EP112 - KEN RUSK - PATH TO SUCCESS | WHOLE MAN ACADEMY

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Are you ready? Okay, so this is the whole manicaby podcast, episode 112. My guest today is Ken Rusk, an author, entrepreneur, thought leader, plenty more. Also a blue collar advocate which we're going to talk about. It's a term I'd not heard before and I like it. So we're going to jump into all different things to do with the landscape of men. But Ken, first of all, how are you and where are you?

I'm great. I'm talking to you today from Toledo, Ohio in the United States. And it's a beautiful day and again, happy to spend some time with you here.

It's great. And you know, I think this, I spoke to a guy called Brad Hart who is from the states last week and you know, the podcast now being up to 112 episodes, we've talked to guys from all around the world and that's what's great is getting different kind of get, you know, get different ideas from guys of different ages, different experiences, but also that live in different parts of the world because you know what's going on in certain parts of the country, people maybe in the UK don't even know because they just watch the news which generally is a load of rubbish anyway or agenda driven. So I just wanted for you, firstly, you're obviously in Ohio, but have you always lived in Ohio?

Yeah, I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio. I lived all along Lake Erie. So any probably 20, 20 to 30 minutes along the, the south side of Lake Erie. And yeah, it's, we, we were in Cleveland for a while, then we moved to Toledo when we started our business and we've been here ever since. So.

Well, I just before we pressed record I said I would shock you by saying I've actually been to Ohio and that was about 2015 when they had the obstacle course racing world championships out there. And so I, I raced, you know, against the, me against the world elite as it were. And it was, you know, we started early in the morning so it was really pretty cold. But it was, you know, an amazing kind of 12 miles of rough terrain and hills and everything. So that was my, my brief experience of going to Ohio. So at least I've ticked it off the list. But, but have you traveled to Europe at all and been to the UK or anything like that?

I have, yeah. I've been to London, I've been to Scotland a bunch of times because I'm a golfer. Okay. I've been to Ireland and I've been to Germany. I've been to Switzerland, been to Italy. I mean, it's, it's been, it's been really cool. You know, you said something earlier that is so right. I think if you get busy kind of living in your own little world, you don't realize the unbelievably cool stuff that exists all around this planet of ours. And it's just not that difficult to make those things happen and to go see those things. And, you know, playing golf at the Old Course, you know, in Scotland, St. Andrews, it's just, it's kind of breathtaking because you, you grow up watching all the greats playing on this golf course and the walk down 18, I was very fortunate because I was able to birdie 16 and 18 that day and it was just like, you know, the stars were shining down on me. So, yeah, there's a lot of cool things in this world if you just find the time to go see them.

Yeah. No, and I'll tell you why I laugh when you said you've been to Ireland because I've never been to Ireland, which is ridiculous. You know, it's about a 40 minute flight away and I still haven't made it, but I've managed to get out to Miami and, you know, been to San Francisco, San Diego, and I. What I love most about traveling there, not just seeing the new experiences, but experiencing different people and different cultures. And I think that, you know, the last two years where, you know, people have had their freedoms taken away, rightly or wrongly, depending on your thoughts on it. But what that saddens me is that, I mean, for me as well as a lot of people, it kind of impacted on their opportunities, experience things further afield. So are you able to travel freely? And what was that like for the kind of on a year or two years where, where basically people were told they weren't supposed to be kind of living their life?

Well, you know, it's, it's always scary when, you know, your government says, hey, there's these germs floating around and it's going to be devastating. And I mean, and, and then you're you're hearing different things coming out, and then you're finding out that the risk was extremely low. And if you had a bunch of other, you know, pre existing conditions, then that might have actually caused your demise and not this particular illness. So it was, it was very confusing for us because when you have anything that's brand new like that and the origins aren't clear, you've got a bunch of people that they, that they tend to guess about what the next step is supposed to be based on what happened yesterday. And so the ever evolving, ever changing scenario was, was pretty challenging. Now, you know, our business was we, we clean up, you know, unhealthy basements, so we were allowed to keep operating. But I had a friend who had 400 employees in the restaurant industry who he, he just had to, he had four hours just to let them all go. And so it was a very confusing time. I will say this, if there is a silver lining, I've never seen more people getting back to, you know, barbecuing in their backyard versus driving to restaurants or taking dogs for a walk or, you know, throwing a football or riding bikes around the neighborhood, getting close with their families again. So I guess with every issue there'd be there, there is an opportunity. And that silver lining was certainly prevalent during that period of time.

