Vision, Values, and Growth: The Path of Post Structures Under Josh and Herman Post's Stewardship

I would probably say number one challenge we faced was really started at the top with ourselves as leaders and being cohesive in where we wanted to go with the business. So I think part of that comes with transition and trying to solve. How do you switch from generation to generation? We know where cash is starting to get tighter, constricted, or where it gets a little better. And so now we really get the sense of a pulse of our business is really helpful when you're managing your business.

All right, so let's jump right into it. Josh, Herman, such a pleasure to have you guys here. I gotta tell you, the fact that we've had the opportunity to work together over the last, I don't know, is it three, maybe four years at this point? It's been such a great pleasure, one that you guys have a super great relationship. You have different roles within the organization and that you have such an interesting business that I feel just continues to grow and evolve and, and has the opportunity, opportunity to continue to learn from itself and you guys learn from each other. So, you know, it's a great pleasure to have you guys here. I love working with you guys. I would love maybe Herman to kick it off as the older brother. Kick it off and maybe tell us the story about how post got started.

Yeah. So post started in 1974 by my father. And back in the day it would have been, for the first couple years it would have been homes, custom homes. And then very quickly it transitioned into barns, primarily pole barns, mostly through the late 70s and the 80s and into the 90s. And then we. In the late 90s, there was a lot of Dutch immigrants that were moving over and buying dairy farms. And so dairy became a big part of our business in the late 90s and into the 2000s. And then slowly over the 2000s, our horse market really started to grow as becoming a bigger component of our business. And that led us to working more with rural estate owners. And so the eventual where we are today is we focus mostly on real estate properties. So custom homes, high end horse barns, garages and workshops and country markets and all sort of sorts of neat builds that you would see across the countryside. Sort of a wrap in the GTA area. So yeah, it's next year is actually our 50th year in business. So we're looking forward to celebrating that. Yeah.

Yeah. So what's the big celebration? How are we, what are we doing and how do I get myself invited? That's what I want to know.

I'm not sure. I think we're just Going to celebrate the fact that we survived this part of that. So the journey of being an entrepreneur. Right. Learning.

Totally. And you know what? I feel like I don't know how this works, but I know the prime minister usually sends a letter for marriage for 50 years, and I feel like the marriage success rate and the business success rate are probably likely around the same statistic, maybe even harder to accomplish. I would probably challenge that. So, you know, we should get Justin on the phone, and I would expect that he writes a nice letter.

Yeah, we'll look forward to that one.

I don't know that that's the celebration that you're looking for, but.

Yeah, you didn't know. I can maybe think of better ways, so.

Yeah. So, Josh, maybe share with us how you and Herman got involved in the business. I know it's been around for 50 years. You guys have definitely not been there for 50 years. Maybe share how you started in the business, what that looked like. I'm guessing, like many family businesses, you probably just grew up in the business and carried on from there.

Yeah, that's about right. I missed about half that story. Cause I was either not born or.

I was in diapers.

Right. So. But, yeah, I kind of got sucked in. I was just a punk in school, and I had a offer to go to University of Guelph, and the thought of four years of schooling was torturous. So I thought, all right, I'll just go for a year of work and see what happens. Which, of course, is the kiss of death. See, I got sucked in, and I always said I'd never worked for my dad in the business, and others go my own way, and that didn't work out for me, but, yeah, you're stuck with me.

Well, it didn't work out for you that. Yeah, that. I was gonna say it didn't work out that you didn't get into it, but it's definitely worked out that you guys have got a fantastic business that you're part of.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And. And, yeah, when I started, I was. As an owner, I was. Oh, that was, what, 2007 or so? So, yeah, back then, I, like, I was. I was just a bunch. I was pretty young, and. And, yeah, I had no idea what I was getting into. So, yeah, it's been quite a journey. That's right here.

And Herman, when did you start?

Yeah, I'm not sure if there ever was a start date. I think that's still the tough one, because, yeah, we grew up on, you know, as farm boys, on Dad's Farm. Right. So we worked on the farm and we helped clean out trucks. And by the time I was 15 years old, I was cleaning up garbage on the job site. Going through university, I worked all my summers and led crews. So I had. I touched every part of the business you could say in on the field. And then when I graduated university, I was going through job offers and was. My dad ended up in the hospital. And when he got out, he basically said, you know, if you don't come join me in the business, I'm looking at selling the business. So I thought, oh, why not? Right. So I was the second person in the office that was in 99. And from there I got to work in estimating we did put all the expenses into Excel sheets and would submit that to our accountant once a quarter or actually the accountant came to our office and keyed it all in for us. And then, yeah, so I touched every part of the business and eventually ended up in sales. And like Josh said, in many ways, I was. We were way too young, right? So just graduated in 99. And by 2001, I think we already had a structure in place where the business had totally transitioned and three brothers had had all the shares and all the common shares. And so, yeah, that. That was an interesting journey. Right. Just the transition from one generation to another and probably did many things wrong. In hindsight, we learned probably a lot of things that we shouldn't have done, but, yeah, certainly a journey.

Totally. So let me ask you guys this. And, you know, family. Family business has its own dynamic that's very special and unique, but maybe share a little bit about the two of you and, you know, the ability to rely on each other not only as business partners and, you know, Herman and Josh being, you know, major executives in his organization. But what does that look like? Because you guys are family. What's that? Extra reliance, Dependability. What does that look like? How does that feel from a family dynamic?

