EP098 - FIGHTING SPIRIT - GREG WOOTTON | WHOLE MAN ACADEMY

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Okay. So this is the Whole Man Academy podcast, episode 98. My guest today is Greg Wootton, former world champion fighter coach, former speaker at the Whole Man Academy. Mate, how are you and where are you?

I'm good, thank you. I'm good, thank you. I'm actually living in Los Angeles now. I've been here for about two years. I got here just before the pandemic and I'm still, yeah, I'm still coaching, I'm still personal training, teaching seminars in the sport. I also been doing a lot more coaching in the corporate environment as well. So I co founded a company a few years ago. We've kept that going and also resilience has been a massive topic in so many reasons over the last couple of years. So that's been really going well as well.

I like it. Well, you've mentioned one of the words that's in my notes about resilience, especially to state yours as a fighter. But I mean, take me back to firstly, I mean I'd like to talk about why you started fighting, but I mean, you know, it's probably nearly four years ago now. You came to a Whole Man Academy event and spoke there. And I remember that my big mistake in that event because I was learning about events was trying to have too many speakers on the day, thinking that the more speakers added more value. And then very quickly I realized that guys like yourself have got such a great story that they generally need like an hour to be able to unpack things. So what was it like for you when you came to the event?

Yeah, no I found it is, I think, for me, and it also relates also to why I started the sport. But I think being in groups of men, and also being in groups of men where we can talk quite openly about, you know, emotionally aware people or sharing and things like that is a. Is a big. I find it very beneficial, very quite. Being vulnerable in groups of men. Yeah, yeah. I think it's a big thing. I think it depends on what environment you've grown up in and things like that. But I really enjoyed that about the. About the event. I enjoyed, you know, trying to contribute, give some value from my story, but also just. Yeah, there were some great speakers and I thought everyone was so honest and vulnerable and open and it was very, you know, it takes a lot of bravery to do that and it was cool to meet and connect with a lot of people who are all so interesting and doing and doing such different things, different stories to tell, you know, and so, yeah, I found it very massively beneficial, really. Just a nice space, a very safe space.

Yeah. And you know what, that's what I mean. I've, you know, since we've kind of developed the idea, we learned more with the event about trying to create, you know, a cool event for men to come to, as opposed to it just being a hotel room where it's, you know, slightly sticky carpets and weird patterns on it. And that's one of the things I've missed. And I know a lot of the guys that came to our events, you know, pre lockdowns that they always said there's nothing really else like this for guys to get together and, you know, and ask a world champion fighter or a guy from Formula One or, you know, like Leon McKenzie, when obviously he spoke, and Fergus Crawley and all these different guys. So, yeah, I'm. I'm hoping at some point we can get the events back when. When I'm clear that a. I don't have to organize too much and make it as easy for my life as possible. But so. So starts off with, whereabouts in the UK did you come from? And then was it roughly 15 that you got interested in fighting?

Yeah. So I'm from London, I'm from the West, I'm from Acton. Acton, Ealing, Shepherd's Bush area of London. And then at 15 years old, I stopped playing football. About 13 was looking something to do to keep fit. And actually I was inspired to take up martial arts by a boy at my school, a friend of mine, who was an Afghan, Afghan boy who'd come over by himself. He'd been Sent over for his own safety by his mum. And he was a taekwondo fighter. So he, he had been doing taekwondo and he'd been training super hard with the national team out there. And I was just very, very impressed and inspired by, by his, his martial arts practice, which gave him so much discipline and confidence and grounding, like, because he, he came in year nine and then by, by the end of school two years later, the only English he could speak in year nine was from speaking to American and British soldiers in Kabul. By the end of the school, he got the best grades. By the end, two years later, he got the best grades in the school. He outperformed me. You know, local kid who grew up in the area took it for granted. He outperformed me, outperformed everybody. And he was also strong and confident and like, was able to defend himself, which, which the environment he went to was. It was necessary sometimes. So. So then I started doing. I had another friend who was doing Muay Thai, Thai boxing. I tried a bit of boxing, but I didn't enjoy it because I didn't get in boxing. I went to this gym, Hanmo abc. They didn't teach you any technique and they just threw you in the ring with these traveler kids who just smashed me up.

Thanks for that.

Yeah, yeah. And then I did a bit of taekwondo and I like taekwondo, but it was just a lot. It was a lot of like punch in the air patterns, pad work. And then my first lesson of Muay Thai was straight away practical. I walked into the gym, everybody's big people sparring, small people, men, aspiring women this, people that. No one cared and no one cared. No one was like self conscious or looking at each other. There was no, like, scene like that. It was just very, very humble, raw and practical. Yeah, and I really, I like that there was still a lot of respect. And there was like this whole new world, man. It was totally different. But I was at 15 and then I just stayed pretty consistent with it.

So what point did you take it from? No, actually, let's, let's go back to. Because there are several. I often ask guys who follow the whole man academy or I sometimes have set on Instagram about questions to ask guests, because I can only have my own ideas. And one of them is about, like, what was it like when you first had your kind of first contact, like proper contact? Because we'll get onto my very deep and emotional martial arts story myself later, just for fun. But as was it, Mike Tyson said, everybody's got a plan till they get punched in the face. So what was it like?

Yeah, yeah. I remember first starting and, like, you know, you do these light techniques, and then when you're first sparring, you know, punching somebody in the face for the first time feels very weird.

Yes.

So getting used to that took a little bit of time. Like, you kind of shy with it and things like that. And then. But then when you. When you do some practice with people who've been training longer and they don't hold back on you, they just giving it to you. Same with sparring with women as well. I remember, like, one of my friends who's still my friend now. She. First time I was sparring with women, I was like, you know, it felt a bit weird to be hitting a woman.

I never thought of that because for me, it was always thinking about you taking punishment, as it were, but not dishing it out to people. That's a. That's a really good point.

Yeah. Yeah. No, for me, it was, like, weird to be hitting somebody else. And so with my friend Anna, she. She whooped me. She just totally whooped me. She was a lot better than me, so she. So I was like, all right, it's okay. You know, and you got to learn that it's nothing personal. It's not like a personal attack. And then also, I think there's another quote. I can't remember who said it, but someone said that everybody should get punched in their face once to realize their face isn't made of glass.

Yeah.

Now, I obviously take that out of context. It sounds totally different, but I think what. What the meaning behind it is is that we're much stronger, more resilient that we. Than we know. And, like, also, yeah, it's not as bad as you think. Well, depending, obviously, take it out of context. It can be terrible, but we're a lot tougher than we think, and we're a lot more resilient than we think, and that's a. It's a really good thing. And that's what I do as a coach. Now, obviously, I don't go around punching people in the face, but, you know, gently. Gently introducing this way of them to defend themselves and also teach people, show people in a nice, controlled environment how strong they are, how resilient they are naturally, and how powerful they are.