Yeah, it's a good, I mean, there's always a kind of a say, a positive spin on everything. And I think that's important to try and take something good out of what was, you know, a painful time. And you know what I mean, we, you know, with the whole man academy, we started back in 2018, and it was encouraging guys of all different ages, backgrounds, experiences to get together to talk just because, you know what guys are like. And you know, I'm not in my 20s or 30s anymore. I'm in my mid-40s. And therefore, you know, I've grown up around that where men just kept everything locked away. But what I saw in the last two years, of course, was, you know, that was. My example would be you could have a guy a bit like you said, with your friend. You know, you and I could have been in a consortium that owned three nightclubs, three restaurants, three hotels that were all thriving and business was great. And then through no fault of your own, your business is basically destroyed overnight. And, you know, we heard of examples over here. I listened to a really sad story of a guy whose father had a couple of restaurants and same thing. And he ended up taking his own life because, you know, he, he felt like he'd let his, his staff who were. Had been there for their entire career down. And I think that's where the last two years, and that's why we move on to that, I think have been a totally different test for, let's, let's say if we're talking about men than any other years, because no one's ever had to face that. But what's the landscape like for men in the US at the moment? And more so the guys in their, you know, say 20s and 30s.

You know, I, I think, I think there's been this whole, this whole new world of, you know, social media and social influencing and social marketing, digital marketing, Internet marketing. And it's opened up a whole lot of options for people. I can tell you one thing for sure. It's never been easier to start your own business in my entire career than it has been recently. Because, you know, if you're, let's say you're a contractor, if you have a pickup truck and a cell phone, you've got a company where before you needed an office and you needed, you know, staff and you needed accountants and needed, you know, we used to keep our numbers with pencil and rulers on pieces of paper. So, yeah, that's been kind of cool to, to see what the possibilities are. At the same time, I also think there's, there's a lot of guys that are, that are tiptoeing around a little bit because, you know, you know, they're just trying to be the same old guys that they were and yet they're getting kind of chapped here and there for the different things that they may say, think or do. And it, that used to be kind of normal and it would roll off your shoulders and everyone would have fun. And now, you know, you're in this weird kind of, you know, check everything that you say, watch everything that you do. And so it's kind of a mixed bag of, of opportunity and, and, you know, being cautious at the same time. So I, I think it'll come out great. But yeah, there's some guys trying to figure out how to navigate that.

Yeah, it's certainly a, you know, an ever changing landscape of. Because again, you know, for you and I, we didn't grow up with social media and.

Right.

I will happily admit I've done some stupid stuff on nights out, you know, that usually involved beers and your mates and maybe girls and God knows what else, but thankfully back then people couldn't whip out a phone and video it and then tweet it to the world. In, in, you know, in three seconds. So I, there's, you know, there's small mercies for, for that, but yeah, definitely. It's, you know, I think for guys in their, I mean, their teens, but you know, the 20s as well, you know, it is a minefield because everything you do is everything you, you, you write online can be screenshot and held against you. And we've seen people go back years and accuse people of stuff from when they were in their teens. And you're like, it's a good question of where does it stop. But take me back to yourself, because you started young in construction and for you kind of what led you into that path to start with?

Well, just to comment on what you, what, what you just said. Yeah. You know, I would say this. If you're willing to go back 15 or 18 years into someone's past to see what they might have said or done, then we all get to see your 15 or 18 years of your past.

Yeah.

Okay. Because judgment is two way street. Okay. If you're gonna judge somebody. So here we go. You know, if you're gonna expose that, then it's your turn next, right? But yeah, my upbringing was, was kind of cool. It was, it was kind of rural, rural America. And in Ohio, small town called Amherst and grew up there, loved it. Wide open spaces, as you would say. But then when I went to, to the east side of Cleveland, you know, When I was 15, I was in high school, and my high school shared a fence with an industrial park. And after school we'd cut through that fence and we go down to the carry out, you know, the little, the little store there, and we would just kind of hang out after school. So walking through this hole in the fence, you had to go through this industrial park. And I kind of liked it because there was lots of energy, there's lots of guys milling around and you know, things that, like dump trucks and backhoes and all that kind of stuff that young kids like. And so one day I just said, hey, what do you guys do here? And they said, well, we basically dig ditches. And I said, okay, well, I can do that. You know, I need, I need money to take out my girlfriend for pizza or go bowling with my buddies or whatever. So the important stuff, yeah, so I wanted my first used car. So I, I signed up, I knew someone that had been working there and I signed up. And in the, in the summertimes, I would dig ditches. In the winter times, I'd work in the office. And then I did that for a few years, and then our company grew so fast that they wanted to open franchises around the country. And they came to me and said, you know, you, you know, both sides of the business, even though you're only 19, 18, 19, do you want to help us do this? So I lived out of a suitcase for three years and opened up a bunch of branch offices, which was good because I got experience with somebody else's money, which was cool. But then I settled down in my own office here in Toledo, Ohio. That was in 86 and started with six people, and now we have almost 200. And it's been a heck of a ride.

