Working with Robert Reich, Howard Dean, Timeless Business Success with Dorie Clark

Welcome to Make More Marbles. My name is Brad Hart, and we're here to interview the game changers, the future makers, the co collaborators and creators who are here to collaborate with one another towards a better future for all of us. Enjoy the show. We've got a great guest coming up for you right now. Welcome to Make More Marbles. My name is Brad Hart, and today I have the honor to have a very lovely lady, Miss Dorie Clark, on the show today. How are you, Dorie?

I am so good, Brad. Thanks for having me.

Thank you so much for being here. And thank you for calling in from New York. My favorite place in the world is where I'm from.

Yes. Now that we've established that you don't actually live in Cardiff, Wales, because if you did, that would probably be your favorite place. But besides that, New York is pretty darn awesome.

You know, the Welsh really have it figured out, honestly. They have this beautiful little community. They're just off of the coast of, like, a mega superpower that's been around for a long time. They've managed to keep a relative amount of autonomy, so I think we learn a little bit about them.

I know. Hats off to the Welsh.

So let's just kind of start with the coordinates.

Right?

Let's kind of start with the heroine's journey, if you will. Like, what has your life been like so far that's gotten you to where you are today? What? You know, if somebody has never heard of you before, would they want to know about your successes, but also their failures, which I think is where really most people can ground. Not everybody's had a ton of success, but everybody can relate to failure. So why don't we start with that and just kind of get up to speed with everybody?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I will give you the brief hero heroine's journey for sure. In my case, I grew up in a little town in North Carolina and felt completely oppressed by being in this ridiculous small town. And so I wanted to get out. And so I actually managed to finagle my way to do that. I managed. There was this program that I entered that allowed me to enter college early. So I entered college when I was 14, and that was great because it cut out three years of high school. And so I did that, graduated, went to grad school, and my first real job that I had after grad school was as a newspaper reporter. And I would have been probably happy to be a newspaper reporter for my career for the rest of my life, but I got ignominiously laid off. Just about a year into my professional journey, it turned out they laid me off. Monday, September 10, 2001. So it was quite challenging to find a job after that. I ended up shifting over. I'd been a political reporter, so I went into politics and worked on a couple of high profile campaigns, which both lost. I then ran a nonprofit for a little while and through running the nonprofit realized that I, you know, essentially running a nonprofit is kind of the same thing as running a business. So I figured, why don't I do that? So I started my business 11 years ago. There have been many great things, many, you know, successes, but there's also been plenty of failures along the way. I had to reconceptualize my business many times, as I think a lot of people do. Starting out, I originally thought it was going to be a business doing political consulting. And when I didn't get any political clients at first, but I did get interest from, you know, some, some like nonprofits and businesses. I'm like, okay, I'll be a marketing consultant. So. So I pivoted to that. I had done a lot of PR at first as well, and I realized that I didn't really like doing that, so I pivoted to marketing strategy. So there was a lot of changes. And you know, finally, of course, I was able to write, to write a book. I've now published three books, but it was a kind of torturous journey to doing that. And I got three different proposals rejected initially before I managed to sell my first one. So there's been a lot of ups and downs, but that's kind of the brief. Pressy.

No, I love it because life is really like a book that you get to author and read at the same time. You know, it's like if you want a better outcome in the next chapter, you can literally affect that outcome, which is pretty fun. So you've obviously had your ups and downs. I want to start to pull on the threads of this sweater and start to reveal the naked truth underneath. So if you'll indulge me. So a few things you mentioned which I thought were just really fun and I didn't want to interrupt your flow, were, you know, being in a non profit is a lot like running a business, except for, you know, except that profit thing that you're all going after in business. What were some of the things that urged you in that transition from one to the other? Like did you really have a mission that was focused on, you know, contribution at all costs? Was it like, hey, you know, a Lot of people get into nonprofits for reasons or NGOs for their own reasons. They, they believe that they can do more that they than they can without the business model in place. Actually change the world. When you transitioned into business, was it more of a function of hey, I want to, I want to show people what I can do, or is it, hey, I don't have the resources to do what I actually wanted to do in the first place. I need a business model to make that happen.

You know, the most direct reason was that running the nonprofit was extremely stressful to me because it was, it was a small, very, very scrappy nonprofit. Specifically. We had an annual budget of $150,000 and we had three employees that we had to somehow support on that. And I was responsible for raising almost all of that money. We had a board, but they were not a strong fundraising board. And so the buck stopped with me as the executive director. And just the idea of figuring out how to do that was so overwhelming. I had had jobs that theoretically should have been more stressful than that, like being a spokesperson on a presidential campaign.