It's so interesting because I've always had that thing where, you know, not many people these days, we. I literally was emailing someone about this today saying most people lead such a cushy life these days, and, you know, people complain if their Coffee's a bit cold or if they've ordered Ubereats and isn't there within 15 minutes. And trying to, for us like bring up kids that are going to be used to, you know, sound like being able to take it on the chin but to introduce some kind of. That you're okay with. Like you don't have a meltdown when there's some physical rough and tumble. So yes, that's an interesting one. And like you said, when you're dishing out the punishment, because that's something that most people aren't used to, is what's it going to be like actually hitting someone. So then when did you come to have your go from kind of the 15 year old, let's say boy of doing that to then thinking I'm going to start as opposed to just doing some training, but I'm actually going to start going into prime, you know, full contact bouts.

Yeah, well, just to go one point back, I think when you talk about sort of raising kids and stuff. Yeah, I teach some kids here where I am now and also just in general and I think martial arts is fantastic for. I think like most martial arts are for real. Like part of the training which takes people by surprise is that there's a level of toughness. It's like when you get tired, you don't stop. You, you have to kind of push through this and you battle with that and everybody's at different levels. If you're fit, it takes a little bit longer if you're not fit. And that's the wonderful thing about it is that you learn to sort of be cool and operate in the, in the discomfort zone or out of your comfort zone.

So.

So I think it's a fantastic thing for kids to do, for people to do because you just get used to like, obviously it's not pain but it's discomfort and life is a lot of discomfort sometimes like you, like, you know when you have kids that you were saying earlier and you get no sleep and you've got to operate, you still have to perform and it's uncomfortable. What do you do? Like you throw attention or you know, you get used to it. So martial arts is brilliant for that. But going back to me with being 15 and starting training and stuff, my coach offered me a fight at the time. He's like, it was a non decision bout. It's called an inter club.

Right.

And hey, do you want to do this? Everyone's doing it. I said all right, okay. Very nervous. I was my most nervous. I've Been for any fight. I think that was the first one because you don't know what to expect. But what I liked about it was the direction it gave training, the camaraderie of training with people. And the whole experience was like, you learn a lot about yourself. I never actually planned on sort of being like a professional fighter or initially. I didn't plan and I didn't plan on taking it seriously and going to tie. I didn't do that. Wasn't me from the get go. It just. Every time I came to a crossroads, I kind of was led. You know, my kind of. My heart went one way. I was like, all right, I want to do this. All right, do I. So when it came to like, do I. Do I go to football training or do I go to the gym? I pick that. Do I go where do I go to university? Do I go to another city to go to university, or do I stay here and stay at the gym? And I kind of did that. So it was just one decision after the other. What do I study? I was going to study English, I was going to study psychology. Ended up doing sport and exercise science just because it was more interest. Just. Just went where my interest in fashion and it kind of grew. And then I got to the point where I was competing and I was competing at like my early professional fights. And then, then it was a bit of a crossroads again. It was like, you, I'm not going to be. You had to make a decision then of going kind of all in a bit more because then there's kind of consequences. You can get hurt also. It's just setting goals. So I had a fantastic group of people around me. I had some really good mentors to look up to and there was a lot of like vicarious reinforcement of other people doing well. Other people were really. Because I changed my mentality from sort of. I was. I used to play football as a defender, as a center back. So I was trying to avoid failure, not let anyone score goals. And then being in an individual sport as a fighter, it's all about trying, trying to win, training to win. So you're. Rather than trying to avoid failure, you're trying to achieve. So I had to flip my mentality from that because you can't win a fight if you go into it and try not to lose, you know, or it's very difficult. Yeah. So that was a big part of it. And then I set goals and then I think I went to a seminar, an NLP seminar, which is branch of psychology, Neuro, linguistic Programming and then there was a good goal setting element to that. And I remember thinking, then when I was about 18, I wrote out these goals and stuck it on my wall and it stayed on my wal good 10 years of my career doing, achieving those goals, which was crazy.

I love that.

Yeah, yeah, it was crazy. I think I've got it somewhere. But yeah, yeah.

So, because I always wonder, you know, at what point do you, do you lose the fear of like getting injured as well? Because. Is it because you're kind of young and a bit more carefree that you go into it? But at some point, as you said, you actually get properly battered for the first time and you end up with broken noses, broken, this, that, the other. So what is it like injury wise for you? Not necessarily just when you were young, but obviously as you developed into a, say like a grown man fighting.

Yeah. Do you know what? Like, I think, I'll be honest and I think there's an element of, there's an unhealthy element to that level of competition. And I would say this about athletes in general. So there's being fit and healthy at a healthy level. But then also when you're competing as a professional athlete, it becomes unhealthy. Like in any sport in the sense, like you're going beyond normal levels of healthy, you know, so training a martial art is great, but then when you want to get into fight shape, you have to train so hard that you get really tired, fatigued, the injury is there. You're training around injuries through injuries. And then also to actually do a fight sport, you have to have a certain disregard for your own safety or you're just not thinking about it. And I wasn't really thinking about it. I wasn't afraid of getting hit or hurt and I wasn't afraid of that. And it wasn't really on my mind because when it is on your mind, it kind of increases its chance of happening. So I think, yeah, generally I would say the people that go to compete at that we're all a little bit, a little bit, something's going on. We got, we're a little bit broken or there's some screws loose or we need to like, whatever, it's like different for different people. And I was saying this. I've got a friend who actually lives in the apartment next to me. He's a, he's a Muay Thai fighter and he's still fighting. And we were talking about all our different knocks and injuries and then after a while was like, why do we do this, why do we do this? But I think the passion for it overrides those kind of things. So what it gives you overrides what it takes away. So there are injuries, there are broken noses, there are cuts, scar, you know, there are some of those. But I would say overall on a regular basis, it's, it's not, I wouldn't say it's like a religion, but it gives your lifestyle a lot of framework. So you know, you go to bed earlier, you eat healthier food, you do, because you want to perform better in training. So overall it keeps you on a very straight and narrow and healthy, healthy mind, healthy body. Because. Yeah, so overall the health benefits are better. But then, you know, there are some, if you're not smart with it, you can come away with loads. And martial arts, not the smartest in terms of like rehabbing and prehabbing and things like that. So.

