EP088 - CHEVY ROUGH - ROUND 2 - MEN AND PERFORMANCE | WHOLE MAN ACADEMY

Whole Man Academy. Because the world needs strong men. Whole Man Academy is changing the game for men around the world. It's for guys who want to live an epic life of fun and adventure. No matter what we believe, deep down, all men want to go on their own hero's journey to becoming resilient, confident, fearless and fulfilled. Listening to be inspired by guys who don't settle for living a life of mediocrity.

This.

This is your call to action and call to adventure.

Are you ready?

So this is the Whole Man Academy podcast, episode 88. My guest today is a great guy, Chevy Ralph, which some of you will know from a previous podcast over a year ago. Now he's a performance and wellbeing coach. We're going to talk all things performance, productivity, mental and physical health, breath and energy control, the behavior change and stress management and God knows what else. Shev, how are you doing and where are you, mate?

I am. I'm really well, like, super excited to be back on again. Thank you so much. Also, I haven't really done many podcasts in the last year or so. I kind of stepped away. So it's just really great to have a conversation again. It's always a good chat with yourself as well, sir. So thank you for having me where I'm in the world. So since our last. Last podcast, I have moved from the joys of South London to the Cotswolds. So we're in a lovely little village called Burford, which is just ridiculous and pretty and lovely, and we live in a lovely house now and got greenery around us.

So you realize you're five minutes, hashtag blessed.

Pardon? You are. Because I saw you. I think actually last time I saw you, you were lurking around a service station car park. Like those dodgy transactions that were going on between cars as well, I think.

Yeah, we were. We were handing over a child to send him to London for a few days. Thankfully, he's our own. But. But okay, so what is it like moving from? Because that's basically, you know, what I did. Moved from South London to, you know, we're probably about 15, 20 minutes drive from you. But what was that? What prompted it? We're in Chipping Norton.

Oh, yeah. Jesus. Yeah, Just down the road. Yeah. 100%. Why? Okay. We need to hang out. Okay, yeah, we'll talk about that. What was it like to make the move? Not scary. Like, really felt like the right time in life. Like, absolutely the right time. It's saying that I've been pushing for, personally within our marriage for A few years. Like, my wife knows that and I've wanted to make the transition, so I felt ready to do that. It's been, as I always say, you know, I, you know, I've lived with a level of, of. Of negative chatter for, for many years, you know, context with people who haven't done my background or, you know, lived with addiction for kind of like 15 years of my life. So, you know, dealing with a lot of anxieties and stuff like that. And what was great about moving out, I always make this joke that I don't like human beings. Right. And it really funny, like, and it's not like, you know, I struggled to walk into social environments with people. And what I've realized, it's not that I don't like human beings, it's just I just don't like a lot of them at once.

Right. Yeah.

You know, and I think the big thing about moving out here from a selfish, selfish point of view was that I just felt my internal chatter and my anxiety drop down a couple of notches because I wasn't stimulated by so much within a day.

Yeah.

You know, and then you can feel now when I go back to London, I can enjoy it as a tourist, but I can see that difference in me as I start to operate within the city and within that environment and how my body is upticked and just spending so much more energy just navigating this crazy environment that is a big city.

Yeah.

Do you know what?

I was back in London this weekend for three days and we went to Winter Wonderland in Hyde park, which obviously was mass, mass crowds and, and took the kids there and, you know, for a while before. And I was waiting for the family to arrive because I'd been on a night out down in, down in Kent. So I was meeting there and I was standing outside the Hard Rock Hotel and it was just hustle and bustle and I was just like, wow, it's such a world away from living in the countryside where, you know, you see a few people every day and the odd horse and things like that. And I'm the same. You need to. I love going back to London, but after a couple of days of it, I like to get back out.

Yeah. I talk about wellbeing from a few different perspectives. And it's like you've got physical, well, being, mental wellbeing, which was the two physiology, psychology. Right. Like the two in sync with me, but. And then you talk about environmental, well being. Right. Like. And I'm not necessarily talking about, you know, plastic and the oceans and so forth, which is massively important. That's just not, not, not, not the soapbox I'm on. But, you know, for me, you know what, you know what happens when you walk into a church? You whisper, right? What happens when you walk down a dark alley? You become alert, right? What happens when I step into my office and I sit in front of this screen? I'm focused to work. But what happens if I try and open my laptop on my bed? I'm just a little bit more like, this is sleeping place, right? Like, environment dictates behavior. And what was really interesting for me is I went to Bristol to work with a client a few weeks ago, and I'm like, I'm a North London boy, right? Like an M1 boy, born and raised, Islington. And Islington isn't what it used to be. It used to be just an extension of Hackney and a really crap place to be bought up. And it was, you know, getting mugged every week as a kid. So I know how to walk. You know, you might see a little bit more of a bop in my step when I'm rolling around London, right? Like, that's just the Londoner in me and, you know, the North London boy comes out in me. So I've never been scared of walking around any parts of London at any time of night. I've just. It's fine. But I went to Bristol a few weeks ago. I stayed the night over there and I went to go see James Bond and I saw a late showing and I came out at 11:30 and I had to walk back to the airbnb at about 11:30 at night through Bristol City Center. And it was funny. Like, I was. So I was, I think. And I used the word. Like I was scared.

Yeah.

You know, like I was really looking over my shoulder. I was like tweaking everything. Like, my body was in a real state of fear. And it's just because I, you know, I've stopped being used to operating in that environment. My body is now adapted to living, you know, with the gray. The gray hair brigade in Burford. Lovely. But it's just true. But you start to, wow. Like, my system is responding to this environment in a different way now. And it was just a really interesting experience. That.

