Numbers Beyond the Classroom: Teachers' Journey to Financial Empowerment with Kyle Pearce & Jon Orr

One of those things that we've learned along the way is sometimes, like, knowing where our roles are or where our strengths lie. And Kyle was always, like, this great visionary.

There is nothing more empowering than jamming your own calendar to the gills and knowing that you are the one who did it. One of the biggest challenges entering truly into this entrepreneurial world was that I have this primal question of, like, am I secure?

All right, so, Kyle and John, really great to have you guys here, and it's been awesome to connect with you guys. I know I got the opportunity to be on your podcast a little bit earlier. Great to hear a little bit about you guys and what you are up to, which is incredible. But what I didn't get to hear was a little bit more about the background of how you guys got started. I have some context for how this is an interesting story, so I don't know which one of you wants to. To jump in and start that conversation, but I'd love for you to share with our audience how you got to where you are today.

Awesome. Awesome. Thanks so much for having us there, Bob.

I'll.

I'll run with it first here. And ultimately, we are entrepreneurs through and through, but we did not start that way. We actually. Our podcast was originally branded the Invested Teachers, because, yes, we went to school to become teachers, high school math teachers, and we spent quite a bit of time in the classroom. And actually, I feel like we took an entrepreneurial approach, even though at the time we didn't realize it, but we were trying to figure out, like, if. If you think about this, Bob, I know in your backstory you shared with us on our podcast was that you actually were going through and you were planning to become a teacher, so maybe you can relate. We came out as math geeks, math teachers, and John and I didn't know each other at the time. He was in a different school district near, you know, out in Chatham area. I was in the Windsor, Essex area. And we both had very similar experiences. After we met later in life and that we came into the classroom, we just sort of thought that everyone was going to like math. I don't know if you've ever been in a math classroom.

Big assumption.

Yeah, exactly. I'm like. I'm like, how. How stupid am I? Like, why did I think that kids were going to actually enjoy this? So we spent a lot of time and we sort of had to, you know, face ourselves in the mirror and kind of look at ourselves and say, like, we can, like, keep trying to do this over and over again, try to do it the same way that it was done back when we were in school and it worked for us. We'll call it, you know, semisorta, and just have to deal with the fact that, like, more than half of our students don't want to be there, are visibly not enjoying the experience, and we're going to have to do this for 30 years. So we, we sort of took this entrepreneurial path in education to try to do that better and actually had some success, then began sharing it through our consulting business in the education space and, you know, at the same time started building a real estate portfolio. And at some point we sort of recognized that, oh my gosh, we're actually not math teachers, we're, we're entrepreneurs. Like, what are we doing in here? You know, and, and we love the process, but ultimately, fast forward, you know, a couple decades later and, and here we are in, in the business world, just like you are.

Yeah. John, what, what was missed in that story?

You know, like, I think, Kyle, you, you've, you've covered, you covered it pretty quickly there. You know, it was kind of like, hey, this is, this is exactly the way we did it. I, I, I don't, you know, I don't think I need to really embellish, you know, all the little stories along the way, but I think, like, I think Kyle kind of recognized early on that we were like, building something. And I think in, he kind of like tugged me along, you know, grabbed me by the shirt collars and said, like, I think we're, we're going here. And I think it was like a, a vision that he, you know, he's always had, he's, he's always, we always kid ourselves. We've, you know, we've been learners along the way for, for business for years now. And, and because, you know, we've been doing the, the, the entrepreneurial thing in the math space, so the math teacher space, like training math teachers for over 10 years. So, and like, we had, we had built, built that up over that, that time. And what Kyle said, it kind of led into, like, put some of this, these funds that we now have, like, we put them in real estate. We're going to do this with this. And how do we manage our money? This is where, kind of where we are now and how we are teaching that to other people. But, but, you know, I think we've always, we've always been lifelong learners, and one of those things that we've learned along the way is, is, is sometimes like Knowing where our, our roles are or where our strengths lie. And Kyle was always like this great, you know, visionary. So like, if you think about Gino Wickman and Traction and you know, Rocket Fuel, you know, with the outline between, you know, the vis. The integrator, it was, it was kind of like Kyle said, we didn't really know each other before math education. And we kind of discovered, you know, hey, you're doing that, I'm doing this. Why don't we team up and do some of these things together? And it was a nat. It was, it really was like a natural fit where he's a visionary. But I relished in the, the day to day, the, the little, the details. Let's get this done. Let's work on this project. Let's, let's check this off the list where he's the big thinker going, like, we're going in this direction, but I don't want to do all of this stuff and I don't really want to know what's all this stuff, you know, or been. And it's like, okay, we'll make sure we get this done. So it's like that part of our partnership has been, you know, strengthened along the way because it wasn't until I think we read Rocket Fuel, we're like, this is describing us. And we didn't know that this is like what good business, like, good business partnerships look like in other. Other instances. And it was like, I can't even believe that, like we were lucky enough to like have two people. Like, I can imagine that if we are both visionaries or both integrators, we wouldn't be here. Right. Like, it's just the, the str. Structure of the way, you know, our two personalities have jived together over the years.

