Innovating on a Shoestring: Resourcefulness for Small Business Success with Ken Chen

We are not very good at predicting. What we are good at is actually learning quickly and based on the learning, evolve from there. So what you just talked about, in terms of what entrepreneurs do, if we're talking about early stage entrepreneurs, prediction, oftentimes in the context of creating new things is very difficult.

All right, so I'm really excited, Ken, to have you here today because, and just to give a little bit of context, I have the great privilege to be the CEO in residence for the Trent University School of Business. And it's been a few years since I've been at Trent, but my passion and love for Trent was probably reignited to the extreme by being back there and meeting some of the incredible people that Trent University has as students, but most importantly, the faculty. And I've had the opportunity to be, you know, within a few educational institutions around the world. And I gotta say, you know, Trent is nothing short of world class. And the faculty and the experts that are part of the university are, bar none, the top in the world. And I'm really proud to have this connection with Trent University. So, Ken, I know we had the opportunity to connect the last couple of weeks. I'm always blown away with your insights and your passion for entrepreneurship. And, you know, one of the events that we held at Trent University was for the students, but it was more so to help students understand what being the CEO of you really is like. And I think it's really applicable to all entrepreneurs to understand the foundation of you. Being the CEO of you, whatever it is, you know, whether you've got a business or you're in your own career or your family, whatever it is you are the CEO of you. This was a little bit your brainchild. I know you won't take full credit for it, but your brainchild. I would love to know from your perspective what, what the CEO of you really means to you.

And first of all, thank you, Bob, for having me. And I think the world is changing really quickly and rapidly. And what we're trying to do at Trent and many other universities as well is to provide transferable skills, skills that you can apply to your own life and career. And one of that skill is leading your life or leadership in your life and think about how you can strategically planned and sometimes improvise and get to where you want to be. It turned out that is very much what many CEOs do in their daily lives. And therefore, that was the concept. How can we provide students with skills and also experience to let them lead their life and go pursue the direction that they want to pursue.

Yeah, you know, it's. It's interesting. When we brought up the. The concept of the CEO in you, it really made me reflect on, you know, how have I been the CEO of me the last sort of 12 months and, you know, the professional development path that I've been on because, you know, the CEO role, for those of you who are a CEO or for those of you who are aspiring to be a CEO, have your own business, be an entrepreneur, becoming the CEO is. Is something that you haven't done. It's something that you have to learn. And I think, you know, the concept for me of CEO of you is becoming that leader of yourself, of your family, of your community, of your business, of your team, whatever that looks like. Understanding that we need to get ahead of this, you know, understanding that if we want to evolve as a community, as a family, as a. As a university, as a business, we need to understand where we're heading and what skills we need as the CEO of. Of me and driving the leadership of me, what that needs to become in order for me to be successful. And I know doing that reflection the last 12 months, thinking of all of the. The books and the trainings and the coaching that I've had on becoming the leader that I know my team and my family and my community needs me to be, spending a lot of time there because that's. I. I'm the CEO of me. I get to. I get to direct that energy and that attention and that investment in me. And I think, you know, when I think of being the CEO of. Of you, it's really the idea of what do we need to do to be the best version of ourselves? How do we. Because no one else is going to do this for us. Right. We need to make sure that we're investing in ourselves in the right way. And people have listened to the podcast before, definitely heard me talk about the importance of health and investing in knowledge. And, you know, I think, you know, being the CEO of you really represents how you develop yourself into who you truly want to become. And Ken, I loved the idea when you brought this up of saying this could be a really great topic to talk to students and upcoming future leaders to say, you know, the importance of where you want to evolve to really centers around you being the leader of you and where you want to go. So I thought it was super inspiring and thank you for that. Really exciting to have that conversation. And I think more people need to understand that as a leader, as a. As an entrepreneur, as a business owner, if you want to drive, you know, success or a different direction, you have to be leading that. And typically it is starting with your own individual self. One thing that we had touched on when we were at Trent and one of the discussions that we started talking about was strategies for managing unpredictability. And I'll just add in talking with a lot of the students at Trent University, first off, it was inspiring for all of those of you who are concerned about, you know, different generational qualities and thinking of millennials, Gen X, Gen Y. You know, I see a lot of posts on social media talking about, you know, the concern over the next generation. And I got to tell you, I spent substantial time, one on one with hundreds of students over the last couple of weeks and I can assure you we are in good hands because the future is very bright with these leaders that are coming out of great institutions like Trent University. These young leaders are full of passion and ready to conquer the world. And I was so grateful for the experience to be able to enjoy that with them. And one of the, one of the pieces that, you know, I talk to them a lot about, about my journey was resilience. And seeing that resilience is maybe one of the largest attributes that I think any business owner or successful business person or entrepreneur could have. Because we don't know what's going to happen, we can't control external forces, and we know it's not always going to be a smooth path, that resilience is really the number one key. So thinking of that and strategies for managing unpredictability, you know, what would your insights be, Ken, related to, to dealing with unpredictability?

