Art vs. Content - Why Social Media Keeps Artists Frustrated (Live Discussion)

Hi, everybody. Super excited to chat with you guys today. I'm bringing on some friends of mine that are part of our alumni mastermind group. So these are people that have gone through design your creative career with us. And today we're going to talk about why content is also art, which I hope is a bit of a controversial, like, topic for y', all, because, honestly, it is for me, too. It's something that I sort of struggle with a lot. And we've been doing these little lives. We're sort of swapping, like, who. You know, who sort of takes. Takes the charge. And so today I was like, well, we could. We could just sort of hang out, but I thought, why not have a bit of a juicy conversation while we're hanging out? So let's do it. Let's bring on the folks here. So we'll probably have a couple more people joining us as we go. So this is Susan Taylor Brown. Susan, why don't you introduce yourself and what you do and all that?

I'm Susan Taylor Brown. I am a fiber artist, a former book writer that turned to art to kind of deal with writer's block and then never went back to it. And I am obsessed with texture, so I will do anything I can to create texture out of fibers and fabric.

Love it. What about you, Hannah and Nemo?

Yes, we are moving mosaic artists, which is what you see behind us here. We make our work from aluminum cans, and we actually left the corporate world of architecture several years ago to live our dream of just being entrepreneurs and creating and being able to give others a voice that might not have it.

Yeah, I love it. And seeing you guys, all of y', all, like, really flourish into the messages that you have has been super, super cool. Please go check out both Susan and Hannah and Nemo's stuff. Susan is the most active here on YouTube. She's actually streaming this on her channel as well. And Hannah and Nemo are the Most active on TikTok and. And Instagram. So check that out. So while we're getting ready to chat about some stuff, I'd love it. For those of you that are with us live, would you type in the biggest thing that you don't like about social media? What's the thing about social media that you just can't stand? Because I would love to just hit on those things today. And I want to start by, like, really kind of asking the question that we titled this under. Like, do you think content is art? Why or why not? And let's start with you, Susan. What do you think.

Well, part of it is the. Okay, the.

Should.

Should content be art? And I know that I am like a lot of people where I stop the scroll when I see those really beautifully filmed and edited reels on Instagram, I don't do TikTok, but on. On Instagram, I'll stop when I look at those. And I realized just recently that while I love to look at the videos, they are not people that inspire me to go look at their art. Most of the time I. I look at those beautifully constructed videos and I think, well, that's nice. That was like a little moment of Zen. But it's not really anything that makes me want to go look at their art and think about buying it.

So whether it should be or not, I don't know whether it is. I don't think mine is. I don't think my content is art. Of course, now I've got your voice in my head saying that, you know, the content, the art is me. And so then if I'm just showing up, and I will say that when I do videos where I am on camera, like on Instagram, those always do a whole lot better than if I'm doing a reel where it's just showing art. I don't know. I don't know the answer I'm looking forward to.

Yeah, that's a fair. That's a fair assessment. I like not knowing because I, you know, while I think sometimes it is, I also think sometimes it's totally not. And I think finding that distinction is what I hope to sort of maybe come up with today. So what about you guys, Hannah and Nemo? What's your thoughts?

I'm.

We can hear you. Can you hear us?

Can you.

We're trying to stream it over.

Yeah, we're trying to actually stream this as well. And I'm.

Oh, I see. Okay.

So sorry. Yeah, guys.

We're live, everybody. Don't worry, we're live.

There's gonna be some technical difficulties at the beginning.

Yeah.

So I'm glad it's you and not me.

For at one point in time, I would never have thought of content on social media as being an art form, much less one that I would enjoy.

I was the person who would scroll and lurk and. And maybe drop a comment here and there, meanwhile posting pictures of our pretty art on our feed and not getting much engagement at all.

And that is.

The limit that my brain placed on what social media was and, like, how it could be useful. I didn't see us as, like, content creators at all. And, well, it's not content, it's art. Well, yes, but I didn't.

Oh, here we go. Yeah.

You know, we're not talking about if you're making content. It's, it's, it's. Is it art?

Yeah. Well, that's what I'm getting at. Is that it? Eventually I came around and I started to feel that it was an art form. And not only that, but I'm good at it. And I've never done it before. I've never like written a script or directed like a little video or anything like that. And then started to do it and then I started to realize like how enjoyable it is and how I could view it as an art form. And it's like just another segment of like what we do now. So we make.

And I've, I've always thought every. Everything's art and everybody's an artist.

Yeah, you've always said that, so. But I didn't see it that way.

Yeah.

You know, Hannah, you know, when I look at your, your stuff that you do, I mean, I love your, your reels and I always stop to watch your reels. I don't have to comment. But what I love is that you have managed to straddle this fence between being this fine filmmaker, because you are authentically you. We see you out there following the slime mold and you're working on your art and you're, you're, you know, doing your modeling this clothes that you've made. So to me, I guess it, it's not whether social media is art or art is social media, it's the artists presentation of everything. Like, I would watch a hundred of Hannah's videos before I'm going to go looking for, well, who did that beautiful thing where they were doing a watercolor painting out in this fake forest. And you know, I'm not going to go looking for that person.

Yeah.

So God bless. It's back to, you know, what Lennon been talking to us about for a while, right?

Yeah.

I think it's like due to what Lennon has like.

Opened our eyes to, I guess. Yeah.

Like, oh, here we go. Like brainwashed, brainwashing, y'.

All.

Yeah, we've been brainwashed into being better at what we do.

Yeah.

How dare he.

I love it.

Maria, you made it.

Hello.

Hi, Maria. So we're talking about the. Is content art? Why or why not? So I would love it if you would answer that question. But first of all, I want you to tell people who you are and what you're all about.