Mine, you wouldn't need each other as much, you know, for that compliment. Rocket Fuel is probably the, the highest recommended book that I give out because most of the time I'm dealing with the visionary who's going, oh my God, I need to find the person who can help support me. And I go read the book.

I've got all these ideas I never wrote down.

Yeah. You know, and that's interesting. We, you know, our theme for the year in our company is the boring year. Because I needed that to be a theme so that everyone thought I wasn't going to continue to blow things up all the time. So. Yeah. And they're all in denial. They're like, we're waiting for the boring year to just absolutely turn into chaos.

Yeah. When's the shoe drop?

Yeah, exactly. You know what though, guys? Like, interesting path to get here. You know, fairly unique for you guys, I would say. Man, were those kids ever lucky to get you into their classrooms for the period of time that you were in there because wow, would I have ever loved any of the teachers in, you know, the public school system to be able to embrace entrepreneurship and to even have that, you know, as part of a vision for yourselves or a feeling or you know, even the outside of school system. I just never had that and it's so awesome. I'm sure you guys have had such a dramatic impact on so many students lives. So kudos to you guys for, for being in that space, but to also finding yourself because there's a lot of times where people just never really find their passion of what it is that they really want to pursue, that sort of, you know, the spirit of their soul that drives, you know, their purpose for a lifetime. So congratulations on finding that path even though you went at it a different, an indirect route. But question for you guys, like, because of that transition, you know, what were some of the challenges that you found going from, you know, a unionized government organization with very sort of rigid times. Here's where you show up, here's where you go home. This is kind of where you need to be at all those times to moving into entrepreneurship. Talk. Let's talk about some of the challenging things as part of that transition.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know what the structure, and I'm guessing here I'm going to put words in John's mouth, but I'm guessing like John loves structure, right? So he was probably like, you know what, the bell is going to go off at 8:17. And like he probably loved that aspect of it. And to be honest, some parts of that are really helpful because you don't have to think, you know, you get to, hey, you get up at the same time, you do the same routines, you get out the door, you go do your thing. But I will tell you, there is nothing more empowering than jamming your own calendar to the gills and knowing that you are the one who did it. You know. So like all these people say, like, it looks like you're working harder now than you used to work when you were, you know, in education, like doing that sort of work. And I'm like a hundred percent, I am. But it's empowered, like feeling empowered to be able to decide that, hey, Bob, we're gonna record right now at this time because it's our agenda. There's something really empowering about it. But I will say for me, one of the biggest challenges entering truly into this entrepreneurial world was that I have this primal question of, like, am I secure? And, and you know, if you've read the book, you know, seven, Seven Primal Questions, I think it's called. Everyone has at least a main primal question. And for me, it's about financial security. Whether it's how I was raised, whether it was something that happened. My mom dropped me when I was a baby. I don't know why, but it's like, for whatever reason, I want to always make sure that, like, without a shadow of a doubt, that financially that my life, my family is secure. So it made it extremely difficult for me to even consider stepping away knowing that we had a really successful thing already happening because we like to call it, you know, it's like cutting the golden handcuffs and saying like, you're going from T4 knowing exactly what you're getting. In the teacher world, it was like knowing that you were getting a raise for the first 10 years, you start really low, but knowing next year's better, next year's better, and that there's this wonderful golden pension down the road that's a really, like, that, that really comforts a guy who's got a primal question like, am I secure? So that was a big, big leap of, I don't want to say faith, but just more or less having to overcome that fear, which having done it and looking back at it and going like, holy smokes, I can't believe that I allowed that sort of essentially hinder my potential given that, you know, we had been doing business for so long.