Well, I wondered with that because let's say this is why, you know, I said I kind of want to ask you sometimes the questions that the average chap like me who doesn't know too much about it is going to ask. And like in the lead up to a fight, when you were at the, you know, at the very top level, how far out are you training for a fight? And I, I would guess for you that you're always keeping a high level of fitness, health, etc, as opposed to some fighters you see kind of like, you know, just put on weight and then take it back off image. I always feel like it's probably not particularly good for you, but so let's say that you're X amount of weeks out from big fight. How do you change your training and how do you change what you're eating? And would that have been because you're trying to achieve a certain weight? Obviously, yeah, yeah.

So it's different cultures for different sports. So Muay Thai culture. Muay Thai people fight a bit more regularly than in boxing and in mma. Okay. So you're expected to be training quite regularly because you can have a short notice fight two weeks or three weeks away or something.

Yeah.

So there's a lot more regular training and some people take it more professional than others. I was very part of the reason why I was successful was just my consistency. It was my stubbornness and consistency. I always trained. I also, I loved it and it gave, like I said, it gave my life framework and purpose and all of these things. But so I would continue to be training, which would mean about probably in the heat of my like prime when I was Fighting at the highest level. I was training twice a day, probably five, five, definitely six days. Maybe not every day, twice a day, but six days a week. Yeah. Because I was a professional athlete, I'd lived in Thailand and they trained twice a day, two out, three, two three, two, three hour sessions every time. So I knew what was going on and I knew what my competition was training. So I was constantly doing that, which was maybe a bit too much, but. And then when I had a fight coming up about, yeah towards in the prime I would go up in weight and go down in weight as well, which was not healthy, but I don't recommend. But it happens because it's, you know, you do anything to an extreme. So I'd cut weight and then it started off in my career, cut weight and it would go the next time, a bit more the next time and then by the end of it you're like putting on loads of weight, losing loads of weight and it's really not, it's really hard to have moderation because yeah, if you've deprived yourself for so long, it's hard to like stay. So. So I'd diet, I'd start dieting. About eight weeks out I start dieting. So I'll be reducing my, you know, cutting out the sugars, cutting out this and that. Then about six to four weeks out I'd get a little bit stricter on my portion sizes. Meal timings are very important as well. So if you're training twice a day, you definitely need to get your food in and your replenishment after the first session quickly.

Yeah, the energy.

Yeah too because basically you need to get glycogen back into the muscle storage. So there's a 45 minute window where you want to be eating, particularly twice a day.

What would you eat and usually if it was straight after training, what would you, what would be your kind of go to things to eat?

Yeah, kind of like things like sweet potato, broccoli and a source of protein. Back then I eat a lot more meat and fish. I don't eat as much now, but yeah, some, some sort of, some form of carb, veg and a protein. Sometimes maybe I would have like even a trick I remember I used to do was I would have a white bread jam sandwich, peanut butter jam. Now this goes straight back in quickly and then later on I'd have something else. Sometimes you can have a shake or something but you want to put something back into the muscle so the glycogen gets back in there quickly and then ideally you'd have six to eight hours in between training sessions. It was far from ideal for me. Sometimes. Yeah. You know, around work and studies and things like that. But yeah, and then, then the last like four weeks can get quite intense with dieting because also that's when you're doing your most intense training. So you're trying to. Yeah, this is another, like big resilience builder is when you're training your hardest and it's most intense, you're actually eating probably your least.

Right.

Which shouldn't be that way. That's not the way it should be, but it's kind of often the way it happened. I needed to lose the weight, so I was limiting the amount I was eating. But I was also training super hard. And then the last week or 10 days is all about what's called making weight. So a process of making weight. There's a few different ways of doing this. The way I was doing it was a bit more old school and not very good for hydration levels. So I basically cut down my food and then not eat much at all for the last. Where you can then have a day of not eating before the weigh in and then. Then you manipulate your water levels for the last bit. So more modern fighters now, they do what he's called they water load. So they drink loads and loads of water, reduce their sodium or increase their sodium and then reduce it and then they drop a load of water. So they drink loads of water and it releases a hormone which gets you to excrete and pee a lot. Oh, right, yeah. Then they cut it like 24 hours to perform and you keep peeing but you're not drinking. So all this water comes out. Then you have a hot bath and things like that and you sweat. So you're just reducing your. Because we're 70% water so that we can actually lose. People lose a lot of like in kilos, depending on how big you are. 4 or 5, 10 kilos. Some of the big people in water, you can lose 10 kilos in a day. And then you weigh in and then you rehydrate. You've got 24 hours to rehydrate. I was just kind of dieting down and losing like three or four kilos of water over a few days, which was not a good way to do it. But. But you kind of like. It's weird, you kind of shrink and your waist just goes from normal, just like everything. And then that's 24 hours. You just blow up again in between.

Well, so I was going to ask then let's say you've had your weigh in. I know obviously you're not going to just go and eat whatever you want because you're a day away from fights. So what would you then eat? Because I guess you're, you know, trying to replenish your energy levels as much as anything else.

Yeah. So initially when I was first doing it, I didn't have a clue. But then also I worked with some nutritionists. Yeah. You know, I was just straight off the scales. Haagen darts, ice cream the night before. Not, not professional enough. But as I got older, it was mostly first thing is about hydration. So hydration is super important one for performance. If you're a little bit dehydrated, it affects you. And also for the brain as well.

Yeah.

So hydration. And there was a. Roughly, you want to have a liter of water sipping that regularly over an hour with electrolytes in.

Okay.

So if you've sweated out five kilos, you need to have one and a half times that in electrolyte water every, like, spread out over the time. So say it's five and a half, you need seven and a half liters over the next seven and a half hours. So it's crazy.

Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, that, that process there of rehydrating, putting that water back in, needs to be done slowly because if you just gulp loads of water just flushes straight through you. And then snacks small and regular grazing. And it's just carbohydrates really. So it's not about trying to build muscle at this point. It's not about protein, maybe a little bit, but it's mostly just carbohydrates. You're just trying to put loads of carbs goes into your muscles there. And then you want to definitely, yeah, slow release stuff things like that. The next day you want to time how quickly the carbs are released, depending on how far away from the fight or when you start warming up. So there is a science to it and sometimes you get it wrong and you eat too much, too close to it and you're still there.

And that's what I was trying to think. You know, there's a lot of. To set the obvious science to it, but I guess to somebody's trial and error as well. I only know from, you know, doing the races that I used to do that, you know, you always told never try something new on race day or any new equipment and stuff like that. But yeah, sometimes I'd have something and you just didn't feel, you know, you didn't always necessarily feel 10 out of 10, but you would just think, oh, this hasn't worked for me. So I guess, yeah, it's a, as you say, it's a bit of trial and error. And what about the kind of, I wondered with the, with the guy that you're fighting, how much, if you're only given like a few weeks before you fight him, how much homework would you have done about his technique, about what, you know, what his kind of different points were as a fighter?

