From CIA to CX Expert: Joey Coleman on Building Unbreakable Relationships in Business Part 1

Had the opportunity to work for the United States Secret Service, for the Central Intelligence Agency, for the White House Office of Counsel to the President, sold promotional products for a while, was a Fortune 500 business consultant for a while, was a criminal defense lawyer for a while, taught at the postgraduate level, ran an ad agency for many years, and then after all of those different roles and responsibilities and kind of positions, decided to go all in on being a speaker and a writer. If the customer leaves quickly, the research shows somewhere between 20 and 70, 90% of new customers will quit doing business with you before the 100 day anniversary of becoming a customer. If on day 101, a customer's feeling thrilled about the relationship, they're loving you. They're feeling the connection, they're feeling the value. The typical customer will stay for five years. If on day one, 101, they're loving the relationship.

Good day and welcome to the Wealthy Entrepreneur Podcast. My name is Bob Govreau. I will be your host today. I am thrilled to have you join me today. You know what? Look outside. It's a beautiful day. The sun is hopefully shining wherever you're listening. And I'm excited to bring this episode to you, which I will share with you in just one moment. But I want to remind you that the Wealthy Entrepreneur is the place where we dissect the elements that contribute to entrepreneurial success, from mindset and leadership to profits and revenue. This is a special episode for me and I know I say that often, but it truly is. I'm very blessed to have some of who I would suggest are some of the greatest world leaders in their space join us on this podcast. And this particular time, I'm very privileged to welcome who is my favorite author. He's written two books. We're going to chat about those. His name is Joey Coleman and I'll share a little bit about Joey in just a second. But ultimately this episode is going to be focused on the value and importance of customer and employee relationships and how to enhance those to bring longer lifespans to those relationships and not only live a more fulfilled life, but to have a more fulfilled business for everyone involved. And I'm really excited. Joey has written two books. The first one is Never Lose a Customer Again, which is one of my favorite books of all time. To be honest, he's a fantastic author. I know I'm going to say this again when I bring him on, but a fantastic author. Definitely one of my favorites. Check out this book. We'll put the links below. Get this book. This book I have read I've had it taken from my office. I've listened to it multiple times, at least 10 plus times. Super powerful every single time I read it. His second book is Never Lose an Employee Again. Same concept, different relationship, same challenges, different solutions for different types of people, different types of roles. Joey Coleman is going to bring so much energy and passion to this conversation today and I'm excited to bring him in momentarily. But before I do, I just want to introduce you to Joey. Joey Coleman helps companies keep their customers and their employees. As an award winning speaker, he shares the first hundred days methodology for improving customer and employee retention with organizations around the world. He's worked with companies like Whirlpool, Volkswagen and Zappos. His two books have received critical acclaim, were both instant Wall Street Journal bestsellers. Never Lose a Customer Again show employee shows how to turn any sale into a lifelong customer. And his newest book, never Lose an Employee Again details a framework companies around the world can use to reduce turnover and increase employee engagement. Joey has had a vast background in different areas. Well educated, well read, well spoken. Brings so much to an interview. So I'm pleased to welcome my friend Joey Coleman to today's episode. Okay. It is my distinct pleasure to bring in Joey Coleman to connect with us today. Now, Joey, before, before I start getting you to maybe share your story and your background a little bit. And for those of you who've been in my community, you've heard me talk about Joey, like I do want to say you are my favorite author and I say that as someone who's written or not written. I written, I wrote one and that's maybe it for me. But I've got questions for you on that. But for reading books, I've read over 400 business specific, you know, self help, professional development, learning books. And I have to tell you, I have read Never Lose a Customer Again, your first big massive hit about 10 times because every time I reread reinforces so many valuable lessons. And so thank you for the incredible work you do, but I am so grateful that you were able to join us here today.

Oh, Robert, it is my pleasure and thanks so much for those kind words about the book. You know, every author hopes that they write a book that people will want to read more than once. So you have made my week, made my month, made my year by sharing that you've read the book multiple times. I so appreciate that, thank you.