For sure, you know, and I think for, for me, I think a piece of, of the challenge of moving from teaching all day long, you know, and then moving into, to this world in being an entrepreneur and working on your business full time. And Kyle, you're right, like structuring your day is, is one of those benefits and thinking about that is, is really empowering. But for me, I think that one of the huge challenges was in, and it still is, is like, I think we talked about a little bit about this on our, on our podcast with, with you, Bob, is kind of the identity, you know, like, like how we've self identified in the past and grappling with that identity, like, like I was a math, like a high school Math teacher for 19 years and you know, those last 10, we were doing both things at the same time. So we were still like, I was still in the classroom. Kyle was still in the, in, in his role as a, as a consultant in his district and in the side hustle. You know, we're, we're building the consultation business. You know, we're, we're building this business where we're providing wealth management, you know, wealth architecture. And, and it was for me like officially stepping away from being a teacher because it's, because we've now done that. Like it's, it's kind of like there it goes, the handcuffs are off. It's, it's, there's no going, you know, Well, I guess there could be going back, but it's like there's, there's no going back now. Right? And it's like, I think for me it was, it was a struggle to be like I'm no longer a math teacher. You know, I'm, I'm something different. What am I like, what it is, my identity. It's been so long tied up in that, in that world and I, you know, my, my, my father is a math teacher and you know, I've just grown up in that world the whole time and going like this is what I was going to do. You know, I was going to be a math teacher, I'm a math teacher. And, and just realizing that it's like that's not, I'm a, I'm a business owner, I'm an entrepreneur. And, and sometimes that sounds scary. It was like for me just grappling with this reality that, that I'm, I'm not this math teacher anymore. And is that okay? You know, is that okay? Because I think a lot of us kind of like have to make that leap. Like, like I know that your, your history was like you kind of went into being an entrepreneur right away and, and for, for us it wasn't. And I think there's a lot of people who are, become business owners, especially if you're the side hustle person, be like I, I now moved into this, like this is now my full time role. I wonder if other people are also kind of grappling with like this identity, this identity kind of issue.

Let me ask you this John, because you had a family and I don't know what your mom did as well, but dad, as a teacher, was there ever, you know, this pressure from family, like how, how would you give this up? You know, and that's it. And I only bring this up and I don't know the answer, but I bring this up because I see that often, right where sociology, I didn't Enjoy it when I was in school, but man, I've learned a lot about it post education, about generational shifts and when we've grown up in a particular way, it becomes really challenging to break out of that mold. Especially when your parents are, have had a fairly successful life and lived a good life and now all of a sudden it's. So why, why do you think that that wasn't good enough for you and challenging? So love to hear your thoughts on that.

Yeah, for sure. We've talked about this on our podcast too, because I think even though it's only been a year that I made this, this shift, right. And so, so like I said, we were doing 10 years without it, without with doing both at the same time. I think it was easier because, because I, I did grapple with this. Like you have to like now justify your choice to someone else. You know, it feels like, oh, I have to, I have to tell my dad that I'm not gonna have this pension that he has and I have to like moved to something else. Kyle and I have been kind of, you know, planning our financial futures for a long time now. And I've deviated from my parents pathway and their parents pathways and you know, all of our friends are teachers and it's like we deviated from that pathway when we went down the whole real estate route, you know, and like, and start to invest in different things and start to kind of like manage my money differently along the way. That part itself, a long time ago was not the norm. And explaining that to my parents, it was an early, you know, an early piece that, that was in small chunks. So it wasn't like a major shift in that to explain or justify. It was like probably to them it felt like a natural progression. They could see the writing on the wall that, you know, this was probably coming. I still think that they don't understand, you know, anything that I do and how it's legal to make money, you know, without having a full time job and a T4 job and having a pen. Like, what do you mean? Like, is that illegal? You know, are you allowed to do that? Are you allowed to like charge people money for, you know, what you do? So it was, I think it's a small progressions along the way for me and Kyle.

Different question for you. But as part of this evolution, I know for me, especially when I was early on, I had, we talked about identity here a little bit, but I had this element of imposter syndrome that hit me where it was like, who do you think you are in doing this. And I know for me, I've always, you know, preached this, and I believe in this strongly. Getting in rooms where there's so many people that you can learn from from their experiences. And I know very early on I was pushing the status of rooms I was in and really hadn't accomplished anything and had massive imposter syndrome as part of that. Have. Did you have any of that at all?

Well, you know what? I think every educator, so anyone, if you're an educator, it's probably more side hustlers or people that have moved on from education and into entrepreneurship, listening to this podcast. But every teacher who walks into a classroom, especially on the first day of school, is an imposter because it's like you walked in and supposedly you know how to teach. And the reality is, is when you go to school, like, they don't teach you how to be an effective teacher. They don't teach you how to be an effective speaker. They don't, you know, teach you how to, you know, actually engage someone, not just behaviorally be meaning like, you know, get the. Get the strap out and, you know, do this walking around the room. So they wait, what year did you teach it?

Yeah, how. How long ago did you start, Kyle?

Geez, I'm old. I'm old. What do you want? You know, but. But, you know, like, it's like, truly cognitively engaging, right? Like, for learning. And that was something that along the way, we sort of like, figured that out. And by figured it out, you never figure it out.

You.