Yeah, it depends on how much notice you have and also what level you are. But things are changing nowadays. So everybody, because of social media and there's so much more of that. You can, even beginners with one fight can research their opponents now. Yeah, but you know, it doesn't, that doesn't do. But yes, if you've got a full camp. So however long that is, eight weeks or 12, you know, the fight's happening a while away, you can study them and yeah, I used to do that quite away from the fight with my coach. I'd study it, I'd watch it, I'd watch what they're good at, what they're not good at. I try and think about what I'm good at, what I'm not good at, and then we come up with a strategy and a plan and it would be an overall plan and then there'd be specific techniques that you're going to practice.

Right.

And then I would leave it. I didn't want to carry on watching these videos because then you can start to obsess and it can start this guy. So that was. And then on the short notice thing, sometimes I've got caught out a few times where I've took his fight at short notice and wasn't able to do as much research or there wasn't as much. So some of the, like, sometimes I remember I fought one time and I hadn't really been able to watch him and I only found out he was a former pro boxer as well after the fight.

Right.

I found that out in the fight too. He could hit really, really hard, he could box really hard. So sometimes, yeah, you have more. And then it is a bit of a chess. That's when it becomes chess again. Different people. Some people don't like to watch their opponent at all. But I like to watch it, think about it and then plan and strategize, bit of prep.

And then I always think about, you know, in the fight, not necessarily, let's say, you know, early on, because you're probably still thinking clearly, but, you know, the more you're getting hit and you're getting tired, how much of. If you're listening to the guys in your corner, are they still kind of giving you advice and tips? How much of that you're actually able to process when you're being. You're, you know, you're getting battered by someone and you're trying to batter them at the same time and avoid kicks, punches, etc.

Yeah, well, that's. That's also quite individual. So I was. Personally, I was able to stay quite calm in fights and listen to instructions and take on board. So that was my style. I really was able to maintain a level of clarity some people can't, and it's hard to get through to them. But I was. So usually I would have a little chat in between rounds. I go back to the corner and my coach would give me the instructions. He said, all right, make these adjustments or do this. It could be specific stuff. It could be more general. Usually it's kind of basic, really. It's like, all right, this round, I want you to carry on going forwards. Watch out for his left kick or whatever. Try and catch it. Try to do this. And then I'd have a chat and I'd go, yeah, okay, I'll do that. It's not really hurting me, though, so I can take it a bit. Or I'd go, actually, like, that thing is hurting. What should I do? I don't want to get kicked or whatever it is. Yeah. So we'd have a little chat and then we'd go back. And then I would try and implement what he'd said in an in or what, what? Or sometimes I would come up with it and I'd go. I'd go back to the corner. I go, hey, I think. I think he's gassing. I can. I can break him, you know, so when. What I mean by that is he's getting tired, so if I keep the volume and work rate up, he'll fall apart. And that's a. That's a way of beating somebody as well.

You know, it's so interesting because, you know, when you're doing basically any other sport where you're not getting kicked, you know, because even when you're winning, you're. I guess you're always only one kick or punch or headbutt or something away from getting knocked out, so, you know, you don't get a chance to relax at all. And I wondered. I know you're talking about, like, the guys in your corner. With, you know, we're very big on, kind of the whole man academy is big on how important mentorship is and not necessarily just for young guys, because, you know, I'm 43, but I've got a kind of group of guys around me. Some of them are younger, but they're. They're further ahead than me in certain areas of my life, so I kind of look at them. So what about yourself? Like, either when you started out or, you know, as you got to like the top elite level, what was the kind of the mentorship options for you?

Yeah, yeah, this is a great question. So. So when I actually started training, I wasn't really aware of the reasons what, what drew me to it. So I kind of started training because I'd grown up in an area which was a bit. A little bit rough. You know, I'd been. Been bullied, and there was a. You know, it wasn't the safest place, so I wanted to learn how to defend myself if I needed to, which often I needed to.

Yeah, but important, really important.

Yeah, yeah. And there was that. So that was one part of it, like feeling like you want to. Want to be able to defend yourself. And also I was looking for another sport to do because I'd stopped this sport. So that was kind of what I did. But actually it was only when I stopped training that I really started to see clearly what, what brought me to it. And so a lot of it was. I was. I was actually. I was looking for male role models and mentors mostly. Yeah, mostly male. I was looking and I went to the gym and there was this, you know, my original coach. There was this guy who was there every time. My dad was actually very, very. He was a workaholic. And he wasn't. He was. He wasn't very. He wasn't there. He wasn't very present as in my, my childhood. So he didn't do a lot of. Of the sort of raising of me. And so I had my mom and then I had this go to the gym and there's this older male figure who's present there all the time. And it was. Felt very. It felt nice.

Yeah.

And then when you start doing well, they pay attention to you in the sense that they give you attention, they give you positive feedback and they'll teach you things, you know, so they take interest in you. They'd look so that. So that was the first one. And then I had this other coach later on when I started competing, and he. This often happens in fight sports and all athletes is where an older athlete or a better, more experienced athlete will take a younger one under their wing and they kind of teach you the ropes. So he was doing that for me. So he was like, he would spar me and teach me lessons in training. And then not just that, but like so much of it is psychological. So if you like, he can give advice like, because he, from his own experience that someone else who's never done it can't do. So he did that. But also he was a special person. David Paquette was his name because he was also a really good, even before he did his end NLP stuff, he's a master practitioner stuff now. But even before he did that, he was very mindset focused. He was very good at sort of switching, switching mentalities if you needed to. You know, sometimes you come in, in a certain funk, he would be able to recognize that changes. And he was a fantastic role model for me and mentor and still is, still is really. But he was great. So that was a big one. And that's also, I think, a massive part of what I remember reading quite a few books on masculinity when I was trying to, trying to understand it. And you know, in certain cultures they have rites of passage where a boy will go away with the elders of the village and they'll do certain tasks or challenges or survival or they just get taught things and then they come back and there's a ceremony of some sort or a test of some sort. I think for me, fighting was that. So not, not fighting necessarily, but training was that I would go and these older men would take an interest in me and maybe fighting was. And I'd go into the ring and they would be there for me in my corner, teaching me things, telling me things. And then I would try and do what they did, what they had taught me. And then, you know, you win, you make them happy, you get a reinforcement and there's lessons learned along the way. So. So that was a massive part of why I was training. Helped me also grow from a, from a boy into a man. Helped me have different role models. I remember seeing there was a couple ex fighters who used to come in on a Saturday morning and they would be training super hard and they look like I'd hear stories about their fights. There was pictures of them on the wall, you know, or hear blood all over them and belts and stuff. And then they were like these really caring, loving fathers. They had two little girls that they'd come over and hold and they'd be doing push ups with them. On their back and, you know, holding one while they're hitting the pads or whatever. You know, funny.

