Whole Man Academy X TRIP Podcast

Simon, we've got a treat today, haven't we? We've got a very interesting guest.

Yeah, I mean, it's great. We've got Anthony Asprey on the founder of the Wellman Academy and also he's the overseer of the community within that the network and really looking forward to learning more about it. I, I saw Anthony post on LinkedIn to a guy I've met before called James Pickles and straight away noticed, you know, that looks interesting. I wonder if you'd be willing to come on and have a chat, you know, because, you know, we're always after inspiring people who are looking at life changes and how they can affect that change in others. And what I liked really about Anthony's one was the male focus, you know, because I think that that is important. You know, the work I do around mental health and well being as well. And I think within the age bracket across that spectrum, it's something that is always worth having a conversation about. So, Anthony, I just want to say thank you so much for agreeing to come on and talk to us today and we just want to really get to understand a little bit more about the whole Man Academy and how you've got to where you've got to, the highs, the lows, the challenges, what inspires you, what gets you out of bed in the morning. So welcome. How are you?

Thanks. Yeah, I'm, as a father of three kids, I'm slightly sleep deprived and most parents, whether their kids are, you know, grown up and flown the nest or the younger, will understand that that brings its own challenges. And now a kind of, let's say, entrepreneur, business owner of some description. I still can't spell entrepreneur, I always have to spell check it. But I still want to be one. So, so good. And I'm, you know, I'm up in the Cotswolds where it was minus four or five last night. Friends of mine that live, that are in personal development and very inspiring characters in the States, always admit that it's much, Life's much easier whether you like or not, when, when the sun's shining, it's warmer, you know. So, yeah, apart from that, all good and looking forward to jumping into some good topics.

Oh, yeah, fantastic. So I'll jump off then because I suppose the question that sprung to me straight away when I saw what you're doing was, was what was the motivation to create the Wellman Academy? You know, and I saw on your website your mission, if you could bring that to life for us, that that would be great insight. For our listeners. So yeah, as much depth that you want to go into would be amazing.

I always take it back to. I started the whole man academy to help the man that I was when I worked in the city. So I'm 45 now, but I worked in London for various financial institutions, broking houses, trading houses from when I was 18, basically. So I didn't go to university. I knew I'd probably waste my time there partying, trying to shout girls and mess around all the time, which, you know, was, was my priorities. But I realized that wasn't my time best spent and I might as well.

Get paid doing it.

Yeah, exactly. And I, you know, I would say when I started in, in London, when I was like 18, I. The first role I had was at Glencore, which is one of the biggest or probably the biggest kind of precious metal. No trading commodities houses. And I honestly didn't know what they did. I didn't realize how big they were because I think if I had have done, the 18 year old would have probably just been like, I'm not going for interview, I'm too scared, if that makes sense. But ignorance is bliss. And as a youngster you can have that, you know, boundless enthusiasm because if you don't know you, you're not worried by it. So I started from 18, spent four years there, then I moved on to being a junior trader, junior power trader for a few years for a company called ABB in Covent Garden. We all got made redundant, which was a really interesting time because I think I've said on a lot of podcasts, when you talk about, for men and women, when redundancy hits for some, it can be great if you've got a big payoff or you've got another job to go to. But for some, if you haven't, you know, your whole world can go up, flip upside down. Maybe we could talk on that as well at some point.

Yeah.

Anyway, it was around that time that I understood what a broker was as opposed to a trader. And I always say I worked as a junior trader, but I never, I was never interested in it, if that makes sense. Like I was jealous of some of the guys around me and it was 95 men, let's just be clear on that as well, who were like really enthused about the numbers and the data and the charts and the figures. And I'd just be like, yes, it's nice, interesting, but it doesn't really get me going if that makes sense. But the salary did, but not the actual, the, the Numbers.

Yeah.

And what I realized then was that I needed to make that slight transformation between being a trader mindset and, and I had people kind of come up to me who were my brokers and say, why don't you come and work for us? You'd be good as a broker. And I said before, the trader was all about the numbers. The broker was about knowing the person behind the numbers, if that makes sense. So I kept, you know, that, that career for many years and a lot of it was great. And unlike all of us here and people listening, watching, whatever, you'll go through phases where, or a chapter of your life where you might really love something or someone and then after a while or years or a decade or two, it just lessens the, you know, your enthusiasm wanes. And that's where I got to, let's say 36. I'll bring up to the, you know, the time, the kind of next chapter of my life. Myself, like a lot of men that I now work with got to that stage of the old, like, is this it? Is this what I'm going to do for, you know, if I was 36, you might say another 20 years of being in the city, earning good money, you know, let's say like six figure salary, ish, but not millions. So you're not going to retire at early age. You're good and you know, the trap is a success. The more money you earn, the nicer car you have, the ski holidays, the Miami trips, the, the, you know, all those things kind of rise as well. So I got to that stage of, let's say 36 to where I just thought, you know, what I wanted more out of life. I looked around and saw some men who were business owners or just were living a life of freedom. And I thought, I want that doing what I was doing. I was just bored of it. So I didn't hate it. You know, I, I know I would say if you hate your job so much that you think you're going to kill yourself because you're like, I can't handle, you need to walk out basically, you know, self preservation is number one. But if you just don't like it and you're done with it, you need to hopefully if you can stay in that role until you work out what you're going to do or at least till you can get a good payoff, yeah, that buys you a buffer. So that took me to 36 where I, the company were brilliant, who I was with and they found me several roles, but I had that really Imposter syndrome in one of my last roles because I just didn't know what I was. I, I knew the overall thing of what I was doing. But when you move on to a new market, it's totally new to you. And it's very hard for a person when you've gone from a role where you, I don't, you know everything, but you know, you've done it for eight, nine years, so nothing can surprise you. And you very confident in your ability to suddenly sitting there thinking, I don't know what that means, I don't know who's. Who's going to call. I don't know what these financial products are. So it was a very interesting time, but it came to at the age of 36. I basically got into personal development and I'll throw it back to you with this, that my partner started saying I should listen to podcasts. And I was, I said it so many times, I was like, I'm too busy. I haven't got time to listen to podcasts. And I listened to one or two, and that's the first time I heard the words Tony Robbins and thought, oh, this sounds interesting. And, and that was the start of my journey onto kind of my own personal development, if that makes sense. So I'll chuck it back to you.

Who switched you on? Out of interest, what kind of podcast did you get into then? Because obviously the, the landscape of podcasts then is very much different from what it is now. Really?

Yeah, it's a, it's a really good question because, you know, now there are. I still think podcasting is a very, very valuable, if done well, a very valuable tool to reach people. And it's evergreen content, if not talking about politics and stuff, which is changing. Yeah, clown. Clowns in government. But I felt that when there was two podcasts I listened to, one is. Was a podcast called Mindset by Design. And funny enough, I don't know if you guys, you know, have sometimes hold people on a bit of a pedestal because they've got a big following or you're just impressed with their content. And it was a guy called Andy Murphy, who's from the uk, he's from Liverpool, but he was living out in the US and, you know, had a real interesting life. And his big message was, you know, design your own life how you want it to be. And, and that's a big, big one for most people because we're not taught that, are we? We're taught, go and get a job. You know, be it, Be a good boy. Turn up, you know, when the bell rings and do what you're told. So that podcast, I used to listen to it every morning on the way to. On the. On this. On the train on the way to London Bridge. And here's what's cool about that. I ended up connecting with him at a Tony Robbins event and then we became friends. And now, like, he, the last London home, had Academy dinner. He'd flown over from the States for something else, but was like, I'm coming to your dinner. And it was great because I used to look at him as up here. And then one day it was like, he's like, I love what you're doing. I'm going to come on your podcast. So I love, I love stuff like that. So that was a. It was a big podcast. There was another one, a guy called James Swanick who still does a lot of stuff against drinking alcohol. That's his kind of angle now. But he talked about going to a personal development event with Tony Robbins where he did the Firewalk and what have you. And that's the first time I heard the Firewalk. And I was like, yeah, I want some of this. So, yeah, that's. That's where it came from.

So you've. Have you done deviating slightly? Have you done the Firewalk?

Yeah, did that at Unleash the Power within at the Excel center in the City in London, as in with Emma, my partner. The mistake we made was buying the cheapest ticket we could. You know, they were. It was still like 700 quid for four days. But, you know, we had, when I say lots of money, you know, we had more, a lot more money that in the bank. But your, your brain says, let's go for the cheapest option.

Yeah.

And then realize you have to queue for hours to get in. So, you know, we always learning about these things. But I did the Firewalk. That was great. A real transformative experience. And I would say for all the people that think about going to events, it's not just about what you learn when you're there, it's about who you meet. Those people might be someone that you can never discuss or decide how that might. Summer opportunity might come around. But at one of those events, it was six, seven years later, I got contacted by someone who had met me that event and said, I've been looking at your stuff. You've transformed yourself. I'd be interested in you coming and speaking at a panel event and stuff like that. So, yeah, if you don't put yourself out there, you know, you're never gonna get opportunities.

So in relation to your mission for the Wellman Academy, how did that formulate off the back of listening to these podcasts? How did you then transition? Because obviously you were new to the podcast, still traveling into town to work, and then you've gone, right, I'm going to make this step, I'm going to make the jump and I'm going to formulate this. So what was that process like? Just for people to get an understanding of what you went through?

Really scary. Really hard. Yeah. Because it's like, I never started the whole man Academy to become a business. You know, I. I started it to get guys together to talk. But, like, all you learn that doing that isn't enough.

Yeah.

So. And this we know, will lead on to where we are today. But, I mean, it was 2018. Think back how far that was pre all the stuff that's happened in the last few years. The first event was 2018. We had 25 guys that came along to it. And I honestly wasn't sure if anybody would turn up because you know what men are like at coming to things. And what you'll know is, of course, I always say, men, of course, are very different to women, but often women, when you knowing women that go to events, they'll often take friends with them, whereas men would often just, I mean, very rarely turn up with their mate. They just turn up on their own. And I know that takes a lot more courage and balls, let's say, to go to something on your own when you've never met anyone, it's not something you've gone to before. Whereas you'd have, you know, the girls events where they were like, oh, I'm taking three of my mates with me. And you're like, all right. So for me, the first event was like, oh, this is what's possible. The feedback was great. And then really 2019, it kicked off with. I'm trying to think how many events. I kind of lost track, but about seven, eight, maybe nine events for men. Some full day events, some just evening events. And for me, the big thing there was, they were all in person. There was no online events at that point. And online has its place because you and, you know, David Simon, you both know you can connect with people across the world, but it's not the same as if we were in a podcast studio or whatever. So a lot of the guys loved just getting together, talking in the break, making new connections, having a laugh, talking about any old nonsense that we might come up with. And you'd have professional speak or say professional speakers. For me I was like, I just want to get guys. It could be like you two to come on with life experience.

Yeah, yeah.

And we had special forces guys, former professional footballers, you know, international speakers. Just a real mix of guys. And, and when it got as a fly in the room, when it got interesting was at Geeves and Hawks. If you do or don't know who gives the Hawks. Is there some rose? I think the oldest maybe men's wear brand in, in the either London or the world or something. And someone contacted me through. I love how these things happen, you know, contacted me through another connection and said we really like your concept of getting men together. We will a sponsor you for a year but also will allow you to use number one Savile Row as a event space for a few events. Which is.

Wow.

Yeah, massive.

It's very nice. Yeah.