Yeah, and Bob is such a good question and, and also is a hot topic for individuals as well as companies. I think to understand how to manage uncertainty, we have to start acknowledging that there are different strategies for dealing with different types of uncertainty. The most common type of uncertainty is what we call the known unknowns. And that's a situation where, although not fully predictable, there are relatively small range of expected outcomes and probabilities and we can estimate those probabilities. Those most common strategies for that kind of scenario will be forecasting and adaptation. Forecasting simply means that we collect better data and with better data, we can analyze and predict the future. Adaptation, on the other hand, means that we can wait and see, but we need to be responsive and agile. Right. We hear those words a lot these days. And we need to get ready to change quickly once we see the future with a much more kind of, you know, clear, clear Pictures. If you think about tools, those scenarios, those strategies are often associated with scenario planning, contingency planning, something that you can at least, you know, prepare. And those are tremendously useful. But what the even more challenging situation which we seem to see more and more often is what we call unknown unknowns, where everybody's forecast is equally unreliable. Everybody will have their own view, yet you don't have any consensus in such situations, you know, effective prediction is not possible. And wait and see means sometimes you're going to be late to the party. And certainly you can, you know, choose the stay away option. Right. Just not engage. And I often talk about Warren Buffett being very wise, saying that he would not engage in any investment that he doesn't understand. And that's certainly an option. But that's not an option for many entrepreneurs and companies who want to, for example, lead a revolution of an industry or create one of the leading products with the new technologies. Right. That's not an option in that scenarios. So what can we do? It turned out the strategy is actually venturing. And by venturing, what we mean by that is we create one customers at a time. We create useful, meaningful product and solutions that can address what we call pain points of our customers, solving a problem, solving for them. And we may start with zero customers, zero users. But as we refine and further develop our solution products, we get our first customers. And once you have your first customers, you have a legitimate business. Right. And then we can, you know, get the additional 10 and go from 10 to 100 and 100 to 1000 customers. And if there are enough people who will commit to something or anything, it means that you have a market. And really that's what market creation means and what venturing means. How can you go from 0 to 1, 1 to 100 and beyond? And I think that's a very useful strategies. Now we're leaning back to individuals, entrepreneurs. Individual entrepreneurs often create new things. And I think the venturing idea is very familiar with entrepreneurs. But for CEOs who perhaps over the years became a little bit distanced from the venturing ideas because they graduate from the startup stage, they have gone through all the ups and downs. Sometimes they may need some reminder. Every now and then we need to go back to venturing if we want to lead some, something. And I think that can be very helpful.

