WMA x Truu man podcast

Hello and welcome to episode 21 of the True man podcast. The podcast designed to create a generation of self defined men. Today I'm joined by Anthony Asprey. Anthony, thank you so much for joining me today.

Pleasure, mate. It's good to be sitting down and talking to you. I know we tried this before and it all went wrong with the joys of tech. So we're, we're grimling free today.

We. Well, proverbial words, but we shall, we shall see where we get to. But yes, thank you so much for coming. I appreciate your time. First and foremost, why don't you answer the toughest question of them all that I love to ask, which is in your own words, Anthony, what makes you a man?

Yeah, good question. And it's funny where I've kind of been on so many podcasts, I realized that a lot of people don't really care what makes you a man or what masculinity is. They just want to know how to help them move forward, if that makes sense. But, but I always kind of think you could kind of break it down into three things. Like for a man, it's attributes that he's got and that could be physical strength as well as mental strength. I think both of those are equally important and probably will begin to be seen in the next few years when, you know, when times are tough. Physical strength doesn't have to mean that you're able to lift heavy weights, but physically strong, I mean, healthy as well. Because we both know, you know, you could be flying in life and suddenly if your health goes for whatever reason, it could be that you had an accident and, or you got ill for some reason, suddenly everything kind of goes to shit, basically. So attributes being one of those things. The other one is behaviors, because I think, you know, we could talk about multiple things, but the behaviors of a man when you're single compared to the behaviors of a man when you're suddenly become a dad, you know, things that you did when you were single, you can get away with the things when you're a dad and you've got more responsibility for little, little babies and, you know, maybe a wife or girlfriend are different. And also it's just your roles, which I think have changed with the, I mean, we're on, I was going to say zoom, but we're on a, you know, a digital platform now. And that has changed the roles of a lot of men because it meant that they can either work from anywhere or work from home a bit more. So there's, you know, if you Break the things down. Attributes, behavior and roles. To be honest, the three things I think that kind of make up a man, then it's up to the person to decide what, what that is. For me, it's like you should be, you know, some kind of a provider. I think most people want to provide and be useful. You know, I wouldn't have a problem if my partner earned more money than me. But I'm 45 now. Maybe when I was in my 20s, my pride would have said I, you know, I must earn more. And I've had very recent talks with guys who are interested in coaching, who are struggling with. They're trying to branch out to do something that's, that they feel is worthwhile. But of course they have to take a pay cut or a complete pay cancellation for a while. And of course their partner's then the sole breadwinner, as it were. And then suddenly it feels weird when you're going to your partner be like, can I have some, can I have some pocket money? So yeah, it's an interesting time to be a man. And that's why I think these conversations are important because everybody's got different views on it and the more kind of people you speak to, the more interesting it gets.

Yeah, definitely. I love just hearing people's answers because like you say, it's a conversation that starting to be had, it's changing, it's different and how people interpret it is changing. But, but there are common themes and I think you touched on those quite nicely that are sort of coming across in what anyone says, which I think is good to hear. I think it makes me a little bit proud again to be a man. I guess from the people that are answering these questions that the themes seem to be the same. I guess you're on your best behavior when you're answering that question, but I think the themes are still there. So Anthony, why don't you tell us a little bit about what you do now and what it is that you sort of offer to men and what, what sort of got you there.

Sure. And I'll try and put it in a, in a nutshell. I was on an hour long radio interview yesterday and you know, they didn't define how long they wanted your intro to be, so I gave them like the real NutShell, bullet point one. But you know, we're not constrained by, you know, digital airwaves here, so we can expand a bit. But in short, I was a, you know, I grew up down in Kent and I lived with, you know, my mum and dad had a happy family life and we lived on a non working farm. And I always think it's important to look at, I mean fatherhood for a lot of us, not just being a dad, but what your influence of your dad was, if he was around is a very important thing for a lot of men and women. But you know, I primarily work just with men because I know how men work. Well I'm never going to work out how women think. That's just, it's like nailing jelly to the wall. And what I saw with my dad was he had a corporate role, he worked for Barclays bank which everybody will know until, let's just say until his 40s and then realized that he was getting home very late, working long hours, not seeing myself and my sister who's two years older than me and one day said I don't want to do this anymore. And I think that was very brave back then because now you and I will know more. People look and say I'll evaluate my work. Life should be life, work, balance but evaluate it and don't just go for money all the time. So he was a very strong, still is thankfully but a very strong kind of person in my life or a guiding light because I realized he took those risks years ago and we moved from Kent down to deepest darkest Kent and bought a non working farm. So it was a complete change. You're a banker let's say one day up in Regent street and then you know, on the Monday suddenly you've put your bowler hat and your pinstripe suit down and you are in hunter wellies barber coat and dealing with sheep and stuff like that. And I knew that I needed, I felt like I needed to escape Maidstone which is where I was living at the time and I started working in London for a couple of big finance companies and I ended up working as a junior trader. Didn't really enjoy that, didn't fully understand it because I was never actually interested in the number which is why for all of us, you know, we could talk about childhood as well. But you know, I think with a school system it's important a child will pay attention, it's something they're interested in whereas when they're not you'll just mess around. And that's, that's what I found when I was younger And I, after 20 years of working as a broker and a trader I became disillusioned with 200 hours a month at my desk. The 5:30am Wake up call. Yes, bonuses were good and stuff but still, you'd spend the same 200 hours a month at your desk doing something you weren't massively fulfilled by. So that was. That was. I swallowed the hair. That's always helpful. That was around the time I learned about personal development. I started listening to podcasts through the suggestion of my partner Emma, who said, you know, you're kind of moaning all the time you're looking for something. And I think a lot of men, we've talked about silent struggle, but my silent struggle was I was earning good money. I had a fairly cushy job, and I could have carried on doing that, but I didn't want to do it. But then you've got the external. The people who want to keep you safe say, just stay with the job. It's good money.

Yeah.

And you're like, yeah, but it doesn't light me up. So, long story short, I. I left the city, must be what, seven years ago now, and started the whole Man Academy. And what I want you to do, and I think it's important for people listening, is combine. If you can combine something you're interested in, something you love, that you want to talk about all the time, and you can get paid for it, whether it's really well paid or at least paid, and combine those two, then that's kind of the golden egg that a lot of people looking for because you never feel like it's work. So the Whole Man Academy started in 2018 with one event in London at Soho house. We had nine or 10 events in 2019. It was growing, and of course, 2020, the lockdowns happened and technical term, but it fucked it completely for me because you're trying to do events where guys like us all get together, have really good speakers and decent conversation, and that's not the same on Zoom, but, you know, adapt or die, as the saying goes. So in 2020, I started my own podcast, which we're now up to 130. I've lost count. 136 episodes. And we launched a membership for men in September of last year. And that was, for me, the big thing I realized I should have done a long time ago. Because men want community. Men want to get around other men that want to win and have honest conversations about when things are going well and things. When things have gone completely shit, when you fuck something up or you've lost money on something or you've. Your marriage has broken down, that's often time. When things go wrong, you need a brotherhood more than when things are going well. So that's my nutshell of kind of where I am at the moment. And I'll hand it back to you.

