S5:E157🎙️ LIVE with CMD CMSgt Dennis L. Fritz, USAF (Ret.)

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple: to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach BZ.

But then it came. I started seeing deployment orders for Iraq. What is that about? Why are we going to Iraq? You know, what do they have to do with 9/11? And a lot of the young troops were coming to me and their families. Hey, Chief, you know, I was the leader of the enlisted group, you know, and so why are we going to Iraq? I had no answer for them, you know, and I just, I just couldn't live with the fact, well, you know, we're following the orders of our leaders, our commander-in-chief. We're going to guess what, as we are indoctrinated through our military lives. We're going to defend America. Okay, but I have not heard anything about Iraq attacking us. Why? I decided to retire because of the fact I just couldn't see myself sending young troops off to war in something I didn't believe in and didn't know why. Normally we know a true mission. It just bothered me, you know, this thing about weapons of mass destruction. So what? We have plenty of weapons of mass destruction.

All right, welcome to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast. We have a very, very special guest for you today. Before we get started, as is our tradition here, we're going to start with what we call moment of gratitude. This is where we take just a moment every single time that we meet, uh, simply, uh, to be grateful. Now One of the reasons why I do this is because in the military, it's about 20 service members and veterans who commit suicide every single day in this country. And we believe that it's not possible to be suicidal and be grateful at the very same time. So if you would, maybe close your eyes and think about one thing that you are grateful for right now. And for me, since June 10th, almost every day, it's really freedom. I am so grateful for freedom. We live in America, the home of the brave, the land of the free. But, uh, the truth, my friend, is freedom really is not free, is it? Some people have to really make the ultimate sacrifice. So I want to just take a moment again to acknowledge the 18 service members we know about who have given their life for the war in Iran, especially Private Isabela Gonzalez, she really, really breaks my heart. Only 19 years old. My youngest kid, she's only 18, just graduated from high school, about to start college and just looking at the life ahead of her. And this American soldier, her life got cut short. And I truly believe that we as a country, we have failed her. Parents are not supposed to bury their children. And I really don't have any, any words to express the grief that our parents must be going through right now, but God bless America and God bless all of the young Gold Star families. May their sacrifice never, never be in vain. All right, so let me now see if I can properly introduce our guest today. I am really honored and privileged to be speaking to, I believe, a giant in the service because some leadership decisions shape organizations and other decisions shape history. And thanks for joining me for a fruitful and timely conversation with Command Chief Master Sergeant Dennis L. Fritz, U.S. Air Force retired, a distinguished 28-year Air Force veteran, former senior enlisted advisor to 4-star commanders, director of the— former director of the Eisenhower Media Network and bestselling author of Deadly Betrayal. Throughout his remarkable career, Chief Fritz really advised senior military leaders on readiness, morale, and mission success while serving at the highest level of the U.S. Air Force, including assignment at the Pentagon. And today he continues serving our nation by encouraging informed dialogue about leadership, accountability, and the lessons history teaches us. Our discussion today will not be about partisan politics or conspiracy theories. Instead, We are going to examine one of leadership's greatest responsibilities, making difficult decisions when lives, national security, and history itself are on the line. And today's conversation is about leadership. Some of the things we are going to be talking about again is how we make those decisions, and especially in the military, that could be impacting lives. So without any further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast, the one and only Chief Dennis Freds.

Well, good. Go on. Thanks for having me, Coach. Wow, what a great introduction. Make me feel— I had to look around and say, well, who's he talking about? But listen, you, uh, you, you started the show off about, you know, talking about gratitude, and I really mean with all sincerity, uh, you know, gratitude for me today is, uh, thank you, uh, for having me on, you know, with the credentials that you have in leadership and your cybersecurity experience and so forth, and just the legacy that you have. It's an honor for me to be here. And I have that gratitude. And likewise, my gratitude of freedom of speech, to be able to have some candid discussions that we may have today. And you mentioned in my book, and I really appreciate you, and we'll talk about that in the future, but here, but I, the gratitude of me being able to write that book, you know, the freedom of speech to really be candid and then try to— originally it was for, uh, trying to educate those young military men and women that serve our armed forces so bravely. You mentioned about the 18 that have died here recently, Iran War, and in that book of mine, uh, you know, when I look at Emmanuel there, the young man that— when you suppose those pictures, uh, the sergeant there, he, uh Yeah, Michael Swinton. He grew up, he's from my hometown of Fayetteville, North Carolina. I grew up as a military, as we call ourselves, brat, Fort Bragg and Fayetteville, North Carolina. And so that really touches me. And but when we talk about gratitude, you know, the gratitude even with such difficulties that we're going through now and what we went through in the Iraq War. I have the gratitude and thankfulness that I'm able to talk about and try to educate the American public. And as I was going to allude to, more importantly, the men and women that serve our own forces, that give their lives. Yeah, you know, we talk about— well, we're going to talk about this though, uh, Coach BZ. Sometimes we say it's about freedom, but sometimes it's more than that. And that's what breaks my heart, uh, when our folks, you know, uh, you know, give their all, uh, and I'll call it in support of our country. Thank you for having me.

Thank you, thank you so much. Uh, before we get started, Jeff, is there something about you that most people may not know?

Well, this may be shocking, uh, to many, and even, you know, my wife, she talks about it and she has to confirm it with others. You know, uh, you know, when I'm in the public, I guess we'll call myself an extrovert. You know, I'm, I'm a social butterfly, but I am one, uh, I can be an introvert also, where I can be alone and You know, many folks, if you're watching some sporting activity, they like to be in a crowd at some sports bar or something. I can be at home all alone, you know. And so I guess I'm an extrovert introvert because of the fact, you know, I can be a social butterfly, but at the same time I can sit on a corner and be quiet. And that's shocking to many people.

Yeah, I think many people who seem to be extroverts actually are introverts in reality. I might be one of those people too, but I can be extrovert when I need to. If I'm speaking in public or whatever, I will do what I need to do to get the message across. But yes, thank you so much for sharing that. Before we discuss your book, let's talk about the leader behind it, right? Looking back over nearly 3 decades in the Air Force, what leadership principle never changed regardless of rank?

Well, you know, I somewhat have my own principles, you know, I lived my life and as I came to the senior ranks and sharing my thoughts with audiences and so forth, I live on what we call caring leadership. You know, that's a principle I always want to carry with me is caring. You know, you have to care about not only the people that work for you and with you, but you have to care for your leaders too. Sometimes we have to guide them. And so I've always lived a principle of caring leadership. And then also the most one, probably just as important is integrity as well. You know, I've tried to live my life with integrity and honesty, especially when you're leading people, because they depend on you. And so if I had two major principles to be caring and integrity, those probably are so important.

Man, I really love that when you say caring leadership. Nowadays, people talk a lot about servant leadership, but really you can't serve anybody unless you care for them. Us, and that is so crucial.

Do—

why, why did you join the U.S. Air Force, or just the military in general?

Wow, what a great question, Coach. I tell you, and I just had this conversation, um, uh, with a former colleague, uh, yesterday. Now this may surprise many, and, and one of the things, like I said, it's about being candid and having integrity. Uh, I had no desire to join the military, really. Yeah, and that's what shocks a lot of folks. I had no desire whatsoever. Uh, I grew up in a military town, uh, as I stated earlier, uh, Fort Bragg, North Carolina, um, home of the 82nd Airborne Division, if you will. And, um, and so, uh, you know, I had no desire. I, I got to be quite frank with you, uh, that was, uh, I— it probably came about, uh, during the Vietnam War where I saw my father, uh, go to Vietnam, and then I had cousins to go into the Army and to go into Vietnam. And I got to tell you, Coach, they didn't come back the same. You know, I had a cousin that left— brilliant mind. He went into the Army to get the benefits of the GI Bill, which at the time was going to college free. And I had another cousin to go in. He just wanted— he started as his only way to get into the middle class. But both of them came back not the same individuals. And I want to talk about that in the future when we talk about wounded warriors and so forth. And didn't come back. And, you know, as a young man, that touched me. Oh, I do not want no part of the, you know, the military. But I got to tell you, back in those days, uh, recruiters could come to your high school. In fact, I'd already been accepted to go to North Carolina Central University, uh, HBCU school in, in North Carolina. And the recruiter came to my high school, and, um, and, uh, man, he— boy, I tell you what, he was a good salesperson, you know. And one of my good friends at the time said, hey, Let's go down to the recruiting station. Oh no, I'm not going, I'm not going. And he talked me into it. And now here's the story. Now, the irony of this story is that he ended up not going in and I went in. But I must tell you, Coach BZ, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. And probably if I had not gone into the United States Air Force, you and I would not be talking today. Wow.

Is there a reason why you chose the Air Force as opposed to the Navy or the Marine or the Army.

Well, nothing against the Army, but as I stated earlier, I saw what it did to some cousins and some others. As I say, I grew up in a military town, and I, I said, you know what, uh, I think I'm gonna go in the Air Force, you know.

I love it. That's just amazing. And then you ended up retiring as an Inanwite Command Chief Master Sergeant. Less than 2% of people who joined the military end up at that pay grade. Wow.

That is actually 1%.

1%. Yes. Yes.

