EP120 - SECRET LIFE OF MEN - JAMES HAWES | WHOLE MAN ACADEMY

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Okay, guys, use your reminder before we kick off, remember to subscribe to our game changing weekly letter goes out to hundreds of men across the world on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Right, let's jump in. Okay, so this is the Whole Man Academy podcast, episode 120, last one before Christmas, in theory. My guest today is James Hawes, author, speaker, psychotherapist, trainer, supervisor. The Secret Lives of Men is the book he has written and we're going to talk about. I'm really pleased to have you on because we've connected on LinkedIn and I've looked at a lot of your stuff and I think it's going to be a great message and a great podcast. But firstly, we'll start off with how are you and where are you?

Brilliant. Well, thanks for having me on, Anthony. So I'm based in Nottingham in the uk. I don't range from here. I basically was born in Suffolk, but I'm good. I'm just having a bit of more of a relaxing day, so I'm kind of looking forward to bits and bobs I've got to do today.

Now, I mean, we talked about this just before we press record, but the, the rise of people either deciding to or kind of being forced to work from home and the issues that that can face for, for men. But I just wanted to start off with, because I thought your story is really interesting because although many years ago you started down this path when you first kind of in your career you were qualified as a carpenter. And I wondered for you, at what age were you a carpenter and how would you have thought when you were a carpenter if someone had said that many years later you'd be a author, speaker, psychotherapist, trainer? I just wondered what you would have said as the, as the young man back then.

I think I would have had no idea or no inclination, not a thought in my head about the possibility. Didn't even know what a counselor or psychotherapist was at that point. So no, no idea. I mean, I, I Left school at 16. My mum, I Didn't really know what I wanted to do. I, my, my mum basically said you got to get a job. Come from quite a poor working class background. She got me a job into a chicken factory. So I was kind of doing that for about six weeks. You know, good money in those days, actually, bizarrely. But then I got an apprenticeship for to become a carpenter and my salary was halved, so. But that, so that was the kind of. I thought, I've got to get out of this factory. And I wasn't really thinking, well, do I want to become a carpenter? But where I live, there wasn't that many options, not in my way of thinking at that point. So. And then the stories evolved to where I got to, where I've got to now.

I think it's important always for guys. I mean, you know, we're up to 120 podcasts. So I've, you know, spoke to guys from all across the world and all different topics and I love hearing their stories because, you know, most of the men are over, let's just say 35, 40, and often where they are now is they had no idea they would be where they are at this point. Which reminds you, you know, you'll go through phases where you think you're, maybe you're stuck in a rut and you're sleepwalking through life and you can't see obviously five years, 10 years into the future and be doing something that's, you know, a bit more fulfilling. And I wondered, I mean, we're going to talk a lot about the book about barriers, landscape for Men, but doing the, let's call it being the therapist side of it, I wondered for you, how do you keep your own kind of. When I say barriers up, I mean, because if you're hearing, you know, sometimes traumatic things from people and, you know, their innermost thoughts, it must be hard, I'm guessing here, but for you also to kind of compartmentalize that and then go home and be like, I'm home. How are you doing?

Sure. Yeah, that's a very, very good question. And I think it's really important in terms of the psychotherapy world that we have kind of boundaries and ways of practicing that are really important. So one of those things would be we would have to have ethically and professionally supervision, which means that we kind of have to think every, at least every month, once, twice, however many times to kind of almost download some of this stuff onto another person to talk about the things that we're struggling. So there's that kind of I can't hold all of this. And then of course there's that. That other part that you know, personally you have to kind of be really secure in your boundaries and what you do. I mean writing notes might be one of those things. You're right. I'm just going to download this on a piece of paper or it may be, you know, you're having your own therapy. A lot of counselors still are in therapy and that can be quite important or other support measures. I've been part of a men's group for many, many years. So that's kind of thing that I would use that in terms of talking about what's going on for me and trying to work out kind of what I'm holding in my body perhaps and, and what I'm unaware of and trying to work some of that out. And the other side, physicality, you know, I mean move. That's the. You know, unfortunately I've not been moving too much in the last few months because I ruptured my Achilles. So which usually I'm on a bike, you know, I'm outdoors doing DIY or I'm really into wood. You still. But logs, you know, and, but you know, kind of stacking and storing as I say, you know. So all of that kind of stuff I think is really important just to kind of think right. I've got to get out of my head and get into my body as it were.

You know. And you said the physical side of it, you know, it's been such a common theme. If you had to take all the episodes and pick just a few common things. One of them is like getting out in nature and away from tech and moving your body to really kind of just help you. I don't know. I know we're going to use the word decompress because a lot of guys maybe don't give themselves that opportunity. But I wanted to pick up on you said about like men's groups. We're recording this off the back of Last night was our latest whole Man Academy dinner and we. We originally had I think 15 or 16 guys. As always things happen, people have to pull out for reasons. But I think had 12 guys at the dinner and a lot of them said because we live out in the countryside that none of the guys or any few of them moved. Sorry lived around here. So when you move here you basically haven't got any friends. And if you're then for someone and working from home etc, you're not getting that chance to have the, the laugh, the interaction the banter, whatever you want to call it, One of the guys, I mean, seven one, I worked in Formula one one work for Aston Martin, and he's just retired. And he said, I really miss that thing of being in and just spending time with other guys, having a laugh. And I wondered for you, at what point did you start realizing not just the value of men's groups, but just kind of actively getting around them, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I. Well, I think it's a really. Again, a really good question and a massive issue, I think, for men in terms of friendship, loneliness, isolation, men struggling to make friends and keep friends. You know, certainly after 35, I think that's something that was fairly common and sounds like you're very aware of. I think when I. When I actually, when I trained my. In my therapy course, one of the big things about therapy is that. And still I think this is true today on most courses is that it's mainly populated by women. So there was probably one or two men in a course in my day, that was kind of over 20 years ago. And in my head, the only thing I had thought as soon as I had finished my therapy was my therapy course was, I want to work with men and I want to create a men's group. I need men in terms of being able to connect with them at different levels. But certainly the men's groups we're talking about, it's kind of very much about trying to develop our emotional fitness, if you like. And so at that level and have friends at that point, at that point. So I was very clear about that. And that was kind of, you know, I suppose I was. I was training in my mid to late 30s. So that's kind of that crucial, classic time, really, ultimately.

