S5:E159🎙️ Live with Todd Marshall Hearnsberger

Hi, I'm John Maxwell. When the top companies in the world are looking for trainers, speakers, and coaches, there's one name that stands above the rest, and that's Maxwell Leadership. Our certified team members have gotten proven results for companies all over the globe, and our reputation, I'm proud to say, is second to none. Some of our members have risen to the top of their profession, including the one you're going to meet today. I proudly introduce you to my friend Bob Fabien Zinga.

Welcome to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ, where we help you lead with purpose and succeed with impact. If you're ready to grow into the kind of leader others want to follow, this podcast is for you. If you're determined to elevate your success and leave a lasting legacy, this podcast is for you. As my mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell, reminds us, everything rises and falls on leadership. Our goal is simple, to inspire you, challenge you, and equip you with insights that can transform the trajectory of your leadership journey. Welcome aboard to another episode of the Leadership and Success Podcast with Coach Easy.

Hey everyone, welcome to the Todd Talk Leadership Podcast. I'm Todd Marshall Hernsberger, host of this podcast, and today it's just going to be me talking with you. There are no guests, no notes, just my story. And it's a real story that got me to where I am now and why I'm so passionate about what I do in the world of leadership. So, for those of you who don't know me, you will get to learn a lot of new information about me. And for those of you who do know who I am, you just might learn something new, especially more of who I am at my core, my DNA. So, to know me is to know more about my story. And my story of leading others goes all the way back to whenever I was 19 years old. And as you can tell by looking at my gray hair, I've been around the block a few times leading all kinds of people in ministry, in the corporate settings. I've led small volunteer crews of people to larger paid staff teams. And most of my working career was spent in pastoral ministry wearing just about every pastoral hat you can think of. And when we talk about leading volunteers, We have to lead them differently than we do paid staff. They don't stick around because you pay them or because you are the boss. They stick around because they buy into the mission. And that means you have to lead in a way that earns their trust. So I've learned how to lead others through trial and error, through leaders mentoring and coaching me, through also the world of academia. So, I've learned to lead by example and I've learned to get in the trenches with those that I lead. I've learned all this over the years and my why is pretty straightforward. I want to shine a light on healthy leadership versus unhealthy leadership.

It's what I sometimes call functional All right, we're going to be talking about functional leadership today. Brand new book, I believe it's going to be a bestseller, The Dysfunctional Leader. But before we get to that, as is our tradition here, we are going to start with what we call a moment of gratitude. This is where we take a moment every single time that we meet, and we just want to be grateful. So if you would, for those who follow the show, you know what to do by now. Maybe close your eyes and put yourself in your happy place. Maybe take a deep breath and slow down your nervous system and think about one thing you are grateful for right now. This morning I was talking to a living legend, I believe, B.K. Fulton, and he said he's grateful for two things every single day. One, that he's alive. He's so grateful that he's alive. And he's also grateful for his spouse. It's so beautiful. Being grateful for life and being grateful for family. And maybe I will add to that, I am also grateful just for health, right? Because you can be alive but you can be in a lot of pain. And once you are sick, I can tell you nothing else in life matters. It doesn't matter if you have a lot of money, cars, riches, all of that matters absolutely nothing because you can't enjoy any of it if you are sick. So I am grateful for life, for good health, and for family, family and friends. So let us know in the chat, uh, where you are joining us from, uh, what city, what state, and, uh, also, uh, if you're outside of the US, which country, and, uh, as well what you are grateful for. And if you do have a question for my guest, uh, Coach Todd, go ahead and type it in the comments. We will be answering your question live. So let me see if I can properly introduce our guest, uh, today. So today again, we are going to be talking about, uh, dysfunctional, uh, leadership, right? Uh, thank you for joining me for another inspiring episode. I think it is going to be of the Leadership and Success podcast as I welcome Coach Todd Marshall Ernstberger. He's a leadership consultant, executive coach, author, pastor, entrepreneur, podcast host, and founder and CEO of Lead Well Solutions. And, uh, for more than 30 years now, Todd has been helping leaders organizations thrive by combining servant leadership, operational excellence, and practical business strategy. From leading churches and educational institutions to founding LeadWell Solutions, Todd has dedicated his career to helping organizations build healthier cultures, stronger teams, and more effective leaders. And by the way, he did interview me a couple of weeks ago. The podcast should be coming out soon. You need to check out this great, great podcast, which I show you just a small clip of him introducing himself on his podcast. You can find it everywhere, podcast, available. But back to Todd. So he's really been working on building stronger teams and more effective leaders, right? He's also the author of A Dysfunctional Leader, which we're going to be talking about today, Pathology of Unhealthy Leadership, where he explores why organizations struggle and how leaders can create workplaces where people flourish. So part of what we're going to be learning today is why healthy organizations begin with healthy leaders, But we also going to be talking about why continuous learning and personal growth are essential for every leader. Whether you lead a Fortune 500 company or a nonprofit or a military unit or command, a small business or a volunteer organization, this conversation will equip you with practical strategies to lead with greater purpose, integrity, and impact. So without any further ado, please help me welcome to the Leadership Success Podcast, the one and only Todd Marshall Ernstberger.

Hello, everyone.

Good morning, Todd. How are you doing today?

Good morning. Good morning. I'm doing wonderful. Thank you for having me on the podcast. I'm so excited to join you. As you said earlier, I had you on my podcast, which will be out here soon. And so I'm just excited to be with you. We had a great time together here a few weeks ago.

Thank you. Yes, yes, indeed. And one thing I like to To start, just to break the ice, uh, what are you grateful for today?

Well, of course there's lots of things I'm grateful for, and beside the normal cliché of I'm thankful for the Lord in my life, I'm going to put that aside and just know that will always be a great— for— but you mentioned it earlier, uh, of course beside family as well, I'm, I'm, I'm thankful for my health. And, um, many of you don't know me, uh, I was diagnosed last November with a very, very a major disease. And this coming Wednesday, I'll have a major surgery that will kind of help fight against that disease and take out a tumor. So, but I'm thankful for my health. Uh, the last 5 months I had, my health journey has been great. I have great prognosis, and so I'm just grateful to be alive. I could have been dead several months ago, but I'm thankful to be alive. And so I'm I will always be health conscious from this point forward, for sure.