That was real. Because I wanted, and I think it's for anybody who ever does any event, no matter what is you want it to be an experience for the people that come along. But I didn't want it to be an event where guys come along to a crappy hotel room thing where, you know, the carpets are swirly and the chairs are all the same. And I wanted to be where it's a bit of a cool experience that you felt comfortable and relaxed and you know, it was an aspirational event. Not like you're going to some help group or something and managed to create it with zero expertise but just using a bit of imagination and stuff. But anyway, 2019 you can sense there was really good momentum. I'd started writing the whole man journal which we're now up to 510 articles I've written for, for that and, and obviously 2020 it went to shit, to use a technical term.

Yeah.

And. And it was really hard financially as well. But also even forgetting the money because money you can, you know, you can find money anywhere but you know, you can't create momentum like that. So I'll pass it back to you. See, see what questions you've got from what I just.

Well, I was going to say as you said, this challenge, if we call it that with COVID I suppose you at that point you'd had such a positive experience of face to face events. So the, the lot like you say, things went to and you know, things got bad. But I was, I remember it's interesting you mentioned Jeeves and Hawks. It didn't get quite as bad as things got for them I suppose like the shirt business literally nosedive and I think they're now owned by M. Ashley, I think actually. But going back to what you were saying, what was your initial kind of thought that first week? I suppose, I suppose from memory, like Covid did kind of creep up a bit, didn't it? It was like, there's definitely something going to happen and there was all the news from Italy and things like that. But that first week when things did shut down completely, I suppose. What, what was your thought at that point?

It's a really good question because I found I was very. Within a few weeks I was quite outspoken about lockdowns because I could see the result of what it was going to do. And yeah, unless you're stupid, you now look and you see the NHS waiting list has exploded. Children, you know, were unfortunately were being taught by people wearing masks. Now whether you agree with mask or not, it's going to have a psychological difference for brain development and talking and etc, you know, you had people in care homes that weren't allowed to see their family and you know, so all of that, plus all the money printing, I mean, I loved it when I spoke to someone a while ago at one of our kind of little village church events and this was six months ago when the pension funds were being bailed out and they were bailed out for, you know, billions or, you know, and they said, all we need to do is just keep printing more money and it will sort it all out. And I said, no, no, no, you, you can't just keep printing money. That's all it's going to do is drive inflation. And you look now at where everything is, plus the interest rates. So all of that, I'm not saying all of it's just been caused by lockdowns, but if you pay millions of people millions or billions of pounds to not work, it's going to have an effect. But rabbit holes of that aside, it was, it was one of those where, yeah, the first few weeks none of us knew what was going on. And then I just realized, like all of us, you can either basically sit in your garage, hold your knees and rock backs and forwards and moan about it, or you can get on with it. So, you know, there's old saying, adapt or die. So I'd always wanted to, I say always, not since I was a kid, but wanted to have my own podcast. And I'd understood the power of it, of also attracting your, let's say a brotherhood or attracting, let's call it customers for argument's sake, because you Know, you can write beautifully crafted things, especially these days with AI, and you can edit and do that. But when you're on a live thing for an hour, you're either you or you're acting, and it's very tiring if you're acting. So I, you know, realized the best thing to do was like, you know what, start putting content out there and you'll. I'm very much about polarization is key. The quicker you can make someone decide if they're looking for transformation, the quicker you can make them decide if they think you're great or you're crap. You're doing them a favor. Because if they think you're great, they'll hopefully listen to your stuff, you know, take action, have some impact in their life and buy your products and be part of your, your kind of movement. If they don't like you, the quicker you can get rid of them and allow them to go and find who resonate, then you've done them a favor. Is a way of looking at not being vanilla with all your content, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's quite a powerful thing because I was just writing down. When you put down 510 articles, that's a lot of content. What inspires your content creation? So how do you formulate that? Because obviously to freshen it up and keep finding things that are going to be engaging. Do you have a process for that or how does that work for you?

It's a good question to start with. No. And the good thing was probably like, I'm guessing you guys might have a few personal development books. So I used to sit with my bookshelf and I, if I lacked, you know, in inspiration, you could just, I could literally close my eyes and just go and pick a book out and you'd be like, right, there's something I would say. I'm. I'd say I'm a researcher of great men as well. So I would not just share my views because I'm not, you know, I would consider myself. I hate the term expert necessarily, but, you know, after five or six years of this, I'm. I'm a lot further ahead than a lot of people. Coach lots of men. I've hosted God knows how many events. I've done 130 podcasts. You know, we have our online quiz, so I get feedback of what's really going on with men. I've created energy protocol course. You know, I've done corporate talks for all these guys. So I've roll that together. I've got a lot of kind of mold expertise, if that makes sense. But I always tried to make it that, you know, you'd be like, right, what are the most common things that men are struggling with that you could help them with? And the more men you spoke to, the more little things you found. A lot of it came back to confidence, financial things, sleep and energy. When you're a dad or you're an entrepreneur, men may be in their 50s who are then looking at their, their careers or their business and thinking, I'm either nowhere near I wanted to be, or I've done so well that no one understands what it's like and I need a new challenge. So back then I didn't have a system. These days I have like a, A digital. Not, not in my notepad, but I have a thing which literally has every idea that I think of just goes on there. And also it's season. Is it because this time of year you might talk about, I mean, to state the obvious, coming up to Christmas, some people have stress of trying to buy Christmas presents. Some people have it where their parents are ill and, or they've died and they're not going to see them at Christmas. There's all these different sile struggles for men. But yeah, I. On average my journals are, let's say, let's say on average, just under a thousand words. So you could say that I'm probably about half a million words I've written on men's health. So I've. I've done my bit.

Yeah.

That's a lot of content. Yeah. Did. I suppose when you first started that at the beginning of. Of COVID did you obviously those first few bits of content you created, did you ever envisage it would get to the scale it has?

What, the COVID stuff or the actual.

Oh, the. Yeah, no, the, the. The number. Like you said, you've created probably over almost half a million words. Like, did you ever think you would have that many articles?

Probably. Probably not. And it's one as I guess it's like anything. Is it. If you, if you think too far ahead, you might overwhelm yourself and do you know what you guys are with podcasts? So I did the. I would suggest for anybody that's listening that thinks, oh, I might want to start a podcast, firstly, do it. Firstly, do it now. Don't say, oh, I'll wait till whenever, because, you know, wait three months, you could have had five episodes and, and you'd have learned so much from what Episode one. What I did was I always go, if you want to learn something, go to people that are doing better than you, if you can afford it. I mean, there's a lot of free content. So I paid two, and don't know, two and a half grand for a podcast course with the guy, Brian Rose, who hosts London Real, if you know what podcast that is.

Yeah, yeah.

He's trod a similar path to me. I mean, prior to me, but he worked on Wall street, worked in. In London, in the city for iCat, which is one of my competitors. So he's a good one to be like. He shows what's possible. But basically I realized I loved his content and the way he did things and he would bring on people that had totally different opinions to others. But I think that's important because sometimes I've learned more from listening to people I disagree with than listening to everybody that just says what I think. So I learned a lot. But what he did, and we'll come on to this as well, the importance for people is gave you clarity, focus and accountability. Because when it's just you, you're like, I'm going to do a podcast. What should I call it? When should I do it? What should I do it on? How long should it be? Do I need a logo? All that stuff. His thing was here's like a 12 or eight week, whatever it is, kind of framework to get you started. And I want a report every week on Zoom of what you have done, what you haven't done. And it forced me. I love that. I think a lot of men like to be, when I say told what to do, just given a framework to.

Work towards deadlines and things like that.

Deadlines, yeah. It gives you something instead of. It's like when you go on holiday, isn't it? You can get a lot done when you know you're going on holiday because you'll stay up late and get it done. So when we launched, his thing was launch now. Everybody will go, oh, no, because I can't. It's not. And he's like, no, that. Listen, we're launching now. And his big thing was people come up to him and say, I've got a podcast. And you go, great, that's fantastic. How many episodes have you done? And they'll go, oh, like three or five episodes. And he's like, you haven't got a podcast. Come back to me. You've got at least 25, 50, 100. And I've said before, I remember when I recorded episode 100, that I was like, like, yeah, that's job done. That's. That's job done. So.

So, yeah, I think that links to what you were saying there, because, you know, obviously me and Dave jumped in it. We started off with an AI podcast, didn't we, Dave? Because we were quite interested in that world. And then we got a bit bored of it. A lot of people spouting bullshit about their AI product and it wasn't really, you know, resonating with us because you thought, it's just people selling and none of the products are that good just yet. But that imposter syndrome bit, where you think we did just say, let's just do it, fuck it, you know, what's the worst that can happen? We'll make mistakes. It's not the end of the world. And, you know, as you go through it, you refine it. So how do you approach imposter syndrome? Because you touched on that earlier, you know, going into that different role within the city. Is that something that you still face? And how do you overcome that type of stuff? Is there strategies that you found useful?

I. I like to keep things simple. Building confidence is doing things you find difficult often, and even if they're little, as often as possible. And the more and more, and even now, let's say with corporate events, and I've spoken at Spotify, Daily Mail, Credit Suisse, Bartley's bank, Lloyds Bank, Daily Mail, domestic in general, you know, all these different companies, but you still sometimes think you have the butterflies in your stomach. But I like to remind myself of, you know, what I've done. Let's just. Let's just pick another, like 50 corporate talks. And I've never had a bad. Never had a bad comment, apart from. Apart from one guy who said I would. It was a. I got a lot. You gotta love. I love feedback and I love it sometimes when it's ridiculous because people are. Sounds harsh, but some people are stupid. And my talk at that point was about morning routine and how important it was. Yeah, like breath, work, movement, drinking something healthy and planning your day. And he said something like, oh, it's. It's useful at best and dangerous at worst because it wasn't scientific. And I was like, yeah, where was that?

Where was that? Who were you speaking to?

I'm trying to think which. Which company it was. I've done so many and some that you kind of forget. But I just remember that being funny because on that same thing, it reminds everybody. I got like three or four messages set up after on LinkedIn from a. From a man Or a woman saying, hey, thanks very much, that little thing. And then is something I even a reminder for me to implement. And then I got the message saying it wasn't, you know, you didn't, you didn't share the science behind it. And I was like, what, getting up early, you know, being healthy, focusing. But you know, you, you can't please all the people all the time.

But it goes back to those number crunches you mentioned in the City, getting turned on by the digits. You know, some people's mindset and the way they see the world, you go, that's so alien towards the way I see the world. Science is good. We know data is good, but also it's dull and it doesn't always stack up. We know that the science can be nonsense. So when people say, well, this paper says that. Yeah, but there's two papers over there that say the bloody opposite. So.

Yeah, and who funds the paper?

Funds the paper. Exactly. What's their narrative? Oh, it just so happens they have a health and well being business.

Company or something like that.

Yes.

And like you say, you're always going to have dissenters and people aren't really going to resonate with you. But do they really count? It's nice to get feedback because it gives you perspective. But ultimately are they going to be someone that wants to be part of what, where you're going and what they're involved in? I doubt it. I doubt it very much. So, yeah, go on back to the.

