Legacy, Leadership, and Legal Innovation with Robert Hanna

I think in terms of, I think if you don't have a mission and a purpose in entrepreneurship, I think you'll eventually reach burnout and you potentially may get to that level of quitting. Whereas if your purpose and mission means so much to you that you will not prepare to fail, I think it matters. Niche is no longer good enough. You need to be forensically focused. And I love that because everyone says their niche, everyone says they're in a niche, but, you know, that niche could actually be quite, quite, quite broad. You know, niches are getting quite expanded now. How forensically focused within that niche are you, and what do you want to be known for? It's so important that the only constant in business is change. So we've got to be alive to the fact that you got to keep growing. And I think sometimes people reach stagnation and certain businesses run out of steam because I think they forget that.

Good day and welcome to the Wealthy Entrepreneur Podcast. I'm your host, Bob Gover. I'm so happy, happy that you joined me today. I'm excited to bring on a guest that I'll share in a minute, but we've been able to collaborate the last few years and spend some time helping lawyers understand some of the pressing matters in their businesses and help grow and scale as well. So if you're not a lawyer, it is okay. There are some incredible messages that we're going to share today about the future of business, really, and what we need to be considering as business owners in order to grow and honestly not become outdated. So before I get started, I just want to remind you that this is the place where we dissect the elements that contribute to entrepreneurial success, from mindset and leadership to profits and revenue. Now, my guest today is Rob Hanna, and this episode is going to be called Leading the Legal Industry. Rob Hannah on Law Firm Trends, Clio Partnership and becoming. I got to share this. One of the top podcasters in the world, but number one in the legal podcasting space. To give you a little bit of a background of Rob, Rob has a podcast called Legally Speaking. You should definitely check it out. Yours truly has been on there as well, talking about the financial trends inside the legal space. But Rob. And he's going to share his story in a few minutes. Rob has been on an entrepreneurial journey. In fact, you're going to hear about the. The relations and the roots that come from the legal space and the purpose of what it is or why it is that he does what he does. He's in the recruitment Business. He's in the podcast business, but really he's helping legal professionals advance their careers through knowledge, through education, and through connection. I'm not going to go into too much more detail about all the wonderful things with Rob. We'll include a link to his bio below. Make sure you check that out. But I am so excited to bring the the top legal podcast host in the world to our show today. So welcome to the show, Rob Hanna. All right, so I am so excited to welcome Robin here in just one second. I know we've had the opportunity to collaborate. We're both really great partners with Clio. You may be even more so than we are, even though we are dealing with them every single day. I've had the opportunity to be on your podcast. I know we've talked about, you know, bringing a whole lot of value to the legal space as well, which I'm super excited about. So we're. Without further ado, I want to bring Rob into the show, and we're going to learn a whole bunch about him and also some insights for the legal professionals.

Oh, well, Bob, thanks so much for having me. I'm a huge fan of yours and I love having you on my show. It's one of our most downloaded episodes. And, yeah, I'm really, really delighted to be here. And as you say, yeah, we've both got close relationships with Clio, who I think are doing a great job. So, yeah, excited to get into it today.

Awesome, Rob. So I know we've already talked about being on the other side of the pond, so I look forward to hearing a little bit more background and sharing with everybody a little bit more about you. So knowing that you've got the Legally Speaking podcast, which is one of the top podcasts legally in the world, which is pretty amazing, and congratulations on that success. But maybe if you wouldn't mind, take us back through your entrepreneurial journey and maybe how you got started and where you are today.