Wow, that is so inspiring. Thank you so much for sharing that. For everybody else that is listening, because sometimes I think we get our priorities completely all wrong, but just the fact that you are still alive today, that the good Lord saw it fit for you to wake up and smell the coffee, and it is just such a privilege and a blessing because somebody last night went to bed, they didn't wake up today, but here you are. And sometimes it happened very, very suddenly too. No, one, one person into our, uh, nation, significant person Senator, used to be a colonel in the Air Force, Lindsey Graham, uh, not relatively healthy, only in his 60s, but all of a sudden, just like, just like that, he passed away. So really, nobody knows the time or the hour. And tomorrow, like the Bible says, is promised to no one. So you really enjoy today and thank God that you are alive and healthy. And of course, you know, myself and the people who follow this podcast, we We're going to be keeping you in our prayer and our thoughts, and I know you're going to do so well because you do have a purpose. You have so many more people to impact with your work on leadership, and I think it is so, so essential. Now, is there something about you, Todd, that most people may not know? Maybe something unique, a superpower, or something people may not know about you when they first meet you?

I mean, the people who know me know me well. I've always been very transparent, but of course you have followers that are just now seeing me and hearing me for the very first time. For those who don't know me, as the reason I'm on this podcast today is because I am very, very adamant about leadership. And when I say leadership, I'm talking about healthy versus unhealthy leadership. And I'm not referring to physical health like diet and food and exercise and sicknesses. I'm talking about healthy behaviors, healthy habits, healthy, healthy traits. So that is my passion. Actually, it's a calling of mine. I don't consider it just a passion. I believe it's a mandate from the Lord that has allowed me to put me in certain situations throughout the decades of me being an adult to help bring light to this subject matter of healthy versus unhealthy leadership.

That is really powerful. But how old were you when you sensed that calling? It was more than just you, but you had—

well, I mean, I was a teenager when I felt a calling into full-time ministry, but I was a very shy kid introvert growing up. And of course, I would have never thought pastoring would have been in my future. As an introvert, I didn't want to be in the limelight at all. I wanted to be in the back corner. And for some reason, God had a sense of humor in pastoral ministry to where I was forced to be in front of people and lead teams and have one in my hand and prepare messages and speak from platforms. So it started when I was a teenager as far as the drawing, but I started leading teams of people at the age of 19.

So that's amazing.

Decades of leading people.

Do you remember how old you, you were when that started? 14, 15?

I was about 15 to 16 years old when I was really getting serious.

I guess another thing we, we do have in common, because I was about 15 years old when I sensed that, uh, called. And actually, part of the reason why I joined the U.S. Navy, I think, was to learn even more about leadership. But because in my opinion, the military is really a leadership organization. We just happen to have a bunch of hardware and weapons and things. But actually, in a sense, we are a real estate organization too, because we have the best real estate in every location. It's just amazing. But anyway, so you have served as a pastor, executive leader, entrepreneur, professor, consultant, and now founder of Lead Well Solution. Looking back over more than 30 years of leadership, what experiences most shaped the leader you have become today?

Well, I, I've served mostly under leaders my whole life. There have been many, uh, there's been seasons where I was like a senior pastor of the church and I was like the head leader, but majority of my working career in ministry and even the secular, you know, corporate world was serving under other leaders. Uh, that is kind of one of my strengths, is I'm a, I'm a very strong support person of leaders. And if a leader is going this way with a vision, I help him go that direction, or her in that direction. So, um, I have been impacted by many, many great leaders. Matter of fact, majority of the leaders I have served under, whether it's ministry or the corporate world, have been fabulous leaders. Not perfect, uh, but great leaders. But then there's those had a few bad eggs that were not great leaders. Uh, matter of fact, when I was mid-20s, I started full-time ministry for the very first time in a pastoral role, uh, for a leader, and it was not, uh, a good exposure to full-time ministry. That leader was very unhealthy behind the scenes, uh, and it shaped me who I am today as far as my passion on bringing light to the subject matter of unhealthy leadership. And because that was a ministry leadership role that I was exposed to, uh, here's my philosophy, Bob. If there's any group of people on the face of this earth that should exemplify healthy leadership behaviors and traits, it should be the Christian community.

Yes.

But sadly, there are Christian leaders who are not the healthiest of leaders, and that's just part of our sinful nature of being born in, you know, humankind and being born into sin. But I have been exposed to too many unhealthy Christian leaders, and I have again that passion, that calling that says, okay, we need to talk about this some more because Christian leaders should be the one leading the charge even exemplifying to the non-Christian world of what a great leader is.

Yeah, I could not agree more. And talking about healthy leadership, maybe it's gonna help my audience because you talk about healthy organization being built by healthy leaders. I think I completely agree with that. It's kind of like when you are a parent, I think becoming a father changed me. I think I really learned how to become a leader when my kids were born because Your kids will not do anything you say. They will do what you do. Right. It's not like those leaders say, no, do as I say, not as I do. That's not leadership. You have to be your model. You have to walk the walk. So what does a healthy leader actually look like?

Well, there's different, there's different characteristics or qualities that a healthy leader has. And actually, I'm writing my second book now called The Functional Leader. It's the opposite of my book that's already out now called The functional leader. But my book will explain this more. But in this case, a functional, healthy leader has attributes like they have in character, they have high quality in character, they have high quality and integrity. What they do behind the scenes is what they live in front of other people. Yes, there's a proper, effective communication is another quality of a healthy leader. Some leaders are not great communicators. They're unhealthy in how they communicate. There's also things like being transparent and being open and being friendly and being nice and wanting people to want to follow you as a leader.

Yes.

And I've always said this, Bob, I've always said, take the title of a leader off anybody.

Mm-hmm.

If you take them out of a leadership role, will people still want to follow them?

Mm, I love that.

Test of leadership. If you have a leadership title and people following you because they have to, let's take the title away, let's take the position away, and then we're going to find out who's really following you. Because if no one's following you as a leader, you're just out taking a walk.

Yes.

And so you have all these great qualities of a healthy leader to where people want you as a leader. If no one wants to follow you as a leader, those are telltale signs. Hey, success leaves clues, and so does failure. So pay attention to the clues because they'll tell you everything you need to know.