Thousand true fans concept, if you've heard of that before. Yeah, you know, and that, that for me, I've talked, I found it that helpful and I've talked to some people that are in the, they're trying to build some kind of audience and I say it takes the pressure off you a bit because for me, I'm not interested. I know people with millions of followers and don't get wrong, it's useful, but it can be a real pain in the ass as well. And for the thousand true fans, for me it's like, you know what, let's say today's email I sent out, you know, within half an hour, like 240 men have opened the email now because we've got like a higher open rate of like 53, which I, I never understood, but people like, oh, that's really good. For me, it's like, no, it's not. Why isn't everyone opening my email? Yeah, it's the nature of the beast. But I realized that instead of me trying to have, you know, a hundred thousand People on my email list and a million followers actually I could kind of tell you all the people, especially in our membership, we've got people issue with that. Oh, you must want there people are very much, oh, what's the numbers and how much are you going to make from it? And I was like no, because if you have a shitload of people coming on, you have no idea who these people are. Whereas for us we launched it three or two and a half months ago, it closed midnight last night and we got, including me's 19 men in there. So I know every single one of them. Have they got kids, what their silent struggles are, you know, where they live, probably how much they earn. I know what they need to be working on now and I can continue with all that. Whereas if you had 50 men join, I'm like I, I haven't got the time. You'd have to get more people. So it's not always numbers. I mean to an extent if your mortgage has got to be paid. But sometimes it's like I rather a slow burn and the more what's the personable approach than just let's see as you know, get as many people in as we can.

What do you think will be the. I suppose a workable like maximum of people in the group.

Do you think that's really. I, I got asked this question just this lunchtime because I, I've. I've realized that the more you get around people that are where you want to be or are moving the same direction, the better, you know, and it's not to say you shouldn't speak to old friends and stuff like that. And some and women are quite happy and that's great to do their job, their 9 to 5 job for argument's sake, come home, have dinner, watch the telly, which is all rubbish anyway but you know, look at the news, believe the news is real and that's it and just get to the weekend and I'm like great, we kind of need those people as well to do that stuff. But also for me I'm like, I want to be around men that are driven to succeed and not necessarily monetarily for some it's like they've got quite a lot of money but they want more freedom. Because we've said about the trappings of success. Some people like when I say the trappings of success are those things that trap you in to thinking you're successful. Like the big house, the kids at private school, the expensive car, the watch, all this stuff, all great. But example in the City. I saw men who hated, and I mean hated their job in the end, who slept in separate beds to their wife because they were, you know, disjointed marriage but stay together for the kids. But on the outside you'd say, look, this guy ends, let's just say 100 grand a year. He's got two nice, you know, a BMW and a whatever. He, you know, has got two lovely kids, a big house in a affluent area, life's good. And then you speak to him, he's like, I hate my life. I'm completely lost.

Yeah.

And you go, but you've got loads of money.

Yeah.

You know, it's not, you know, money is very helpful and it's a, it's very useful and it gives you some opportunities if it's used in the right way. But, you know, it's no surprise to say it's not the be all and.

End all because I quite like the Japanese sort of philosophy of ikigai. I haven't gone into any depth in it, but I've always liked the, the summary, which I quote quite a lot is, you know, do something you enjoy that helps others, that earns you money. You know, for me, I always see that as the basis of things because if you've got those three things in your life, then you're going to feel that more success and then how does it then branch out into your wider life to go, right, okay, well, what does this look like for my personal thing? Because it almost links to Stephen R. Covey's sort of, you know, Habits of Highly Effective People, doesn't it? Around, you know, what do effective people do? You know, because you can say you fall into the trap of wealth is the goal. But I'm just reading that book and me and David touched on it by Robert Kiyosaki, around which they're poor, dad, where you go, the middle class are getting squeezed even more and more and more and they're in that rat race.

Way of putting it.

Yeah. And it's pressure. There's a lot of pressure on them because instead of the tax being paid by others because they have greater tax accountants and know how to use the system, people getting taxed at source obviously feel that pressure, you know, and then have to chase additional income to try and maintain that outward, you know, success. And I think that probably ties into some of the things about the Wellman Academy. How do you help those guys who think, I feel squeezed, I feel pressured. This isn't fulfilling for me because I've got, I've written down here about your quiz and how did you formulate that quiz and the questions to then give you the data you're looking for and how do you then use that data to help that person who submitted that form? What's that look like for you?

Yes, it's a great question and it's something I would say I wish I'd have done years ago. It's like all of us, if you'd have, you know, if you had your time again, you'd do certain things differently or that other things you wouldn't do at all. But the one thing I struggled with was like lead generation, like lead capture because just asking for someone to sign up for a journal or a Wholeman Academy E letter. It's the guys that are on it, enjoyed it and you know, get valuable content from it. But for a lot of people, like we all know we're bombarded with requests for our email address and then I don't. Do you know who a guy called Daniel Priestley is?

I've heard of him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So he's the CEO of Dent Global, which takes companies and kind of helps them, you know, magnify their ability, if that makes sense. And he, I had him on the podcast and I was generally nervous that he was the first guy that, when I heard he was accepted, I was like, yes. And I was like, like, yeah. Of myself because I'd always been an employee and when you're going to talk to someone that say. And I called it an entrepreneurial. Entrepreneurial mastermind, you know, the little boy inside's like, please don't say something stupid. Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

So, because I, I respect him and I wanted him to like me and not think I was asking stupid questions. So. But long story short, he is one of the founders of something called Score app and I would suggest you might know, but for anybody in business, it's a very, very good and very cost effective tool. So for me what I realized is we all love how can it analyzing ourself and quizzes and stuff like that. So the big thing was how can we create a quiz that basically breaks down the 10 major sectors of a man's life. So let's just say relationships, finance, health, fitness, you know, your career network, a few different ones. But ultimately you also realize people are time poor so you can't ask them to fill in some 100 question quiz because your completion rate will be shite. So it was, listen, give me one minute, you know. Yeah, it usually on average actually takes people about two minutes. And three seconds. But anyway, give me one minute to answer these multiple choice questions which will basically be, how are you financially? You know, is it, you're comfortably well off, you're loaded, you're completely broke, or you're okay, but could do with more. And those 10 questions, which again, it's like, read it, press, read it, press in one minute. What would it then do? Was organically create three bits of. And this is why it's important. It's not just some generic. You get. Everybody gets the same answers. If Simon, you said, financially I'm great, but physically I'm less than great. And David said, well, actually I'm completely opposite. Depending on how you scored, like low, medium or high, you'll get three bits of info advice completely based around your low, medium, high. So if you're like, you know what, I've got loads of money already, it will say, okay, well here's some high level advice on what else you could do if you're broke. It'll be like, first thing do is work out how much money is coming in and out. So all 10 questions get completely organic individual advice. And to answer your question of how I got the answers, my hundred and now 30 podcasts, I took a lot of the advice that I got from special forces guys, CEOs, crypto experts, all these different, you know, strength conditioning experts, footballers. And some of that I plugged into it. And the other stuff, I researched it myself was like, what's the simple actionable advice to help a man read it and go, that's a, that's a good idea. And what that gives is, you know, in the last three months had like 70 men go through it, which for some people be like, that's not a lot. But if you stood those men together and said, Here's 70 men that have taken the time to answer. And the last question, which doesn't go against the score, but the last question is, what's going on for you right now? And be completely honest because I don't care what you say, like, I want to know. And some of the answers are mind blowing because people will say, men will say, I've never told any or no one else knows this because I don't want to tell my wife that I'm financially in trouble. You know, my family wouldn't want to know. My colleagues will probably be glad I'm doing bad. You know, just all these different things that for a lot of men, that's their silent struggle. Yeah.

And I completed it today, actually. I, I wanted to try it out. Yeah, I wanted to see it and I got my results through and you know, I've then just because I've been working all day, like we probably all have, I've now just got to revisit them and have a look at that because I always find those diagnostic tools quite useful just to see what aligns with what I already knew about myself but what actually could be slightly different or a blind spot for me where I thought, oh yeah, I haven't really considered that before, especially with my health condition. Like I mentioned to you recently, I've had colitis and just how that saps your energy and you have to start thinking of more innovative ways to try and live to earn money because that grind, you couldn't do the grind, you know, when you're unwell. And I think that stimulus for me, that's why I'm seeking out lots of different types of opportunities that you discuss because it just makes sense to go, well, there's other ways to, you know, achieve things and I need to broaden my bandwidth about, well, what does that look like? You know, why am I a bit naive to the world around certain things and how you can generate things? And I think this is, that's another great thing. Yeah.

So my partner, I'm just making sure my out of office is on. My partner Emma is a naturopathic nutritionist so she works through the whole man academy with men, let's say, who've got health issues, weight issues, etc. Etc. And I think one of the big takeaways for me from my learnings, from all the in depth stuff that she's learned is that, you know, there's so many natural remedies for things but of course you can't package them up and charge people lots of money for them. So. Yeah, so, so Big Pharma doesn't like those and they actively ban groups who, I mean I'm not joking when we've seen it where you'd have like Facebook groups of natural health practitioners who would, you know, be showing really good stuff and there might be thousands on there and Facebook deletes the whole group.

Yeah, yeah, massively it's.

And this Simon Anthony, we, we just some, I suppose background information that probably our listeners don't know about and things like that. We, we have had numerous issues with Spotify censoring our content. So we are in the process. Well actually we're going to move everything over to ACAST this weekend and I think this episode, I think we've got no chance in terms of the topics we've talked about.

I'm not moaning. That's a very good topic. So this is very, I think this is really important. I was on an hour and a half webinar last night with, with men. It was all about men's masculine. To be, to be honest, I get bored of talking about what is masculinity because to be honest, I've got more important things to talk about. I'm like, I couldn't give a what you think masculinity is or you don't. I just want to help you move forward in life. Like we can sit there and piss.

I know you're ever going to win that argument.

Yeah, that's it. And you know, everybody's got a different version of what it is. So I'm like great, just shut up and get on with it. Let's move on moving forward. But I'm very interested in what the topics are. So we don't have to necessarily go down the rabbit hole of the topics. But what are the topics that you would say are the most flame grilled ones at the moment?

But it was covered, Dave, wasn't it? We had one with suicide that we didn't give a pre warning that we were talking to someone who was suicidal. And then also what's the one you just mentioned? Big Pharma would probably be the next one.

Imagine that.

You know, they would start to go, well, we can't have people expressing an opinion about that. Even though, you know the medications that I'm on. Yeah, I would love to get away from having to take pharmaceuticals because I just think it's to make me a good pill taker and I don't think it's about making me. Well that, that's my opinion.

You're a customer.

Yeah, that's it. And keep him coming back for more. And I, I don't want that. So yeah, natural remedies. You know, I'm starting to reach out to someone in my local area who might be able to guide me with lifestyle and diet as well. And that's the route I am going down. Because you think, well actually you look at the value that they could offer your life. Yes, it's probably pricey but as you said, do you want the cheap seats where you've got a queue for ages or do you want your health to be fast tracked to a good place and sometimes investing in that. And I think people. I remember speaking to a life coach once, he said, look, would you buy yourself a brand new car for ten grand? And the guy he was talking to said. Yeah. And he said, well, why wouldn't you invest that time in your. Yourself? Why wouldn't you spend that money on you? You know? And I think that's vital. Sorry, Dave. To cut across you there. So what, were you gonna chip in?

No, I was just saying it's. I think the other part. And just take it another notch up in terms of conspiracy stuff.

Keep going, Dave.

The big. The big element that kind of. That was killing us was they obviously use, like, some sort of AI or automated, like, pattern stuff. So when we first kind of got, I suppose, not suspended, but just kind of in a holding pattern, if we call it that was around Covid and actually the con. The. The episodes that kind of were flagged. We actually. I think it was literally the word Kovid was mentioned. There was no, like, kind of anything. Yeah. There was literally nothing. And then that was. It was just kind of like, well, what have we said? And then it was weird.

I think it's really important to tourist because a lot of people don't realize how much stuff has been and still is, but has been censored. And. And I've said before, and I was on a podcast a few weeks ago where at the end, the chap said to me, it's really refreshing to have someone that will come and talk openly and honestly.