Yeah, no, thank you. So I'll tell you why I'm in legal if you'll just let me take this quick gambit. And it's my whole, whole why behind? Because I'm a very mission focused individual. I think in terms of, I think if you don't have a mission and a purpose in entrepreneurship, I think you'll eventually reach burnout and you potentially may get to that level of quitting. Whereas if your purpose and mission means so much to you that you will not prepare to fail, I think it matters. So I come from a legal family. My grandfather ran his own law firm in the 1950s. And I always share this story that one Christmas time I was at his house, I was probably age 10, 11. And I'd say, my late grandfather, why have you got so many Christmas cards? You've been retired from practicing the law 10, 20 years from now. And he says, rob, they're from former clients and the generations beneath them, clients and the clients, families beneath them. And I thought, wow, why do they write to you? And he says, they want to write to me and thank me for the work that I did whilst I was practicing the law. The benefit that the work that my firm did to them has benefited their families and the generations beneath them. And this was in an offline world, Bob. And I thought, wow, what a legacy to leave of being respected, best in class. What better way to have a handwritten card delivered to you every year from families and generations of the work you did. And I thought, if I could be arrogant enough to continue the family name in law, I'm sure as hell not going to let that legacy down. So I'm trying to emulate that level of success, but in a traceable format. We're in an online digital world where my daughter can look up the podcast I was up with you or the work that I've been doing and so leave an online collaborative future, future proof kind of legal community, but through embracing digital and modern form. So that's really the why and kind of how I got to sort of launching my own legal recruiting business. Obviously had to cut my stripes in the recruiting world in the city of London. And it was 2008, it was boiler Room, it was Lehman Brothers crash. Great experience. But I always knew my North Star was start a business connected to legal and just so happened to be that legal and recruiting business. Now the whole crux of the Legally Speaking podcast and things that I'm coming through today. And by the way, if you want to pick holes, Bob, I'm conscious, I'm trying to be concise with of the story for you, for your listeners. I needed a usp. I need. You know, you can't just start a business and expect people to come and knock on your door and say, rob, I'm delighted you you've set up this business. Let me give you your. My business. You know the world, unfortunately, you need to go out there and find ways to market, to get in front of customers, to be relevant. But I wanted to make sure I wasn't just another legal recruiting business over here in the uk. I wanted to be different and I wanted to do it in a way that led with value. I didn't want to be a transactional agency. I know I always said from day one, we wouldn't just help someone find a job, would help them throughout their career for life, because that's a relationship. People will change their roles throughout their time. And I thought, how am I going to get clients? I need the law firms to talk to me. I need to go and get these law firms to understand me because they'd have been working with my competitors for 10, 20 years. Lots of goodwill broken up then. So Fast forward to 2019. Nobody in the legal recruiting space, potentially much in the legal world in the UK had a podcast. This is 2019, late 2018. So I became one of the very early adopters of thinking, right, how can I actually think about marketing myself and going to prospective firms? And it was through launching a podcast. So rather than ringing up a law firm partner saying, hi, I know you're exceptionally busy, would you like to give me some opportunities so I can help you recruit? That's all about me. And you know, Bob, as an experienced networker, it's all about delivering value. So I thought, why don't I flip the narrative when I'm going out to try and find business as part of this entrepreneurial journey of trying to build a business and actually think, why don't I say to them, hi, I've launched this legally speaking podcast. I've actually reviewed the last five articles that your law firm has released about you that I've actually tracked. The SEO and the engagement on that is exceptionally low. I would love to just ask for half an hour of your time where I will get your story out, your message out there, and I'll make sure that in the world of podcasting, did you know that this can go out in 5,000 cities at a click of a button once I upload it to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, etc, etc, etc, right? And this is 2019. This is pre people going on podcasts and doing this. This was sort of even more like.

Before it was cool.

Yeah, before it was cool. This was novel and this was exciting. And, you know, you'll be able to repurpose that content so you can turn that into, you know, video format for your talent attraction. Also retention. You can play clips to people about your story. Your. So I came up with all this value drop to this person and all I need is half an hour of your time and I'll give you a year's worth of content. And I didn't even mention Any. Anything about the sort of legal recruiting side at that point. So you get them on, you deliver your best job, you research them, you make them feel really empowered. Everything else, and they're like, oh, legally speaking podcast. But I see you've got a company called Casey Partners. What does that do? Oh, funny. That actually does a lot of my legal recruiting. Oh, okay. Well, look, really enjoyed working with you. Like, if we're ever hiring, of course we're going to. And so you get the story, right? So I led with a thought leadership tool which would enable me then to also build personal brand and put thought through collaboration. Collaboration is domination. So I'd bring people in, give them a fantastic experience, and then I would hijack that audience because then I can put that out in newsletters, I can put that out on social channels, I can distribute that. And it's quality content because I'm interviewing people who've got really good things to say about the audience that I wish to talk to. And that's kind of how it went. So that was kind of my strategy, I think, is one of the most sort of novel that I've done in terms of starting my business in terms of I'm not going to pick up the phone and call, call and do what everyone else does or try and do these outdated methods or I really thought what could be a different strategy and a different play. And yeah, of course I got things wrong and it didn't completely work and some people still said no. But fast forward to where we are today, 2014. As you very kindly said, top 1% of shows in the world. We've become our own media companies, complementing my main company now we've got sponsorship deals, brand endorsements, Carole Baskin, from Tiger King through to Jack Newson, CEO of Clio. You know, all these amazing people and it's been great. But the whole why was the family legacy piece and the strategy for why the podcast plugged it was I needed a vehicle to get myself noticed and that was the time to do it.

Wow, dude, that's first off. Thanks for sharing the story about your grandfather too, because I think that is so powerful. And I can personally tell you that if purpose hasn't been driving me, I would have burnt out, crash and burned years ago, if not every year. You know, it's so very, very important. And the fact that you led with that, I know that your generational family would be so proud of what you've created and built off of such a very well defined purpose. So kudos to you, my friend. That's awesome.