You're just further along that journey. And, you know, and then we got into, you know, keynoting in the education space, and we got, you know, so it was like every opportunity that we had along this journey was essentially overcoming just kind of like what you're describing, like, was giving us an opportunity to overcome that imposter syndrome, because we were going to go in front of a bigger room to talk in front of. And I think the scariest part is when you're talking in front of a room where you don't know everyone in the room, so you're like, there must be someone in here who has more experience than what, you know, what we have, but it's overcoming that and saying, you know what? I'm gonna. I'm gonna share what I can share, and I'm also not gonna pretend that we have all the answers, but we're gonna share what did work for us and how you might be able to apply it yourself. And we've sort of carried that philosophy and that learning along with us into our businesses over, you know, this past decade, and we continue to do it now, even in the, you know, corporate wealth management side of things, where, you know, I think people are a little shocked. They get on a call and, you know, we're. We're actually trying to help teach them something, and we're not there to, you know, sort of sell them something or to, you know, force them down a rabbit hole. It's. It's just helping. And. And I think through that entire path along the way, you start to recognize that as long as you're vulnerable enough and as long as you're not there trying to exude a significant amount of confidence, you need confidence to be vulnerable. So don't get me wrong on that, but it's like you're not there trying to pretend and trying to, you know, sort of sell this idea, like, you know, more than the person that you're chatting with. All the other things kind of fall into place, and you start to recognize that, you know what, I'm not impotent. Like, I'm not faking it. I'm actually coming to this from where I am, and I'm going to do my best to help that person on the other end of the line. And ultimately, I think the most successful business owners out there, the most successful entrepreneurs, figure out those pieces along the way and different parts in the journey.

Mm. It is challenging. I know I've been in front of a couple fairly large audiences going, what am I doing here? But. But knowing, right, that you've got some form of wisdom to share and what you have, people are wanting to hear, that's why you're in that space is. It is challenging. And it, you know, for me, with a lot of entrepreneurs, it's like, man, putting yourself in positions where you need to grow and you need to fail and you need to be challenged, you know, is a. It's a wonderful opportunity and experience on the entrepreneurial journey. I want to ask you guys this. So obviously we've talked about a transition out of education. Fill me in. What are you guys up to right now?

I guess we're doing. We're kind of doing two things. One thing a little bit more than the other. But we still, you know, we are running multiple businesses and strengthening those. Those businesses. So one arm of the. Of the business is continually. And this is where we're. We're kind of adding to our wealth in that the revenue generated from one business kind of spills into adding to other assets. That we have. So in one arm, I'm doing a lot of the heavy lifting in consultation in the math land. We are consulting with math leaders in their math programming, and how do we shape that and how do we help them get better results in math class? How do we teach math more effectively? So that's one arm Kyle is handling. You know, his living in his expertise, which is, you know, thinking about corporate wealth management and doing what he just said. He's teaching people along the way of like, what has worked for us. You know, what strategies are we using to build our wealth and think about our futures and safeguard our loved ones and safeguard our assets? You know, we always kind of think about where, how we want to build wealth, but a lot of time we're trying to think about that, but at the same time is how do we. How do we kind of protect the capital that we've got already? You know, like, how do we. How do we not only do, you know one, but make sure we do the other at the same time? Because, you know, I think that that can be a risk. You know, we, we just recently, Kylie and I were kind of brainstorming of like, you know, a lot of times it's like we continually add to this. Like, think of it as like this, this house that we're adding to is like, let's add an asset, let's add an asset, let's add an asset. But how can we add an asset but at the same time bring the cement or the foundation up so that at no time does that cement kind of ever go lower? It's like that can't crash down? Because a lot of times it's like, let's, let's buy an asset. Let's take this, you know, we got some extra funds. Let's put it over here and let's put it maybe an index funds or let's put it in the stock market. It's like, well, there's some level of risk over there, but can we put it somewhere that actually builds this foundation up so that we add to that foundation, but it allows us to get into those assets. So we're doing a lot of assisting, teaching, learning along the way and kind of looking at those two arms. Kyle?