That's really powerful. Actually, you remind me of this book here by Dr. Maxwell, The Five Levels of Leadership. And it says level number 1, the lowest level, is positional leadership. That's where people follow you just because of your title, just because you write the paycheck. And The moment they have an opportunity to work for a real leader, they're gonna leave you because they don't celebrate you, but they tolerate you just because of the positional title you have within the organization. That really doesn't make you a leader. But yeah, that's unfortunately the experience of so many people out there. So let's talk about your book, The Dysfunctional Leader. What inspired you to write this book? Why did this book have to be written?

Well, I touched on this a little bit in the fact that I worked for a few dysfunctional, unhealthy leaders in my past, so I have personal experiences.

Yes.

And I— that inspired me to write this book because I found out that there really isn't a lot of information out there on the subject of identifying unhealthy leadership traits and behaviors and actions. And so that's the reason I'm bringing this more to light, because there's not much out there on the subject. There's a lot of— if I'm—

I—

my leadership books are one of millions, okay? I'm just a little fish in a big pond. And but I do know that there is a reason the Lord had me write The Dysfunctional Leader, to bring light to the subject matter. But that's the reason I wrote this book, because I had a few leaders that were unhealthy, and it impacted me in a way that didn't change my behavior in a negative. I actually thrive to be more positive leader because of negative behaviors. I was not a follower. I was not going to be led by an unhealthy leader and become an unhealthy leader myself. So I went against the grain. I even left organizations, Bob.

Wow.

Left paychecks, good paychecks, because I could not stand working for an unhealthy leader who was not going to be teachable or coachable or try to improve.

Wow.

So that inspired my book. And so I went through life and I said, okay, what are different qualities and characteristics of, of what is an unhealthy leader?

Yeah.

And of course, I list 9 of them on my book. And actually, there's many more than 9, but at least starting with 9, I'm going to be doing 2.0 of my, uh, Dysfunctional Leader book here soon. And adding more traits. But I mean, there's passive leader, there's the narcissistic leader, there's the micromanaging leader, there's the no common sense leader. There's all leadership traits that are right in my book that brings exposure. And leaders are to read that book and say, okay, do I have these qualities? If so, yes, unhealthy. I changed the way that I'm leading. And so that's all it is, is it's an informational educational book to help leaders compare themselves. Okay, am I considered healthy or unhealthy?

Yeah, because I heard that most people leave organization not because of their job, but usually because of their immediate supervisor. It's the leadership that causes them to find other opportunity. And, uh, for those listening too, not only should you get a copy for yourself— I guess available everywhere books are sold— The Dysfunctional Leader. But if you have that one or two leaders in your career that have been not too good, maybe you should send them like a gift, right? So they can read it and maybe—

I don't know how they'll take that, but you can definitely send it to them.

Yeah, but one thing, yeah, because one thing you've said that's really fascinating is even though you've experienced those one or two leaders that were dysfunctional, you didn't allow the dysfunction affect you. For many people, they tend to go the way of the leader. Generally speaking, that is what happened. What do you think that's in you that you knew right is right and I'm gonna do right even if my leader doesn't? What made you keep your integrity? Because when you do that, you kind of start differentiating yourself from everybody else in the organization, right? Everybody's going left and you are going right, and sometimes people are like, hey, what is wrong with you? There is a lot of peer pressure too. So what do you think made you stay the course and keep on the narrow way?

Well, I think a lot of it had to do with DNA. I just believe in being kind to everyone. I don't care what color, shape, size you are. Polka dot, stripe, didn't matter. Just be kind and friendly to everyone. And I attribute all my leadership skills of wanting people to really like me as a leader. Not that I'm trying to be fake in front of them to like me. I want to be genuine and authentic, and I want really people to like me as a leader. Now, I haven't been perfect. I never will be perfect. I've had dysfunctional moments of leadership. I've had nasty, ugly moments that I look back now and I regret. But I think my personality lends towards, uh, let's just, let's just be kind of nice to each other. And even leaders, you don't have to be mean or ugly, but some leaders interpret that if they're going to be a leader that they have to be strong, they have to be authoritative, they've gotta to have everyone toe the line and all those negative, unhealthy traits, I would call those. And instead, just lead authentically.

Yeah.

Lead kind with kindness.

Yeah.

Make— be— help people be accountable. As a leader, you have to have held accountability to people, but you can do that with grace.

Yes, you can do that.

Respect. So I don't know, it's just a DNA in me, and I was not going to be treated— I've learned to say in this this many years ago, and here's the saying: you teach people how to treat you.

Wow.

Says that many years ago, and I thought, okay, I'm going to teach people how to treat me. If I can't teach you how to treat me, then I'm out.

Yes.

Because I can't change somebody who doesn't want to change. And so that's been my philosophy of life, is if I can't teach you, I'm going to go find someone. I'm going to go where I'm celebrated and not tolerated.

That is really powerful because all I'm hearing is you really care about people and you want to add value to them. So it's not really about you, the leader, the boss, but it's about them. And, uh, but where, where, where do you think that came from though? Uh, is that something you saw modeled in your home or church you, you grew up? Where, why do you think you are like that?

Um, of course I grew up in a power— under a powerhouse preacher. I've been I was born in church pretty much for the most part. I went to church my entire life, as even as a baby. My pastor was a powerhouse of a preacher, powerhouse of a pastor. He was a leader to leaders. He was a pastor to other pastors, and he held that charismatic personality. And he was a great leader for me to follow as a child growing up in his ministry. But again, what really changed me is whenever I went off to Bible college and I started working for this pastor for the first time in full-time pastoral role, that his unhealthy behavior sparked something in me that says— I, I saw so many casualties of that ministry, uh, that I said, I'm not going to be one of them. My wife also went and worked for the same ministry. We went to Bible college together. We actually met at Bible college together. We worked very closely with this pastor, and we decided we were not going to be a casualty of that ministry.

Wow.

I tried to have a talk with him at one point, uh, to share my thoughts and feelings and even let him know that my wife and I were moving on and other things, but he wouldn't even give me the day or time to even share my heart. And that just goes to show you, that's, you know, another form of unhealthy behavior is they're not willing to talk with people who want to share and share their heart with them. So But I think that one exposure to this one pastor really changed the course of my life, of not following dysfunctional leadership, but do the opposite, become healthy.

