Strategic Wealth Planning for Doctors and Dentists: A Guide to Tax-Efficient Retirement

Professionals, especially in the healthcare industry. They're committed and dedicated their entire life to serving others right, helping impact them, helping them improve their health even better.

In my book, I have 20 questions in the first chapter designed for the doctor to ask their existing financial planner questions to determine is this financial planner really looking out for my best interest or do they have conflicts of interest? And I build bulletproof financial plans. And what I mean by that is you can throw any what if scenario at the plan and it will not only thrive, but survive. Doctors don't see themselves as business owners. Dentists do.

Good day and welcome to the Wealthy Entrepreneur Podcast. I am your host, Bob Govro. It is so good to have you with us here today. Listen, I'm actually excited for this session for a few reasons. One, we've got a really great guest. His name is John Moakler. I'm going to share you some information about him in a second. But the second reason is this is called the Wealthy Entrepreneur podcast. And John and I have a shared story about the wealthy entrepreneur that I want to share with you. And it didn't start out as a very good story, but at the end of the day it, it all worked out and now John and I are collaborating together under a wealthy entrepreneur brand. So excited to share that story with you and there's some good insights on how to resolve conflict in there as well. But in the meantime, I want to just share with you a little bit about John. John is a financial advisor who devotes enormous amounts of his time and energy to the health of his clients. So the financial health of his clients. He's a financial planner, well known across Canada, wants to rectify the imbalance between clients and their information of how to build a financial plan. He works specifically with physicians, dentists and business owners. That is his focus and that is what he wants to bring to the table. He is a best selling author of a book called Heal Thy wealth which I'm going to share with you as well. John has a dinner series called the Wealthy Entrepreneur that we're going to hear a little bit about along the way as well. But really excited to bring in John today. Again, financial expert focused on healthcare practitioners. John, it is great to see you again and we've got lots of things to talk about, but I would love to for you to maybe kick this off and share a little bit about how you got started and, you know, details about your journey along the way. And I'll be sure to probe on certain areas to go a little bit deeper.

Fantastic, Robert, thank You for having me this morning. Well, my journey really started back in university because I went to University of Waterloo for math and computer science. And while I was there they decided to test out this new concept of sending us down the street to Wilfrid Laurier to take business courses. So I was the first Waterloo students to go through. And I didn't get the double degree, I got a business minor, but that eventually became the double degree going forward. But when I graduated, because I had the business background, I wasn't going into coding or programming type jobs, I was going into sales and marketing and I was working in the C suite. So the CEO, cfo, etc, all around the world. And I really enjoyed that. And I worked with hardware company, software company, outsourcing companies. And my last stint I did a very successful startup software company and an incubator at Young and Eglinton. We were a Delaware based corporation. We were one of 12 in the incubator, but we were the most successful one because we started with 1.2 million US in December of 2000. And then in 2001, when the markets are going nuts, we closed 11 million US in financing. And then we ended up selling the company to IBM. Three years later, IBM New York for 76 million US because we were a threat to their services business. And that's when I stepped back and said, you know, I want to be an entrepreneur, I want my own, my own company. And so I actually called my financial planner to say, how does it work with you? And that's when I decided to get into financial planning. And that was now, you know, 20 years ago.

Yeah. And so how has that evolved sort of in the last 20 years? Right. You get started. I'm assuming if you were anything like me, you sort of hung a shingle out, you started pounding the pavement and then you've built a little bit of a team along the way. Do you want to share a little bit more about that?

Sure. It's actually interesting. I worked for a very large mutual fund company at the time. They had 5,000 advisors. And during the interview process they always want you to bring in a list of 200 names that you could market to as your war market. And so I brought in a list of 7,000 people and they just looked at me and I went, I don't know them all personally, but I know how to market to them. And so I started off and I was doing full financial planning. So the average advisor in this company maybe sold two insurance products the whole year because they were focused on mutual funds. And I sold 33 policies in my first year. And I went, what the heck is this guy doing? I was doing full financial planning. And so I was working with everyday average Canadians living paycheck to paycheck, you know, restructuring their debts, turning bad debts into good debts, freeing up hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars a month on their mortgage. And then I would use that money to free up, to then fulfill their goals because we went through a goal section and we would put bumper guards around the family, plan for the kids education, and then start planning to invest for retirement.

All right, so now knowing where you are now and saying you started out with, you know, the everyday Joe, which I think, you know, listen, when we get started, a lot of times we, we essentially have to take the work that's available to us, right? As we start to build up a little bit of momentum and then we can start to get a little bit more selective and find out really truly the passion areas for us to, to maybe focus on in our business. So as your financial planning business evolved, did you focus on a specific group as you continued to grow your company?