And for all the other services out there, I know your, uh, parent service is the Navy. That's the Command Master Chief, and, um, for the Army, Command Sergeant Major, and then for the Marine Corps, Sergeant Major. Yeah, so we call it Chief and Command Chief.

Yes, that is just amazing.

Wow.

Because I must say, after 9/11, I knew I had to join the military, but it was to me really between the Air Force and the Navy. The Army and the Marine, that wasn't for me. But part of the attraction of the Air Force, you guys definitely have the best food, hands down. And you almost always have a golf course in every one of your bases. I'm like, what, what's up with that?

And I tell you what, we used to get picked on about, about that by the other services, you know. But I got to tell you, there's a reason behind that. You know, when we talk about leadership, uh, Coach BZ, you know, we, um, during that time, the Air Force was highly technical, you know. And it's not like today where we do a lot of deploying, you know. Back in the day, the Air Force really fighter aircraft and the support teams, you know, with them. But now, you know, all that has changed and we all deploy. But the Air Force is highly technical, and, um, as part of the leadership scheme to retain those that we kept into the Air Force, we kept them by way of bribing them with quality of life, you know. As, as, you know, as the Army will say chow hall, and Army and Marines will say chow hall. I don't know what the Navy called it, but we called them dining facility. You know, best lodging. And of course, you know, we're going to have the golf courses too. But yeah, so that was part of our recruiting scheme and retaining scheme. Because once we trained you in all that highly technical stuff, you know, we wanted to make sure we kept you as well. So that was the reasoning behind our high quality of life.

That's really amazing. Because my, my wife's family is on her mama's side, they're from North Carolina, North and South Carolina. And my father-in-law retired E-5 Tech Sergeant, US Air Force. Very, very proud of this service. Actually, my wife was a military bride just like you, and she told herself she would never marry a military man, and I wasn't one when we got married, but after 9/11, I'm like, I have to join the fight, I just have to. So she gave me permission to do so. I'm so grateful for that. But wow, it's just amazing how life sometimes just shapes out. But what does being a command chief actually mean And what responsibility did you carry for America's enlisted force in the United States Air Force?

Well, Coach Beasy, I must tell you, it carries a lot of responsibilities, you know. And what do I mean by that? You're actually, you know, the senior enlisted leader of an installation of a major command, if you will, for your audience who's not, you know, affiliated or familiar with the military, you know, a major command like Pacific Air Forces. Which I was actually the Senior Vice Command Chief of Pacific Air Force. And that— what does that entail? That entails all our bases we have throughout the Pacific region, you know, whether it be Korea, Australia, if we had— we had folks there, Japan. And so I was responsible, I was a senior leader of all those folks. And, and so it carried a great weight on my shoulder. I was their spokesperson to the senior leadership. And my job was to to carry their message, if you will, back to the leadership and, oh, by the way, to provide answers to them of their concerns. And so it's a big burden, if you will. And not only that, I mean, you got to carry yourself very professionally because of the fact you also, believe it or not, you represent your commander to the civilian community as well, because, you know, we have to have great relationships with our civilian communities where our bases, you know, are. And so, uh, carries a lot of weight, a lot of responsibility. And, uh, I want to go back and hark back to my leadership. It takes a lot of caring leadership because, um, the senior enlisted see you as their savior to the senior leadership to carry their message, uh, to the policymakers.

That is really powerful. And, uh, how did serving as an advisor to multiple 4-star generals, including the chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff, which is pretty amazing, how did that shape your understanding of leadership?

Hey, I got to tell you, when you talk about history, though we weren't dressed accordingly because we were running, uh, from a car into the house there, you won't believe that. That was in Greenland at the time. This place we call, you know, wow, Greenland, if you will. And now that was my former boss, uh, General Richard Myers, who went on to be the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And, uh, as you know, Greenland has been in the news here lately. And, uh, yeah, and so when I was in, uh, Space Command, the base at the time was called Thule, Greenland. And so Greenland was our responsibility. But I got to tell you—

Even the President of the United States, I mean, just being in the same room as them, I mean, what must have that have been like?

Well, I tell you what, it was a very learning experience, if you will. You know, I was in the room, you know, with the senior policymakers.

Man, little boy from North Carolina.

There you go. Listen, I gotta tell you, you know, I am one blessed and individual, if you will, to come from, you know, like you said, look, kid from North Carolina to be able to travel and advise 4-star generals, as you saw, I just saw the photo you put up there to fly on Air Force One would have never happened, you know, if I had not joined the military. So as I stated, as a person who's never had any desire to join the military, It's been very rewarding to me. But going back to your question about, you know, 4 stars, one of the things I found— I'm glad you showed that picture of Myers and myself. That's one of the discussions we had. You know, we saw— we have candid discussions, if you will. And he said, you know, Chief, you know, I sometimes have to alert myself, hey, you know, I'm a 4-star general. But what people must remember and recognize, I put on my pants like everybody else. And that's what I admired, you know, about General Myers. And we can have some discussions later. Because we had plenty of disagreements, General Myers and myself. Well, that's one thing about leadership, which I admired about him, is that, you know, he believed in collaborative leadership. You know, if it was a decision that was going to be made that impacted enlisted personnel, he made sure I was in the room. But when you're advising 4-star generals, you got to, you know, when we talk about integrity, you know, you got to have the integrity to be able to tell the 4-star commanders not what they would wish to hear. Hey, everything's going fine. The morale is high. The troops are loving you. No, I've always candid, and I was very fortunate. Now the four stars that I've worked with in particular, I talk about General Myers and General Lorber. They listened to the candid feedback that I gave them that was not coming from me, but coming from the troops. And then at the same time, I did give my personal opinion. But the thing I will leave you with, uh, and something that, you know, Myers had mentioned to me, The 4-star generals, they put on their pants just like everybody else. And for me, a person that worked around them, they have the same emotions and everything. You know, when we talk about leadership, uh, Coach BZ, I had, you know, a 4-star general to cry on my shoulder. I had another, uh, general that went on to be a 4-star general to cry on my shoulder. And you know, when you talk about leadership, and I may be jumping the gun on you, but you know, 4-stars and generals, they wear their pants just like everybody else. And that was one of the things that I'd learned, you know, working— they have the same human emotions, uh, that all of us do as well. And as I mentioned, you know, about a, a, uh, a 4-star general crying on my shoulder and one that went on to be a 4-star crying on my shoulder. It was all about leadership, believe it or not, you know. Uh, you know, we have to be candid. We had a philosophy in the Air Force years back because we were not led by fear. And, uh, when we were out in the Pacific Air Force, a guy I was working for at the time, General, uh, John Lorber, 4-star general in charge of Pacific Air Forces. You know, we carried that, you know, that torch. We were not by fear, you know, you know, we're going to motivate you and inspire you to do the job, not leading by fear. I got to be quite frank with you. I can't stand leaders that lead by fear, or I know how to give orders and all that. No, anybody can do that, you know. But, uh, anyway, I'm gonna get off on a tantrum here when we talk about leading by fear. But I remember, you know, we had a commander at our base doing exactly that, leading by fear. They were coming to me and saying, hey, you know, telling me and everything. And then, I mean, it was so frightening. I mean, it was like the folks were scared to talk. I would be walking down the hall, and this is no joke now, folks would grab me and say, Chief, can you come in here? And they were telling me. And so I took that information back to that, and he didn't react to it. And I was in shock. He didn't react to it until finally it blossomed up where it became a threatening, uh, to a threatening environment, where it became a hostile environment. And in fact, it became a case where that particular person, you know, really grabbed a junior officer. Now, why am I telling you that? Uh, sometimes, you know, we have to act on things, you know, in leadership that we may not want to accept. And then that 4-star general I mentioned that cried on my shoulder, he said, Chief, the reason I didn't react is that because of the fact I personally hired that individual I was grooming that individual. And I didn't want to react. And he said, now I'm going to have to fire him. But guess what? That general called his office and admitted his mistake and told me why he wasn't, you know, acting. And so the lesson I learned from that as a leader is, I went to another former, former boss of mine and told him, sir, General, if you ever have a complaint against me, If you ever have anything, you investigate that. He looked at me like I was crazy and he said, Chief, are you serious? I said, yes. I said, you know why? That's how things fester up. You know, when you have things, you know, going on in the installation or in a command and people say, well, how did it get so far? How did this happen? Because leadership didn't respond to that. And so I told that commander, if you ever get a complaint against me or anything, you investigate that. And, uh, it so shocked him, he went into our staff meeting and told the entire staff, I've never heard anything like that. But you have. We're not immune. Leaders are not immune from doing wrong, you know. And I know probably you talk to me about loyalty, and we can get into that in a few minutes. We're expecting that even more. Okay. Wow.

But this is really touching because everything you are saying, Chief, it's really all about humility and trust. And how do you keep humble? And also, how do you build trust, especially within your team when you don't have much time and you're about to go on a deployment? How do you build that psychological safety where your people don't have to rush, rush, but they can come and speak freely? And how do you do that? Especially when you get at the highest level possible as an enlisted man, I mean, that is just amazing, right? I remember myself once I became a senior officer as an O-5 commander in the Navy. Yeah, for just a second, I was like, Wow, I just can't believe that. And sometimes you get that big head drill, just a little bit arrogant for just a second. But then you remember, no, my wife is the one who did it for me. You are only human. No, sit down, shut up, Commander Zinga. You are Bob Fabien Zinga in this house. So, but how do you keep that sense of humility and how are you able to build trust within the troops?