Oh, it's fantastic. I love hearing stories of guys that, especially starting young. And I know, you know, we spoke to different guys who have just grasped those opportunities. 1, 1 a few months ago who was in Canada and the similar thing, you know, started off at 18, 19, and just, you know, sometimes it was like saying, Joe, you just got to put your hand up and say, give me a job or, you know, pick me or let me have a. Let have a go at something. And do you feel for that? Because I wondered when you're that age, I mean, the learning curve must be so steep when you've got nothing else to, you know, you haven't started any other businesses at all.

Well, I think, I think the difference is back then there was probably a hundred guys like me that all wanted the same job. Well, now, now because of this blue collar crisis that I call it, you know, you've got a much smaller class of people that want that job. So like, for me, it used to be, you know, me, boss, you, employee, why should I hire you? Now I look across the table and the kid looking back at me says, hey, what's in it for me to work here? And that's kind of cool though, because if I can answer that question, I know I have somebody and you know, I'm okay if they're a little bit selfish, because my motto is, I can't get what I want, nor can my company get what it wants or needs until you all get what you want first. And so I'm okay with that because if have someone who's goal driven, who's working for themselves within my company, I'm all over that. And I think, I think that's the thing, because if you find somebody like that man, because they're so, you know, the pool has shrunk so much, you know, you, you coddle that person like a baby dove and you give them every single Thing, you know, as fast as you can. So the learning curve is really, really steep now and really quick. And I think people can rise up a lot faster than they could back when there was, you know, a lot of competition for the same type of work.

It's really interesting because the economic landscape or the employment landscape, like over here, I don't know if it's the same the States, but, like, every single, like, restaurant is looking for staff. And literally, you know, some restaurants, I've been in one local, to me, where the guy was like, I can only accept, like, 50% of our capacity because we just don't have any staff, and therefore I can't deliver a decent service. So I can only let people in. Would you say then that, I mean, for want of a better word, that people are desperate for, like, skilled tradespeople? Basically, yeah.

So just a couple of stats for you real quick. In the US 167 million people would be considered full employment. Okay. If you look up what they actually do for a living, 77 million of those people do something with their hands. So 50%, almost of our population does something in. In some, you know, support role. Now, my challenge was, you know, back in our high school, when I was in high school, back in the 80s, they had something called shop class. And you could walk down the hallway and watch somebody through these glass windows milling a table for a leg, or, I mean, I'm sorry, leg for a table. Or you could watch someone working on a transmission for a car. Or you could watch someone, you know, cutting someone's hair. Or you could watch someone welding or, you know, making an outlet, electrical outlet happen. They. They kicked all those classes out of most of the high schools and replaced them with computers. Now, computers are fine. We needed to learn them, but why did it have to be one or the other, right? So that was step one, because you eliminated the accidental discovery of how cool the trades are for millions of future kids, future carpenters, plumbers, electricians. So that's gone now. And then, you know, I used to go out in the backyard, get some lumber and some hammer. And a hammer and some nails and go make a tree for it or whatever I wanted to do. Now kids are building cities on Minecraft, on these things, and. And that's not the same experience. You know, that. So if you couple those two forces up with the fact that unfortunately, colleges are really good at shaming parents into saying, if your kid doesn't go to school, he's going to be nothing or she's going to be nothing, Those three forces came together to really put a hurt on the supply of people who would otherwise have naturally gravitated towards those trades. And it's, it's like a, it's like a perfect storm against the flow of those people. And I, it's, it's something that I'm trying to talk, you know, loud and clear about to try and change that trend.

There's, there's so much to unpack there and I think it's, it's really interesting because it's, it's. When you look at the trends of, you know, men dropping away from those, I guess you could call them masculine trades as well. And you know, you look at the massive declining testosterone rates across the world in men, which is, you know, I think it's going to have a very big impact on fertility in the coming years and therefore population, which is an interesting rabbit hole to go down. But I do think that like you said, I mean, our boys don't go to school. We've got one that's five and one that's three. And the five year old just loves building things. And you know, the further we can keep him for a while away from computers because you feel like that takes away their, their creativity.

Sure.

It's just, you know, we all know you sit and look at TV and it's hypnotic and we know if we put the TV on, he could sit for ages and ages and ages just with his mouth open. And then we say, you know, let's get outside, let's build something. Or, you know, just he's got his toolkit and everything. And I guess that that pushes through to the, you know, I've got friends who've got kids that would rather sit in their room and play on their computer all night than they would do, do anything active or creative, which is quite worrying really. But I see with you, I know you've done mentoring as well. Is that one of the things for you that you kind of see has been the trend of, you know, moving into comp features and kids doing less of the outdoor stuff because they're too busy pressing little buttons?