No, thank you. And even as I look up ahead of my laptop here, I have his sort of certificate when he first got articles over here back in. And it's also my accountability because I look at that and think tough days in entrepreneurship, right? We're always growing. There's always growing pains or there's challenges or the setbacks. But I've remembered if I've been verbose enough, as I said, to carry his legacy, then I'm accountable to make sure I don't let that reputation go south. So, you know, it's a really good also a part of accountability metric to keep driving you to keep wanting to be better, to ensure that actually my legacy can be even greater than that. Why not? But let's make sure that it stays at the standard that absolutely needs to be. And so it's really good for my own self accountability.

Yeah, 100%. So let me side note, you know, I've got a lot of law experts that we work with. If any of my clients that had an opportunity to be on your podcast for you to share their message said no to them, I feel like I'd want to smack them around a little bit. Right. And like it's just such a lost opportunity to get your message out there. And I think the only reason people would say no is based on fear or lack of knowledge because, you know, having a vehicle to get their message out, to help people to fulfill their mission, like you're helping people fulfill their purpose in what you're doing. So I love that you lead with value. I spent a lot of time working with Tony Robbins back in the day and that would be one of the, you know, one of the cores he talked about successful business and growth is to lead by giving first and then building those relationships and you will receive it back.

Well, contacts are good, but it's the relationships that pay. I remember a mentor said to me, but also we are no longer and this was still quite early back in 2019 in this B2B B to C. Yes, we are by definition, but we're actually an H to H. We may even talked about this when you came onto my show, Bob. But it's human to human connection. Right? And the more you can connect and I'm my and I believe in the wav strategy that you either are strong at written audio, video. If you're a legend, you're probably best. You're great at all three. But actually my, my biggest strength was probably audio and communicating through audio. And at the time I thought Great. I'll play to that strength of interviewing because I've been interviewing people as part of my content craft for people's motivations for career changes, for reasons, you know, maybe they've been struggling in a profession, whatever it may be. So again, I utilize the audio of that wav strategy and I made sure I could really connect with these people over the power of voice, the medium. And then you just build up that genuine human to human connection and from there it's a lot easier to foster relationship and hopefully get business off the back of it.

Yeah, 100%. So let's talk about your recruitment business for a second. So the last few years as a professional services business, you know, we aren't, you know, a full fledged law firm, although we do help our clients with some legal aspects of their business. But more so on the, on the CPA side, I can tell you, finding people had been a challenge over the last couple years. So can you talk to me a little bit about how your recruitment agency helps support law firms? And listen law firms, if you can find somebody who leads with as much passion and purpose as Rob and his team to help you find people who align with what you do. Like, so powerful. Rob. I'd love to hear a little bit about how that works.

Yeah, no, and thank you again, Bob. I think again this comes to my strategy piece, actually. It links to. In the UK there is a growing theme of US law firms coming into the London market, right?

Really?

Yeah. And you think of London, right? It can transact because it's the time zone. You've got the way it works. Obviously us waking up and then far east in the evening. It's a great place for complex cross border deals to happen in the hub. And I noticed this trend quite quickly. So not only with the podcast, I thought, okay, well, U.S. law firms are setting up their satellite offices if you like, and they're paying a premium. They're paying premium salaries. You may have read about this in the news as well, the crevasse salaries. And I thought, wow, so not only do I need to make sure I get busy in terms of my thought leadership and content, let's be really strategic about where I invest my time in terms where I can get an upside. You know, one placement and one deal with this firm could be worth five or six with say more local firms. So we really specialized, and that's the key point, right? We really specialized in the core areas of where there was demand, which was corporate M and A activity, dispute resolution, litigation, arbitration. So our sweet spot is helping people that have qualified up to the sort of partner level, and we really understand the market. And I guess another reason why I particularly built it around that transactional activity was because I'm involved in businesses. So I've been instructing corporate lawyers. I know what an spa document, a share purchase agreement looks like. I know what reserve matters mean. I know certain clauses. So, you know, not only you getting an organization who's got, you know, 10, 15 years of recruitment experience, anyone can do that. I know your world because I'm an entrepreneur. I'm a business person. I understand I'm negotiating with you. You know, it might be on that fixed rate, it might be on that billable hour, it might be on a term. So not only do I can kind of be, I can be in their world. And I think the more that you and Jack talks about this in his book, the client centered Law firm, the more you can really understand your clients and meet them where they're at and be in their world and empathize with them, the better it is. And that's what we really do. We go deep into understanding our law firm clients that we support, so then we can go out and really sell and get them the best talent. And the best talent is not sat there waiting for your phone call. They're busy being successful in a rival firm, and they need four or five compelling reasons why they should even pick up the phone to want to talk to you. And they're exactly the people you want because they're the ones that are happy and being looked after. So we specialize in carving out the right people that are very happy who need to be really kind of influenced in the right way and painted the picture and sold the dream. But again, in a professional way that makes them feel like they're feeling good about their decisions. That's what we do. So we make sure we understand our clients, warts and all. And we make sure we go out with a really strategic play to attract the absolute best talent. And that means we don't work on volume. So we're boutique, we're nimble, and we pick our spots, and the mandates we work on, we deliver on.