Well, Josh, do you want to go first? You know what I think partnerships. Partnerships can be. You know, there's a lot of. Lot of caution that goes around partnership, for sure. But on the other hand, partnerships can be very beautiful when it gets right. So for Josh and myself, I'm not sure if Josh quit tomorrow on the business, whether I'd stay in the business. You know what I mean? There's a beauty about doing it with someone when you're aligned. And so I think the key part about that is just making sure that as a leadership team, you're. You're aligned. Josh And I are in some ways very much alike, but also very different. And so what, what excites Josh about the business and what he does as, as a role as a, our operator and general manager of the business is a little different than what, what excites me. And so I'm happy, I'm excited about that. The stuff he takes, I'm happy to let go. And so I think that's what makes it unique for the two of us for sure.

And what an interesting evolution. Right. And I think every entrepreneur can appreciate, respect that where you know, you didn't end up when you first started this and Herman 25 years ago, you know, you've got your own celebration that's happening at a, at a 25 year mark. That's pretty amazing as well. But thinking of when you started 25 years ago and Josh 16, you know, thinking of what your role was and you were probably just taking on anything that you could and now looking at it as being, you know, well defined roles and being able to delegate, that's just part of the entrepreneurial journey. And I would say, you know, one of the reasons you guys continue to be so successful is that you do create those roles for people, for delegation that allows you to essentially empower them to be successful in doing something that the organization needs. And that's one of the things I think you guys have done really, really well over the years and probably contributed to a lot of your success. Now even just thinking of that, do you guys want to share what it is that you know, your specific role in the organization and what you tend to take on as a responsibility on the day to day basis?

Yeah, I, I can go first. I. So I'm as the operator, I take care of basically everything except for sales and marketing and yeah, so I'm more on the finance, HR and people management. Right. So like Herman said, we have very opposite geniuses, which is pretty cool and just allows us to kind of bash others perspective off each other, which is quite helpful. So yeah, it's not, I wouldn't say it feels silent at all. Like in some ways it can feel like that in the sense we're both running all day, but this one quick phone call on the road, it's we're caught back up and running. Right. So it works well.

Yeah, absolutely. And Herman, what's your day to day look like?

Well, I'm probably still primarily quite heavy in sales and sort of the growth of the businesses, that's kind of my primary focus. That excites me too. So I'M good with that. So. But I think, yeah, you're right. I think you mentioned too sort of as a segue into this question, too, that there's a. That the business needs to sort of evolve. And back in 99, I was the second person in the office, and I think, you know, we were doing just over a million dollars of sales. And so, yeah, you're a small operation. In fact, many times our vendors and trades would call in and it would just be called John Post Construction. Right. So it was really sort of hinged on my father. And so what ended up happening was over that next decade, we, you know, we go up to 10 million just in the construction business alone. And it blew every system we had in place out of the water. Right. And so now you start, you start to. You could be good people running, doing good work, but because you're not in an organizational mindset, you're still in a sort of a mom and pop mindset. You just can't keep up. And so, yeah, for us, that came about 2010, 2011, 2012. They were tough years that we had to learn a lot of mistakes the hard way and sort of retract the business and just take it at a more of a reasonable pace. And now really focused on understanding that our scalability of our business really comes down to systems and it sets up people to win. So that's pretty cool.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I remember reading the book Good to Great, and, you know, it talked about the characteristics of a lot of great organizations, what made them great, and the evolution of those organization of those organizations. Even after that book was released, you know, one of them was the major GE that they talked about. That GE looks totally different than it did 15 years ago when that book was released. And it's interesting, you point out, you know, challenges along the way, but that's part of the journey, right? Where it's like, as a small business owner, as an entrepreneur, we're all going to hit roadblocks. And, you know, as much as we try and plan out that everything's going to be perfect, it's just never going to be. But it's how we adapt to that. Our resilience to be able to, you know, turn things around or to continuously improve is something, again, I think you guys do extremely well.

One of the.

One of the questions that maybe spurred from Josh, from your comment about, you know, your alignment between you and Herman, I think comes a lot from, you know, the core values and the vision that you guys have created for the organization and the culture that you guys have created. I know we touched on this earlier on in the day when we were back and forth, but wanted to know if. If you wanted to share a little bit about what that is, you know, the purpose of the. Of the business and why your values and your culture is so strong at post.

Yeah, I think, you know, when we started the process of, like, I think there would have been, what, three, four years ago, kind of we took the business over from our brothers and then that during that chapter, we kind of shifted over, and Herman and I were like, okay, we need to figure out and kind of articulate what our values really are. At that time, I was still a little bit like, you know, what's the point of this? Like, I read all the books. I get it all. I don't think I truly understood the impact that would make on our organization and on our team. And I actually started with my own personal values, so I figured those out first. And then it probably took us a year just bantering back and forth, and we actually got a screenwriter involved with us just to kind of help us kind of articulate it. And so, yeah, by the time we had it kind of sort of figured out, it just kind of took off for us. It really aligned us, helped us to. Yeah, just incorporate it in terms of how we behave as an organization. Right. How we make decisions in the boardroom, how we treat customers, how we deal with difficult situations. So I would say it's probably one of the key levers in our transition was definitely the mission, vision, and the value.