Well, and I got to tell you too, I. And not that I've tried to do this Joey, but this is just being honest. I Think I've bought this book like five or six times because it keeps going missing from my office. I don't know who the hell is taking it to be honest.

There's a book thief that keeps walking away with copies of Never Lose a Customer Again when Robert isn't looking.

And that's, and that is okay because whoever's hands it in, I'm sure they're learning some valuable insights. But like the last couple times I've actually had this, I've been listening to it on audible as well. So you know, I didn't actually, I had to reorder this for today because I wanted to make sure that I had this in my hands. But you know, the audible version for anybody listening as well, 10 out of 10, you know, as you can already pick up. Joey's got so much energy. It's a great listen. So highly, highly recommend. Joey, let's maybe kick this off. I know you, it's been a bit of a journey for you getting to be, you know, an incredible best selling author. It doesn't just start from scratch. I'd love for you to maybe share a little bit about your journey.

Oh, it has been an eclectic journey to say the least. Robert, I'll do the speed version and then you can dive deep into any areas that that sound interesting. So, grew up in a big Irish family in a small town in northwestern Iowa. Went to college where I studied government. Went directly to law school where I studied international law, litigation and national security law. Had the opportunity to work for the United States Secret, for the Central Intelligence Agency, for the White House Office of Counsel to the President. Sold promotional products for a while, was a Fortune 500 business consultant for a while, was a criminal defense lawyer for a while, taught at the postgraduate level, ran an ad agency for many years and then after all of those different roles and responsibilities and kind of positions, decided to go all in on being a speaker and a writer. So for the last 20 years that's what I've done. I've been a full time keynote speaker, workshop leader, consultant, consultant, book writer, all on this topic around how do we create the kind of remarkable experiences that keep people coming back for more. Thus far, talking about customer experiences and employee experiences and how do we kind of create those experiences as businesses, as organizations, as leaders that really thrive on the human connection and kind of grow the human connection in interesting and unique ways.

Okay, so that's a pretty remarkable, very quick synopsis of what seems like a very varied background and experience. And I did know, I remembered looking this up a while back, I remembered that you had gone to law school. I don't think I knew about working in the White House. Can you share that experience a little bit about what that role looked like?

It was an amazing experience. So I worked in the pending issues division of the Office of Counsel to the President during the Clinton administration. So practically how that worked is we would come to work that morning and whatever they were talking about on the news, either pro or con, is what we would then work on that day. So I worked on Whitewater. I'm dating myself. Some of you maybe remember some of these phrases from during the Clinton administration. I worked on a number of challenges he had with Newt Gingrich. I worked on a number of challenges he had with Ken Starr, the special investigator. And so, long story short, it was a different job every day. And what was so wonderful about it is I had a boss, the general counsel, who was willing to give a young guy a chance. And he would just be like, hey, go figure out what you can figure out about that issue or go, go do some research, go talk to those people, find out what really happened. And I would just go and do things. And it led to some really interesting interactions at a really interesting time in American history and political.

Absolutely. And there's a few questions that I have about some of the experiences and some of the things you probably had to work on that I won't ask about. But I'm fascinated in my mind thinking about some of the conflict and the challenge that would have been around those situations. It was a fascinating political time. And Bill Clinton was such a charismatic leader as well. You'd love to see a nice charismatic leader leading the free world. He. He did a great job at that.

He really did. And my theory is, regardless of what you felt about his administration and his politics, the reality is when Bill Clinton walked into a room, everything stopped and all eyes went to him. And he could talk to you and you would feel in a minute to two minute conversation that you were best friends. He'd known you your entire life, and you were the only person on the planet he cared about. He was remarkable at quickly building connection. And again, regardless of, you know, people will debate his politics, that ability as a human being is re I found really fascinating. It was wonderful to observe. It was wonderful to be in interactions from time to time with him and to kind of have that experience.