Thank you so much for, for sharing that, because I think one of the traps of leadership is sometimes, I guess, you get too big for your britches when you get a lot of success and people follow you. Everybody tells you all the time, oh, you are awesome, you speak well, and, and so forth. You start to feel like you are a celebrity, like, oh, I am now the person on the, on the screen, and you expect people to kind of almost worship you and put you on a pedestal.

And we call that, that they read their own brochure. Yes, yes, they're reading their own brochure. That's what we call that kind of ego.

I mean, especially as a minister, like, you no longer have time for the regular folks, for just the, the members. Whereas when you started, usually it's a small church, you know everyone, and you really care. But then it becomes a big mega church, and you, you start thinking, oh, I am such a sensation and a superstar. And, uh, you know, you start having people carrying your, your, your bags and your Bible It's just ridiculous and completely unapproachable. And that is really a problem as a leader, whether it's in the church, in a corporation or nonprofit organization, when the leader is no longer accessible and they feel like they are better than everybody else and the rules really apply to everyone else but them. That's dangerous, isn't it?

Absolutely. I call those green room pastors. They think so highly of themselves that they think they if they come in contact with the general population of their church, that they— their anointing will leave, or they'll be tempted in some way. All these wrong understandings. And plus, not every pastor— most pastors are not like this, by the way. But these few pastors that are really have a big ego, they like the grand entrances of coming out late after the service starts because it makes seen, and they come out with an entourage out of the sideboard during the middle of worship, and everybody's looking at them because the door is right off to the platform. Yeah, so you have a lot of ego in not just pastors, but it can be any type of leader. And so, yeah, it's not healthy to be like that. I think pastors— because I have spent 20-plus years in various pastoral roles— I think we should be in the trenches with our people talking with them, greeting with them, you know, hearing their stories. And, you know, we call, uh, in the world of pastoring, we're shepherds and they're sheep. I wanted to smell like a sheep when I pastored. I wanted to hear them— I wanted to hear their stories. I wanted to pray for them personally. So, um, yeah, that's a whole different world if you are trying to be a green room pastor versus an authentic pastor who wants to truly be with the people.

Yes. Wow. That is, that is powerful. Now, one fascinating point you make in your book is that leaders often demand accountability without first providing clarity. Why does this happen so often, you think?

Well, again, everybody requires some accountability. I even want accountability in my life, no matter how old I get and how knowledgeable I get in leadership. I want to be accountable myself. Yes, but if you don't have clarity of direction, then it's just like you're wandering. If a leader cannot give clarity of what the vision is, what the mission is, what the project is, what the assignments are— if they're not clear, then it's like those that are following the leader are just trying to wander aimlessly, hoping that they're throwing a dart and hitting the center bullseye, when in fact they're doing it blindfolded.

Wow.

When there's no clarity from the leadership, and they just kind of give a blanket statement to do this, but don't give clarity or allow people to ask questions to make sure what their responsibilities are, are to be done, then it becomes frustration on the followers' part who is being the one that's accountable to their leader. So clarity is so important. And clarity simply means being clear.

Yes, yes, clarity is so, so important because if you're not clear about where you're going, I don't know how you're gonna know when you get there, right? Wow. And it's almost like some people sometimes they work so very hard, I mean, they, they really put their effort into it, but they're working for the wrong cause. Or maybe, maybe they're even working on something that doesn't need to be done at all just because they are not very clear about their mission or purpose. But now, can you share maybe a couple of common dysfunctional leadership behaviors from your book, or some that you've observed?

Sure. I mean, I mentioned some of them already. One of them is a narcissistic leader.

This is all about me, myself, and I.

Me, myself, and I. It's all about the one, them. They don't really care about their followers. They may verbalize it, but they don't really show it. They It's all about what they want to do. They don't care about your feelings. So there's a whole interpretation and definition.

Everybody knows somebody like that. Yeah, yeah.

And they, they will trample over other people to keep their name out front. They will take credit for things that were done that the team actually created, but they will take credit for the one who did it when they actually didn't do anything. So that's a narcissistic leader. That is what I call a very toxic trait. Now, I always use in my illustrations and all the teachings I do on leadership is it's a spectrum. On one side of the spectrum, on the far side, is healthy leadership, healthy behaviors, healthy traits. On the opposite side is toxicity. They're toxic leaders. So this is it. And of course, you got the all the different variations in the middle, with the very middle being a leader who is unhealthy, but they're not toxic. You know, they are teachable. And so you have the narcissistic leader, which is over here on the very toxic side. You have the micromanager leader, uh, that is a common, common—

micromanagement.

I hear from people who are followers of leaders that leaders who just constantly want to micromanage them and everything they do. And like, for me, if I'm going to be micromanaged, I might tell the leader to take over the job because they are obviously going to do it for me anyway. So why are you paying me to do it if you're going to micromanage me? And so you've got the passive leader who doesn't hold anybody accountable. There are people who just are very passive and they're a leader and they let everything go.

Conflict avoidance.

And then, you know, there's the no common sense leader. That is the one that just— they don't even really know what they're doing. They shouldn't be in leadership at all. They have no sense of what a leader is and what a leader does. They have no common sense or logical thinking. And of course, all these are in my books in more detail, and there's more. But that kind of gives you a 10,000-foot level of some traits you asked for.

Thanks so much for sharing that. Those leaders who are micromanaging, knowledge hoarding, conflict avoidance, credit-taking, narcissistic. Do you, do you believe that the dysfunctional leader can actually change and improve? Or do organizations eventually just need to replace them?

Okay, that's a yes and no answer. Yes, everybody has the ability, every leader has the ability to change if they want to be changed. If they want to acknowledge that they're wrong in doing this habit or that behavior, they can change. No one can change unless they acknowledge that they need to be changed. Now, if you're on the extreme toxic level of that spectrum I talked about, those people are almost very difficult to change because they don't think they're wrong. They think they are right in everything, and they feel like they're the first leader. So those leaders on this far side of the spectrum, further you are to your— this toxic, uh, spectrum of leadership, the less likely they are to change. I know for a fact that the leader that I've mentioned here— of course, no names are being mentioned— that leader, people have tried to change, get them to change. Matter of fact, there's a whole podcast that focuses on this one person telling them. And whether you agree with that or not, that's not part of the discussion. But even this pastor knowing that there's a whole podcast about his behaviors, he's still not willing to change. And that is bad. So yes, a leader can change if they're— if they see the, the— your behavior needs to change and they're willing to accept that they are in the wrong. Yes, they can change. But if you're on this side of the toxic, uh, spectrum, the chances of you not changing is very slim. And in my opinion, you need to be out of leadership at at that point, you shouldn't be leading.