Yeah.

Because a lot of people will be like, oh, I just don't want to talk about it. And I'm like, no, no, no. The. The stuff you don't want to talk about is the stuff people want to. Need to. Need to hear and want to hear. Yeah. So, yeah, I saw it the same. You know, I had friends and you know that if you just had an alternative view, which now has been shown to be completely correct, if that makes sense. But you got censored, shadow band deleted, deplatformed PayPal, took away your. You know, PayPal deleted people's accounts, all of that. That happened. So. And some people, if they didn't understand, would be like, what, What. What? I didn't know. And you'd be like, we'll just be clear that I'm an adult. Last time I checked, I. I don't always act like one, but. So for me, I want you to show me, no matter what topic we're talking about, show me everything, and I'll make up my own mind about what I wear, what I listen to, what things you might allow in or near your body.

Yeah, yeah.

And then I'll make my decision. Don't say we're gonna keep you safe. We'll. We'll delete anybody that says something anti. You know, what the. The narrative is. So it's a. It's a most divisive topic. And the other big one is, you know, if you talk about transgender issues, that. That gets flagged up. Yeah. I could go down all these rabbits. And also for. For schooling as well. The. The shit that kids are being taught at school is. And I'll say this is a technical term, it's fucking outrageous what they are being taught at school, especially sex education, like disgusting. What they're trying to force onto teenagers. And I know. I know this firsthand, and it's shocking. And when you go down the rabbit hole of where that. Let's call it the content, the syllabus comes from, it's not a nice place to go.

Yeah. You know, and there's a lot of this happening in America, isn't there, around transgenderism, pushing this agenda. The content in schools, like you say, about how they could even perform fellatio on someone at a young age and how it's almost encouraged and then be the blockers, the puberty blockers. And, you know, I've heard horrible things about Canada where actually they would say the children should make their own choice. And they could be 10, 11, 12. And you think, well, how have they even formulated that sort of concept? We wouldn't let them vote, but would let them make a decision on that. And sometimes these people who are starting to consider transgender, they may have additional things going on with them as well, where they. They need guidance and support even more than someone else. And like you say, you go down that. That rabbit hole, and that's where the conspiracy theorist stuff and people start to throw it at you, but you think, there's got to be no smoke without fire. You know, there is things there. You know, so.

For the, you know, kids actively being co. I think for most people, when you talk to them and, you know, I speak to a lot of men, most of us, let's just say men couldn't give a. What someone wants to.

Yeah.

Be known as. Right. Yeah, it's. It's. But don't try and push it on other people. And my thing is, it's. You can't normalize it. It isn't normal. It's a very, very, very small minority. So, again, you. Do you. But when you realize that it is being filtered through to children and you saw all the issues with, you know, drag shows and parents, mental parents taking their children to drag shows, and thinking it was. I don't even know where to start calling energy. These people, like, need help, to be honest. And if they don't need help, they need their hard drive checking.

Yeah.

So it's a very, very interesting time. And I, again, I have. I literally was talking about this morning with some schools, which I know that are putting just horrendous content on the kids. And a lot of parents, the problem is they won't. They either don't realize they're being taught it, or they can't be asked to go in and say, what the fuck are you teaching my kids? So it's a. It's a very interesting time to be alive.

Yeah. Because, you know, I picked up on earlier that you said that you're homeschooling your children. And is that part of the rationale behind why you do that? You're going, I want to be the one who oversees what my child is exposed to. And, you know, I'm looking at this and going, well, actually, if you've spoken to all these really great people around the world, actually, the learnings from them and what children would benefit from would probably be far greater, you know, than what they're getting taught in school. You know, going back to Robert Kiyosaki, he goes, look, school's great. It gives you stuff, but does it prepare you for the world? And I think, you know, I wrote down here, you know, what do children need? How does the whole man concept maybe fulfill some of that about. Well, our children probably need an exposure to alternatives to help that critical thinking to go. Let me just not digest what I'm being told. Let me analyze that. And what are the skills I need? How do I become financially savvy? That's going to help me for the world. And, you know, what does that look like? So have you give that much thought? Because I thought that was quite interesting when you mentioned that.

Yeah. I mean, do you know what? And just to go back to your point, which is a really good one, what do children need? Well, firstly, a strong father and mother. And kids, I would say, look up to Mummy first, because Mummy in theory, you know, they come out of her and the first thing they need is, is Mummy's skin touch and her kisses and her milk and her love and everything else. But next up is, is dad. And if they've got a pathetic father or no father at all. I interviewed a. I always get his title wrong. It might be a psychotherapist called James Hawes who talks about the wound of the father and he said something like 90, 95 of all the men that he works with, nearly 99 of those, it's, it goes back to some issue with either the dad was there but was useless or he wasn't there and they had a complete void. And you know, male and female energy, mums could do their best and do incredible work but mommy can't have the male energy. It's just impossible. And we can be as calm and whatever, but we haven't got the nurturing energy maybe that the feminine side has. And most kids need a bit of both. And if you grew up without a dad, I've said all of, if not nearly all of my mates that grew up with I, I would say anger issues. The ones that were always fighting, you know, always if you said, can you guess who ended up fighting in Maidstone Town center tonight or whatever, you'd go, this person. This person, this person. Yeah. And it wasn't a one off. And you notice all of them either had a dad who wasn't around or a dad who was, was crap basically. So you said, what do kids need? Firstly, awake parents who understand how the world works, how big pharma works, how the food works, how, how, you know, people make a lot of money out of war and that's, that's, you know, the, that industrial complex is a big money making mincemeat machine. So the other issue with kids is it's allowing them to grow and not fit into a box of. Right, today you're going to learn one hour of this, one hour of this, one of this and then the bell rings and you go for our kids and the masses of home educated kids, we know sometimes they'll be completely lost in something for ages and to say halfway through, right, stop, let's go. And they'll be like, no, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm creating something. The other thing is commonly you can tell I could talk a lot about the, this stuff as well, but for the homemade stuff, a common one for a lot of people will be firstly, well, how will they socialize? Learn to socialize and you say.

I was going to say, that was a question that was coming in my head.

Let's say a six year old child and he goes to school, who did you spend all day with?

1 or 2 mates that he likes the most.

I imagine they're all what, six years old?

Yeah, yeah.

And are they learning from each other? Not really because they weren't the same, if that makes sense. Whereas when they're homeschool you'll have like our little newborn baby. The older kids are learning to nurture the baby and our four year old, they're learning how four year olds work. The four year olds are learning how 12 year olds work and they all end up inter combining and learning from each other. If that makes sense. Yes. You're not constrained by today. We drove 45 minutes to go to something with all these kids from all different areas. Whereas generally kids are in school just doing the same thing. And let's be honest, kids at school was created to create worker bees. No. Going back to the war, you know, the Ministry of Education, it was not there to create enlightened individuals. It was to create worker bees who can either work with their hands or work with their brain behind a computer. And you go to school to learn to get there. At 9 o' clock when the bell rings, you sit down, shut up, you do what you're told and you all wear the same thing. So you're all in uniform. Yeah. And you can, when you go home, you can go home and do a bit more homework, which is just ridiculous as well. So the big thing for me is I appreciate it's really hard, it's really rolling. It's very hard in homeschooling depending on your situation. But I see I would do anything to make sure that we homeschool our kids. So none of that decision started with the. That goes on with what they've been taught at the moment. But that is like a nail in the coffin for what, what is going on. And a lot of parents and I know them, like we say, listen, I wouldn't know where to start with homeschooling because I don't know how it works. And it was the same for us, but once you understand it's really, really important. And there's several of the most switched on people having to be men that I know in the world. They're one of their messages, if you can, don't send your kids to school.

Yeah, I suppose one question I have around it is, and I have a friend that she has homeschooled her kids, but it got to a stage where she actually put her kids into school. And that stage was kind of as you get towards like your GCSE type things where you have to. I suppose where she hit limits was there's the amount of hoops she had to jump through. It just became unmanageable because, you know, like having to deal with like exams and the exam boards and stuff. Is there a point, I suppose where would you put your children into school at any point or do you think.

Never if I could help it. But you know what, it's a, it's a really good point that. Because what are exams? Are they.

For me, I find, are.

They a true test of someone's ability? Are they who can memorize as much stuff as possible and then. And then regurgitate it on a bit of paper?

Yeah.

So.

Yeah.

And don't be wrong. You know, I went through the whole school system and I. Most people I know did, but I didn't know then what I know now. So it's, it's not to say for us that we wouldn't ever put our kids in, but for us it's about. Imagine every day saying to child, what do you want to learn? What are you interested in today?

Yeah.

One of them is totally interested in one thing. One of them will spend hours on like woodwork and that's how he'll learn his numbers. Not by sitting from a chalkboard but being like, right, where's my ruler? I'm counting, I'm working on stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

One thing I will say just the same as Covid the trans something it triggers some people, I have to be careful because don't. It is hard. And for some parents, they couldn't homeschool because you've got to go and earn money.

Yeah.

And you could almost say that the economy has been deliberately destroyed, you know, from a child could look at what's the way the economy is now, the way it's been created and run and be like, well, I thought the experts were supposed to be in control. You could say there's multiple things. One is, you know, small business owners and middle class people are being completely screwed. And what does that create? Dependency on the government. Which is why Universal Basic Income was piloted as a scheme in Wales. Because you say, look, don't work anymore. We'll just pay you. We'll just pay you a small amount of money. But of course you've got to do whatever we say.

Yeah, yeah. And if they bring in the central digitized banking, crypto stuff, you know, there's lots of theories around that and how they can turn it off and on if that does go down the route. And it's starting to look like those things are slipping into place through the vanguards, the Blockrocks and these other big organizations. And I think going back to education, you know, my background is a football coach, educator. I used to work for the fa. You know, it's one of the things that I'M really interested in. I, I always found that there is an innate element in people, an intrinsic motivation for things that they're interested in. You learn what you're interested in and you get good at what you're interested in. It's not, I've got this plethora of stuff, you know, Hastings 1066, blah, blah, blah, blah, nonsense that you don't really need. It is more a case of, isn't it? When I work in this role, I get good at it because I'm doing every day. I learned how to refine it, shape it and move forward. And I, I think that's the big thing I'm trying to do with my own child, my son, is to say, well, look, this is why we started the podcast, the AI one. Wasn't it around. We want to learn a little bit about this because that's the future. That's, that's not going to go away. But they ain't going to get taught that in school. So how do we become a bit savvy to try and have conversations with our children in and around it and then learning more about.

Well, we.

You need to learn how to earn money, mate. If you don't have to earn money, then you've got security. You'll be confident about how to do that. Which gives you that freedom that you've touched on earlier about. Well, actually, when I've got freedom, I can dictate what my life looks like and how I go forward with that. So, yeah, it's hugely important. And I suppose, I know at the moment you focus more on the, the men element. Would you ever dip down to support children or parents with things, or does that already happen as part of the Wellman Academy with the conversations that you have?