Well, I think what happens is as an employer, you're almost forced to mentor or coach the people that you have within your organization. You know, it's funny because I hear a lot of people saying, man, all of a sudden I got to work on culture in my company. I know I have to worry. I have to worry about, you know, energy and color and music and sound and celebrations and I have to worry about all that stuff. Now. And I'm like, well, listen, I'm a ditch digger. I've been doing this for 36 years, okay? I've had to worry about that culture forever because my job is one of the lower ones on the. On the pole, as they say, right? So to me, it's no big deal. I've been doing it for a long time, which is why it's so easy for me to share this knowledge to other people, because, you know, you got to have a cool place to work or you're going to be a lonely guy or a lonely girl, okay? So, yeah. And, you know, the other thing is the thing about the testosterone that. That this gets a little controversial, but you're 100% right. I think we have some parenting issues out there because not only are the parents watching their kids stare at these screens, but they're staring at the screens. So as a family, four hours a day goes by without any real interaction. Now it's quiet. I get that. But what are you really doing? You know, I mean, what. What's really happening there? So we have to recognize that as parents, you know, we're. We're imprinting or downloading everything that that young person or that computer has, if you consider a young person being a blank computer. We're downloading everything that they're going to have for the future. And it really bothers me how we're all looking down at our screens and not looking at each other and saying, man, what the heck are we creating here? We got to think about what. Because at some. Some point in the future, I'm pushing her out of the nest or him out of the nest. What am I going to get? You know, what am I going to see? So that's. That's a big concern for me, I think.

And also, you touched on the education system, and I know for you, you know, I've obviously read your website and had a look at some of your Instagram posts, and I fund the education system in. In across the world. Fascinating. But I guess for the U.S. do you feel like that? Because it's funny, and I totally agree. You said that. It's like parents could be shamed if their children weren't going to go to college. Or maybe over here, it's that, like, people go, if we say we're home educating our kids and not homeschooling, because we're not. We're trying to take the school away, and it's more about just education. And they say, well, how they go to university. And you say, who says they need to go to university. And people like, but university, but. Right, Is that, is that what you see over there? And I know you encourage people to realize that there is another option that doesn't involve getting a massive debt saddled on you after three or four years.

Well, yeah, I, we absolutely do see that. And I think parents, you know, somehow all the high schools went from, you know, teaching kids so they could be prepared for the world to, hey everybody, we're now a college prep school, okay? And we're getting funded and rewarded and accoladed by all the kids that we push into college. That's a recipe for a disaster right there. Okay? So, yeah, I do see that. And, and the thing is, the same people who think, man, you, you have to. My kids got to go to college is really crying about the fact that they just paid an electrician a thousand dollars to wire an outlet in their house, okay? And yet they don't connect those dots. And it just makes me crazy because they want to complain about that guy. And yet for every 10 electricians that retire today, only five are replacing them. You don't have to be economics genius to figure out that supply and demand is going to work in the favor of the few. So for me, it's not about being anti college. I mean, if you're going to operate on my shoulders so I can get back out on the golf course, I want you to know everything there is to know about a knife before you pick it up. Just the same way as a teacher or an architect or an engineer or a banker. But if you're just going to school because someone told you you had to, you really got to examine the fact that that's never been true in the history of the world. Why is it all of a sudden true now? Because if you get out of bed to go to that college class, you've crossed 300 blue collar jobs just getting to the door and those, those jobs still exist. So yeah, and I, I say, I say the contrarian view is the way to go. Because if everyone's going this way, the, the guy or girl who goes that way is going to be handsomely rewarded because they're doing something nobody else is doing.

Yeah, I think that's really important. Especially if the last two years have shown me anything, it's that following the herd isn't always the best. The best. You better believe it. And I wondered, I mean, we talk a lot about fatherhood here at the whole man academy A. Because, you know, we say, and you talked about parental like you Know, imprinting. And I, I see myself with my boys, you know, the, my mannerisms, the things I do and say. You see them watching, listening, and copying everything that I do. I wonder for you, growing up, did you have a, A father that was there? And if so, what was your relationship like?

My father was. He was a traveling salesman, so he was there, but he was, he was, he was there like, you know, maybe three, four days a week, but not, not every week until I became like 15 or 16. And then he, he had his own company, so then he was home a lot more often. But, you know, I had four brothers. And so my dad worked at. He was a hardcore Marine in his day, so he worked our house kind of like a platoon because he had to. He had to. There was five boys under the age of nine. Okay. So he had to line us up and we all had to make our beds and he could bounce the quarter off the bed and, you know, he would tell us once and that was it. So for me, I just learned about the efficiencies of that because he, he fathered in a very efficient way where there wasn't a lot of drama, there wasn't a lot of baloney, wasn't a lot of crying and wine going on. So really helped me, with my own daughter to be really efficient and say, look it, you know, we're going to have this relationship where I'm going to teach you everything that I know and you're going to learn from the world as well. Let's not waste time on things that don't further that. Let's not waste time on. On things that are, you know, pathetic, like, you know, gossip and drama and rumor. I mean, let's just stick to what's real and what can better you as a person and what can prepare you to, to play around in this great big world.