What another great question, Coach BZ. That's maybe why your reputation precedes you in leadership, because what a great question. And I've lived my life with humility. You know, I, I said something earlier, I wasn't kidding when you, uh, had that intro. I had to look around the room, you know, because I'm embarrassed, you know, if, you know, if, you know, if I get accolades or whatever the case may be, it really embarrasses me because as General Myers has said, you know, we all put on our pants together. I feel blessed. There's nothing special about me other than I truly care about people and I try to live my life, you know, with integrity. So I was always grounded, if you will. And I just, you know, I told you when we first met, hey, I could probably give you stories as well. You know, one of the things when, you know, when you talk about people in humility, let me just say this. You talk, I think you mentioned earlier about servant leadership. We've heard that, but I take it a step further. I, when I used to go to what we call chiefs orientation, the E-9s that were being promoted to chief and give speeches and so forth and lectures and so forth, always say, don't get too big for your britches because you made chief. You just happen to be lucky, if you will. You know, you may have worked hard, but you were lucky as well. Because I really mean this all sincerity. I know many of EAs that ran circles around me and never achieved.

You follow? Less than 1%, huh?

Exactly. So I was blessed and lucky. And so what I used to tell those folks, you need to serve and not be served. Wow. And what do I mean by that? Don't get too big for your britches. You just said, oh, I'm somebody now. Now everybody's gonna serve me. No, your job is bigger now. When you talk about the responsibilities of being a, a command chief, if you will, just alone a chief or commander. Your job is to serve and not be served. And so that's really important. Another story I'll tell you about humility and understanding. See, we as leaders at the time, you know, I can't say now I'm retired now, but I still try to do leadership things, you know, that come my way. But, you know, one of the things I used to do, I used to go to different graduations for different academies, if you will, you know, the enlisted side, that's what to be the the Noncommissioned Officer Academy, the Senior NCO Academy, Sergeant Major Academy. And one of the things I always did was that, you know, you have your DV room for the major command, command chiefs, and the Sergeant Major of the Army, Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force, and all the generals. I will go in and give my respects to them, nice men. But you know what I did? I went out with the audience. I only spent one, maybe 5 minutes in that DV room to give my respect. And after that, I went out there with the troops and their families. And mingled with them. You know, humility. Why should I be sitting back in that DV room, you know, when I got the troops out there? That's humility. I never forgot where I came from, you know. That's beautiful. So that's how I kept that humility, is because of the fact I knew how blessed and how lucky I was. And that you said, never forget where you came from. So I found myself, hey, I need to be out there with the troops, you know. I noticed something too. Sometimes you as a leader, your peers will follow too. When everyone— where is Fritz? Where'd he go? My name started appearing in other commands. Wow, that Chief Fritz. I noticed that others started— you ready for this? Started following me.

Yes. Yes. Wow. That is so beautiful.

I was wondering, people started wondering, where's all the crowd in the TV lounge?

Wow. No, no, this is, this is really a great testament to your legacy. I remember when I became a commanding officer in the Navy, I reached out to all of my mentors throughout the year, and one of them gave me one of the best advice. He says, you know, especially he too used to be enlisted and then he ended up becoming a captain in the Navy, but he told me at least once a quarter you need to spend time with E-6 and below, the white hats. You need to know exactly what's going on on the ground floor, because when you have a CEO, you are sometimes in an ivory tower far, far away from where reality is taking place and you're making all of the decisions that's going to affect them. So you need to hear from themselves without the chiefs, without the junior officer, just get it from, from them what is happening. And that really changed everything, uh, when I was leading that command.

Well, listen, you're gonna get mad at me, Coach, because the fact I just tell you so many real-world experience. Let me show you something about yourself though, uh, you know, being prior enlisted. And one of the things, you know, as, as a major command, uh, senior enlisted, as I say, like your major command, whether it be UCOM in the Army and/or joint service there, but European Command, uh, uh, Pacific Air Forces, if you will. Uh, I, um, would go to all the orientations of all our commanders that were going out in the field and to talk about, uh, uh, enlisted issues for them. And one of the things, when I found out somebody was prior enlisted, I just told them flat out I expected them to be the better officer, the better commander. Why? Because you live the life of the enlisted. You know the hardships, you know the experiences are. So I expect you to be the better commander, the better leader, you know, in our officer corps. Now, another story I want to tell you, when you talk about the time that you spent— and, uh, and look, you're gonna probably get mad. Like I said, I hope we get to all your questions and everything, questions, so forth. But I will tell you, I remember my first assignment as a senior leader. I was out in Yokota Air Base, Japan, and, and One of the things I decided to do my first week there, I was going to go to every major group, if you will. I think we had like 4 or 5 groups that was under the wing commander of the entire installation. And I, I broke it down. I said, when I first get here, I want to meet with the E-1s to E-3s first. Wow. Then from there, I want to meet with the E-4s. Well, E-5s and E-6s. I'm sorry, E-1s, E-4s, E-5s, E-6s, and then the senior NCOs. And then the E9s. And somebody questioned me, well, wait a minute, getting too big for your britches. Why aren't you meeting us senior NCOs first? You know, we're the ones that know everything. Really? I said, well, let me share something with you. And I'm glad I did meet with them because they told me about people like yourself that was— I said, the reason I met with them first, I wanted to know what the young people were thinking. Yeah, you know, help them out. And then you know what else I did? The reason I met with the E5s and E6s who were the primary supervisors and leaders of those E1s to E3s, I want those E5s and E6s to know what the E1s through the E4s were thinking.

Yes.

And how you can help them. And then guess what we'll do next? And then I'm going to talk to those E7s and E8s and let them know what the E1s through the E6s were thinking. And this, this, how you can help them. How you can serve and not be served. And again, you Chiefs, Chiefs, we are the leaders.

Yeah.

Ready for this, Coach BZ? We are those 1%ers. Mm. Leading and representing. So for you big bitches, this is why I went to the E-1s, the E-3s first. And you know what? I'm glad I did because they told me y'all don't listen to them. And I believe it now because if you gonna question me like that, I know what you're doing to them. And so that's a leadership principle that I've always felt that I need to talk to the young people and stay with them. Wow.

I must say, Chef, I almost never read fiction. I like nonfiction because I feel it is more applicable to whatever I'm doing. But I really love this book, Gates of Fire, by Steven Pressfield. There's just one quick line I want to read to you. It's on page 412. He says, I will tell His Majesty what a king is. This king was just extraordinary. He says, a king does not abide within his tent while his men bleed and die upon the field. A king does not dine while his men go hungry, nor sleep when they stand at watch upon the wall. A king does not command his men loyalty through fear— we talked about fear a minute ago— nor purchase it with gold. He earns their love by the sweat of his his own back and the pains he endures for their sake. That which comprises the harshest burden a king lifts first and sets down last. A king does not require service of those he leads but provides it to them. He serves them, not they him. Coach, hey, what you're talking about, isn't it?

Coach, you're killing me. I'm telling you, asking the perfect question and you're giving the perfect example. Now, story time again. Myself and General John Lober out the Pacific Air Force, we left Hawaii You know, they say you can't live a day over. Well, I was able to live days over because of the fact, uh, during the, the 2 years I was out there, my, myself and the 4-star would always, uh, go out to Korea from PACAF, from Pacific Air Force Base in Hickam, and we'll go and visit the troops, uh, on Thanksgiving.

Wow.

If you will, and go out there and visit. But I wanna tell you a story to one of our visits. And the reason I say you can live a story like that, I could go out to Korea and spend the day Thanksgiving with the troops. And then come back because Hawaii was a day behind and spend Thanksgiving with my family. And so I— but let me just tell you a story about what you just said when I— and I'm sorry if I get too excited, that's the extrovert in me. If I was— now if I wasn't with you right now, I'd be the introvert.

Well, sir, you have achieved— you have earned it.

Oh, stop, stop. But let me just tell you this. Oh man, I'm visiting with the four-star, we out in Korea, we go and we always going to the dining facility, not chow hall, Air Force flight life dining facility. And I go in and, uh, I always knew where we were going to be seated, you know. And so I go in, I'm in the line talking to the troops and everything, and one of the troops said to me, well, Chief, we knew you or somebody was in, in, in, in, on the base because when I came to the dining facility, I saw the tables that was all dressed up in silver and the white tablecloth and all that, and we knew you were in town. When he said that to me, I looked over at the rest of the tables and saw them just as plain as can be. I went over to the dining facility manager and I said, would you do me a favor? Remove that nice place setting for myself and the 4-star general and everything else, because this is the troops' dining hall. And if you're going to do that for us, you need to do this for them. You don't do it to showcase us. And then I said, because this is their dining facility. And now I went back to that base once again And everybody had tablecloths.

Wow.

You know, I just— so our job is to take care of the troops. That's that caring leadership, not wearing the big britches, going to put the tablecloth on myself and the 4-star. And oh, by the way, I told the 4-star that, and he agreed 100%.

Yes, that is really something, because as a chief, not only you advise the 4-star flag officer, but you also mentor junior enlisted, of course, but junior officers too, right? Because they, they need that mentorship. So if you could teach one lesson to every young NCO listening right now, junior enlisted and junior officer, what would that lesson be?