That is correct. So what I did, I stood back after 2008 when the markets crashed and I said, who didn't get affected by this? Like, who didn't lose their job? Who continued to work? And the answer was doctors, not dentists, because dentists, people did cut back, but doctors. And so then I decided to try to target doctors. And so I, I decided to try. I'm going, okay, they're busy Monday to Friday seeing patients, so why don't I hold a breakfast session on a Saturday morning? I did that and nobody showed up. I failed. Yeah. And then I said, okay, let me try lunch. Maybe they'll come out for lunch. Maybe they're sleeping in the morning. And nobody came out for lunch. I went, what the heck? And so I, I called some high end restaurants and said, do you guys do any dinner seminars or, or lunch seminars for doctors? And they go, yeah, we do them all the time. Who's doing them? Pharmaceutical companies said, really? Pharma companies. And when did they do them? So they were doing the Monday and Wednesday night starting at seven. I went, okay, I'm going to do Tuesday and Thursday. And that's where I started doing the dinner seminars in, in 2009.

So, so walk me through that a little bit more. And I love that. That's a fascinating story too, because you hear a lot of people, you know, the first time they go to run an event or anything, it's usually a pretty challenging fail.

Right.

And can be a little bit discouraging to try again, you know, and so to, to be able to find that sort of specialization, the time that makes it work. Can you maybe share with me now what that event series looks like, how often you're doing it and who it's really targeted to?

Well, I like coaching other people and I like public speaking. And so I'm a natural when I'm up at the front doing the dinner seminars. And really it's a case of getting a list of the doctors finding the right restaurant because here in Canada, doctors could eat out every night of the week because they get bombarded by everybody. So you're messaging, your messaging has to get through. So it starts with the dinner seminar invite. And when you get it, it's designed that it gets to the doctor. The staff is not blocking it. There's a secret sauce in that. But inside the invitation, you've got immediate credibility because you have testimonials, you're answering the question, what's in it for me? Why should I come? And so the agenda is there with top points that would attract to them. And then of course, being a best selling author, I have my book in there as well. And so the funny thing is, when I left corporate Canada because I was only getting like 20 or 30% of the doctors in the audience wanting a follow up. And when I left Corporate Canada in 2013 and went out on my own with my staff, I went from 20 to 30% wanting to meet with me to 75 to 80% wanting to meet with me. And so I knew I had something really, really special. And then I started coaching other advisors across Canada.

Excellent. And so first and foremost, you mentioned your book, so I'm going to just drop it in here. Heal Thy wealth. And it says how doctors are misdiagnosing their own financial health and what they can do about it. Fantastic release. Congratulations on the bestseller status. That's always awesome. Let's jump into maybe some of the challenges that you do see on a regular basis. So specifically, you know, what are some of the patterns and pitfalls that you see with doctors, dentists and clinic owners when it comes to their finances?

Well, the challenge for them is to really find a trusted advisor who's looking out for their best interest. Because in our industry, people sell product and move on. I call it hit and move on, hit and move on. And so when I'm trying to find other John Moaklers in Canada, I'm having a challenge finding those people because I want them to have Financial planning designations because I went back to school in 2009 and inside of one year I got both my CFP certified financial planner, which is kind of like the gold standard, and the CLU Chartered Life Underwriter. But it was really the CLU that gave me all the knowledge of on estate planning and working with high net worth people and doing estate planning. And so really it was just that evolution of now working with doctors and dentists and holding the dinner seminar. And so inside the dinner seminar, I'm not selling product. That's the big difference. And I come out even 20 years later when doctors come to my dinner seminars and they go, where have you been for the last 20 years? And you know, and they go, I haven't seen a lot of this stuff anywhere because I go through case studies and I explain to them, how does financial planning impact you and your family? And that's really the messaging that comes out from the case studies.

Yeah, no, that, that makes sense. Now, we could probably agree, right? Professionals, especially in the healthcare industry, they're committed and dedicated their entire life to serving others.

Right?

Helping impact them, helping them improve their health. Even better, you know, if we could get more into proactive health care, you know, that's my advocacy as far as we, we go there because I know how important health is. But they commit their, their entire profession and their careers to serving others, but they often neglect their own wealth planning. Do you want to speak to maybe how they neglect themselves when it comes to their finances?

Well, I tried to even get into, you know, University of Toronto has a, you know, a medical program that I was blocked because they're going, no, we don't allow doctors to attend sessions. That's only helping them personally. It's got to be tied to their practice. So the financial planning you're doing, I want to talk about it. You know, it's, it's not tied to the medical practice. It's more about them personally. So it really gets down to the College of Physicians and Surgeons, you know, blocking people like me. I think they should go through a vetting process and make sure, because I said, I'm not going to be selling any product. I just want to explain to them what they need to do. They're coming out of, out of residency with lots of debt. Should I incorporate? Should I, you know, not incorporate? When's a good time to incorporate? Planning to start a family so they're so busy that they don't have time to focus on investments. And then they might hook up with someone. And in my book I have 20 questions in the first chapter designed for the doctor to ask their existing financial planner questions to determine. Is this financial planner really looking out for my best interest or do they have conflicts of interest? Because there's so many conflicts of interest in our business and I have case study after case study where products were sold to people and they have no idea why they have them and typically they're designed wrong.