And you just said it there, like being in the mid-30s, because, you know, I've been asked before about the whole man academy. And you can't try and appeal to everybody because, you know, there's the old trying to, you know, try and appeal to everybody. You appeal to nobody. And in fact, I remember a couple of months ago, one of the guys contacted me on, I think it was Instagram doesn't matter, and said, oh, you know, you talk a lot about. It's kind of men over 35. And I was like, that's maybe because in your 20s. I'm not saying that nobody in their 20s has issues with all, but I can understand what it's like to be a father, to go through different careers, that kind of stuff. That in my 20s, I probably. I didn't see those issues arising. And I just wonder if you. I mean, we developed this question of, like, what are you seeing as the landscape for men at the moment? Because I think there's a lot of confusion around and priorities are shifting, expectations are shifting.

Can you just say a little bit more about what you mean by that landscape? I mean, it's a really interesting concept, but just say. Can you say a little bit more? Yeah.

And I think, you know, the big discussion last night was again on the working from home and the blurred lines also between. I mean, we laughed because. And I have it as well, where you're trying to compartmentalize being maybe dad, you know, at home, and then the man at work who then, you know, might come out of his office and isn't having the interaction and isn't getting a chance to decompress.

Yeah, well, I think in terms of the. I think it's really interesting in terms of. Let's just take the working from home, because you've already mentioned that sense of kind of isolation. There's a lot of. We've learned, haven't we, in terms of working from home or hybrid kind of idea that actually there's a lot of freedom. We get a lot back, you know, in terms of lack of time to commute. You know, we've got more time, more connection with the family. So there's some real positives here. But I think the. The things that we miss is. And you use the word decompress. I think it's a really interesting thing in terms of even the transition from work to home. And I think that that's. And I, in my psychotherapy practice, I think that's a really useful way of. Because if we're not aware of what we're carrying from work, and we can just be upstairs or downstairs in our office, then go into the family. And we've not. We've not actually processed that stuff. It's not. We've not moved it. And we can almost then easily project or dump it on the family. And I think transition, the. Whether we cycle, train, car, whatever we're doing it get. I often say that for men, use that time to think. Look, leave your stuff at work and work that through what you need. And then when you're. When you're ready, you're moving back into another space and you're kind of think, okay, this is home. And. And I'm gonna. I'm not carrying that stuff now. It's. I'm not. It's not easy. Just. We're not we can't just split. It's not like that. But at least with we're becoming aware of, I need to move and trans through this transition into another space. And so I think that is a problem. I mean, it's interesting. Even with online therapy, you know, there's lots of fors and against, you know, I mean, I've, I know that in my practice, lots of men basically want to be in the room, they want to be face to face. Now I do do some zoom still, but most men, I would say, want to be in the room. They want to sit down with you, they want to be face to face, they want to get out, they want to move. And, and I think that's really interesting and I equally like it. And I think the interesting thing with therapy is that the journey, you know, the journey to the place and what goes on there, the waiting for your session and then the session, then the journey back. Now if we're doing this on a screen and we can think, I'm listening to you, or you're having a therapy session, you're then, right, I've got to sort the kids that soon, you know, so you got no space for that kind of decompress or reflect or transition.

And you know, what you just said, I mean, it was a couple of podcasts ago we talked about, even with, let's say, personal development. You know, I've been to a lot of the big events in, in the US and this country and of course a lot of them got moved online. But there is no substitute for and as you say, be it therapy or an immersive instead of just sitting at a screen. And I realize now so many men do spend a lot of time a looking at a computer screen and then, you know, just, just looking at that. And I wondered for you, what's your kind of relationship been like with social media? Because for a lot of guys, I mean, to study obvious, you and I didn't grow up with it, thankfully. And most of the guys last night said the same. But the guys in there, let's say 30s and younger, are having to kind of navigate that, you know, like, you know, comparing themselves on social media to things and, but, and of course there's some good stuff out there on men's health and men's mindset as well. So I want to, you know, for you, what's your thoughts on the. Or I should change that question. The guys that you work with, what's their kind of feedback on the thoughts of social media and the impact of.

It and Are you saying in terms of the way that we use it or the amount of time we use it or what we're hearing and what we're listening to from probably all of.

Those, actually, because they're all such big things. Because again, it's like some people say I don't use it that much, but it's like, well, what are you using it for? So you can pick any of those, really.

Yeah, well, I think I kind of don't like it, but I find it a. It's. It's the thing, isn't it, in terms of we can talk with young people and children who are kind of natives in this area. You know, they've just grown up with it. And, and for me, I find that I can waste a lot of time. You know, I can in terms of scrolling and it's a real difficult discipline that I'm having to work, work with. And I, I try and just leave my phone alone. You know, I've like, I have dog, a dog walk. I, I absolutely have a discipline. No, I don't turn my phone at all. And I find that really useful. Just think I've just had space here just with my dog in nature. And so, and, and I've got also, so I'm trying to leave it alone. And that's why I like DIY or stuff, because I'm thinking I want to get my hands. I don't want that, I just want it. And so I think there's a real discipline there. And I know also that when I engage in social media, like, you know, posts that, you know, men or masculinity, I again can find myself, you can spend, you know, a long time thinking, reflecting, and then I'm going to put a really good or clever comment back here, you know, and, you know, ego going in there, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I just think, really, does it really matter? They don't. That doesn't matter to them. It wastes so much time with very little stuff coming back, you know, so I've got an ambivalent relationship with it. I, I think it's a constant discipline. And all the young people I work with, you know, who are kind of born with this stuff, they're also having to work out a discipline of like, you know, it becomes, it's natural to them. But when. What is it doing to me and how can I learn to put it down? So some, some clients I work with, couples especially, you know, kind of looking at kind of screens in the bedroom. We're talking about Kind of intimacy. So. Well what. And again it's so natural to have screens in the bedroom. Might be a big screen, might be a little screens. And one of my views is that you know, and this feels like an old, old school stuff or look, just leave screens out your bedroom.

Yeah.