Man, it really takes humility, doesn't it, to lead effectively?

Every leader should be human. It should be very— humility is key. Yeah, be a healthy leader. You know, it's not about us. Leadership is about the ones that are following us. That's called servant leadership. It's the greatest leadership model that's out there, and Jesus exemplified that in the word of God. He was the ultimate, um, servant leader. So yeah, I do believe that servant leader is the route to go if anybody's going to choose a leadership model that's out there. And there are 10 or 12 or 15 that I can call out, but yeah, servant leadership is what we need because it's not about us, it's about everyone else. And I want to fade off in the background and let them shine. I want to take obstacles out of their way so that they can do their job better. I want them to grow better as a person, as a husband, a wife, as a leader, all the above. I want them to become better person in general. And if I can play a part in making them better in everything they do in life, that is what a true leader is.

That is really, really powerful. Now let's go from the leader himself to now the organization and the culture, because you've done a lot of work to helping with senior leaders, CEOs, and so forth to kind of help shape their organizational culture. In the book, you do describe a difference between a default culture and a design culture. Can you explain what you mean by that and why leaders should care?

Yeah, so an organization is only as healthy as its leaders. Okay, so everything, as John Maxwell says, who is my mentor, uh, is Everything rises and falls on leadership.

Yes.

So a, a default culture is where the culture just kind of creates its own self. It becomes its own monster. It becomes its own. There's no one leading. There's no one strategically designing that culture. There's— it's just kind of evolving through osmosis. Depends on who the people are on the team, leaders versus followers and team members. It just kind of evolves naturally. It can be— ended up being a good, healthy culture going that route. But most of the time it's going to be an unhealthy culture if it's just a, a culture by default. There's no structure to it. The opposite of that is a culture by design. That is where there's intentionality to where leadership is very strong in creating a culture that is healthy. They make sure they put out fires quickly. They make sure that their team is happy. They make sure that they have open communication and frustrations and feedback can be shared without consequences. So by default, it's naturally done just however it happens. But by design, there's intentionality. And if you're going to do a— have a culture that's by design, The leadership has got to be intentional about creating that culture and protecting that culture once it becomes healthy.

That is so, so insightful, uh, because I think it was, uh, what's his name, Peter Drucker, right, the father of modern management, who said that, uh, culture eats strategy for breakfast. Well, it doesn't matter how good your strategy is, if you have a bad toxic culture, you're not gonna get anywhere. So when you do your consulting, when you walk into a new organization for the first time, What are some of the warning signs that tell you that the culture is unhealthy?

OK, the first thing I can tell right off when I go in an organization of any kind is body language of the team. I, I have emotional intelligence. I practice emotional intelligence, which is basically reading the room. I can walk in an organization probably within 10, 15 minutes and tell whether everyone is happy or not. By the way the people are responding to me or amongst each other. Body language says a lot. If there's no laughter, if there's no fun going on, if it's just— you can almost feel the depression in the room. You can feel the vibes, whether it's good vibes or bad vibes. There's, there's an environment that you can walk in that you can say, oh man, this feels good. And then there's an environment you can walk in that's like, oh, this doesn't feel great. So one of the first things I notice is body language and just how are the team interacting with each other? How are they interacting with their leader or their department head or their supervisor or boss, whatever leadership role they may hold? That's the first thing I do is I notice, I just notice the behavior of people. In their actions and how they act. And so that's the first thing I look for.

That, that is really insightful. And also when it comes to leadership, it doesn't always have to do with your title, does it?

Leadership is not a title, even though people have titles of leadership. And I think we alluded to this in the beginning of the podcast, that just because you have a title does not make you a leader. A leader can be a leader without ever having a title. And I have seen an organization where there is a leader leading a particular department or ministry, and they have a title of leadership, but there's someone that is supporting underneath them that has no title of leadership, but they're doing more leading with the team than the actual leader themselves. Yes, that's a leadership by title. That's a positional leadership, as you mentioned in John Maxwell's book. But a true leader doesn't have to have a title. They have people following them because they want to follow them. That's a real, true, authentic leader.

So from your book then, what do you think is one of the secrets to wanting to develop into a good leader?

Uh, I think it's pretty obvious for me— self-awareness.

Yes, back to that emotional intelligence too.

Emotional intelligence and self-awareness kind of goes hand in hand.. But you've got to be self-aware about who you are as a leader. I am constantly, always evaluating myself about, am I a good leader? Am I doing anything that's frustrating my team? Are they happy with me as a leader? What can I do different to, to make them better? Not like me better, but, but they want to follow me. They want to hang around me. They want to be with me. So that is— self-awareness is one thing, and there are many leaders who are not self-aware at all. And in order to be a great leader, you must first lead yourself first before you can lead anybody else. That's really the premise of my second book that I'm writing called The Functional Leader. Yes, there are Leadership 101 foundational principles that many leaders who are leading today, they've never had foundational principles taught to them, and they're leading in a leadership role but have a major gap of their foundation of what a true leader is and how a healthy leader should behave and act. So self-awareness is one thing. I even created a, a free online assessment. People can go to my website and request it. It's called the 360 Leader, and basically it's a way that, that team members or followers can evaluate their leader without the leader knowing who is saying what about them. Yes, an anonymous system. To where the leader evaluates themselves as a leader. The followers answer the same questions that the leaders do, but in the direction of the leader. And at the end, I do a deep dive analysis to let the leader know, hey, wow, very highly of yourself according to your profile. But let me tell you what your people following you think about you. And I, I give them a complete report about that. It's called the 360 leader assessment, and that's completely free of charge for anybody who wants to.

That's powerful. Thanks so much. And that's on leadwellsolutions.us, right?