I would agree with that wholeheartedly. But it is based on the advisor. Right. It's finding the right person who has the interests of you and you, the entrepreneur, you, the physician, dentist, medical practitioner, whoever has your interests top of mind versus their own. So absolutely agree with that. Let's talk about some of the financial structure. So when you're thinking of the practitioner who's out there and you're looking to give them some guidance on what that structure looks like that's maybe optimized for them, what are some of the ways that you would see that that structure would be best for them?

Well, when I was researching my book I found out that they're not allowed to hold any real estate inside their medicine professional corporation unless it's linked to their practice. So I do run into situations where they're breaking the rules. And, and I talked to their accountant, their accountant goes well I'll let Revenue Canada challenge them. I go well that is that a really good strategy to do? So I educate them on old opening up a separate company. I don't want to call it a holding company because again they don't want them having holding companies because they have malpractice insurance. So they don't need holding companies. But we call it a real estate investment company and that allows us to move money between the two entities on a taxi free basis and allow them to start building a separate revenue stream of rental real estate. I don't make any commission on rental real estate, but I think it's a good category for them. And so I educate them on how we can tax efficiently get money out of the corp and really get not only coverage for the family when it comes to risk management, but using those dollars to now also invest in rental real estate.

Yeah, you know, and it's one of the challenges for sure. Right. So as, as the CPA and dealing with a lot of professionals as well, you know, the tax planning piece, depending on which college you're part of, every college is sort of different. So you know, I was just having a conversation with a lawyer the other day and, and I know they're not health practitioners but they're also a professional corporation and, and they're allowed to have a holding company as part of their structure because the rules in their college say that they have to own directly or indirectly 100% of the controlling voting rights of the professional corp. Which indirectly means if they own a hundred percent of the voting rights of the holding company and the holding company owns a hundred percent of their professional corp, that they can actually move assets out into a holding company and do exactly what, what you're saying. The one challenge that we do have in the medical practitioner piece, and John, just as you said, we do that structure very similarly and the one thing that we do have to be aware of is that intercompany asset which is a loan receivable from that holding company, could also put you offside with the college because it is an asset that is not used in the regular activity of providing your medical service. So we do it as well. And I would say maybe the one sort of advanced piece I'm going to just share quickly with everybody who's listening, who is thinking about this entire structure. You know, the one way that we can rectify this whole thing, we can do a quick restructure within your medical practitioner corporation where we essentially clear out that due to, from, or we clear out some of the assets that maybe you've accumulated that you shouldn't. We can pull them out into a separate corporation with a restructure and eliminate any of those assets and intercompany transactions, which may be nice to just make sure that you're not offside with the college. Right, because that's the main, it's the restrictions that are in the bylaws and in the articles of incorporation, restricting the activities and the assets that you can have. So we just want to make sure that the college is okay with it. And, and we've done these before to say, hey, we're going to change the ownership very quickly in your corporation. It's going to all happen within one day, but we're going to get rid of all of these assets out and get your, your company back on side so we can rectify them. We can work together on these. But I think the main point and focus, John, that you're trying to bring to the forefront is making sure that we are starting to create some sort of passive investment income stream for these guys and starting to build up a pension fund because as we know, medical practitioners, specifically doctors and physicians, they can't really sell their practice and you know, it's not really a pension plan for them. They've got to have other assets to support them.

Correct. And I'll give you two case, quick case studies just on restructuring. A dentist attended a webinar during COVID reached out, hired me, and as we started looking at it, this was a husband and wife living in Montreal, driving every day to Cornwall, Ontario, because they, in case of separation, they didn't want the Quebec government to take over his dental practice. And so he had a building that he owned personally. He had his dentistry professional corporation. He was doing over $2 million in billable revenue a year, but he was doing an expansion on the building. And so this is what his accountant told him to do, was take the money out of the corporation, pay 40 to 50% taxes on that money, and then use the money to expand the real estate. And I said, time out here. I said, what we can do is we can use the Income Tax act and do an estate freeze and, and move that building from being owned personally to into a real estate holding company. We now know what the tax liability is upon your passing and, and we can deal with that through financial planning. But now that we have this, in a real estate holding company, you can move money between corporations without having to pay taxes. And he goes, why is it my accountant telling me that? I said, I have no idea. But I brought a lawyer to the table, restructured it now on the west coast because I'm registered in different provinces. I have a husband and wife team Young, both doctors, both came from London, England. He did his residency in bc, loved Canada, brought his family over. Well, they're grossing over $800,000 a year. They only had one corp. And so I actually had to hit pause on the financial planning process because I do charge for fee for service for financial planning. And I hit pause because I had to go educate the accountant and the lawyer on why that structure may not be a problem today, but it's going to be a problem 10 years from now with the whole passive income tax. And so we actually did do we shut that corporation down, opened up two new corporations where they're not connected in the eyes of Revenue Canada. And now we're moving forward with the financial planning process. But there's not a lot of financial planners out there that can recognize these problems when they're working with professionals.