Sure. Yeah, I'm Maria Gerke. I'm.

Currently. I'm a watercolor artist.

I.

Most of my art is related to mindfulness, because that's a very important topic for me. I also have a podcast with a friend about that topic called Becoming Mindful Podcast. And my watercolors are mostly. At the moment, I'm focusing on something called portals to a refuge or portals to a place where you feel safe. So a lot of my. It's usually landscapes or scenes that evoke that feeling or that bring people into a space where they can be. Can feel safe and tranquil and. Yeah. Just relaxing from all of the stresses and worries from the outside. Yeah. And My.

Website is livelovemaria.com and I usually go under that handle as well on social media.

Yeah, I love it. I love Maria's like, she's our classic. Like, I don't want the fast cuts and the, like, the Swift edits and all the things which I absolutely love. I love that there are so many variances in taste in this community. You know, like, I like this thing and I like that thing. Right. And that's sort of what this is all about. So with that sort of in mind of, like, what you do and what you like, Maria, do you consider content to be art? Why or why not?

Yeah, I believe so.

Especially lately, the way I've been handling the content that I put out on social media, there is a lot of thought that goes in there, you know, from.

What'S mindful and what the art that I'm presenting evokes or certain stories that I, you know, talk about. When I create these stories there and then when I put them out there and when I, you know, voice over a time lapse, for example, there is.

Kind of an. There is also an artistic process or creative process that goes into creating the content. And when you look at the piece of content, a video or a post, there is, you know, it is in itself, I feel, also a piece of art.

That, you know, fulfills similar criteria. And you kind of can look at it also, as you know, you also have the art form of film and, you know.

Those kind of things, like making covers for things or all of that is kind of similar. So when you make a piece of content on social media.

You'Re expressing yourself in a way through a media. Now if I put this in, like a watercolor painting, then I'm expressing myself, my innermost feelings or some sort of message or something in form of a visual cue. Right. In something that I put on a piece of Paper with paint. But a video is just the same, I think.

Yeah. So Zana says. I think intention and play is the differentiating factor. Because what is art? I really liked that they use that intention and play.

Because I think of that a lot. I think when I think about this, for me personally, I think, what is the intent of the thing?

And I use Seth Godin's definition of art, which is like, art is something we do that is intended to help someone else or change someone else in some way like that. That's. And without change, there is no art. Now that's my definition. You get to have your own. Like, that's the beauty of art. Right? Like, nobody's saying that you're right or wrong. I'm just saying, like, this is, this is how I see it. This is what keeps me motivated and honestly, what keeps me motivated to do this business. Because there was a time coming from the music world of like touring 10 years and then getting into studio work and doing all these things and being like, I want to start this business that helps artists, you know. And I get questions on like tick tock, where it's like, hey, are you a full time artist? And I'm like, yeah, I think I am. Even though I'm not. You know, my, my medium is about, is through this, is through like conversation and coaching and, and those kinds of things. And. And some people would disagree with that. Right. But.

I have to hold true to that because otherwise, like, how am I making a difference for somebody? Using my strengths, you know, Go for it. Maria, what you got?

Yeah. So when you said like to this question, are you a full time artist? I feel there's also this.

My question that came up in my mind right then was, why does that matter that you're a full time artist? Like, can you be an art? Like, you don't have to be a full time artist to be an artist.

Right.

And I think that's a very important distinction.

Beautifully said.

Yeah, especially for me too. I'm not doing this full time, my art, because I'm not making enough money off of it yet that I can. But that doesn't mean I'm not an artist, you know.

Thousand percent.

And then the same for you. I mean, you're doing something, but I think you're also right seeing like you're a full time artist because, you know, if you're doing something.

That is a art form, then that also works, but it doesn't have to be.

Yeah. And I think communication is totally a part of it, you know, And Especially we get into. Now we get into the gummy works of like, where you're trying to sell your thing and all that. And communication is such a part, like an important part of that. Right, Susan?

Yeah. I just wanted to step back and say, you know, artists, I mean, then it's a matter of how do you define an artist? Is an artist, you know, traditionally in our brain, do we say I'm an artist because my work is in a gallery, my work's not in a gallery, but I'm still an artist. Are you an artist if you decorate these intricate cakes that suddenly look like pieces of wood or shells on the beach? Yeah, you're an artist. But do people think of a cake decorator as an artist? If you are using your creative muscles to create something that hasn't been there before, that's only in your head. To me, that's the definition of an artist.

Yeah, that's mine too. I would say. Well, two things for me is one, if you make art, you're an artist.

And the other one is if you.

Consider yourself an artist, you're an artist.

Yeah. And that's huge. Right? So let's use that. That's a great jumping off point, Maria, because I asked people, and I'll ask it again. For those of you, if you're just joining us, we're talking about the idea of content and art, whether or not content is art. And you know, I said in the email, this is for those people that feel like social media is a struggle for you, that it's overwhelming, that maybe you feel like you don't have a lot to offer when it comes to, like, putting a message online. So the purpose of this conversation is really around that. So I'm going to read some of these off and then I want you guys like to sort of grab a hold of the ones that resonate with you. Okay? So Apple Tree Valley says my biggest issue.

With social media is that even when I'm not filming for TikTok or YouTube, I still think about it. And that interrupts the process making me feel guilty, and then I regret not doing it. Okay, so that's one. Let's see here. I'm gonna go back.

I know there was a couple. Oh, here we go. Aaron says trends, right? That's a big one. Sincerely, Iris says that I have to be almost cool online. By the way, a lot of these people, this is really awesome. A lot of these people are part of our Creative Impact Academy, which is sort of our entry level community. If you want to. If you're you know, want to check that community out and you're watching this, you're not a part of it. You're totally welcome to. We can give you, you a dollar trial for a week. Just type in the chat that you want to check it out and we'll send you a link.