The political consulting thing is something really interesting too. Knocking on the doors of K Street and getting a lot of no's. I'm sure that was a stressful period of your life as well, but the politics with business and I didn't mean to interrupt again, but what I'm really focused on is understanding how leadership shows up and what are the lessons that leaders have learned. And you've written three best selling books on leadership, so you obviously have some lessons that have transcended time and space. And I'm sure you've learned from a lot of great mentors. What are some of the ones that really like digging out the gold that you've learned? If you wish everybody, if you had a microphone into everybody's ear, which would be the ones you'd want impart to.

Them just in terms of overall lessons about entrepreneurship.

Yeah, entrepreneurship. Leadership in general. You know, how to bring people forward and into a vision that's bigger than themselves. I mean, leadership certainly starts with self leadership, which you've obviously got a lot of. You got a lot of hoods about a lot of moxie to move out into the world to do the things that you want to do, but then imparting that into others. I've always said I've had a really hard time lighting fires in people. I could throw gasoline on those fires. That's what I'm really good at. But that's maybe somebody else's job. I just know what I'm good at.

Yeah, well, I think your point is a good one. And I think it's hard to light a fire in almost anybody. I mean, there has to be an initial spark. You know, it's my dad. When I was growing up, he had been an alcoholic, and so he was in AA all during my childhood. And, you know, the thing that got hammered into me from that, which I think applies to a lot of things, is, you know what, before you can do anything, they've got to want to stop drinking. And I think the same thing is true with entrepreneurship or with success or anything like that. You can't make someone want that. You can't put that in that. Even. Even if it's just like a little inchoate desire. Great. You can take that. You can. You can run with that. You can help people. But I do think that there has to be a little bit of an inherent interest or a spark or something drawing people to seek out more information about something. But in terms of lessons that I think have been most. Most critical or most useful, I mean, I think about some of the things that I've written about, for instance, in Standout, which is my book about how to become a recognized expert in your field, for that, you know, this. This is a topic that. That you hear about a lot. That. That is important, right? I mean, just about every business owner, every entrepreneur says, how do I distinguish myself from the competition? How do I set myself apart so that people will want to seek me out and be willing to ideally, you know, pay what I'm worth? And in order to do that, what I. What I've come to realize, there are some really basic things that we need to do, and yet a lot of people don't do them. Notably, like, when you say it, it's very obvious. And yet people. People, you know, sometimes have. Have to have it laid out, which, you know, one of my goals of standout is to help with that. But if you want to be recognized for your ideas, if you want to be a thought leader in your field, you have to share your ideas, otherwise no one will know what they are. I mean, so. So basic, but that is why I'm such an evangelist for content creation. And in fact, I developed a methodology around becoming a recognized expert, where I have spent countless hours analyzing what it really takes and working backwards. There are three elements that you have to have. One is content creation so that people will know what your ideas actually are. Number two is social proof, meaning your credibility, so that people will actually Be willing to listen and take you seriously. And number three is your network because you need A, help honing your ideas and making sure they're good, and B, you need help evangelizing on behalf of your ideas because they can't spread if you are the only person that is talking about them. Those are the three ingredients you really need.

That's huge. And I really love what you said about being an evangelist of content creation because even now in this incredibly diverse and just overwhelmingly noisy world, you can still stand out with great content. And that's the best part, is that the people who find your content and really gain value from it not only want to share it, but they also want to evangelize it for you. Can we dig into that a little bit more? We talked about the content creation social proof. Obviously that makes a lot of sense, right? People who are smart and influencers themselves. Talking about what a smart influence you are, that really helps out a lot. And you got the content to back it up. Now the networking part, how do you really incentivize people and create an environment where they want to share what you have?