That is one of those things that, I mean, funny, we talk about state of fear with how the whole country is at the moment where the media push the fear and the fear and the fear. But even on a personal level, it's the same for us. We want our Boys to go back to London. I mean, they're only little, you know, two and four, but to understand that the world isn't just fields and horses and, you know, sometimes you sit on a tube and it's packed and you've got all these bright lights flashing towards you. So it is one of those things, I think, for me, where the more guys I talk to on the podcast, some of them, if they haven't already, are like, I'd love to move out to the countryside for just a slightly quieter pace of life maybe, and get out to get out to see a bit of nature instead of just being, you know, in South London, North London, where it's just houses and cars and street lamps and wi fi. Killing, killing people slowly. Well, let's get on to. I know, funny enough, when we spoke last time, you know, over a year ago now, and we spoke about working from home and it's funny how a lot of people were like, oh, it's just a short term thing. And I was like, if you, if you bother to read enough books on how governments work, it was as if they were always pushing for something like this. And of course now in this last week, people have been told if they can, they can work from home again. What's your experience like of the people you've worked with and for yourself from working from home? Because it's different if you're in the countryside and you've got fields around you than if you're in a small, you know, rooming South London.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the thing, right? I think that's the challenge is it's, you know, even looking at wellbeing as a whole is, is everyone's looking for a one size fits all solution, right? Even if we just simply look at nutrition, right? Everyone's looking for the one diet that's going to work well, hey, guess what, right? Intermittent fasting might work for you over there, you know, high fat might work for you over there, or a heavy carb diet might work for you over there. Like, it's. The thing is what are you going to adhere to? That's the most important thing, right within it. But it's. And I think that's the thing with people saying to me, what have we seen with working from home trends? Is that everyone is different, right? Everyone has different unique challenges, everyone operates in a different way. And I think the companies that are getting it right are the ones that are trying to find a range of solutions and options that are not only going to support the Diverse workforce that they have, but also the business needs as well, right? I think this is the thing that we've forgotten is that's a business. It has needs. It's paying you to do a job. It is asking certain things from you, and it wants to hit those. It's like kind of this. This juggling act. But I think that, you know, I think genuinely it's been. People have been in one or two, literally one or two camps, right? They either love it or they hate it. And. And I think a lot of that comes from time in life that you're at, right? Like, a lot of, you know, people have really. And a lot look at men, right? Like, a lot of men have really loved the opportunity to be able to lose the commute and spend more time with their kids. Like, I've heard consistent stories of dads who have been able to spend their commute time teaching their kids how to ride a bike. How amazing is that, right? Super dope that, like, fathers and parents are more present at home and are there, but, you know, are they lucky enough to better have the space in the house to create the right kind of office environment, Right? Like, this is it. So then we kind of look at this maybe this, this, this, you know, financial divide, right? Like those who. The haves and the haves nots kind of thing, right? There's other dads who are like, jesus Christ, my house is like, forget the blasphemy. Sorry, guys. But, you know, like, wow, like, this is really tough working from home. And I think that's exposed a lot of guys as well. Like, there are the guys who. Who used work as a. It was their drug, right? Like, and it's also their excuse to get out the house, you know, like, oh, I've got to go work. I've got to earn money. I've got to be at the house. But actually it's because they just found it really hard to be dads at home.

That was one of the things I also, when talking to some of the guys through the whole man academy, you know, going to work gave them the structure that being at home didn't. Because you're not having to get a train and you're not having to do, you know, you haven't got quite the same rigid time frame. And I agree. I think some of the guys said, I enjoy getting out the house because when they came home, they had the nice feeling of coming back into the house. You know, whether you live on your own or whether you've got kids. And yeah, having that where when you're at home all the time, you lose the sense of going out to work and coming home and having a relaxing.

And it's an identity thing. Like, people want to, you know, it's just who we are, right? Like, I don't want to be like, you know, some people very much struggle to be parents and be fathers or be in a family. Like, they still just want to, you know, be rolling around as a 20 year old doing whatever. And you get, you kind of get to step away. Like there's nothing wrong. Like, we do these things for selfish, selfish and selfless reasons. It's okay to feel like that, like it's totally normal. But again, from a very practical point of view, we, you know, we're all trying to be more free in life, right? We want more freedom, but we forget that there's a lot of freedom within structure. So then kind of going back when I was working with people in the last year, it's understanding that, you know, one of the reasons that you're struggling to switch off or switch on is because you've lost that process of getting dressed in the morning, stepping out your front door, buying your coffee at the train station, getting on the train, reading the book, listening to the podcast, getting off the train, walking past that shop that you see every day where you're looking in the wind. Like every little. All these little cues to set you up for the day. And they're also. Everyone's moaning about the commute. But actually that's that there's very rare times that we have to let the brain process the day because we're constantly stimulated. So it was kind of like, yeah, like your brain is in the upside down, your body is in the upside down. You know, the stranger things, right? Like, the upside down. Like, that's just what's happened. So, you know, I think. But so it's working with you. Everyone's just been different, you know, and like I said, a lot of people have obviously struggled with the human connection side of things. Like, I have hated becoming an online coach. Like, I, you know, despised it. Like, I could probably be earning a lot more money right now. Everyone's in need of my services. My business is doing average because I just didn't want to do more stuff online because I missed that human interaction. And we already lived in an isolated world. We already lived in a lonely world. That was a problem before COVID So again, some people depending on their friendship circles and so forth, like, you know, God, get me back in the office. I just Want to talk to human beings.

Yeah. I do think that's one of the big things of, you know, people forget that when they're going to an office or they're getting out. It makes them firstly, probably take care of their appearance slightly more because, you know, we saw people saying, oh, I've just pretty much gone from laptop or, you know, from bed to coffee to laptop, and they're not kind of. Whereas when you go out and you're seeing people in the flesh, it's a different kind of feeling of taking care of yourself. But also, you know, both of us do talks for companies, and I know we joked when I was emailing and saying, you know, I've had it where you're talking to a company, but you're just sitting in your spare room and you're looking at a screen for 45 minutes and just talking. And halfway through, the little voices in your head, like, I bet there's no one fucking there. They've gone. There's no one there. So it's such a. It's such a strange feeling where, like you say, for me, sitting in front of an audience, you know, where you can see them, and I nearly said, feel them and touch them, but that's. That's another thing. But it's. You get the energy from people that you just can't get online.

Have you felt that we're doing your stuff 110%. Like, 110%. Definitely. You know, I think definitely in those first kind of few cycles of lockdown, like the first few months of lockdown, definitely up to six or seven months, it was because you're looking for validation in the talk, right? You're looking for confirmation. Am I hitting the mark? You're looking for the eyebrows being raised over there. You're looking for the person who's not checking their phone halfway through because that, you know, they're engaged in you. You're looking for the smiles, the raised eyebrows that. Cause you know, whether you're on cue, you know, and you're connecting with that audience. Right. Um. And so when you remove that, you're absolutely right. Like, you're just. You're getting none of that. Those cues, none of that feedback. So your brain is just going into this kind of threat mode, this alert, like, what's going on? And suddenly your internal chatter is. You're not in a state of flow, right? Your torch is not. Your attention isn't on the content. Your internal torch, as it were, is on the negative. It's on the fear. And you're Having these two conversations, you're presenting and you're doubting everything that you're doing literally at the same time. And that was really tough. And I think that management of emotions, you know, 20% of the calories we consume go to our brain. We need energy to, to manage willpower, self control, willpower and self control. To put thoughts and feelings to the back of our head and manage those emotions. Right. And I think suddenly you're having to just churn through energy, just. And that's why we're all coming off those talks, just wiped and obliterated because our brains have just gone like, did I actually. What the hell? You know? And I, I did. And there was a couple of times, and I remember I walked down to the kitchen and my wife and she was like, how did that go? And I'm like, I have no idea how that just went. And sometimes I was presenting to a room. Like I remember a couple of clients, like 200, 253, 400 people in a room. And I'm like, I have no idea. But I think the adaption to that was learning to use. Get people more engaged through the chat function and also doing surveys, like feedback surveys. So at least I would know post thing. And then the final thing that I did was 7 out of 10. Like, did I get. Did. Would I rate myself a 7 out of 10 for the delivery of my content? Right. Yeah, I think I did a 7 out of 10 today. Does that make sense? And like, at least I could put my own validation on it. Like, I was like, that was a 7 out of 10 piece of work. Not an 8, not 9, not 10 out of 10. But I was like, I think I did 7 out of 10. I'm happy with that. So no matter what, that's cool.