And for any entrepreneurs who are listening to this, guys, this is the type of recruitment that you should be looking for. That's exactly. And Robbie nailed it. You're looking for the top talent that aren't thinking about you because they're so focused on delivering value for the firm that they're working with, and they're considered top talent. And you need to Tap them on the shoulder because they're not looking at you right now. Really great, Rob. Love that. So transitioning into the fact that you have influenced the legal space globally. Right. We're not even just talking about on the other side of the pond. You've now infiltrated North America, which is pretty powerful. You've partnered up with Clio, which is. Which we know now, the most valuable legal software company in the world as of a few weeks ago, which is a pretty incredible announcement. I would love to hear maybe a few insights that you've got over your years of working with influencers. What are maybe some of the top lessons for law firms that you would have or would have learned from some of the guests that you've had on your podcast?

Yeah, I mean, I've touched on it in my own regard, but I definitely think, understanding why you. Again, think about everyone's favorite radio station. If you're a corporate lawyer and you're delivering standard straight up M and A, or it might be, be private equity, you know, those sort of services and you're looking for big ticket work, then wifm, what's in it for me? Everybody's favorite radio station. So you need to make sure. And this has been one of the key themes, you know, of people mastering their crafts and, you know, be super specialized. I think it's slight variations by geographic, but over here in the uk, there's real specialisms of legal services and that's really, as you get more and more senior, that's really important, specialized. So I heard the term the other day, Bob, which I think you're going to like. Niche is no longer good enough. You need to be forensically focused. And I love that because everyone says they're niche, everyone says they're in a niche. But you know, that niche could actually be quite, quite, quite broad. You know, niches are getting quite expanded now. How forensically focused within that niche are you and what do you want to be known for? And I've even adopted that into my own business in terms of. Right. I need to be even more forensically focused in terms of what I'm doing. And I heard another great gambit from. And I'm tangenting away from your question, so pull me in when needed.

No, no, this is okay. This is good.

I like it from the late Steve Jobs around focus. And he said it's very easy to say no to things and focus to things that you don't want to do. The definition of a focus is staying focused. When you want to say yes to something that you'd like to do. And I think the more you can maintain that focus with that forensic lens, the far better you're going to be in terms of delivering your services. So the people that I've come onto my show and the entrepreneurs and the people who have done very, very, very well is they've done something very well and stuck at it. So, you know, the lawyers that have risen to the top have had some of the top personal injury. Let's go to Cleo. You know, we're fans of Clio. They have a very straightforward mission to transform the legal experience for all. If you speak to Jack, who have had the pleasure of interviewing, I know you have as well, Bob, I think he's one of the most humble, genuine CEOs of a multi billion dollar company. I've only got nothing but love for Jack and the mission. We support that. But all he is focusing on is that transforming. If it's not in that box, if it doesn't come into that box, it's not, it's not in line with where their North Star is and where they're going. So the lessons I've picked up from these top, top, top achievers is having that forensic focus. I think it's the number one lesson I can teach anybody because we get so busy being distracted. You know, you might be a partner in a busy law. I need to go to a business development conference now. I need to go back to that client. I need to do this and actually prioritization, understanding what is most important and how do I become the best at that. The next layer on top of that focus is you're not going to know it all. And if you think you know it all, then I'd be worried for you because I don't know at all. You need to have your board of 360 directors around you. You need to have mentors. And they are not people who are just ahead of you. There are people that are beneath you. The next generation. You need to listen to that next generation because we live in a world where actually that generation beneath us is super smart and they've got skills and experience that can help, particularly law firms, you know, when it comes to marketing, business, social media, all of these things that you may touch on. So another thing that I've noticed from people that have been interviewing is they have mentors, they have coaches, they have people that upskill them. Obviously you've mentioned you've done lots of work with Tony Robbins and et cetera. You know, prime example, you know, one of the best out there in terms of, you know, coaching, helping people bring out the absolute best in them. So not only the focus, but it's also those that what I call your360 board of directors around you, the people that will influence you. And be careful of the information you consume because you want to take information from people that in my opinion, have been there, done it and got the credentials. They're the ones that can really help upskill you to get to the next level. Because new level, new devil. As you progress, there's always going to be a new challenge. A new challenge. And the best way to shortcut that is through mentors and coaching, in my opinion.