Yeah, I know with us and you guys, we obviously work closely together. We had an acquisition earlier in the year, and it was interesting even seeing two businesses come together as one and trying to adapt to one way of. Of one business is thinking versus another. And I know for us, we had to redefine what our new combined entity was, what our new values were, even though they weren't much different. Just, you know, that new entity and what it meant to all the people that were involved in how we act and what's important to us, and, you know, what it was that we were trying to accomplish. And I think, you know, from my perspective and everything I see with the thousands of companies we work with, that is key element of success is having your culture well defined and making sure that everybody's working together under those rules. And again, I think you guys do that extremely well. I have a question for you that I'd love to know is. And maybe each of you can share, but if you're thinking about, you know, the one challenge that you face in your business that you feel is a really great challenge. Maybe you wouldn't like to have that challenge, but you do. And you know what your approach is to how, how you resolve that. Herman, maybe start with you. Like, what do you feel like a big challenge has been in the business over the years?

Yeah, I would probably say number one challenge we faced was really started at the top with ourselves as leaders and being cohesive in where we wanted to go with the business. So I think part of that comes with transition and trying to solve, you know, how do you switch from generation to generation? And, and I think as brothers too, there was once four of us, right. In the business, all equal part, to figure out where our sweet spot was. But once you get, I think for us, what we found is that the biggest thing was, is that when it, when we had cohesion as leaders, then your team recognizes that your team starts to gel together because your leadership teams gel together. And, and now your values and your mission can be held up consistently and you can start to implement it. So then it just, it actually just creates a bit of a snowball. It's kind of like that flywheel effect, you know, in the.

Good.

Great. Right. Like, it just starts to gain momentum. And so it's, it's pretty beautiful thing when you can see that happen and how that develops. But yeah, in some ways, we, like, it took us a few years to. Few too many years to figure that out, so. Which I think is the beauty of business in many ways. Right. You're never at the finish line, and so you kind of feel like, okay, if we reach this plateau, we'll be cool. But yeah, at that plateau, there's a new set of challenges and a new set of dynamics that come with it, and business keeps evolving. So I think that's what excites us too, in the morning is getting up and tackling those challenges, but. And doing that with the people that we're involved with. Right. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's a pretty cool privilege.

Yeah, 100%. We're kind of joking beforehand. What would a piece of advice be? And I said, and don't say run away, you know, because it is entrepreneurship is, is something that I, you know, unless you are one, unless you've been a small business owner, you don't understand what goes into being that leader and the challenges and the hardships and the resilience and the stress level. You know, I, I find that non business owners are are almost comical when you get the, you know, the side comment, well, isn't that nice? You can take Friday afternoon off to go, be at one of your kids events, or, oh, isn't it nice that you can write off, you know, your company vehicle as your own? Oh, I wish I had those tax deductions where people just don't understand what's behind the scenes. Right? Like when you open the curtain in this, the, you know, the emotional strain of trying to figure out, you know, the new challenge of the day and how to resolve it without, you know, losing employees, losing customers, losing family members, you know, like, it's. Everything is. It's always up in the air. And that's probably part of the challenge, is what keeps us coming back because of the opportunity to solve those challenges and build something bigger than us. And I know that's at least why I'm. I get up every day and try and do it is to solve the problem. And maybe it's a bit of a sickness. You know, I think Alex Charfen, my friend, talks about entrepreneurship and saying that, you know, it's a unique personality type that goes into being an entrepreneur because you're, you know, if you were to take a personality type, you're borderline crazy to be able to do this or get up and withstand this sort of pressure and stress every day.

Yeah.

We always say, like, you're not. You're not really a business owner. Like, I didn't feel like a business owner until, like, the first time I contemplated moving my personal cash over to cover payroll. Suddenly it's real, right? No. And I like, my journey, I started at a kind of a sense of duty almost. Right. Like, just the thing you do. You follow the family business. You. You just. You do that. You do that thing, right? And then you kind of went through that phase where it's like, okay, why am I doing this? Like, is it. Duty doesn't carry you that far. At some point it becomes about, like, you know, what. Why, you know, what gets me to bed in the morning. And I think when you speak to, like, making those changes and tackling those problems, like, I'm. I'm a little bit obsessed with growth and like, and just like, how do we fix this stuff? Right? And as you fix challenges in your business, the awesome part is seeing people change as well. Right? Like, people start thriving, you're changing lives. It sounds cheesy, but it's real. I've seen it.

It's very true. And, you know, I had an employee, one time employee, and I Were having a little bit of a challenge in working together in a cohesive way. And, you know, that employee said to me, you know, Bob, you've changed. And I looked at them, and I was like, yeah, you should try it. You know, like, the evolution of who you are shouldn't be the same person as it. As it was 10 years ago. You know, like, continuing to better yourself is something that I think, you know, not only as a business owner, but the evolution of who you are as a human, as a leader needs to continue to grow. And I'm with you, Josh. Like, growth is something that's huge for me, and contribution is another element of what I like to be able to. To accomplish during the day and, you know, being able to help advance our society and our clients. And, you know, for us, it's pretty cool, because working with people like you guys, you know, if I can help support you guys in. In growth and contribution and growing your business and helping more people and impacting more lives indirectly, you know, with the hundreds or thousands of clients that we're working with, we're having a huge impact. And I'm sure you guys feel the same way, you know, for everybody that you're building a new structure for or an arm of a building or a renovation or a deck or whatever, it looks like it's increasing the joy and happiness and fulfillment that individuals have and probably families and generations, you know, that you're impacting from the cool work that you guys do. So that is something that's super fulfilling for me as well. And again, amazing, the work that you guys do. Josh, what is the. What is the number one challenge? Or maybe not the number one challenge, but what is a challenge that you feel like you guys face in the business, or maybe even something that you've overcome and how you overcame it?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think as I reflect on it, we're kind of in the middle of it, but then Herman kind of touched on it earlier, so systems. Right. And especially in a small business, in the small business world, when, you know, the key principles are often taking on the key roles and things just kind of flow to Herman and Josh. Well, decisions always flow to Herman and Josh. So the key challenge really for us is, you know, if we get hit by a truck tomorrow, as a friend of mine would say, is, if I get hit by the beer truck, like, does this business keep running? And of all the ways to go, the beer truck's probably not the worst one. But at the end of the day, like, we have to systemize our team and systemize our business so that things keep rolling and we can deliver and repeat their delivery consistently. Right? So that's the biggest challenge. And certain roles are easier than others. So in some ways, I've extracted myself or been able to have more flexibility by systemizing, say, finance and HR and those sorts of things, whereas sales is obviously a little more complicated at times. Right.