And just because I feel like that's pretty unique, right? That's a pretty special quality. You know, I would love to say, hey, I'm great with people too, but I don't know that. Like, that's a pretty unique sort of perspective I can share with you that I have only met one person in my life who I felt the same way and that was Tony Robbins. I worked with him for three years and I had two instances where I got to connect with him one on one, and he was so busy and it just felt like the care factor, you could just feel it exude from him and that I was the only person, even though there were thousands of people chanting his name still as he left the stage. But I was the person in the world that mattered at that moment. And that is a pretty special skill.

Robert I couldn't agree more. I had the opportunity, I was in a mastermind group with Tony Robbins for where we spent a week together every month for 18 consecutive months. And I saw that level of connection and meaning repeat in multiple settings in different audiences around the world. And his ability to just bring that focus and that attention to the individual he was speaking to. I had the pleasure of being the one sometime times and I also witnessed it hundreds if not thousands of times with others. Really, really remark. It's, it's an, it's a skill set that I think we're born with and can create as well. So I think some of it is nature, some of it is nurture. It ends up being a combination of both. But I also think increasingly it's a skill set, with all due respect, that we're not trying to, to craft and hone as much anymore. It's like, well, chat GPT wrote my email, so I'll get the connection from that. And it's like I get it. And that's not me taking a shot at AI. It' Mietra's saying I think we need to stand vigilant about not having our humanity be wrung out of our day to day interactions. I think that's a missed opportunity as a species if we do that.

Absolutely. And I'm sure we could talk forever on that too. Because even the frustration of people not wanting to pick up a phone and have a conversation anymore is definitely a lost art. And specifically, you know, when you start and I'm going to ask you questions about your writing here, and this is maybe a nice introduction or segue, but thinking of the relationships with customers and the lack of that connection with the way that society is today I think is so disappointing. And I feel like, you know, us as leaders, we need to help the next generation coming in make sure that they're honing on those skills and that we don't lose that as a society. So yes, thank you for, for bringing that up. You know, we're in a challenging time and AI can be a powerful augmentation. I agree, but it's, it really is. You know, we still have human connection and maybe the most powerful time to make human connection in history is right now. So what a great superpower to segue into customers. Maybe just share how you actually got into writing. Because it's not. I know you had an incredible career leading up to that with a lot of amazing experiences, lots of education backed opportunities as well. What was the jump off point where you said, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go write these books and I'm gonna become a consultant in these areas. How did that begin?

Yeah, so I'll, I'll give you three paths that kind of converged and I'll do my best to tell these stories succinctly. So path number one, I'm running an ad agency. And my job, of course, is to drive new customers or new clients to my clients, right through marketing and branding and positioning and all these things. And we did a big campaign for a client who we absolutely loved and we got them all sorts of new customers and they were thrilled. And about two, three months later, I was having a conversation with the CMO and I was like, so what are we going to do next year? Because obviously with all these new customers, we've got more revenue, we've got more opportunity. How are we going? He's like, yeah, Joe, we actually, a lot of them have quit. I was like, what? Quit? What do you mean? And in that moment, Robert, I realized that there hadn't been any efforts taken on the retention side of the conversation. All the effort had been placed on the acquisition side. Now to give myself a little bit of grace. My job was to bring him in the door, not to keep him in the door. But I realized in that moment that I was doing a disservice to my clients by not having retention be as important of a part of our conversation as acquisition was. And so we immediately, in that moment changed that. Every client engagement we did also had a retention piece that was just as big as the marketing sales piece. What we found from that is that there were very few companies paying attention and consultants and writers, except to retention. There were so many more paying attention to marketing. In fact, just to reiterate that quickly, if you. I did a experiment on Amazon not too long ago where I went into the category of books. And I searched for the keyword marketing. I wrote down how many books came up and then I searched for the keyword sales and wrote down how many books came together. And I added those two numbers together and I got just over 1.3 million books that had been written on marketing and sales. I then erased those results and instead I searched for things like customer service, customer experience, customer retention, customer loyalty, account management, member management, all the phrases you or I might use to describe what happens after the sale. And even though some of those searches would have come up with the same book, I didn't do any de duping, I just added all the numbers together and I got barely 30,000 books. So what does that tell us? Well, it tells us for every 43 books that have been written on how to get a customer, there is one book written on how to keep a customer. So there was that path path number two. I was speaking to one of my clients that we had done a complete rebrand of their business. And he said to me, hey Joey, or we have an annual users conference. We're going to have about 1500 people there. Would you be willing to be the keynote speaker and speak about the importance of brand and how this works? And I was like, yeah, I would. Long story short, I had never done a paid speech before. I had been on the high school speech and debate team and I'd been through law school. So I felt very comfortable on a microphone in front of people. But I didn't know that speaking for corporate audiences was a thing. And then I got paid to give a speech and I was like, this is fun. So that's path number two, the convergence of path number three as it relates to a book. I had all these ideas that I was speaking about that I was talking about that I was experimenting with my clients in my agency as kind of a little laboratory of customer experience. And I love traveling around the world. And it dawned on me probably later than it should have to be candid, that but there were more rooms with people that I hoped would hear the message than I was going to be able to get to as a speaker. And that was really the catalyst that made me say, you know, I've been thinking about a book. I've been talking about this topic for a long time. I should write a book. And I worked with some folks to put together the book. I talked the book instead of writing it. So we recorded me talking. We did 12 one hour recordings. Those became the first 220 page draft of the book. And so it took about 12 hours to go from my head down onto the page. And we had the first rough draft of the book. But I always share. I had been speaking on this topic for almost a decade before I did those recordings. So that's how consulting and speaking and books kind of converged to create the career that I have today.