Yeah, and disappointing as well. And you know, without getting into it too deeply, you know, accountants should be the advisors that can support with these. But a lot of times, if the accountants aren't necessarily experienced in this type of work, some of those opportunities are missed. And one thing, John, I'll just add to that that, that you did and I'm sure was just sort of in your description, didn't even identify it, but it's a huge value add to those clients is that by separating those two corporations, making sure that they're not associated under the Income Tax act, what happens is, and this is just for everybody listening, we as a small business owner, small business corporation owner, have a $500,000 small business deduction, which gets us down to 12% tax. Okay? If there's two corporations and they're owned by the same group, then they're considered associated and they share a limit. So what John did is he created two corporations, one owned by the husband, one owned by the wife, completely separated because they don't have joint ownership. And what he did is he opened up so that it's $500,000 small business deduction per each corporation, which saved them a lot of upfront tax. And this is good planning, right? This is just a good identification of the opportunity. And yes, the accountants should have identified this as well. But sometimes, guys, we need to just be aware of the opportunities that arise and make sure we're working with the right professionals who can give us that guid. So nice work, John. Thank you. That's a good one. Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. And yeah, we work with different colleges across Canada, have different rules. So, you know, for example, I'll use the Accountants College, cpa, Ontario or whatever the province is. So we're registered across Canada as well. And I can tell you that the ownership restrictions in Ontario and in Manitoba are vastly different. Where in Ontario, and I'm just highlighting this because it's fresh for me, but in Ontario, I have to be the only owner of the corporation. And in Manitoba, we can actually have a holding company that's owned by, you know, spouses, kids. So there's more income planning opportunities. And so thinking of every single college, and this is why I use accountants to not, you know, block anybody else out. But, you know, the College of Physicians of Dentists, each province has a different regulation, so it's important that you work with somebody who knows those regulations in each province as well. So. Love that. John. I want to maybe push even a little bit deeper. Knowing that your firm supports clients that earn a million dollar plus in clinic revenue or in personal income, what are the specific needs of this group that you see come across your desk versus, you know, like where you started, which was, you know, everybody trying to help everybody serve everything. What are the Specific needs that you find in this group that you focus on?

Well, it depends on where they are in their career. But if they're early to mid in their career, it's all about, you know, paying for the kids education tax effectively. It's making sure I have everything protected. And if I passed away last night, my family could continue on with their lifestyle and then getting into planning for retirement because I had this, this doctor in Hamilton. They had a separate real estate holding company. It was all set up properly. They had 10 insurance policies between himself, his wife, his kids. And you would think, okay, 10 insurance policies. He had whole life disability, critical illness. But when we did surgery on those 10 policies, we found six out of the 10 were either designed wrong, owned wrong or were missing features. And it was a real pain point for him because we designed the plan in January or, sorry, of December, of, of 2019, just before COVID hit and they said, go meet with our accountant. So we met with Andy and Hamilton presented the plan. He goes, they have to do this. But by time Covid hit, we, we couldn't move forward and we had to wait. But he had a pain because he had, he had invested 250,000 into this one whole life product. He invested another 150,000 into another whole life product. They were both designed wrong. And we showed it to him on paper, I said, if you continue doing this, you're not going to get out of it what you want. And so he had to hit reset and walk away from $400,000. That was painful and it took him a couple of months, but he hit reset and the payback is now three years. So we've designed it properly and now he's able to extract money out of the corporation in a more tax efficient way in order to grow his rental real estate.