So G says, I struggle with the distraction, so I keep the amount of apps to a minimum.

Modi says, needing to post much more often than makes sense when creating art, which is this fluid, non standard thing.

So any of this like hit for any of y' all and how, how would you kind of.

How would you speak to this in, in terms of your own experience?

I'm hearing like I'm maybe not all of those statements you just shared, but it seems like there's a lot of like a sense of anxiety or fear maybe around showing up on your social media and like, well, if I, if I do a lot of planning and editing and creating of social media content, then when am I going to spend time making my art? And that's a really valid concern. Took me a while to come to terms with that because our art is very time consuming to make. And I think that what shifted for me is to start to think about I'm going to be making the art one way or another, that I'm compelled to do it. So we're going to make the art together. We're going to make it. It's going to take time.

Even if I just prop my phone up for 30 seconds and just say what's on my mind at the moment, that I'm choosing colors or something like that, that is content. So once that occurred to me, then I started to find all these different ways to pull content out of what I was going to be doing anyway to the point that didn't feel like it was anything extra at all.

Yeah, I love that.

And it just went from being really, really hard and challenging to like, I don't have time for this and this is a nuisance to this is easy. Why haven't I been doing it the whole time?

Yeah.

And the coolness factor. Yeah, the coolness factor. I can speak to that too. Like, I do not see us as being cool.

Well, I'm cool.

Okay.

Yeah, my mom thinks I'm cool. Okay. But yeah, seriously, like you see influencers and you see people talking about like getting made up for making a video. Like women, hairdos, makeup, men too, practicing what you're gonna say, being having like an Instagram worthy house or being in an Instagram worthy location. That's just. To me, that's total garbage. Because when we get a lot of engagement on. On a post or a video, it's the ones where we are our most non made up, the most raw, the most real. Like I said, I have had food in my teeth before, and I've had a booger in my nose before. My hair is usually a mess. And those are the ones that do better. And I think it's because we're not trying to be influencers. We are just being there. We're just like, this is who we are, and this is what we want to share with you today. And it doesn't have to be everything. I don't talk about going to the bathroom, although I could. You know, some people say things like that. Like, I don't want to tell everybody every detail of my life all the time. I don't want to tell people when I'm going to the bathroom. I don't think about it that way. It's like.

But also at the same time, like, I've. We've gone, you know, days or weeks without posting anything just because we didn't feel like posting anything.

Yep.

I never want it to feel like a stress for me. So if I have a day where I'm just, like, not into it, then I don't do it.

Yeah. Beautiful. And, Susan, you've done such a great job using what we're doing right now, like, as an opportunity to build your community. You know, you just celebrated with us that you hit 13k on your YouTube channel. Huge.

Right? Okay. Whoo. Let's go. Yeah.

Okay.

But. But true confession here, I did use Streamyard's feature touch up your appearance when I entered the studio. So, you know, you guys have no idea what's happening behind this right now.

You look completely different normally.

But I think, Lennon, a couple years ago, you gave us an exercise about. And I can't remember the exact exercise, but it was sort of like a challenge to go introduce yourself to your social media people online, do a full, you know, in front of the camera thing. And it scared the crud out of me. I was terrified. And it's really interesting because I used to do public speaking all the time to go promote my books. And that was fine, being out, you know, in the real world. But suddenly something was going to be on film, and it was going to be there forever, because the Internet is forever. Even when you take it down, it's still out there somewhere. And it was the scariest thing I have ever done. And when I Look back at those early videos, I can see how freaked out I was and how uncomfortable I was. But from there, I started showing up in my live streams, my weekly live streams, on camera. Instead of just showing what I was working on. I have two cameras so that I could have my face up there and get comfortable with it. And then started doing more things on Instagram Live. And it's been an evolutionary process, but yeah, it's that showing up and being real and not playing the compare game. Because I feel the guilt. Absolutely feel the guilt. And then from the guilt and the not feeling cool, never been sitting at the cool kids table, then I feel like I'm comparing myself to everybody else out there. But then I remind myself what I said earlier is the people that I love to follow are not the ones that have done their makeup and made everything Instagram worthy and are doing it for the sake of winning an indie film award, compared to us working artists showing what it means to be a working artist and talking about what it means to be a working artist and how freaking hard it is. You know, my followers, you know, Instagram has been the same, I don't know, probably for the last year, you know, where it's not going anywhere. And I'm like, whatever, because the people I show up to, I'm having good conversations with. And I feel like that's more real to me, more. It makes it easier because I don't have to take an hour to put on makeup and find the perfect clothes and make sure the camera angles are just right. You're going to see shadows. You're going to hear the dog barking. You're going to hear my husband laughing in the other room. That's real life. And I think that's what our audience can relate to more.

Yeah. Yeah, I do agree.

Yeah.

For me, it's kind of like that, too. There's this kind of a two step where I'm kind of like in the step two out of the things that were mentioned that were people are struggling with. Right. So number one, like, being in front of the camera and not being cool, which, yeah, absolutely. Same problem. Didn't have the right backdrop. I mean, you can see the mess behind me. It's just how it is. Right? And it took me, I think, probably a year with Lennon to go get to the point where I'm like, I don't have to be that. I can just be in front of the camera and be who I am. And I think TikTok helped with that too, because you kind of see that Shift in mentality from the Instagram Picture Perfect Influencer to on Tik Tok. People, like, are in their bed in their pajamas and talking to the camera, and people like it. And it doesn't matter because that's how people are, because people can relate to that. That's how, you know, everyone is. And even the celebrities, I mean, they run around with sweatshirts too.