Story time again. When we talk about officers and listen, you know, when you're working at the 4-star, you know, everybody's intimidated by rank, if you will. And so I mentored a lot of not only junior officers but senior officers, even your 06s, who were the commanders out there, who— ready for this? Were really somewhat afraid to talk to the 4-star generals. And so I made myself open to them. And I would— they talked to me, hey, Chief, can you really help me out with this and that? And I always used to tell the— when you have the respect and admiration of senior officers, don't abuse that. Hmm. One of the privileges I had, it was not because of me, of my rank or anything, but because of my duties. When I was out in the Pacific, believe it or not, I had priority over what we call, uh, C-12s and C-21 aircraft to get me from point A to point B because it was important for me to be in certain places, you know. So really, in that particular situation, for aircraft, I outrank, you know, some senior officers, if you will, because of the position I was in. But I never abused that privilege. And we had individuals who used to abuse that privilege. If I had a senior officer that was trying to get to point A to point B and I had room, they were getting on that plane. Yeah, because I wanted them to be out there with the troops too, you know. And you had some people abuse it. And guess what, to you senior NCOs who may be listening to this one day, those junior officers, those senior officers are gonna go on one day to be commanders and generals and admirals, and they're going to remember how you treated them. Or if you had some rank of authority and you got too big for your britches and you abuse them because you had the ear of the 4-star or the general officers, they're going to remember that. So when you're a leader, that's why I say it's a lot of responsibility. You're setting the example not only for the enlisted but for the officers as well. And so I used to spend many a time, as I did with the enlisted, the officers as well. And you don't know the impact you have, Coach BZ. There's an individual, uh, that I helped out, and I used to go visit the bases before the 4-stars and say, hey, hint, hint, here's what the boss is going to be looking at. You ready? And you know, you just think you're doing your job. You know, I'm leading, I'm trying to help them be successful. This particular colonel went on to be a 4-star later on, the Chief of Staff of our services. And at that time, when we ran across each other again, I was running the Wounded Warrior Program for the Air Force at Walter Reed here in Washington, D.C., and he came to visit the wounded warriors. And when he saw me, he came and hugged me and he told Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force at the time and all his staff if it wasn't for this guy— wow! I wouldn't be here right now because he saved my life. Don't want to curse but bye-bye. Hey hey inform me I need to get this taken care of before this force starts. He never got us about that. And so what I will tell NCOs you're leading enlisted but you're mentoring and leading Officers as well.

Yes.

So we all got to remember we all in this together and I wanted everybody to be successful, you know. So my legacy is absolutely not only humility and caring leadership, but caring for all.

Yes, yes, absolutely. And for the junior officer listening right now, I'm telling you, you better listen to your chiefs, right? It's 7 for E9, you better listen to them.

But one correction, I always tell folks now, don't listen to all, make sure you find the credible one with integrity and, and all that good stuff too. So there's some bad E9, bad commanders, bad I always say, make sure now that you look at them and say, hey, that is a great chief there, or there's a great senior. So, you know, I always say, not everybody is created equally.

I guess that is possible, but in my entire, what, 21-plus career now in the Navy, maybe only once have I seen a chief I felt like didn't deserve to be. For the most part, they are just excellent. Looks like you guys have just a process, the school they go through, the way you select them, that's just And most get you exactly right.

Absolutely.

Because they really truly care about their people, especially the junior enlisted, which is really who it should be all about, in my opinion. But before we talk about your best-selling book, Deadly Betrayal, there is a question we have received from a member of our live audience, and I would like for you to please answer. They say, how should military leaders handle situations where trust in the chain of command is low.

Wow. And, and, and this is where, you know, when I talk about carrying leadership— and I'll look at it again— how's your military leaders handle situations when the chain of command is, uh, is low, the morale and trusting is low? Listen, uh, Coach BZ, and I always encourage people to have this, man, I can tell you it can be tiring, but I absolutely— and I got the witnesses to prove it and the medals to prove it— and and, and, and so forth. I truly had an open door policy. I really mean it. And my door was so open that, uh, E-1s and E-2s had no problem of coming up to my office, okay? And in order to have trust in the chain of command, you must have an open door policy. And here's a key word: you must be approachable. You must be approachable. And so for those who are experiencing that, maybe, you know, just below the chain of command, you got to have the integrity and, and courage. You hear that about leadership and courage, to be able to go to that chain of command and say, listen, you know, whether it be a first sergeant of a unit or junior officer, whatever, and say, yes, the troops, they're having problems in trusting our leadership. What are we going to do about it? That's when you have some type of commander's call or some type of leadership call. You know, if you truly care about the troops and you're not wearing those big britches, you only care about yourself and you're leading by fear. So what leads troops to lose trust in leadership is that there's no communication. Yes, there's no so-called open door policy. You know, now I will tell you, you know, like one of the things I will tell you, tell you, and I'm sure as a leader, you're probably something you'll probably talk about and ask about is you know, what was, you know, maybe one of the mistakes I made as a leader, if you will, you know, and that could be, you know, you have to be careful when you have an open door policy too, because it can create friction. You know, some of the subordinate commands were, you know, come to me and say, Chief, why is everybody coming to you? You know, I'm their commander, I'm their senior NCO, whatever the case may be. Well, you ready for this, BZ? Maybe they don't have trust In the chain of command. Yes, you know, and so, so you have to build that trust. And those that know there's no trust in the chain of command, you must have the courage and willingness to go to that chain of command.

Yes.

And say, listen, here's the problems that we're having, and there's a lack of trust, you know, because there's no communication. We haven't seen you. You know, I got my first job as a senior enlisted advisor to command chief because of the fact the commander you know, he was hearing from the troops, they never saw their senior enlisted leader, you know, and I got to tell you, and so what I always remember what he told me, and the other thing I'll tell you about leadership too, and trusting the chain of command, I got some good advice from a guy had been a command chief for years, I was in Washington, DC leaving the Pentagon. And he was at what we call at the time Bolling Air Force Base was the home of Air Force District for Washington. And I went to him and said, what advice can you give me in going out there? And he said, you know what he told me? And I've never remembered that. And that was one of my big successes. He said, we all have name tags that you can see Sergeant Johnson, Sergeant Williams, but the best thing that you can do is learn them, learn their first name. You know, as a senior leader, you know, we call by rank Sergeant such, but learn, learn their first and say, don't you know them? I made it my business to do that, Coach BZ. Now I don't know how I did it. There were 3,000 up to 4,000 on that base when I got there. And somehow I'm not going to tell a lie, integrity, and say I knew all their names, but they sure enough thought I knew all their names. And I don't know how I did it because the majority of them I knew. Hey John, hey Bill. And, uh, I tell you, that was my reputation. And I love that, Bill. I went to that base with so-called the lowest morale in the command in the entire Pacific. And when that 4-star came to visit, he came and said, hey, I thought this was the lowest command because those troops were coming to me. You know, hey Chief, how you doing? Hey John, how you doing? And the 4-star looked over and was wondering what was going on. And, uh, and, uh, and that's how I got promoted and got the job at Pacific Air Forces because I guess he wanted me to carry that same inspiration, you know, uh, throughout. I was a junior guy when I was told, hey, you're going to compete for that job. I was on leave in the United States of America and I got a call to say, hey, we're nominating you, you know, to be the Pacific Air Forces Wow. And, uh, and I was a young guy, you know.

Yeah, that's powerful.

But, uh, you know, and so in order to build trust in the chain of command, you got to have open communication, open doors, and, um, and be willing to listen and, and talk to the troops and have thick skin because they're not going to like everything that's going on.

Yes, yes. Yeah, it just reminded me of something my mom taught me, right? Treating everybody with respect and dignity no matter what they do.

Absolutely.

Or social status. You just never, never know. So let's talk about the burden of leadership. Why did this book have to be written, Deadly Betrayal? What inspired you to write the book?