You know, if we're taught we're talking about sleep and we're talking about intimacy, not that you know, just sex is in the bedroom as it were. But, but the sense of this is this sleep is almost sacred and we need to look after it and actually let's give ourselves space from the screens which is a kind of is. And. But so many couples, you know, be in bed and they'll be on their screens. Yeah. You know, and you think well there's just these disciplines that leave you leave your phone alone, leave it in a drawer somewhere, something. You know. I have a cover on mine which I kind of. What you cover on your phone for? Well, one of the things is that I can't see it flashing up, you know, so I just can't see anything happening and I've turned off most of the beeping and all that kind of stuff just so I'm not. It's not kind of mastering me as it were.

Well you and you said there about sleep A to state the obvious being important but B I mean we covered it in our. We've got an online called energy protocol course and we try and cover mindset, fitness, sleep, nutrition, you know, all the things that roll together. But one of the things was trying to create a, let's call it, you know, a peaceful Zen like environment in your bedroom and having notifications and stuff. But it was a guy I was listening to the other day who and I've done it myself where you find yourself waking up and the first thing you do is like especially because often people's alarm will be on their phone as well.

Yeah.

And you know we are a big one for trying to get some kind of old school alarm clock because not many people get have the luxury of just waking up whenever they want to. That's in an ideal world. But I wanted for you. I saw the. The comment by or the quote by Brian Moore that you had on your website which is it is possible to come across as bullish, argumentative, forceful, mouthy and yet be absolutely crippled emotionally. And I would link that back to it makes you wonder in years to come what people's reliance on mobile phones and just scrolling how that will affect you because we spoke last night so many people can be keyboard warriors where they're very. We can all do it. I'm going to write this and this. But if you were sitting face to face, you probably wouldn't do it. And I wondered for you, with the, primarily the men you work with, do you see social media as one of the issues they come to you with or is it just one of the many?

I would say I hardly ever met men in my thorough practice, hardly ever talk about social media. I equally. They never really talked about COVID neither. You know, people say oh, and they, they didn't. I mean, I generally. So I mean, just. Yeah, staying on your, on your point. I, I mean it is an issue, I mean and I think. But I think it's something about, it's a bit like, oh, just. I'll flip it over here with young people and parents. The, the I, I get a lot of parents talk to me about, you know, young people using social media or gaming or stuff like that. And you know, and I know in terms the hours that, you know, it was only probably about 10 to 15 years ago where we were, we were thinking two hours on social media on a screen was kind of too much. You know, we're now talking about five to six hours a day would be absolutely normal. You know, so you can put in easily a 50 to 60 hour week just on screens. But for young people, and that's, that's fairly normal I think for a lot of people. So for me it's like we're not going to stop it. It's going to take over some of our time. You know, it's a bit like, you know, going back to the past. Well, you know, when I was carpenter, for instance, or it meant men with a newspaper, you know, it's just like, right, I'm opening my newspaper, you know, classically at home, your wife's talking to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Reading the paper. So it's a, it's. I don't want to be an old codger. The idea of, look, things are developing, we're not gonna, we're not gonna stop this. But so this comes down to kind of a discipline of how are we going to manage it. And I think young people, I trust young people enough that they are going to work this out and say, yeah, if they've got time, they will use that. But equally, when I was a kid, well, I might have been playing out in the garden, I might have been in the den and stuff like that, which I think is all good stuff. Again, we, we probably don't want to go There, but I think the, the kind of freestyle play children, there's a real loss there and that's partly to do with culture and, and the fear factor within culture and for over, over parenting. But, but I think there's a sense of look, the world has changed, we've got to cope with it and, but equally we need like anything, we need to create disciplines around this stuff because it's not going to go away. I know a lot. There is some part of the culture going back to kind of the old, you know, non smartphones. Yeah. I've kind of considered because I think, well, because you can. The phone's there, this amazing computer in the palm of your hand and why? Because it's, it's really attractive and it's, it's a real way of pulling us out of the moment, isn't it?

I think we've, it's. Sometimes you don't realize. I mean I've done it myself. I spoke ages ago about the, I call it like the circle of social media where I could, you know, I've got my own Instagram account which I rarely use but still people message on it. I've got the whole man Academy. You've got LinkedIn, you've got Facebook, I hate Tick Tock and we had an account. But then I've got the podcast, we've got our own YouTube channel, you've got Spotify. So you could quite easily look at one, look at the next look at this, then maybe Twitter and go around and when you finish all those, you're like, oh, have another look again. And like you say, you realize how many hours you've wasted, but that goes back to. So a couple of weeks ago I interviewed a guy called Neil Kramer and he said he thought a lot of the issue men was about men drifting without a compass. And I just wonder if you, if social media isn't one of the issues, if you had to pick the top couple of things that a guy. And we could say women as well. It doesn't really matter because a lot of the time they might be similar. What are the, what are the main things that people are struggling with at the moment?

Well, I think in terms of my work with men, so probably 98 of my clients are male. Now I do advertise myself a lot in terms of anger, so there's no doubt that a lot of my work with men is around anger and when we talk about anger, particularly rage. So I'm really interested in kind of defining anger. And also I just want to say here that anger gets a bad rap. I'm, I think all emotions are healthy, but most of when we think about anger, we think of being an unhealthy thing and we classically go to, to aggressiveness, but there's a lot more to that. So anger is definitely something I deal with. And that's partly the stuff that I'll work with in terms of our own men and masculinity and I think relationships and communication, the classic stuff, I suppose. But, but that, and that's kind of ties into my work around emotional fitness and kind of helping men to kind of develop in, in that way.

I think it's such an expensive topic because you know the words anger or rage and because like you said, often people can feel like that you shouldn't feel those things. But you, you know, for me, I sometimes feel that where you're pissed off because something's happened or something's gone wrong or what have you. And I guess then for you, where do you take that conversation? Because it's, I know you're not trying to fix them. Is it then helping them have better understanding of their thoughts and feelings, if that can try and sum it up?