But that was, like, the first thing that. I think I'm good with that. But the other part with, you know, that it's difficult to get the time and. And do all the editing and stuff like that. I still struggle with that too, where I have to tell myself, okay, you know, just make it easier. It's kind of an iteration process. I'm getting there. But, yeah, I, you know, come from a perspective of, or, you know, I don't know the technology at that moment yet. So you have, like, that learning curve, then once you get better, it gets easier, and then just the flow is a big one for me. This might be an ADHD thing, but it's like, okay, right now I want to paint, and I just can't, you know, and then I'm like, I can't do it. Like, I can't do the editing, though. But I know I have to edit because really I want to post something and then. But I, you know, it's like, hard to get into that mode. And I think there's, you know, there's some learning curves there to make it easier. But I think.

Yeah, the algorithm. You know, everyone talks about the algorithm being, you know, so unforgiving when you don't post. And I'm not really sure that's 100%, 100% true. I think there is some, you know, myths and legends that, you know, urban myths out there about that as well.

Oh, yeah, we love it. We love a good algorithmic conspiracy theory around here.

I want to say something to what? Something Maria said about TikTok, because I think it's really important to find the platforms that you feel most comfortable on. Maria actually said TikTok made it easy. I want to say the opposite. Scared the heck out of me, and I ran back away from it and back to YouTube with my tail between my legs. So, you know, and I tried it. I mean, I gave it a try for, like, three months, and I was getting followers, but I felt so much more pressure to be entertaining and not myself. I felt a completely different environment, and that's just me. And it's just really important. There are people that are doing amazing things on Instagram, Hannah and Nemo, you know, they've got conversations going. They get, you know, hundreds of likes on their. Their posts. And it's because that platform and them, they. They mesh really well. I do okay on Instagram, but I feel much more comfortable in the longer form video on YouTube. So, you know, go ahead and try all the different platforms, but where TikTok might feel like art to somebody else and might be like something that they find really easy and they love to do, you know, your thing might be doing YouTube shorts or Instagram, just photo posts or Facebook. They're not all going to work. And, you know, I left. I deleted my TikTok account. And most of the time I feel okay about that.

Yeah. And I'm going to give Susan some. Some serious credit and I'm going to give Maria some acknowledgment, too. But, you know, when I talk about Susan publicly, Susan's the. She. Well, a. She's been with me, I think, longest running, like, person in the community. She's been there since really close to the very beginning. And then the. But. But she's notorious for being like, I don't think so. I don't think I'm gonna do that.

And then she'll.

I'll be like, all right, you know, like, I'll try not to push too much. And then she'll always come around at some point and be like, just kind of like silently try it. And then be like, I told you guys, I'll try it.

I'll try it.

And I love that, though, because she's willing to. She. She. She hears what she needs to hear from herself and say, like, all right, I feel uncomfortable right now, so I'm gonna acknowledge that. And then she says, now what's the next step? Once that, like, sort of cools off? And she'll Some. Then sometimes she'll go and try it. But what she always does, and I'm acknowledging, like, the growth in this is that now she'll always go to this place of. I was overthinking it. I was making it too hard. And I've went back to the thing that I know is true to me, and that's real. That's real progress, right? Because for all of us and Maria included, when Maria started with us, she was very much like. Every question was, well, how do I do that? What's your thought about this thing? I remember very specifically all the, like, hashtag conversations, all the algorithm conversation, all the things that were, like, very specific. You know, I need to know how.

Tell me how I need to know exactly. I need a list with steps.

Yes. Yeah, give me the steps. You know, and some people don't like working with me because I don't give a lot of steps. You know, I'm a. I try to, like, ask better questions to lead you to take action. Because usually steps for many of us creatives are the things that keep us from taking action, because we're just looking for a step that will. That's the right answer, right? It's like, give me the right step and I'll maybe do that. Instead of saying, like, what's the right step for me? I'm going to go do that. I'm going to learn from it, and then I'm going to reiterate off of that thing. So I want to mention a couple comments here. There's some really, really good ones. First of all.

There was Renee's. I love this. She says, yes, content is art. I don't care if anyone views my content as art. I post for accountability. I struggle with getting time to create my art. By posting, I show myself that I make progress. I freaking love this. Renee.

Yes.

Beautiful. Because it's all about, like, we talk about it as evidence. How are you collecting evidence that. That says you're this kind of person? Because how often do we show up and say, like, well, I'm not this, because I didn't do that. Right? But every little piece of evidence starts to work in your favor. So that's beautiful. So, Erin, I want to, like, acknowledge this. She says I'm horrible for only posting three times a week. This week was nothing. Because I need to get this course finished so I can show it and start working on the full course. No, Erin, you are not horrible for only posting three times a week. You posted three times. Right?

Like, I posted.

Can we just.

Like, let's. Let's be real about this for a second, okay? Because this whole thing is an iterative process. I'm going to say that again. The whole thing is an iterative process. Building any sort of business is not, here's abcde and you're done. I wish it was that easy, but if it was, everybody have a business that was crushing right now, right? Because we'd all just have the abcde. Truth is, here's abcde. And then you have to take A and be like, actually, that's more of a G for me. And then B is really like a F, you know? And you have to find, like, your thing within that. And so you have to give yourself the Grace to say, and I'm going to use my own story here. Even in this business, we're coming up on two years of doing it full time in the process. Like, the iterative process of it for me was we started making content, we started putting it out there, and at the same time, we're building the business. So I'm creating the courses, I'm doing the stuff. So what do I have time for? What's the most important in that moment? Well, some moments it was building the course so I couldn't post as much. Right. And now we've got basically all of our curriculum built. So now what do I need to be doing? Well, now I need to be posting. I need to be doing the thing that, like, gets people in the door, you know, and I can still go back and be working on the things that are exciting to me, but I've built the business in a way that, like, allows me to put those things in that order. So, you know, we're all juggling plates and we have to give ourselves grace for that. If we don't, man, we're just gonna end up, as Susan says, like, shooting ourselves into a corner, you know, and that's, that's, that's not good at all. So.