Awesome. It's. Yes, it's really interesting that you almost emulated perfectly your, your dad's life. Yeah, he. You got bored of the farm, went to the city, got bored of the city and went back. I've not heard that that side of your story before, so that's interesting. What do you think that that sort of made you want to leave and wanted you to go and explore, let's say, the big city?

It's funny, I look now at the brainwashing of TV and media and magazines. I mean I have a big problem with a lot of these companies and these organizations for various reasons. But one is of course they're there to manipulate you. And you look back and you're like, I wonder how much of what I thought was important. I mean, even as a man you think certain things are important. Why? Is it because I used to read the magazines that they'd have the expensive watch adverts and you know, just all of the toys and those kind of things. So it's funny, you look back and you're like, was that my thoughts or was that, was it suggestions that were put in? And we know there's a lot of psychology, marketing, to state the obvious, you know the best marketing know how to tap into your desires and you know, they sell you the life and the result you want as opposed to where you are. But I think for me, I like Maidstone is the county town of Kent stuff. But I tasted London, if that makes sense. My sister was a model for like Models One storm for, I don't know, quite a few years. And that meant as a 16 year old boy, I'd go to London with my sister and stay at her apartment, which is right overlooking Stamford Bridge, the Chelsea football stadium. And of course I then get to go to nightclubs with lots of beautiful women, which was really tough for a 16 year old, you know, really struggle. But you got to see London and you got to see a door was opened of like when not just win money, but when you've got more money, you have more opportunity. And that's what got me interested. And to be honest, like a lot of people, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. It's really hard, isn't it? As an 18 year old, what do you want to do? You're like, well, dunno. So I mean, this is one thing I talk about with guys, let's say because how old are you, Lewis, 32?

Just 32.

So, so I'm, you know, let's say 12, 13 years older than you. But a lot of guys I think go in like, let's call it decades of, let's say 18 to 28 to 38 to 48, for, for want of a better kind of segment. When you start to think, is this what I want in life? You know, I enjoy doing X for X amount of time. And yeah, for me the door was open to like, what else is possible? And working for, you know, one of the biggest commodity trading companies in the world, you suddenly started being around people that were earning millions and you got to go to amazing events and that, you know, there's nothing wrong with staying in your hometown. And I think it's very important if you can stay around your family. But sometimes it's good to go off and experience things first before you kind of come back and make a nest, basically.

Yeah, that's. That was one of the things I sort of picked from that was that you, I think you mentioned it in your intro as well, that you, your, your, your thoughts and your things change. And I think that's something that I'm trying to encourage as well, is that discussion. Because a lot of people, I think there's the crazy saying, it's like you, you die when you're 25 and live the same life for 50 years or whatever it may be. I think it was really important to challenge that norm and just sort of say, well, hang on, I'm here. What am I doing next? What's the next thing? But I think you're right. As a youth, you're more susceptible to influence, let's say. And I think you sort of have that chip on your shoulder is like, I'm going to prove something, I'm going to do something. And I think a lot of men have that. I think competitiveness is something that's just natural. Part of being a man is like it's, it's, it's centuries. Yeah. It's inbuilt. So I, Yeah, again, similar, similar to yourself. I, I think from the age of 14 to 18, I was going to be a lawyer, an architect, work in an investment bank and probably that I'd be a professional footballer at the same time. Yeah, the, the trip, the, the quad, quad, quad effect. And then eventually I just, unlike I, I stuck with maths because that was the conversation I had. I was, I was going to be an architect, but I couldn't draw. So I went and did numbers, went and Worked in finance, went and traveled, was really fortunate to go and work overseas with that job and then, and then came back to the UK and had that conversation with myself is like, what's happening? What's next? And I think it, yeah, it is really important to have those conversations at different points in your life. And I think, I think I said to you when we tried to film this the first time that it's only now that I feel like a man. And yeah, I'm 32. And that's like, crazy because the, the, the norm is you're 18, you're a man, make your decisions and go and live your life. And yeah, I, I'm doing this now because I want people to question regularly. I think it's really important to question. You might do what you're doing for another five years and then go, actually, what is this? How does it, how does it change and how does it benefit? That's the future.

That's why it's important. Because we're not taught this stuff at school. And, you know, male or female, the point is often you kind of feel like you're, you might get pushed into things because your parents think you should go, especially if it's a. I mean, let's use the example of, you know, had friends that were pushed into being a lawyer or a doctor, especially Asian friends whose parents, that's the path they took. And it was like, well, that's a respectable, well paid, secure, safe. And they'd be like, I don't want to do that, but, but they must be right. And suddenly you find yourself studying for however many years, getting in the job because you feel bad about, you know, backing away from it because people have spent money and time and resources on you. And then getting there and thinking like, this isn't, you know, I've climbed up the wrong ladder of success, basically. Then there comes the big issue. That's the silent struggle a lot of men have is, well, I'm kind of here now, probably got a mortgage, some car payments, maybe kids come along. And now I've got the trappings of success that have trapped me that I can't take the risk of, like, losing it all. And also because your partner might say, I'm not saying they all do, but be like, if, you know, I saw men in the city whose wives had become accustomed to maybe dropping the kids at school in their Mercedes or their Range Rover and then going and doing some yoga and doing whatever. Not a lot of them worked part time. I'll give you a clue. Because the husband earned decent, you know, six figure plus salary to then say to your wife, listen, I don't like what I'm doing, so I'm going to take a job that only pays half as much. But if you could go and work three days a week in a cafe, you know, I'm not saying all, but some will be like that. Like what? Why would you want to when you've led a nice kind of relaxed life? So it's, that's where the pressure comes in. Because you feel the pressure, an expectation to kind of, you know, you need to be happy yourself but also keep everybody else happy, which is a hamster wheel to nowhere.

Yeah, it's so true. So obviously I think your, your main focus is is career. But do you think that men can potentially find, let's say, fulfillment outside? Because like you say, there's those circumstances where essentially you are trapped, you're a prisoner to your own, your own making in that sense. But do you think there's a way that men could potentially find fulfillment and purpose and other things outside of career?