Yeah, no, I think you did a great job there. And I think ultimately, at the end of the day, I think who we tend to serve most, or at least who I'm serving most in the corporate wealth management side is business owners. Because, you know, much like yourself, Bob, like people have their head down and sometimes you have to kind of be forced to, like, lift your head up a little bit and go, you know, like, we're, we're doing really well here. But like, what's really happening, like, what, what is happening on the taxation side? You know, have we done that effectively on our podcast, Bob, you were talking about some, you know, some of the, the things that frustrate you when, you know, there's this confusion about whether a corporation should be opened or not be opened. And, you know, there's all of those things going on. And for a business owner, they're going like, I know my queen bee role. A lot of people don't articulate it as such, but their queen bee role is doing what they do in their business to generate more revenue and more income. But then after that, a lot of times there's not a lot of, you know, attention paid to, like, what's happening. You know, a lot of people assume that every dollar that comes in the door actively in the company is, is taxed at, you know, 12.2% right here in Ontario, or, you know, slightly varying rates in different provinces. But then what happens after that? Should I be taking that money out? Should I be draining the corporation? Because, you know, that's what I thought I was supposed to do. Should I let it sit in there? Does it go under the mattress? Like, what do I do? And how do I find, I guess, the right fit for me so that I can maximize my wealth in order to help me achieve my actual goal, like the dream outcome that I have for my family and my future. And that's really a lot of the, you know, sort of the, the thinking that we help business owners do. And, and we do it in conjunction with amazing folks like the accountants, for example, or like their financial advisors who are involved as well. And we just try to help them with strategy and of course, implementing tools that might help them further along to preserve wealth, but then also ensure that they're not gifting too much to, you know, that little place we call the cra.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, nobody wants to give any there. Interesting. It sounds like you've maybe listened to Mike Michalowitz all in book as well with a couple references there. So great book like that as well. And actually their CEO of their program is coming in and coming on the podcast as well in the next coming weeks. So, so excited that too. But exciting to hear this guys. And, and the evolution. Obviously it's been happening for 10 plus years, but to be, you know, both feet in at this point. Would love to Hear. I know it kind of started with the real estate investment side with you guys, from what I understand. So love to understand maybe what that journey has looked like, like, and how you started to build up a real estate portfolio.

Yeah, I love it. I'll. I guess I'll start there because I sort of, as John mentioned earlier alluded to, I. I sort of dragged him along. John was very, you know, in the same mindset as his dad. Right.

I'm his first student.

Yeah, exactly. So early in this process, you know, as we started our active business, I was sort of like, so, like, what you gonna do? Like, you know, with this extra money.

I wanted to spend my money. I wanted to spend it.

Casino Windsor, no new car coming my way.

You know, I. I needed. I needed an education first.

Yeah. He needed a frugal guy like me to say, no, you're not. You're not doing that. You're gonna do some of this stuff. So. For myself, like, even I remember telling my mom when I was, you know, 17, somewhere around there, before university, saying, like, hey, I want to. I want to buy this property. You know, I didn't know it was called, you know, investment, you know, properties or anything. I was just like, I want to, like, rent it. You know, I had a buddy whose dad had a rental property. I was, like, intrigued by this idea. Never did any of that. Went to university, came back to it, started teaching, and it was like, as I was aggressively paying down my mortgage. Because that's what you're supposed to do, right? That's what John's dad said to do, and that's what my parents did. You know, I'm aggressively paying down this mortgage, and then I. I start reading a book on a vacation. Now the only time I ever read a real book instead of listening to it is when I'm stuck on a beach somewhere, and I have nothing else to do. So I'm like, all right. I read this book, rich dad, Poor dad, and I'm like, I'm the. I'm the. The poor dad in the book. I'm. I'm the teacher in the book. It's an actual teacher who is essentially doing exactly what I was doing. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm having an epiphany here. Right? So all of a sudden, I. I kind of reframe my mind. And just so happens that we were coming off the back of, you know, the 2008 financial crisis, and I started looking in the U.S. and that's sort of where I began the journey. This was before I even knew John. So I was a teacher. I was trying to figure out math education, and I was buying real estate at the same time. That's sort of how we began that journey and then eventually had families started this active business, and I didn't have time to research outside of the area. So we started buying properties locally here in Windsor, Essex. So that's kind of primarily where our portfolio lies. Now we would call ourselves primarily real estate investors simply because, you know, I'm that, you know, secure guy. Like, I'm. I'm like, is that company going to be there or not next year? I don't know in the stock market, But I do know that there will be a door I can go knock on that I own. It just might have a roof that, you know, caved in or whatever I need to do to fix it up along the way.

Yeah. And so what have been maybe some of the challenges with the real estate portfolio and building it up? Because I know I mentioned to you guys earlier, I have a real estate portfolio as well, and all of those investments do not involve any of my time or attention. And that's the way that fits me because, yeah, I don't know. I'm not. I'm not built to be a landlord. I don't want to have those conversations. I don't want to be on call. I'm too involved in other things. That. That's just not my thing. What has worked for you guys in building real estate? Maybe. What hasn't?