Okay, let's see. I thought there was another one that I wanted to say. Yeah, thank you. I do agree this is a really fun. A really fun conversation. I'm enjoying this a lot.

See here. Okay. Sullynet says, trying to find the happy place of showing up authentically while also wanting to challenge myself to try new things and, or just grow and allow that. So.

That, to me, that balance. If you're trying to. Let's look at this just as the words are. You want to show up authentically while challenging yourself to try new things.

Then like, if you aren't used to showing up authentically, that is a challenge. You are trying something new and you will grow because of that.

That's it. And that should make you happy because that's an opportunity for you to just be in what you need to be in, in that moment. So I hope, I hope that empowers you a little bit. Selena? Yeah.

Any thoughts? I think that also plays into this, and that was a big. Was a big deal for me as well, is this. This whole. You're allowed to put something out there and it being a failure in a way, and then it's not really a failure because it's something you can learn from, you know, you know, not being afraid to try things out and then Saying, hey, that didn't work, or I have to tweak it.

And I know I've struggled, and I probably. I'm still struggling with it to this day where I, you know, there's things where I'm like, I should just do this. And.

Then I don't because I'm like, well, you know.

Yeah, I think the feedback I get from people continually, that it shouldn't surprise me, but it always does. They're like, I like that you didn't edit out the mistakes. I like that you showed us what didn't work and how you were going to work over it. You know, they want. Because that's what they're doing. If you're showing them how to do. If you're doing something for the first time and they're thinking, wow, I want to try that, and you muff up, they're going to say, okay, it's okay if I make a mistake, because, look, that person just made a mistake too, and they either decided to try again or put it aside and come back to it later. But when you edit out everything to make it perfect so it's influencer perfect.

You then lose that relatability to the everyday person because you don't start off doing anything for the first time being good at it.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. You don't start riding your bike and then just quit because you fell off. Right?

Yeah. Unless you're my kid.

The first bike. Right. This is too hard. I don't want to do it again.

Yeah, yeah. That's our Adeline, too. She's a bit like that. But now we got her a balance bike and she's been loving that. And she'll just go ride the street now. Like, we have a little incline and she'll just. She's like, can I go out there? And she'll just ride the street. So it's sort of the same thing. Like, you have to find their own way of. Like, they're just finding their own way of doing it, you know, figuring out, like, how do I learn this in a way that fits me, you know? So it's really interesting. Kids are. Man, I learned. I learned so much about, like, myself through my own kiddos. It's pretty, pretty awesome. Okay, so let's talk a bit about. Just to continue this. This conversation around, like, content and art and the verses thereof.

When you see somebody.

Trying to think of how to. How to propose this question in a way that doesn't feel like I'm putting somebody down, but it's Gonna sound like that anyway, so I'm just gonna lean into it. So.

To me, one of the things that.

Feels like content to me is when somebody's just putting things out there.

With.

The intent to serve themself fully, like self gratifying sort of. I just want attention for attention's sake. Now the fine line here is like that could fall in. So this is where it's getting gummy. So I'm hoping this creates some good conversation. But the fine line there is that you could almost say like a lot of entertainment is that way. Right? It's just like intended to be just that. Like is somebody just showing up to be, you know, to sort of gratify themselves or showing up to serve somebody else. So to me that's the difference between content again and sort of my definition of art being like I'm trying to help somebody or create change for someone. So I'm curious, like, where's your bullshit meter on those kinds of things when it comes to like that style of like content versus the people that you authentically love to engage with?

Yeah, I think I agree with that because I, I was, you know, when you're talking about doing it for themselves and I'm thinking about people that, you know, had some traumas or something like that and they, and do kind of like a video blog or something like that almost. And then I'm thinking, no, they're not doing it for themselves only either. So that's, you know. So yes, it makes sense that the people that are just out there like, hey, look at me and I'm awesome. Without.

You know, any. I mean, what's the value then? But I mean if someone is, for example, video blogging about their, you know, experience and their trauma, they are also doing it probably to help others not go through the same thing or heal from the same thing or find connection that they could somehow get someone to relate with. So yeah, I agree with what you're saying.

Yeah, I think it goes back to intention that was mentioned earlier. It's absolutely intention. Because you can have somebody that writes a post about the most heart wrenching trauma that they have gone through and then at the end of the post they do a couple things. One, buy my book. That's not the time to make your sale, share your story and move on. Don't make your mention of your sale there, in my opinion. Or.

There'S something glorifying them in that post and then worse than that is they will get a slew of comments. And I know we're all super busy and I'm super guilty of taking a long time to respond to comments. But if you make a heart wrenching post like that and you get connection from people and you ignore that, then you made that post for yourself. Not to serve your people because it's an opportunity to have some great connections. And then I think there's the people that go out and they're just naturally, they want to try all the fun stuff. They're just going to be goofballs. They want to do that. They're not even selling stuff. They're just, you know, they're having a good time. They're there for entertainment. They're the tiktoks of wherever you're watching videos because they're just there having a good time. They're like, you know, they've never graduated out of college. They're just doing that stuff, stuff. And that's fine. That's what's bringing them joy. And they don't have to be there for other people. But it, it depends on your intention for making your post. You know, if you want to sell me something, tell me about you. And then this goes back to stuff that London's been teaching us all for a long time. But, you know, let me get to know you and then I'm going to care a lot more when you tell me your traumatic story. And then a post or two later you can mention something even if it's just a couple hours later. But in the same post, I get turned off immediately when you twang on my heartstrings and then ask me for money in the same breath.