That's a good one. And I think maybe a good lesson for the guys listening in life is like, you know, you can't always be 10 out of 10. And you know, it is exhausting. I know with Tony Robbins, and I've said this before, the first few events I went to of his, it was always about being in a peak state. Now there is a lot to be said for being in a peak state at certain times, but I don't want to be in a peak state when I'm trying to relax with the family and just do stuff. And he changed it to being a beautiful state. Understand that you can turn things on and off. And I know with the talks, one of the big things people have to be comfortable with is getting feedback and Sometimes it's not always good. And I'll tell you why it was great. One of the talks I did, I think there's about six different bits of feedback we got and five of them were positive. And the last one of the five was like, it was really good, simple advice that we can apply straight away and I can even teach it to my kids and what have you. And it was about me saying in general it was, you know, get better quality sleep, better quality nutrition, thinking better, you know, a couple of different things. And one guy said it was dangerous at best. Uh, it, uh, it didn't back it all up. Not everything was backed up with science. And I was like, all of, we basically said about, you know, being healthier, getting out more, et cetera, et cetera. So just remind you, you, you can probably, you know, the 80, 20 rule, you can probably keep 80% of people happy, but 20%, whatever you say.

Yeah, yeah, no, no, no. And I agree. And I think that's, you know, going back to them. There's a few things here we can talk about. It's super interesting. But I think, you know, firstly that that's, you know, we're never going to be, you know, 10 out of 10 is just unreachable, right? Like, and this is what a lot of work people, you know, whether it's high performance leaders or people who are struggling to get back to some kind of level of health and fitness and wellbeing and so forth, which is like, we've got to stop having this black and white kind of mentality about what success looks like. It's, you know, it's effort over outcome. As human beings, we so often, we just keep focusing on the outcome, outcome, outcome. It's got to be perfect, right? Like, are you crapping me that you're going to set yourself up for failure, right, like, or it's got to be, you know, it's got to be. And that seven out of 10 was always based on my effort. You know, did I prepare for it well? Did I give it the best effort that I could based on the variables of today, right? Like, whatever happened, it is, it's got to, you know, it's so, so important that we, you know, and like you say that I'm glad that Tony Robbins has changed from peak state to beautiful state because I think that's the thing, right? We're always like, it's like trying to chase, we're obtaining happiness all the time. Like, it's just rubbish, right? Like there's going to be highs and Lows, ups and downs.

It's like within my job, high without a.

Well, I thought, you know, my lot, you know, as, you know, right. I focus a lot on energy. That's a lot of my narrative is energy. So we talk a lot about burnout within that. And I'm like, you know, people say, oh, you know, how you know, but to avoid burnout. And I'm like, yeah, you know, that, that seems a pretty picture perfect thing. Like, I've burnt out twice in the last two years and I do this for a living.

Yeah.

You know, like burnout to me is part of the process. It's part of the learning curve. So actually when next time I burn out, instead of kicking the crap out of myself going, well, why can't I just be consistent and just think, well what, what have I learned this time? You know, and how can I keep improving my relationship with, with maybe, you know, increasing the time between burning out, but also just it as a natural rhythm. Right. Like, I give so much energy to certain phases of my life that at some point my body is going to need to put that energy back in the tank. You know, if you look at Olympians and they train for the Olympics, they go, they train for the Olympics and then they would take a considerable period, amount of time off afterwards that usually to help the system reset and put energy back in the tank again. And you could, do you define that as burnout or do you just find it as a natural rhythm of, you know, you spend energy and now you've got to recoup that energy. The feedback one is considered, how did that, how did that really make you feel deep down inside? What was the internal narrative?

I tell you what, it's really important that I think because I worked on my own mindset so much in the last five years or something like, you know, I'm a totally different person to the, the guy that spent the last year in the city. But I actually really now you welcome it because I laugh because whereas so much in life, people like, there's always going to be one person that doesn't like what you do. And I often say, you know, life isn't a competition to see how many people you can keep happy. So for me it was about like you say, if, if the majority of your feedback is people saying, hey, that was just what I needed and we're really going to find it useful. I think it's quite good to get the odd negative one because it just reminds you that, you know, there's always going to be someone out there that's like, no, didn't like it. And you're like, I'm okay with that.

It's always, yeah, no, and it's okay not to be okay with it as well, right? Like, and that's why I say to people, like, I think it's really easy, not easy. Like I get like when you, when you've done the work of like, you used to be able to not take feedback and now you're learning to take feedback. I think a lot of us say, like, oh, now I take feedback really well. Like, okay, let me make something really clear. Like I take feedback well on the outside, but on the inside I'm still struggling with the 20 year old, 25 year old me who like, as soon as you told me something shit, thought that I was like the crappiest thing on earth, right? Like I have to lean into feedback. Like, I'll tell you, as a coach, right, as someone whose job it is to give feedback and create objective feedback loops in people's lives, as someone who's constantly trying to be an apprentice and learn and develop and grow someone in a marriage, right, Like, I'm constantly on the practice of trying to take feedback, but sometimes it's fucking hard, you know? And one of the reasons that's the reasons I came off of social media is because social media is always a form of feedback, right? Like how many likes I get and how many comments and how many engagement, how many follows I get is feedback from the market whether my content is good or bad. Now it isn't whether it's good or bad, right? It's whether I can deliver it in the right way that the algorithms pick it up and I'm getting people's attention and so forth. It doesn't actually mean my content's crap, it just means I might not be good at delivering that content through that platform. I hated it because that feedback just tore me up.