Yeah, absolutely. I, I think for me, look, I suppose when we talk about anger with men, I feel that it's often men's default emotion. It's, it's almost like if we talk about masculinity, it's, it's the strong emotion, it's the, it's the powerful emotion. It's the emotion we're allowed, you know, right. Early on, boys will be boys. You know, we expect boys to fight. That's what they'll do. So there's almost like a sanctioned, you know, men. And there's a big link here with sanctions, with sport as well, and what kind of emotions we sanction within the sport and world and why sport is so, so important for men. I think. So I, I think in terms of the work that I would do is to try and help men to understand their anger. What is it and is it the right emotion? Because if it is our default, are we then see an anger as a kind of conduit for other emotions that may, they may not feel they can express or have not learned how to express. Yeah. But just in terms of just rage, which is the one that I work with most. My view about rage is that it's, it's, it, it's the most powerful emotion. And again, there's a real positive thing about rage. You know, it's instinctual, it'll get us out of a lot of trouble without, without violence, you know, without, without abuse as well. But. So there's a real healthy side to this. But often we hear about the unhealthy and I suppose what I say about rage, it's got very little to do with the present and everything to do with the past. So when we hear Ray people talk about rage, it's almost like, you know, the red mist descends. It's like, you know, it wasn't me, it was like an alien. Something took over me. You know, I wasn't there. You know, it was almost trance like so. So this idea for me is like, you know, going from 0 to 100 in a nanosecond rationally. There's nothing rational about that. Like road rage, it's bonkers. There's nothing but. But if we took. Put it into a psychological idea, then it's. There's this sense of that look, if we say it's got everything to do with the past, it's almost like what am I hearing? And I think there's a real link between rage and unhealthy or toxic shame which makes us feel smaller. We go lower and then with. From that small place we go into a bit like the Hulk, go into this huge bit and it's go on the attack because actually we feel massively under threat at that point. And I think having a psycho educational understanding of what is going on there, as in, I think often rage is the trigger for rage is being belittled, patronized, you know, treat like a child, ignored, disrespected. Anything like that, invisible. Anything that says actually I'm, I'm. You're treating me like shit and I need to actually assert myself. But in the, in the assertion it goes into harming often other people and of course self.

There's some great points there. And I just. You flipped it back to. As you were saying. I was thinking, you know, we're not taught any of this as we're growing up to state the obvious. So for most men in me as much as anybody else, I'd never thought about any of that stuff probably till I was in my mid-30s and started to look around a bit more and going back to the, let's say kids and young men, I just wondered, you know, where do you even start with trying to help because you're not necessarily trying to have children go to therapy because you want it to be that they just. It's just part of growing up. I just wondered where do you start with helping a. And it doesn't have to be a child, but, you know, a young guy kind of channel his rage if that's the best thing. Because yeah, you're not trying to stop it. You're saying it's, it's a reaction and it's a feeling or have you. But it's about Walker. What do you do with it? You know, do you punch someone or do you channel it in a, hopefully a better way?

Well, I think absolutely. I mean, I suppose the way I work with rage is that number one that we need to, I call it the emergency break. We need to pull on a break because we don't ultimately the first thing is we don't want to do damage to other people and, or ourselves. And so I think there is a real discipline and work to do there and working out the triggers and, and, and what's going on in our body. And often say, look, rage of all of the anger kind of modes, if you like, is embodied. It's, that's why, you know, we're just, we're lost, you know, we're not there and we're doing things that we wouldn't kind of think of. So the work of being in our body is really important. I often say, look, men work their bodies, they beat their bodies, they build their bodies, they shred their bodies. Very few men listen to their bodies. So that kind of reconnection with body is really important. I think women have definitely got an advantage over us about the body because, well, frankly, they bleed. So they're in tune with their body and they, they, in terms of, if they become mothers, you know, they, they have, they endure that kind of pain. Us as men, we just kind of get bit fatter, you know. You know, nothing changes to our bodies really, you know, unless you want, you're actively trying to build them with muscle and stuff like that. So I think in terms of young people enrage, I, I, my view is that number one, I'm not, I've, I've done rage. I've absolutely raged in my life and it's scary for me, it's scary for the people around.

What makes you rage? What, what would be. Because I was going to say, you know, a lot of the guys listen to this will be, I'm gonna say young dads, but fathers. And I would say for myself, until I had kids, I can't remember the last time I was in a rage because I'm pretty chilled out person. But kids are a totally different animal and there's no control of them. And sometimes they do stuff and it pisses you off or something up, and they don't get it and they just kind of laugh and you're like. And you. You feel it coming out. You're like, where does it come from? Yeah, into a rage or what did. But maybe, you know, not to say you wouldn't. But what kind of stuff would kind of, you know, get. Get that going.

Yeah, well, I think you're right. You're spawn. Exactly. When I raised as well, when my children were young, younger, and. And so I think it's a. It's quite a common thing. But I mean, actually my first rage was when I was quite recently married to my wife. And well, it was. It was a rage. It was a kind of primal scream. It was like. And. And this. It came from a really long way behind me, you know, it was definitely in the past, but. And my poor wife, she think, what the. Have I married here? You know? You know, what is this? Who is this? I had to go into therapy after that. I definitely did this is what. The way before I was a therapist. But I think that that was to do with the. The mother. It was to do with the. The connection with mother woman and kind of all the stuff that was within my relationship with my mother. So. And I think actually, you know, most rage, yes, we talk about road rage and stuff like that, but most rage is in the home and to our intimates, it's to our wives or to our children. Now, now, why is that? Well, of course, because we're generally more real at home, aren't we? We show our full self because we know that we're loved and that they're not generally going to reject us. They're gonna. They're gonna come back to us. So it feels safe to express that stuff. But you're absolutely right in terms of. I think when we are taken on, as it were, by little people, you know, in our heads, we're thinking, hold on, I'm bigger. I've. You know, I would never treat my. At my adult or parent perhaps like this, you know, and when I was your age, I would have just, you know, obeyed, as it were, perhaps, but. Or there's a sense of. We go into. When we're. That we don't get what we're wanting from our children. We go into that small place. And this is what I mean by the less than place of shame. So the idea. I feel small and so I feel out of control. I feel powerless. These things that men don't want to feel. We spent a Lot of years trying to feel powerful, in control, strong, you know, and so that's where I think rage with your children and to partners. Often it's nearly always triggered by being patronized. Again, it goes to the small place. You're treating me like a child. You're thinking, I don't know what I'm doing. You've seen me as stupid. And, and so then it re rupts. So it's always, I think rage in that. Oh, that unhealthy rage is all to do with smallness. And because, you know, the masculine, the, the rules of being a man is all about being big. It's been big, it's been powerful, it's been in control.