And so I want to, you know, bring something back in that you were talking about earlier. You were talking about creating that, you know, sister company that you were calling the real estate investment company. And part of the reason, and you highlighted it at time when you were mentioning it, you know, to pull money out of the corporation, we have to pay dividend tax, right. As shareholders. So for you physicians, dentists, other clinical practitioners, healthcare practitioners, really, anybody who owns a company, right, to pull money out personally and make those investments personally, we pay up to 43% tax on it. Not ideal. Right. And so the way the benefit of setting up that related company is that you can transfer money from corporation to corporation with no tax, but you can't transfer money from corporation to personal without paying tax on it. So part of the structure that John was talking about earlier, that's a huge benefit, right? Because if you have, let's say a hundred thousand dollars to invest and you invest it personally, you pay $43,000. That leaves us with $57,000 left. You have that in your personal account versus a hundred thousand dollars in a corporate account, which one's gonna grow faster, which one's gonna accumulate wealth for you in a better way? Clearly the before tax investment because it's gonna grow faster at a much bigger rate. So now John is specifically talking about whole life policies or corporate should be corporate owned insurance policies. And the idea that sometimes what happens and advisors tell people to do this is to have the insurance policies in their name versus in the corporation. So it's the same thing. Let's say it's a $50,000 a year whole life policy. If it's in your personal name, you're taking that money out, you're paying 50 or 43% tax on it, and then you're buying that whole life policy. That's a problem, right? It's going to cost us so much cash to get that out. Now instead, as John's talking about the optimized structure, having it inside a corporation, and it depends on how that structure is for you, depending on your circumstances. But typically in a, in some form of non operating company, and to pay for those premiums, we don't have to pay tax on them, the premiums are not deductible, but we don't have to pay tax to pull that money out. So huge tax benefit there. And then just to take it one step further, when eventually a death benefit is claimed, it comes into the corporation, it can be extracted as a dividend, tax free through what's called the capital dividend account. So you know, making sure that you're working with an advisor who knows and understands the optimized structure is so important. And John, I'm doing that extra push there for you because I just wanted to get a little technical on that and say, you know, you don't need to know the rules, but you need to work with somebody who does to make sure that they're working in your best interest. And sometimes they're not intending to not be in your best interests, but they need the knowledge and the understanding of the optimized planning there as well. So love that John as well. Let's talk about this webinar that we're going to do together. All right? And I'm, I'm excited about this. So we're calling it, your practice is thriving now. Make sure it's working for you. Now this event is specifically for doctors, dentists, chiropractors, naturopaths, physiotherapists and any other health practitioner who owns a clinic. Right. And ultimately what we're trying to look at is how to avoid overpaying taxes. Right, I'm going to talk about that. We're going to get a little nerdy on some structuring more so to identify, you know, that you're using the most optimal structure. Right. Because one of the things that we see, 92% of business owners pay more tax than they legally have to. That's disgraceful. And the majority of time that that tax is happening is because it's an ineffective structure for you. And so we're going to talk about how to optimize that. And then John's going to focus on how to create a tax free retirement paycheck. Looking at longer term planning that extends beyond your clinic and putting bumper guards around themselves, around yourself and your family on how to build that long term financial plan. John, did you want to elaborate on anything that you're going to jump into on that, on that webinar?

Well, the whole focus is I build bulletproof financial plans. And what I mean by that is, is you can throw any what if scenario at the plan and it will not only thrive but survive. And with my book I'm now working in the United States with partners and I have advisors down there, I'm now coaching. My book is now being rewritten for the US market and it'll be out later this year and allows advisors to co brand my book in the United States. But it's really getting into I design critical illness insurance that such that it's a no brainer either you're going to get a critical illness and the benefit's going to go into your corporation and then we can take it out through a health spending account on a tax free basis or we add two features to it that allows you, if you die along the way, 100% of the premiums you had put into this policy goes back to your spouse. Or if you survive and you're 15, 16, 20 years out and you go, you know what, I'm self insurable, give me 100% of my money back while I'm alive. So that's what I mean by building bulletproof plans that's guaranteed critical illness, but I'll be getting into the whole life where you can use it immediately to grow Rental real estate, or in the case of this very high end ophthalmologist in Rosedale, we're using it to pay his mortgage in a more tax efficient way. And I'll get into that case study when we do our webinar on the 20th.

I love that. And I was just gonna say November 20th is going to be the webinar. We will make sure that any registration links are sent out. So make sure you're following this podcast. We will make sure that it gets out to you guys and our entire list. More information to come. I do wanna just highlight John's book again. Heal Thy Wealth. We will put a link to getting John's book in the comment notes underneath as well. So. So no problem there. Let's talk about another book, John. This one, this is called the Wealthy Entrepreneur and this is my book. And this is actually how John and I connected. John, did you want to share this story or did you want me to?

I'd rather hear it in a positive way from you.

Okay. All right, well, so I like that. So we, we wrote this book, I wrote this book, I'm going to say, five years ago now. And so when we wrote this book, essentially we poured our heart and soul into the foundational components of what it is to be an entrepreneur. How to structure your business and how to set up your business for success. It's a lot of financial and strategy topics, you know, how to build a team, stuff like that. And so we created a coaching program outside of this and a podcast, if you haven't known, it is called the Wealthy Entrepreneur as we're on right now. And so we, we reached out to John not knowing, right? We, we followed everything that we felt like we should have in a positive way and reached out to John to say, hey, you've got this website called the wealthy entrepreneur.com and you know, we'd love to buy it off you. We've got this active program, I'd love to, to just, you know, move forward with that. And the next thing you know is I got a legal letter of a cease and desist and I went, oh, what happened? And so it looks like John actually had this brand and this the Wealthy Entrepreneur registered and it slipped under our radar, including our patent lawyers who were researching to make sure that we were good to go. So ultimately our lawyers started having a little bit of a battle. There was some history there too, John, and they didn't like each other and so this was not working well for me. So I actually reached out to John and I Said, hey, John, no hard feelings. I wasn't intending to take over anything and not trying to step on any toes, but I kind of have a lot of stuff that's going on here. How can we work together to solve this problem? And so John and I hopped on a call, we talked it through. We're going to do some, some work together. We're going to do this joint webinar together. We've got a few things that we said. I said, okay, let me, let me bring some value to you and I'm not stepping on your toes with anything that you're doing. This is just what we've got going on and I'd like to keep it that way. And John was a gentleman, actually, I would say two gentlemen having a conversation that resolves what wasn't going in a good direction when, when it was dealing with the lawyers. Right. And, and so here we are collaborating in a wonderful way and have an agreement so that I can carry on with my book and my program and my podcasts and everything like that, to the point where we have the original wealthy entrepreneur John himself on the podcast. John, did you want to speak to that and how you got that started?