You've mentioned social media is one of the things on my list to talk about because I noticed you had come off of it a while ago.

Thank you for checking in, by the way. I appreciate you.

Yeah, well, it was one of those things because then I was like, oh, he's chev, alright. And it's funny, is it? Because not as in, I thought, if he's, if he's come off social media, he must not be all right. For me, I'm like, if he's come off social media, he's fucking killing it. Because I would delete all social media if I could. And I'M Slayer. I remember getting a TikTok account and then I was like, fuck this. This is really. This is the worst of the worst. So I, you know, got rid of that. And of course we use social media for the whole man academy, but apart from that, I just got rid of it, you know, basically just, just let. Left it dormant. So, yeah, when I noticed that you did, I was up, just going to check in with Chev, but I noticed you were like, yeah, I'm off it.

Thanks. Yeah, it's been, it's been an interesting journey. I think that it's, you know, that's why I love hearing stories. You know, when I hear stories about like, you getting that feedback and then because you didn't focus on the five bits of good feedback, you focused on the sixth negative feedback, right? Like, and I still do that now, my feedback. So I'm like, why is that motherfucker giving me? Like, everyone else has given me four and a half out of five. They've given me four, four out of five. Like still four out of five. Or they've given me some very good constructive feedback and I'm still taking it on a negative, negative way. I'm like, seriously, like, I have to work on that. And like, for me, it's always a reminder how the brain will always hunt for the negative over the positive. So I think with me, what social media, what I realized over the. And again, there's nothing wrong with social media. There's nothing wrong with alcohol, there's nothing wrong with cocaine. These are just inanimate objects in some ways. But actually I take that a bit step further with social media. Let me talk about that in a second. But, you know, it's our use of them, right? Like it was. And that's the thing. I was always like, how am I using these things now? As an ex drug addict, social media just plays to these pathways that I've already created in my head. This need for social validation, right? Like this constant, like, need for dumping dopamine to my system. Like, it's just playing to the crackhead at me, for lack of a better phrase. But then I. So there was that element to it and I could just feel how much energy I was putting into a day creating content. And I was getting to the point, like, my social was getting good again at the beat, like the beginning a lot. Like, I was really, like, putting out good content. Followers were growing again. This was the second time that I used to have social a few years ago, as I shut down a few years ago, And I was rebuilding and things were going well, but I was looking at the energy cost, right? Like, it was to be consistent in that content was. I was spending a lot of energy on creativity and content development, right? Like, and that, that whole process, that system, you know, and I was trying to get to these Gary Vee levels of content, right? Like, you know, it's like this kind of consistent everyday posting. I was doing podcasts, returning that, writing blogs, like, the whole works. But even thinning that down to doing two or three posts in a week was taking up a lot of energy from me. And so then you look at, why have I got this, right? Because I don't like it. And here's the thing, you talk to 90% of coaches who are on social media or people within the wellbeing space, they'll turn around and go, I hate it. Honestly, like, how. You know, this, right, this thing we all say to each other is, I hate it, but I have to do it. Why? Because if I don't, I'm scared that I lose business, right? So that's what I was like. Like, oh, I won't be. I'll have no exposure and I won't lose business. Then I started to look at, actually, where do I get my business from? So I looked at the numbers and the data and started to assess that and how reliant I was on social. But then I was like, you know what? In life, you've got to lean into the things that make you uncomfortable. So I was like, if this makes me uncomfortable, then why not use this as something to lean into and see if I can make my business good without it? Because, hey, I used to do sales of 15, 13 years, and guess what? I used to just pick up the phone and build old school, right? So I kind of thought, actually, that's the challenge, right? Like, that's the challenge. I want validation, like social media. I need you to love me and need you to like me, because I have abandonment issues as a kid, and I want people to think I'm amazing and great. And as soon as you. I don't get all the likes, and I'm like, well, why is it my fault? Yeah, so there was. There was all that. And I just thought. So I was just like, the energy spend was too much. And I thought, imagine all that time that I get back. And if I use that time on creating better products, delivering a better service to my clients, networking more, right? What will be the reward on that? Are you there?

Oh, I'm here.

Oh, there you are. Sorry, buddy, we lost. I lost you. Yeah. So I was like, you know, that energy back, you know, what's the return on investment on that energy if I use it in other ways? So there was that element to me. I'm waffling a little bit here. But the second bit to me has been really from an ethics one point of view, right? Like I've been taught social media for years. I've been saying that, you know, they put so much money into playing to the non conscious parts of our minds, right? Everything is about getting our attention. And I've been saying for years that it's like, you know, we need to treat these organizations like the tobacco industry, the alcohol industry, there needs to be regulation. And I've been on my high horse about that for a very long time and I haven't felt comfortable about it and, and seeing the effects of social media on young people and so forth. And I mean, for me, you know, when you start looking at all the leak stuff that's come out over the last kind of few months and so forth, it's just, you know, I love if, you know, you know, Lush, Lush Cosmetics, you know, they came off of social media for a year, right? They actually shut down their platforms for 12 months and they're losing 10 million in revenue in doing that. But they were like, you know, we, we care so much about what goes into our products. We have to take an ethical stance on how we're attracting and ethically getting people's attention and that's it. Like, how do we start to ethically get people's attention? And we have organizations here that are mining our young people that have caused nothing but social unrest, mental health problems. And I just think that we have to take a stance and go actually like, can we look at the ethics behind this and start to kind of put some regulations around it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I don't think there are any ethics from the companies that seems, and it always makes me laugh because it's a bit like with the media at the moment that just pump fear and you've only got to go and look at the newspapers and it is just propaganda. It's fear. It's trying to keep people in that state of fear which we know makes people easily to manipulate and influence when they're in a fear state. But it always makes me laugh at the social media companies and, or some of the media that when it's Mental Health Week or it's Mental Health Month or whatever you want to call it there, they love to tickle the boxes and say how important it is. But actually they're the main drivers of some of the biggest problems, problems at the moment for people is them in especially the youngsters minds, but in kids minds and in adults minds pumping and pumping the pumping fear. And they know exactly what they're doing. They're very, very good at it. But a lot of people can't see it.

Yeah. And that's the thing. And it just worries me, you know, it worries me. So it's just like, you know, I think I said from an ethics point of view, is it? There was something about just how am I getting people's attention? And I, and I. Yeah. And it was just for me, it was just, I think time to step away. I think, you know, I think you're right. I think we just need to look at this stuff more. And we're putting this in the hands of our young people, but also our adults, you know, and even just as a, as a simple point of view, as a wellbeing coach and a productivity coach and as a performance coach, my job, my job is to protect your energy and your attention. Right. Like. And attention, most of all, your attention and focus is one of your most powerful resources that you have. And these are machines that are just cutting into our ability to manage our attention. So just as a performance coach point of view, it's like, you know, if we want to get the best out of you in a day, you know, we need to better manage your attention. Well, what are the risks within that? Well, your phone is a massive risk today.