I think I laugh because if I. And again, I've had these kind of conversation with, you know, either friends or, and, or, you know, friends through the whole man academy or sometimes podcast guests after we've stopped recording, where you'll be chatting about something. And I said that a long time ago. Throughout my early years, I was never a fighter. You know, I was too busy chasing girls, to be honest. That was what I put my energy into. And that's what I love. That's it. That's. That's why I was, that was my energy. But I always find it interesting with men's relationships with their fathers and, and mothers as well. But I've said plenty of times, you could say all of the mates of mine who always seem to get into fights or seem to have the most issues, all of them, I'm not saying it means that it's an absolute, but for all of those was because they either didn't have a father figure around or they did. And basically he didn't show them. You know, he wasn't there for them very much. But I just wanted for you, you know, what do you see as the effect on. Because just because you've got a dad around, it doesn't mean it's necessarily good because it depends what kind of person they are. And I wondered what your thoughts are on how important it is to have that father figure to guide you as a growing up as well.

Well, I mean, massive. I mean, in psychology we, we talk about the, the wound of the father. There's the wound of the mother as well. So which, the work that I concept means that kind of lack of not enough, not enough, good enough father.

Yeah.

Now, 95% of the men I've worked with individually and in groups would, would have a problem with their father. They haven't. They're not. There's a lack of, there's a wound. So this is a really common thing, a chapter in my book about it as well. And so I often say, look, whether you knew your father, whether you live with your father, whether your father is alive or dead, it doesn't matter. There's something that the relationship with the father, like the mother is massively important. And, and we learn a lot from our father. And why. What I think number the, the big thing, if we are living with our father, what we learn, we learn about how to express emotions or how not to express emotions because most men, I would say most fathers unfortunately and I think, you know, and we can talk about is it changing or not. I, I think are ultimately sometimes physically isolated and nearly always emotionally isolated. And so what we learn from men, and I think this is a difficult message in terms of we, what we learn about emotions at that stage is we're, you know, we're looking up to our fathers, little boys and thinking, okay, he may what, what emotions do we see from him? We might see, we probably see anger, but do we see any tears? Do we see any sadness? Do we see any other emotions? Anxiety and vulnerability? Do we see them? And probably not. And so what we learn is self reliance. And so we learn that I've got to deal with these emotions inside and I've got to rely on myself. Now this self reliance, in many ways you could think that's pretty good, it's pretty positive. And of course we want people to be self reliant. But when it comes to relationships and often I think when couples get to me, one of the issues is, is, is self reliance because ultimately if we rely totally on ourselves, we don't trust the other, the other person, we don't open up to them. Because I think we've learned I've got to deal with this stuff by myself. And that's where we could talk about, you know, the man cave, the physical man cave, the psychological man cave, the idea of what we've learned to how to manage our difficult emotions that I.

Realized we could do a five hour podcast on this because, and it's funny because so many of the guys I talk to, you realize there's, there's so much to unpack for men. And the other one was about, I mean you said the word shame and I think that's really interesting because you just don't hit, to state the obvious. No, you don't hear people talking about shame and the effects of as a child, if, and I probably can't put this very Eloquently, but that, you know, I've noticed where sometimes you don't mean to but we try to be very mindful of, you know, when your child does something wrong is not shaming them or kind of, you know. And it's a real tightrope because sometimes you react to something and I wondered then if you brought the, the shame level into it. Where do you start with guys if they're kind of talking to you or in the book etc about the issue of shame. Because I guess a lot of guys don't even realize maybe that they've got it inbuilt in them.

No. And, and shame. I mean you're right. Even us, for us as men to be talking about shame. Yeah, I think it's quite rare and I know that sometimes I don't enough. I always do bring it into the room. But men don't want to talk about it. I mean I think ultimately, instinctively we know shame. And it's because when Brene Brown's written a few, few books and she's written a book on, on shame, she did some research with, with women on sh. She started to do some more men and she said what men understand by shame is two, two things. Weakness and failure. And, and these are the things that men don't want to go anywhere near. You know, it's a bit like, you know, men not saying those words of I made a mistake or I'm sorry, you know, the really difficult places. So, so we don't want to admit that actually we may have messed up or we made a mistake because that would mean that I would go into shame. And I think, you know, I talk in my book about the, you know, the kind of shame cycle. But I do think if we don't get in touch with our internal shame and I think there is a, there's a gender shame on men. And what I mean by that is the shaming on men is very different to the shaming on women. Women are generally shamed for their, their, you know, in terms of their looks, their size, their nurturing ability, their, you know, so yeah, those kind of things. And men, we're shamed just for being a man, you know, so man up, you know, what sort of man are you? Man or mouse? While our masculinity, our view of men of being a man is, is very slippery. And that's why I think we're constantly having to keep running and moving to make sure that be seen as a man. And that is exhausting. And, but that underneath that is the you know, the gender shaming of, well, you know, you're really not much of a man, are you? Because. And I think it's interesting as I talk about this, because I can get this shame by other men because I may not hold to their views of what their masculinity is and think, and they're almost like, well, you know, you're not much of a man, are you? Do you know what I mean? And it's so. It's fascinating. Men use it, women use it, you know, and so I think shame. If we're gonna grow as men, we have to do our work on shame and shame resilience.

And it's doing the work. And going back to a couple of podcasts ago, we said, I think so many people. And I said it wrong. When I said people are too busy, what I meant was people are too distracted by life and things to actually, you know, had to have these uncomfortable conversations. Which is why, you know, a lot of men, you see, if you. If you talk to them, they would probably just bury their head in the sand, but maybe they'd listen to a podcast because they can do it quietly instead of expressing it out in front. And it also comes back to. I mean, when I worked in the city, you know, you might be on a broking floor or primarily a trading, sorry, a broken floor with like 300 other men. So these conversations aren't being had at all. And it's hard for men to find the opportunities to even discuss this, if that makes sense. And I wondered for you. I know you'd written about, like, practical tips to build emotional muscle. And I always think for guys, this, the simpler the better, if that makes sense. It's like if you had to. I'm not saying you have to pick three of the best ones, but, like, one or two ideas. Because if a guy's like, yeah, you know what? I need to work on this stuff. But it's like, okay, well, where do I actually start?