Absolutely. You know, you said, you said a lot of very interesting things. But you know, one of the things that I, I typically think of in the entrepreneurial journey is, you know, when you were speaking of the Being able to maybe avoid putting your foot forward and choosing to take a risk, and speaking specifically to Warren Buffett and saying, you know, he doesn't want to invest in things unless he knows it. It's interesting. I can share quickly about sort of my approach to it. We consider ourselves a leader in our space and innovating and changing our industry, predominantly by changing the services and innovating our approach to people. And, you know, one of our missions is to disrupt the professional services industry. But I'll say, you know, as someone who comes with a background of perfectionism, so you think of, you know, most professionals, engineers, where it's really hard to say, well, I can't move forward yet because it's not perfect. Those individuals and those markets are going to move slower. You know, then you think of a Steve Jobs, on the other hand, who's like, we're going to launch this iPhone and it's, you know, it's going to be perfect, even though it wasn't. Not even close. But it's like first to market, create something that doesn't exist. You know, go after that, take your chances, know that you're going to fail. But thinking of that from an unpredictability standpoint and going, if you want to aggressively be a leader and, and transition or innovate a market that didn't exist before, you know, you don't know necessarily what that future is going to hold. You can't wait for it to be perfect because, you know, you think of BlackBerry and iPhone. You know, BlackBerry got out to the market first. They captured this huge market share, but then they, they were slower. And then Apple just came in and said, boom, we're going to put a computer with all of these applications in a phone and wiped out BlackBerry. It's. As an entrepreneur, if you want to be the leader in your industry, you have to be able to be willing to head into that unknown territory more than others would. And I believe there's a lot of research around this as strategic positioning. Right, Ken? Like thinking of being a strategic leader versus an adapter. And, you know, I like to say that I'm. I'm a leader with a bit of an adapter mindset, that we want to make sure everything's perfect before we go, but sometimes we just have to take that leap. What's your take on that? From an entrepreneurial perspective? And, you know, even thinking strategically, where would you, if you had, you know, I know you teach entrepreneurship. If you were talking to your entrepreneurs that were in your class, where would you say they should be positioned in that strategy going forward. Like what should they be willing to take those risks substantially, especially if they're starting from relatively small ventures or just ideas.

Great question, Bob. And, and I think, you know, what you have just said reflect the contemporary thinking about strategy and contemporary thinking about entrepreneurship. You know, when, when, when I, you know, think about my undergrad 20 years ago, 20 plus years ago, there was very little entrepreneurship courses. Entrepreneurship was not even a specialization, right? If you took an entrepreneurship course 20 years ago, what would you learn? Business plan? How can you forecast? How can you calculate break even? How can you predict the future? But we have moved so far away from that because we do research and practice, we know that it's very difficult to predict and in fact we are not very good at predicting. What we are good at is actually learning and learning quickly and based on the learning, evolve from there. So what you just talk about in terms, you know, what entrepreneurship, what entrepreneurs do, if we're talking about early stage entrepreneurs, prediction oftentimes in the context of creating new things is very difficult. Well, you can, you can open a convenience store. That's a completely different idea, right? I would differentiate entrepreneurs from small business owners, small business owner, they trying to capture stable and predictable cash flow. You can plan ahead because most of the times you are imitating and you can make a very good living by doing that. But entrepreneurs oftentimes involve creation of new things. And when you involve creation of new things, you have uncertainty, not just risk. And how are you going to deal with that? That's what venturing ideas and strategy comes in. So what today's literature and today's practice would suggest is don't be perfect. As Bob said, we have this concept of minimum viable product, right? And I would define that as a 67% finished product. Let people experience what you want to do. Let people experience what you want to provide them with. But that's not perfect. And that's okay. Give it to them, give it to the users, let them experience it and learn from their experience. And through that kind of interactions, when we find our product, we make our product better. And there is actually a theory behind it, like why we do that. And this relates to a concept called innovation diffusion curve. And what the innovation diffusion curve says is at the beginning of a new innovation, the adopters were innovators, pioneers. They actually do not predict, they do not want finished product or perfect product. They just want to have something that is new to the world and try it. And they're primary motivation is let everybody knows that, you know, I have tried the latest and greatest and that's a trendsetter, right. And think about early stage entrepreneurship. We are most of times targeting innovators and early adopters. They don't need perfections, they just need to experience what is new, what is useful and so on and so forth. And after, you know, we establish a sizable customer space, we started to perfect our products, right. We start to target what is called earning jordies. People who are a little bit risk averse, right. They want full service, they want warranty, they want something that can protect them. Right. That will come later. But at the beginning we don't need to be perfect. We just need to go out and learn. And you know, we often say that the number one job of a startup is not to make money. The number one job of the startup is figure out who the customer is because we do not know who the customer is and what the needs are. Without knowing that how can we make products and how can we make the perfect products? Right? So I think that's very contemporary. And Bob, I think you hit the nail at the head in terms of how today's entrepreneurs should think about starting and really, you know, creating this journey.