Leadwellsolutions.us.

Wow, that is so powerful. But really, when you talk about being self-aware, it's really in alignment with humility, because as a leader, you've got to think, I don't know everything. I do know something. There's a reason why I am leading this group, but there is no way I know everything there is to know. So there is some limitation to what I can do. And you ask yourself, what can I do better? So you really have to really be humble when you have a great position of leadership, don't you?

Absolutely. You have to be humble. And you'll— any leader should be a student of leadership for the rest of their life.

Yes.

If there's any leader that ever says, oh, I've, I've been through this class, that class, that seminar, I don't need to learn anything else. And I had one leader in my church one time when I was pastoring that actually told me that because I was wanting to do leadership training and development. And one leader says, I've already been through all of that, I don't need to go through it again. He wasn't a leader very much longer in my church because I knew there was a, there was a little cap, yes, lid that he could not go above. And I didn't, I couldn't have that on my team. You should always be a student of leadership for the rest of your life. Listen, I'm getting a degree, a doctorate degree in leadership. Even when I earn that title here in about another year, I will always be learning more about leadership. I will never stop learning about leadership. So I always want to do better and become a better leader. And the only way to do it is just keep learning.

Wow. So powerful. Now, one last question about your book. Again, talking about The Dysfunctional Leader. What is one chapter that challenged you the most when you wrote it?

Well, that's a good question. I think the introduction kind of sets the stage for the entire book. And I, I really wrote, was intentional on how strategic of writing the introduction, setting up the premises of the book. And so, I mean, yeah, I can talk about all those different leader dysfunctional traits that I talked about earlier. But I think the introduction sets it up in a great way in the fact that why I'm talking about that subject. So I mean, most people would say the most impactful chapter would not be the introduction, but for me it is because it kind of tells my, the backstory of why I wrote the book.

So powerful. And the last question I'm going to ask about the book for today is, for someone who reads this book for the first time, what is the most important lesson you would like for them to remember?

The lesson I want them to get out of this book is I want them to take those traits and ask themselves, do I exemplify any of these negative self-awareness?

Again, yeah, all the above.

Do I, do I participate in any of these? And if so, yes, make a change. Allow people to speak into your life to say, hey, I don't like this about you and make the change. So one of the things I did in the past in pastoring several churches in different various roles, I used to do what we call sharpening the saw moments. That's what I call it. And the analogy is these two people who had saws that were chopping down the same amount of trees, trying to race to the end to see who gets there first. And the point is, is you have one person who's chopping away, chopping away, chopping away, not stopping, not, not sharpening the saw at all versus the other person is chopping, but stopping every so often to sharpen his saw and then moving on. And end up the person who stopped periodically to sharpen the saw ends up winning the race of chopping down the most trees.

Hmm.

I did that with my employees and that's what I called it. And so I told my people, it was about every 6 months. I told my team, I said, okay, we're going to be doing sharpening the saws. And I want to let you know that when you come to my office, I want you to share the good, the bad, and the ugly of what experiencing here, even if it's against me. I want to know about it, and it's judgment-free, and there will be no consequences. I will do mostly listening while you do the talking, and I will listen to everything you say. And so I'm allowing you to sharpen your saw by having time with me privately. Yeah, and tell me what's frustrating you. Tell me what your wins are. Tell me what your failures are, what your frustrations are. And I'm telling you, wow, people ate that up because they, they knew I wanted them to be happy. And it made them more productive. When, when your team is happy, they're productive. When they're unhappy, they're unproductive. That's a telltale sign if you watch the productive productivity level of their people.

Man, that's really, I think that's what they call psychological safety, right? Being able to actually pick up and not, uh, feel like you are going to be judged or there's going to be any type of reprisal. Wow, that is so powerful. So this is a great segue to the next segment. Let's talk about executive leadership, because you've led churches, schools, businesses, and nonprofit organizations. What leadership principles remain constant regardless of industry?

Uh, well, when you're talking at executive level, you hold more responsibility. So I know people aspire to be at the executive level. Man, that's, that's the limelight. That's the big top to be at these executive levels. But the higher you go in an organization, especially executive levels, you have more responsibilities, uh, and more tasks. You have bigger fish to fry, per se. Um, I think that person— again, boy, there's so much I can dive— we can do a whole podcast just on this. I'm trying to narrow it down to one point here for the sake of time. I think any CEO— I think if I can go back to highlight this again, is that self-awareness and emotional intelligence. I wish I had time to unpack that even more and go into other strategies that CEOs and vice presidents and HR execs— I wish I had time to go in all of that. But it's just being self-aware about how am I leading and what can I do to help organization lead become better.

Because when you talk about self-awareness as an executive, you have created and trademarked Operation Undercover Leader, right, which uncovers hidden issues inside organizations. But why, why do you think many executives tend to be the last people to actually discover what's really happening on their team?

Because their team will not, does not have the psychological safety as you mentioned earlier, they don't have the ability, the feedback mechanism to share their thoughts and feelings with their leadership without repercussions. So what do they do? They keep it to themselves or amongst each other at the water cooler. So you have leaders who do not give a pathway for their team to share their frustrations, share their feedback. And so you have a team who's over there talking behind the scenes of everything they don't like, and they're sharing with information with each other, bringing the morale down while the leader is sitting up in the, you know, the penthouse level of the organization, not in the trenches, not sensing what's going on with their organization at the frontline levels, that you have executives that are ignorant.

Yes.

What's really going on at that level at the bottom. So I did, I created a service called the Operation leader, undercover leader. And basically, organization would hire me to come in their organization as an embedded employee. And I would do intel for them. If a leader wanted to find out, hey, there's a department head that we're having— I need you to go and serve underneath this guy for X amount of time and bring back a report as an employee and tell me what you know, because we're find out from anybody. No one's talking to us about them. Or maybe the department as a whole is not doing good, and they want me to go in as an employee and just scope out the land and spy it out and then bring back that report to the top. That's what we call— that's what I call the Operation Undercover. Based that on the show called Undercover Boss. Yeah, on television. I love that show.

That is wonderful. Now, you've, uh, let's, let's talk about faith and leadership since you've been a pastor for over 20, 20 years. You have successfully integrated biblical principle with modern business practices. What leadership lesson from scripture do today's CEOs and executives tend to overlook, you think?