It's a good question, because what. The way I see it, if I can, I mean, not all the men that I deal with are dads, but, you know, a fair percentage of them. But then again, a lot of those men, even if they're not dads, they might have nephews, nieces, etc. Etc. But for me it's like, and, and you were talking about it there for a lot of the guys that are in the whole man academy, they want to earn more money because they can also see that with AI, jobs will be taken. You know, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to look now and be like, there's certain jobs that either won't necessarily disappear, but will certainly, you know, less need. For example, copywriters. I know someone who worked for a company where they had, let's say five copywriters, now they just have one because that person can use AI and do the work of five people. So for me it's about helping a man find the drive which not is always, isn't always easy to do. The drive to go and work on whatever he wants, whether it be a health issue or a financial issue or his relationship, but the financial one comes up a lot because who doesn't want more money? And you've seen in the last three years, you know, we had friends who worked for companies. I'd have been a disaster if I'd have worked for a company because with what happened in the three years, you know, being told what you should or shouldn't do would be an interesting conversation. But what they found was you might be happy in your job, but when all the issues started happening about whether you wear masks and all that stuff, and they were like, well, I'm not. And the company didn't try and squeeze you and make it hard for you. Think, hold on a minute, I need this job. So I'm going to have to do what I'm told. And that might be easy as a child, but as a 30, 40 or 50 year old man who's, you know, got any level of pride being told what to do and what to wear or you can't do this and that isn't, isn't something that most of us want to be part of. So for me, with a lot of the men, interestingly, some kind of side hustle, let's, let's use that. And if you don't mind, I'll give you a great example of with the network which we launched, one of the guys, I'm big on starting simple but starting with something and taking some steps. And he jumped on the, we have like twice monthly zoom calls, like mastermind calls and accountability tools and stuff. And he said, I've been thinking about in short writing an ebook which he could then produce on sale, make some money from it. And basically, long story short, he hadn't. But for me, I was like, right, one night a week, let's give me one night a week where you say to the wife, listen, after the kids gone to bed or whatever, I'm in the spare room, office, I'm working on it. Please don't, don't ask me to help you, don't, whatever, I'm doing this for you and the family and me. So within three weeks, he's now written the, written the book that he's taken him a Long time to sent me through. And the point is, it's not about the ebook. It's about the accomplishment of realizing what's possible. Now we can use AI to. I literally have the tool to just put that, drop that ebook in and it will create it in an instant. And if he wants to, he could then sell it for a no sale, no fee on Gum Road or somewhere.

Yeah.

And start making money if it's any good. Or he could use it to become a key person of influence in his sector. We all know if you say here's Jeff and he a lawyer on his. Brian, his twin brother. But he produces a monthly newsletter and has written two books like it or not. People like, oh this guy must be better. He can probably charge more because he's published content. So for me it's about. He's an example of that guy that could, it's not rocket science, but he could have done those things for, for years, but he hasn't. But now he's got the accountability, the clarity, the focus and the kick up the ass. He's now produced something that he can now kind of generate something else from.

I think, would you say a lot of the men, and on that kind of theme, a lot of the men that are interested in what you're offering, are they looking to, I suppose, jack in the nine to five grind and they're looking for that freedom, I suppose, or you know, they're looking for something that's a bit more fulfilling. Is that, is that the majority of the men that you're, you're meeting or is there other motivators?

I suppose it's a good question. There's, there's a mix. You've got some guys that have got a business and are financially comfortable that are basically saying, I'm just bored.

Yeah.

So money's not an issue. You know, money's not the burning issue, as it were. But they all wouldn't mind more money. Especially now we said with interest rates. You know, I, I know people now that had a big house and a medium sized mortgage and maybe a grand and a half left over each month, which is always nice. And now that's gone because the mortgages, they just remortgaged at 6% instead of what they did at whatever it was.

Yeah.

Suddenly you're like, oh, like I was comfortable. And now you start thinking, do I downgrade my car? So a lot of the men, not necessarily want to leave their job, but would like some kind of side hustle slash side income. And also I think it's important. It has to be digital really.

Yeah.

Because you can't scale the rest of it because it takes you. You can't get a part time job because you know, yes, if you're desperate for money that's going to be helpful but you're going to get the amount of money you're going to get is by the amount of hours. But trading time for money is something that a lot of men and I did it for years, so don't get me wrong. And I work very long hours now but I love what I do, if that makes sense. But it's. I don't think there's ever been a more important time to be financially independent and also an easier time in the fact that you can use AI for so much stuff now.

And I think linked to that redundancy. You touched on it. AI could replace jobs and I know you wanted to circle back to redundancy. I was made redundant from the FA in 2020 during COVID Massively destroyed a career that I'd worked for and I was really passionate about and wanted to make a difference. Couldn't get back in because it was quite a niche role that you can't find out elsewhere. So what sort of stories do you hear around redundancy and you know, the impact of that? Because I honestly believed that whole time was the contributing factor to my health condition starting and I don't know if that's something you've heard as well or, you know, redundancy. What was the thing that you wanted to circle back on that.

Yeah, it's a, it's a huge topic because if you've never faced redundancy, I think the older you get, the harder it is because, you know, like it or not, men that are, let's say in their late 40s, 50s, unless you've got a big fat pot of money in the bank account to suddenly go to another job that pays you what you know, what you're earning, if you're earning good money to maintain the lifestyle of what the. Like it is, you know, the wife, the house, the car, the watch, the holidays, all that kind of stuff. And I, I kind of segment it, but I know. So I've been made redundant twice. I was very lucky first time, I kid you not. I got, I got made redundant. The whole, the entire trading desk did. So I worked for abb. We were making good money as a trading desk. There was maybe 16 traders but basically the, let's call it the parent company in short, bought another company, a small company but also took on all their liability for a asbestos claim. And yes, the asbestos claim, I think they thought, I know, I don't know much about it because I was young in the country, but I think they thought it was going to be like millions and it went like a billion, you know, just something colossal. And they just said, which wasn't very clever, but we're going to cut all risk trading. So we're going to cut anything that's risky because if you, you know, if you can make money on that, you could lose money. And great example, our colleagues that were thinking Zurich, can't remember wherever, but I think there was four traders there and made like 20 million that year already between them. They were the first ones to get cut. So they made the entire desk, everything got made redundant. And I was in trouble then because I hadn't been in that role to build up a connections and a network to, to go and look for another job. And it was the day people love this. The day that I bought, literally exchanged contracts on my first flat with my then girlfriend was the day we got called in and they played a video from like whatever the guy was out in Zurich or something saying, you know, oh, really? You know, he's probably a multi, you know, a multi, multi, multi millionaire. We're really sorry, but basically you're all out of a job.

Yeah.

And I phoned her and I literally remember being like, hey. She's like, why you phoned me like 11 in the morning? I was like, yeah, been made redundant. And she's like, what the are we gonna do now? And I was like, I have no idea. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, I was very lucky. We all got a really good payoff, so. And they found me. A few of us went to another job. So. But honestly, if I hadn't have had that, I don't know, I had nothing else. Now fast forward to when I got made redundant. The, the second time I wanted to be made redundant. The company were brilliant. They'd found me other roles, but we were just like, you know what? This is the right time. I got offered one or two roles, but I knew I didn't want to go. So that for me was like, I celebrated going, but I know guys that have been made redundant. It's a complete shock. They can't get another job doing what they're doing. Or if they, they can, they've got to wait six months or, you know. Because you have gardening leave.

Yeah.

And it can be really hard because suddenly you've got no purpose. And I've said before, when I write about redundancy on LinkedIn, I don't want sob stories, redundancy, I want actionable things of how people navigated it. But it gets a lot of reaction and interaction because I remember I would, the second time I got made redone, I'd walk Emma to the station because she was still working at the same company. She'd get a six o' clock train in the morning. So I'd walk her to the station and I'd probably have my tracksuit on and I'd walk back past all the men and, you know, a few women, but mostly men coming this way here, always suited to booty. Like, I was really weird because I was like, when I walked in the door, I'd shut the door and it's 10 past 6 and it's pitch black and I. What do I do now? Because I had no, nothing to do, no structure money in the bank. And it was like I'd never experienced that in 20 years. So redundancy, I think is. The sooner you can know that you're being random, the better because you need to be prepared for it, basically.

Do you think. I suppose in that vein, do you think you've always. And I don't know, I. This is probably me speaking my view rather than asking the question, do you always have to have a sense of paranoia? I don't mean extreme paranoid, obviously we, we've talked about some other things where there's. Yeah, but do you mean, you know, and you've always got to kind of work on that basis And I suppose I've seen this probably in the last year or so with my wife, not so much with my wife, but with other new mums that she met through like baby groups and stuff like that. It's not a case of them being made redundant, but what they find is when they go through the process of going on maternity leave and stuff like that, the penny drops that those companies they work for don't give a about them because literally it, they literally will. The goalpost, goal posts move, everything under the sun changes. And I know from speaking to people before and kind of when they're during maternity, the whole view of, of their, you know, I suppose their employer or their whole working environment they have before, before just changes dramatically. And, and I suppose the, the blanket cover for that is all things change when you have a child, but it's not the child, it's the company you. Then the penny drops, they don't really care. Like that's the Thing. And that goes back to the redundancy thing. It's all interlinked, isn't it? They couldn't give us.

I've heard men say, I. I never thought they'd get rid of me and. And I'll short it, you know, I. I thought I was too valuable for them to get rid of.

Yeah.

And then they find they were, like, the first one to go because actually they were on the biggest salary. And, yeah, I know it comes down to performance, but sometimes it's like, you know what, let's trim the top few and try and build it up. But I have a saying, which is, there's no friends at work, only colleagues.

Yeah.

And even my partner, Emma, I know she made the mistake when she left the city and there's one or two people, she'd be like, oh, you know, we're such great friends and we'll stay in touch. And I was like, you'll never hear from them again. Or you might once or twice, but then that will be it. And I get it. It's like when you leave, you're completely out of that. You know, you're out of the game, basically. And that's why when people get made redundant, if you've got something to go to, you can be relaxed. And I spoke to someone recently who a man who got made redundant quite a few months ago. And the mistake you can make is, oh, I've got ages to look for another job because you got a payoff. So the first two months you can be like, I just chill, do some painting at home, you know, just that, maybe go on holiday, whatever. But then you come back and try and get in the game and realize that people forget about you. Not always, but, you know, well, they filled the positions and then suddenly three months in your wife's like, when, what. What's going on? And you're like, haven't got any interviews. The. The egg timer of money is. Yeah, the sand's dripping away. And the more that goes away, unless you've got a load of cash in the bank. And even then you're like, I've got a lot going out and not much coming in. And then you become desperate and then you're not in a position of strength to turn down that job you don't want. You end up taking something you need and you're back in the same position that you were to start with.

Yeah, yeah, huge. I mean, because I actually sold my house, we moved to Spain, we bought a place out there, and then our little lad didn't you know, settle. So we come back and then the, the world back here has changed so much, you know, and the prices of everything went through the roof and you think, oh right, we got to start from scratch again. We've got to look at different things. But then the positives can start to come out of it. Like you say, you start to shift your mindset and you go, I've got to find solutions around this because I'm not going to find the job. Especially in the world where I was in football. It's changed very much to certain demographics being prioritized over the roles that they want to offer people. And if you are a white middle aged man, unfortunately you won't fill that brief. And I think, you know, it comes back to, that's the reality of the world in a lot of places. And it's trying to go, well, okay, they're this, the chips that have been stacked against me. How do I find a solution? Is that another common thing that you're hearing of that people are facing this demographic sort of issue that is now feeling like, well, why are we being persecuted at the moment? Doesn't make sense.