So I love it. I think it's because, to state the obvious, none of us. Well, I say none of us. Some of us might be, but, you know, for most guys when they become a dad, we're not taught what to do or how to be or what to say. And usually we just revert back to what we. What our father was like and assuming that just because that's the way it's always been done, that that's the right way. So I always find it really interesting to talk to people and. But I notice that's why I laugh when you said, you know, five boys, because even with two, they have unlimited energy and, you know, until the moment they drop it is just. It is kind of carnage, which I love.

Right.

But, yeah, I just. I take my hat off to anybody that's got, you know, two boys, but five boys is. Is impressive. But I wanted to ask you one of the other things. I find a lot of guys I talk to either interviewing on the podcast, a lot of them say, I'd love to write a book. Now, some of them, they don't even know why they want to write a book. Maybe it's because they think it would just make them lots of money, but they haven't got anything particularly amazing to write about. And I know you wrote Blue Collar Cash. Firstly, what was it like writing the book? And then what would a guy get from reading it?

Well, those are two huge questions. Writing the book was looking back on it. Writing a book was kind of the easy part. The stories came to me pretty quickly, and I had a lot of people that were around me, even in my own company that I could learn from and talk about when it comes to relationships and emotions and future and vision and forecasting and goals and all the characteristics of entrepreneurship. So I didn't really start out writing a book. I started out writing a letter to my daughter, who was suffering from a pretty serious illness at the time, and that was a pretty scary five years. So what I would do is I would write to her about what I thought was important. Like, these are the things I think you should be chasing in your life when. When it's your turn. And those. Those concepts were comfort, peace, and freedom. And I say that because, you know, not all of us have the same goals and dreams. I mean, we're not all going to chase 15 cars and mansions and mega yachts and all this other kind of stuff. I met a lot of really cool people who were very, very happy, and they found their nirvana in a lot of unique and different ways. So for me, it was all about, you know, how do I write this letter to Nicole and teach her about what she should chase in her lifetime? And at the same time, I had all these influences coming from the office of people I was coaching. And by the way, when I say coaching, I have no letters after my name. I'm not a doctor on the. I have nothing. I mean, it was like it was coached by have to. So. But it worked. And. And so I kind of put all those things together and, and wrote the book. And, you know, I had 80,000 words before I knew it. And the, The. The really weird thing was I didn't think the book would go 10ft much. Less 10 miles. And it became a bestseller last fall. And I think the reason is the book isn't necessarily about being a blue collar guy or gal. The book is about, let's step back for a second. Let's examine history. Let's begin with the end in mind by saying, what do you want your life to look like first? Let's draw that out in amazing, colorful, crystal clear detail. Draw that out for yourself. Put it on the wall and stare at it whenever you can. And then figure out one of the many, many paths that there are to get there. And only one of those is college. I mean, there's, there's college, there's military, there's trades, there's tech schools, there's apprenticeships, there's, you know, there's all these different ways to get there. And that's always been true. It's not untrue now. Yeah, but it always starts with, what do you want your life to look like first? And then let's find a way to go get it.

You know, one of the biggest things for me I realized is that so many people just don't ever do that, don't ever even think about doing that exercise or even if they did, it's, it's either they don't know where to start, they wouldn't have any structure, or it's kind of like, I'll do it when I get time. And then, and then years go by. When did you. So I was, there's two questions there. But you know, I would label, as you say, the coaching, the mentorship as kind of, let's call it personal development if we put it under one umbrella. So at what point did you kind of get interested in that world of, you know, it's more than just, I'm working, it's like, well, how can I positively impact other people?

Well, I gotta tell you, it was a little bit selfish and, and, and it was a little bit, you know, kind of like a light bulb. So the more people in our company that I could have conversations with that could then draw their future, and then they became self managing, they became self directed, they became goal oriented. It was almost like, hey, Ken, thanks for the training, now get out of my way and let me do it. So I realized that there was so much power in a lot of people rowing the boat in the same direction for themselves though, not for the team. And that's, that's different than you hear a lot, A lot of times it's all, we're all rowing for the team, you know, so we could win the gold medal. I wanted each one of these people to win for themselves constantly. Whether it was a three month goal or a six month or a year, or a two year or ten year goal. I wanted them to chase multiple things at the same time because the more people that I could do, I could, that I could do that with the, the less people I had to watch, in other words, or manage.

Yeah.

And at that point the power just took over and my company just went crazy. And I just kept gathering more and more and more of these people on the team. And if you weren't chasing something, you weren't working here. It's just that simple. So all I can tell you is, you know, you talk about Elon Musk and how much brain power he has or Steven Jobs or whatever and how they use more of their brain than other people. I don't know. I think the answer to that is pretty clear. They see things, you know, they see things in a big way and they see things in the future and they see things that they want to do. We all have the ability to visualize, just take, take a typical vacation. We are all experts at planning and executing and anticipating our vacation this fall or next spring. We're great at that. But why should we stop there? You should anticipate everything in your life. And the more people you can find to do that, the more power there is in that group and the farther your company will travel with or without you, by the way, which is, which is really kind of cool because then you get, you get the ability to, to manage less and grow more. And it's just a really fun way to work, knowing that everyone's out there trying to make something happen for themselves.