No, that makes so much sense and so powerful that really what you found was in the marketing agency side, you found a problem that no one was really addressing. You saw the market opportunity and went, hey, you know what? I've been experimenting on this. I know what the solutions are. Let's take this to market. And then you created this beautiful book, never Lose a Customer Again. And it was released in 2018. And once again, one of the books maybe I've read the most, and that has definitely been stolen the most from me. But I have a few questions on the book that I'm hoping that maybe you can elaborate on. Because, you know, the audience that we speak to is entrepreneurs. And we've got thousands of entrepreneurs I work with. I've got about 4,000 corporate clients across North America. Our podcast audience, they're all small to medium sized business owners who are looking to grow and scale. And one of the comments that you've made here, and I also recognize it from the book as well, is that everyone puts their energy towards attracting them, but that they're sort of coming in and going back out. And I usually talk about this as the hole in the bucket analogy, where it's like, hey, everybody focuses on growth and strategy for marketing and strategic partnerships and everything. But what about the holes in the bucket that aren't getting plugged in? If they're coming out, water's coming out too fast, will never fill the bucket. And you speak to this so beautifully in your book. So the first thought that I'm hoping you can elaborate on that I think is important, is what is truly the cost of losing a customer? Because I don't think people understand that.

Yeah, I mean, there are so many costs, Robert. Right. There's the obvious financial cost. If the customer leaves, you don't get any more money from them. Right. I mean, let's just cut right to the chase immediately. There's that number two, if the customer leaves and leaves quickly, which by the way, the research shows somewhere between 20 and 70% of new customers, 20 to 70% will quit doing business with you before the 100 day anniversary of becoming a customer. These numbers are staggering, Robert. Staggering. 20 to 70% software as a service, about 20% banks, 32%. Auto mechanics, 68%, restaurants, 40 to 70%, depending on the type of cuisine you serve. These numbers are absolutely devastating to our bottom line. And yet, if I were to ask the typical business owner listening to our conversation, what's your churn rate? How many customers are you losing annually? Most of them don't have a clue. They have no idea how many they're losing. They have no idea why they're losing them, and they have no idea when they're losing them or what are the indicators of they might lose them. Additionally, when we lose customers, it decimates morale, right? Because now our team feels the stress. We have to reposition people. Somebody might get fired. There are all kinds of things that happen. So it's hitting our top line, it's hitting our bottom line, it's hitting our heart, it's hitting our soul of our organization. Like, the costs are just unbelievable. Since we talked about how bad it is, let me give you a little bit of hope, right? Research out of Harvard Business School, Stanford Business School, and Bain and Corporation, the folks that came up with net Promoter score that I know many of your listeners use shows that if we can get 5% of the customers who are going to leave to stay just 5%, it will increase profits 25 to 100%. Now, some people hear that number and they're like, joey, I was told there would be no math on today's episode. No, but let me break the math down for you, right? Every additional dollar you get from an existing customer is more profitable than the first. Why? Because you've recouped your marketing expenses, your onboarding expenses, your system setup expenses, all of those things. Plus, as the relationship deepens and they spend more money with you, you have to spend less effort to get that money because they trust you, they value you. And so we want our customers to stay around longer to get more money for them, but also to deepen the relationship with them. And the money in the relationship that we're getting from them becomes more valuable than it was in the beginning because of efficiency, effectiveness, and just the depth of the relationship. So it's a math problem and a heart problem that have huge impacts on our businesses.