Definitely. And I think that's the important one because I'd rather. And I've seen some men that have got a career that they don't mind, they don't love it, they're not jumping out of bed, you know, punching the air, saying woohoo. Every fun is. But they don't mind their job and they get paid okay money, but then they find a side adventure or a side hustle or something or a hobby that lights them up. And I use my own example was whilst I got to the stage where I was becoming a bit unfulfilled with work, I started doing obstacle course racing because I've always loved being outdoors, being active, you know, running and strength training and etc. And that's what, what gave me the, the thrill I needed that kind of papered over the cracks of what I was missing in my career. Not to say that that meant I would just, you know, you still were unfulfilled at your desk, but that was a gradual feeling. So yeah, I did, I mean four years of obstacle course racing and went from my very first race was at Battersea Power Station and it was a men's health survivor of the fittest race and it was about 5,000 people did it and I came like 200 and I had no idea what I was doing but I came over the line, I was like, oh, I've done all right. And I thought, I wonder if I had the right shoes. You know, my shoelace came undone just after I'd started running as well, which cost me, you know, 20 seconds or something. If I improved all these things, and it's a good kind of analogy for life, if I can implement and improve all these little things a bit, how far could I go? And it was pretty much four years later where I ended up representing the country in the World Championships in America and racing out there against the world's light elite obstacle course races. But just like with a lot of men and women, but for men, that first race, if you just said to me, in four years time you'll be in the World Championships, you'd be like, don't be stupid. There's no way that's going to happen. So you can't see the steps forward sometimes until you're literally on the start line of whatever you're doing, you look back and be like, wow. You know, I could never foresee this happening, basically. So long way of answering your question. I think if a guy hates his job, then a plan has to be made to leave. Not necessarily straight away, but if he doesn't mind it and he's like, you know what? It's not amazing, but, you know, it ticks the boxes. Then if you can find something at the weekends and you've got a good partnership with a wife or have you, then, you know, life can still be good.

Yeah, it's you. I was gonna say something, but you kind of. You kind of ruined it with your success of that. I was gonna say every man still thinks that they could be a professional athlete in something. They're always trying, trying to find that new sport. As you get older, it's like golf. You can be sort of play that a little bit older and you still have that vision making the tour. But I was going to say that about you, but then you actually went and became representing the country.

It's an important one because there's a. There's, you know, a saying of like, you know, or a question statement or a question, whichever way look at it, should, like, know what it's like to feel in the, like, optimal, you know, health condition at least once in his life. And, you know, I know what that feels like. I was, you know, I probably couldn't have got much fitter. And also I was strong and fit and healthy. And, you know, I wasn't just really an elite athlete in that respect. I kind of made sure it was a holistic approach to it. But I felt great at that time and, you know, I still had. I was still at my desk for 200 hours a month. I was entertaining clients at least one night a week. I was flying to Europe, I was going to Ibiza and I was going skiing and I was eating and drinking sometimes, you know, lots of alcohol and what have you. And it wasn't easy, but I still managed to do all that. So when people are always looking for the quick fix and the one supplement or the what have you, like, you know what a lot of time it comes down to consistency, hard work, knowing what you need to do, like, you know, optimizing everything and you will get your results. But I didn't have kids at the time and if I'd have had kids, that would have been a totally different animal.

Yeah, it's. Well, they, they definitely add to it. I, I don't have any kids yet. So I'm. Yeah, I've actually, I've actually sighed with relief there. I do want them, but yeah, no, not in this, not in this decade as, as you, as you put it in this chapters, you always love. So you. I see that as the first step as like, okay, I'm a little bit unhappy. It's not, I'm okay, I'm making decent money, I'm enjoying life, the money's giving me and the fortuous position I'm in now I found another avenue. I've started to work physically on my health. I'm now at peak level and starting to work on mental fortitude for that as well. Because once you get to those echelons of competition, that's the edge, right? Everyone's fit at that level, so do you. Did you see that as the gateway as like, okay, I've done this now, what if I put that energy and this ethos into something else? Is that. Was that the step next?

I'll tell you what it did and it's a really good question because I always say to people, sometimes you need to. Something needs to click for you to see what's possible. And a bit like when I was young and went to London and saw a totally different world to what I saw in Maidstone, that showed me what was possible. But once I'd achieved that level, you don't just become fit, you start listening to top experts and it always spills out from health into mindset. Because actually, if you think about it with health, for most people, if you're super healthy, it's probably because you've got a good mindset because that takes consistency, dedication, getting up early, staying up late, not eating shit all the time and doing those things and that was one of the things that led me on to listening to a podcast about, which is called Mindset by Design. And I'm good friends with the guy now who's based out in the States. But for him, his big thing was about, you know, you can create a mindset by design by learning about yourself and how your brain works, but also you create your life by design. So those races led me to listen to that, and that podcast led me to hear about Tony Robbins and also to think. And it's such a basic question, but it's. So. It's not often kind of thought about by people is what do I really want my life to look like? Because, you know, do you want to work weekends? I mean, I've done coaching with people that have said, I want to do a, you know, whatever job. Like, I want to be a tennis coach. I'm going to chuck my job in a tennis coach. I'm like, great. Like you, happy to work evenings and weekends. I'm not saying you have to, but you probably are. They're like, oh, no, I don't want to work weekends or evenings. I'm like, what do you three. Oh, okay, let me think. I'll do something else. And I'm like, what do you want your life to look like? You know, do you want to have kids? If you don't, then you go on a different path. Do you want to be fit, healthy? Do you want to live in a different country? Do you want to work long hours? Do you want to be able to travel all those things again? You're not taught at school. And I think a lot of people will go through the whole of their life, and if you said, what do you actually want? They'll say, I don't know.

Yeah, it's so true. He won't mind me saying this because we've had numerous conversations since, but my brother's a little bit younger than me, so he's 24, and he's. He went straight into work. So he's. He has his own. He's a barber and he has his own shop. And he's worked his way up in that profession really well. But I think he came to me just before I moved to London, and he said, I want to earn a hundred thousand pounds a year. And I said, okay, cool. Great goal.

Yep.

What are you going to spend off? And he looked at me and he was like, what do you mean? I was like, well, why do you need 100? Where have you pulled this number from? Yeah, yeah, but it's Obviously like you say again, influence from, from social media and things like that. He's seen this as six figure goals. Yeah, the, the goal that you need to, you need to achieve. And he went away with that information and decided like to think about it a little bit more. And I said you might do this exercise and you might need more. Yeah, like it's not, it's not just this holy number, like it's a decent amount of money, don't get me wrong. But it's, there's, there's a side, the other side of it that you might actually want from life.