So, yes. And, you know, I think there's. So for me, there's a couple elements there. One, I think systemization is something that you can avoid as an entrepreneur until you can't. And, you know, I feel like I tried to avoid it, too. We got up to maybe about 40 people, and at that point, I could still pull. I was still the puppet master, right. I could still be able to do this and keep track of everything. But, you know, as a leader, you want to continue to evolve, you want to grow. Those systems have to come into play, otherwise you lose accountability. And even if you have a great culture and you're aligned on, you know, your purpose and your why, and here's the core values that you follow, you know, the accountability of delivery becomes challenging at that. At that time, without any sort of system or documentation or accountability, so. Completely agree. I think the other part, and I think you touched on it, and I think it's a little bit by design. It's that, you know, when you're growing a company and you're building a company, you actually get to design it the way that you want it to be. So even if there are systems and. And I know we're thinking of Herman in this situation where he's still really involved in the sales. There's a part of it, Herman, that I'm guessing you just love the sales part of it, like, by design, you like to go out, create new relationships, help, you know, showcase the great work that your company does and share that with people. Is that too far of a stretch, or is that pretty fair?

No, that's pretty fair. I think, you know, that's the beauty of what I get to do. I'm on the leading edge of it. I get to hear customer feedback directly. And, you know, one of the things we say in our business, too, is that we want to do construction without the drama. And that I think that really resonates the clients, right? They're used to watching HGTV and these shows and projects that go over budget and schedules that get elongated and, you know, crappy workmanship hidden behind the drywall. And so they're often that relationship that I get to start and embark upon for most of these clients is a little bit, you know, has a little bit of fear, right. Like, what am I. Who am I actually signing on with? And so that's the. The beauty of is I get to see it at the front edge, but then I also get to work within the team because in reality, everybody comes to work and they want to work without drama. They want to show. They want to leave home and go to a spot that they love to work at and work with people that share the same values as them and want to do well. So when you're all in cohesive with that desire to work without drama, it becomes very easy to start to recognize drama, call it out. And I think it just extends outwards. So your vendors, they don't want to work with drama. They don't want to work with a construction company that's always back charging them and treating them unwell. So that starts to flow out. And I think that's when you say you get to shape a business. I think that's what I think is really interesting. Right. And that's kind of ties into, you know, our vision is that we want to enrich lives by building beauty. Right. In a better way. So I think, you know, we're entrusted with a business and we're blessed with. With this organization. I mean, yes, there's been tough days, and there's days where I would have sold it for $100 if you came in and offered me that for my share, and I would have walked out. But the real beauty is working with the people that we get to work with day in and day out. And then, yeah, for me, I love architecture, so I get to work with people and talk architecture. So I need systems. So Josh is helping me, you know, because I'm probably your typical sales guy that just loves to go out and knock out a deal and come back and throw it on the desk and have someone else run with it. But so the systems are what really gives me the beauty of doing what I love to do. I just. As an organization, we need to make sure that the systems don't make it into bureaucracy. But keep that entrepreneurial spirit, allow these things to happen without the drama, and then just allow the customer to have a. Have a good experience in the end.

Yeah, absolutely. And we're going to share at the end all of the contact information for you guys. But I want to point out, like, I've watched your. Your YouTube videos on some of, you know, the projects that you guys have created, and they're phenomenal. Right? And the scale of some of these facilities that you guys build is like mind blowing. It's very cool. So anybody who wants to check them out, I'm going to include all of their contact info at the end to see what these guys are up to. Because they're really building a world class organization that does world class work, which is very incredible to be part of. So speaking of being part of, I know we have this great relationship and typically I would say, you know, we, we offer a virtual CFO related service. But I think it's evolved and I think continuously going to evolve in how we collaborate with each other. But it's almost evolved to creating an advisory sort of board that I sit on there from a finance perspective and maybe a little bit of strategy as well. But one of the things that we get to do on a regular basis is go over sort of the performance, the financial performance of the organization. And not that I want to get into that specifically, but want to ask you guys, you know, there's a pretty core metric and maybe Josh, I'll throw this to you. Pretty core metric that we focus on in those meetings. And when I talk to a lot of business owners, it's one of the elements that I feel like they're missing is defining what is really pushing the organization forward. If you're thinking of a metric, a critical driver that, you know, if you can push that to the next level in a positive way, that it really drives performance of an organization, yours is a little bit different and I feel like unique. But you know, for anybody in the construction space who's observing or listening to this, you know, I would love for you guys to maybe share what that main core metric is for post.