Yeah, interesting. I love Forensically Focused. I wrote it down. I'm going to have to chat GPT it later and see how I can incorporate it into a bunch of good stuff. But I had, and I want to call him a friend, but definitely someone who was on my podcast, Chris Bumstead. I don't know if you've heard of Chris. He's five time Mr. Olympia and he talked on the podcast and I think it's so reflective. Back to Forensically Focused, he was going for his last Mr. Olympia and he had an injury in his shoulder. He's an entrepreneur. He's got four or five businesses going on as well. And his wife was also Mrs. Olympia or Ms. Olympia. And he was going for five times and he was, you know, he's 30 now. He's getting a little bit old being a, although he looks amazing, a bodybuilder. And she sort of pulled him aside and said, listen, do you want to be the best in the world or do you not want to be the best in the world? And he said, what do you mean? Of course I want to be the best in the world. She said, well, if you are not, and I'm going to throw in Forensically Focused in here as part of this, but if you are not forensically focused on what you're trying to accomplish, someone else is going to be more focused than you have, more motivation, be more inspired because they want it more, because they're more forensically focused and they will knock you out. And he then was like, hey, business partners, I need to take a leave for the next eight weeks here while I train for Mr. Olympia one more time. And he ended up winning. But he said if he didn't have that sort of, of moment of realization that I need to be forensically focused, he would have lost the title. And I think that is so, so applicable to every business owner Rob, across the board that if we are not willing and desiring to be the best at what we can be and focusing forensically on what that is in our specific situation, we will lose opportunity, we will lose momentum, we will not fulfill our purpose and our mission. So I love how you tied that together. Feels so good.

Well, I also, there's a, there's a lesson I think from that story as well. And thank you for sharing that, Bob. He's got the right people in his life. You know, not to turn this into a life coaching, but you know, he's his, his partner has absolutely communicated the right message. The information he's consumed from the people he respects and values is good. So the decisions you make in terms of who you hang around or be it be your, your partner, your businesses, is so influential on your life. You know, people can sort of look at that, but it's the truth. You know, the people that are around you, that shape you, your daily lives, your habits, whatever it may be. So that exact moment was what he needed to hear. So it was such great advice from the right person. But the only thing I would add to this as well, because it's all good as part of the textbook, but you've got to look at the 1% gains, right? So what I mean by that is you're not going to become forensically focused tomorrow. You know, you're not suddenly going to become a forensically, but you'll be 1% better as a forensically focused person the next day because you're up, you're developing a habit. So done is better than perfect. Perfect never gets done. And we've heard that time and time again. But it's so important. So create a habit that's going to enable you to be that. Don't just sort of be used to explain like what's one thing you're going to change. It could just be, I'm going to put 15 minutes out of my calendar a day to make sure, whatever it is. But there has to be a habit or an action that's going to allow you to change. Because I think so many people stop at perfect inaction, whereas I would have imperfect action, but make sure I get better and better over time.

And so what an interesting segue here, Rob, that you've brought in. So we are both going to be at Clio Con in October in Austin, Texas, which is going to be super exciting. Rob is going to be podcasting his butt off there, interviewing a lot of world class people like myself. I don't know, we'll throw that out there.

Absolutely, Bob. Absolutely.

And so you talk about the 1% gains, and 1 of the headline speakers who's actually heading to Clio Con this year is James Clear of atomic habits. And that's exactly what he focuses on. Let's talk Clio Con for a second. So what is it? I know, you know, we're both going and it's exciting and Austin's a fun city. What are some of the things that you're looking to accomplish there and what are some insights about maybe Clio Con that we can share with everybody about how amazing of an event it's going to be?

Yeah, my first ever Clio Con was last year, and it was hands down the best legal conference I've ever been to. And it was from an experience. Right. And this comes back to Clio's mission of transforming the legal experience for all. That's not just in the delivery, you know, it's. It's an event. Send it everything. You know, the experience I had, I came away energized, I came away educated, I came away more connected, I came away more, you know, all of these things. So I would say for anyone, if you want to be at the forefront of legal or you're curious about technology, maybe not just obviously it's a legal tech focused event, but if you're an entrepreneurship, you're thinking of a startup. I genuinely think it's one of the best conferences you can be at in terms of experience, the people you'll meet, the quality of the content. So absolutely go for it. And the other good thing is they get the fun part right as well. Because I strongly believe in business you have to have fun. You can work hard and absolutely, there's going to be tough moments, but you still got to have fun along the way. Right. And Clio does a really good job of incorporating the fun. Last year at Nashville, I was at the Grand Old Opera, the home of music, you know, Nashville. Wow. Amazing experience. It's great. So fast forward to this year, Austin, Texas. I've never been, so I'm loving the fact that I get to go around different parts of the US With Clio, you know, media partner with them, which is great. I'm really looking forward to being in Austin, maybe trying a steak, all of that good stuff. But as you say, because you don't.

Have any steak on the other side of the.