That'S a really important point because one of the questions was about how are you able to switch it? Like, let's call it the rage, because I can't think of a better term. But, you know, you seemed like a. I know I've met you once before in person, and obviously I've watched your videos, and you seem like a calm person. So how do you kind of go from psyching yourself up to wanting to go in and is the mindset. And I know we talk about resilience and mindset in a minute more, but where do you get to with the mindset of you thinking. Right. You know, because your job is to go in and hurt someone as quickly and as dramatically as you can to put them on the floor. So how do you kind of work with that? Is that people helped you understand it, or were you able to just switch it on and off?

Yeah, well, it's different for different fighters, but generally, I would say most people, it's nothing personal. It's nothing. Particularly in Muay Thai. This is why I like the sport that I do is very respectful.

Yeah.

They say with my opponents, I used to always sort of the night before a fight, spend a bit of time. I wouldn't say. I wouldn't. I don't really pray, but I would always think about. I would wish for my safety, and I'd wish for their safety, you know? Yeah, it was nothing personal to them. I knew the rules. They knew the rules. And it was just. It was actually just a challenge. It was a challenge to become better. So the better that person was, the better I needed to become. And the more. The more. The bigger the challenge. So it was all about a challenge, really. And it was. I was like, yeah, there is, you know, it is about, you know, winning by stoppage, hurting them with this, hurting with that. But it's more like. I saw it more skill. It was more of a chess game of skill. Who was. Who was able to land more. He was able to do this. Could you stop what I'm trying to do? Can I stop what you're trying to do? So it wasn't actually like, I want to hurt this guy and do this and that. It was actually just, I want to. I want to win, and I wanted. We're both the rules, and it's fair and it's safe. We touch gloves, respect. But you're gonna try and elbow me in the head, I'm gonna Try and elbow you in the head. Like it's so. But also that gets normalized over time. So I think an interesting thing for me lately is realizing how unnormal abnormal it is to fight. Well, not necessarily abnormal but it's an interesting hobby and all thing to do. But it's again, I saw it as personal challenge and personal growth as opposed to egotistically. I'm gonna beat you because I'm, you know, it wasn't really an ego thing for me. It was much more just trying to get better.

It's so interesting to. To understand what it's like, you know, to go into kind of in that situation where to say you're kind of protecting yourself and trying to harm someone at the same time. I think the like said it comes down to a lot of mindset. What about yourself with, you know, when you won the first kind of world title, what was that like? Did you kind of expect you were going to win it? And what is so that you kind of, you know, it wasn't a surprise to you or was it one of those where it was. It felt like a huge like relief or kind of achievement?

Yeah, no, it was actually quite a short notice opportunity. So I was fighting on a show and I was just one of the fights on the show. Then there was the main event which was the world title fight. But one of the guys. So it was a Thai fighter versus an English guy and the English guy got sick. He had a virus so he couldn't compete. And then the weight class above mine. So they offered it to me and my coach and I said yeah, all right, let's do it. I was 21. You know, I was. I was still studying at university. It was a bit of a hard time. I think my granddad had just passed away like the week before and it'd be my birthday. Whatever, whatever. Yeah, so it was a lot going on. But what did I have to lose, you know, if I took it and I lost for. Yeah, yeah. So I kind of took. It was scary. I kind of went up a little bit in weight and took the opportunity and this. And then I thought this tide had like a scary, you know, crazy number of fights. 250 fights. I think I'd had about 20 something. And what weight would you be then, Greg? Yeah, so on that fight I was about 60. I think that was at 67 or 65 kilos, which is about 143, 145 pounds. And. And yeah, I took the fight. I think that that one was a bit Of a crazy one. I actually got knocked down in the second round, so. Which is a. Obviously it puts the swings in the other guy's favor.

Yeah.

And I don't remember much of the rest of the fight. I just got up and I was just trying to do what my coaches were saying, but I don't actually have much memory. And all I remember is going back to the corner each round and go, what round is it? And they would be like, round three. Tell me some stuff to do and I'll go, okay. Okay, so what round is it like? So I was obviously, like, a bit concussed, which is a bit worrying. I did what I needed to do to win. And. Yeah, and it was like. It was a bit. It was. Again, it wasn't an opportunity that I had necessarily known that was coming for a while. It just. It just popped up.

Maybe that's a good thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't get to think about it for too long and. Yeah.

How did you celebrate?

I don't think I was 21. I've probably just. I wasn't much of a drinker, so even if I had a few drinks and also because my body had been through so much stress, yeah, I'd have a few drinks and be totally all over the place. But also, I think. I don't know if I. By that point, I might have got to the point where I stopped doing that because I used to want to go out and have a good time and party. But actually, when. When I got wise to it, all I did was I just rehydrate properly. I'd look after my injuries. I'd spend some time with my. I couldn't sleep because of the adrenaline, but I'd go home and probably, like, I'd go out and chill with people and then I'd go home and just have tea and biscuits, to be honest, because I couldn't sleep. My body needed good nutrition and recovery. And going out and getting hammered or going partying is not what your body needs after, like, first of all the weight cart and then a stressful fight and all this trauma on your body. So, yeah, I think eventually I got smart to it and chilled out.

I think it's really interesting because even for myself, you know, you learn about your body and some of the events I did in the obstacle course race racing, where I'd be like, right when. If it was away from home when I finished, you know, we're gonna. Gonna go out and have a big night out and, yeah, you might have run you know, it might only be 12 or 15 miles, but you'd. It'd be three hours in freezing conditions and freezing lakes and you'd be exhausted and you come back and you slightly. I literally just want to have hot shower, refuel and like lay with a blanket on me, you know, no beers, no whatever. So now talking of the eating and fighting with yourself, did you have certain foods which you, you know, were your favorite things to go to? Because that's one of my mates that asked me. It's like, did you find some things hard not to eat? Like, I love nut butter. I mean, not that's a bad thing to eat if it's good quality. But did you find that the. If you're eating kind of fairly bland stuff for a while that you missed a certain food?

Oh, man. Yeah, like eating became a huge thing for me, man. I basically developed an eating disorder over the years from doing these weight cuts. Smaller and bigger and smaller and bigger because I started fighting at the same weight when I was 16 years old. 15. 16 years old. And I stayed the same weight until I was 25.

So your body. So how tall are you?

I'm five eleven.

Five eleven? Yes. So for the guys trying to understand how you're trying to keep that weight down because as you get that age, you're getting bigger and I guess you're getting bigger muscles as well.