Yeah, totally. So, yeah, I kind of took over the books about four years ago. @ that time, Herman was doing sales and controller in his spare time, which was going swimmingly. He loved that.

But.

And often the way our partnership works is Herman throws ideas out there and I filter sum and try to find the one or two good ones. And anyways, so at one point, just the challenge we had is how to like, you know, from a financial perspective, we'd have like months where you made lots of money, next month you lost lots of money. And then, you know, overall we're doing okay, but it's just, yeah, if you lose, if you lose lots of money, you don't sleep well that weekend. And you know, so you're always trying to figure out how do we have consistent reports that, that we actually believe in trust. And so Hermer had this idea that, hey, why don't we start with, you know, the. Essentially the resource that we have the least of. Right? And so for us, at the end of the day, we're selling labor, we're selling our team.

Right.

It's all about our team. I can't just, you know, I can't scale without our team. And so we look at basically our man hours for everything. So the biggest metric in our business is return on man hour.

Yeah, and it's good too, because it, you know, the more available resources you guys have, the more you push your revenue line, the more you push projects across the goal line. And it's, you know, it's interesting and it's fantastic to see, you know, as the business continues to have, you know, construction world, we're going to have cyclical sort of timelines where maybe we can't get permits quick enough because townships are changing, or maybe weather comes into play and, you know, we've got some cold weather and it holds us back from, you know, building a foundation to get a project started. But it is incredible to watch that as a very key metric that drives your business consistently. So the more time we can, in your business, get people on the ground and working on those projects, the more successful your business is. Are there any other metrics that you guys think are valuable in the business? I know, you know, Herman, maybe I'll throw it over. From a sales perspective, are there any sales metrics that you try and look at in the business to know that you're heading in the right direction?

Maybe, but I wouldn't talk about them. I'd probably go right back to return on man hours. And the reason I would do that is because in sales, you know, we'd often look at what's your profit margin. Right. But what we found was that once we actually figured out our limiting factor of how much revenue we can pump through the year is. Is the size of our construction team. So the question is, is how much revenue can you make with each hour? Because that's the most valuable resource you got. Everything else is adding to it. Right. But you can't grow your team up to a certain limit. So when we set up our budget, that's how it starts. How many man hours are going to put through this year? Is it going to be 60,000 man hours? And if it's 60,000 man hours, how much. How much business are we going to do? Who's going to be honorable, honored to have these men work on their. On their Project. And so now from a sales perspective, that starts to define which jobs and which bids we go after. And sometimes the customer tells us that, right? So we bid on a project and I look at the return on man hours and I think, oh, it's too low. And so I have to put more margin on it just because that's what it takes to run our business and run our people through. And then we present it to a client and they say, oh, you know what, you're way out to lunch. We say, yep, sorry, thank you. The opportunity, we move on and then we get other jobs, which we land. And we're like, wow, that was pretty cool. And maybe our, our over, over our margin overall is down, but our return on man hours is up. So it's really trying to find what's the right mix. And like we've had projects where we've gone in and just framed 20 houses or 40 houses in a subdivision and you come out with ridiculously gross margin. But then when you actually factor it out, you look at your return on man hours because it's all labor, it doesn't cover the business. And we've had it the other way around where you sub out a ton of work to, let's say concrete, a lot of high concrete component, and you sub it out to trades and you take a markup on that. Well, if you factor that in on return on man hours, it makes your, it makes your returns better. So it really created this, this metric that allowed our business to find success. And our customers told us what business we needed to be in just by pricing it right. And then the beauty side of it is once you, once we understood that, we now could do our work in progress, which is, was our biggest accounting nightmare. And as Josh mentioned, this up and down swing from month to month was all based on how do we calculate our wip. And once we realized, you know, what we're not going to take, we're not going to take revenue on trade work. We're going to take revenue on man hours only and record it in the books. And once we did that, we started to see our financial reporting just smooth and right out. So now we can close each month within two, three weeks. When we're closing a month, we're forecasting the next month. So we know exactly how our business is tracking. We know where cash is starting to, you know, get tighter, constricted or where it gets a little better. And so now we really get the sense of a pulse of our business that is really helpful when you're managing your business, and then, yeah, it allows us to hop on a call with you. It sound like we at least got our stuff together. So, you know, that's the beauty part about it, that this advisory board that we have with yourself and our HR advisor, Steve, and. And then with some key members of our team just allows us all to be ready and come to the table with all our numbers together. It creates accountability in the organization. And because we have this. This key, this critical number of, you know, man hours or return on man hours for us, we now have ability to manage our business forward in a way that's been quite consistent.