I think it's so important to have some time to be, you know, reflective of what you want in life, you know, where you want to go, what you want to achieve. And yeah, my big thing is, you know, we were never really taught any of that at school. And you know, for, for a lot of people, they kind of see that the only path I know we've gone back to the college thing, but is, you know, go to school, get qualifications, you know, get a, some kind of, you know, letters after your name or certificates and then work for someone else and that's it for the rest of your life. And you're like, I think it's great to go and work for someone else because can gain experience. But you know, being taught even to go and start your own business or your own side hustle can be such A big learning experience. But, yeah, we're just not, you know, we're just not taught that kind of thing over here. Whether that.

Yeah, and. And I think the interesting thing there is we have the same thing. So, okay, you got to go to high school, you got to get good grades, you got to get a good ACT score, then you got to get a good scholarship, and then you got to get a degree, and then you got to get a job. And if you do all those things, then you can start living. Wrong. Okay, let's pick what the living looks like first, and then let's find the myriad of different ways that you can go there. Again, only one of those paths being college. And. And it's so funny how we've reinvented the wheel at our own detriment, because all the people that are pushing for a higher education are complaining about the plumber who just. And by the way, you know, that plumber is making $200,000 a year. Okay, but he's just a plumber or she's just a welder. Yeah, it's really odd to see the dichotomy in that. And that's why, again, I wrote the book to get as many. What I really wanted to do was, was to let people know that no matter what, you are in control, especially if you work for yourself or if you work in a skilled trade, you're in control of your own input, your output, the quality of that output. You're in charge of, you know, the. The. Your schedule. You're in charge of your day. You're in charge of, you know, the financial gains that you have. You don't get that when you're sitting in some cubicle or some office building on the 15th floor, and you have no idea what part you play in this whole bigger wheel. So there's a lot to be learned. There's a lot of advantages to that. And all I'm saying is, you know, for the people who shouldn't go to college, let me tell you the best way to try to make your life work, because it's. It's worked for me and a lot of my friends, and I. I think it's a great path to follow.

I think it's so important. I mean, again, we've got guys from all around the world that listen to the podcast, but I would say about 75% of them from the UK and then about 15 from the US and then dotted around. And that's why it's cool when sometimes I'll get an email or message from A guy from somewhere maybe I've never even heard of in the world that will have listened to it, maybe an hour's podcast, but they'll have taken one sentence or one golden nugget, and that will be the, the spark that maybe they think, you know what, I could start a business or I'm gonna get in insane shape, or all these different things that I think could just motivate the guy to, you know, like, learn what's important in life for him and I. There's. There's a guy who runs a podcast. He's based out in Tampa actually at the moment, but it was a podcast called It's Gone Out My Head Now. But it's basically about designing our life by design. And I remember listening to that seven years ago, and him basically, you know, saying, echoing what you said about, you know, even sitting down and saying, look, what do you want your life to be like? You know, the, the kind of ultimate goal and then work back from there. And I was still working the city, and I was working at a desk 200 hours a month, not particularly enjoying it. And I was like, well, for one, I know it's not this. You know, that's. That's priority number one is know that.

Right.

You know, what I've got isn't what I want. And it was, you know, I wanted more freedom and a bit more kind of impact in my life. But that's why we with the podcast. I'm very much about guys taking some time to reflect on what they want out life and listening to guys like yourself and anybody else in kind of a personal development sphere. But I wanted for you other guys in the personal development, because I saw that, unless I'm mistaken, you've got a quote from Tony Robbins saying that what you did is great. So I just wondered how that came about.

Well, I, I've. I worked with Tony Robbins, has a book out called Life Force that he wrote with a couple of amazing doctors. And they, they really talk about the possibilities of keeping yourself healthy and, and injury free, you know, as long as you can. And I'm a golfer, so that's. That resonated with me. So I went to see some of his clinics in Naples, Florida, and we, we started a program where, you know, they're, they're maintaining who I am better than I would on my own. So it's nice to have partners in health, almost like an athlete does.

Yeah.

And so he was running that, and I, I knew his doctor friends and I, I just communicated with and through him to the doctors, to him. And he was happy to do it because he understands exactly where I'm coming from. And when he looked at my stuff and kind of delved deeper into it, he was like, you know, nobody's really talking about this stuff. You know, they. They all say that you should have vision for the future. You should do it. But then they always end it with, you know, I'm a PhD or I'm a psychologist or a clinical this or that. And, you know, and here's the thing about being an entrepreneur, okay? Everyone says, well, okay, well, Kenny, you're lucky you're that entrepreneur guy. Nonsense. Okay? There's about nine characteristics to be an entre on being an entrepreneur. Persistence, resilience, faith, initiative, all those kinds of things, okay? Humility, charity, all that stuff.