Wow, what a great question. And I got to be honest with self too, and that integrity. You know, when you talked about 9/11 in your past, what motivated you to join? Well, when we had 9/11, at the time I happened to be on Andrews Air Force Base And, uh, you know, when you talk about leadership, it gave me— when I said my blessings and honor, I'm sorry for the unfortunate circumstances, but I was in the Washington, D.C. area. So it helped me, uh, to lead our, our base and our enlisted men and women and officers, home of Air Force One, through 9/11. You know, you had the Pentagon to be hit, where I had many friends that were stationed there at the time. I lost a former co-worker, you know, in the 9/11 hit.. And, uh, you know, we were all gung-ho as you were. I'm going to join the military. Me, we got to get them, you know, those that attacked us or the first time we've been really attacked on our homeland other than Pearl Harbor, you know, but mainland, you know, we were here. And so we wanted that revenge, you know, if you will. And so we did it. But then all of a sudden, as you would see, and I think you saw that piece that you wrote, it was at a book signing event where I said, Iraq, where did that come from? You know, and I, I had plenty of friends in the Pentagon. I had 3 assignments at the Pentagon previously. And my former boss, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, a couple members of my staff was on his staff. Some of the officers that worked with me were on the staff. And they— I was asking them, what is the intel? We're not seeing it down the field. Why are we going to Iraq? The troops were coming to me as we— I'm in a deployment line, we talk responsibilities. You know, of senior enlisted. When we start talking, first we support Afghanistan and then we start getting ready for Iraq, you know, I'm in the deployment lines, you know, you know, sending the troops off, you know, we love you. And they're asking me, Chief, why are we going to Iraq? Or why are we going to this stand or this stand? There were so many something stands, you know, I'd never heard of before, you know what. And I had an answer for them, Coach BZ. And so, you know, as an officer, as you know, senior officer, which we should see more of now, if they don't believe in the policy or whatever, you know, we don't act, do we? Can't discuss. You either resign or you retire. There was a policy. I had no answer for them, you know, and I was feeling sick to my stomach. So I retired not knowing if I'll ever know was it truly a lie or why we were going to, um, Afghanistan. I mean, now, uh, uh, Coach BC, I believe in divine intervention. I believe in a God. Never knowing that would I ever know you know, because all the contacts I had made throughout my career working at the most senior levels and everything, I was out there when I resigned without a job for a while, you know, and said, okay, it's time to look for a job. And there were people that believed in me said, hey, hey, we can't have you looking for no job, we got a job for you. So unbelievably, I got pulled back into the Pentagon. But the divine intervention, BZ, is that I got pulled into a special task force for the number 3 guy in the Pentagon. And I was part of what we call a declassification team because of the controversy of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. At the time, they were saying we must declassify as many documents as we can to get it out to the public. But what I come to find out, that number 3 guy in the Pentagon, as you heard him say, cherry-picking intel, they were cherry-picking what they were going to declassify so they could tell more lies to the American public in an unclassified level., and I saw they were lying. I said, that is not good for the American public and those troops. Deadly betrayal. The 4,500 military men and women that lost their lives on a WMD lie. So I had threat— I told Myers and a number of former, former boss of mine that if we ever go to war when I retired, you know, uh, we better take care of them because I told you before, I saw the results of the Vietnam War. People coming back to the States. We didn't know anything about PTSD then at the time. And so I got a call one day— I know, email— from a former boss of mine. There had been a big 2007 Washington Post story about the bad treatment of our war wounded at Walter Reed Army Medical Center at the time they called it. And I, man, and when I saw— somebody called me and said, Chief, we know you care about people, look what's happening at Walter Reed. Wow. We were bringing wounded soldiers and airmen and sailors, even Coast Guard and Marines, and putting them in molded rooms, wounded warriors. And I went up in the ceiling going crazy, you know. I said, well, I'm going big for my britches. I know the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I'm going there marching. They said, oh, relax, Chief, they're going to take care of it. So I get a call and say, hey, we want you to go over and take care of our war wounded. You know, at Walter Reed. And I did as a contractor to take care of our war wounded. But the thing, and I think you'll probably allude to this, in my book I talk about before I got over there, I saw a group. We said what we call— I forgot what the name of it, but once a month we would have war wounded from Walter Reed and Bethesda at the time, Naval Hospital for you, that's Naval Hospital at the time. Now they combined Walter Reed and Bethesda, called it Walter Reed National Military Medical Center. At Bethesda because the Army and the Navy were fighting over the name of it. Yes, I had to go to what we call Joint Medicine. But anything— anyway, but, uh, with that said, uh, I would see— they once about— we were bringing the war wounded from Bethesda and Walter Reed over to the Pentagon to meet the senior leadership, and it broke my heart. I saw, you know, you know, people with burnt faces from IEDs, you know, a young man that was 19— speaking of a 19-year-old that we just lost as well in our Redmore area. That had lost both legs. And here I thought, I'm in a room full of history of how these wars started, declassified, and these troops don't know why. Yes, they were wounded. They don't know why their comrades were killed. It broke my heart that we sent them on a mission on a lie. And I said, you know, man, I may get in trouble, some people may get mad at me, but I'm in a room full of history that know the truth of why we went to war. I must let our troops know by way of writing a book. As this lying number 3 guy in the Pentagon was writing a book to justify the war based on lies, I'm gonna do it for the troops. So when I first got into this crusade, it was for the troops. And you'll notice in the book, I did it for a reason. Being a former enlisted guy, we could use that extension span. I didn't write a 300-page book. I said— I told the publisher I want to be 200 pages or less., if you will. And I'm gonna do it in plain language so people understand, because the troops were asking, telling me, I don't understand how I got in this war. I don't— that's above my pay grade. And so that's why I wrote the book, you know, because I wanted them to know how foreign policy work and how politics play into us, you know, going to war. And you ready for this, Coach BZ? On the backs of our military men and women. They're the ones that suffer with death, with injuries for life and their families. And that's why I wrote the book.

Well, that is really— I have a copy of the book here. I just wanted to read the dedication right here at the beginning. Man, it is really touching. While I am doing this, because I think there may be a little bit of parallel with what's happening now with the war, of Iran, which you alluded to, right? Because you are describing seeing wounded service members, and right now from the Iran War they say more than 400, actually the number might be much more than that, the 400 that we know about, who have been wounded but they don't really fully understand why they had gone to war. How did that experience affect you personally?

Listen, not only those that are fighting the wars and their families should know why we're sending them to war. But the American public and the world need to know. And as I stated, you're probably alluding to— I put something in the chapter. Unfortunately, our military men and women are used as pawns in these foreign policy schemes.

Yes.

And that breaks my heart as a senior leader of the enlisted. You know, 80% of the forces, even during my time— sure, it's like that right now, you look at the percent— 80% of the forces enlisted. It's the majority of enlisted. When you hear about the wounds and the killings, I think we had in this particular case, the latest, you had one junior officer and the rest were enlisted. You don't hear about a lot of senior officers and general officers get killed. That's news if you get one of them killed. So it's a majority of our folks that are getting killed. And shame on me if I don't speak out and share the information, educate people and their families. Of how we get into these wars. And you were alluding to something— it ties into what's going on with Iran right now. We really don't know the reasons why they keep saying it's about, you know, nuclear weapons. Well, Iran does not have nuclear weapons, okay? We had to learn the hard way that Saddam did not have weapons of mass destruction. And so the thing that drives me, uh, Coach BZ, is that we're using our military men and women as pawns. They are human beings. See how you would touch when you talk about the 19-year-old that was killed? Well, think about this, you know, responsibility we have to families. That is somebody's daughter. Yeah, that is somebody's sister.

And my, my own daughter is only 18 years old.

Think about that.

It's crazy.

And when I look at my life and, and this, and this crusade I'm on, I look at as a leader the thing that drove me also when I talk about the young people when I was a senior leader in the military, and I went and talked to the E-1s and E-4s first. Somebody's son or daughter, mother or father, in some cases sister or brother, a husband or wife. I owe that to them. We owe that as senior leaders, junior leaders, to take care of the men and women. And so now my fate is to be outspoken to our members of Congress, if you will. I want to tell you another story, and I know, like I told you, I said you probably regret having me on because we're probably going past time. When you talk about courage and so forth, you know, when I was at Walter Reed, I was in charge for the Air Force, all the wounded warriors. I went on to be the contract program manager for the entire DOD program.

Wow.

Possibly could not have made it that far because I could have been fired down at the Air Force level. When a member of Congress come over to Walter Reed to visit a wounded warrior They used to come out and say before they left and say thank you for their, their service. When they would walk out that room, Coach BZ, I would tell them, Congressman such and such, or Congresswoman such and such, do not thank them for their service. Maybe you can thank me for my service, but you thank them for their sacrifice. Yeah, because that young man or woman will never walk again. That young man will never get that arm back again. Or if they had died and they're consoling the wife— or the parents, they would never have their son or daughter back again, you know. Well, that's why I feel so strongly about this. And I gotta tell you, I never got fired. You know, some member of Congress could have had those big bridges and went back into the Air Force leadership and say, hey, hey, hey, this guy, you know, is challenging me. And what I would tell them, I will say, if we ever get ready to go to war again, you better make sure you think about what you just saw here. You better make sure you know the facts. Now, why do I tell you this? In that book, Deadly Betrayal, I warned, can it happen again? The first thing I say in that book, can it happen in Iran? Remember I said I wrote this book 10 years ago, got it published 2024. Look where we are now. Look at our Congress now, and we're allowing it to happen again. Going back to original question, no strategy. We don't know why other than we say, hey, it's weapons of mass destruction. Well, Now it's not about weapons of mass destruction, it's open up because we didn't have no strategy, we didn't have leadership thinking. Now we're trying to open up what we call something called the Strait of Hormuz so it doesn't take down our economy and the world economy. And so leaders, you have to lead with integrity and in honesty. Another question I ask, before you're ready to make a decision or do something, you got to ask yourself the question, leaders. Wow. Will lives be lost? How much treasure will be lost? Is it worth it? And do we have a strategy? You know, I look over your shoulder, I see, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, General Colin Powell. I think I have this book right behind me too. Well, you know, you own it, you break it, you get it, get out. You have a strategy so that you don't get bogged down as we did in Iraq. And, you know, someone said in Iraq it was the most foreign policy blunder ever. Where now we see that may not be the case, it may be Iran. And so the last thing I'll leave you with, when we make these decisions, Coach BZ, if we don't have the courage to speak out, unfortunately we are complicit.

Yes.