Yeah, back in 2009 when I started doing these dinner seminars, I wanted to come up with a name and I was very careful of David Chilton owning the Wealthy Barber. But it was very successful. And so my patent Lawyer suggested a two stage process back in 2009. So we did get eventually the trademark, the Wealthy Entrepreneur. And then I bought.comand.ca and so my dinner seminar series is the Wealthy Entrepreneur and that's the branding. And I've, I've worked with other advisors in Canada. They get to use my branding. And I also own, as of, as of last week, as I filed it more than a year ago, I actually own the Wealthy Entrepreneur in the United States as well now. And so they're going to be branding the Wealthy Entrepreneur Dinner Seminar series down in the United States. So that, that's really the whole thing behind it is, yes, it's Moakler Wealth Management, but my dinner seminar series was the Wealthy Entrepreneur Dot com. But you know, Robert's correct. When we chatted, we realized, you know, it's complimentary, it's not competitive, and why not work together? That's a much better way. And let's let the lawyers off the hook and let's just go forward together in a more pleasant way.

Yeah, that's a nice way to say it. We let them off the hook. Yeah. And you Know what? We didn't, we didn't have to pay any of their bills to not resolve anything either. So, like, I think guys really, truly was a really great learning moment for anybody who's listening where it's like, you know what, you still can just call and have a conversation, rational conversation with people and where, you know, there may be legal parameters that are being forced upon us to say, no, absolutely not. But then you can actually just have a working relationship to make sure that it's a win, win situation for everybody. And you know, try that, you know, try getting on a phone and having a conversation because there is another human being on the other side. And you know what? They're probably not trying to mess with your business or anything like that. You could probably have a really great partnership or collaboration going forward if you just work together. So thank you for that, John. It was, it's been great to get to know you and also to put on this webinar together. I'm really excited about it.

I am too. I'm looking Forward to the 20th just to open people's minds because again, in my industry, and that's really the industry that's at fault. And I'm part of Advocus. I'm just stepping down after three years of being the president of the Peel Halton chapter of the Financial Planners association of Canada. I was the membership chair before that. But we're really trying to get. When someone calls themselves a financial planner and you know, I met with, with Doug Ford and Vic Fidelity when Vic was the finance minister, that's coming on four or five years ago. And I said, vic, give me your business card. And I scratched off, you know, the finance minister. And I wrote in financial planner. And I handed it back to him and I said, you're now a financial planner. He goes, what? I said, yeah, there's no regulations. I said, lawyers have regulations, accountants have regulations, pharmacists have regulations, physiotherapists have regulations, financial planners do not. And unfortunately, it's still getting watered down that as long as you have your mutual fund license, you can call yourself a financial planner. To me, that's very dangerous because I have to do at least 30 CE credits a year to keep up my designations. And you are building financial plans. And that's. They've got to really focus on that in the industry because there's too many people out there calling themselves a financial planner. They don't have designations. And you know, when I ask someone, do you have a financial plan? Oh, yeah, I got a Financial plan. I say, great, Let me ask you a couple of questions. What date in your financial plan can you afford to retire and not look back? Dead silence. Okay, let me help you here. What does your retirement paycheck look like? How much is taxable? How much is tax preferred? How much is tax free? Silence. I say, okay, may I suggest, I think you have what is called an investment advisor and not a financial planner. Because if we look at an eight slice pie, investments is one slice of the pie. I'd like to talk to you about the other seven slices. Would that be okay? And they just look at me going, what am I missing? Right. And that.

Almost all of it.

Yeah. And so that opens up the dialogue, right?

Yeah, yeah, 100%. You've got my mind just thinking in so many different directions of so many things that we could talk about today. But I want to maybe just push forward in keeping on the theme of the wealthy entrepreneur and knowing that you work with a lot of healthcare practitioners and professionals. I've had a lot of coaching over my career and I invest in coaches all the time. And one of the very first things that my coach said to me is, when are you going to stop calling your accounting firm a practice? And he said, like, is it, are you still practicing or are you actually going to take this serious and be a business owner? And I know one of the things that you would see working with healthcare practitioners is that we focus right, as professionals on being the artist who's delivering the healthcare practitioner service and solution and again, dedicating it to supporting the lives of those that they're serving. But how can these healthcare practitioners start thinking more like entrepreneurs versus just a practitioner who's practicing?