Yeah, no, I. I completely agree. Like, I want to be the person that. That kind of, like, doesn't get the call. It's like, I'm here. I'm, you know, I. I've. I've bought this property, but I don't have to do the managing. And, And I think where the struggles along the way is, the learning curve that's needed is like. Because it's like, when you get into real estate investing, is it, do I have to be the landlord or like. Or how do I assemble my team? Like, because having the right team is. Is the make or break because it'll allow you to become, you know, this person. Like, you're saying Bob is like. It's like, I don't have to really think about it after. I don't have to think about it in the nighttime. I know I'm not going to get a call. I just get the check in the mail or, you know, I. I make a couple decisions. But where the struggle, I think, for us is, is we early made that team. And, and I know that, Kyle, I think for. For a little bit, you, you know, you managed your own properties. You had a, you know, three guys that were also as kind of partners along the way that had their own specialties. So that. That made a lot of sense. But where the struggle ended up, I think being was. Was really kind of teaching the project, you know, the property managers on. On how to be property managers. You know, like, there's. There's instances where it's like, you think that you're hiring one property management company, and they're like, hey, this is done. Check the team is in place. I get to sleep at night. And then all of a sudden, now you're like, things that don't go the way that you think they would go or you wouldn't handle it this way. And now you're. You're almost like, okay, I'm managing this property manager instead of managing my property, which is scalable. And that's why we stuck with it, because we can go, okay, well, we can teach this property manager how to. How to manage it the way we would manage it, because it sounds like they need to. But you know that we can continually add to that, right? We continually add to that, right? Like, we can go, hey, next property come in. It's a little bit easier because the systems, the standard operating, you know, the outstanding operating procedures are in place. And we just have to, like, be the manager, you know, the same way you're running your business, probably. But, you know, Bobby's like, these are the things I have to do on a regular basis. And then when we add a team member, it's like, what standard operating procedures need to go in place. Now we're actively being more of a manager in that case. And that's where we are now. It's like. But we had to create those systems along the way, for sure.

So we've talked about real estate as a way that you guys have. Have explored in building some of your wealth. I also know we were chatting a little bit earlier about some of the other approaches to wealth accumulation and, and maybe some available insurance products that can help facilitate maybe the more sophisticated investor in accumulating wealth. Kyle, do you want to take a stab at maybe where some of your strategies would jump in and support people in that space?

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, it's interesting because all of our businesses have essentially evolved from solving our own problems and then turning them into businesses, right? So if you think about that from the math consulting space, you know, we didn't come out of university thinking, you know, one day I'd like to build a math consulting business. You know, we, we solved or tried to solve our problem in the classroom. And then we were like, other people could benefit from this. And then we created online courses and, you know, actual mentorship programs for district leaders. The same's true here on this corporate wealth advisory side. So when we do corporate wealth management, basically what we're doing is we're just trying to help teach all of the learning that we did along the way. And really what, what it comes down to is that when you have in particular, I mean, this can help on the personal side as well. And I'm sure you'd agree, you know, people are all their tax free buckets, you know, tax free savings or RSPs, they're exploding and, you know, they want to continue and then they want to start thinking legacy. You know, some of these can apply as well in that world. But on the corporate side, we run into some issues when we earn money in our corporation, and then we have to figure out, do we take it out? Do I need to take it out for lifestyle, or was that money going to get reinvested in something anyway? And the big question is, like, what's better? Do I chop my investment at its legs and invest it outside of my company? A lot of people will chop it. So they take it out. They take, you know, they, they take it as a salary or dividend, depending on how much it is, and then they lock it up.

Take a tax hit.

Yeah, take a tax hit. And then they throw it up in maybe the RSP and they go up. We're good. Well, I'm like, well, you kind of took it from one jail, you put it in another jail, and then you still got to get it out of that jail later. So maybe we're ed, maybe we're not. It really depends. So for guys like us with real estate, you know, we're going, man, we've got real estate, we've got passive income inside of our corporation. We've got to think of a way that we can actually solve this problem. Because, you know, when we take money, passive income tax being over 50% here in Ontario, I think our friends in Alberta, you, you guys are so lucky. It's only 46%, I think it is, right? Which is like, yay, we all, you know, we, we at least get to keep half of our money. But ultimately, like, that was an issue for me. And being a fact finder, you know, I'm the type of person that I have to go down the rabbit hole to at least exhaust all my options. And I, I literally interviewed so many people around Canada to try to help me with different tools that might help us to mitigate not only like the tax issue, but then to also give us some strategies later for us to potentially get some of that benefit on the personal side without having to take that huge tax hit. And it really did lead me down. You know, permanent life insurance was one of these tools that I'm, I'm just going to call it a tool, some call it investment, you know, but it's really a tool that when you put it inside of a company, when you buy it inside of a company, there's so many creative strategies you can do that are out of the box, really helpful, but on the, you know, higher end or more advanced end can be massively helpful to allow you to essentially service your lifestyle without losing net worth because you're losing a bunch of money to taxation. So we do a lot with those types of strategies. So anything from the basic strategy but then also on to hey, using leverage and actually creating investment strategies, not tax avoidance strategies in order for us to, to help more business owners, you know, essentially fund their lifestyle while their net worth continues to grow at the same time.

And definitely some few highlights for me using insurance related products as an investment strategy, one being that the growth inside an insurance policy is tax free. So I like to think of the insurance products that have an investment component almost like the corporate tax free savings account.