Yeah. And it's funny because the people that have pushed those rules are white men fun enough who are, you know, at the very top, let's call it, you know, the, the globalists as it were. But all it also does is it creates division. And what I would say is people like, people like themselves. We gravitate towards people that are like us. And if you then great example, you know, we're in a little sleepy Cotswolds village. But if you create and people, there's a big push for diversity and let's be inclusive and diverse and bring as many people in as different as possible. But you look even at schools, you'll often have the, the different groups of ethnicities that all stick together and you probably find that their families all stick together as well because people like people like themselves. Why is it that Birmingham, you know, when you go to Birmingham, you feel completely outsider if you're white, Nothing wrong with that. But you realize because people gravitate towards their own customs and values and you know, family kind of, you know, family values as much as everything else. So it's funny I look at with the whole man academy, when I talk privately to a lot of men, they say exactly the kind of stuff you say. But the sad thing they say, I can't voice those opinions on the outside world because there's always someone waiting around the corner to be offended.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think with offense, it is that person's problem. And it takes confidence, doesn't it, to say, but that's a you problem, that's not a me problem.

Yeah.

I'm not deliberately going out to offend you by living the way that I live. But I think this whole offense agenda and how people feel entitled to be able to say, well, because I'm offended, it means I'm more important. You know, just a daft one on this that you might find interesting. My son's doing home economics the other day, making a pizza. He wanted to put cheese and ham on it. We gave him some to take into school. The teacher said, you can't use that because it's not vegan ham. And it's like, but why does the vegan in the class, if there is even one, get the dictator, dictatorial approach to go, because I'm vegan. You and what is it? Cross contamination? You know, what the hell? But you think, where does that come from? Where does that nonsense come from? Where someone said, it's more important that we have that vegan ham. We're like, have you had vegan cheese on a pizza? It's bloody disgusting. You don't want to eat it. Yeah, so why would I want to eat vegan ham? He's bringing something home that was supposed to be going, well done, that tastes lovely, bud, good job. And instead he's told that he can't there and it needs to be state stain his bag. So the, the dog was pleased, you know, I mean, it got to have a bit of ham. But all that nonsense where you just go, really. And I don't know how it seeps in. Where did, where did it start to seep in? Where do these people start to get their, their sort of claws into it? Because you think, do they go to training cinemas or something? Where they got to go, actually, look.

At, Let me use a great example. I mean, there's, there's good rabbit holes. You can. I mean, I just dropped this one in that we know again, I have nephews at, at, you know, one of the top boys school. So I'm privy to exactly what's going on all the time. I mean, they had a campaign saying banter is bullying, right?

Yeah.

Now, you guys know, for. In football, in finance and whatever, that banter is a important part of the male, the male world. And you or I, you know, if we could take the piss out of each other. I love you guys and I'm just saying it because it's funny. But I feel like he said I've got a big nose or I don't like my pink shirt or look at his silly beard or something like that. You're like this. If you think that you're going to go out in the world and not have anything said to you that you find offended by you're or you will end up, you will be a total pathetic snowflake that people won't want to hang around with. Some people will and they'll be sad as well. So this, the school system, like you said, he's on many levels. But when you realize, I mean, the boys had things where they were told, you know, there's too much masculinity in the room or so too much testosterone in the room and you say, hold a minute, if girls were doing girl things, would you go in and say there's too much femininity in the room. Exactly. How would that work? They've had talks on white privilege, they've had to listen to that stuff. It's and it like you say, where does it come from? That's a, another hour long podcast. But back to men. And I think men find that as well. A lot of them tiptoe around on like LinkedIn and I get it because they're like, I think all this or this or this is bollocks. But I can't say it because I have bills to pay. And you're like, it's scary, isn't it really?

Do you think though? I suppose. And it goes back to what we were saying originally, where you were saying about schools being, you know, the production line of, of worker bees and stuff like that if we were to kind of change the mentality and, and I suppose you also said as well, you know, you do need people that are going to do the 9 to 5 and things get done. I suppose. But do you think, I don't know, like, do we reimagine what the development of a young person becomes so that, you know, I don't know, we churn out not just the work of bees, we churn out people that their natural gravity, they're not being grabbed, they're not being pulled towards, you know, the sensible good job type approach. They're actually going out there and doing something like a risk taker or, you know, setting something up, things like that. Like, I, I don't know, do you think we can actually reverse that or change that? Because I don't think we can in this.

I, I, I'd like to say yes, I think the school system is completely and utterly entrenched in a certain ideology. What at the moment, if that makes sense. And so I look at it that can I affect that? No. Are my kids at school? No. Therefore is my time better spent helping the, let's call it the middle aged men, if that makes sense. You know, that's where when I say my expertise, that's, that's my thin slice of expertise. But it still doesn't mean that it's good for us to talk about it because sometimes you'll get messages from people saying, I'm really glad you said this about this because I've been feeling like that, but I just haven't, you know, I haven't heard anybody else. I thought it was just me, if that makes sense.

But do you think as well like this is an issue I've seen time and time again in this country and now I'm not saying it's just unique to this country, but especially where so say like some of the men you're working with, you encouraging them to kind of I suppose take responsibility in some ways for their life.

Yeah.

One of those ways is obviously setting up their own business, stuff like that. But I've done numerous businesses and things like in this country. Yeah, it's hard. But the other bit as well is I suppose that comes with a hard, with it people take great joy in firstly telling you how hard it is, but then they also tell you like how bad the idea is. They literally tell you why you shouldn't be doing this. You know, they build so many hurdles.

Yeah.

Or, or just things. But then I've spent time in like the US and other places and the mentality is like the polar opposite where if you said oh yeah, I just started my business, everybody's like, great, that sounds excellent. Like what is it? And it's like no one says, oh, that's a pile of. This is kind of like what we.

Have in this country.

I don't know how you get rid of that mentality.

You're right. I think it's a, as an age old thing and maybe when I was younger I might have been the same. I mean I, you know, I'm very different man to what I was. You know, I'm 45 now, so let's say 35. Around that time I think I woke up to, you know, a different, I was a different man around that time. But you're right, I found that where although I didn't start off as a business, I've spoke to a lot of people that have who said in this country. It just felt. It's like personal development over here. It's very guarded and, and it's very. There's not much of it about, which is why I saw it as I know there's a desire for it. I want to create what I wanted as a 35, 6 year old man that I would have spent good money on and everybody else, like, I want to bring in the men that I. That was like I was. But yeah, you go to the States and hence why postal development is massive over there because they have a more for one of a better a can do attitude.

Yeah.

It's not. What are you doing that for? It's like, great, tell me about it. And I'm trying to think who it was I heard who said who'd lived in the States and over here. And long story short, like in the States if he drove around in like his Ferrari, people would come up, be like, wow, what do you do to earn this over here? It'd be like, wanker.

Yeah, there we go.

Sorry. What?

So, yeah, and I think on that as well, I see it from a selfish perspective where I look at my son and go, well, look, if a lot of the other children are lemons, because that's the way they're being developed, you've got a great advantage. So, you know, and also you're not competing with the kids in your local area. If you want to be successful. There's other kids whose other parents are pushing the agenda to help them become the best that they can be. So focus on that. Don't worry about the lemons too much because unfortunately, they're almost like the lemmings, you know that. Yeah, they're already in that mindset. So especially post Covid, I found a lot of children have become more, you know, smaller in their character, their personality in certain places because they haven't coped with that, that whole narrative quite well. And I think actually they do feel a little bit like the behind the curve because they didn't have someone, like you said, who was a parent who was trying to just get them to go, don't worry about that. Work forward, try to do other things because that's a part of what your life could be. But there's other elements where you can design what that looks like. And trying to have that with the, with your own child is, is fascinating.

You, you think. And I think it's a really important point. Go going back to what. It's so funny how some people think like, oh, we should just forgive and Forget what, what happened in the last three years. And you go, no, no, think about the youngsters. You know, we're all older now. And he said, older, but let's be kind to say, yeah, who missed out on, if you're at university, you know, getting pissed, shagging people, having parties, learning, doing all nighters, doing all this stuff and meeting new people who were working or studying from home. Then you look at these school children who no matter who they were, they were, should be out in the playground, having fun around, running around and learning from each other and doing all this great stuff, sitting, looking at a laptop with no friends around them. And then you take it younger to the babies. Our middle child didn't get to go to all the little classes where all the babies, you know, dribbled on each other and poked each other in the eye and rolled around on the floor. He didn't. Everything was shut. So where. And whilst they did that, they were taken out to supermarkets where people were all like this. And it's. What a dystopian nightmare. So the, the long reaching issues that I think that probably maybe never will be fully understood from, all of that cannot be underestimated. But if you want to flip it then to the men. A lot of the men that I spoke to said working from home was good for a little while and then they realized they suddenly became lonely. Not everybody, don't get me wrong, but often it was either the men that were on their own that suddenly became lowly and depressed because you were just, you know, isolation is the biggest foot punishment in prison. So we all like a little bit of time on our own. But yours no, you know, continuous for most people. Does you in. Because what some men said was even if they used to work from home, they'd go out to the pub that night or a nightclub or a restaurant or on dates or what have you. So you had that double whammy. Then you had the dads who had kids like I did, who suddenly they've got a high pressure job, you know, they're working long hours and they've got the kids, rightly so, screaming the background because kids shouldn't be quiet.

Yeah.

You wouldn't take a child into your office and when they were noisy, be like, shut up. Because you're like, don't bring them in the office. You're with you.

Yeah.

So, you know, I spoke to and it was really hard sometimes to hear from men who've had a lot of pride and a lot a high power job and blah, blah, blah. They Were like, I'm finding it's really hard because I'm getting, I'm snapping at the kids saying like, I'm trying to work, I want a swimming call. And the kids are like, I'm at home, what do you want me to do? And then the wife starts arguing and saying, don't have a kids. Great example. A guy who I did a little bit of coaching with, let's say, and he said, I've never felt depressed before, but, you know, within a few months of working from home, I suddenly just felt like I didn't want to get out of bed and had all these different feelings. When things started back up, the company said, hey, you can come back to work, we're opening the office up. But some people were, didn't want to go back to the office. Up to them, fair enough, for various reasons. And then he found that it was only going in one day a week. So he said, the problem is I was going in, there's no one in the office, so I might as well just stayed at home. And then in the end the company said, hey, there's no one in the office. Let's just shut the office and we'll all work permanently from home.

Yeah.

And he's had to leave because I can't, I can't do it. And you know, that for me had never come up before for most people, but for men especially, it was very hard to separate the blurred lines of being dad at home and dad in the office who's got, you know, he's got deadlines. Yeah.

Because I, I think there is almost a narrative pushing people towards this. Be isolated, be at home. You know, like I said, I deliver mental health and well being training and you know, I think they want people to be unwell again. And that is the cynical side of me. Where I'm going, it is big pharma. The more people that are unwell and depressed and on antidepressants, more customers, there's more customers. And you know, that's why it's great for me that you're pushing the methodology of look, how well are you looking after yourself? What's your routines? Are you hydrating, eating, sleeping, exercising, being social? You know, what does that look like for you? Are you setting yourself a realistic objectives and goals to try and achieve? Do you have purpose? Because if you don't have any of that, then, you know, it's very easy to slip into. I feel awful, you know, because you've lost your, your direction and goals. And with that in mind, then you Know the Wellman Academy, Not Wellman, Wholeman Academy. Where are you going with that? You know, so I could, I saw bits on there where you, you're really trying to help people and I know that's not the only thing you're doing. But you know, from that perspective, is that something that a lot of guys are reaching out for? Is it part of what you just give them as part of the whole package?