No, we don't, we don't, we don't. We just can't find it. Honestly. There's a shortage, there's a Shortage coming. But to your point, yeah, I am going to be focused when I get there. Like, I am very aware, this is, is a business trip. I have 48 hours. I want to collect as many business cards, I want to interview and meet as many people as possible and build my network, build my brand and build my connection. Because you very kindly said we partner with Clio and that's helped us break the US but we still got work to do, right? I still believe I'm delivering my mission. I've still got work to do. I need to get busy, I need to get out there and I need to be networking, networking, networking. So a key agenda for me is absolutely getting the education through the thought leadership and some of the talks. But I'm going to be on the mics, I'm going to be meeting new people, and I'm going to be doing a thing that I called work warm. Bob, and I even said to you off air, you may not remember this, but I said, bob, when we're over there, can you make sure you introduce me to people as people? So always remember this when you're networking, who do you know who can introduce you to someone you don't know? Really simple, easy strategy. It's a warm intro and Bob, you may wander up on a day, hey, this is my friend Tom or Sally. Come and meet Rob straight away, bang, shortcut my time on the planet because there's someone there that can work warm for me, that can give me the intro. So big tip for you when you're going to these big conferences, reach out to everybody you know, tell them you're going to be there, tell them to introduce you to one or two people you think will be valuable who know your audience. Such a quicker way to get people to come to you because you say you're in this media area, it's going to be a boarded area. It's very easy for people to find me and be like, hey. And so, yeah, that's just another strategy of a believer whenever you're doing anything, like, try and work as warm as possible to get the result you want as quickly as you can.

Yeah. And so I know forensically focus is something that not only that you've talked about, but I know you practice it. So just thinking about your podcast and again, being top 1% or top 1.

And we're top, and we're top of good pods, which is trying to go. People probably know Google podcasts no longer exist. And so you've obviously got Spot, Spotify and Apple as the main Two platforms, but good pods are really trying to build the podcast community of the future. So we're landing number one there for law and have done for the last 12 months consecutively, which is super cool. And it's again, because I like the, the people in the platforms that are on the journey. We've just gone from a whole new rebrand and we went to the details of that, right, in terms of, you know, what should the colors be to represent the sort of, you know, the signal, the message out for our audience. What should be all of these little things? Because once you get to that sort of, you know, you very kindly mentioned where we are, there's a standard, right. And people will not. You need to buy people's loyalty. And my opinion of buying people's loyalty is always going above and beyond to delight them. So what are the new things? Why should they still be excited after listening to our show for, for five years? What. How can we just be arrogant enough to think they're going to stick around? Because people get bored, you know, people might want to go and watch a news, listen to a new series. So we really thought really hard about the rebranded and also with like, AI, like, what AI integrations can we do? And we've brought in some quite cool, quirky things. I'm happy to share if useful, because it's very important, but to the forensically focused, which is definitely going to be part of this thing. When we first started, there's a thing called topic of influence. And this is my biggest tip for anyone if they're thinking of starting a podcast. I gave the story of, you know, I needed a business development tool, thought leadership. To have a successful podcast, you need to have a topic of influence. My opinion, I learned this from Steve Olsher, who's one of the greatest podcasters, in my opinion. And it should be one or two words that you write into Google. That is the pain point. Why are people listening to a podcast is because they're searching for either education, inspiration, or some form of entertainment. So for us, my topic of influence has always been around legal careers. Now why is it legal careers? Because think of the hook on the back end. I'm helping people with their legal careers. So everything that we've done in terms of the content and the guests that we bring in, yes, that can be broad, but the narrative is in and around. How is this connected to the legal and careers? And so as a result of that, we've always stayed connected to what our topic of influence is. And of course, that can touch into Diversity, inclusion, mental health, technology, you know, all entrepreneurship, all of these different things. But the key thing is when people are typing into Google that pain point, you want to be the topic of inference and the top of mind. And so that's always been the heart of what we've done on our show. And I think that's the number one reason why we've stayed. We haven't tried to be sort of everywhere and just be generic. We've tried to really channel in on that topic of influence, and I think that's really helped us and also attract brands. And as you say, we partner with the world's biggest legal technology company, 56 on clouds for 100, you know, 3 billion valuation. You know, we've had a continuation year after year after year. We now get flown out to clear, you know, they're expecting. Right. It's lovely and it sounds great, but there's expectance expectations there. Right. And you've got to show why you're good enough to have that badge. And I feel like we've absolutely stepped up to the plate and continue to do so.

Yeah. And again, I'm so grateful that Clio has partnered with you and that we've been able to collaborate. And I think you bring so much value to everything you're doing. You bring so much value to law firms. And even thinking now as you're talking about careers, law careers, it is so everything is wrapped up in law careers. I'm trying to poke holes in everything. I've listened to Rob and I'm like, damn, he's really aligned on that. So I love that. Thinking of, and maybe just shifting gears a little bit back to, you know, law firms and some of the areas that, that you've seen. What are you seeing in the future? What are some of the legal trends in the legal space that you're seeing that people are either taking advantage of or that they should be aware of heading into the future?