Yeah. So, I mean, when I talk about emotional muscle, it's kind of this emotional fitness program, a kind of 5k couch to 5k kind of idea that. And I think we, as men, we are kind of generally behind because of what we've learned about masculinity and how to express our emotions. So for me, a key one. And I tried entitled in my book, I suppose, like, feelings like a foreign language. So. So it's almost like learning another language. And it's not just language, it's not just verbal, but it is with our body as well. So I very rarely ask men in my practice how they feel because they'll probably tell me say things like okay, not bad, fine, all right. There's the kind of six words and that, and that's all we've got. And they give us nothing apart from I should always be okay. That's what you expect from me, isn't it? So this is a kind of emotional trap for a lot of young, for a lot of boys and men that they've learned I should always be okay, I should not be needy, I should not have any wants. And, and so right there it's quite so even. And this is one of the questions we ask as we start our men's group. What do you need? It's a frightening question. Yeah, you know, what do I need? Me? I'm absolutely sorted mate. You know, so that takes us into that place of vulnerability. So in terms of things to do, I always say look, you know, we need to, it's about disciplines, it's about creating healthy habits, little habits. And I want to, I want try to help men to stack habits on to already have it so it's not like a burden. So one of the things I say, look, if we want to become more emotionally aware, we need to start having regular check ins with ourselves, with our body and with ourselves. So that could be when we go to the toilet, ask ourselves question. You know, I've just had a text in the last hour. I could have had a conversation with a, with a client. I could have memory pop into my head. I could have had a communication with my wife or my partner and there's a, there's a possibility of getting loads of feelings there. Most of us, we just miss them. So I say look, if the more we check in with ourselves in emotionally is that we sort of make that normal. So tag, tag that on to something. The other thing with within that is absolutely listen to our body start to connect to our body. What's going on in our body? Are we feeling tension in our shoulders? What's going on in our face? Kind of being becoming a lot more attuned to that. And also face is really important. I think so I think men again we've adopted a kind of poker face, you know that default resting face. So sometimes I say to men, right when you go into the bathroom, look in the mirror, what's your face telling you? What's it telling everybody else? Is that being congruent? Does it match your inner world? And then I, in some of the groups I do, we'll actually it's kind of fun, but it's got almost like childlike. But we'll start moving our face so we might pass a smile around. Like, you know, it's like interesting, isn't it? On. Even on screen you can probably see yourself. I can see myself. That's quite interesting. What do I look like? I found my default face in a rear view mirror of my car. And I'm thinking, oh my God, this is what people see when I'm at rest, you know. And so I'm. I'm trying to practice moving like, you know, like. And just because I think we are. We do have this default face and we, we need to start moving it and expressing it because we often hear from women especially, I have no idea what he's thinking. I do not know what's going on inside of his head. Because our faces don't move, we don't express ourselves. So we have to practice kind of reconnecting with the emotional world. Emotional language. And another little thing which I often say is that's a kind of second part of my emotional fitness program is what is vocab? We need more words. This is where the foreign language. So if we've only got those six words. Okay, not bad, fine, all right, normal. We need to advance our vocabulary. So. And that means, I mean I use a feeling wheel. We've got one in my book. You know, in terms of. Right. Let's get more language. Let's practice that language. So I often say take three feeling words off that feeling wheel. Build them into your language for the day or for the week. So it sounds a bit weird to put on that feeling wheels. In. But words in. But actually it's a bit like learn a foreign language. The more we try it, the more natural it becomes. So I think that's. We have to do that kind of practice and, and work with that. And for me, kind of. It sounds boring and it kind of is, but I think we need to work with that. The other thing I think in. In being with our body is, you know, what have we learned about how to move emotions in our body? I know that when I get to certain places, I, I'm. I like moving, I like dancing, stuff like that. So I will. And music will move me. And I think there's really interesting to you listen to. Why is that music moving me? And. And does it move my body? And then is that a place to release that. Those. Those feelings? The same with films. When we're watching films, we might sit in a room, we might find Tears streaming down our face. The emotional fitness is. Well, what is that about? What happened there? You know, a bit like me, I always thought about, you know, kind of Billy Elliott, you know, old film. But you know, the thing is all about the relationship between the boy and the father. The way the father turned around and loved his son. And for me, that just always will bring tears to my eyes and take me back to that relationship.

I love that thing of finding what works for you and fun enough. Last night at dinner I was talking about how much, and I spoke twice this week how much I miss going to nightclubs. And that would be, that would be a release. And I was very much a dancer. I wasn't a prop the bar up. Me and my mate, our rule was, and we were on a budget when we were young, so you knew how much it cost to get in. How much would six pints and a couple of shots be the important stuff? Yeah, yeah. From like 11 o' clock, we would be on the dance floor till two and that would be a emotional release, that, you know, physical release. And you realize, let's face it, for most men over, let's just say 35, they'll be like, when was the last time you went anywhere and danced, let alone a nightclub?

Yeah.

And that can be one of those other things that you've, you know, I missed that I've lost that. I don't know that experience. But like you say, when you put music on that can take you back to somewhere and just, I don't know, maybe get you out of your own head a little bit. Now I wanted to ask you. I'm always interested in talking to guys who've written books because a lot of guys I know want to write a book. They don't always necessarily know, you know, what it exactly going to be about. But not just what was it like writing the book and how long did it take you? Because I know for some people it flows out from. Other people are like, you know, what it, you know, I had a block at some point. So what was the experience like for you?

Hard work. Really? Yeah. This is the second book. I started a book when my boys were quite young and I think I wrote about 40, 40, 000 words. Just, just stopped. Couldn't, couldn't do it anymore then. So came back to it probably another 10 years after that to write the, the Secret Lives of Men. Now that took me seven, probably at least seven years to write, you know, so it, there was a lot of stuff in there and I think I needed it because of all the work that I was doing with men in, in groups and training and individually. So. So it was slow process. I think I could write another book a lot quicker. Although I say that I've been trying to write another book for a while, but it's just, it's just because I. Yeah, I like writing, but it's hard work.

Do you start off with it? Let's say if we pick the Secret Lives of Men as the, as the, as the book we're talking about. Did you start off with. I mean, firstly, some people get a book coach or you have a complete framework or was it kind of like, let's see what comes out of you. Because I know different people have found different ways of executing the same thing. Basically.