We are.

I think, man, your book is really prophetic because on page 22 is where you say the Bush administration viewed Afghanistan as a brief excursion, a preamble for the sham war on terror used to legitimize invading Iraq. And later Syria, which did happen, and Iran, which is happening now. This was all according to Donald Rumsfeld's plan, part of what I call his Middle East Doctrine. So that is just amazing. Now, the other thing that really touched me in your book really was right before the foreword, right, you actually say, I guess it's the dedication, and just like you talked about, you say this book is dedicated to the men and women of our armed forces. Who fight the unjust wars perpetrated by our politicians. Thank you for your sacrifice. May God bless us and forgive our government. That is really, really powerful. Uh, what, what personal risk did you consider before publishing a book like that?

Uh, I figured I would lose former friends. You know how to say former friend? I figured I would lose, uh, leaders. That, uh, who I had mentored and who had mentored me, because they didn't have the guts to speak out. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I thought maybe I would be delegitimatized because of the fact, hey, I'm speaking something nobody ever spoke before. You know, you never heard in the past about Israel leading us in some of these wars. Nobody would talk about it. And, uh, I felt I had to talk about it because that was the reason why we went to Iraq. And as you stated in the book Iraq and then Syria and then now Iran. You know, people say, you know, I predicted that. No, I didn't predict it. I saw the playbook. I saw the Rumsfeld doctrine that's still being executed with Iran being the, the final phase. And so did I lose some friends? Yes. But when we talk about leadership, again, I want to share something with you. One friend I didn't lose was General Richard Myers, who was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who was the chairman. And I told him, now being a part of leadership, you got to be able to have honesty and integrity. I went to him and told him I was going to write this book. Why? Because in some ways he's complicit because he was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the Hydra War, the most senior military officer in our military. And so I owed that to him that I was going to write a book of my disagreement with the war. And, um, at first he was a little caught— we had breakfast, he was caught off guard. I said, hey, you want to write a blurb in it? He said, nope, nope, nope. But then later he called me and say, hey, how's the book coming along? Do you want me to write a blurb? Can you imagine? Now what he wrote in that blurb— but he's being a leader. He understood me and he told me that. He said, Chief, I understand how you operate. I've been around you for almost 30 years. I'm not surprised you're going to write this book. And what he said, he said, you know, wink wink, I've known Dennis for many of years and I've always, you know what I'm saying, He said, though I don't agree with all— I didn't expect him to agree with me because we disagreed on the war. Yeah, I didn't want us to go, and I knew it was a lie and we should have never went. But it shows his leadership. And you ready for this? Caring leader that I'm going to put myself out there, but at the same time he's going to say, I don't fully agree with, but I support that man.

Yes, actually it was on chapter 8 that you wrote to, right, General Richard Myers, a man of conviction. That is so wonderful to see in our senior leader. Now, for a lot of people listening right now, many times I think leaders, we tend to struggle, right, with balancing loyalty and honesty. No, uh, because, uh, I guess the question for you is, how do you distinguish loyalty to leaders from loyalty to the Constitution and the American people? No, as you and I, all service members, we all take an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, not to a party, not to a leader,, but to the Constitution. How do you balance that?

I'm gonna say something heavy to you, and it's gonna probably shock you and, and most people. Don't think about it when I say it. I am not loyal to no leader or commander. I am loyal to the troops that have to carry out the orders of those commanders and leaders. I'm loyal to them by giving them candid advice and speaking truth. And I would tell people, and I had to teach this to what we call some first sergeants, loyalty is not defending wrong and unethical behavior. You know, as many people I saw first sergeant, I've seen general officers, that's what's happening right now in Iran, if you will, and even Iraq War, being loyal to the commander-in-chief, being loyal to their commanders. You're not loyal. We use this word loyalty too much. My loyalty is to my country that I live in, to make it a better place for my children and your children. When you talk about the Constitution, let's just break it down to plain language. Our country, if you will, you know, it's real. You know, the Constitution is not just a piece of paper, but our country. I'm loyal to our country, my family. I'm loyal to the troops I have to lead because they're putting their life in my hands. Remember I talked about being a commander, you carry a lot of responsibilities. And so the most important thing I will tell you for anybody, if a commander or anybody, supervisor or boss or whatever of an organization, I expect loyalty from them, that's not an organization you want to be part of. Okay, so we use that loyalty word too strongly. And so, and like I say, because sometimes it comes to where I was being loyal to my command, I was being loyal to my boss, as you watch them doing something wrong. Unethical, unjust. And that's going back to what I alluded to earlier. That's how things fester up, where the chain command do not do anything, and then the people lose trust in their chain of command. And I will go back again, as I told that commander, if you ever have anything, a complaint against me, investigate. I don't want you to have loyalty to me. The commander that I said cried on my shoulder about the the commander he had out in the field. He was being loyal to him. He was defending wrong. You follow what I'm saying?

Yeah.

The next loyalty, the weather forecaster cried on my shoulder. His senior enlisted guy was running around abusing women, if you will, having extramarital affairs, if you will. People were coming to that commander and telling him that. The commander wouldn't act on it because he had loyalty. Loyalty, what people don't get, is up and down the chain of command. There's sometimes bosses, commanders, how loyal to their subordinates, you follow me? And so he just act on it. And when it came through an investigation that the troops and everybody were telling the truth, lost trust in the command, it broke his heart. He told me, Chief, I believed him, I trusted him, I had loyalty, I was loyal to him. Yes, you can't be. You got to keep your eyes open. So we use that word loyal too much.

Yes, I think there are really so many themes in your book, but one is really about leadership, accountability, and moral courage. Is accountability compatible with patriotism?

Say that one more time.

Is being accountable compatible with patriotism, being a patriot?

Absolutely, I would say. Yeah, you have to be. Listen, A patriot is somebody that wants to do good, you know, for their country or their family. Being a patriot, if you will. And you have to have accountability. When you— when we hear all these people— you asked me about when I was going to write my book, you know, was I worried about anything. I was considering myself being a patriot. I was doing it. A patriot— a non-patriot, a person not accountable— that's how we got into the Iraq War. Nobody, as of yet, 4,500 military men and women died, hundreds of thousands wounded for life, and nobody was held accountable. And you expect us to call them a patriot? Look at what's going on now. The service people that have died now on a war that was voted over in a day, if you will, based on a lie, in a week based on a lie. Months later, oh, it'll be over tomorrow. No accountability. Do you expect— you think that's patriotism? It works hand in hand. You got to have accountability to be a patriot. Accountability. I'm willing to accept because I know I'm standing on integrity when I'm speaking out. So I'm willing to, uh, accept anything that comes my way. Going back to original questions you asked, But I'm speaking on integrity. I'm speaking on— you ready for this— patriotism. And I'm speaking on loyalty to the troops who fight these wars, being used as pawns in foreign policy blunders.

Yeah. And again, the book is Deadly Betrayal. I think everybody needs to read that book. It's definitely going to challenge your thinking. I know we are out of time, but if I can ask just two more questions, this is—

please.

So thank you, sir. So important, especially based on what we are going through right now. I guess another question I would have for you, Chief, is looking at today's strategic environment, what enduring leadership lesson from the Iraq War remains relevant regardless of political administration, especially in light of what's happening in Iran right now? Leadership lesson from our war in Iraq?

It goes back to something we talked about earlier. Integrity, being ethical, being moral. When you look at the lessons learned, unfortunately, and sadly, we didn't learn from the Iraq War. You know, I have this saying I use now, Coach BZ. Some of you've heard it before. Fool us once, shame on them. President Bush said that going into Iraq. Fool us twice, shame on us. Yes, history is repeating itself. And in that book, Deadly Betrayal, I alluded to earlier, I asked the question, can it happen again? And unfortunately it's happening again.

Hmm.

And sadly, no accountability again. And we will continue to lose men and women fighting those wars, unjust wars.

Yes.

And used as pawns, them and their families. And how sad and how shameful. And as you mentioned in the book, Forgive us for our sins for allowing it to happen.

Wow, because another important question, and it mirrors what one of the live audiences is thinking. Colin says, I have seen situations where leaders inherit tools, processes, or systems that include practices or templates designed to produce unethical or harmful outcomes when those practices could negatively affect other people's well-being. "what is the most effective way for a leader to refuse participation while minimizing potential professional consequences?" I think this question is very similar to the one I was going to ask you next, and I know we need to end this podcast soon, but one of the questions I had for you was about the junior officer who might be on active duty right now, right? And How should they balance executing the mission and kind of ethical leadership and moral courage? How do you see that?

Uh, Coach Beezy, you talked about courage, and I got to tell you, I mean, being a leader and doing the right thing, it takes a lot of courage. I mean, Listen, let me tell you something. It took a lot of courage for me to retire, okay? For the reason I was retired, it took a lot. In some ways I felt, am I leaving the troops behind? At the same time, I got to put myself in a position where I'm allowed to talk outside of that service, you follow? And so I had the courage, but at the same time, when you see things As I stated earlier, I'm gonna give you two more examples, two stories. I offered to quit two command chief jobs because I would not sell the policies of command. You know, my job, not only I represent the Corps, but you sell the policies of the commanders. And I told a commander something he was going to do that was impacting the enlisted folks that was put together by his officer corps in the groups. And I said, I can't sell that. I said I will lose all integrity with the troops when I know this is not right.