Yeah, doctors don't see themselves as business owners, dentists do. And it's really because dentists have to hustle to get a client list, bring them in the door. Sometimes they have to own a building to how's their practice. They own equipment and machines and staff and you know, they have a huge payroll, whereas doctors could just be giving away 10, 20, even 30% overhead and everything's taken care of and they just have to show up, see their patients and go home. They don't see themselves as business owners. And so it's really educating the doctors on. It's a reset in their mind as to how you have to think about your practice. You're not just a doctor, you're a business owner. And when I take a look at people rapidly paying down their mortgage, I just shake my head and I go into my Lieutenant Colombo routine, who used to be a bumbling police officer on tv because I, I'm not a big fan of rapidly paying down your mortgage. You know, pay, pay your mortgage, but don't rapidly pay down your mortgage because every extra dollar you're taking out of the corporation, you're mailing 40 cents to Ottawa. You're not ever going to see that again. And you're paying down a debt where the mortgage is only costing you 4,4%, which is 4 cents on the dollar. So I get, you know, it's educating them on how to think about what they're doing with their money. And you know, they have so much money, sometimes they don't know what to do with it. And this one doctor in Toronto, when we went through the, the process and they said, okay, we're spending 25,000 net per month in our lifestyle. Well, that's a nice lifestyle. And I don't, you know, judged anybody, but when I looked at their income taxes, their personal tax returns over the last two years, they were paying themselves 38,000 net per month. So that's an extra 13 grand times 12, you know, 156 grand a year. She's been an OB GYN, he's a high end corporate CEO. And I said, okay, you know, that's 10 years, it's got to be $1 million of personal assets. Let's look at your assets. Nothing. And so they went, oh my God, our spending's out of control. And so again, we had to hit pause in the financial planning process and figure out where all their money's going. And so we did manage to get it down to 22,000 net per month. And now we have a plan targeting for retirement.

And you know what I would even say as well, and I love that I would even say as well, it comes right out of school, the mentality of physicians, because like you said, you kind of walk into, here's your business, here's your clients, here's your patients, here's your revenue. It's covered under ohip. You know, there's administrative components to it, but you know, ultimately you just start being a doctor. And the first thing for any of you new doctors that are coming out here, you know, listen to this carefully because this is just piggybacking off what John said. New doctors feel like they need to get rid of their student debt so fast. And the very first year that they set up their business, they may not incorporate, which is a mistake, incorporate. But then they start pulling all this money out to get rid of their student debt. Cause they feel like, hey, we have to get rid of this as quickly as possible. But guys, just remember, 43% of every dollar you take out goes to the government to pay that off. The better plan would be to maintain some of that cash in your corporation, work with someone like John to get the plan in place to say, what are we going to do with this cash? And pay those student loans off. Over time, it allows you to compound the revenue or, sorry, the investments that you have. It allows you to grow your wealth inside your corporation. And then ultimately, like, I know this is a tough one, but if you have all the cash in your company and it's greater than the debt that you have outside, you're essentially conceptually debt free. Right? So, so like, let's not get rid of half of that cash value to pay down your debt. So let's focus on a good plan versus being irrational as well. Because I know there's a lot of times, especially in the physician space, having any debt is like concerning because you probably grew up where it was, you know what, no debt, debt's a bad thing. Let's make sure that if you're going to buy something that you can pay for it with cash in your pocket. Yes, that's nice. And yes, it's nice if you are an employee somewhere. It's a really great philosophy and approach to things to not over commit yourselves. But you're in a different situation now and we can actually be more strategic in how we want to do that. So John, love that comment on your side. One last question for you and then we'll wrap this up. But one of the areas that I see a lot of entrepreneurs, and this fits into the healthcare practitioners as well, is that these business owners get to a point where they feel very overwhelmed financially, some of it because, you know, they're doctors, they're physiotherapists, they're chiropractors, they're dentists. They're really good at their craft. But money and finances is stressful and you know, what they do with it is, is definitely a stressful situation. What's your advice to support these practitioners in moving away from, you know, financial concerns and into somewhere that they feel a little bit more comfortable. How can we work with them to get them there?

Well, they've got to find a trusted advisor and you know, buy my book, have those 20 questions and ask them just to make sure that the advisor doesn't have a lot of conflicts and they're not just there to sell you a product because with this other ophthalmologist who hired me in the fall of 2023, actually around October, November, presented the plan in January of 2024. We didn't start to implement that plan until August, eight months later. So I tell them, you know, this is a journey. It's not something that has to happen overnight. And if someone is quickly trying to sell you a product, it's because they're looking at you as their paycheck. They're not really looking at you as to, how can I help you thrive and grow and protect your family and, and do it in a timely manner as opposed to, you know, under pressure to sell a product.