Absolutely. Ken, that was so insightful and thank you for that. And I love, see and this is the beauty of talking with someone who's very well researched in this topic when you're, you've got labels for things, you know, and there's labels between, you know, the research behind everything. And I think of it as just, geez, this is what I've learned and what I've gone through. So I appreciate the, the more in depth research beyond just my experience. But I think this ties into the other item that I wanted to address with you which is, you know, thinking of the small business and the entrepreneur. I know I had a conversation yesterday with, with an entrepreneurial type business who's a leader in the industry and talked about their reinvestment in growth and building for the future. And comparing that to what you, you referenced as the small business owner who looks for consistent, reliable cash flow without substantial innovation. But you know, just how reliable and, and stable those businesses are and sometimes they end up being more profitable, making more money and it's almost like turnkey situation. Nothing's changed over the last 10 years and then you've got this entrepreneurial company that's making less money but it's growing, it's changing, it's innovating, it's leading the market space and it's a little bit Frustrating to be in the entrepreneurial seat where you go, well, you know, if we just stopped innovating, we stopped, you know, building a team, we stopped trying to grow, we stopped trying to do all these things, imagine how profitable we would be. But it's not hitting on one of the primary indicators or drivers for us, which is growth and contribution. Like for me, growth is a huge, huge driver for me. And you know, I love the differentiation between the entrepreneur and the small business because I, I do think that they're quite different, like you said. But back to my, my thought, how does that small business or entrepreneur really create and innovate and maybe specifically related to that entrepreneurial market, how do we do that if we only have limited resources? What advice would you have for, you know, the entrepreneur who's, who doesn't have a lot of capital? Resources, how do they innovate and take their business to the next level?

Resources absolutely necessary in that. If we look at research in entrepreneurship, which is not very old by the way, the very first stage of the research that we had was actually emphasizing on capital, research resources. And we know that there are at least three big categories of resources. Human resources, human capital, which is skills and know how and experience. We have social capital, which is the access to people who have resources, your network. And we also have financial resources, financial capital. I think most of the small business or entrepreneurial companies that trying to grow, they really look at financial constraint, financial resources as one of the constraints. And if you look at many of the surveys for entrepreneurship, you often see, you know, the number one obstacle for growth is financial constraints. You know, we don't get the finance and so and so forth. Right. And it's interesting that a couple years ago I, I facilitated a very well organized and funded entrepreneurship boot camp. And in the beginning of the class, we surveyed the participants and asked them, you know, what are the biggest challenges facing your companies and, and how can you grow further? And of course the answer was finance. If we have more money. Now that was fascinating. That was fascinating because there were research, there were research shows that there's a curse of too much capital and there's a concept of too rich to succeed. And what the argument is a firm and individuals actually need to learn how to survive and weather the resources gaps. Those are skills and capabilities. And only if you have experience the ups and downs and learn how to get the additional capitals or repurpose existing capitals or resources to do new things that you can have a sustainable success. Right? So give an example. If we give a person an extra five times of budgets of anything life companies. That person will probably don't know anything, doesn't know what to do with that because that person has not learned how to manage those resources. That person will likely mismanage over, you know, be overwhelmed and because the lack of skills. Right. So one of the things I always kind of, you know, bring in when discussing with entrepreneurs on this topic of resources limitation is that, you know, we first need to understand that research will tell you, based on thousands of millions of entrepreneurs, that you are richer and often richer than you think. And this is a mindset. And as a mindset relates to a concept of bricolage. And bricolage basically says that you can make do with what is at hand. In other words, when facing unlimited resources, make things, make new things by repurposing and recombining what you already have. Real life example, that means when, when Steve Jobs and Steve was built Apple One their first PCs, they didn't source custom parts. Instead they used existing generic components widely available in electronic shops. They also didn't hire anybody, but partnered with each other. Another example, Dyson Dyson vacuum James Dyson made many of the early prototypes at his own garage with cardboard kitchen paper for filters, duct tape, kitchen pipes, you know, that he can find. Right. So before seeking external resources, right. Think creatively about what you have and how you can maybe repurpose some of those. And I think that's a lot of the story that we hear in real life, entrepreneurial kind of experience, how people start by just repurposing, creatively recombining what they have and start from there and then go to external resources or external funding kind of sources to seek that capital.