Yeah.

Every one of us has those emotions or those characteristics within us. I guarantee you the only difference between me and somebody else is I saw what my future could look like, and then all those characteristics came out and just pushed me down that path. And that's why I talk about Elon Musk and Steven Jobs. You know, the power of your brain to attract itself to what it sees very clearly is ridiculous. It's awesome. And we don't use that because we live for Friday. We live for the next paycheck or the next bill that we have to pay.

Yeah.

And so when people look beyond that, they almost instantly become entrepreneurs because what they see is so attracted to them that all these little characteristics come out and just push them towards that goal. And that's what I think should be taught more in schools. Because, you know, you talked about so few people are willing to do that. This study, I just, I. I saw a study from Virginia Tech, and. And they put 100 people in a room, and they said, raise your hand if you have crystal clear goals. Only 20 people did. So then they said, okay, of the 20, you 80 can go away. Of the 20 that's left, how many of you write those goals down? Only four. And then he said, okay, of the four that are left, how many of you have that on your wall somewhere where you see it every day? 1.

1.

So 1 out of 100 people do something that is so easy. I can't believe we all aren't doing it. So it just makes. It. Just makes it. It makes it fun to talk about.

Actually, I think it's again, going back to we. I was encouraged, guys, through the whole man academy, too. And it's not always about you must set goals, but it's about at Least take some time to think about what you want. But like you say, don't just do it and then write it in a, in a jotter and then put it in the cupboard. Because it's like, okay, well done for taking the first step but not looking at it, manifesting it, thinking about it day after day can be part of the, part of the effect. But that comes back down to, you know, I went to the Tony Robbins event Date with Destiny in Miami, which was amazing. And like there they'd get you to do self reflective stuff on your relationship as much as anything else. And I always say I wouldn't be with my partner now if I hadn't been on that day because I wasn't entirely sure if I was going to stay with her. And the whole day that they did on it, I realized that I was being a dick basically. And you know, now kind of, you know, that's many years later, but I realized that obviously that's an expensive trip for most people is out of their reach to spend thousands to travel to these events. But you know, there's still a lot of free resources online, be it Tony Robbins or even our little kind of resources we've got. But it's just encouraging, guys, you know, if you've got 10 minutes on the train, even sitting down and saying, you know, how can you create a life that you're also in charge of? Because I see now, especially in this last two years, a lot, it's like there's a real drive to close down small businesses and all that does is then create people going to work at these much bigger chains. But therefore you are dependent on the state when they, absolutely, when they make you do things. So it's an interesting time for people with small businesses that are getting them destroyed left, right and center.

Yeah. You know, and, and again, you can't underestimate the power of doing something for yourself. I mean, you know, I had a lot of jobs. I worked at a bowling alley, I was a landscaper, I was a ditch digger, I was in, I worked in a bakery. I delivered newspapers sometimes. Really, I did a lot of things.

Yeah.

And I, I can remember working on these really beautiful houses, you know, on the other side of Cleveland and doing these huge landscape jobs with pine trees and boulders and waterfalls. And at the end of the day, I'd stand back and lean on my shovel and I would go, oh my gosh, that is absolutely beautiful. I call it the stand back moment. Okay.

Right.

And, and whether you're landscaping a house or you're building a something or you're fixing or repairing or you're creating or, you know, maybe doing some type of artwork, whatever it might be, or you're satisfying a group of people with a meal or whatever. There's that moment that you get working for yourself that, where you say, I controlled this from beginning to end. And I think that's what's missing because, you know, the stigma of being a blue collar worker is ridiculous, especially when you see the kind of money that they're making, the control they have over their own lives and the things that they're able to accomplish for themselves. I mean, nobody ever came up into my driveway, saw what I've accomplished and said, hey, where'd you go to school?

Yeah, where's your, where's your certificates?

Yeah. It's always been, how did you grind this life out? Okay. I'm happy to talk about that. Right?

Yeah.

But I laugh because, I mean, their, their opinion is that's the only way that could have happened. And nothing, nothing could be further from the truth there.

As a, It's a great story. And I think the more guys I talk to who have gone on their own journey and sometimes it's not been without. It's, you know, one step forward, two steps back. Doesn't always, it's not always progress in a straight line. But I wonder if you, apart from playing golf, what do you do for fun? What's your leisure time?

Well, I do, I work out a lot. I play golf and I boat. I have a boat. So those are pretty much my three. And I love to travel. And that usually involves one of those other three things. So. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot of fun. I'm, you know, I, I'm kind of a health hobbyist. I'm one of those guys, as I told you earlier. Yeah, I like to know what's going on, you know, hopefully before it goes on. So I do a lot of analysis that way. And it's just cool. I mean, it's, it's a fun way to live. It's a fun to anticipate all the different things that, that you want to do to make your life, you know, a little bit better.