I think the big one, and it's super contentious and you may have a view on this as well. Bob, is the. Is the billable hour, right? I think the pricing model, I think there's been some really interesting legal tech companies I'm not sure if you're familiar with. Scott, Leah, Altfi. They're a really good pricing business. I think the growth of the subscription model for legal services off the shelf is going to continue to go. I think the big law firms have had their day and I think they've cashed in. I think particularly with the advent of legal technology and AI, the way people buy their legal services is going to be completely different. And I think firms that can get onto that page and be modern and nimble and maybe even look at what my friend Sean Jardine, who wrote the great book, and I'm not on commission or anything, no affiliate links, but definitely go and have a look at it. It's a value based pricing, that strategy about offering a menu of options and actually not just being stuck on the billable hour. I think firms that can kind of get into that world of value based pricing versus the traditional model will be really, really successful. I think in terms of, of sort of, sort of practicing of law, there's role changes, right? You know, now when I first started it really was just, you know, it was the legal traditional route. There's so many new career opportunities. So the trends of law firms in terms of what the makeup looks at. So we've got the magic circle over here. Our top sort of, you know, law firms, what we call it. And people will probably be familiar with the Allen over in Sherman, the big transatlantic merger that happened. You know, now they're asking their graduates or their juniors, like what's their age AI capabilities? You know, they're testing already at the junior end because that's obviously going to be a change in personnel and demographic and skill set. So I think the skills that are sort of going to be needed of some of the outdated, they're not going to be needed in law firms anymore because the AI is going to be doing that work. So I think that's going to be an interesting trend that's going to continue to develop on the people side, I think the pricing side. And then I think just generally in terms of the product offering, I think we need to still think about that H2H, the human to human connection. Because if more time is being freed up to through legal technology or using a cloud based platform like Clio, you've got all the integrations, you've got all of this working for you. You should be using that extra time to can you go deeper with your clients? Can you go even further with that relationship? Can you get even higher ticket work off them? Can you get higher ticket referrals off them? I think those sort of people that really invest in that and that relationship time through the time save that technology brings, I think they'll be fit for purpose and they'll be fairly future proof. If I can segue just slightly into the B2C side, I think a business that I'm maybe it's a shameless plug here, Bob.

So forgive me, but no, let's do it, Rob. Yeah, you've earned it. You've earned it.

I feel the way that people will find a lawyer in the future, will be in the company I've just gone onto the board of called Case Guru and what that does, it's an AI first legal tech business. And this is why I get excited, right Bob? Because whenever I don't know about you, but when I'm looking at if I'm going to invest in a business, I'm to going to be excited about it, there's a few things I look for. Number one is the people. Do I believe in the entrepreneur behind it? Do they have the resilience, do they have the grit, do they to really, really do it? Then I look at the problem, you know, how big is the problem? They're trying to ascertain, you know, how big is that market cap, you know, how big could it go. Then I look at actually in terms of, so I've got the person, I've got the problem. Then I look at the process, right? Can we build some capital, some ip? Can we build something that will be valuable? So as an equity shareholder, I will get an equity. So they're the kind of three things that I really look for. And Case Guru for me ticks all three. So let's say you're, you're going through a divorce, tragic situation. Outside of asking your friends and family, where do you go to ask for an attorney or a lawyer? People don't know, right? They'll Google maybe go on and they'll get some random poppers.

Sometimes they ask their accountant, I'll just tell you that I get that off.

And maybe this could transfix into the accounting work. What we've built is where you could describe your case AI prompts so you get a proper understanding and actually that then gets fed to the back end to the lawyer who signed up to the platform. So it's lead flow for lawyers because they get and they can set their preferences at the charge on where they want to be, but it also helps the individual and actually the cases they're putting forward because the AI has helped them create this, that actually the quality of their case. So it solves the problem of actually not having to ask around and you get a really qualified set of statements. So then lawyers can actually get checked as well. So I think it's a super, I mean it's a very basic version, there's gonna be a load of other features, but I think that's the future for people who are thinking about law, they're going to be hopefully going to a marketplace where it's finding a lawyer made simple. And that's something I'm excited about building.

Yeah. And super exciting company. I'm definitely going to have to look a little bit more into that one, Rob. But you know what, on your, on essentially your three points, right, are the billing model, the future of, of tech and integration and the human to human. You know, thinking of the billing model, it's so interesting because you know, for anyone who's not considering moving away from the traditional model, not to say that you have to, but you need to be considering what the alternatives are. You know, we moved to a value based pricing model for the majority of what we do probably five years ago. And you know, it's something that is a trend and it needs to happen. The billable model and the statement of hours that you're working on somebody's file, it promotes inefficiency. Right. It does not give the accountability to the firm to deliver something at a certain value. So, you know, I've worked with an accounting coach, his name is Rob Nixon, best in the world. And one of the things that we first worked on was that billing model. It's like we have to move away from allowing our team to just take their as short a time as they want or as long a time as they want and continue to have to build a client for that. It doesn't make sense. So we need to create something that's a little bit more accountable to our team and also maybe provides more profit margins for us in our business if we do it the right way and we get to win on that. The second part is on the technology and to Rob's point, you know, look at the opportunities that are out there with AI. Love the, the organization that you shared, Rob. But again, anyone who's not thinking of AI and future solutions, not to say that you have to incorporate them, but we have to be aware of them so that you can utilize them. It's not necessarily eliminating jobs or opportunity or industries or anything like that. It's maybe going to allow us to expand the impact that we can create as a professional by utilizing these tools. So don't miss out on, on that opportunity. And the last one, talking about the human to human connection, again, Rob Nixon, who I worked with in the accounting space for years, he talked about being the trusted advisor and that that is where the industry is going. And this is for all professional services working on the relationship and being able to support people with whatever tech that we have or whatever resources we have, but knowing that you're going to be the resource that they want to come to when they have a problem and they know that you can help them solve it. So, Rob, I couldn't agree more with those three things. That was bang on, my friend. Anything you want to add to that?