And you know what? This is now going to make me listen to your book on audio one more time. Because every time I hear you speak with the passion you speak, we can all relate to that customer. And it's devastating, right? It is. When some, when we work so hard to bring somebody in and then, you know, everyone's team gets involved and something happens that doesn't allow us to retain that business. It's heartbreaking. And to your point, the team feels like their morale has dropped. Because what's happening, you know, is the, is the business going to be here? Is it going to be successful? Because we can't even keep this wonderful customer who came in. So, so very important. Now you speak specifically to the hundred days in your book, right? That you have a hundred days to get it right with a customer, if not less. Can you elaborate on that 100 day period?

So all the research shows that customers are going to leave and leave quickly, given the natural disposition of human beings. Okay, this isn't independent of anything you do or don't do. This is how we're hardwired as humans. How often do you go to a restaurant and never go to that restaurant again? Not because it was a horrible experience, but just because it wasn't remarkable enough to keep you coming back for more. How often do we have all the intention of going to the store and buying a new shirt and oh, I'm going to look so great in this shirt. And then we wake up six months later and it's still in the closet and it still has the tags on or this product that we buy or the book that we buy that we don't read and it sits on our shelf as human beings. Often our vision of what we'll do in the future is very different than the practical steps we're taking on a day to day basis. All of this happens at the beginning of the relationship. And the research shows that if you lay a foundation in the first hundred days, if on day 101, a customer is feeling absolutely thrilled about the relationship, they're loving you, they're feeling the connection, they're feeling the value. The typical customer will stay for five years, five years, if on day one, 101, they're loving the relationship. So this isn't just Joey's feeling, Joey's belief, this is the research. There's 16 pages of footnotes that come along with the book, right? Of all the studies, all the research, we looked at companies globally, small, medium and large, online and offline product and service companies. Companies that did both products and service, domestic and international. All of this pans across every industry on the planet.

Why?

Because every industry on the planet has human beings as customers. That's the thread everybody wants to make it. Well, Joe, you don't understand my industry. And I'm like, do you sell to humans? They're like, well, yeah, I'm like, then it applies if you don't sell the humans, please find me on my website, joeycolman.com come over, send me a message. I'd love to hear more about your business. And maybe with AI, we'll be selling to, you know, AI agentics that in the future, maybe, who knows? But for now, we're only selling to other humans. Let's make the most of the human connection.

Absolutely. All right. Well, damn. You know what? So powerful. And I know in reading your book that you do cite a lot of different experiences with different types of industries, likely trying to connect with people so people can go, that is me in one way, shape or form. But for sure, if we are dealing with customers, we are dealing with this. And I think you start off, if I recall properly speaking, to an example of a dentist and the dental experience that you went through of why you want to continue to go there and the importance of the good relationship. So this will tie in maybe to my last question on this particular book, which is, what are maybe the top three things that businesses could do right now to create and enhance that client journey?