We call it the unlimited tfsa.

Yeah, and again, you know, thinking of that as only paying the business tax up front and then using that larger sort of pre tax value to get it in there and growing faster from a wealth accumulation standpoint is such a great idea, whatever it is, but you know, life insurance products just seem to be able to grow tax free along the way as well. You know, the one maybe downside that I would say related to life insurance products from my perspective is, you know, they are based on life insurance and in some instances, you know, some of those payouts only come when something bad happens.

That's why I put mine on John's life and not mine.

Exactly, exactly. Well, and truthfully, like I know it's, you know, we laugh at that, but you know, there's a lot of benefit to putting insurance policies like this type of vehicle on lives that are maybe a little less risky than our own, you know, and getting access to lower insurance premiums while still building that portfolio. So lots of goodness in there. And it sounds like you guys have had an incredible journey of discovering some of these things and the fact that you continue to share with other people is, is amazing. Let's talk about one thing and one area of sharing that I know we have a mutual interest which is sharing financial wisdom with the next generation. I know for me, I was on breakfast television talking about this a couple years ago. I work with an organization locally that, you know, focuses on financial literacy for the youth, which is Junior achievement. Would love to hear from you guys about the importance of teaching kids about wealth and financial management.

Sure, sure. Yeah, I get, I guess, you know, that hits our hearts being, you know, math teachers and, and I think, you know, having. I have three, three daughters, you know, they're in their teenage years and, and I, I actively think about their financial futures because I think I, you know, coming from, even though my father was a math teacher, very traditional math teacher. So like what Kyle said, you know, he viewed himself as the, as the dad in the Robert Kiyosaki's book Rich Dad, Poor Dad.

Yeah.

And it's like my dad was that guy.

A little side note. So I know I mentioned to you guys I worked with Tony Robbins. Well, his right hand man was Keith Cunningham who actually is described as the dad.

Oh yeah.

Of Rich Dad, Poor dad, which was interesting anyway. Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, so my dad was like actually that dad. And whereas I, I felt like I didn't have the education I needed to do the things that we're doing now. Like it was like these, everything that I've learned along the way was like just not the norm.

Right.

So, so I, I think it is, it is extremely important to kind of relay these same ideas, you know, these new ideas so that our, our children have, you know, a sense of ownership in, in how they want, you know, and see their, their futures around money, you know. And unfortunately, even though we're, we were math teachers for so long, it's, it's not taught in schools like we think it's taught in schools, but it's like it's not, it's not, it's not. And it makes sense. You've got, you've got an army of teachers who were like us and probably were educated like us, which means they all were like my dad, you know, and they only thought, go for the pension, get your T4 job. Like don't, don't think about how to manage your money outside of that realm. And we don't teach entrepreneurship really in schools. Like you could say there's a class on entrepreneurship, but you've also got a teacher who probably didn't live in that world, you know, teaching that class the, the ideas and the, and, and the, you know, terms and, and, and what it looks like. But we have to as parents and, you know, help our own children see that they. There's a different world around money. And we have to expose them to making choices, you know, giving them the autonomy to kind of think about what is it that their goals are in life and how. What are the tools that we could utilize to get to those goals. And, and I think that's the biggest takeaway I want my, my kids to have is, is this, like, I don't want them to kind of like always go, I have to do it this way. You know, I want them to continually think about what is, like, what are my options and are those the best options or are there other options? Like, I, I need them to, to be those thinkers and deciders and like risk takers in a way. And, and the risk taking is more, is not about, like, where my money goes, but my risk taking is about thinking that I don't have to do it the way someone tells me to do it. I have the ability, I have the understanding. I can find out the understanding or I can learn. I'd rather them have that skill about where their money could go than say, this is the way to do it, you know, and, or, or follow, you know, someone's advice to do it. I want you to be a thinker instead of a follower.

Love that. Kyle, what's your take on this? I'm sure you have some too.