Yeah, I. No, I think I just, just something that came out of me really. And that's why it took a lot longer because I, I kind of, I was right in this stuff and bits and chapters and stuff like that, or they didn't even have chapter headings. And then the wrong way around really, but I think it was the right way around for me. I kind of had got a structure and then the actual finished structure did not come. It come a fair way behind the process. And then I, because I took it to editors and people and they. I got feedback. And so before the, the. I think after the second edit, I think I then wrote the introduction and it. And then divided it into three parts which it came together and I was really pleased with, with the way it came together, but it, it took a long time of, of. Of moving.

I think it's really good to hear because, you know, it's a bit like social media. You can look at other people and what they're doing and what they achieve or how much money they've got and how many views and what have you. And you realize that everybody has their own path. And you know, some people can achieve things very quickly. And I think the other point is, you know, some people outsource it. So they, you know, I've read some books where you realize that actually it was ghostwritten, so which is in my view, cheating. But ultimately, you know, if you produce a good book, you produce a good book. But if you're going to sit and do it yourself, that's one of the main things I hear from guys is saying, I. Not, not saying it's the most important thing, but they're like, you know, I'd love to write a book. And I, I've been kind of, what's the word? Jotting down the ideas of the book that I at some point will write, which will be becoming a whole man. And that meaning. That's why it's really good to talk to you today. Because it isn't just about morning routine cold showers and how much money you've got in the bank and how fit you are. It is your emotional intelligence, emotional fitness. But also I wanted for you when you kind of even go one step high like spirituality and soul and I just wondered where you sit on discussions on that because again, it's such a. Some people completely believe in God, which is great. Other people think it's total rubbish, other people aren't sure. And I just wonder where you are on that as well.

Well, that's a good question. And that takes me right back because I as a young man, boy, I started out in going to church. I was, I was in, I was in the kind of very strong kind of evangelical wing of the church.

Yeah.

And I'm working in. After I finished sort of carpentry I went into youth work and most of that was in the church or in youth organizations, working in inner cities with, doing detached youth work, like all that kind of stuff, living in communities and stuff like that. So I mean it's a big part of where I am and I mean part of what, what got me moving from that was that I, I kind of burnt out at that point. You know, it was probably just early 30s, mid-30s. And then I went away to. And this is the only thing at that point in my life I could actually feel, I, I could do. I went away to live in a, in a retreat place, kind of Celtic spirituality if you like, for. In the middle of Northumberland and you know, in this really out of the way. And it was then that I started to get quite deep into spirit, a different kind of spirituality a lot more. And I like the kind of Celtic stuff, very earthy, very connected to the earth and environment and the past and, and stuff like that. So it's definitely part of my roots. I haven't for the last 15 odd years been involved in kind of church or you know, stuff like that. It doesn't really. I, I think if I was to find the right place in terms of a kind of non dogmatic, a embrace in spirituality and certainly I think some of that, that's maybe outside the church. I, it makes a lot of sense to me. I certainly, I'd probably call myself a trustful agnostic. So that embracing not knowing and I think even embracing not knowing in my, my whole Life is a real liberation. And like, no, I don't have to. That sense of kind of letting go of ego, almost like, you know, I'm not saying I have let go of all of ego, but the problem practice of. Yeah, you know, the idea of the I don't need to prove anything, I don't need to be anything, I don't need to know is such a liberating thing. So I think there's a lot of rich resources in spirituality. There's a lot of stuff also within men masculinity that has come out of kind of the, the spiritual world as well.

It's, it's a big topic. And you know, the last two podcasts we interviewed a guy called Jim Kyles, who, I kept getting his name wrong accidentally because it's J, I M and then an N on it, which I've never seen before, so, you know, you just naturally type it wrong. But he was a, a pastor out in the States, so I found it really interesting to talk to him and Neil Kramer, who was the previous podcast, who spoke very much about his kind of journey of exploration of God and, etc. And, and I realized for me, until I was about 40, quite frankly, I didn't. I, I just wasn't interested. Whereas now I'm at that age where you, like, once you have kids, or for me, I'm like, what do I tell them? What do I teach them? Because if I don't know myself and it's okay to say I don't know, but it's funny how it makes you reflect a bit. Like you said, looking in the mirror at your own face.

Yeah.

And you're like, what is the truth? What is. And the other thing I was going to say is what I liked about your book is I think for guys, they need, like you said, practical tips and advice. You know, you can get highly expansive on different things. You know, I've read some books where I read it. I'm like, I don't really understand what, how the average man is going to implement this stuff, but for you, it's the, it's the practical tips. And the last question I was going to ask you, I know we're coming up to our, our kind of Irish time, but who are the men who you've either read or looked up to or followed? You know, be it in the last few years or in the last 20, 30 years, I'm always interested to hear because sometime people I'd never heard of.

Yeah, yeah. So great. So who are the books? I'm just Looking. I've got my bookshelf here. I've got loads of books on masculinity. So I think one of the. The key guys for me was a chap called Terence Real. He's written lots of books on relationships actually, but I think his first book was. I don't want to talk about it and it's great. I'm just going to get off here. What's the subtitle? Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression. Really full book, really powerful book. And I think a lot of the other books I've got book in terms of the. The men's circle or circle of men, men's groups guy called Bill Cowf. He was the kind of almost seen as the godfather of men's groups. And he's basically got a book that is really practical and, and useful in terms of all of that kind of stuff. And the other book that is written, which was one of my key books in terms of masculinity is called the Will to Change. But not by man, but by bell hooks. And she's a. Well, she's unfortunately died a couple years ago, but she's a feminist and I think it's a really interesting book coming from that perspective. And this book is a beautiful book in terms of the way she. She wants and describes men and masculinity and a relationship with her father. So that for me actually was a really instinctive in hearing from a woman about men and their. Their love for men as well.