It feels like the year donate to this starving children.

And we unfortunately, I feel like, see that a lot with artists and this is not me shaming anybody. But it's like.

We see the posts that are like, support me because I'm broke, a broke, you know, and I just don't like that because it feels like that's so that's, that's the thing that most artists are trying to avoid. Like they don't want to be slimy salespeople. And to me, like, that's sort of like being a slimy salesperson. You're like, you're not telling me what value I get from what you create. Hannah. Yeah. What do you got?

Yes. Like there's a couple of thoughts in my head right now immediately thinking about that we were next door neighbors at an art festival one year with another artist who was telling every person who came into her booth that she had cancer and that any sale Half of the sale would go to the cancer charity that she was involved with. And it was just all day long, cancer talk.

I was recovering from cancer at that very moment myself. And I didn't say a word about it to anyone. I felt like it was so sleazy. And I think that people pick up on that. And that brings me to the other thought that I've been having lately is the concept of fake it till you make it, which has been around for a long time. And artists will, or rather our sale gurus will kind of preach this to people that you should fake it till you make it because the audience won't know the difference. And I feel like that that's app. That's bullshit. Like the.

If our goal is fame and we are just trying to get famous, thinking that being famous is what will make us the money, I think that our efforts are just completely misplaced. And if you're faking it till you make it, that kind of goes hand in hand with that whole like, well, why? Why am I doing this? Is it for the fame and then the money or what? And I feel like if you're struggling and you're wondering if you should just post some happy, go, lucky post, or make your life look amazing, probably you should actually do the opposite of that. Not to pull on people's heartstrings, but to be like, today, like, make a post today. I am struggling with.

The fact that I have a big pimple. And I don't think that I should be on, you know, social media with this pimple on my face and I don't know how to cover it up and I look terrible and I feel terrible. Really. Like, what you're gonna get is people being like, it's okay, you're fine. And by the way, this is what I do for pimples. Like, you're just going to get that normal conversation that you're gonna have with your friends. You know, like when you're hanging out, you're like, this is what's going through my mind right now. And it seems really shallow, but it's not because it's something that we all go through. Or at least people who are going to relate to you are going through that too.

But I think.

Go for it.

Sorry, you weren't. Sounded like you were in front. Done yet?

I don't know. No.

So.

One thing that came to my mind when you said fake it till you make it. I think there is a difference between trying to embody the life or the feeling of how you want to live your life and what you want to be in the future while you're still not there or, you know, because in the end, it's already inside of you. Right. If you desire something like a life to be a certain way, I mean, you kind of have that potential already in you anyways. But I think there's a distinction to be made to fake. I mean, the word even says that, right? Fake it. Because if you're embodying a future version of yourself, you're not really faking it, because that's already part of you. Right. But I think that's a distinction I would like to make there.

Yeah.

Because some people might see that as fake it as well.

Yeah, no, that's. That's a great point. I want to. I want to bring this up because this is. This is worth touching on. So people pulling on people's heartstrings, then thinking I was looking for sympathy or something is why I've held back on telling my story and lash back from abusers. So I would say to this, Aaron, like, the difference in you sharing this story. And I can't. I can't in good conscience speak to what you're.

What you must be feeling, because I don't know. Right. Like, I can't just say and assume that I know what you're feeling and that this is the right thing. Right. So I just want to offer this from a completely, like, neutral place, just hopefully out of love and respect for your circumstance, and say that.

You sharing your story in a way that is intended to help somebody is very, very different than you sharing your story with intention of just serving yourself. Now, this is where business comes into play, right? Because some people are going to say, well, you know, this is why a lot of artists won't necessarily sell their stuff or, like, make an offer for something because they're like, well, I don't want to gain from this thing that I've gone through in some way and, you know, make a profit off of it kind of deal. Right. But here's the truth. I see business and money as a tool that we all have available to us. When the plumber comes over, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go all. All the directions here. When the plumber comes over and he fixes my sink or she fixes my sink, I am grateful. I pay them the money. I say thank you. Sometimes I tip them, right? When the person mows my lawn every other Tuesday, I'm so grateful, I'm outside talking to them. We're giving them Mushrooms, we're grateful, we give them the money, we're good. Now, those are very logical values. On the flip side of that, when my coach, who is, there's no, like, I can't grab the thing that she's giving me. But when my coach shows up and I paid her $18,000 for a year to like, be with her every week, I gladly gave over that money because that was something that helped me through my own situation. You could say she profited off my situation. But I also gained drastically.

When my wife meets with a therapist, you give them money, right? Because that's what needs to be done. And so we have to see that the things that we offer other people.

Are of value. And for us to first say like, that they're not is actually doing a disservice to the thing you make as well as the person who might buy it. This is what I believe is that if you're stopping and saying, this isn't giving enough value, I shouldn't offer it, then we're not making a distinction that it is of service to them. And that's like.