Yeah, well, I think the starting place, right, is friendship. And what I mean by that is that sometimes I think the discussion about networking kind of over complicates things. And part of the reason that people feel bad about it sometimes, part of the reason that even the word networking is so distasteful to so many people is that they assume that it has this really transactional orientation. But at its core, I mean, what I'm talking about when I use that phrase, it's about making friends. It's about surrounding yourself with other like minded people who are, who are in your orbit and who think what you're doing is great. And you think what, what they're doing is great. I mean, for me, I moved to New York about three and a half years ago now and I really had to construct a social network from scratch. It was, it was kind of a, kind of a big thing because I had been living in Boston for 17 years before I came to New York. And so starting over, really, I mean, of course I knew a few people, but I didn't really, I didn't know a ton of people, I didn't have a lot of close friends. I really had to be thoughtful and deliberate about building this social network. And what I came to realize is just there's such joy in surrounding yourself with people you really like. And it's fun to talk about the things that you like with them. That's What I wish for all people. And when people think, oh, networking, it sounds so terrible. It sounds so horrible. How is it horrible hanging out with your friends? That's literally it. When you have a relationship with your friends, it's easy to have it be generous. It's easy for you to want to do things for them and for them to want to do things for you because you actually legitimately enjoy each other. And so of course they're going to want to help support you.

I love that. And that's such a great distinction because everybody looks at networking as a have to do. I look at it as a get to do. Like I get to spend time with the coolest people I've ever met, you know, and I get to bounce ideas off these people, I get to co create with them. It's a beautiful thing. We're all about collaboration here. So I totally agree with that. And I just want to point out one more thing is that you come from the political arena. You've worked on presidential campaigns, you've done the lobbying, you've done these pieces. And what I think is really interesting is that, you know, society, Netflix, you watch House of Cards and they'll portray it as this Machiavellian grab and go game. And some of politics is certainly like that. You know, some of it's very cutthroat.

But I think I did not personally kill anyone.

Right, exactly. You didn't push anybody onto the train tracks. Oops, sorry, spoiler alert. But you know, if you look at the world through that lens, you think it was, you know, horrible and that you have to be this power hungry monster in order to succeed. But I truly have this idea that the winners are really people. Maybe not at first, but over time consistently just add value to the most people and form the most relationships that by and large, like I call it marble makers versus marble takers. Are you a hungry hungry hippo trying to grab for all the marbles for yourself? Are you trying to make more for everybody? Right. That's really my only criteria is who are these people in the world being. And it makes it really simple and clear for everybody who connects with me that, you know, that's what I'm about. And I would just like to free to unpack that a little bit more. Like what is it being in the political arena? What is it really like? Because I know it's like in the financial arena, I can't speak to the political arena. I've lived in Los Angeles and Silicon Valley. I know kind of the tech and entertainment Arenas. But is politics zero sum game or is it really the winners, you know, the people that go the farthest are the most collaborative?

Well, I think that like a lot of realms, Brad, in the short term, I think it is true that some of the takers, so to speak, can win because they're, you know, they're often charming and they're just, they're optimizing for the quick gain. But over time, if you burn people, obviously they're going to remember that, and obviously they're going to talk to other people. And so if you want to have a long career in politics, if you want to make it your thing, then it's very disadvantageous to develop a reputation as someone who does not pay back favors or as someone who is out to always maximize their gain. And other people feel like they kind of need to watch their back around you. So, yeah, I think, you know, the people who are revered, the people who really have had, you know, had a lot of loyalty around them are the people who, you know, they treat their staff well, they're generous to the people around them. I mean, you think about someone like Ted Kennedy who, you know, there's certainly people who didn't necessarily agree with, with his politics, but he was beloved. And part of the reason he was beloved in Massachusetts was that he was a very good senator in the sense of the things that a senator should do. His staff would stay with him for decades because he was so good to work for. His office was. And the leader sets the tenor. Of course, his office was always the one that people called for help with almost anything because they were so responsive and they were so on top of it. And he really cultivated the environment of service in that way. You know, especially compared to other Senate offices where, you know, sometimes they're a little too good for the constituent services. You know, they kind of maybe blow people off because they're. They're too busy worrying about, you know, blah, blah, blah, fancy international relations thing. Ted Kennedy's office was. Was always incredibly hands on. And the tenor was set that if a constituent needed something, that is your job, that is what you do. And as a result, there was just. There's just a huge amount of goodwill built up around that.

I think that's really beautiful, Dori. And if somebody wanted to dig into the mechanics of that particular office or that tenor, is there a great book that you recommend as well? Because I think I personally want to dig into that more. So creating that culture that can last and be responsive and even in the modern world can still be very accessible, even when, like you said, there's just so much going on and it's just, you know, opportunities, deals and fits and farts in the wind all the time and who knows, Right. But I think if you just make it a priority to take care of people no matter where they're at, that, that goes a long way. That's what we try to do.