I think it's really interesting, firstly because there's like a new wave of let's say men who, I mean, let's use Jordan Peterson for example. You know, I know a lot of men that really enjoy his content. He cries a bit too much on screen as if for me, I'm always wondering where. You know, I always wonder if people get promoted very, very highly on social media, do they get pushed by someone or is it just organic? But what I love you just said is three people I've never heard of. So it's refreshing to have people that I'm always looking to try. And when guys ask me, I don't want to just say the normal. Because guys go, yeah, I've heard that. I've heard that. So to have three new ones for me is kind of like you've unearthed something. I always add it to my. I've got a long list of different books and yours is on there of when guys say, well, where should I start? I'm like, well, look, there's no necessarily starting, but why don't you pick these three books, ask them for your birthday and. And work through them from there, but. Brilliant. And I love talking to you because I think it's so interesting and for guys to just, you know, hopefully we've given, especially you've given guys just something to think about, that being strong and silent isn't the way. I mean, if they want to be, that's fine, but. But, you know, our events were built on the joy of getting guys together to talk. And it doesn't have to be that you're weeping on each other's shoulder. It's like just saying, like you said, you know, how. You know, what can I. What can I do for you? Or what do you need? And you speak like, you know what? Things are a bit shit at the moment, and people go, oh, yeah, I'm going through that, so.

Oh, you as well.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. So just to jump in there, that is the most important thing I think about getting men together. The. The sense of. Sense of breaking this kind of normalization idea that actually when men are together, they can talk, they will talk, and they can be vulnerable and that it's contagious. And it's like, exactly as you said. One man can say something. Oh, what? You as well, you know, and that's such a liberating thing of that. That kind of normalization process, and that takes men out of their isolation. So massively important stuff that.

Oh, I. I really appreciate you coming on because again, I've, you know, now we're up to. I mean, this will be the last podcast before Christmas. This will go out on the 23rd of December. So for some men, I'm lucky that we'll have a Christmas surrounded by family, and quite frankly, you'll be knackered by the end of it. But for some men, if you haven't got a partner or maybe you're spreading family that you hate, you know. You know, know some men that are like, yeah, I'm with. You know, especially if they've got. What's the word? You know, maybe they're divorced and they're with a different family or something like that. So it's a reminder for guys that, you know, even at festive times, even if you can find a book or a podcast or something that you can. I hate to use the word escape, but you can listen to. That just gets you, I don't know, your. Your mind in the right. Or, you know, your mind in the right frame, if that's. That's the right thing. And how's the best way if a guy wants to read a book, I guess. I hate to say Amazon, but would it be to go to website or.

Yeah, well, yes, Amazon is. Unfortunately you can get my book off other websites, but Amazon is the key one and I just like to say here also I have made an audio version and I'm hoping it's going to be released the 1st of December around there. So. Because I know that a lot of people read my book, a lot of women read my book and I know that men listen to books. So I'm hoping this will be another way. And that book will be available on Amazon, but also the author Republic. So it's a bit more of an independent. So.

Yeah, that's. That's great. And funny on that point. I haven't checked recently, but the last time I looked, I think 25 of our podcast listeners are female.

Yeah.

Which is funny because it's. It's men talking to men about men's stuff and it makes you realize there's a huge demand from women to just understand what is going on in a man's head. And we don't know either, so. Good.

Well, that's exactly it. But that's why, that's the part, the reason I wrote my book because I'm just. I know we've run out of time, but this stuff about when I, before I wrote my book, I put on a couple of work workshops or you know, open events that were free. One was the. This, well, basically 10 tips how to understand men that was for women and they were generally full, you know, 10 tips on how they will do the work. Women, I think actually for men, often women will ring me up, you know, saying want to send the husband to me? Or stuff like that. I then equally put on a kind of an MOT for men, you know, and no man turned up.

So.

But so the women. So the book really. I know that women will read the book and get the book into the. Hopefully on the coffee table or something. Yeah. As you know, I've written the book in terms of it. So it's a. It's fairly big, you know, it's lots of boxes and stuff like that. So you can flick through it, you can start. And I'm kind of hoping that if you can get it into the hands of men, then they may, they don't have to read it all. Just read some a little bit because that is the way the book is meant to be. Really.

I laugh because I mean, you beautifully touched on a point which I always Say one of the hardest things for the whole Man Academy was getting bums on seats.

Yeah.

Being men. Because often I had women saying, I love your idea. I wish you did. In women's one, I'd come with Jane and Claire and sue and whoever. Whereas the men would generally come on their own.

Yeah, yeah.

And you know, the only event where we then had groups was we had. I don't know if you know who David Gandhi is, but he's our like ambassador and you know, he's the. I think he's been on more front covers than any man in the world because. Style icon. So when he spoke at one of our events at Geese and Hawks in on Savile road, we had 65 guys in the room which was, you know, really good. And that was the only event where you saw like five guys all came together. And the important point here is. And hopefully you see where I'm going with this, I want the whole Man Academy events to be a aspirational experience, not a. I'm going to an event and I don't tell people. I want people to be like, hey, I'm going to this great event where James Horsey's speaking and this person and this guy and this guy. It was great. And I'm. Maybe I'm getting dressed up for it as opposed to. I'm going to an Ibis hotel with shitty carpet and we're going to sit around and. Yeah, that's great.

You're break. You're talking about breaking the stigma. And I think absolutely. If we can just make this natural, normal stuff. This is what we, we as men do. No shame in it. Absolutely. That's right off my, my hymn sheet, you know, the idea of breaking, if we can break this stigma, that. And I suppose that's why I, I talk about, you know, look, we'll equally talk about physical fitness, but if we can just like emotional fitness, you know your are feeling every moment of every day. Why wouldn't you want to exercise those emotions and get to know those emotions? But. Because the stigma is still there. But if you, what you're doing and the great work you're doing and the idea of this is what we as men do. This is just normal stuff. Fantastic.

That. That's one of the biggest things I've, I've only ever found one person that didn't quite get. And I appreciate they didn't understand what I was trying to do because maybe I didn't put it across. But that's why bringing in a mixture of guys like yourself who maybe can have a. Let's call it a clinical viewpoint, but then having, you know, special forces guys, footballers, cryptocurrency experts, entrepreneurs, all these different guys to make you realize that everybody has challenges and they're going to keep throwing them at you left, right and center. And it is kind of, you know, it's up to you how you deal with it has been, has been one of the big messages but. Well, I appreciate your time. I always say this at the end because we're not too far away from each other so hopefully at some point we will, we will meet either for. At an event or something in London or something like that because.

No, I love that. That'd be great.

It's, it's. I think it's important for us guys to not just connect but stay connected and, you know, promote each other's messages which. Always helpful. So I will let you go. I appreciate your time and I will speak to you soon.

James, Brilliant. Well, thank you for having me on. I've really, really enjoyed it.

It lovely. Thank you, mate. Cheers.

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