It's a big one.

Yeah, it's a big one. Now I'm not saying like I work with people to be able to manage their relationship. It's about putting guardrails and stuff. And this I'm saying to people, it's not that it's inherently super bad and you should, no one should use it. Yes, I have some ethical questions around it personally, but from a business point of view. Well, one of the reasons I need bright lines, I don't need blur lines because I'm an ex drug addict. I need bright lines around like rules. Right. Like, it's not that I can have one or two drinks, I must have have no drinks. It's not that I can use social media for 10 minutes a day. I just can't use it. I have to have no cake in the house, I have to have no cookies in the house because if there's a packet there, I'm just going to destroy them all. So that worked for Me, but for other people, I just, you know, and, you know, it's just about saying, hey, like, you know, firstly, ethically talk to me about this, right? Like, what are you, what are your thoughts on this and putting it in the hands of young people and especially your children and so forth, because this is what these companies are doing. So let's talk about that and let's understand that. But then, like I say, let's just put some guidelines in place. So we're protecting your focus, your attention and your wellbeing in a day.

What about. Because again, going back to energy and actually, we launched our own energy course, energy protocol course, a couple of months ago. And again, to try and go through the basics to help a guy have more energy and understand how to tap into it, to kind of live a better life and maybe think better. But I know with you, it's performance and wellbeing to energize your team. So if you were looking at a, you know, I think it's maybe easier if you're just dealing with one person to. As opposed to a team. So how do you start by energizing a team if they come in and say, right, Shev, this is what we're after.

Yeah, well, there is, but it's both. It's, it's coming in at two different angles. But I think that if. And I do work with individuals as well as teams, but I think it's. I think that first of all, if you're looking at the organizational energy, team energy is simple things like just looking at the cadence of project work, right? Like, you know, and what you're committing to. You know, we're seeing teams are, you know, again, the typical kind of organizations I'm working in is everyone's overworked and understaffed. Right. It's just a consistent message, you know, and it's like, well, we've got eight projects in the, in the, in the, in the tank right now. We've got four projects coming down the line. Okay, well, at some point, you scope those projects, you agree timeline to. To those projects. You know, when are those projects kicking off? Well, you know, we've got that project kicking off straight after this project. Well, the problem is there's going to be a crossover there, first of all. Right, so it's. Okay, let's. Let's look at this. Well, let's understand that, you know, that this six months of project work for your team is going to be very tiring. You're going to spend energy on that. So we need to look at this kind of cadence, this periodization of project work, right? So we're going to work on this project for six months. Now, why don't we just have a break for two weeks, right? Three weeks. And then what are the protocols that we're putting in place within those two to three weeks or even just a week? I mean, ideally, we're looking at two to three weeks, ideally a month, right, between project. But business needs. People want to make more money, more money, more money, money, money. So we just say, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But it's like, actually, you know how we. It's like training, it's periodization, it's no different, right? You run hard during intervals for two minutes, you rest for two minutes, three minutes, right? You train for a marathon for a few months, every three weeks, you should take a week off, right? And if you train for a marathon for three months, you don't go straight into another marathon. A lot of people do. That's why they get consistently injured. But if we look at athletes, they'll have an A and B race in a year, right? And they'll have sufficient timing in between that. So it's saying like, hey, it's going to cost your team energy to get to the finish line and put this across the line. So how can we help the team put energy back in the tank to then move on to the next project? So then they've got. And this is about helping people understand what the ROI on that is. Less mistakes, more consistency in their work, better ability to navigate parts of the brain responsible for creativity, strategic thinking, decision making and just, hey, guess what, a better working environment. So, you know, it's just, I think that's. I mean, there's obviously a lot of other things within that, looking at individuals and so forth, but generally speaking, it's just very simple. The energy cycles and how that aligns with the project life cycles.

I think it's interesting and for both of us, having worked, for those that don't know, Shev, you worked in the city for how many years as a youngster?

15, 14.

So I was just under 20 years. So we got to see a lot of what different companies were like and the underbelly of them. And what I found amazing when I look back is that no company at that point ever spoke about your health or wellbeing at work. They spoke about your revenue you generated. And if it was enough, then. Well, it was never enough. But I do find that really interesting. In the last, let's say, five years, that More and more companies are now saying, hold on a minute. It is a, you know, the bottom line is it helps our bottom line to help look after our staff. And, you know, if guys are sick or they're ill or they're, you know, having struggles with depression and what have you, of course, then they're going to be off work. And actually that doesn't help to create a great working environment when you've got a revolving staff. So I wondered for you, is that one of those things that you've seen? Is it what, in the last five years where companies will now happily pay a decent amount of money to have experts like yourself come in and try to help them?

You say decent amount of money. So people are watching. That's like a coaches public speakers joke. It's getting better, that's for sure. Come do some free. It'll be really great exposure for you. Get lost. So, no, no. Have I said, I mean, absolutely. Right. Like, I think back to, you know, the workplace, 10, 15. I mean, I used to get laughed at for wearing my gym stuff like going out for, you know, definitely my. And this was even just several years ago, right? Several years ago when I was last back in an office. I remember the last year I was, you know, super healthy. And that's the kind of transition to leaving was like my fitness was getting better and I was running a lot and training and I remember, you know, all the other everyone else was going down the pub and I was getting dressed in my Lycra and going for a run. You know, you would get hard levels of banter around that. And even going back the decade before that, like it was, you know, yes, people had gym memberships and, and, you know, there was. But the companies would never support you in that or play. And to be honest with you, you'd get like, you try and go to the gym at lunch and it would be like, no, no, no. Like, that's very. I remember having my best ever quarter from a revenue point of view. Like, I nailed it, took it, smashed it home. And on the Friday of the last quarter, I tried to go to the gym at lunch and they went, no, no, you can't do that. It sends the wrong impression to the team. And I'm like, I just made you a fortune, right? So I think there's that. And I think, you know, let's get into the weeds because it's just for two seconds. I think the evolution that I always talk about is that we, I think we did get to 2008, right, like when the credit crunch happened at Lehman's and I was working to give people context, I worked in recruitment, financial services recruitment at the time. And you know, when Lehman's happened, suddenly the market went from being financial compensation to everything else, right. People stopped talking about money. They were still talking about money but people were just happy to have jobs. Right. And then when people were looking to move, they were looking at the overall work life, you know, the overall compensation. They wanted work life balance of some kind. And then you had this flurry and this growth of like tech companies and Google's and Facebooks where suddenly the sexy media companies with slides and snacks and stuff like that. So I think everyone started to just look at kind of work life balance or trying to give people more. And I think you saw a change in compensate in packages, right, like and that. But the work ethic was still there. But people definitely wanted more from their jobs in the sense of their lives, if that makes sense and having that balance. So I think that started to occur and then I think, you know, I think the sea change started to happen in companies like I would probably say three, four years ago. I think we had a big, you know, I think when, and definitely I think when the Royals were doing all the heads together stuff and we had a big year of just talking about mental health publicly, a lot of people started, you know, there's a lot of books coming out, a lot of TV shows coming out. And I think that that was kind of a real change in the temperature out there. And I think it's just, you know, companies have, but and they've been slowly evolving and changing. We've got to a point now though where you have to, right? Like that's where we are now. If you're trying to attract talent in the market, especially early talent, right. If you are trying to attract young human beings onto graduate programs and get the best of the best from a younger audience, they are going to sit there and they're going to ask you about what you do to help with their well being. They want to know and that's. And that's it. So companies are now being forced, yet a lot of companies who were making the change beforehand, but now you're finding companies that even if they weren't on board of it, they're having to look at overall wellbeing because the market is demanding it of them. But then also you do have a lot of good bosses and a good got of good leaders who are like have working with burnt out unenergized teams who are Saying, sugar, we need to do something about this. So, I mean, it's exponentially just blown up.