Absolutely. I don't have a specific book to recommend because my knowledge of Ted Kennedy's, you know, and his and all of that really comes from. I was very actively involved in Massachusetts politics for about a decade, so I just knew a lot of people in that world. But there have been, I know, some very good and comprehensive Ted Kennedy bios, so certainly something worth checking out.

Absolutely. And I'm always a geek about leadership. I'm always a geek about values. I'm always a geek about better systems that serve more people. So I just love doing that. And just seeing some of the places you've been and some of the things you've done, it's very inspiring to see somebody with their head screwed on straight really win in that arena and do well in that arena. But now you're in the marketing arena, which certainly is a little bit different than the political arena. Although some things are still the same.

Right.

Humans are humans wherever you go. What are some of the things that translate and don't translate from the world to world?

Yeah, you know, I think there really, there really is a lot of overlap fundamentally. I did communications in politics and so the mandate that I had at the time, you know, for the candidates that I worked with, I was working for Robert Reich, the former labor secretary, when he ran for Massachusetts governor. And I was the New Hampshire communications director for Howard Dean when he ran for president in the 2004 cycle. So, you know, pretty, pretty good, interesting, high profile races. But, you know, and I also consulted on many, many races after that, but those were the two where I was a full time staffer. But, you know, the mandate there is, you have to, you have to help set the overall arc, the narrative arc of the message. You want, you want to know. There's so many candidates. If, you know, if you don't plan it out right, you just get buffeted by the winds of what is in the news that day. And of course that's gonna happen, but you need to set your own agenda. You need to figure out in advance where you want to take the message so that you can try to control the discourse as best you can. You know, if you want the race to be about education. You've got to make the race about education. And so you figure out how you can lay out the chess pieces to make that happen. So that's one another is then working backwards and developing your tactical plan around that. What are the locations? What are the venues? What are the timings of the rollouts? Who do you need as endorsers and supporters? What will help you make that case and put it forward? How do you ideally make sure that you are the person driving the conversation rather than just kind of being, you know, being a punching bag and having to respond to what everybody else is doing? And I think in a lot of ways that's really good training for the marketing world in general because, you know, we, we are all now in everyday and noisier and more crowded environment. And so it really does become critical. How do you set the discourse? How do you make enough of a mark that you are not just being heard, but that you are being turned to as someone that is influential or that has something to say? And that's a question that now that not just politicians need to answer, but that all of us need to answer if we're entrepreneurs or trying to build a brand and do something in the world.

Yeah, I love that. And then you kind of hit on my next question, which is perfect. And I want to kind of just transition here. Working with Robert Reich, I know he's trying to create better systems to serve more people.

Right.

I know that's been his life work for the last however many two decades now, since he was not the Secretary of Labor anymore in the Clinton administration.

Yeah, yeah.

And he's been very effective in creating some of the best content, as you would say, you know, to drive that message forward. And getting that social proof is obviously a no brainer, having worked for a big administration. But I guess I want to dig into some of the things that he's done recently that I've seen and gotten a lot of value out of, like saving capitalism. That documentary on Netflix, for example. Working with him, how is that structured or kind of shaped your thinking about how to do that? What do you think that more of us can do if we have a message or a better idea to begin that collaborative process? Certainly no one person has all the answers, but beginning that collaborative process towards creating those better systems.

Yeah, I'll say that. Working, working for both Robert Reich and Howard Dean, what I took from that, I mean, you know, there's, there's many things, of course, but in terms of how to affect change, specifically What I took from those relationships and watching them was actually even more about how they pursued their goals even when Plan A failed for them. Because obviously, you know, for both of them, their move, their initial gambit was, hey, I'm going to run for office. You know, I'm going to be governor or I'm going to be president, and that's how I'm going to affect change. And that would have been a great way for them to do that. But unfortunately, the voters did not agree, and they got turned back. And, you know, you see so many people who. They get defeated and they go and sulk or they just go off and they're like, all right, I'm just gonna go lobby for cigarettes or something like that and make a lot of money.

Sounds like a personal story that you might have a little more color on.