To me, that's just a shame. Like, it's tragic, right? And why wouldn't we pay for somebody who's like, gone? I would rather pay somebody who's gone through a similar experience to me because I know that they, I can, I feel like I can trust them more because I know that they're where I've been, that they have something to offer that they understand me, right? So that's really, really incredibly valuable. And you know, if it's that, like, one of the things for me is always like, I don't want people to feel like I'm taking advantage of them. So I give them opportunity. So everything we offer, 30 day money back guarantee, right? That's. This sets boundaries for both of us. You get a whole month, check it out. If you don't like it, no problem, I'll give you all your money back. I don't care, like, because I want to serve you that well. And after that, if you didn't go and do the work, now it's no longer on me. We gave you a month, right? Like, these are fair boundaries. So these are the things that I think about for all of us, right? So it's not just about Aaron. Like, so many of us have things that stop us from trying to sell the thing that we offer because we're so afraid of what somebody's going to think. And that's keeping you from serving someone well, from making enough Money that would allow you to serve people better. Right. And from seeing money as, like a tool, as something that like, benefits and it's a token of appreciation. It's something I learned from my last boss, Tim Schmoyer. It's like money's just a token of appreciation. And the other part is that the truth is that people don't value a lot of things unless they put some money on the line. So I can preach for a second here and say when somebody pays $1,500 for design your creative career, they're way more likely to show up than if they pay $19 to be in the community.

And they're way more likely to do the work. I still have a $19 community because I want people to try it and I want people to trust me, and that's an opportunity for me to build that trust. But, you know, because I don't want anybody to just expect, like, I'm the God of all things. That's not true at all. I suck at many things. Right. So this is what I mean. It's just like, I hope that you guys gain some confidence in yourself and what you have to offer and that there are always ways when your intent is right and your heart is in the right place to sell from a place of authenticity and service and to set boundaries that serve you both as the consumer and the seller. Really, really well.

Soapbox down any. Any follow ups to that, y'.

All.

I do, I do like.

When you say money as a token of appreciation. I do like that as well, because it. I think it. For artists specifically, it helps.

Because money is not always a token of appreciation, depending on the industry. Right. But I think for the relationship of an artist or a therapist or whoever with a client or a customer, I think that's an important way to look at it, especially for the artist pricing their work and feeling good about the price.

Yeah. I mean, there are parts of finance that like. Well, I don't. I'm not giving taxes because I feel like I appreciate, you know, we don't want. We don't need to go down that road, but, you know, when it's an expensive value between two people. Right. Which is the. What, the version that I'm talking about here, you know?

Right.

Yeah.

Cool. So let's. Let's do this to kind of wrap this up. First of all, if you haven't checked out our community, we love to have you check it out. You can go. I'll put the link in the chat. But the main thing I want to have everybody sort of, like, chime off on this. Susan, Maria and Hannah and Nemo. For those people that are in this place of, like, all right, I just feel. It just feels inauthentic trying to be authentic, which is such a real thing. Right. What would be a next step, do you think, for them that would be beneficial?

One of the things that helped me.

Because, yeah, I'm in front of the camera, and I'm like, okay, be authentic.

Now.

That doesn't work.

One thing, there's, like, little things you can do to help yourself, like put a picture of a friend, a close friend.

In front of you so, like, you feel like you're talking to them, for example.

That helps.

Yeah. One thing that I actually just kind of touched on on our social media yesterday. So as you could probably tell, I'm the one who talks. I'm really gotten. I've gotten very comfortable in front of the camera. Nemo's not so much, but he's coming around and coming around a lot.

Jamie and I were talking about that today. Like, Nemo, I love it.

He's getting. He's getting better. And I shared this in the stories. We had an outtake from yesterday's video where Nemo said, I think the problem is, is that you're looking at me because I was on the other side of the camera going, let's do it. You know, I can say the words. And so I realized in that moment that when I make videos, I ask him to leave the room a lot of the time, because I can't think when I have this feeling of standing there looking at me. So I left the room. Enemo did better than ever when I left the room. And it's like. It's not like we are pressuring each other into doing good on video. It just has to do with, like, grounding yourself and being in the moment so that you can feel your most natural. Instead of, like, predicting an outcome or thinking about a bad video you made in the past. No, it's just in the moment. Here I am. Nobody's around to distract me, and I'm gonna start talking.

I'm just reading Jamie's comment.

I think, for me, what happened was that it. You, like, you. You gotta pick an aspect of what you do that you. That you really enjoy in order to talk about it. Like, for me, I really love the graphics on the aluminum cans. So I'm able to tell you the beer, what it tasted like, where I got it from, who gave me the can, what trash can. I pulled it out of. So that's a really big part of the art for me, so that I can talk about that stuff.

Yes.

And where I'm kind of dominating, talking about my girl problems and politics and, you know, and I know these things are going to get engagement, but we are a unit. We're a pair. We're a team, so.

And we also operate on different timelines, and I think that that's something we notice about, like, everyone in this group is that just because Hannah was able to get to the point where she can talk to the camera within three or four months doesn't mean that Maria can do it exactly like that, you know, or Maria is really good at showing the detail of her art, where Hannah skips over that stuff and doesn't think about the detail at all. So, you know, it's. Everybody's going to be different. There's nothing wrong with that.

That's right. Yeah. I love. I love. I really love the. The idea that with Nemo leaning into the thing that gets you the most excited to talk about. That's such a good one, too. That's like. And for both of you, that, like, you know, Hannah, you're. You're like. I'm totally cool with talking about the heartfelt things and the, you know, the stuff that, like, gets me revved up. Like. That's amazing. It's okay. Birdie, welcome. So glad you're here. All right, Susan, what about you?