Yeah.

So he went away and he did that exercise and yeah, at the time he didn't need that kind of money. And I think it took a bit of pressure off as well, which is, that's, that's my biggest concern with outside influence is the pressure that it puts on people, especially men obviously.

And with social media.

Yes. It's just you only see the 1%, you only see the top, the top side of things and it, and it can be quite crushing. And I think that also keeps men in that. What did you call it again?

The silent, silent struggle.

The silent struggle. And it's, it's, it's a, it's a lovely way of saying it, but I think a lot of it is outside influence and things like this are great because hopefully people will hear it and maybe start to make a change and start to go down those things and do that. So with you and you started to get into mindset and obviously that sort of led into this. When did you make the leap? What was the decision? How was that, Was it a tough conversation with your partner? What did that look like?

Yeah, and I think it's important if, you know, I've done lots of podcasts where you talk about the importance of a, of a. As a supportive partner because sometimes, you know, you might have to make sacrifices, let's say to your lifestyle. And you know, we were, we weren't spending money willy nilly but you know, we'd go to, well I was driving a brand new bid WZ4 convertible. So it wasn't exactly a run, you know, that I bought off the forecourt. So I wasn't slumming it in that respect. But you know, we'd, we'd go to nice restaurants, we'd go to Miami and you might spend ten grand, you know, for a, for a, it might be your once a year holiday there, but you'd spend quite a lot of money and suddenly you have to say, listen We've got to. We've got to stop all that, you know, for the foreseeable, because we don't know where the money's coming from, as such. So, yeah, there was multiple things, and I just, I got that stage. A lot of people want you to stay in a role because when you leave, it makes them reflect on where they are in life as well. It's much easier if everybody just stays roughly where they are. So people will always try and keep you safe by telling you, just carry on doing, plodding along. But it was important for me when I started the whole man Academy, I didn't start that. I wanted to do coaching with guys. And the whole man Academy has become a gateway into that, if that makes sense. Because for me, it's like if you're only doing one to one, you can only affect one person at a time, whereas if you're doing one too many, you can affect more people at once. And of course, in theory, let's say you do a talk and one guy hears it, he might, might go and speak to one other person imparting that knowledge. If you speak to 30 people, for example, you've got more chance of them going off. And even if each of them spoke to one more person, suddenly you're, you know, the ripple effect. But getting guys together to talk isn't enough. That's. That's the thing, you know, and actually, it sounds kind of boring to, you know, that's not a great marketing one, is it? Hey, let's get together and talk. Like I'm busy, like I've got time to do that. Which is where for men, again, you look at, you bring men in with the attributes, behaviors and kind of roles and maybe accolades that other men aspire to have so they can learn from them. So you bring in guys from the special forces, you know, you know those elite guys. You bring in kickboxing world champions, you bring in top CEOs, you bring in footballers, the guys that have achieved something out of the ordinary that can impart some kind of knowledge on you. And suddenly that becomes exciting for a guy because I. It's kind of become one of my calling cards when I do podcasts where I explain mental health is an important part of a man, but it's not everything. Because I know guys that have got great mental health, but fucking broke or great mental health, and they're really unfit. So they're like, I don't need mental health support. I need strategies to help me become richer or slimmer or get a nice partner or etc. But there's, there's kind of the makeup of, you said silent struggle. I would say with the guy. You, firstly, you're looking for a guy in the gap. And the gap isn't he's, you know, he's clinically depressed and he's suicidal. That's not my area of expertise that you need to go and sadly go through helplines, charities. I don't think helplines that great. But anyway, I'm looking for the guy in the gap that's unfulfilled, that says, I know I can achieve more, I want to, and I'm prepared to do something about it. Then you're looking at, has he got the awareness? Because some people are like, they're just plodding and years later they look back and realize, I was unhappy for years, but I just plotted along. So you've got guy in the gap, he's got a silent struggle, whatever it is. Is he aware of that silent struggle? Then what are his attitude and intentions? Because if his attitude is, well, nothing can be done, that's I'm broken, or that's just the way I am, or it's the world's fault or it's the government's fault, you're like, no, no, you've got to take some ownership and at some point you've got to do something about it. Once you've kind of rolled that up, you're then finding whether you've got a man that's ready to take action. And that's where the whole man academy comes in and says, look, we've got tools to help. And those tools could be a free podcast, a free quiz, which is a self evaluation tool, personal coaching with me. You could come to dinners, you can join our network, which is, you know, $50 a month, so it's not exactly breaking the bank. You would then join in with a load of other guys who are similar to us, want to do well in life and how good is it to have accountability and stuff? So I try to create a, like a real kind of moving part for men, a personal development platform which meant no matter what your budget or time frame or need, we've got you covered, basically.

Amazing. I think there's, there's a, there's going to be a segue here, but there's obviously that old adage that you're like the five people you spend the most time with. And I think for a lot of men it's quite a lonely world and it might be their partner. Some people, they work with. And it's very easy to fall into that trap. And I can see why people do it. And it takes a brave man, it takes a strong man, it takes a lot of guts to make a decision and sort of move away from where you want to go with no guarantee of success, survival not guaranteed type thing. So I think that creating those networks and creating those spaces where men talking is just how you communicate. Right. I think men need to talk more is the. Honestly, I think it's the shittest fucking thing in the world. I think it is the most ridiculous slogan going around. The one that's even worse is the helpline on the train station that says, gary, someone will want to listen. It's like, okay, right, that's gonna solve everyone's problem.

Yeah.

Anyway, that's me going on a rant.

I think.

I think.

I think these are very important.

Yeah, well, the clip. Clip gold. Right. And I. Yeah, I think these communities are really important. I think I've seen a lot of newer charities, newer things come out of both Australia and the uk, where it's around doing something and the communication is secondary. I've. My struggle with identity and being a man was I didn't want to speak to someone because I felt that that was useless part of time. And I. I found for me, doing has created a positive mental health as a byproduct. Rather than focusing on mental health, where there are lots of ways to do that, go to therapy and do all these things that can build your. Your mental health. I saw it more as a byproduct of everything else. It was like, if I can get my ducks in a row with fitness, with health, with friends, with family, my mental health will naturally be better because I'm. I'm just a better person in life and if it's still not better, then I can go and address it. I think it's the last thing that needs to be addressed, shall we say? So what have you found in your communities that has been, let's say, a bit of a surprise? Something that you didn't expect to come from those, those community meetings or those networks. What's. What's been a nice surprise?