None of my former candidates that I know of have become a cigarette lobbyist. But nonetheless, nonetheless. But, you know, that's kind of a common reaction, right? Like, oh, okay, voters, you don't want me, Fine. But what I really admire about both what Reich did and what Howard Dean did is that they, you know, of course, everybody needs to take a little time after they lose to kind of get adjusted. But once they did, they kept to their goal. They just said, you know what? I'm gonna reach it a different way. And in the case of Howard Dean, he ran, you know, his next move, his immediate next move was that he ran for the chair of the dnc, the Democratic National Committee. Now, that's a good job. That's a prestigious job to have, but it is nowhere near as prestigious as being President of the United States. That's like a world of difference. I mean, you talk about a kind of a comedown, honestly, but he was willing to do it because he basically just took in the information. He's like, okay, if I can't be president, I want to affect the Democratic Party. I want to affect the country in the electoral process. This is the best way I know how. And he was willing to do that. And he put in four years of yeoman's work just getting the ground ready so that Obama could win. I mean, that is exactly what he did. He put the infrastructure in place that allowed Obama to win states that would not have been winnable otherwise. And so I feel like he deserves a huge amount of credit for doing that. And in the case of Robert Reich, he did not run for office again, but he used the public position that he had. He used his notoriety for good in terms of continuing to campaign. Around the issues that he cared about, like income inequality and just sort of raising the level of what government can provide to the American people.

I love that. And it kind of just harkens back to that idea of you can add so much value by paving the way for others who share your values and may have more of a. Like you said, that initial gambit didn't work out, but I. This, this person is really has momentum and nobody's perfect. Certainly we're not painting any of these people as perfect and 100% right all the time. But in checking your ego and being able to come back and say, okay, I didn't. I didn't quite make it right. They got me with the hype cycle, the hooah, whatever it was, that it kind of took his campaign apart. You know, coming back from that and saying, okay, that didn't quite work out. I'm still a smart man. I'm still a doctor, I'm still an entrepreneur. I still have all these wonderful things I could use to leverage towards a better and higher good. I'm going to select another horse and just get all behind that person and pave the way for them. That just requires so much selflessness and so much resolve and so much just understanding of how can you be in best in high service even when you don't get the glory. Or maybe nobody besides a few that know like yourself will ever sing my praises for like, that's just another level of. I don't want to say martyrdom, that's not the right word, but it's definitely operating as if the mission is more important. And I think America needs more heroes like that. They need more unsung heroes like Howard Dean that, you know, he didn't quite get the prize. Fine. Not a lot of people are going to be the president United States. It's. It's way unlikely, right? But he still was able to affect change at a huge level. And I remember I was living in Harlem at the time when Obama won and it was.

It freaked out.

Like everybody in the world freaked out that night. It was incredible. And it was, it was definitely a step in the right direction towards equality for a lot of reasons. You know, it was a step in the right direction towards a world where hope could win.

Absolutely.

So, you know, he had a hand in helping create that. So I think we need to give Howard Dean a tip of the cap for that and appreciate it. I'm grateful to know that story because I didn't know that. So thank you so dory in that way. What are some of the things that you are creating in the world that maybe we can help you to move forward faster with? And I'd like to frame this question by saying, this is the make more marvelous community. We're all about collaborating towards a better and brighter future and better systems to serve more people. We do that in a lot of ways. We talk about blockchain all the time as, for example, a way we might be able to disrupt the current financial system that serves a few very well and not so much some others. There's a great Winston Churchill saying that democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. I'm sure you'll appreciate that I feel the same about capitalism and every other system that's ever been devised. And it was the best we had at the time. And then maybe there's something better coming on down the road, just like we don't use feudalism anymore. What are some of the things that you're creating in the world that we can help you move forward faster? Whether it be a connection, a resource, an opportunity, a person, a system crops, as we like to say. How can we do that for you?

Yeah. Thank you so much, Brad. Well, you know, I'll answer the question on two fronts about things that I'm. Things that I'm doing. One, the thing that I'm excited about from a professional standpoint is part of what animates the work that I do. And, you know, for all of my books, the kind of substratum of them is helping people try to figure out the unwritten codes that are actually governing business success so that hopefully more people can have access to it, because, you know, you have so many people who want to differentiate themselves in the marketplace, who want to become thought leaders, who want to, you know, build a financially successful business. And yet a lot of stuff doesn't get said. It doesn't get talked about. You know, when we talk about, like, you know, making money, right, it's such a loaded thing. Like, people get really twitchy about, like, well, you know, how much do people get paid for something? You know, like, nobody wants to ever say. And so there's like an information vacuum. And when there is an information vacuum, it means that a small inner circle who happens to have access to that information is doing great. Everyone else is just guessing in the dark, and it usually operates against their interests. So I wanted to try to make things as transparent as possible and really create a playbook. So what I'm excited about is just finding ways to create more opportunities to Level the playing field so that talented people can really be heard, so that they know what the deal is and they have the ability to do what's necessary to be successful rather than just hoping or guessing. So that's something that I really care about. And whether it's through the books or through my recognized expert course and community, et cetera, that fires me up. And then the second thing, on a personal level, what I'm creating, I am a big believer in, I guess, using your free time strategically as sort of, you know, developing new hobbies, new activities, free time.