All right, Robert, I'm going to speed through these because there's so many things we could do, right, folks, the book has 46 case studies for you to look to and consider with ideas. Right? But let me give you three overarching ideas that at this moment in human history we can do that will immediately begin to move the dial with your customers. First, let's look at what I call in my book, the affirm phase. Almost everybody listening is familiar with the concept of buyer's remorse, that feeling where we begin to doubt the decision we just made after purchasing a new product or signing up for a new service service. Almost every leader listening has heard a buyer's remorse. But if I were to ask you, do you have a system and a process in your business designed to address the buyer's remorse that we scientifically know every single customer feels? Many businesses, many organizations don't. So first and foremost figure out some communication that occurs between the moment they say, yes, I want to be in a relationship with you, they hand over their hard earned money, they become a customer, and that point where they get the first real moment of truth or value. Kickoff meeting. If you're in a service business, when they receive the product, if you're mailing the product to them. Again, this applies to every industry. What interaction is happening during that buyer's remorse stage to counteract those feelings they're having? How are you letting them know you're excited that they signed on, that you're preparing for the meeting, that the product is on the way. Any number of things that just say, hey, I see you, I care about you. This is going to work out well. Step number one, think about doing something in the affirm phase. Okay? Step number two, many of us have a tendency to think that because we know how our organization runs, everyone who will become a customer knows how our organization runs, too. They don't know how your business operates. Okay? Now, I get that you might have broken it down in the proposal or in the document you sent over, but the team that that is actually doing the work doesn't know what comes next. They either weren't in the room when that contract was signed, or they weren't part of it, or they're, you know, somebody else had been, or they just got busy with other aspects of life, and you're not the most important relationship they have. We need to regularly be reminding our customers where they are in the journey, where they've been, and what comes next. My favorite way to do this is with a visual map. Literally give them a map that maps out the entire journey from when they first decided to become a customer up until the point where they're achieving the wild success that you promised them during the sales and marketing conversations. Right? So that you can keep going back to that map and pointing out those key things. All right? Third idea. Most of us have customers that have been with us for a while. And what do we know about that? As a general rule, most of us take those relationships for granted. Here is the less than $2 US solution. Okay? You're going to take a piece of paper and an envelope and a stamp, and you're going to hand write a note to the customer thanking them for their business. And here's. Here's a simple template for you. I'll pretend that Robert's my customer. Dear Robert, it is such a delight getting the chance to have you as a customer. You know, you trusted us early on when we were just getting started out. You've been a loyal and valued customer ever since then. One of the things my team tells me they love working with you the most about is because every time they get on a call, you seem to have a positive outlook about what's possible. And I gotta say, it just lights a fire under my team to want to perform even better for you. We love having you as a customer. Dare we say we feel that we think of you as a friend. Thanks for being who you are, Joey. End of story. Fold the letter, put it in the envelope, put the stamp on it, and physically mail it to your customer. Why? Because human beings are dying for proof that they matter. Human beings today are dying for proof that they matter. It's why we post on social media and we hope people will like it. It's why we reach out and we hope that people will notice our new outfit will notice the thing we shared on social media, will notice us as we walk into a room. We are dying for proof that we are seen, that we are valued, that we are appreciated. When you stand to send a handwritten thank you note, you are giving someone tangible proof that they matter. And in an increasingly digital world, analog physical touch points are becoming more and more valuable. If you did nothing else based on our conversation today but to send one thank you note to a customer every week via the post, you will dramatically impact your business. Not only will your clients be more excited to work with you and your team will be more excited about the clients they're serving, but you will actually increase the depth of relationship with which usually comes with an increase in the amount of money they're spending with you because they see you differently. You transcend being a vendor or a provider and now you become a friend.

Super powerful and even, you know, back to your original point, 5%. If you were to save 5% of the people that would potentially leave, but they received a letter that was personalized that thanked them for their experience, now they've maybe got guilt of making such decision to leave and also maybe reconsidering going, well, you know what I am, they do appreciate me and you know, they've done good work. So double your profits, you said with, with 5% of the people that would leave.

Yeah, if 5%, say the research. 25 to 100% increase in profits.

Unbelievable.

Just by keeping 5%, folks, I'm not asking you to keep all of them. The book isn't called keep every customer. The book is called never lose a customer again. The whole point is I just don't want you to lose the ones that you could have kept with just the tiniest modicum of additional effort.