Okay, so I'm a Christian believer. I think that's already been said, and I believe in Christian leadership, and I've been following biblical principles. So when I coach organizations, I pretty much stick within the Christian organizations such as churches and Christian nonprofits and Christian businesses. Um, I don't really target myself or market myself to the secular community because I bring biblical principles into everything that I do in Lead Well Solutions. But the Bible is packed with leadership principles. Yeah, if you, if you're diligent and do the due diligence of research, uh, you have characters that, that that follow, that exemplify good leadership and bad leadership, such as King David of the Old Testament, uh, King Saul, uh, Nehemiah, who built the temple walls. He was a great leader, a healthy leader to study if you want to study biblical, uh, characters. You have, uh, King Solomon, who started out very wise. He started out good, but if you follow the story, he didn't end up that great, even though he was the wisest man of the Bible. And so the Bible is— and Jesus, let's just talk about the Lord. Great leadership should be healthy, leadership should be— and just studying him and his leadership traits is enough that you need to do. But there are so many scriptures that I don't have time to get into that teach us how to be great leaders.

Wow, that, that is really powerful. And from time to time, you also go through the book Proverbs, right, written more than 2,000 years ago.

Fabulous book of the Bible.

It's really amazing, uh, those leadership principles are still applicable today in 2026. Isn't that amazing? And, and also, for, for those who follow the podcast, you know, we have two, um, books here for our curriculum since last year. The first one, I think we kind of mentioned already, the 21, uh, Irrefutable Laws of Leadership by John Maxwell. But there is also the Maxwell Leadership Bible. So even if you're not a Christian, even if you don't believe in God, I think more than 80% of the people here do, but for those who don't, just read the leadership article and principle throughout. It's really amazing how you can look at the leader in an old text like the Bible and see, oh, this is good leadership, this is functional leadership, I want to be that. Oh no, this is definitely dysfunctional, kind of like in your book, I don't want to do that and I want to stay away from that. It really helps you, I think, live a much better life. It's quite amazing. So another question then I would like to ask when it comes to faith and leadership, how do leaders kind of balance grace and accountability?

Well, as I said earlier, you got to have people who you got to hold them accountable to whatever they're doing. But there's ways to do it gracefully. There's ways to be kind. When I bring correction to people, which I don't like to do, but when I have to, I do it in a way that doesn't degrade them, doesn't belittle them, that doesn't make them feel this tall when they walk out of my office. I use those moments to give grace to them and say, here's what you're doing wrong. Let's talk about this. Let's see what your perspective is. Maybe I don't see your perspective. Here's my perspective as a leader who's bringing this to your attention and talk about it. And then I also, as a leader, I try to coach them and mentor them through whatever the issue is. That's another part of the grace definition of holding people accountable, is coaching them and mentoring them. Now, there's a difference between coaching and mentoring. The very simple definitions between the two is coaching pulls out of people what's already on the inside of them, where mentoring pours into them. So I play a hybrid role in my leadership where many times I will ask specific key questions to pull out of them what's already on the inside of them without me having to give them direction. The answers to the questions that I ask will bring out to them what they need, including solving problems. The different side is sometimes I will pour into them and I will give them personal experience of experiences went through and, and what to do, what not to do, and I'll pour into them like a teacher would.

Powerful.

That, that is, that's the grace side of helping people be accountable, is just teach and make them a better person in the, in the end, when you're holding them accountable.

Powerful, powerful. Because in the Navy, we are taught, right, mission first, but people always. And sometimes it's true, I've seen some leaders who are very hesitant, that never want to correct or anything like that, and I think that's not good. And also I've seen some leaders who absolutely don't care much about their people, this is just, no, mission, mission, mission, mission, and work them very, very, very hard, almost like they were animals or something, you know. Maybe you can do it.

Transactional leader, by the way, that is a leadership model and it's transactional. There's no heart. It's all head.

You can't really scale, scale that one out. Okay, so let me ask you this. Since 19 years old, you've been leading great, great teams more than 30 years now, not only in churches, nonprofit, and enterprises as well. Has your definition of leadership changed in the last 30 years?

Uh, no, not really. I think, uh, my definition of healthy leadership is exactly that. You know, if you go to the tech textbooks of what a leader— definition of a leader is. It's, it's the ability to, to influence a group of people to accomplish a certain goal. That's the academic definition. Uh, John Maxwell puts it probably more precise and more concise, uh, you know, more— yeah, the simple terms of leadership is influence. Uh, and everything rises and falls on leadership. So leadership, the definition will always be the same. It's how you operate and function as a leader.

That is powerful. How— so in the last 30 years, how differently have you been operating and functioning as a leader? What is, what is, I guess, one of the best lessons you have learned as a, as a leader, since you are so self-aware, that has helped you become the man you are today?

Yeah, I mean, I, I looked at all the unhealthy leaders that I followed that had very unhealthy traits, and I easily for me, I easily looked at and said, I don't want that, I don't want to be like that. So I literally went in the opposite direction of what they did. If it was unhealthy for their action, I completely did the opposite. Yes, that's what I live by. I live by those values of doing something that was bad from— that I was a part of, uh, on the receiving end, to now I lead in a way that's completely opposite. And so powerful. Intentional. I'm intentional about how I lead.

All right, we aren't out of content, but we're almost out of time. Uh, if it's okay, we're gonna do a quick, uh, lightning round. Should take a couple of minutes, but I'm gonna ask you a question. I want you to answer as quickly as you can, first thing that comes out. Okay, uh, one-word answer is fine. What is one of the most underrated leadership qualities, you think?

Uh, I'm gonna say self-awareness.

Okay. What is one of the best leadership books besides your own? That you would recommend?

Uh, the best one that's for me is the John Maxwell 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership.

Very good. My people should know that. It's been in our curriculum since last, last year. Okay. Uh, what is a leader you most admire?

Uh, I'm a John Maxwell fan. There's many I do, but John Maxwell is the first one that comes to mind.

Biggest leadership myth?

Um, that you reach a pinnacle of leadership and you don't have to learn anymore.