Yeah.

So I was willing to lose that job and have to move my family, you know, but I could look myself in the mirror and say— there was another big DOD policy. I refused to go out and say certain things they want me to say. I said, I may say I can't imagine it's happening, but I'm not going to go out there and say that because I'm not question that area, and I, I'm not the person to say— I don't know if it's true or not.

Hmm.

So not everybody can do it.

Yes.

You know, and, and I gotta tell you now, I've been blessed and lucky. You know, I've had commanders— like I said, when I talk about Myers, you know, there may be many people that disagree with him on the war and being the chairman. I disagree with them.

Okay.

But he allowed me to speak my mind. So in some ways, I was lucky too. Because I can think of a number of jobs I could have been fired for. And I met the Wounded Warrior Program. I went on to be the contract program manager for the entire— for all the service Wounded Warrior Program in the Pentagon. But I started at the Air Force taking care of troops at the old Walter Reed in Bethesda. I could have been fired from that job right there. Yes, I didn't speak true. So I'm speaking true. If I'm lying, it's different there, you know. Wow. And so, so courage And speaking out against those things that are being unethical, immoral, unjust, it takes a lot of courage. And you do take a chance.

And but because, yeah, you only live by your core value, Chief. No, you talked just at the beginning of the podcast, we talked about caring, integrity, and courage. But where, where do you think that courage comes from? Because you're really putting everything on the line.

Because like I said, we all are built different. You know, and I, well, I tell you, I was talking to a former colleague yesterday and we were talking about stuff. I have a guilt conscience, you know, I have a guilt conscience that would eat me alive more so than anything else. If I allow something to happen, as I stated right now, you know, I'm complicit. If I know that the war in Iraq was a lie, why it was, if I go out there and support the Iran war and all that, and knowing is, is built on lies and deception, I'm complicit. If I could save some life— look, look, uh, Coach BZ, we're talking about lives here. Yes, you know what I'm saying? We're talking about lives here. We're talking about families that could lose loved ones.

We're—

look at that. We're talking about the injuries. They're gone. That 19-year-old you mentioned earlier, no strategy, no true plan, and we get all kind of different reasons of why we're in the war. Remember what I said earlier? You take into account, will lives be lost? Will people be hurt?

Yeah.

Will we lose a lot of treasure? Are we being ethical? Are we being moral? And is it just? And if I didn't take all those things in consideration— we're built different. I just happen to be built where I have a guilt conscience, and that would eat me alive.

Yes.

And so that's— I think everybody But I must tell you, if you know something to be true and you don't say something, you're complicit.

Wow.

We really talk about some heavy stuff here on the podcast from time to time. I think that's what leadership calls for. I do want to end on a positive note. I've already taken too much of your time. But let's talk about the Eisenhower Media Network. I know you care a lot about that. I think you guys do a lot of great, great work. What is their mission? And what mission do they serve? You used to be the director, you are now a—

Yes, I was the director. And we're a group of national security, former national security state experts, if you will. Okay, I'll just call myself an expert. But we've done that and got the t-shirt. We have former FBI folks, CIA folks, Department of Defense folks, Secretary of State folks, We all come together where we promote peace and diplomacy instead of war. You know, we've seen war, we've seen our wars based on deception and lies. And, uh, I see a good friend there, Larry Wilkerson, and he's the one that got me into the Eisenhower Media Network. And as you know, he wrote my foreword. And you talk about— listen, I know we have to go, but how I met Larry, we've been the closest friends. In fact, it made me cry a little bit. He said I was his best friend, you know, one of his best friends. But I met him by challenging him. He was the first Bush administration— he was the chief of staff to Colin Powell. He was the first Bush administration to come out and say, hey, we blew this, this war was based on lies. I reached out to him not knowing— he was at William Mary University and, uh, and, uh, and George Washington University. I reached out to him, emailed and introduced who I was, and I said, I appreciate you coming out and telling the truth, but I want to invite you over to Walter Reed to see the result of that war. And I introduced him to the most severely wounded folks you ever— a guy that lost both legs and an arm. And, uh, we became friends. I told him he had a platform at the time, and he told me, Dennis, you're a platform. And Larry Wolf is the one that helped me get my platform to be able to do everything I can to educate, uh, the American public about the blunders of our foreign policy. And so that's what does. We've come together as former national security folks to, uh, talk about, you know, peace and diplomacy instead of war.

Yes. And actually, uh, Colonel Larry, uh, Wilkerson, also retired, I think, from the, uh, U.S. Army, which is, which is pretty impressive. Now there is someone— let me see if I can get there— in Vietnam, uh, they say Dennis Fritz is one of the most honest and best leaders I have ever had. I had the honor to work with. That's Martin Del Rio.

Oh my gosh, I know, but what a great leader. Yeah.

All right, we do, we, we do need to, to end the show. I've already taken too, too much of your time. Thank you so much for being with us. Now, if I can just take a couple more minutes just to end really, uh, quickly, I wanted to ask you, uh, to answer this question really, really quickly, right? Like a lightning round, uh, What is one of the most influential leaders you've ever served with?

Well, believe it or not, I've mentioned his name a couple of times because he put on his bridges like all of us, and that was, uh, you know, General Myers, because of the fact he believed in collaborative leadership. You know, I like— I had my issues with him on certain things, but collaborative leadership, and he's part of the reason I'm here today.

I, I don't think he has written a memoir yet. As, as he—

he, you know, that's what I say, he's a soldier soldier, you know. I mean, he won't write anything controversial. He did write one one, but it was more diplomatic, if you will.

Okay, so I need, I need to find that book and, uh, read it. And what is the best leadership book you've ever read?

Well, I don't know if I would call it a, a, a leadership book, but if I remember, it was Stephen Covey, The, The, The Seven Great Habits or something like that.

Oh yes, yes.

And that's what helped me out in my leadership skills. And if something— I mean I, I— hit me early on.

I love it.

Go ahead, I know you got to keep rounds.

Now, as, uh, you recommended this book, War Is a Racket. Why should we read that one?

I tell you what, BZ, you're so good. Thanks for saying that. War Is a Racket, it talks about— and when I use on the backs of our military men and women, that book, and he talked about that in 1939. Unfortunately, all the wars that we've been in have been about, uh, peerism, and resources. Unfortunately, taking the resources of others. And, and General Smedley Butler, a, uh, two-star general at the time, wrote and said all the wars that he led was about taking resources from other countries and imperialism. And unfortunately, our capitalist society, you know, and, uh, so everybody should read that book, especially in the military. War is a racket. It's not about, unfortunately, the defense of our country and all that. It's about war is a racket, resources.

Yeah, I know, we do have a great defense industrial complex here. We make a lot of money when we go to war. That might be a motivation too. But what is one of the biggest lessons you've ever learned in life, in leadership, just in general?

It was a lesson that I learned, you know, from a former boss of mine. I was good at, because of the fact my open door policy,— of, uh, people coming to talk to me. And I had this other saying I want to leave you with. You may give me an opportunity to say the 3 sayings I have, but I'll mention one right now. Uh, I want— you know, I had people that would come to me all the time with issues and problems, and my lesson learned was I always take those issues and problems to the commander with no solutions. So if you got a problem and some issues, you taking it to your bosses, the leadership, have solutions to help them solve those problems. And that was a lesson learned for me. I thought I was somebody, I'm bringing all these issues, I'm bringing all these problems to the commander, but with no solutions. So always have a solution.

Absolutely. When I was a commanding officer, I always loved the people who came to me with at least 2 or 3 courses of action and allowing me to make a decision. But yes, uh, so, so powerful. So as we end, I want to end on, I believe, 3 core values that really define you. One of them is caring. Can you define caring for us?

Well, I call it caring leadership, and that is meaning— and you ready for this? We talk about loyal being too strong, whatever, but that's being loyal to your subordinates, caring about them both on and off the job, caring about their families, more importantly, uh, Coach BZ, wanting them to be successful before me. My rewards and my promotions were based on people, people caring for me because I care for them. Two quick stories, I know you got to go, but two quick stories. When I got ready to retire, when I made that decision to retire, and I told Myers why I was doing it because I said I didn't support this war and I felt bad, remember, to my church, I have reacted. His aide came to me during my retirement ceremony, which Myers, even though he knew why he still presided over my retirement ceremony. Now, with that said, his aide came to me and said, Chief, don't worry, the general understands. He knows you, you're doing it out of integrity.

Now, when you talk about caring, caring, you've actually mentioned the last two I was gonna mention. One is integrity, one is courage. So go ahead and define those.

Yeah, when we talk about caring, one quick story. When I got ready to retire in a nearby, a young E-5 came to me and said, Chief, do you want me to do a letter of recommendation for you? I started laughing. I said, huh? He said, Chief, no, I'm serious. I said— he said, Chief, you don't understand. Everybody always asks for the bosses, the commanders, and all that for a letter of recommendation. He said, I want to do one for this other because the fact you are our leader. What better recommendation here from people that served? Man, that brought tears to my eyes, BZ. Still does. Yes. And then the other thing I'll leave with When I retired, my first job out was an E7, E9, I mean E8 who served under me, who became a vice president of a company. He reached out to me and said, Chief, I don't want you looking for a job. I already talked to my president. I got you. Caring leadership. You care for the people, they're going to care for you and take care of you. And it was young subordinates that got me started in my civilian life.