Well, I think Maria's tip, you know, is right on, of course, to have somebody in mind, and I have a couple people. If I'm going to be talking about internal growth, I have one gal in mind that has supported me through everything, and I just totally picture, like, I'm talking with her. Even though I've never met her in person, just online, she. I don't know. It makes it easier for me to be grounded. If I'm thinking about art, I have another person that I'm thinking about with that. And yeah, if my husband was holding the camera, I'm always like, when I ask, I hand him the camera and ask him to take pictures of me. You know, stills of me. They never work. I do much better with my remote control doing that. But Jamie had said something in the chat about wearing a mask when she was teaching, and I think that's it is we need to find a way for a lot of us to drop the mask. Because I know when I was teaching the prisons, it was, you know, I went in thinking I had to be a certain type of teacher, and I Had to be a certain type of presenter and I had to be able to do certain things to connect with these inmates. And every time I tried to do that, it was absolute failures. Just they did not work. And it's the same thing online.

Learning to drop the mask. And what I finally figured out is it's so exhausting. It's so hard to hold this mask up all the time, to pretend to be something else. When you let it go, it really is easy. I mean, I, you know, if my husband runs down to get coffee in the morning and I have a thought, then I have no problem picking up my phone and just doing a really quick video, because it's easy. I'm just thinking about something, I'm going to talk about it. And it just comes from continuing to do it and being willing, like I said earlier, to leave in the mistakes. You know, we all live imperfect lives. We are all imperfect people. And you are going to come across so much more real if you leave those in and it's easier. You don't have to edit. You don't have to use fat fingers on the telephone screen to figure out, how do I get that out of there? Just leave it. The hardest thing is just keeping. Keeping it to the time limit of whatever platform you're trying to post on.

That's right. That's right.

Yeah. That is. That is the hardest.

Yeah. And sometimes I'll just say screw it, you know, and I'll just be like, well, this will only go one place. And that's fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is. It's not easy to drop the mask. And it takes a long time to get comfortable with it. Some people it's easier. Some people it's not.

And I want to. This is something I've done for a long time. And Lennon, you just mentioned it recently in someplace, but build your body of evidence, you know, grab your phone and if somebody leaves you a comment telling you that what you said related to them, just snap a picture of it and have a folder where you're saving all those things. You know, I did that for years with writing. I didn't do it the first couple years that I was working with art and sharing my stuff. And I'm sorry that I didn't, because I got a lot of great feedback. And now I'm actually paging back through old YouTube comments, looking for things that I know had an impact on me because I need that evidence. And that is going to empower you to drop the mask. 60 seconds, 30 seconds, a 30 second reel on Instagram is going to get you more attention maybe than 90 seconds. So you can drop the mask for 30 seconds and then throw it right back on again when you're off camera. You know, it's just you. You build the muscles by doing the work.

Yes, that's exactly it. That's exactly it. You build the muscles by doing the work. We can't start with confidence. We have to start with action. Action gives us clarity. Clarity creates confidence. And we've, we've been doing that recently too, where when we get emails or comments somewhere or when you guys post in the community, you know, a nice thing, like we screenshot them and we drop them in Slack so that we can share them as our little team and just celebrate that.

People are having little moments, you know, and that's what we're here to do. And so, you know, at the surface level, like, we want to help people grow businesses being creatives, but underneath that, we want to help people change the way they see themselves. And I think having learning to sell yourself, and I hate that term, but like learning to be confident and show how your work is of value to people, learning that skill, there's no way that it can't benefit you internally. There's no way that it can't. Like, you will become a better version of yourself doing that. Hands down, I believe it. And I'm just so grateful for all of you, all that are a part of our Creative Impact Academy. You here. So these, these people here have been with me for some of the longest time. Susan for three plus years. Hannah and Nemo for just about three years. Maria's like a year and a half. Something like that. Is that right? Yeah. So we've been, we've been hanging out a lot. We do. So once you go through design, your creative career, we have something called the alumni group. There's a few more people that are in it as well, but we just meet bi weekly. And so we started doing these lives, like, maybe we should just meet and just talk about stuff publicly. Like that might be fun and helpful. Wasn't my idea, it was somebody else's. And Susan was like, well, let's just put a date on the calendar. Come on, let's just all do it. I was like, all right, so we did it. And so Susan's responsible for this live stream. Everybody give round of applause to Susan for like putting our feet to the fire.

Thank you guys for watching. If you're watching this and you are trying to figure out how to grow your creative business from a Place of authenticity. I believe that the best way for you to create a sustainable income as an artist is by connecting people with the artist as much as the art. If you've grown to like these people anymore by hearing their stories, then that is case in point. Because what happens is when we understand somebody's story, we understand the story of the art in a different way. And so we do everything based around that model and we have an entry level program. If you're just like, hey, I don't like to show up on camera, no problem. If you're like, hey, I don't know where to start, no problem. I have no content ideas, I have no audience, I have no email. Like, no problem, right? We are in a space where it's safe to be experimental, to play, to show up when you can, to tuck away when you can't, and to just have a group of people that support each other. I've never, like, I've never seen it and I've. I've grown other communities, you know, in my other jobs and this one is the most supportive I've ever seen. I just love it so much. So you can go to the link in the chat. It's. Or just go to stop the starving artist backslash. C CIA trial. Creative Impact Academy. CIA? Yes. Like the top secret agent sort of thing. So come check it out. Come join us. You can try it for a week for a dollar if you use that link and see what you think. But we'd love to have you. Thank you, Susan, Hannah, Nemo and Maria for being here and for being just such a gift to me and your communities. Like, I really mean that somebody. I don't know when it was, but. Oh, it was about the mask thing. Like, I was, I found myself getting a little emotional. I was like, ugh, this is so it. You know, just like the hardest work we do is figuring out how to be more ourself. It just really is.

So I'm so. I'm just so glad to have you guys and get to hang out with you guys all the time. So I'll let you guys go. Yeah. Thank y'.

All.

Happy Thursday, August 10th, 1:52pm Bye.

Bye.