeah, and I love that.

Oh, it's a great book. I'm just finishing recording an online course which part of that is about developing your own morning routine. But I just wonder for you, what, what does your morning routine look like?

So it is pretty much sabers. That comes in the miracle morning. So I wake up again, put my alarm clock on the other side of the room. So I do get up. I'm not a morning person, I'm not going to lie to you. So trying to build that habit into your daily routine is tough. And so it savers, isn't it? It's scribing. So I get up and I write. Yeah, I can write about anything, you know, write about my day, what I've got planned in the day, what happened the night before. I tend to write in the evenings as well because once you've completed your day, you know you've got more stuff to add when you write down.

Yeah.

So savers, you caught me up in this. So savers. So I write. So that's scribing. Meditation, Meditation for sure. So I try and do at least 10 minutes to 20 minutes meditation, sometimes 10 minutes in the morning, sometimes 10 minutes in the evenings and that you'll find that in my book as well. So meditation, exercise, so important, you know, that sets you up for the rest of your day. It also wakes you up, you know, six o' clock in the morning you go for a run. Don't get me wrong, during this time I haven't been waking up at 6 every day. Sometimes it's 7:30, sometimes it's 8. But the minute you go for a run, you're awake, you know, and by the time you've come back, I come back and I do some, do a little bit of yoga. My girlfriend bought me this feet up for Christmas. It looks like a little bit of a toilet, but a pretty toilet. But it helps you do handstands and build your core strength. So you can do handstands and more sort of planks as well. So that's a really, really good tool that I've been using. I love it. So thank you, Jasmine. So scribing, exercise, cold showers, meditation. Do you know what? I haven't been doing cold showers, I can't take them. But what I have been doing I've been going to cryotherapy.

Wow, brilliant.

Yeah, so that's been my cold shower. So after a run, I've been trying to go there once or twice a week in London cryo. And they're amazing. Like they're really, really cool in there and they look after you and, and it's just a lovely place where you can go and go and sit in a sauna during this time as well.

Because I didn't even know that existed week ago. I know what they are, but I didn't realize they were that accessible. So talk me through. Do you book in for like a five minute, one minute session like, like you would with a sunbed.

So the cryo is a maximum of three minutes. I wouldn't want to do any longer in there. It's meant to be a lot more beneficial than an actual cold shower because it really does penetrate the skin. Definitely wear boxer shorts when you go in there because I made a mistake of not wearing box shorts the first time. It was cold. But yeah, it really, really does penetrate the skin. And I was having a little bit of trouble sleeping at night and you know, I started doing that. That's it. I'm out cold at the end of the night. So. And then, so you've got best of both worlds. You go three minutes in a cryo and then you go into, you do 25 or 45 minutes into it and then in a sauna. And it's just incredible. Like it's one thing I've really missed during this time is going to a gym in a natural sauna. Even when the gyms could reopen, the saunas couldn't. You know, so it's a personal sauna. You put your meditation music on in there or you put a podcast in for 25 or 45 minutes and off you go. Yeah, and especially during this time, it's been, it's been heaven for me. Like I absolutely love that place at the moment. So, yeah, I don't do cold showers. I'm a little bit of, how can I say this? I'm. I'm a little bit sensitive to cold water. But I've got good friends of mine who go lake swimming and I look at them and I admire them so much because they'll go in there minus God knows, and they'll just go for a quick swim. I have promised them that I will do it with them one day. So I will. But I've been slowly prepping myself, doing the cryotherapy. Hopefully I'll be completely ready for crap. Cold open water swimming scenes.

I'm impressed though, because it's one of those things that, like you said, finding what works for you, especially in the mornings. For me it's cold showers and also being adaptable because a. We've got little kids so some nights they've kept us awake all night and you have to get up really early in the morning. But yeah, just trying to get on a roughly regular routine of doing those things makes a big difference to your productivity.

Absolutely.

What about with you getting back into, you know, when the shop reopens? What's it like for you with trying to, I guess when you've got lots of clients, keep every. Get everybody in because everybody wants to come in at once, I guess.

I mean it's a first come, first serve basis. People know that, people know that we're super busy. We've got an online booking system so people can just go on and check availability and get themselves booked in. Yeah, a few people are a little bit annoyed that they can't get in on the first week, but you snooze, you lose and stuff. So I've got a cancellation list going on. So people that do want to come in on the first week, to be fair, like before COVID we always did appointments and booking systems. So that's nothing new. We, we always had a very clean and tidy store. So that's nothing new either. And we've never had too many people in the store at any one time. So with all these Covid restrictions or anything, we haven't had to change too much.

Good.

You know, apart from having masks, masks and, and, and alcohol scattered around the store, there's not much else we've had to change. We've had to extend appointments slightly so we can clean up after each client and wipe everything down. But apart from that, not much has really changed. People come in, they wear masks and stuff like that.

As normal as possible.

As normal as possible. And there's never really a queue of people waiting, you know, because they've all got their allocated time slots. So.

And you said there's. I was hoping you meant there's alcohol all around the store because you can have a couple of beers and a glass of wine.

So there's also that alcohol around the store too, so people can have a couple of whiskeys, a couple of beers and. Yeah, we've, we've just teamed up with a new brand called Epicurean and they have loads of different and stuff. So they're going to be shipping in all these new arrows when we reopen. And it's like a members club type of thing. So if any of my clients want to sign up to it and get these sent to their house, then they're more than able to as well. So it's all about collaborating with brands and local area. So, yeah, completely.

Oh, well, look, that sounds. It's great. And I know as soon as I can, when you've got a space, I'll have to come and have a. Have a coffee and a man hug with you at some point.

Absolutely. When you're ready, mate. No problem at all.

Well, I'm gonna let you go, but we'll put all in the show. Notes, the links to the book. And I know Mr. Gandhi shared on his Instagram this week.

Yes, he did. Thank you, David. I appreciate that.

Always helps when you've got a million followers. It doesn't hurt at all. And also, yeah, just to say thanks for coming on the pod, because you're the first guy we've had on to come and talk about men's grooming. It's something I've been wanting to kind of get onto. So it's been good for you to answer all my curveball questions, basically.

No problem. So these are all directed for you?

Yeah. Basically, the reason I started the podcast was to talk about myself and, you know, further my own standings in life by learning all the things I need to from the people that know what I want to know. So we're getting it. As we know you surround yourself with brilliant people.

Amazing. Exactly.

Well, I will let you go, but I appreciate all your time and we will speak to you soon.