Doesn't that come funny if I've got advanced leadership written on my list of things to talk about? Because I do think it all depends on the, you know, we call it leader or just your boss. You know, it could be desk head, but if you've got, if I was ahead of a desk, I would be very much about implementing to the team that they take time, that they, you know, drink filtered water, they do the, you know, get out at lunchtime and get some, some daylight, some sunlight, what have you, which is in short supply at the moment in the uk. But what about yourself? Because often it's obviously it starts at the top, doesn't it? And filters down, pardon the pun.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, absolutely. And it's, I think it's, you know, I always talk about, you got to, when looking to deliver a program of wellbeing, you've got to do a top down, top up, but bottom down, bottom up, top down approach to things. Right? And I think, but, you know, I lean towards the bottom down approach first of all, because ultimately, you know, if you're a startup founder, if you're a CEO or if you're in leadership team, there you are setting the standard, right. Like you are. People will look to you to lead on all different elements of, you know, with the work or how you look after yourself and so forth. You are setting the tone for that. And there's also no point me doing, you know, a series of workshops talking about, you know, thinking about life more as intervals and sprints as opposed to a marathon or, and, you know, learning to manage the project, life cycles, your energy, life cycles. Learning to take a break during the day and step away and go for a walk at midday because the sun's at its highest point, especially during winter. So you get that, but also just so you take a break and can think about things and process things and not even doing that five days a week, just trying to do that, maybe three days a week, right? Like, so you can start, I can start to come along with all these tools and these tactics. But here's the thing. If you've got a boss and like life is a marathon, you've just got to keep going, going, going, right? Like, and I want you to come back to your email at 9 o' clock at night. And I put that level of guilt, then there's this no point hiring me. Yeah, I said there's just no point. Like there's just no point. So for me, when I go into an organization like this is your house, I'm not going to shit what you know, like, this is your house. But I've got to, I've got to come and find out what the rules are that you play by in your house and I might have to challenge them with you. So for a lot of work that I do at the moment, where I talk about people fuel, I start with the leader fuel. Let's look at how you're managing your energy, your time and how that links to your performance. Or maybe you don't need any help, but let me help you understand why you working on some wellbeing metrics will get the best results out of your team. They'll be more consistent, they're more likely to stay. You'll attract the best talent. Let's link it into your targets as a leader and let's help you understand that and build those dots. And often by educating them on how it's going to help the performance of their team, it in turn gets them changing their own behaviors and working on themselves.

So, yeah, isn't it about, in a way, you're kind of selling to them why they should be implementing these things. It's trying to say, you know, that the benefit isn't just for the staff, it's for everybody. And I always think with teams, when I used to go into different banks and you'd have huge floors of, you know, primarily men, it was always about some of those groups. They'd have really good energy. And, you know, I knew working for some of the different desks, one I had, you know, six people working with me. Another one I think was on a desk of about 14. But all the people on there had really good energy. And that transmitted to you where you think, I want to work with these people. Whereas if you've got an unmotivated team, but, you know, it does come down to the leader. I always think if a leader or a desk head or something like that is unhealthy and isn't taking care of themselves, I think it shows they've got a lack of discipline. And it's always interesting to then look at the rest of the team and see how does that, how does that filter down to them. What about for you with people that you've worked with who have been your bosses? Because I've had some great ones and some shit ones before. Is there anybody there that kind of you look at and think, you know, they, they helped move you on the right path?

Yeah, I mean, I suppose a bit of a cheesy one. And I actually. I actually thanked him at my wedding because I don't think that he. I don't think that he realized what a kind of direct influence he had on me from a wellbeing point of view. But it was actually the guy who. My last job, when working in the cities that year that I was in Lycra and leaving and stuff like that, you know, I worked for Tom. And I worked for Tom actually, years before. Like, you know, we worked at another company together and, you know, we were partners in crime, you know, chaos together, and come up. And then he set up his own business. And then he kind of was like, come, come work for me. Come work for me. And I kind of ended up going working for him for the last year. And he. What I gave about Thomas is, firstly, he didn't hire me based on the reputation that I had built, because my reputation was sketchy. Because, you know, I was an addict, right? Like. And I would be your best salesman and your worst salesman the following quarter, right? Like, I would. Like, the highs and lows of working with me was tough, and I let people down. And I was a reprobate. And I'd slowly started to build that rep, rebuild my reputation over those couple of years. And it'd been easy for him to have not given me a chance, you know, or judge me on that. But he saw me for who I was, not who I used to be. Now, at the time, I needed that, you know, And I think this is the thing when I'm talking, this is a great lesson for people who might have people who have addiction in their life and, you know, working people who are trying to create changes. You know, there's gonna be a lot of shame about who I was. I can. Even though you might be okay, your micro expressions or micro judgments or micro, like this. So I'm constantly looking for the moment where you're like, I see you think I'm shit, right? Like, and I look for that shame. And it's like, I try to deal with that, but he never once put that on me. Like, it was just like, you know, I can see where you're at. It's amazing. It's cool. Come on. I'm gonna create the right environment. And he just kind of support and that gave me confidence. It inched me towards having the confidence to then start for myself. And then, you know, throughout that final year, he, you know, he went out and partied and, you know, he would go out and have Drinks, and he'd go out with everyone. And he didn't once, like, try and be a lad and go like, oh, you used to be so much more fun. Or, you know, when people used to laugh at me, they'd be like, whatever, he'll outrun you. He's been there, he's done it. He'd supported me in my journey, and he was my cheerleader in a really cheesy way.