I love that. And, you know, if there's a takeaway. Well, I think there's two things. One, I want to highlight a second, but I think for anybody listening, you know, you need to find your critical number, and when you do, you can start to see how your business can be influenced in a positive way going forward. And, you know, I know you guys do that extremely well. And I think the clarity on that, whether it's one number or it's, you know, a few key metrics, having those really well defined and monitoring them is so important to a business's health and financial success. Herman, you said something in there, though, that I want to highlight. And I think this goes to the culture and the values that you guys bring, and this is why I like working with you guys so much. You said when you were talking about a sale and someone essentially saying, we want post to come and do this development, you referred to that as the honor they would have for the talented people, people on your team to deliver this product for them. And I think, you know, that is such a. And I probably didn't phrase that exactly the way that you did, because I think you phrased it so beautifully. It's so cool. And it's something, too, that I would love your team to hear that, because that's just how you guys feel. That's the passion that you guys have for what you do, and the care and concern and excitement to share the skills of the team that you guys have built as well. And I think, you know, as an entrepreneur, that's what we're really. When we start building a team, that's what we're trying to build is something that, you know, other people have the honor to receive the service and the skills of the team that we've put together. And it's like proud parent moment. When you watch your kid excel at something, it's really cool to feel the passion of what you Just shared about your team and how capable and talented they are. So any other thoughts on that? It was something. I feel you said it, and I didn't want to go past it. I want to give you the opportunity to finish your point, but man, oh, man, was that ever a powerful leadership trait for an incredible organization.

Yeah, I think it works both ways. Right. It's an honor. It's an honor for our clients to work with us, but it's also an honor for us to work with them. Right. So it's, it's, it's mutual. And I think that's where that win, win in business comes in. Play. In play. And then we, you know, we have the ability to enrich lives, and that's really what we say is our ultimate vision. Right. We, we're, we're given this beautiful business that, you know, sometimes we might wince about, but yeah, it's a blessing to be able to work with people day in and day out. And our top value, you know, that we have is put. Put people first. And so because relationships are the most important thing we build in the end of the day. Right. If we treat our clients like friends, we say, and our team like family. And if you were in our office or worked with our office, I think, you know, most people would say that. So we, we allow our team to have some flexibility in where they work, whether they, you know, certainly in the office team on construction, it's pretty tough. But even then, you know, we're, we're very accommodating about asking for time off for vacation or looking after maybe a child who's going through a tough time in life. And these kind of things, I think are just critical to, to being human beings and, and being able to bless each other. So, you know what? I think it, I think it just, it just pays dividends in the end. I think we're like a family. And so we, we, you know, we cover each other's backs as well, too. Right. So, yeah, it just creates a, creates a, I think, a powerful organization when you, when you can work that way.

Totally. And in your case, there really is. Your team really is like family because Josh, you know, kind of your brother situation there. So. But no, you know what, it's interesting. And I feel like as we continue to build a team out, the ability to build a team that can support each other in those roles, like as a small team, it's really hard when you all of a sudden lose a role. It's a big void in the organization. As much as we want to, you know, continue to support people. As we continue to build it out, there's more support with our systems. Right. Our systems allow us to bring people in to support each other. Pretty powerful. And I know from our perspective and from mine personally, understanding how to be the leader that the organization and the team needs to support them and what they need, what type of support means the most to them has been certainly a challenge and one that I've accepted head on to say, how do we continue to make this that sort of supportive environment? But I do want to say one, one part on the other side and it's, you know, making sure that our team, you know, again, small business, medium sized business entrepreneur, making sure that our team understands the performance metrics that they need to deliver for us as well. Right. And you know, I guess the beautiful thing about family is that and friendship is that it's, you know, a two way street. It's not a one way path like these people are, that are on our team, are not our children, that, you know, it's a collaborative environment. So, you know, when they support you, you support them. And again, I think it's an incredible leadership quality to make sure we're creating a very supportive environment for our teams to excel and to have their back when we need to, but they also need to have our back too. And that's, you know, for you guys, that's being your man hours, your return on man hours. So it's like, yep, we need your support here and if we have this covered, we got you as well. Right. And I think that's a. Again, I don't want to toot your horn too much, but I think that's why you guys have created such a powerful organization and the culture is so strong, is because you guys are really great leaders in this. Josh, not sure if you have any thoughts on this as well, but you know, I could probably talk about organizations and teams and leadership all day, but. But if you have anything you'd like to throw in on this as well, I'd love to hear it.

Yeah, I mean we could talk in the hour about that. Right? But I think we, Yeah, I do a lot of the hiring. Right. So in my, in my mind, and I have to say it starts already in recruitment, like building a team. It's not just once or here.

Right.

So it's really quite a process. And I started hiring, I was, I think I was like 21 years old. I was a fish out of water. And so I grew my way out of it. Right. So I started with the strengths finder, I think a book, I guess Tom Rath, he wrote the book. They tried Myers Briggs for a bit and finally I said around the Enneagram and we did Enneagram training with our staff in house as well. But it's easier to take care of folks when you actually know them. Right. And so our team knows each other.

Like it.

It adds a huge component.

And.

And then lady, I don't know if you heard of Patrick Lenclioni has the widget, but yeah, so I just kind of include those two. But from our perspective, like being able to know each other is. And knowing who you hire and putting people in roles where they can actually succeed is like 80% of the battle. Right. So just, yeah, makes life a lot easier when you're in the right role.

And I love that. So I'd love to just sort of segue in here to say, you know, I know you guys have created incredible things. I mean, you've built a great team, you've got a strong culture. What does the next stage look like for post? Like, what are you guys, as far as goals go? What does the future look like for your business?

Yeah, so I was offered to go to a conference and I went to it about a month ago and it was on midlife crisis for like an entrepreneurs. And I first saw it, I thought, oh, that doesn't apply to me. I'm so young. But I'm sitting there, I'm thinking, yeah, you know, there's some science around it that this midlife crisis, you know, on average hits people around 41 years of age. And unfortunately, I'm north of that.