Hmm. Always learning. Is there a leadership principle that you will always commit to no matter what? You will never, never—

Yes, I will always make those who follow me better than I am. I will leave a legacy to where when I'm off the scene, that what I did and poured into them was made— it makes a greater impact than what I did. I want them to become better and be better than me.

Okay, what is the morning routine that keeps you moving forward?

I mean, I, every morning I read the Bible and I pray. I make the Lord the first thing in my day to make sure I stay on target with what he wants to accomplish in my life.

What is one habit that every listener of this podcast should develop to become a better leader?

Always be a student of learning. Never stop developing yourself as a leader and as a person. There's personal development, and there's leadership development. You should be doing both of those every day.

What is one of the best lessons you have ever learned, whether in life, in leadership, or just in general?

The best lesson is be a leader that people want to follow.

Powerful, powerful. All right, we have run out of time. So as we end the podcast, what can we do to add value back to you.

Uh, I mean, you can— if you want to reach out to me and find out more about everything I do, my services are leadwellsolutions.us. That's the website. I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram and YouTube. I have my own channel. Uh, that website you're showing shows all the services that I offer. I do more than just leadership training development, but I to do operational services of helping organizations with their systems or the processes, their policies and procedures, and just their organization be better. So I mean, the best way you can do that and get my book, The Dysfunctional Leader, and stay tuned for my new book that I'm going to be putting out here in the near future called The Functional Leader.

Wow. Fantastic. Now, is there a question I should have asked you? I didn't get the chance to ask anything else you wanted to share before we end the podcast. Today?

You know, you did such a great job and I enjoyed you being on my podcast. So I mean, there is nothing else that I can tell you without going into a whole nother hour.

Yes.

I'm just going to always— I named my company Lead Well Solutions on purpose. The first two words is lead well. Just get out there and find out how to be a better leader and lead well, lead healthy. And that should be your whole mission in life as a leader. Is constantly finding out how can I lead better and be a better leader for my team. That's where I'll leave it.

Very good. So if I ask you, if every leader watching right now could remember only one lesson from this conversation today, what would you want it to be?

Yeah, identify your weaknesses and focus on your strengths. Strengthen your weaknesses. We focus a lot on our strengths. Strengths, but we forget about our weaknesses as leaders and as human beings. And we need to know what our weaknesses are and improve those weaknesses. We don't have any people talking about strengthening the weaknesses. We always want to talk about the, the strengths, the positive stuff, which is good, but we always forget about the weaknesses that we have, and we don't tend to work on those because we don't identify them.

Hmm, powerful. Well, I think my audience would appreciate this last question. If you were appointed CEO of a company with a toxic culture, let's say tomorrow morning, what would be the first 3 things you would do in your first 90 days to turn things around?

Well, the first thing I would do is I would talk to everybody who worked for me individually. Of course, that depends on the— how large the organization is. But I would have private one-on-one meetings with them over a period of time to find out how— what is— what do you love about your job? And what do you hate about your job? I would get personal feedback from them. That would be number one. The second thing is, is I would determine who on the team, uh, should not be on the team. There are some people who don't fit in with your culture. They should not be there. They're not teachable. They're not coachable. They need to move on to some other organization because they could be a cancer to your organization. So getting the wrong people off the bus would be my second thing. The third thing is, is is those that are a good fit to be on the bus, making sure that they are in the right seat on the bus, meaning that they are operating in their gifts and their strengths. They're in positions to where they are operating in things they love and they're strong at. I'm not going to put somebody in a leadership role if they don't have any leadership capabilities.

Yes.

I'm not also going to put them in sales if they're not great at sales. If they're better at day-to-day operations and administration, I'm going to put them there. So the first thing I would do is put them in the right seats if they're out of the— awful seats on the bus.

This is a masterclass in 5 minutes. Thank you, thank you so much. This, this has really, um, been great. And I always like to end the show on a positive note. Is there something you are feeling optimistic about these days?

Uh, yeah, I'm, I'm— I always feel optimistic that there's hope in, in leaders becoming better. Um, and I believe if we focus on the word of God and allow that to guide us in our leadership roles and that we're willing to take an inward look of who we are as leaders, I feel very optimistic that we can turn this around and help Christian leaders just become better overall as a whole.

That is so, so powerful. All right. And to end, Vishen, I'm going to ask, what is one word that represents our shared experience on this podcast today? One word.

Education. Yes, education. Is knowledge. Knowledge is power. And when you apply that knowledge, it becomes a superpower.

Well, Todd, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your wisdom. I really appreciate that. So this podcast is going to be readily available on YouTube and LinkedIn as a replay. And by tonight, it should be available on all of the podcast platforms. So thanks again for joining us today and being one of our master teachers. Really appreciate that.

It's been a privilege and an honor. Thank you, Bob, for having me on.

All right, everybody, and today is the day we're gonna have a new friend in the spotlight, and today it is going to be B.K. Fulton. I'm still writing it, but it should be published very, very soon. And for Black History Year, I'm going to be publishing another article today. It's going to be quite powerful. It is about how an athlete in the '30s actually broke white supremacy in Germany. You're gonna have to read the article. It is, it is going to be a lot of fun. So, um, thanks again for watching. I don't think I have anything planned for tomorrow, but I believe on Sunday I'm gonna come back and we're gonna go through— I believe it's going to be Proverbs chapter 27. Again, not a religious podcast, just about ancient wisdom and leadership lesson from the Book of Proverbs. I believe it's still applicable today in 2026. All right, thank you so much for watching the Leadership and Success Podcast. I'm going to end the show like I've been doing since June 10th. It's all about freedom. We celebrate freedom on the Leadership and Success Podcast this season. And thanks again for watching. Bye for now. Oh, freedom! Oh, freedom!

Freedom, oh, freedom over me. And before I be a slave, I'll be buried in my grave and go home to my Lord. And be free. Oh, freedom.

Thank you for tuning in to the Leadership and Success Podcast with your host, Coach BZ. If today's episode added value to your leadership journey, be sure to subscribe, share, and join us again for more wisdom nuggets on how to lead better and achieve greater success. Remember, leadership is the most critical skill of our time. The world will always need leaders to inspire others, drive innovation, and execute meaningful strategy. So why not count yourself among the bold leaders shaping the 21st century? Until next time, stay inspired, stay committed, and keep leading with excellence.