Funny when I say nice surprise, I knew that it would be valuable, but we've now got. I can't remember. It's 21, 22 men and it's called the network. You know, why, why try and come up with some fancy name when you like. Basically, you want to be in a strong network of men. But what I've loved most is the guys to start with, who were like. Because each Monday and every Friday. So we have zoom calls every week and we do like dinners and we've got a retreat in the Cotswolds coming up in March. But on Monday they get a evaluation tool, basically, and on a Friday, a reflective tool to look back at the week. And you never know whether people are going to find it useful or not, because my private coaching clients have found it useful, but giving it to a whole group. But what's been great was I'll log in on a Monday morning to our private platform and literally there'll be like 12, you know, guys have all posted and we all post it in there so you can all see. Because guys would say to me, oh, I. I've had a shit week this week. I didn't want to post that in there because it's bring the energy down. I was like, no, no, this. That's not. That's totally the wrong attitude. That's the time to post it in there. Because I bet another guy will go, hell, that was me as well. I've had a. I've had a week last week, had various things all go wrong all in the same week. That cost me thousands of pounds, hours of time. It wasted my time. And I said there, honestly, guys, I've had a week this week. You know, it's just every time my partner popped ahead around the door, it was like, this has broken or this gone wrong. And the other guy's like, yeah, I had a week as well. I was like, great. It hasn't got to be that you only tell people when things are going well, because that's not real life. You know, the kids, you know, might have wet the bed or woke you up all night or whatever. You know, everything that kind of. That a man is going through, we'd rather experience it together. And I love the fact that some of the guys didn't post anything for a while and then after a while have watched what's going on and like, yeah, guys, this is me, actually. I've had this or that or I'm sick of my job or whatever and blossomed. Especially the men that didn't have a partner at home. Because it is hard when you're on your own. So for me, it's the community doesn't sound the most powerful, exciting, sexy thing to talk about. But actually feeling like you've got other men that get you and it's just like, I don't care what you say, there's no filter. That for me is kind of A priceless kind of tool to have.

It really is. I think there's obviously a lot of people doing these and doing certain things and I think it's finding the right one that fits for you as well. I think the, the cost or the availability of these is increasing, which. The cost is decreasing, sorry. And the availability is increasing. So it's a lot easier to try and test and find people that you can find similarities with. And I think you'll naturally, you'll naturally find those people with whatever's resonating with you as well and find that community and start to start to, to grow in it. I think it's really important. I. There was a study done with men and women about retirement and how men live used to, well, still technically live less longer lives than women. And it's primarily because once retirement comes around, women have built up a network of friends and community based on just how roles were. So like they would go to the school gates, drop the kids off, talk to the mums, maybe go to yoga.

A coffee morning or something.

Yeah, exactly. Men would go to work and that's the only place that they would meet other men. And then when they retired, they didn't have the going to work interaction with men. And that's one of the reasons that men have a shorter lifespan is that they don't have that connection outside of work. And I think it's really, really, really important to go and find it.

I think it's him. So, yeah, you know, those things probably tell us what if we thought about it, we kind of knew already. But it's interesting to see any kind of data because, you know, I live out in the countryside now and I've seen it where I spoke to a lot of guys where they'll kind of, after a while, admit, you know, it's okay to admit sometimes that you felt a bit lonely. And loneliness isn't because you're not a good person or you're not fun dinner. It's because maybe you've moved to a new town or, you know, you've split from your wife and all your friends were based around your, your social circle was through your wife, if that makes sense. And suddenly, you know, all Gary and Dave and Brian, who you sometimes met at barbecue, are like, I can't talk to him anymore because he's not with his wife. So when I moved to the Cotswolds, I, I don't think I realized at that time that I felt a bit lonely because I saw clients, but I didn't have my mates Here because I didn't have kids. My kids don't go to school, they're homeschooled. So you wouldn't meet people through that. I didn't play football around here. I didn't work in an office. I worked on my own. So there was no outlet to go and meet guys. And just because you meet guys, it doesn't mean you're going to get on with them because often wives and girlfriends do is, oh, I've just met Jane up the road and you're gonna really, you're gonna get on so well with her partner and straight away, like. But I don't, like, whatever. But you don't know. You and I don't know, you know, we, we've chat a lot, we get on really well. But sometimes you can meet people. You're like, it's just not, it's not for me. So for men, I think it's so important if it's online or personal, you know, in person. Just like you said, if you can find guys to hang around with, you don't need 50, you don't need 20, you don't need 10, you probably need two or three mates, you know, that's it. And I'll tell you a really nice story. One of the guys I'm doing personal coaching with, he, for various reasons had kind of fallen out with or fallen out of touch with his best friend about three years ago. And it was kind of a typical thing where you were both going through a bad time at the same time. You both needed each other for support, but the other one didn't feel like they could because you're having a shit time. And when we sat down and did some personal coaching, one of the big things I could see was this weighing on his mind. And I was like, listen, pride aside, if you could press a button now and get in touch with your friend again and him hang out and go to the stuff you'd go to again, would you? He's like, yes, okay, well, what's stopping you? Well, you know, I might feel silly or he might say, no. I said, listen, if you contact him and send him a very brief message, hey, mate, I was in a shit place when we stopped talking. I really miss your company. I'd love to go to the pub with you again. You don't have to send some big kind of email, literally a few lines. If he doesn't reply, you've lost nothing. If he does reply and tells you to off, at least you know, But I bet he doesn't. And Guess what? He said it. And I think within 20 minutes he got a reply back saying, fucking hell, mate, I'm exactly the same. I'd love to meet up with you. And that next weekend they went and did whatever it was to get a horse racing or something and are now like really good mates again. How important is that? Can be life changing. It's such a. It sounds obvious and simple, but it is until you actually do it.

Yeah. There's again, there's another, another thing on this. It's. I think it's that competition thing again. It's like I don't want to show that sign of weakness and that pride element again as being a man. And I think, yeah, I've got a really good friend from school and I. He's done the traditional stay in the. Stay in the town, build that way. And I've. I can't sit still. So I've been in Madrid, Indonesia, Singapore. I've been everywhere. And I come back after maybe six months a year, been to London, like two and a half years, come back and I will walk into his house and sit on his sofa and we will just have a conversation as if it was yesterday that I was round. Like, we're not. It's not like he's not like, oh, how's London? What's this? It's just. We're just going to talk about stuff. Essentially golf and just. It's now golf. But yeah, and reminds me and it. And it really. Like, I'm really grateful for that relationship because it reminds me of my. My granddad. So When I was 14, we went to Belgium because he was stationed there during the war and he met a guy from Belgium who they became good friends and during the war. And then obviously my, my granddad left and came back to the UK and they kept in touch via letters and things, and that his kids and my mom and my uncle had been over to Belgium and vice versa, and they kept in touch, but they'd never seen each other.