Yeah, it's a good question. And it's evolved because I say, I like all of us, you, you sometimes never know the path ahead and who you meet and where it takes you. What I realized was being around more men who are, especially in the States, who have got massive memberships. Firstly, let's, let's be honest. The most important thing for me is me making money because I've got. But what I mean is if you can do good with that money and put more events on and create better content and etc. Etc. That's, that's where you can amplify it. And yeah, that was my mistake before. I should have started a membership a couple of years ago because what guys said was, listen, I've listened to a podcast, I've read your journal, I've worked through your online course, but on a Monday morning, it's still just me. Yeah, and we heard that from guys. Even at personal development events I went to, they'd say, listen, the problem is you get all excited at the weekend and you go home and you know, emotionally vomit all over your wife how great you're going to do all these things. And by Wednesday you're like, what the was I doing? So for me, trying to add in the regular accountability and focus and clarity of a unit was, was important. So I would say my main goal is to grow the network. And I know, I don't know what the tipping point is, but at some point I would need some, a, another person, another man to help me. And I have two people in mind once it becomes financially viable. But I try and look at it as a two pronged or three or four prompt approach, as a funnel. Let's say I know that everybody's either got their own budget or their willingness to spend what they have got. So I say, look, you start with free content, you can read the journal and that's free. You know, Mondays and Fridays. And the odd bonus one, you can listen to 130 hours of podcasts for free. You take the quiz for free. That would already help you. But then if you want to go a step further, the next One is something like our energy, what was called our energy protocols. We, we're refreshing it for next year. But we had over 100 men bought the course, which again, for some people might not sound a lot, but I was like, put 100 men together and realize they're all working through your six part course on nutrition, mindset, resilience, morning routine, fitness. So they could then buy that for, let's say, you know, less than $97 or something like that. Or they could now join the network for. Well, the price had just gone up, but for like it will be 67, which let's say faces about 50 quid a week. Sorry, 50 quid a month. Which, yeah, you know, is, for want of a better word, is probably the price of one coffee a day. And what that would afford you is being in a network of men who are driven to succeed. They're all normal guys, but you then get the accountability in the goal setting and the events and stuff like that and the regular calls that just help you check in and, and drive you forward. But the other thing for me is again the event. So in November I hosted three events. One in Winchester, one in London, one in the Cotswolds. I mean the Cotswolds one. We had 14 men come to it. I, I actually got, which is random for men, but I got like thank you cards sent through the door, which I've never had before. I've had bottles of drinks sent to me. But there was a big appetite for men to want to. Who all want to do well and be a good dad and be a good business partner and provide and what have you, but who want sporadic events where you can get around other men who can have proper conversations and aren't gonna be offended if you said something you don't like. And more importantly, maybe get out in nature, get around a fire, cook steaks, you know, have a couple of talks, leave, leave your phones alone. And I asked all of the guys there and they're 14 around that table, or 13 and me, who would be interested in that next year. And every single. It was like a Mexican wave. Everybody said yes because I think a lot of men want to get away from tech. It's very useful. But yeah, you know, get back to something of nature, even if it's for a weekend or something like that.

Yeah, I think I, obviously I'm a hypocrite in some respects in that technology is a big part of my daily life, I suppose. But you're right, it's so difficult now to escape. I Suppose the only situation I can think where I've, in the last few years, where I've escaped technology is actually if you ever have to get on a long haul flight, even that's evaporant. If you fly British Airways, their WI fi is terrible. But if you go like other airlines, you'll get WI fi, but like fly ba, you know, the chance of getting good wifi on that is really hard. So I, I flew to like the States last year and it was pleasant because you just. I could sit there, read a book, catch up on podcasts, obviously off my phone. That was on there thinking about it. But just do, do what you want. You're not being dictated by the phone or, or emails or anything, isn't it? It's just so rare in this, in this world now.

That thing is, you become so dependent on it. I mean, I've got, you know, Instagram, I hate Twitter. So I, I check in and again, you know, Instagram and LinkedIn I'm on all the time and I've got three different email addresses and you know, I use Telegram, WhatsApp, normal text messages. You know, people message me on Instagram as well and of course on LinkedIn. So I've got like, in the morning you could so like check like five or six things and messages before you even start.

Yeah.

Sometimes it drives you mad because you're, you start again because you'll be like, oh, I've looked at this. And then you go back to LinkedIn and then Instagram and then Facebook. I forgot that one. Because we have people messages on there and before you know it, you're like, what, what was I doing? Why was I, why did I pick up the phone? So again, that's a big one. So many guys on podcasts are like you. It kind of is an energy vampire. And time, you know, it sucks your time when you realize you're scrolling and you're like, oh, there's a cat dress as Hitler. Why am I, what am I doing about, you know, why am I looking at this now? Yeah, it's a big one for a lot of men. And, you know, we all know it's designed to be as addictive as possible.

Yeah.

I mean, the thing listening to you this evening, Anthony, and just that last bit, the thing that jumps straight to me and I don't know if it's something you've considered is the, the franchise approach. You could almost see the whole man academy being rolled out. So you've almost got these, these secular clubs which feed into the larger club yeah, but you think, well, actually, if you did find these guys with a similar mindset around, we want to create these more local hubs, you know, Is that something you've considered? You know, because it does sound like, yeah, there's lots of men, like, I. I think, who would be keen to attend these events, get to know each other, build their networks and connections, and have that focus. Focus. Is that. Is that something for the future?

It's. And what I like there, Simon, is it's a, like a big thinking approach, isn't it? I always call, like, the whole man academy, like, a little big idea. Like, there's a little idea I had that has grown to. I'll tell you what's cool. Same with podcasts. I had a guy contact me a few years ago, and the great thing about podcasts or content online is, of course, it could be found at any point. So they could be, you know, listen to it a year later, two years later. But one guy was like a police officer from Toronto, and I was like, hey, great. That. He's like, you know, the guys in whatever listen to your podcast and read your journal. Like, you know, the police officers there. And for him, he was like, there's nothing. There's nothing like this in Canada. And, you know, I had. I was an event a long time ago where I got talked to someone who come over and said, oh, my husband, this is cool. My husband runs always part of one of the American football teams, and he'd be really. He's into this stuff, would be really interested in you maybe coming out there and doing some kind of something. Now, nothing came of it because, to be honest, I think we're about to have our second baby. So I've, you know, had priorities, but it's certainly something that, for me, the big thing is about how can you have more impact? So you start with what you can, and then you build out from there. But you said the key thing is finding men who are a weight to how the world works. Because I find it very hard to be around people that don't, because then I can't have someone, you know, with my. Let's say with my rubber stamp of approval who, like, watches the news and thinks it's real, like, watches the BBC and everything that comes on, they're like, oh, yeah, this is how. I can't have that. Because in the end, you just go like that. So he's. I've connected with so many more men who I say have got a brain. And what I realized was the cleverest People I knew in the last few years are now, I realized were the most brainwashed.

Right? Yeah, yep. So they followed that narrative of this is what educated the people look like, sound like. And it's that charade that, that sort of presentation of self. You know, a lot of work by Goffman around how do we present to the world, world what we want people to see. And you know, the fear of. Actually I don't want to be under educated because then I'll get persecuted. But like you say, well, actually none of us stop evolving, developing, growing. So we're always just adding extra elements to ourselves. Like you said, 35 year old you to 45 you is a different person. And I think we've probably all been through that. And having children shapes you and changes you and how life gives you a kick in along the way and how you bounce back for that I think will all. Yeah. Contribute to that. So. No, that's interesting because. Yeah, that franchise approach, me and a friend were just talking about it the other day, you know, because I've got a friend who runs these after school clubs, football clubs, and he's, he's got a franchise in that. And you think, well, actually that type of approach for this sounds like there could be something there. And I just wanted to ask you if it's something you considered and. Yeah, because I think, yeah, I, I'd be interested in the future because I think it feeds into that, that sort of. You want these conversations, you want people in power and supporting each other and you know, where it grows and develops from. You don't know but you know, it could be an interesting element to how you go in the future.

So I think football is a good example of, you know, men want to belong to something, go to something and you know, also be entertained sometimes and you know, when you look around the country, the thousands and thousands of hundreds of thousands of men that go to football and rugby, let's just pick those. Yeah, that when, you know, they're the kind of men I'm trying to reach because I'm a normal guy with, you know, with normal dreams and desires and goals and kids and, you know, late nights and I've things up in the past and I've done stupid and I'm not perfect, so I want to get around those guys. I always say it's an attitude and intentions. I don't care what you've got, what you drive, what your job is, what your salaries, what your house looks like. Have you got a good attitude and have you got intentions to do some, you know, some good stuff in the world for you first and your family and then your wider community. But I'd love to talk about football if you have time for a minute because. Yeah, yeah, I love a great example of again going back to the Kovid stuff. But the psychological, the psychology of what happened there can be studied for many, many years to come. And this is where it's interesting because if you remember a lot of people did whatever they were told. Okay, for, for argument's sake and we know that was a fear based tool that was used. But what was really interesting was that I feel they gave football back because at some point there'll be some unrest and it's the bread and circus of, okay, look, give them their football, right. Don't let them go to stadiums. But now suddenly on a Saturday and a Sunday or whatever, a lot of, you know, fighting age men, if you want to put. I will happily sit.

Yeah.

And get excited about men they've never met who are, who are fitter than them and richer than them and probably have more sex than them.

Yeah.

But what happened was when they, those men were never going to go out and protest against having their freedom taken away because they've now got what they, they needed to be fed, if that makes sense. But when they then announced that the Europeans, I think the Super League was going to start when it was going to be Liverpool, Chelsea, man city, what have you, you saw thousands of men take to the streets and be at their clubs saying, no, no, no, you haven't gone to. And I'm a football lover so I'm, I'm not beating on football fans here. I'm a bit of fan since I was tiny. Yeah. They've been had in the fact that football is more important to them than their freedom because they would take their masks off and go and chant with their mates and go, yeah and take their shirts off. But back on a Monday morning they were back on the tube with a mask on, doing what they're told and only seeing their nan, you know, through a care home window. So it's a very interesting one to look at. If you give. A lot of men who haven't got. Men need excitement in their life and thrill and if you give it to them via the medium of entertainment on TV, they, on a Monday morning they're just, they're happy to go into work because they're like, I had my hit of dopamine at the weekend and if it's not, it's not their dopamine. If that makes sense. It's been generated by other men. So it's a really interesting one. Yeah.

Because I grew up with loads of lads. I'm from Portsmouth originally, and all my mates, brothers, were football hooligans, you know, and that's how they found their release. They had the mundaneity of their role, their job, and the excitement was. That's how they presented that to the world at that time. Because that was the sort of era, you know, mid-70s to mid-80s, before the rave scene come in and everyone started getting loaded up and hugging each other. But that was part of how you displayed, you know, your desire or frustrations, you know, And I think that's where that is a release for men is that sporting outlet. Yeah. And men. You know, I do assessments for professional football scholars in clubs still, as part of one of my roles, and those young people don't have much of an opportunity to think, you know, so they're indoctrinated in a lot of way and, you know, controlled. And if we look at the statistics, less than 1% make it to the elite end of the game. But one other part on this is, look at us 3. We don't live in the area that we grew up.

Yeah.

So I found where I live now. I moved out here as part of. We wanted to live by the coast, but when I lost my job, it changed. All of a sudden, I'm like, oh, I live out here, but there's no football where I am. It's a desolate wasteland. You know, Gillingham's not much of a team, to be fair. So there's lots of men who've been displaced and moved to areas where their. Their childhood friends are not there anymore.

Yeah.