Is that important to have someone like that, though, around you?

I think so. And I think this is. I think some people can take away from this. It's like, as a guy, definitely, because it was like, you know, I was listening to. I was reading Will Smith's new book. I read that the other day. And he talks about this lovely moment where he met Nelson Mandela, and Nelson Mandela showed him around his house, and he was holding his hand for about 10, 15 minutes. And that just felt so unnatural, but so wonderful.

Yeah.

And I totally, like. I just loved that thought. Like, the thought of leading another man and holding it. Something that we are, like, hugging a man is one thing as a bro hug, or even squeezing your mate who you love and give him in a cuddle and telling you love him, that's the next level. But holding his hand and, like, guiding him around. But there are some countries where you do that, right? It's how you.

But over here, if someone did that to you, like, get the fuck off me.

But it was so wonderful to have that connection. I think that's what I felt like Tom had done for me in some ways. Like, he was holding my hand through that period, period of time, and he was just letting me know, like, I'm, hey, I'm here. I support you. You know, I'm not judging you. There's no shame around this. Like, do what you want to do. And I left him. I left after a year, you know, and he's like, like, you know, whatever. But he was like, cool. Like, I get it. You want to go become a personal trainer and you want to do this. And it was just amazing, his constant support. So I think, you know, going back to your question, I think, yeah, it is like. I think that's a nice analogy. You know, it's like always trying to hold the, like, cheesy. But it might sound wrong, but, you know, like, as a man and other men around me, like, how am I holding your hand here? You know, am I taking it to that next level to say, like, hey, I'm in with you right here, and I'm supporting you and I'm there for you. And I think guys who are going through change is finding that balance of trying to show them that. But that can make them feel very uncomfortable. So it's like, you know, it's. How do you. I don't know.

What we're saying to guys is, you know, look around you, and it hasn't got to be that you're in charge of them, as it were. It could be that it's colleagues and what have you. How can you support them? It doesn't mean that you have to walk into office, try and hold their hand tomorrow, because that could get an interesting reaction. But, you know, just looking around you and unlearn, unlearn.

And I think. Sorry to inter. Politely interrupt. Like, I still find myself bantering, you know, like. Like it's so easy as a. As a guy of my age. Like, you know, someone. A guy does something, and I mind my French here and please, like, you know, like, understand this. Like, those days, I'm gonna do something like, you pussy. Yeah, that's just how I was brought up. Like, you know what I mean? Like, and that's an endearment. Like, it's a love thing. But actually, like, you know, I've had to. There's a lot of things like that where, you know, a guy is trying to create change or support, and just like, you can have that bit of banter or that laugh, because that's what we do. But actually turning around and going, like, no, man, that's really super cool. Like, tell me more. Yeah, yeah, you know, and connect. And I think that's the thing that I've had to do is unlearn the banter, unlearn those defense mechanisms of how to survive amongst a group of guys and actually go, now this is something that's really important to this guy. They've said it out loud, so let me hear what they're saying and show a level of support and that this is a safe place where they can talk about that. Like, cool, man. Like, I rate you and that's been great. I've been working with a lot of younger people around me lately. Like, and being around them and watching how they banter with each other or deal with situations, and it's been quite nice to be the old man in the room and be able, like, dude, like, you know, like, just like, think about what you're saying. Like, you know, or just give them a nudge and then they kind of go, oh, yeah, like, I hear you. You know, that's. That's a Real as a man, it's like a real honor to be in that situation and not like telling you how you should be, but just going, hey, dude, like, you know, can't speak about ladies like that anymore. Like, you know, like, think about how you're talking about, like, to your mate about something like that.

That it is that thing of a bit. Like with schooling, you know, you want to teach a child how to think, not what to think. And like you say with the unlearning, which I've found as a, as a parent is, you know, so much of, like, why are you doing that? Like, well, that's because. That's because either what my mom and dad did or that's what the programs on TV did. So for us, sometimes without little kids, like, they'll be doing something and I'll be like, no, they can't do that. Why not? And you're like, because. Well, because. And you're fuck. Like, you've got. You've got. Yeah, damn the brain. I just wondered for you also, what knowing so much about what, what kind of things do you do in the mornings to take care of yourself? Because I think I asked this, you know, when we spoke over a year ago, but we all know that we go through phases where, you know, maybe you're hot on certain exercise or you go through that period in the, in the winter where it's colder outside, so you're not maybe training so much. So what kind of things are working for you at the moment? Moment.

So I think, I think first of all, if we're going to talk about, you know, we're talking about morning routines, I think you've just, you've just, you've just nailed something there, which is at the moment, you know, and this is the first thing whenever I'm talking about morning routines with people is realizing there is no one perfect morning routine. Again, like a diet, Some things work for some people and not for others. And also my morning routines are very different now to my morning routine two weeks ago. Right. Like, that's, that's, that's the thing that, you know, is constantly evolving based on time of year, energy in a week, tasks that I've got to complete versus the projects that I'm on, like how much attention is needed at work and so forth. What I do start to look at is I kind of know what doesn't work. Right? Like, and there's some basic principles, like one of my first concepts in life, like, I have a list of concepts that I live by. Concepts are just Ideas, some ideas work for others and don't for for others. Right. And concepts, we can constantly evaluate them and look at them and challenge them. So one of the first concepts, and this is actually more of a principle I would say, which is more in stone, which is no screen light before sunlight. Right. Like this is, this is probably my number one hard rule. And no matter how much my morning routine grows or shrinks, as it were, that stays steadfast.

Right.