Yeah.

And I think my granddad was in his mid to late 80s at this point. And my uncle drove us down and just before we left the house, he picked up this book and it was like a vertical365 images of the world, one for each day. They were like David Attenborough style photos. I was like, what are you gonna do with that? He's like, I'm gonna show it to Jacques. I said, all right, okay. So we drove down and we met in this lobby of the hotel that we were staying in. So his family came and we would sort of standard introductions to everyone. Hi, nice to meet you, blah, blah, blah, great to see you. And we're like, where's, where's Jacques and Reg gone? And we looked around the corner and they were sat in the lobby on one of the benches and they were just like. He was just going through the book with him going, look, look at this picture of the rainforest. And like, yeah. They're not seen each other in like 45 years.

I love it.

And the only thing they wanted to talk about. Yeah. Was wrenches.

Is that things. It's a bit like we said, you know, finding people that resonate with you. I mean, one of the big. On the radio intervals on yesterday, they asked me about one, one of my big bits of advice to people in business. And I was like, one of the most important things, if you're in the. In, in. How can I put it? Not. I don't talk about if you're running a little light shop locally or something like that, but to be as polarizing as possible because you want to find the people that resonate with you as quickly as possible. And that being that, you know, you know, when you find people that like the thing that you like, you just, you can spend all your time with them and you have in jokes and stupid stuff when you're out of alignment with people because they don't resonate with you, it just doesn't feel the same energy. And I think that applies in your personal life, your love life and your business life, if that makes sense. We all know when you, you could sit next to someone that you just get on so well with and the day goes quickly, they could leave the office and they sit some next to you who's a total bell in. And you just sit there and like, you know, you're looking at your clock and you're like, it's, I've been here for half an hour, it feels like two hours. And I think that's so important. Like if you can find those people that, you know, you just, you just love being around with and can be totally yourself with, then you're, you know, you're on the right path.

Yeah, I completely agree with that statement. I think it's super important. And I think for me is the one thing that I want men to do more of is go and find people that you like now that you resonate with or you want to be around because it's so, so, so important. And I like, it's just the one thing that I want people to sort of do. So let's talk about your next shift. Right, so you're, we've talked it like decades, 2028-38 and that and that sort of thing now. So you're a family man. What does that mean? How have things changed? What does that look like for you?

Yeah, so I've, I, we, myself and my partner emma have got three boys. One is, will be seven soon, one will be five in September and we've got an 11 month old baby as well. And it's funny you bringing that up. It was actually Emma that said to me much as we'd like to have more kids, you know, even three kids brings its own challenges. You, you'd need a bigger house. We had to buy a bigger car because you can't fit especially if they're all a fairly small you, you can't get three isofix child seats in most cars. So you know, things change when you have more than you know that your, your two children. But what we said was now that our little baby is 11 months old, we're ready to move on to the next chapter of our life. So having newborn babies and pregnancies stuff has been amazing. But it's like, you know, that has been basically seven years of our life has been some kind of baby pregnancy all combined. So for us it's now Emma's just about to start. So Emma's a naturopathic nutritionist and knows a hell of a lot about how toxic some of the substances are in a lot of the products that people buy for their children. Things like in your laminate flooring and what that will have in it and the chemicals that affect children, especially small ones, you know, the clothing they're wearing, all the different things that people unknowingly expose their kids to. So Emma's about to start a new role as the co face of a children's children and parental brand called the Conscious Parents. So she's working on that in between home educating the kids, which isn't easy. And my thing is basically 90% of my time is just growing the whole mad academy. And one of the hardest things for me has been the sleepless nights for the kids. Now that with our first baby he didn't sleep through the night for about a year and you know, I thought oh that was quite hard. And I was like there's no way the second one will be as bad as that. But he didn't sleep, he didn't sleep through the night for three years. So you become accustomed, you get used to it. But even if you're, you know, I try and stay as healthy as I can. I eat very well, I very rarely drink. You know, I do all the things you should. But still, when you're getting broken, sleep night after night after night for 300, 600, 900 nights in a row, it's going to take its toll on you. So that's a way of saying, you know, now we're still going through the sleepless nights with Baby three, but we know that when Farley's that little bit older, he will, you know, it will improve. And it's like we both want to move on to the next phase of our life, which is me growing the whole Man Academy to impact more men, grow the network, which is probably my main priority. And Emma doing what she does with the home, educating, but also growing the brand that she's now working for. But it's a constant juggling act. And with the cost of living, you know, I speak to a lot of people that are affected by it, by interest rates. And I saw some men and women, but, you know, men who, I said on a interview a while ago, you know, they might have a nice house and a nice car and a decent job and a decent salary, and they had one and a half grand left over each month after all their bills were paid and, you know, all good. And then suddenly interest rates go from, you know, 1 to 6% and depending on what their repayments are. Have you suddenly, maybe a lot of that money is now wiped out. And even if it wasn't, the increase in food and energy and travel and everything else has meant that they've gone from being kind of fairly affluent and comfortable to suddenly thinking we can't afford that now or we have to rein things in. So it's the same for us as most people, you're juggling money as well as your time, your energy, your mind, sometimes your sleep, your health, your fitness, your family. So, yeah, the next year or two will be really big for the whole Man Academy. And one exciting thing is we've got our first Whole man retreat coming up in March. And I'm the big one of. And, you know, you could learn from this as well. Sometimes you've got to. When I say make it up as you go along, pick a date, decide what you're going to do and work your way back. Don't have all the answers and details. So I did that Emma last, because I'm like, right on the 23rd, 4th of March, I'm having 15 men come to The Cotswold. She's like, where are they going to stay? Like, I don't know. It's like, what are you going to do? I was like, no. So I have no idea. Like, that's not, that's just details. Do the men want to come to Cotswolds, have talks, fire pit stakes, long walks, a gong, bath, you know, sleep under the stars, etc. If that sounds good, you're going to come to us. If it doesn't, off you go. And basically all the men I spoke to were like, I want to come. So, yeah, that's what I'm excited about is, is that will be our first one of those we've done and I will learn a lot from that and then look to do more of those as well.