Yeah, I just happen to be 41, so that's, that's a little scary, but carry on.

There you go. So I'm north of that. So, yeah, long story short, I think, you know, we're. We're. We've been thinking about that, right? Like, where is our business going to be and how reliant is it going to be on. On Herman and how reliant is it going to be on Josh and how healthy is that? And so, yeah, we start thinking about, okay, where do we want the business to go and, and if we really, truly believe in our business and we believe in our people and that we can bring value and we can enrich lives and we can bless each other, then, then I think we're called to just continue to grow our business in a responsible way. Right. To be good stewards of it. And so from our perspective, we look at that and say, okay, so what is our future? What does our future look like? And so a couple years ago, we said, you know what, in a couple years time, one of these summers, Josh and Herman are going to take off the full summer. And it's not really about us taking off for vacation for the summer. That's not really the point. The point is, can our business stand on its own two feet, not reliant on, you know, the. The entrepreneur that's inside the business that's holding everything together. And so we've made, I would say, great headway in that. In the sense that, you know, Josh himself already currently is an acting CEO for another business that's doing, you know, about 25 million and is out of our business three to four days a week. And so that's really pushed our team to grow, and having systems in place allows that to happen. So we've watched our finance team flourish. We brought on a new cfo, and he's fell right into our systems and in our. In our perspective, is thriving and our HR team is, is doing well, and we're recruiting without drama. And that, I think that's, that's. That's so exciting for people. Now the challenge is, is how do we start to unravel myself out of the business? Right. So, yeah, so that's a growth for us. I do a lot of, you know, because I get involved in the sale in the early front clients, and our team can cling a little bit too much to myself, and unfortunately, that's not always healthy because, you know, someone who has maybe not been in the business as long as can do more things than I can do, you know, I can't handle everything. And so I, I learned to lean on people. And we're starting to really focus on growing our project managers and sales, our sales team, and eventually allow it so that our team can stand. And for Josh and myself, you know, our. We're our next chapter. We're looking at it saying, you know, how can we bless others? And maybe our journey in business has some learning curve to it that we can shorten for others. So, you know, we've made many mistakes. My father once said that we'd make mistakes to learn, and that just sounded so wrong at the time, but in hindsight, it was right. And so here we are, you know, and now we find ourselves helping other businesses. We listen to them and we hear their challenges, and we're like, huh? We went through that. That, for us, was five years ago, or that was three years ago. It was 13 years ago. You know, and here's how we handled it. And we can identify the symptoms to them pretty quickly because, you know, we're not folks coming in, sitting at their boardroom table like a consultant who came out of school or out of a big organization. We've got a few scars, and, you know, if we can shorten the. Shorten the pain cycle for them and advance that learning curve, that, that's. That feels rewarding for us to be able to do that for them. Right. So in a nutshell, I think that's kind of where. What excites us. Yeah.

Yeah. Josh, anything you want to add there?

Well, I was going to say it's interesting how things have come full circle. I think the first time I met you, Bob, your first question was, so, what are your dreams for the business? And, like, I don't know, stay alive, make payroll.

Right.

So, yeah, it takes a while for your business to mature to the point where you're allowed to dream. Right? So. And yeah, we still need to take care of our foundational business or legacy business. And, you know, we can't do one of these best and the other. But, yeah, having the. Having the space and the opportunity to think about those things is pretty cool.

Yeah. And I think, you know, again, I've got this mentor that I work with, Alex Charfen, super smart guy. And for me, I'm always thinking about growth, and I think you guys are, too. But he had said something to me that, you know, maybe six months ago that I felt like it resonated with me in there where, you know, growth sometimes brings chaos with it, where it's like, okay, you know, are we growing, you know, beyond everything else? Like, are we, you know, just trying to push the limits of what we can accomplish in a short period of time? And, you know, I know you guys are focusing on systems, which I think is. Is so imperative, especially at the size that you guys are at. And, you know, we're doing the exact same thing. But he made a comment where he said it's okay to build a boring business. Right. And. And as you guys are talking about this and Herman saying, you know, Josh and I, the goal is to be able to take the summers off and have the business operate without us. It's like, yeah, that's the building of a boring business where it's very predictable, it's systemized. You know, the team knows exactly what they need to do to ensure the organization has success. And, you know, every now and again I go, you know, maybe I just need to back off of breaking Everything for a moment and consider what building a boring, predictable business could potentially look like and how that could feel. And it sounds like, you know, predictable and boring might still be a 30% growth rate, but just doing so in a calm sort of. We don't have to introduce new product or revenue lines every six months. We don't have to, you know, break in a whole new department of people or new trainings or any of that. But how do we predictably grow a business in a systemized way where it can be a little bit boring and hopefully profitable along that journey? Listen, gentlemen, this is, you know, I'm so grateful for the opportunity, one, to work with you guys, two, that you're, you were so willing to share your insights and your experience along your journey, your incredible journey of a 50 year family business, which again, congratulations on that. That's super exciting. Before I let you go, I'd love to hear from both you, Herman and Josh. You know, if you had to look back at yourself five years ago and give yourself one piece of advice which is not allowed to be run like hell, that one has to be off the table. But if you had one piece of advice that you could share with yourself five years ago, looking forward, what would that one piece of advice be?