The difference, yeah, like a no screen light before sunlight. So we look at that for a couple of reasons. Firstly, you know, natural light helps our circadian rhythm and our of the day and it helps set our energy levels for the day. We also know that for a lot of us we can have a natural bump of cortisol in the morning. So our stress hormone. So that's just then looking to ride any other stressful event in our life. Guess what? Checking emails, notifications, your phone, social media news, that's a stressful event, right? That's not regulating your nervous system, it's pushing your nervous system kind of up, right? Like it's spiking it. So for me, I want to stop riding that wave. I don't want to get on that wave early doors, right? I'm trying to protect my attention and my focus and my energy until as late as possible in the day because my attention is king in the morning. That's when I get my most productive and creative work done. So for me, no screen light before sunlight. I'll go out, get some natural light. And again in wintertime, you're looking 12 to 15 minutes even if it's overcast, just to help my system set for the day. And I'm avoiding my phone hopefully until about 2, 3 o' clock in the afternoon and avoiding my emails as well. I'm protecting my creativity and all that good, good stuff. So I think that's first, first number, number one, you know, from that is, is giving myself some time to think in the morning as well. Right. Not jumping straight into a book and trying to learn like how is my brain processed yesterday? That's why we sleep, right? Like the reason we sleep is so your, your brain can process things. It can put them into the files that needs to go into. So usually as like a lot of us, I'm dealing with challenges in my life in any given week. So I want to know how my brain has processed those challenges overnight. So I'm going to give it a window to just settle, let those thoughts come up and for me to navigate and process them. Because my thoughts will, will feel different today versus yesterday. They will feel different, they'll still be there, but the feeling connect them will be hopefully less intense or slightly different. So I give myself an hour to think about that or half an hour to think about it. So that's two hard things that I just try and stick by. Right? Like that's it. But then, you know, I. Generally speaking we'll try and put some breath work in everyone's like, what's the, what kind of breath work? Guess what? Just inhale, exhale, right? Just keep it basic like because some, some breathing patterns if you hold your breath can cause people to more anxiety and all these different things. So if you haven't had a breath practice, if you're not down the rabbit hole, just learn to lie there for five minutes and inhale and exhale through the nose, nice and slow. Again. This is about regulating your nervous system for the day and just making sure your brain is kind of nice calm state for the day. And that's it. And then I have a shower, I get dressed, like that's my morning routine, right. Get set for the day. I make the bed religiously. Right. That small routine, that small reward of doing so. And that's kind of like my, I would say my basic stuff from a movement perspective, like a minimum standard. I might try and do like 60 seconds of squats or 60 seconds of push ups. Like we can see great rewards in that. I'm staying connected with exercise. I'm jacking the heart rate just a little bit. I'm doing it. So just doing some form of exercise for 60 seconds, that's about it. Yeah. And then other days I might read for 20 minutes, 25 minutes. I am doing a lot of, I'm leaning into meditation at the moment.

Right. Okay. I'll tell you what I found really interesting and I don't even know. I was watching a program the other day and it was basically about how the system is designed to keep us sick. I mean, look at the food and look at social media, all the different stuff. But it was really interesting how it said that. Isn't it worrying that society has created an environment where we have to try and force ourselves to do some meditation and think I must get outside today to get some air. And it was amazing how it did make me realize that, you know, we talk about all this stuff and it is, as you know, it's so important, but it's that most people wouldn't, wouldn't think about even getting out and educating the self on the importance of fresh air, fresh water, like you said, just going out at the right time of day to get some sunlight. So that's one of those big things. It's like, try and do the basics. It hasn't got to be super kind of, you know, confusing stuff. Just start with a few basics in the morning.

Yeah. And I think that's. I think if you look at a kind of overall reaching theme of my mornings is how am I fending off the day? Right? Like, for as long as possible, you know, Like, I definitely. I'm going to the gym first thing because I'm like, let's prioritize. Putting on my own oxygen mask before anyone else's. But it's like, how am I trying to stay. I'm trying to stay off my phone to as late as possible. I'm trying to stay off emails to as late as possible. I'm trying to stay off tv, Netflix to as late as possible. I'm trying to engage with negative email, like people. And like, I'm just trying to fend off the day so I can do the things that I love, like working on the pieces, like creating new workshops, writing blogs, like, you know, like, it's like, just how am I fending off the day? Yeah, because that's the thing. Like morning routines are, you know, I think it's. It's very quickly, you know, if I got up, if I checked my phone, if I checked social media, if I didn't get to the gym, if I didn't make my bed, if I ate first thing in the morning, because food doesn't really work for me until later on the day, because my system, like, like if I do all these things, then suddenly my day just becomes chaos, you know, so for. Yeah, it's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It just, I mean, it just reminds people that there's no set right thing. And that's one of the things I always say with people is you have a look at their situation, you're like, you know, what is going to work for them? Because if they haven't got kids, then they probably haven't got those constraints in the morning of either trying to get them to school or not to school or et cetera. You know, if you live on your own, you can be pretty hard on what you do in the morning because you've got no one to fuck it up for you, you know? Whereas if you're. If you're up and you're about to leave, then someone's like, oh, can you just help me with this? Or can you do that? So that's one of the big takeaways for the guys listening is, you know, it's, it's very personal to you and.

It'S knowing what doesn't work for you that's consistent through that. That's the key thing. It's like, what don't you want to do? Like, no matter what, whether I'm looking after kids, whether, like I know if I check my email first thing in the morning, that just sends my thoughts and attention all over the day and scatters it for the day. So, okay, so then that's a principle that you can try and maintain or a concept that you can try and maintain no matter what life throws at you. And again, remembering these cycles, you know, it's coming up to Christmas, I'm going to have longer in the mornings to read and go and do a sauna and doing all these nice things. But I've got some big projects, programs of work where I probably actually my morning routine will last about 20 minutes. I'll do some squats, do some breath, you know, won't check my phone, but then I'll be straight onto my creative work on my desk at 8, 7:30, 8 o' clock to really maximize those first few hours of distraction free attention. So again, it's this flow depending on where you are in life.

The distraction free attention is a priceless one. But now I'm going to let you end on there.

Cool.

I feel that at some point we're going to do a podcast in together holding hands or something like that. So how can guys get hold of if they want to kind of find out more about what you do or work with you?

They can't. I can't find me no chevyruff.com chevyruff.com is best place to find me. And you know, if any I would say is people. If people have questions around stuff that we've talked about, you know, always feel free to ping me an email. I've got reading lists and content that people can explore stuff with more. So, so always happy to help. But yeah, ChevyRuff.com, best place and actually I am on LinkedIn as well. So if people, I don't really publish on there, but you can connect with me through LinkedIn as well.

There you go. Plenty of options for a guy who wants to do life better. And we'll put the, put the links in the show notes. I know, I know guys don't want to have to do too much homework on this stuff. So if you can make it as easy as possible to consume them. That's great. But, Sheb, I appreciate all your time, brother, and hopefully we will speak to you soon in person.

Done. Thank you.

Thanks for listening. Remember to sign up to our Game Change weekly E letter that's read by men around the world. Sign up@homeanacademy.com forward/movement. Until next time.