Yeah, I love that. Just stick your stake in and we'll find the string. Yeah, I like it. Yeah, it's cool. So, I mean, there's some big decisions in there. So, like, this is, this is a question that sort of linked to, I guess, to your upbringing as well, right? You. You talked about your, your dad and the role model that he was. What are you trying to do with your kids? Because they're all boys, right? So, like, it's, it's quite apt with what you're doing, like sort of going down that. So what, what have you taken from your father? And what are you, what are you changing? What do you, what do you want to envision onto your kids?

Yeah, I. It's a good question because I'm. I'm similar to my dad, like all of us. You'll be similar to your dad and your mum in some ways. But, you know, my dad and I are very different. He's very kind of analytical. Like he, when he was younger, could take engines apart. He can do wiring, plumbing, you know, all that stuff. I just not interested in that stuff. I never have been. So, you know, I, I've been lucky, really, with my father, that he's actually. I can be crap at those things because he's. He comes and does them for me. But I realized with my kids that my son Hudson, he loves woodwork and everything, so I have to kind of force myself to be interested in it because I know he's looking to me to kind of test things out. So it's a real balancing act with kids because you want to, you know, you shouldn't be there to be your child's friend as such, you know, you want them to look up to you and they know they feel safe and secure and you know, they can trust you and they can come to you, anything. But you also have to have some level of discipline with children so they don't just take the piss, which is really hard, with little point that boys or girls, you know, kids of that age have no ability to listen to instructions. And they've been my biggest challenge because I don't think I ever lost my temper until I had kids. And I was interviewed by or interviewed a psychotherapist who spoke about that, where, you know, sometimes what you realize as a. As a man is that until you have kids, like, no one's ever laughed in your face. But as a kid, you'll be like, right, stop doing that and don't do this, what have you. And they'll just stand and, like, laugh at you. And if someone. I'm not saying if you did, no one would do that in the office. And if they did, you might end up like, I'm not saying you'd smack me in the face. But you just don't experience that. You might only experience that when you were being bullied or something like that. So, yeah, when kids just do stuff. And, you know, we had it the other day where Bowie, my middle child, was holding this big pot of all crayons and everything. And he's holding it, and I told him 10 times to just, we're going out the door now. Just put it down. So he just held it like this and then just lets go and just. It just cracks all over the floor and everything. And I'm like, what are you doing that for? And he's like, you told me to put it down. And you're like, he knows I didn't mean that. But it's said to try you. So there's old saying, you know, you learn more about yourself when you have kids than you do about anything else. So it's a constant balancing act. And again, I said, our kids don't go to school. We plan to home educate them. I don't believe the education system is as optimal, let's say, at the moment, as it could be. And some of the shit that they've been taught about, you know, the sexualization of children in schools is not. Not a great area to kind of have to kind of even consider with kids. So we're very glad that our kids don't get any part of that at all. And they just spend their time doing what they love and hanging around with all their friends who do, you know, do fun stuff, basically. So it's not without its challenges having Kids and being a dad. But I want to be that strong man that they see me in the gym, they see me out, they know I work long hours, but I love what I do. But I also have as much time as I can to just sometimes just lay on the floor messing around with them and stuff like that. But it's always a bunch of that.

Yeah, I. Well, I don't. I don't know. I am. I don't have any kids yet. And I. Weirdly, all my friends have had girls, which is. It's quite interesting. So, again, completely different relationship altogether with. With girls and fathers. But, yeah, I'm. I'm. I don't. I don't envy you because I'm still in my I'm getting shit done face. Yeah. But I'm definitely looking forward to it. I think. I. I spoke to someone the other day and they were like. Because societal pressures of, like, you're in your 30s when you're having kids, like, obviously, my people are like, dad. Yeah, like, it still works. Don't worry.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's like my dad had me when he was 31 or 30, so, like, it's. For him now, it's like a question of, like, I'm past his age. Yeah. And then I had it. I had this conversation with someone that I went on a date with, and I was like, yeah, I don't want kids yet. But that's why I exercise. Because when I do have kids, I want to be able to run around with them, play with them. And, like, that's what I've sort of set out as. Like a. As a. As a goal is like, I. I want. If I end up having kids in my 40s, then so be it. But my goal is when I have kids, I want to be physically.

You don't want to be the fat, weak, pathetic man, the dad. You'll have other dads. I mean, you know, there's a guy I follow on Instagram who's, I think in Australia, I don't even know, but he does. He's funny, like, mean. You know, reels where he's in really great shape. You know, he's. He's a muscly dude and what have you, low body fat, which, you know, at least shows he's got dedication to, you know, working out. I don't know what else he does, but he'll do videos running along the street just in his shorts, just being like. Just showing the other dads what they should be, should, should look like and how they should, you know, show up for their kids. And you're right, you don't want to be the fat, weak, pathetic dad, especially if you have kids slightly older, because you're going to look stupid in front of the others.

No, definitely. And I, I think I've not. I've not decided on educational paths for my kids, but I think I want to win a dad's race, so.

Oh, they don't do this anymore. No, no, no.

What come.

Because, you know, that's because of diversity and inclusion and, you know, someone, one of the dads who's fat and slow and weak might, you know, miss out. So I, I don't know because our kids aren't at school, but I was told that they, you know, they kind of took those things away because someone might get offended if they don't win.

Oh, fuming. I'm actually fuming right now. That was my goal.

That's.

It was to win one of those.

Just forget kids now. That's it.

Yeah.

It's a really important point, though. I mean, we, we kind of touched on men and competition and one of my first things, when, like, we decided to home educate the kids, I don't know if I even told Emma this, but I was like, I've always fantasized about when the kids get old enough that there's a dad's race, you know, I'll be everybody. And now I don't think I, you know, kids, our kids don't go to school. So I was like, you know, my nephews are like 14 and 17. I was wondering if I could go along and like, do. Do their, you know, go to their sports day instead.

So, yeah, just take the reins. Just.

That's it.

Just set one up. Anyone who's interested in actually seeing who's the better dad, let's go have a rest. Yeah, definitely. Cool. So I want to sort of touch finally on the future and what's important to me and what's important to you and this space. So what do you think is missing in. In the man space or what is needed more of? And what do you see the whole man academy doing next?