So these type of clubs, I don't know if I call it a club or a network, you know, where you can go. Actually, I want to go and have a chat with guys because my. My back and my fallback was always play sport. You know, go and play football, pick up squash, do that. But now, because I become unwell and got less energy, I can't do that. And you lose that. And you think, well, actually, if there was something where I could go and connect with these guys who are in it for the same reason, you know, they just want to socialize with some men, chill out. Almost like a gentleman's club in a way. But it is that sort of approach, I think. Yeah. It's something that men are definitely calling out for. I. I would. I would say. And it links to these, you know, well, Being things that are popping up where, you know, I know a local charity called Head in the Game, where men go down, play five aside, talk about well being and stuff, have a kick about, then go home. You just think that there's all these different tiers, but to bring that together would be really, really powerful. I think so.

And that's. It's really important. You said this, this is one of these points about, let's talk mental health. My issue is that mental. Mental health is part of what makes up a man. As we know. And I've said on podcast, you know, you can have someone that's like, mentally, I'm fine, but I'm broke. Like, I don't need mental health support, I need strategies to help my business, I need marketing or my mental health is fine, but I'm fat and out shape and I need someone to help me with that. So when I first started, people ran, wrongly assumed that it was all about mental health. And we know it has its place. And for me, my example was, let's say, with the whole man academy. Mine is about aspirational events and personal development, looking to the future, like looking at where you are now into the future, not necessarily to the past, because if you go over the past, you're just picking a scab that's never going to heal, you know, not to say there's no value in looking at what's happened before, but some people revel in, let's just talk about what happened before. But I would say, let's say on the broking floor, when I was there and there was, let's just say, number 300 men, if I'd have gone like, hey, guys, who wants to come to a mental health event for men this week? Yeah, a shoe or a Daily Mail.

Yeah, yeah.

If you just said, hey, guys, there's a. There's a mental strength and resilience event this weekend. We've got special forces guys, ex footballers, CEOs and Maori warriors from New Zealand coming in online, who wants, who's interested suddenly. Yeah, just roughly the same thing, but packaged in a different way.

Yeah.

And that's, you know, a mistake maybe I made, as I always knew. I didn't want it to be just mental health. Because the problem is I'm not trying to attract. I'm trying to attract men in the gap. And the gap is, yeah, you've got depressed and suicidal, you've got the gap of like, is this it? I want to be better or things are going well, I can do more. And then, yeah, the People at the top who are like, I don't need any help at all, but you don't want to. A charity is the right place for suicidal. Like.

Yeah.

And harsh as is. Do you want your entire customer base to be built around that? I'll give you a clue.

Yeah.

So, for me, I would try to be very clear about. I'm taking the man. I was. I wasn't. I didn't have mental health issues. I was bored of my job. I had money in the bank. I was very fit and healthy. I just represented the country in the World championships in America for obstacle course racing. I, you know, had a loving family, so I had all those boxes ticked. I was very strong mentally, but I was like, I just. I need something else in life. So it's. It's an important one to say there's a time and a place for the mental health stuff. But, yeah, be careful that talking about mental health puts some men off from being like, I. I don't want to go to that.

Yeah, yeah.

Because then people say it's a safe space. Now, no man has ever said, unless it's joking. Yeah, I'm looking for some kind of safe space to have a chat.

Yeah, yeah.

It doesn't work, like. But people think it does because it's like a buzzword. So people. And I don't beat on people for that because I'm like, listen, I. It explains what things are. But I try and talk the language of. For other men. They're not looking for a safe space. That sounds like the rest of the world is dangerous and they need a padded cell. For me, it's like, you need to sit down with someone in the corner of a nice hotel or on Zoom or whatever and get out. What the fuck's going on? What's your silent struggle and what can we do about it?

Yeah, it's that mental fitness. It's that mental fitness element of, you know, this is how I cope with the world. And it's different for different things. Like, you say, it's not, I'm unwell. It is. I just. I'm not challenged or I need something else. Yeah. I think terminology is quite powerful because when I deliver courses, I say it's much easier to talk about stress than it is mental illness and mental health. Because, like, exactly like you said, people get turned off by going, oh, I don't want to be labeled as that. And it's like, right, okay, there's no problem. But stress, such an easier conversation to have with people who are not managing it. Effectively so. No, that's a great point. Thanks. Anthony.

I think one thing that's worth asking at this point, you mentioned obviously about your program closed last night.

They.

I guarantee there'll be people listening to this, that what you've said has resonated with them. And I suppose that first step is always that hard, the hardest step. What are you going to be opening up again for more people or like, so what, what can that next step be? I suppose for, for listeners that say that what you've talked about has resonated and they want to take that next step, I suppose, yeah. You know, they've seen your content but they actually want to, you know, be part of something.

Yeah, I always think it's about. And I never like the term following or followers, but for me I'm the same. I have guys, I'd say I'm a follower because I like, I like what they, I like their attitude, if that makes sense. And we know that other people won't like my attitude and your attitude and your attitude at all. But like, great, you go and do you. The other guys come and get around me and all the other men around. So the reason I closed it was I wanted firstly the men who'd been thinking about it to have a push to either, like you said, David, a deadline of not like, oh, I joined when I feel like it's like, do you want to be in or not? Yeah, yeah, you know, stick your in the custard. It's not expensive, everybody in there can afford it, you know, either or get off the pot as it were. And you had some guys say, do you know what I needed? I needed the kick up the ass to get involved. So it, it closed last night at midnight. So we had two more men that, you know, joined, although one of them, to be fair, messaged me. He's been a long time supporter of the whole man academy and I'll link it to football in a minute. But he messed me, he's like, I've got so much stuff going on. Please can you just. I'm gonna join but can you just let me come back on Friday? And we all know what that's like when you've got deadlines, kids and everything. So we will reopen it in early 2024. But if people want to, the first thing to do is basically to either go to our website and just take the quiz because everybody that's on our whole Man Journal email list and it's good quality content, there's no rubbish on there means that you'll firstly hear about it. But I'll tell you a cool story about the guy that joined yesterday. He came to one of our. He's been to Winchester dinners and several London dinners and he used to be a ball boy at Reading Football Club when a professional footballer called Nikki Forster, who you might know, you might not.

Yeah, yeah.

Really nice guy. You know, he's been to whole man Academy dinners, reads our journal. He's been to. I've had him on the podcast and here's what's cool. Nikki came to one of our London events for, for, for dinner and Ash was sitting next to him. And I didn't realize that Ash used to be the ball boy at Reading when Nikki was the set was the, you know, the, the striker who was the forward and used to like, when I say worship him, you know, I mean, it really looked him like a hero.

Yeah.

And for me, I was like, Nick is. He's my mate. That's all I see him as. Because I, you know, that's the way I am. But for him, it was like I'd never thought that I'd be sitting having a beer and a burger and just a good chat with who I, you know, deemed as my hero all those years ago. And I was like, that's forgetting everything else. Isn't that cool? I love, I love that stuff. Yeah. So that was a long way of answering a question that it will reopen another flight in 2024, like early in 2024. And, you know, I want it to be with no nonsense men who don't mind a little bit of real talk.

Yeah. And I think there's plenty out there that will reach out to that. Like I say, I mean, we're still trying to grow our listener base, but there will be people that have listened in and again, you know, from our network, we'll go, you know, that resonates and it's something that I'm most definitely interested in. So the, the other element of this, you've. You've put some great little sayings in throughout. We always say to people, is there one defining saying that you have that sort of drives where you've come from, that you live by a statement or anything like that, or do you just go, actually, they're okay. They're not things that I really buy into. I use them every now and then. So we always ask someone if they have got a quote they live by. But some say yes, some say no. But we always like to just gather one if they have got. Got one.

I definitely one of my biggest bits, after doing 130 podcasts, you can imagine, even if I had one thing from each guy, you know, you. Yeah, you've forgotten 100 of them. You've still got 30 odd.

Yeah.

Before I give you the. My saying, which just reminds me where I'm going with it, one of the best bits of advice I got for now. This doesn't have your male or female. You've got a partner or you've got a workforce, what have you. I interviewed a former Californian police detective who went on to become a men's coach. And he said to me, one thing to especially relationships, but go to your partner, your husband, whoever it is, and say. And blow their mind by saying, how can I make your day a 10? And his point was what? You might think that they're going to ask and demand all these things often. Sometimes that it would be the simplest thing, that they're just like, I just wish you'd empty the dishwasher. It sounds silly, but, you know, and just do this or just something that, that for them is really important. That for you, you're. You're quite kind of lax about it. And I know when I got off the call and went into my, you know, partner, Emma, I was like, how can I make your day a 10? I think she thought I'd been possessed by someone. Where's Anthony? What have you done with him? Yeah, be applied. I've done that in. Talk to her. I said, that can be applied to your. Your workforce. Imagine saying to your team or your desk or something, guys, just a question, like, how could I make your. Your day a 10? Or your, you know, your experience of working. How could I make it a 10? And some people might be like, I just, I just wish I could leave early on a Friday, an hour or two early.

Yeah.

So it's. It's one of those things that you can apply to a lot of your life. But my final one is, I know it's my ending calling card, which is the world needs strong men. And that kind of surrounds everything I try and do because I'm trying to connect with. With more strong men. I'm trying to create more strong men. I'm trying to be stronger myself so I can bring up mentally and physically strong boys. As we've got three boys. And generally you look around and the show that we're in at the moment with the clowns and the puppets and the cretins in government all around the world, especially the five eye countries, but all around the world, that no time like it. I think that we need strong men and, you know, I don't know where we go from here, but the more men like us that we can connect with that at some point you might need. Could be very, very valuable.

Yeah, excellent. So two great ones there, Dave. They're going on the T shirts, mate.

Yeah.

So, Anthony, it's been amazing. Two hours is gone and fly like that.

Yeah, yeah.

And covered a variety of topics and. And when we get guests like yourself on, actually, we think we've still only scratched the surface.

Yeah.

You know, we really haven't really got depth to what we're doing because it's hard to in these. These sort of conversations. So it would be great to check back in with you in the future. You'd be up for that, you know, and, you know, I. I'm definitely interested in learning more about the network when it reopens and, you know, getting involved and I'll be in touch around that and seeing what it looks like. So thank you for coming on and sharing, you know, what you're trying to achieve. And, you know, the group should kind of formulate because I think there is that. That desire from men, like you said, to just communicate, collaborate, get together and just be men. Just be seen in a place where it's encouraged and it's really an opportunity to thrive. So, yeah, thank you for giving up your time and coming on. It's been really great two hours to have a chat with you.

It's been a pleasure. You're more than welcome to come and join the brotherhood brothers.

Yeah, I'll be having. I tell you one thing that I can say safely from this conversation is it's. It's so good to get someone speaking positively. Do you know what I mean? In that you just, as you said, like you pick up a newspaper, the news, there's so much negativity out there. I know we've talked about some. I don't really call it negativity, but we've talked about things that happen. But you come across so well in terms of the positivity. And you're not looking to say, oh, well, this is what's happened. You're looking for actually how to move things forward. So, as I said, I think this will resonate with a lot of our listeners and I'll be joining them, having a look at when things do reopen in the new year. So, yeah, thanks again for coming on and. And as Simon says, it'd be good to catch up, hopefully in the new year and find out how things are going.

Yeah. I'll happily. I'm pleased to say that I get. I often get asked back, only because I will give a unfiltered view of things and maybe it's rare. So I. You know, I would say even these. This time has gone so quickly, and I think that's a very good indication. If you're having a good conversation with people, you really resonate.

Exactly. Yeah.

Instead of sitting there being like, hell, this is only 20 minutes in.

That's normally what it's like, if I'm honest.

Come back on. I will happily go for it. Yeah.

Excellent. Well, thank you, Anthony, and all the best. Enjoy your Christmas.

Cheers, guys. And you.

Cheers.