Well, just. It's clear why you've been so successful. Bob, you mentioned five. You know, you're ahead of the, you know, you're curious. Well, everything you just said that you've got coaches, you're moving your business forward, you're meeting your clients where they're at, you know, and I obviously got the pleasure of hearing your story on my show, but just for people listening, you know, absolutely. There's a reason why you're successful in what you're doing because you're doing everything that, you know, practicing what we're preaching here. And I think it's so important that the only constant in business is change. So we've got to be alive to the fact that, you know, you got to keep growing. And I think sometimes people reach stagnation and certain businesses run out of steam because I think they forget that, you know. And like this is. I heard one of the best quotes from Piers Linney. He's a former Dragon's Den investor, which is Shark Tank. I think that side of the spot. He's become a good friend of mine. He's actually speaking at an event I'm moderating next week with Jack and Ronnie, who was CEO of Clio, formerly of Uber. And Piers said this, he said, AI is not a once in a revolution opportunity. And everyone looked at him blanks like, yes, it is. He's like, no, no, it's a once in a species opportunity. And you just let that land and think how big and impactful because it's of the worst state it's ever going to be as of today. And it's going to get infinitely better and better and better and our understanding and then robotics, everything else around it. So it really is a time to get curious and to learn and to have people around you. So I've really had to get smart in terms of having people like peers as my mentors because I was not an AI expert, right. I'm a novice. And so how am I going to get the heck better if I'm not in school and I have the privilege of a teacher coming to me every day? I've got to go out there proactively if it's Meant to be. It's up to me. I'm a big believer in accountability. I need to go and get new mentors and new people around me as part of my360 board of directors. And so he's been great for that. And then I've selfishly, again, you can pick your spots as a podcast host, Bring in AI people that really know what they're doing, get the nuggets of wisdom, learn, go away, take action, implement. So all of these things matter, but the number one thing is understanding that business is never going to stand still. And if you choose to stand still, then you'll probably be left behind.

Rob Hanna, everybody. Legally Speaking podcast. Rob, I'm so excited to connect in Austin. Thank you so much for coming and hanging out today. It's always a pleasure one. I could listen to you all day, sir. You bring so much insight, but you definitely have a great voice to listen to. It's just, you know, even just hearing you talk, it just, it's making me excited about the opportunities of the future and hopefully everybody else, you know is feeling that same way as well. Rob, if people were looking to get a hold of you, what is the best way to track you down?

Yeah, definitely LinkedIn. I'm a big advocate for LinkedIn, so just. Robert Hannah on LinkedIn. Give me a follow there. Drop me a message. Always happy to hear from people. Or if you, if something sparked a thought today or, or a collaboration, don't send me a week high. Really like that, like, specific is terrific. The more terrific you can make it, the better I'm going to probably get hooked to respond to you. I'm very happy to see that. And if people want to check out the show Legal Spoon podcast, feel free to do so legallyspeanpodcast.com on Apple and Spotify. But Bob, I've been a big, big fan of your show and it's a genuine pleasure being here. And I just want to say one final thing. That is my number one quote that I always stick to. The magic you're looking for is in the work you're avoiding. I think if you can really understand that from one thing you've heard today that's maybe sparked that, Go and take action on it. Stop avoiding it. Go and take action on it.

Awesome, guys. This has been the Wealthy Entrepreneur podcast with my guest, Rob Hanna. If there's anything that you've listened to today that you've appreciated, leave a comment, leave a question. We're happy to get back if there's anyone who wants to connect with Rob and I can connect you so that you can share your message out. Please feel free to reach out to me directly or put a comment in. Make sure you like the podcast. We want to make sure that when next week's episode comes out, that you're already on the list and you're getting access to that. If there's anything that Rob or I have talked about today where you feel like it would benefit someone who you know, make sure you share this with them. We are. And I, I'm sure I can speak for Rob and myself. We're on a mission to empower the world with information so that we can make positive of change. And if we can do that through this podcast, we're happy to do that. So thank you again, everybody, for joining me this week. Can't wait to see you next week as well.