This is a new concept. I've never heard of this. Go on, tell me more.

That's right. That's right. So last year, for instance, in 2016, my big personal growth campaign was taking comedy classes. I did, I did a couple of, you know, six week courses on stand up comedy. I did a ton of performances all around New York. So that's been really fun and something I continue to do. And next year, 2018, I. What I am going to do. I have been accepted into a program actually for this year, but I deferred it because I was launching entrepreneurial you. And I just knew I wouldn't have the bandwidth to do it. But I've been accepted into a program run by bmi, the musical theater publishing company that they run, which trains in, you know, in their, in their parlance, the next generation of musical theater talent. And so I am in this program. It's going to be a two year fellowship program that I'm doing to learn to write musical theater, to be a lyricist for it. So I'm really excited about that. It's something that I have, I have been never done. I mean, I've done it a little bit enough, enough to, to get accepted to the program, but not in any sort of substantial or sustained way. So this, this is really a new area that I am committing myself to learn about and gain expertise in.

That's beautiful, Dory. And would you mind sharing a joke with us because you've been studying comedy. I did improv for a couple years out in la and I always get a kick out of like people setups and stories. And if you want to share one, I, I think it'd be really fun to just kind of work through that too.

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So I have a business joke, so it goes something like this. Okay. Note audience. It's always a lot funnier when there's like a hundred drunk people in the audience laughing with you, so nobody's gonna.

Throw a beer bottle at you. On the podcast. Don't worry.

Yes. So, you know, I'm single right now. It's really hard to have a girlfriend because I'm a business author. I spend all my time working. I'm reading business books. I'm reading self improvement books. I'm reading Tony Robbins. And I did actually have a girlfriend a while back, but it didn't work out because she kept inviting people over to the house for barbecues and I kept making them walk on the hot coals. I love it.

I've walked on fire four times, so I especially appreciate that.

Boom. Yes.

Are you a big Tony Robbins fan?

I. I do like Tony Robbins. I have actually never walked on the hot coals. That, that actually scares the shit out of me.

But we got to get you out one time. We're doing the next one, San Jose. We've got 47 people. The last one.

Oh, my God.

We bring a lot of people at Tony Robbins. We get the best rates on tickets. We, we don't make a profit on it. We just love for people to see Tony and experience this man because he's a force of nature.

Oh, he is. He is.

So, yeah, if you, if you have that time, I would love for you to come out and join us at the, at the group. And that goes for anybody listening. Honestly, like, we just want to bring more people and show them the work. And we get VIP tickets and we go and we sit down, just catty corner the stage like last time, and Tony walks right up to you. It's super fun. So, yeah, it's. It's experience for sure. And thank you for sharing that great joke. So I appreciate the setup. Okay, cool. So if people want to get in touch with you, if they have a way to promote your work, if they want to connect you with somebody who they think could help you move your mission forward faster, what's the best way to do that, Dori?

Yeah. Thank you, Brad. So I would send them to my website. It's doriclark.com perhaps not surprisingly. D O R I E C L A R K. That is where. Where they can get more than 500 FREE articles that I've written. You know, places like Forbes, Harvard Business Review, et cetera. So they can go on a dory binge if they want. And especially if they're interested in the entrepreneurial you material and developing new income streams. I have a free resource they can download, which is the 88 question entrepreneurial you self assessment that actually walks you through how to develop new income streams in your business. And that's@doryclark.com entrepreneur.

I love it. And thank you so much, Dory, for being on the show. And I'm just, I'm so grateful for having you here because more and more as I do this, I start to realize that I think everybody in life, especially successful people, they have their kind of their mission and they don't really vary as much as you think. You know, they. They really do want to serve and they do want to help and they want to reach more people. And I think podcasting is a great.

Way to do that.

So I just want to say thank you again for being here and for everybody listening at home. Go check out those resources. That's Dori Clark. D O R-I E C L-A-R-K.com and then entrepreneur, if you want that free resource. And thank you so much for being here, Dorie. And I just appreciate you and I'm grateful for you.

I'm so glad to talk with you. Thanks, Brad.

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