Yeah, I put on a lot more muscle. I got bigger and I was having to just drop more weight. I should have, in hindsight, moved up weight. But anyway, so when I was, I just. I used to have the worst sugar cravings, man. I had a real issue with sugar. So it was really tough weaning myself off sugar every fight camp. And then that. And then also I was silly. I didn't really know what I was doing. So I think I was under eating. So I was like avoiding carbs and you needed carbs of fuel, you know what I mean? I was eating a lot of protein and vegetables and stuff. Yeah, that was silly. But yeah, my favorite things to eat was definitely a lot of sugar. That was all the bad stuff, which is terrible. Body just craves it because I was under eating as well, which was silly. But when my pre fight meal would definitely be like, usually it'd be spaghetti, spaghetti Bolognese or something like that. Definitely very pasta heavy, maybe. I used to get my brother, who's quite a good cook, and he would, he would cook it for me. But yeah, I used to love just loads of, loads of spaghetti, loads of carbs.

Yeah. Man after my own heart. Now, talking about, I mean, we said about resilience, what was it like, let's say, when you reach the, you know, the elite level, as it were, as opposed to kind of building up to it. What was it like when you first maybe lost? Because I know you'd kind of written. You said, I learned many lessons from losing. It's not as bad as you think. You'll learn a lot about yourself and your ego and it can be very liberating. Yeah, so what. Talk to me about that because it must be hard to. Obviously you've got, you know, physically been punished as well as. Then you've lost and you have to deal with that.

Yeah. So I, I have 35 fights and I lost four of them.

Right.

I lost my first ever fight, actually. So it was debatable whether I lost. But whatever. The decision went to the other guy. It was on the other guy's home show, but the decision went to him. I don't mind, you know, whatever. Yeah, that fight I learned lows because I wasn't. I didn't know how to train property properly and I felt very tired in the ring. And I didn't like that feeling because when your mind is saying, do this, do that, do that, and your body's not allowing you and you, you also. Fitness is in your control. You can't control how good the other guy is and you can't control a lot of things. But fitness is one thing you can control. So from that I always knew, I always trained really hard and I always made sure I was super fit because I didn't want to. To the best of my ability anyway. I didn't want to feel like that. So that was a huge lesson. Then I had a few other lessons. Like I remember I lost to one guy who kind of cheated a bit. I was fighting this Thai and Tenerife, and in Spain, they don't really. Muay Thai isn't as big as more kickboxing. So there was a kickboxing referee, he didn't know the rules of Muay Thai. And this, this, this Thai fighter, he was smart, you know, he cheated, broke the Thai rules, but the referee didn't know the rules. So I was fighting this guy, he was breaking the rules with a referee, didn't even know what the rules were.

What would he learn?

What's that?

What would he be doing to be breaking the rules?

So the first thing he did was, which was a big score for him, is when you catch somebody's leg, you're only Allowed to sort of take two steps before you do something.

Okay.

Whereas he caught my leg and, like, ran me across the ring. So obviously, I'm on one leg. I couldn't. I started falling over.

Yeah.

And then kicked me on my head, in my head on the way down. So I got an eight count count. I was all right. I got up and carried on the fight and stuff. But an eight count is a big score, so it's a 10, 10, eight round to him. So I was chasing the fight.

Yeah.

Then he did a few other cheats. He grabbing the lower back, sort of hyper extending it. He kept on sort of like we. We had to fight with elbow pads. He kept him pulling them down to buy time so the referee would pull them up. And, you know, he got tired, so he was just stalling for time, you know, I think he did a few other dirty little tricks, but that was the main one anyway. And then in that fight, again, I was. I didn't break the rules. My coach was going crazy at me. He was like, you're too nice. Go on. Cheap back. Yeah, I learned then. Yeah, I learned then that, like, if somebody is cheating and they're gaining an advantage and the referee's not doing their job, then it's fair that you cheat back, you know, Otherwise you're at a disadvantage.

Yeah.

So I learned that from that one. I don't. I don't. I don't instigate it, but if it's happening, yeah, I'm gonna lose otherwise. So.

Yeah, fair enough.

And then I had one fight. Yeah, I got knocked out once, actually. So I did knocked out once, which I was a bit frustrated about because I was very confident that I was able to beat the person I was. Stylistically, my style was good against him, but I just. I took a risk too early, like, so. And I still think if I played. If I played a smarter game, I could have won. But I took a risk. I went in for a knee and I got caught with this big right hand, and I was. I was knocked out, which was pretty devastating, but also it was a huge learning curve. And that was very liberating as well because. Took a while to get over it. And the next fight afterwards was really nerve wracking because you just think you're. All you're thinking about is, I don't want to get knocked out again. But actually, again, like the Mike Tyson quote. Well, no, it's not like the Mike Tyson, like the quote I had, like, getting punched in your face. It's not made of glass. The worst thing that can happen is you get knocked out in front of your friends and family. That happened and I was still there and I was still coming back and I didn't have any shame in that. You know, it's a, you know, the Theodore Roosevelt quote, the man in. Quote the man in the arena. There's a. Have you heard that one?

No, I want to hear it.

Yeah, I can't remember it off the top of my head, but basically it talks about the man in the arena with his. His face marred with blood and dust and spit and tears. And then it talks about the people, the observer there and it talks about the sort of the honor in being in the arena as opposed to being the person observing and judging is like respect to the person there. So there was a lot of that. I took a lot of like that. That quote was a big one for me over the years because when you're putting yourself vulnerable and you can be knocked out in front of everybody, there's a certain. Some people feel shame and. Etc. Etc. But for me it was, it was very liberating because I put my. I was. I was putting myself out there and taking a risk and risking failure and failure happened, but I was still there. You know, I still came back. So my next fight after the afterwards I was nervous but then after that I was like, I wasn't obviously I didn't want to get knocked out again, but I was like, you know what? I'm not that afraid anymore. Like, it's very liberating and also it's nice to know that I can come back from that, come back from that.

I know when it was Neil Mellor, the ex Liverpool footballer that I interviewed or trying to think which footballer it was or Swartzman interviewed who said, you know, sometimes having a defeat actually can, you know, like long term can be good for you because if you keep winning, winning, you can kind of get a bit lacks with everything because it seems so easy. And I think probably both of us know at some point that, you know, sometimes hard times create those lessons for you. But what about yourself with you know, trying to build up your resilience because again, you know, you've got to maintain your. Your lifestyle and say not, I guess not party too much and not drink too much and etc. Etc. And be ready. So how did you kind of stay resilient through those times?