Yeah, no, I like it. And often we'll ask. I mean, we send an E letter out on a Tuesday and a Friday that goes out to hundreds of guys. Okay. Dotted around the world. And one of the weeks I actually put on there, you know, just a reminder for some guys, like to question what you do for fun. And one of the guys messaged back and said, I. I realized that I work so hard and, and I've kind of forgotten the stuff I like to do. And as you say, be it golfing or, or running or whatever it is, to go and have fun. So it's always a reminder for a guy, you know, at the, at the end of the day, who knows when life's going to end, but on the last day of your life, you probably won't land your deathbed and say, I wish I'd have worked more.

Yeah, yeah, you know, that is so true. And I. I think life is like. Life is like a bunch of buckets. And I think you need to fill each bucket equally, you know, spiritually and relationship wise and work wise and, you know, quiet time wise and fun wise and exercise. I think you have to fill all those buckets equally because to your point, if you're not careful, you're going to work so hard, work your ass off for so many years, and all of a sudden you're like, cool, I got all this money now, and then, boom, you know, I have heart problems or I have. My knees won't work anymore or whatever. I mean, you do have to enjoy this path along the way. I think that's what the great. That's the great part about life is. We're all really kind of in control of that, whether we know it or not. But filling those buckets equally is something. I think that a lot of people need to step back and go, you know what? I do need to put a little more time into that bucket because I'm overflowing in the work and the stress bucket. But I don't have a whole lot of fun in the spontaneous spontaneity bucket or the, or the, you know, the, the exercise bucket or the help, whatever it might be. I think people need to spend a lot more time kind of leveling that out.

Yeah, I think especially we've had this kind of general discussion about, you would say, with social media as well. Sometimes the social media bucket's full up because people are on it so much, and it's like, okay, well, can you take something out of there and put it into the, you know, get out in the. In the wilderness and get out in nature. But. Well, I know I've taken up plenty of your time, and I appreciate it's been a real fascinating discovery of talking to you and also just learning more about the work you do, because that's what the podcast is about, is finding kind of interesting guys from around the world and drilling down on what. What works for them.

Well, you know, one of the things that. That I did with the book Blue Collar Cash is, you know, a lot of times. A lot of times you have books and you read them, and then you put them up on the shelf, and they're kind of like trophies. Okay. Yeah, I read all these books. Look at me. All right. But then you forget about what's in it. And so I built this course, and it's. It's one. It's one hour a week for eight weeks. Or you could do it in four straight days if you wanted to. It just depends on how fast you go through it. But what I wanted to make sure of is that I wanted to make absolutely certain that if you read something specifically my book, that you put it into practice, you put it into your own life immediately. Like the next day.

Yeah.

So, you know, I've seen these courses for 700, 1000, $1500. You've been to these places. I sell this course for $99, and you get a free book with it. That's $25. So, yeah, here's the thing. If you do that, I also donate a course and a free book to somebody else, someone of. Someone of your choice or someone here that. That could use the help. So I didn't do this to make money because my life was really good before I wrote this book. But I thought to myself, if I could find a way to get this information into their hands and then kind of make them do it, and then they could not only help themselves, but somebody else at the same time, I thought that would be a winning formula. So that's. That's kind of. That's kind of how we set it up.

You made me remember the term shelf development, where people often just buy books and I either read them or they don't read them. But like you say, it's kind of like entertainment. It's like, oh, wow, that was really good to learn all that. Anyway, I move on. And you're like, but what are you doing with it? You know what?

Right?

You know what? How. Tell me what you're going to implement. And often it's like, well, no, I'm gonna. I'm gonna get another book on something else. And you're like, no. So I. I agree. It's. It's good to remind people that there's that saying, knowing and not doing is the same as not knowing, which. And.

And there's also another saying that between knowing and doing is a mile of bad road. If you're not careful.

Yeah, and I've been guilty of it myself where I'll have, you know, I'll have bought a book and I'll have read a bit of it and then, you know, then seen another book available and bought that one and realized that that's been on my shelf for like three years and I haven't actually read it. But if someone asks you, but, oh, yeah, I've got that book and you're like, yeah, we've all done it, but, well, I'm going to let you go. I'm sure you've got stuff to do, but I always say, a, it's been a pleasure to talk, but B, hopefully one day you never know with the universe how our paths might cross and, and it'd be great at some point to maybe either in London or over the US in the flesh at some point.

Oh, I, I'd love to do that. That would be super great. It's been fun being with you as well. And, and again, you know, if. If you and I can help people out, that's what we're here for. So for all you guys out there, you got this and we got your back. So go make it happen.

No, I appreciate it. Lovely. Right, well, I appreciate all your time and I'll speak to you soon.

Okay, take care.

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