I love that Ken and I actually speak to that quite often, but more so based on a financial perspective because that's my expertise, of course. And the concept of psychology, the psychology of money and that business owners, if they start to have surplus funds available to them, that they'll spend it, but if those resources aren't available, they won't spend it. They'll achieve the same outcome, but they'll just be spending a little bit wastefully if it's available to them. So one of the tactics that we try and introduce to businesses that are starting to achieve some level of success which is almost, you know, the evolution of how this goes, right? You have to learn to be resourceful to understand how to make things work with limited resources. Then all of a sudden success starts to happen and you start having surplus resources. It's almost repurposing that to say how do we keep ourselves in a place of scarcity and resourcefulness and get those funds out of an operating company and invested somewhere for the future. Because if you don't do that, you're going to spend it wastefully. And now you're creating a culture of excessive spending and wastefulness which likely is tying into your end result of, you know, those companies that have all the abundance aren't successful because they forget how to be resourceful and creative. So I love that.

And I just want to add one more thing. I think this, this is also a question of chicken and egg and I think we have to know an answer to that. Finance, we often think of that as the key drivers of resources and I think research now suggests that it's not necessarily true. It may not be the beginning of your resources. And I'll give you a colorful example here. If we think of competitive financing markets, I think VC Venture Capital will qualify as one super competitive right now in VC funds with the typical 8 to 10 years investment horizons is it is expected that 1/3 of its investments will be written off and another 1/3 will generate 0,0 return and only maybe 5 to 10% of their investment will be highly successful providing the bulk of expected return of the entire VC fund. And the VC fund really is targeting, you know, 10 to 15% after fees. But if we think about that, right. If we think about the math of VC fund so it means that 90% of the VC dollars goes to finance. Someone to experiment and try to make something work. Right. So the message here is what do you think VC is funding? What do you think they're providing those resources. Two who would get those resources? Well, of course are going to be those people who have the know how and skills and experience and also the ability to manage and mobilize resources in the network. Right. Pull together the team and and how can work through the experimentation and find out who the customers are, work through all the technical challenges and continue to evolve teams and organization and so on and so forth. Right. And what we can take away from that is wow. Finance will come if we have something valuable, if we have something that is hard to find. And those can be knowledge and skills and network and team. Right. And I think that is a very important takeaways and I tend to think about finance as the outcome instead of just purely the drivers. I think the ball starts to roll when we have skills know how quality products, quality services and the people who can work together to make this happen. And then finance will come and the ball keep rolling, right? We get better people, we get better skills and we get better organization and more financing can come from there. So I think that cycle of continuous improvement, if you will, or expansions of resources, I think that's a very important concept to understand.

I agree. And I do believe that now more than ever with technology and ease to enter many markets with the use of that technology, that you really need limited financial resources to get started in most areas. I think of strategic positioning for many different businesses. You know, thinking of barriers to entry for a lot of different organizations. I know for, you know, the accounting world, for example, 15 years ago the barriers to entry were strong. You know, you needed substantial software investments, you know, likely needed more manual labor. And then fast forward 15 years, you know, my potential future competitor, which is maybe some of the students at Trent University can go open up as soon as they get their experience and their accreditation. They can go open up a laptop, not even a laptop off their phone that they already have. They can start filing in cloud based solutions. They can connect and communicate within applications versus, you know, needing any. Fifteen years ago was maybe a lot of mailing going out to people. You know, the resources and barriers to entry have dropped for most people. So capital isn't as necessary. It's the resourcefulness of your skills, your network that can really push that forward. Ken, I love that. Listen, I, I, this is one of those great privileges again being able to be out at Trent University and connecting with you, Ken, specifically learning from you over the last few weeks and hearing the knowledge and passion that you have for entrepreneurship, to be honest, is, it's mind blowing. And this is one of the reasons that I'm so grateful for the opportunity to spend time out at Trent is to maybe bring more attention or any of the attention from my network over to the knowledge and power that's at Trent University with, with faculty like you. I'd love to hear a little bit about your story, Ken, about how you essentially went through school and pursued the excellence that you have in the entrepreneurial practice and teaching. So give us a little insight of what it was like to grow up and to get to a position where Ken is sure I'm going to keep it short.