Yeah, it's a process. So like I think resilience and I do this a lot with the coaching company that have. With. With corporate people is environments Anyway is about. It's a small, small practice, as you do on a daily basis. So you don't all of a sudden become resilient. But you know, like say you're training, you're exercising, or you're doing something there and you know you're holding the plank position, if you can hold it like that 10 seconds longer than you did yesterday, you're slowly building, you know. And same for the habits you have in your daily life. Like we talked about, sleep a little bit, but having more sleep gives you a little bit more energy in the tank to then cope with the challenges that life brings. Whereas what makes us less resilient is if like your sleep is bad, you're not eating regularly and good food, so your energy levels are low, you're eating too much sugar, so it's going up and down, things like that. You've got stress from work, you got. And this is, it's going to make us less resilient now you can still tap into stuff like you can still tap into. So when you've been through challenging times in life or whatever, you know, me getting knocked out, for example, or some of the training camps, I'd really, really push myself to my limits. And it was very, very tough and uncomfortable. And you left your, like martial arts training, you leave your comfort zone regularly. Then when it happens outside of that, if you've done it to an extreme level or you've done it there and you know you're going to be okay, you can deal with these challenges. So yeah, I think it's just a small, it's a practice. And that's why martial arts training is brilliant. Like I said before, it's slowly getting you used to being operating outside of your comfort zone. And that's, that's a resilience practice in itself. And then all the other stuff, you know, looking after yourself, eating healthier foods, having like some reflect, meditation practice, having a thing, having affirmations, breathing practices, you just get to know your body and mind better. And martial arts is great because you want to become a better athlete and so you do all these things there. But then the side effect is you're better at coping with the challenges in life.

Discipline you set about to start with. And even for us, I often wish that I'd have gone into doing martial arts when I was young. You know, I played lots of football, but probably martial arts and I've never pretended I was a fighter. But we've kind of said without with our two boys and they're still little tiddlers at the moment, but where we live, there's. There's nothing really around here, but we want to try and find something, if they enjoy it, some kind of martial arts, to teach them the discipline as much as anything else. Now, I know I wowed you with my story of. Yeah, I did kickboxing, achieved my white belt, which I know you're pretty excited about. And then it was at a training thing. There was a guy who was just a bit eager, and it was supposed to be like, you know, no contact, and you're just doing a bit of sparring. And he swung his foot round, and I felt his heel tickle the hairs on the end of my nose. And I was like, for fuck's sake. If you'd have hit me, then I would have been out of smell around corners. So I decided it just wasn't for me. So I have massive respect for guys who kind of can get in the ring and basically kind of put their life on the line because, you know, you just don't know what can happen. But I was going to ask you all about other martial arts. Do you. Or say other martial arts, other. Combat. Do you take an interest in boxing? Do you see. Do you know, like, karate combat? That's. That's kind of seem to have grown a lot on Instagram.

Yeah, I do watch boxing, and I appreciate boxing. The. The. The thing, it doesn't speak to me and doesn't resonate with me as much just because it's much more of a business. So I did used to train in the boxing gym once a week as well to get better hands. But I always found that there was a lot more egos in there.

Right?

There was a lot. It was less disciplined, really. I found that Thai boxes were fitter in general, and I found that I didn't like getting punched in my head as much, body and head, you know, So I do like boxing, but MMA as well, UFC and these. These organizations that are doing that, I think there's an element of each martial art which gets lost when it gets put into that. And, you know, even within any martial art, there's some ways of being taught, some ways which it doesn't. And like any tool, it can be taught badly and well. But I do follow other things. But I think for me, the special things about Muay Thai, which I really love and appreciate, are the respect. The respect that's part of it. The discipline that's part of it, the tradition. There's also, like, yeah, some rituals that God is a dance that gets Done where you pay homage to your coaches, your parents, your ancestors. And there's a lot of these things which are kind of a loss, it's a bit confusing and it's much more about Asian, black, Thai culture and things. And I myself haven't always been very great at teaching that. I think more recently I've thought about it a lot more and it's something I'd like to include and sort of come across. But for me initially I was about fighting, you know, I think, yeah, it.

Must be great for guys now that are working, now that you're coaching people to know they're being coached by someone who has been there and done that from a young age. What was it like when you then started kind of imparting your knowledge, experience etc onto the. Is it all guys you're coaching or are you coaching women as well?

Yeah, yeah, I keep coaching all levels over the years because Muay Thai doesn't pay that well. I've been coaching alongside whatever I've been doing. So when I was studying I was still coaching. So I've coached beginners, pro fighters, European champions, couple world champions. Like I've coached at all levels and I enjoy it at all levels. I enjoy introducing this thing into people's lives. I enjoy introducing it in a very safe and tender and like friendly way. Whereas can be intimidated, is intimidating, you know. So I enjoy that. I really enjoy teaching people. I like, I like teaching people how strong they are. So like, yeah, like smaller people, smaller women, smaller men, like who wouldn't necessarily think they're strong or everybody, you know, your body like once you learn how to move it well and in the right way, you can produce a lot of force. You don't need to have big arms and big things. So that's great and I think it's just nice. I really enjoy seeing people sort of, you know, their confidence grow and like it's a, it's a self improvement tool. So if, if it's taught in the right way and introduced in the right way. Yeah, so I do love coaching people for that reason.

You know, I think it's great when people take the plunge and like we said about mentorship, you know, if you can get around people like yourself who have been there and have got a wealth of kind of wisdom to pass on. And I wonder also for you with, whilst you're living out there, are you planning on staying out there for a long period or do you think you'd be coming back to the UK at some point?

Yeah, part of me moving out here was actually to leave my comfort zone. I. This. London's my hometown. I lived there my whole life, other than living in Thailand for a bit. But so part of me wanted to live somewhere else and test myself really, and challenge myself, you know, start a new, like starting again really. And it is hard. It was hard and it still kind of is hard in many ways. But also there was, there's been a lot of growth for me personally. I've been able to sort. And also the pandemic happened. I got here just before lockdown, so it was a wild time. But there's been a lot of growth and I really am enjoying the process about. Yeah, and these new things. I've learned so much about myself, but I've also just grown a lot from being here and I still feel like that's going to happen. So at the moment I don't have any plans on coming back anytime soon. I'm applying for a new visa. So hopefully I'll get another three year visa soon and we'll see what happens. I'm open to everything, really. It is a tough place, especially when you're not from here. But also London is a tough place and I've also seen so many people come to London. I've never understood it. I've understood it here, but I've never felt it and understood it on a deeper level. And so now it's really nice to understand the challenges that people go through. You know, like, for me, like some of the, some of the acts of friendship and kindness that people have done here are super touching. And I just think in London, I think my busy self probably missed the opportunity to do that for others. So it's definitely changed my perspective on a lot of things.