That's just amazing. Okay, as we come to an end, what can we do to add value back to you, Chase?

Well, what kind of— what do you mean, add value back to me?

How can, how can the audience add value back to you? I believe they should follow you on LinkedIn and purchase a copy of your book. Anything else?

Because I'm doing it as a service, is that— get that book, okay? You can get it from Our Books. That's O-R-R publishing, or directly from them, or you can go like a lot of people go to Amazon. It will help educate you on where we are today, how we got there from the Iraq War to where we are now. And then, and then go to the Eisenhower Media Network where you can see a lot of my writings and a lot of others like me, former senior military leaders and, uh, and also former officials in the CIA, and, and learn. And then most importantly, BZ, I do this to share information. And please share the information that I give you to others. As I used to tell folks, I used to get so frustrated about people that know certain things. You don't know what you don't know. And I had to remember that. And so that's why I do this, to share my knowledge and information in the hopes that we, you, will share it with others.

Well, thank you. Thanks so much. We are coming to the end of the show. Is there a question I should have asked you, Chief? I didn't get a chance to ask. Anything else you wanted to know?

No, no, you covered it all. I tell you what, I see why your legacy precedes you, your reputation precedes you, because you asked some good questions. My apology to you and your audience is that I kept you over.

No, no, no, no, no, uh, I am really, really grateful that, that you, uh, you did. And, uh, the last thing I'm gonna ask you is, uh, if you had one and only one day to live, what would you have liked your final contribution to be? What do you hope your legacy to be?

Whether it be my kids, and I don't have any grandkids yet, but any other grandkids or any people, um, that know when I leave this world is that I was truly, uh, a caring leader, that I cared about mankind. Uh, and the most important thing I wish and I hope for— I don't live my life big bridges— humility. Humility. Because I feel so blessed and lucky. I'm no better than anybody else. I've just been blessed. I said believe in divine intervention. I was put in certain positions, never what I would imagine, you know, flying on Air Force One or, or living in a book of history of the Iraq War, two of the most— two of the most controversial wars, Afghanistan War, Iraq War. And now I never— divine intervention. And so humility, there's nothing that I did. I was just put in certain places, in certain positions, and then I had the courage, if you will, if I give myself any credit, to share my knowledge and to try to motivate others to do well.

Thank you so much for sharing that with us, Chief. If you could give advice to the 17-year-old version of yourself, I guess right before you joined the Air Force, what would you say to that little teenager, Dennis Fritz, at 17 years old, knowing what you know now and this extraordinary career you've had? In the U.S. Air Force, the most powerful Air Force in the world.

You don't know where life will lead you, so just follow the divine interventions that happen in your life and do the best that you can.

So powerful. Okay, so as we end, our last question, uh, something that you are feeling optimistic about these days.

I tell colleagues and I tell friends and I talk about we, our foreign policy. And, and us truly, the United States of America, truly being a positive leader of the world. Yes. This is the most optimistic I've ever been in my life where people's eyes are being opened that we have a lot of work to do to truly make America the most humane and caring country, you know, on earth. And more people's eyes are being opened that, hey, we got a lot of work to do. We may not be who we portray ourselves to be. And that's a good thing, you know, because of the fact, you know, some people like to say the forefathers, but the original, uh, writers of the Constitution, everything, you know, we, we're, we're, we're, we're still maturing, if you will. And this is the most optimistic time I've ever been.

Yeah, because this is, uh, America 250, right? We are 250 years old. So I've spent a lot of time thinking about our history, our forefathers, from the independence the Constitution and on, on now. And, uh, it's true that, uh, we really had a lot of ideals then, right? Uh, we— our aspiring values are excellent, never been done on Earth before. All men are created equal— nobody could have thought about that, especially during that, that, that time. It totally revolutionized history. But the reality is, while they said that, they still had about a fifth of our population enslaved. So there was a big dissonance between what they believe or what they aspired to.

We were imperfect, we're still imperfect, we're growing. And like this most optimistic— and I take something you started about early about freedom, freedom of speech, for me to come on to you and speak my mind.

Yes, that is so, so powerful. And that's what President Abraham Lincoln talked about at the Gettysburg Address, right? The unfinished work. And it's closing that gap and walking towards that more perfect union. And yeah, you You are right. I am so energized and positive that this generation is going to help us do it. So as we end then, very last question for you. I know you have to go. Just one word or one thought about your time on this podcast today. How would you describe it?

Oh my goodness. It's been an honor and a pleasure. I really mean it. Thank you so much for, like I said, the humility in me. I was surprised that you reached out to me you know, and asked me to be on the show. I really, I really was. And anytime I get some type of invite, I'm surprised. So I am so glad I came on. I thank you for having me. Yeah, you talk about me energizing you. You truly energized me. You brought out that extrovert in me, you know, I really like it. You asked some great questions. And so what a great interviewer and moderator you are. And I thank you for having me on.

Well, ladies and gentlemen, that was Chief Master Sergeant, uh, US Air Force retired, Dennis Fritz. Thank you so much for your time, sir, and for giving us even an extra 30 minutes. I've never interviewed somebody this long, but thank you so much for your time, sir. We are so, so grateful. Thank you. All right, so I want everybody to go ahead and get a copy of the book, our book book.com, I think, is the site, or Amazon, but really everywhere books are available. Deadly Betrayal: The Truth About Why the United States Invaded Iraq. And this is a book I believe that's also prophetic because he talked about CIA and even Iran, and that was what, 10 years ago. And also, uh, follow the chief on LinkedIn. That's, uh, linkedin.com/dennisfritz. And, uh, also, uh, I send our media network .org. All right, uh, and for those who are following my Black History Year, I had a couple of posts today. There was one that kind of touched me. It was a woman, she didn't make much money, I think she was a washer, a Black woman in Mississippi of all places, but when she retired she gave $150,000 to HBCU for the education of people she didn't even, even, even now. That's just amazing to me. Somebody who's pretty much making pennies all of her life but able to save that much money, and instead of using it at her retirement, she just gave it away. And that's really the spirit of America, just the generosity, right? Planting seeds that's going to grow trees. We are not going to profit from their sheds, the next generation will. And that's, that's really, I believe, what life is calling us to. To be courageous and to do things not just for ourselves, our own selfish ambition, but really for the generation to come. And I believe Command Chief Master Sergeant Dennis Fritz, I really want to thank him for joining us today and taking extra time, over 30 minutes, to talk to us. And more importantly, just, you know, thank you for a lifetime of service to our nation, right? Whether listeners agree or disagree with every conclusion in the book, I hope that everyone can appreciate the importance of leaders who are willing to ask difficult questions, wrestle with history honestly, and remain committed to the people they serve alongside. And for those who've been following me, especially this year on America 250, I also ask a lot of tough questions about our history. Yes, America is the greatest country. Yes, yes, all of that, but we also did some things wrong, like slavery, absolutely unacceptable, and we do have to reckon with that and make sure it never ever happens. Again, right? But one lesson that stood out to me for what our conversation today we've achieved is that leadership really is never simply about authority, right? It's about stewardship. Stewardship of trust, stewardship of truth, stewardship of lives entrusted to our care. Those responsibilities, they don't end when we retire from the military. I've been in the Navy for 21 years now. I believe my days are numbered. I will be retiring sometimes this year or early next year, but even when I retire, right, when we leave our corner office, we still need to leave our institution, I believe, in a better way than we found them. So in many ways, I think they become even more important because our experience can help prepare the next generation to lead with greater wisdom and greater humility. The chief told you one of his greatest joys was to have people working for him who at times even outrank him and even do better and greater things than he did. And I think that's really what leadership and stewardship is all about. I have mentees myself right now. One of them was just elected to become a commander, so now he's exactly the same rank as I am, and that is beautiful to see. And maybe he's gonna end up being a captain or even an admiral, and that is what we should see. The next generation should do so much better than we did, because I do stand on the shoulders of giants, right? There was a time in this country where a Black man could not be a naval officer, absolutely forbidden by law. And because of the Golden 13, you can see their book right up there on my shelf next to Michelle Obama and General Powell. Because of them, I am a senior officer in the US Navy today. So I owe a lot to those who came before me. I stand on their shoulder, and I hope when I am gone, I would have impacted my service and our nation for future people to do even better than I did. So I'm going to end it there. Thank you so much for watching. The show today, but I am really, really, really grateful to the Chief and for exhibiting integrity, for exhibiting courage, great courage, and also caring, caring leadership. To everybody watching or listening from around the world, thank you for investing your time in becoming a better leader. I think there is nothing more important than leadership in the 21st century, especially that we are living now in the age of artificial intelligence. There is nothing more real than leadership, in my opinion. So until next time, keep learning, keep serving, keep leading with courage, with humility, and with Integrity. I am Coach Bizzy, and as always, mission first, but people, people always. God bless you. God bless our service members and their families, and may God continue to bless the United States of America. Bye for now, and thank you. Oh, freedom.

Oh, freedom. Freedom, oh, freedom over me. And before I be a slave, I'll be buried in my grave and go home to my Lord. And be free. Oh, freedom.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.