There's so many things there. You know, John, you kind of gave me another thought. Is like thinking beyond that and going, okay, absolutely. We need our, our obviously our younger generation to have that financial foundation. But one of the challenges is of course, not only from an education standpoint and teachers, but also parents and others out there. The reality is that there's so many people, so many players in the financial industry in general that literally are giving advice to do things, and they have not yet done any of those things themselves, which is fundamentally a challenge because, you know, they're probably doing their best. John and I actually recently recorded an episode on this where, you know, a lot of people kind of play it as though like a financial person that works at the big bank or the insurance guy or the whoever guy is trying to intentionally mislead you. But I actually think it's something deeper and I think it's that there's so many people out there that are doing this work without actually having a clear, holistic understanding of the big picture. So they might be giving you the best they've got, but that might not necessarily be the best for you and it might not be the whole picture. So I think one of the pieces that's really important, so be it entrepreneurs who are listening and business owners, or if it's just someone who is in a T4 job, is that really getting educated and making sure that you have a nice, well rounded understanding you don't have to be an expert in all of it, is going to be really important for you to really know whether the person that you're working with is able to help you with what you truly need or truly want for your future. And, you know, there's just not enough of that yet. So if we can work on those, that younger generation, then hopefully in time we'll have more people in these roles that can kind of give more of a holistic picture. And I think, you know, that's something that we try to offer the people that we do work with is we try to give them a clear picture as how it works. And based on what you're saying, this may be a good fit or maybe this isn't a good fit for you, and maybe you want to head down that path. So just making sure that it's clear because there is no one size fits all, even though we all would rather that be the case where it's like, I could just do one meeting with the financial guy and like, just make all my problems go away. It's just, it just doesn't work like that. So if you want a really good outcome, you're going to have to invest at least some time and potentially some effort with someone who you can trust along the way.

Absolutely. And before I ask how people could maybe learn more from your journey and where they can find you, I just want to share this. I get this meme every year, this time of year being tax season, and every single year it's from the same person. And it says, I'm so glad I spent three years learning about parallelograms now that I have to pay to get my taxes filed. And I have no idea how to do it. And I always laugh at it every year. And you know, part of me is like, man, if there was just some little financial management of how to use a credit card, how to mortgages work, how budgets work, how taxes get filed, you know, wouldn't we just be in a better system?

So to tell you the truth here, you know, inside that.

You made that meme. Did you? Yeah.

I was going to say the answer to your taxes is in a parallelogram. You just don't know it yet. We.

You didn't go far enough, you know, but, but this is the unfortunate part, right, is, is if you came out of school and you did the advanced stream or you did the academic stream, you know, you didn't get that education. Because I think the way it's structured is they think you're gonna figure it out, you know, like, you've got the skills enough to like you. You should be, you know, you, you've learned how to learn a little bit. You should be able to figure that out if you want to and where. And I'm not saying that this is the other way, but, you know, the other streams, specifically the workplace stream, which is a stream you didn't go through. It's not a stream that we went through. There are, you know, there are multiple classes that teach those things, and it's because they're preparing them to. Like, you're gonna have to learn this because, you know, that's what you need to know. You know, and it's, it's unfortunate that we don't put that, you know, how to like, manage your. Like, it's, it's in the grade nine curriculum right now. So the grade nine curriculum has more financial planning. It has more bud. Budgeting and how to manage a budget. Like that's new in the last two years, you know, and, and it's not a lot because the teacher's like, how do I do that? How do I teach that? Right. Like, I don't, I haven't taught that before.

I don't know how to do that myself. Right.

And, but, but it's in say, say the grade 11 workplace class, the grade 12 workplace class. But, but not, not high level. It's just kind of a, it's kind of a, you know, a surface level understanding of how your taxes work. But yeah, it should be blended like we should have. You're right. It should be like part of, you know, the work, you know, the learning that we do. I think they just assume that you're going to figure it out if you really wanted it.

Well, and I think this, it gives an opportunity for people like us to go out and share that knowledge and inspire those who are looking to become aware and to know what's available and to help give them a little bit of guidance. So on that note, if anyone were looking to track you guys down. I know you have a podcast, but what's the best way for people to find you?

Awesome. Well, because you're listening to a podcast, I would say on the Canadian Wealth Secrets podcast, we also can be found on the web, canadianwealthsecrets.com and we always say, if you listen to an episode of the podcast, we hope and we'd like to say, we promise that you'll get at least one wealth secret that you can pull and take with you and apply into your world. And of course, on our website, canadianwealthsecrets.com you can book a chat with us to, you know, to kind of go down the rabbit hole with you and give you something that you can take action on in your business investments or on your personal side.

Amazing. Well, guys, I gotta say, it's been a pleasure to hang out with you guys multiple times today, which is great. But to share your experience, your story, some of the challenges facing, you know, going from one career to moving into entrepreneurship. Inspiring. To so many, I'm sure. Appreciate your time and we'll make sure that all your links are included in here as well. Anyone wanting to connect with Kyle and John, please do so. This has been the Wealthy Entrepreneur podcast, guys. It's an absolute pleasure to hang out with you every single week. Make sure if you like this episode, give us a like, give us a follow. We've got another episode coming out next week. If you have someone that you know would benefit from the information that's been shared today, please share it with them, tag them, leave comments. What would you like to hear more of from us? We're happy to make sure that we deliver on that. Thank you so much for listening, guys. It's been a pleasure. This is a wealthy entrepreneur. Have a great day.

Thanks, Bob.

Thanks, Bob. Take care.