Well, Josh, I think, yeah, there's, I think there's, there's two. I think there's, like we talked about leadership and the cohesion around your values. I think that's critical. I think the other one we talked about and probably, you know, rises to the top in many ways is, you know, for any business, you got to know your numbers. And so, yeah, you can build a good team and you can, but you can flounder if you don't know your numbers. And I don't mean just in knowing, you know, having your reporting. Well, I think the critic. Knowing your critical number is, is absolutely important. It allows your whole business to, to sing from the same song sheet. And then you start, you call it boring, Bob. But I would say you get, you get harmony. And harmony can be beautiful, right when you're, when you're all singing from the same song sheet. And so I think that's, I think that's, that's critical and I think, I think part of that journey for us was, you know, sort of figuring out critical numbers. But also I think our connection with yourself has been very helpful for us because you're not an accountant that we're reporting to once a year that's giving us back our financial numbers. And then with that, a big Tax ledger, what was filed with the government. And that was then our experience in past. Right. I think what's beautiful is, is that we're, we're hopping onto a call with you every month and with our advisory board, and you're engaging with us, you're challenging us. Why is our, why are our hours down and seeing the impact between hours and revenue and understanding our numbers and thinking about business and not simply as just numbers, but also just saying that's a scoreboard. So it's not about profitability, but profitability is telling you how your business is operating and how that's hitting the marketplace and how your team is actually thriving. So the connection of it all, all comes back together to the numbers in many ways.

Yeah. Well, and Herman, that was beautifully said. I know harmony is beautiful, but truthfully and again, I appreciate the fact that you guys and other successful business owners do have a focus on making sure that you don't put your head in the sand and ignore key metrics in your business and those financial reports as well. It's like, how do we learn from this and continue to get better so that we can deliver the world class products and services that our team, our skill team, is so proud of? So thank you for that. Appreciate that. And again, it's always great to be able to challenge the status quo in any business and you guys are always on the cutting edge of building something even better. So I love that. Josh, what's your piece of advice to yourself from five years ago?

Dear? I thought I was off the hook there because Herman had two pieces of ice, but.

Yeah, I know. No, not a chance.

No chance. No chance.

Oh, dear.

Five years ago.

Yeah, I don't know. I.

One of the things that always, I think once you have alignment at the top. So once we had, you know, back in the day, we called it the four headed monster, but once her and I kind of have like full alignment around our values, who we were, where we're going, it just made business so easy. And so I often say that most business decisions are really simple. They're just not easy. Right. So sometimes if I had a penny, every time I talk myself out of a decision that had to be made, I wouldn't be working. Right. Like you'd always. I'd always be, you know, obsessing over how to make something work. And now I just look at it and say, you have to square pegging around. Oh, like, let's not waste our time. Right. So yeah, I think at the end of the day, just accepting things for what they are and reacting to it. So that's more from a business side. If I had to give myself advice from a personal side. Yeah, read a book a week. I started doing that about probably a year ago. I'm not sure I hit a book a week. But yeah, if anybody, I think that's younger than me, which is. I'm pretty young, so it's not many people, but yeah, it's awesome. Like, I just go to the thrift store, like, when I'm camping, and I just. I come out with like 15 books and wife's like, oh, my goodness. Right. But, yeah, there's no. No faster way to grow than to, you know, have someone's life experiences summed up in 50 pages like your book. That's good, right? So, yeah, love it.

And to. And I love that, Josh. And I think that's super powerful because knowledge, you know, again, I think for all of us, if we were to look five years back, we go, wow, look at how much we've grown as leaders, as human beings based on experiences. Some of them not great experiences, but, man, did we learn from them. Right? And I think one thing you guys also do is you. You're very good at investing in yourself and improving yourself. I know, Josh, we were just talking about a similar event that we'll probably both end up at next year down in Austin, Texas, and, you know, thinking of investing in systemization or growth and learnings and teachings and. And, you know, investing in people and working with people like you guys, who are now starting to coach different businesses and support those businesses because of the accelerated learning path of working with you versus, you know, learning it all on your own, I think that's a pretty powerful tool. And so maybe to just tie on with the read a book a week, it's invest in those that have maybe already done it before and can help get you there faster, but also continue to invest in your learning because it's super powerful. Gentlemen, this has been an absolute pleasure. I want to thank you both so much. And again, it's. It's something that I'm. I'm super proud of and what we've built in that I get to work with incredible people like you guys who are doing awesome things. So thank you guys for this. Ladies and gentlemen, this has been the Wealthy Entrepreneur Podcast. If you like this episode, please leave your comments below. Like it? Share it. You know, if there's anybody who you feel would benefit from some of the learnings that we chatted about today, whether you're in the construction industry, critical drivers, building a team, alignment of culture, or, you know, even any of the passive sort of comments that have happened today. Share that with people. We're here to try and empower individuals and entrepreneurs just like you to make a massive global impact together. So if there's anything that we can do to help support you. Any questions, put comments in below. Gentlemen, can you share your website and maybe some of your how to. How to get a hold of you the best way? We're going to include everything we can, but if you want to include maybe the easiest way that people could reach out and potentially work with you guys, what is that? How do we get a hold of you?

Probably the simplest way from the construction perspective would be post structures dot com. That's. Yeah, you'll find your phone number and all our critical contacts in there.

Thank you, guys. Yeah, I'll include all of your links to your YouTube videos and everything that I referenced earlier. We'll have your. Your website and all your contact information. Thank you once again, gentlemen. Thank you everybody for checking this out today. Look forward to seeing you again next week.