Yeah, it's funny, isn't it, how there was kind of the same. None of us were born enlightened. And I know you're, you know, 10 years younger than me, but as I get older, I realized that when I was in my 20s, I didn't know anything and I probably thought I did. And now I'm kind of, you know, I know how the world works a lot more than I did, you know, even five years ago. So it's a, it's a continual learning process. And were you particularly into kind of personal development in any other ways? Because obviously out in the States, States personal development is huge, whereas in the UK it's basically fuck all.

So, yeah, yeah, for me, a huge thing, a huge influence in my life was I used to go to this London Buddhist center which was five minutes down the road from the gym. And the Buddhist center was fantastic because I used to go to meditation class initially. Initially. So it wasn't about Buddhism, it was just about meditation, working with your mind. And I went to try and, and get better at fighting, which is ironic really. But over time I learned how to deal with my mind. It helped me with anxiety and stress, staying calm, etc. But then also it starts to seep into the rest of your life. You know, you start to notice when things bother you before you react to them. You know, you can choose to act rather than react. You're aware of your emotions a lot more. You're aware of things. And then I went on some meditation retreats and they were really like very, very big gameplay, life changing things. And then the people I met there. And I went there a lot for, for probably 10 years. Oh, no, seven years. Yeah, I went there a lot. And I still have a meditation practice and I still. It shaped a lot of my. The way that I operate now, that meditation nlp with my coach David. I read a lot of books when I lived in Thailand. Still different tools. Yeah, different tools. I'm still interested. And you know, everybody, like in martial arts, where you're an eternal student, and in life we're always learning and trying to improve or, you know, trying to better ourselves and the better we can impact we can have on others in the world.

So I think that's well said. It is one of those things. It was probably a couple years ago at one of the events where we said about, you know, if you can continue learn about yourself and, you know, become a better version of yourself, you can help more people around you. All right, well, I know I've already had you for an hour, which I appreciate, but I had two questions which we're going to start adding into podcasts. Just, just random ones. So craziest night out you've ever had?

Craziest night out I've ever had. Probably one of the ones in Bangkok, to be honest.

Right.

19. When I was living there, I didn't really go out much before. Didn't really go out much there. But you just end up at. Around like I remember just ending up at these random bars, random things, getting taken to these places. I remember one, I'd never been to a strip club. Boom. All of a sudden we're in a strip club and it's like way too much for me. I'm like, I don't like this. Let's go somewhere. And then you're in absolute Shithole dive somewhere terrible where you feel like you don't want to be there either. And then all of a sudden you're somewhere else. And like, every day is very random there. Every day is random there. And I remember, yeah, like, you know, there'd be a normal street and you, blah, blah, blah. And then one day there's an elephant walking down past you. You walk past this, like, rubbish dump and all of a sudden one day, loads of pickup trucks come and they have loads of strippers dancing on it. And they're advertising thing. Or the next week, it's like 10 screens. They're having screen. They watch this. 10 movie screens going on. All of them are competing with the sound and it's deafening. Like, it's just a very interesting, strange place.

Yeah, so especially at that age.

Yeah. Yeah. I was. I was very. I suppose I got my eyes opened.

It's always interesting. One of those questions, because some people come out with something that you wouldn't have expected. Okay, last question was, who's the most interesting person you know?

Oh, who's the most interesting person? I know. It's a challenging question. I would say I don't. To pick one. Oh, I don't know. I've got. I've got a lot of interesting friends. I really. I'm a really big advocate for, you know, looking at our friends as opposed to celebrities and things like that, because I think our friends can teach us so much. And I'm really fortunate to have so many good friends. So I've got one friend who's. I used to train him and another friend of mine and guy called Ed Skrein. So Ed Skrying is an actor now. I don't really watch a lot of movies, so I didn't notice. And I was training him for a couple years, but we just had great conversations. He's done a lot in his life, and I found out he was a rapper. And I used to listen to his music, but I didn't understand that his name was pronounced that way. Scrying. And then I was so excited when I found that out. But what I love about Ed is that he's his. His thought process and the way he approaches things is so lovely and it's so nice to hear and to learn. And that's why he's really, like, been able to be good at many things in his life. He used to be a good swimmer, then he's a rapper actor. But also now he's directing and, like, he does a lot. And he's also.

Yeah, he lives.

I like the way he lives life really. I like the way that he sees things, lives life and he's also his energy. He brings to other people things. So he's just very interesting person to be around.

Yeah, I like it. And you said something important. There was, you know, unfortunately quite a lot of people are still transfixed on celebrities and whatever they say is kind of gospel. And you're like, actually the best thing you could do is. Is cut out all the, you know, social media and TV and stuff from your life and just surround yourself with some great people and see where it, where it goes from there.

Yeah, 100%. Again, the gym was my first, first point of that I was a 15, 16 year old boy. I remember I got invited to one of the people's weddings at like 17. I was just kid from wherever, didn't even have a suit, you know, I had to go and hire a suit and stuff. Went to this wedding in France and there was amazing food, amazing things, stories, culture. It was just fantastic. And like. And then all these I met. Yeah through gyms. It's a lovely like melting pot of classes and cultures and I'm fortunate enough to come from a place with so many different cultures and things like that. But I think just that melting pot of ages as well, you know, I went to. Yeah, I had friends with twice my age and different career. They like at the top of their careers. But we were friends because we punch each other in the face regularly.

Yeah, it is important to. That's what I've learned a lot more about was getting around guys from different ages who, you know, you kind of feed off each other's energy. That's even with the podcast, you know, we're now up to nearly 100 episodes. But you know, I kind of, I think I said, you know, I. When I started the podcast, I wrote a massive list out of people I wanted on the podcast or thought were interesting and would reach out to. But I'm always learning from like yourself today and learning from different guys around the world. And it's about finding guys with the right energy, you know, which is, which is priceless. But so. Well, I'll tie up the interviews. I know we already had an hour of your time. What's the rest of the day look like for you?

Off to the. Off to the gym. I've got a few clients. Then I'm going gymnastics training. I've started gymnastics training again. I think practicing something new. I'm terrible at it and I'm very inflexible. But I love it. I'm a student again. I'm a beginner again. So I get to be humbled and I get to be, you know, the worst person in the class and know what it feels like again. I get to learn something new using brain. So I'm doing that tonight. And then, yeah, that's my day.

Sounds like a plan. But I appreciate all your time, brother. And as I always say, now I'm speaking to guys all around the world. I hope, hope at one point we'll. We'll cross paths again in person. I'll come and give you a man hug.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

I'll speak to you soon.

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