I came to Canada at age of 19. At the time we still had OACs. And so I finished my OACs, I got into a very prestigious business school in Canada and I finished the degrees and I discovered such a great country really welcomed me with open hands and a lot of people along the way opened Doors for me and you know, I was more than happy to stay. My first job was working for the largest beauty company in the world and I was the marketing manager there. And that company was very special in the sense that they were entrepreneurial. Even though they were the biggest companies in the industries, they would give someone like me who graduated from schools a brand manager. And we're talking about, you know, 15, $20 million revenue brand and you can do something about it. And then of course, you know, they have, you know, all the mentoring, all the training and so on and so forth. But that was still very entrepreneurial. After two, three years I realized that, you know, I want to do something else. And when I was doing my undergrads, I connected with one of the very well known hedge fund company in Canada and I wrote a strategic plan for them and we have kept in touch. And when I was considering returning to Toronto, if you will, or doing something slightly more exciting, if you will, and they offered me a position to really have the marketing functions in the companies. And we're talking about 2006. And you know, for folks who can remember 2006, we were right at the middle of a very low interest rate environment. Started from 2001, the market is flooded with capitals and if you look at the stock market is doing very well. So I joined a really magnificent industry, an industry that has a lot of resources and attention and I worked there for a number of years. And the company, you know, started at 2,300 million when I, when I joined and when I left the company was 1.5 billion. But you need to understand hedge fund is 2 and 20 fee structure. So they take 2% off the asset under management, right, and 20% of the performance. So we're talking about really high profits kind of operations. But what really made me change was 2008 and 2009. And for folks who live in that industry, 2008 and you know, couple days and couple weeks of that 2008 financial crisis was really nerve wracking. You can see a possible financial meltdown, financial system meltdown. And you know, we work really hard to save the customers their lumber issues with our products just like anybody else. And we need to make a lot of adaptations and changes. We actually venture, we actually develop new strategies, we actually create something that we didn't know before. And I can tell you that before 2008 we thought we knew everything. We thought we have more data than anybody else, we have more data about small cap than anybody else. And we had model that is more sophisticated than Anybody else in Canada. And we thought we have seen them all. Unfortunately, we didn't see them all. So we did a lot of changes. 2010, 2009, that's when I, you know, reflect upon what I want to do. And I knew that, you know, I, I am interested in entrepreneurial kind of activities. I am very interested in learning about things that not many people may be interested in, going deep into certain topics. And I think that really is what the drivers were in terms of me going back to academics and I finished my PhDs from watch, Laurier and I, and that's a tech, you know, kind of hub. So. And you know, I found a job that, that really can help me or enable me to talk about things that I find interesting and share some of the knowledge not just created by me, but created by many other really smart people, the practitioners as well, and how students think about, you know, how they can, how can, how they can find their ways in life. And I think that's what education is ultimately about. How can we provide them with relevant skills, useful, relevant skills that help them to find their ways and do things that they want. And when they have confusion, come back, right? Come back to school. Not just come back to do another degree, but come back and talk, right? But this kind of discussion, exchange is a community of knowledge creation and knowledge dissemination. So that's my journey. I think that is a little bit long, but that's the best I can do so far.

No, I love that and I can appreciate, you know, 2008, 2009 being a shift in mindset. That was the year I started my business in 2008. So I can appreciate what that was like. It was not a, you know, if you'd have to pick a year to start it, it wouldn't have been 2008. But, you know, again, we understand how to be resourceful when we start a business in an economic meltdown. Ken, it has been such a pleasure and I hope we have the opportunity to continue to collaborate many times over. I appreciate and respect your wisdom and insights and you're the epitome of why I'm so grateful for the opportunity to come back and work with Trent University and be the CEO in residence this year and to, to help bring awareness to people like you and, and to the Trent business community because it really is a world class situation. So thank you for joining me today, everybody. This has been the Wealthy Entrepreneur podcast with my guest Ken Chen. We've been talking a lot about resilience, unpredictability and how to innovate with limited resources. Ken, if people were looking to get a hold of you, what would the best way be? Can they follow you on social media? What's the best area where they can access your knowledge?

You can find me on LinkedIn. My email address is quite simple. Ken Chenyou CA you can. I think you can find me and I'm open for any future connections.

Amazing guys. This has been the Wealthy Entrepreneur Podcast. Thank you Ken. Once again, if you guys like this episode, make sure you share it. We need to continue to bring awareness to the knowledge and strength of entrepreneurship and and especially people and innovative leaders and minds like Ken. If you you have any comments, questions, make sure you post it below. We will make sure that we get those addressed and if you know somebody that you think would benefit from hearing this episode, make sure you share it with them. Anyway, this has been the Wealthy Entrepreneur Podcast. I'm your host Bob Govro. It's been an absolute pleasure and I look forward to catching up with you guys on the next episode.