Yeah, one of the biggest. What podcast was it I was interviewed on? I kind of lose track of podcasts. And it's like yourself, you know, the more you do of things, you'll. You'll kind of remember. But I was interviewing a podcast with a guy in Australia and he said, what's the biggest threat to men today? And I said, the government. And he said, right. And he, he understands that as well. And My point is, I think for a lot of men, when you look at the, firstly, the economy, you know, I, from my years of experience, it's deliberately manipulated. And, you know, I, I think the economy is in a very, very bad state at the moment. But the, the normal man on the street is getting taxed out of his ass, if that makes sense. I mean, you look at not just your, you know, the income tax, inheritance tax, the, the council tax, all the different things which don't really help a man. So there's, there's the overarching dread that the media create. And it's deliberate. We all know there, you know, the media running unison with the government. When you look through Covid, you know, the, the, all the advertising for the media was basically from the government. They were their biggest customer, so they ran with whatever message the government wanted them to say, you know, in complete lockstep. So I always think that for a man, if he can stay away from the media as much as he can, or at least when you view it, view it through the lens of this is manipulation to create dread. And if people don't realize that the media is there for that, they should understand that the media is a selection of stories. They don't show all of the news in the world because of course, they couldn't. So someone sits there and says, what should we show today? And that will evoke a feeling, an emotion in people. So that's always one of my things is for guys, the media have got worse and worse and worse in the last few years. And I'm talking even men's health and stuff like that. I think in years to come, people will look back at some of the stuff they published and say that wasn't very wise, it will have had a detrimental effect on men. But when you look at the whole man academy, I have to look at my own little pot, if that makes sense. What can I do? What, how can I affect? So for me, it's taking that guy that has got the gap, then the silent struggle and wants to move on and help those guys become a. Basically a whole man, if that makes sense. So it's funny, people assume when you run this as a business, which it is, you know, in the business of firstly making money to support my family, but also to help men. Is that you, you, you're not trying to appeal to all the men. And you know yourself, you'll have some guys that our discussion, they won't want to hear it, they're not interested, or they just don't like Us because we've got a beard or something. So it's like where are the men that you can find that resonate with our kind of thought process and you can help them and the rest, you know, can go and find someone else. So my big thing for the next, you know, X years is growing the whole man academy to basically impact more men. But the right men for me.

Yeah, I've got the same. Well, a very short story. Basically I spoke to someone in this space who had got a bit of traction and was doing quite, quite well on it. And I was sort of talking to them and asking them about like certain ideas and sort of saying all of these things and we sort of ended up in a bit of an argument, shall we say, on, on certain points and he ended up blocking me on social media and I found it really funny because what was the argument about? It was about the use of like social, like what he was saying and then I was taking elements of it and talking about it in a different way and he felt like it was almost like he, he was sent to save mankind and it was very ego driven and I was like, ah, yeah, yeah. But like, mate, with the greatest respect, there's like three and a half billion people, three and a half billion men on the planet. They're not all going to resonate with you. And like it needs to be changed and tweaked so that it resonates with other people. So for me we, what you said there is beautiful. It's like I want my group of men, I just want more of you because then we'll have more groups of men moving in a, in a positive direction.

Yeah.

And whatever that looks like for them, Unite is, is going to be beneficial to society as a whole.

Right.

Like your purpose and your goal doesn't have to be the traditional manly version of what is seen to be a man. But as long as you're doing something useful, then great, like I don't, I don't begrudge anyone doing anything they want to do as long as it is positive to, to society as a whole. And that's why I want to see more.

I'll tell you what, it's funny you say that it's important because, you know, social media is a funny animal, isn't it? I think we can both agree on that one. And it shows even more why it's important to find people that resonate with you. Now I think I'm a big believer in just because you disagree with some doesn't mean you can't take value from something that they say. And I could list multiple people. You know, some stuff that Jordan Peterson says I think is great. Other stuff I totally disagree with. There's Andrew Tate, who, you know, these guys are all on the same merry go round. You know, they're all kind of useful, if that makes sense, if you're pushing an agenda. But someone like Andrew Tate will say stuff that we won't agree with. And some you'll go, well, yeah, he's right on that. But other stuff I don't agree with, but I find it funny when people, when they find some they don't agree with, they just block them. And that's their right, of course. But I realize that sometimes I've learned more from people I disagree with than people that just are yes men all the time. So, yeah, it's, it's. I find that funny.

Yeah, me too. And I actually really resonate with, with that sentiment as well. I think it's really important to listen to more than one person. Don't be a follower. Like, following is the stupidest thing you can do. Like, you talk about the media, the media is influencers. And this side of things as well. Like, do not take one man at his word. Like, even that is the problem. You look at the problem of Andrew Tate, shall we say, and it's people just solely listening to him and just believing everything that comes out of his mouth. But as a man, it's your job to question what other people are saying because, like, what are you doing if you're just following someone? Like, that is not a manly trait. That is just following.

Yeah.

And it's only going to lead you into a darker, worse place. So, yeah, I think that's.

And you know what? We. I know we haven't touched on those, and perhaps we should do this another time, because the social media and. And you could talk about three or four of the big names in the men's space, as it were, and I would then break down what they've got wrong, which often people will want to paper because they love them and worship them and adore them, which is funny because they've never met them and the people don't even know they exist. But they want to paper over what they've said that's wrong because they love so much of what they said was right, which is fair enough. But, yeah, with social media, I'm very much my suggestion to men, if I work with them personally or in the network, is create more than you consume. You know, if you're sitting There we've all done it. Sitting, scrolling on your phone for hours. You're like, don't dare moan that you haven't got enough money or you haven't got time to go to the gym or you haven't got, you know, your relationship isn't working, whatever. You're busy looking at men online who are doing better than you instead of actually you could be learning something, creating something or just with your phone off seeing the kids, your partner or something like that. But you know, that's. That could be another podcast sometime or two.

Yeah, definitely. I am cautious of time. I've just, just looked. So I don't want to steal any more steal any more of your day. So I'll leave the final, I'll leave the final words with you. Is there anything that you want to touch? Where can people find you? Where's the whole Man Academy? What do people do to find you?

Yeah, I'm lucky that the whole Man Academy. That's wh. Not just H hole. Could. Could. That's probably another, another. Another website. But the Whole Man Academy website is the best place to go. And on there we have a self evaluation tool which you know, a lot of men, over 100 men now have taken, which basically looks at the 10 most important sectors of your life and you give them a kind of a how they're doing a score and it will instantly give you actionable advice and sensible advice what you can do. And we're about to do it where I wrote, it's become really popular. But an ebook called Destroy your weakness, which is a good title and that basically talks about one of the. The best supplement I've ever found for men for energy, which doesn't matter where you are in life. We all want more energy and people like Joe Rogan and Andrew Huberman and Ben Greenfield are all talking about it. So we're literally about to put that live in the next day or two. So if you take the quiz, you get the ebook for free and, and then come and join the whole Man Academy, like read the journal or something basically. Or listen to the podcast.

Amazing. Thank you once again for your time, Anthony. It's greatly appreciated.

Pleasure, mate.