100%. Yeah. And, you know, I would say too, from my end, so, you know, obviously John and I are complimentary sort of services and are professionals that work closely together, right? Accountants, financial advisors. And on my side, making sure that you're not stressing about your ongoing bookkeeping or your record keeping or, you know, the ongoing finances of the business. Outsource that headache to someone who knows what they're doing so that you can focus on one feeling confident about it, but to focus on doing your care and your, you know, whether it's dental, physiotherapy, physician, whatever, whatever it is that you're good at, focus in that lane, right? And continue to own that zone of genius. But don't get yourself all stressed out over minor financial reconciliations or stuff like that. Let the people who know support you along that journey. And the same would go for finances. You know, sometimes people are going, oh, well, how do we do this? And self directed funds and how do we choose investments? Work with somebody who can take that stress off of your plate for you and help you build that wealth. Plan, right? There's no need for everybody to stress about every single thing. When there's experts who are there, who, when you have to find them, though they're in your best interest, they're working and they're advocating for you. Work with them and they'll help make your journey so much easier. John, this has been an absolute pleasure. I'm gonna leave you with one last question. So. And I usually offer this to my guests that are on the podcast. So obviously you've been in the business for a while, starting especially in the financial industry back in 2009, 2008. And so if you were thinking of yourself back when you started and you've got a lot of knowledge now, right, we know that 19 years later, there's been a lot of learning there's been a lot of failures on, you know, creating seminars where nobody shows up because you didn't have the right day or time. What is it that you know now that had you have known when you started, you would have been in a better position to succeed?

And especially in my business, you really need to see yourself as a business owner as well. And the reason why I'm so successful in these dinner seminar series is there's a cost barrier for a lot of advisors because they don't see the big picture. So what I would have told myself back in 2004 is go back to school faster, because I waited, you know, five, six years to get my financial planning designations. If you really want to be a financial planner, you know, get educated, number one. So I would have told myself, get educated faster. Number two, I would have hired my assistant faster because, you know, you're looking at it being an expense and can I afford it. But by having an assistant, it frees you up to do more billable work that you can do and put together. And then obviously, niche marketing, where I would get in to do the whole doctor and dentist vertical a lot faster, because you become an expert in that field, they start to recognize your name. And it's really funny. Recently I had an advisor, a competitor in another company call me and say, I'm working on this doctor. And he told me to call you. I went, what? And so we actually are collaborating on the. On the deal, which is kind of interesting, but I was shocked that a competitor would call me and say, can I. Can I get your help here, please? Right?

Awesome. Hey, you know what? Those are, Those are great stories. You know, when somebody. And I actually have way more respect for that advisor, knowing that they maybe have some limitations and they're working in the best interest of the client, knowing when to bring you in to support them, I think that's super powerful and kudos to them for doing it, because that's not an easy call to make. Right. Is to bring someone else in who's competing with you. But no, I absolutely love that. That's great. And on your niche comment as well, and this is for any of you who don't talk about niches. In Canada, it's niches. In the US it's niches. And so in the US There's a saying called the riches are in the niches. And so the idea is, the more you can focus and become a specialist in one specific area, focusing on bringing value to a certain market, the more premiums you can make, the more Easily it is going to be that you can market your services, differentiate yourself as well. So, yeah, love that too. John. That, that's fantastic. John, thank you for joining today. This has been a pleasure to have you on. Lots of really great insights though, that, that you've brought to the table.

Well, thank you very much for having me on, Robert. And again, I really look forward to our webinar. It's going to be in the evening on the 20th of November. And I hope we, I hope we're sold out.

Absolutely. Well, as much as we can sell out an online event, we're going to make sure that there's as much room for people before we crash the system. But really excited about it as well. Yes. The evening, November 20, focusing on the fact that your practice is thriving now, making sure it's working for you, helping you understand, you know, the optimal structure and building out your financial plan for future success. So, John, pleasure to have you on here for everybody. Thank you for joining us today. This is the Wealthy Entrepreneur Podcast. I'm your host, Bob Goverow. It is always a pleasure to have you here with us. Make sure you give us a follow right. Every single week we're releasing a new episode. We would love to have you following us on our journey. We continue to bring in great experts like John and entrepreneurs to share their story, their insights of how they've succeeded, how they've failed and overcome those. So make sure that you check us out and follow us going forward. If there's anything that you've heard today that you feel is valuable to another entrepreneur or clinical practitioner, healthcare practitioner, grab this information, give it a share, send it off. We're here to empower entrepreneurs with the financial confidence they need to be financially successful. And ultimately, when we're financially successful, we can move the world forward in a really great way. So share that out. We're here to, obviously it's free. So we're here to just share that information and knowledge to help support everybody. And if there's anything in here that you'd like more information on, drop us a comment, drop us a question in here. We will respond to you. We will get you the information you need otherwise, guys, once again, thank you for joining today. It's always a pleasure to be your host. Look forward to seeing you next week.