Ep 1: Nothing replaces time in this sport

From performanceriders.com this is the Pabri Podcast. I'm Nat Foxen and each week I'll be here with Brett Parberry, multiple national championship winner and dressage and World Games Top 10 Rider. We will be dissecting ideas Brett's come up with over the years that I call Pabrisms. You can find out more about working with us@performanceriders.com but for now, let's get into the episode. Brett, we are kicking off the new year with something that's been on our want to ages, actually. And this is the podcast. We're here, Brett.

I know. How exciting.

So the situation, Brett, is that for about four years or so we've been running coaching and mentoring sessions in our goal performance program. And over that time, you may have noticed me scribbling away notes furiously during these sessions. As a result, I filled many notebooks with that wisdom that you've shared with us over that time. And what happens is every couple of pages I scribble something down and I draw a big circle around it. And that's a reminder to myself to revisit that concept with you at a later date. Now, these ideas that I draw a big circle around, I call these pareisms. So in this podcast season, I'm going to be mirroring back to you a pare ism that you've shared over the past few years. Now, you don't know what I'm going to come up with. And we'll use that pabrism to break down the idea further and as a tool to sort of delve further into your philosophy of riding training and competing in dressage. Are you nervous, Brett?

I am, I am. I'm just wondering what isms have I come up with that? These things just roll off the tongue sometimes, Nat. So I'm just wondering. I hope I can justify it.

Okay, so the first papyism I'm going to talk about today is nothing replaces time in this sport. Okay. Nothing replaces time in this sport. I actually remember when you said this. It was quite a while ago now, and I think the context at the time was that you were talking about the big picture in terms of training a horse. And we can take this idea wherever we want to go in this discussion, but at the time, the context was, this is a long game we're playing. There is no magic bullet. It's about consistency over time. Brett, what's the first thing that comes into your head when I mention this particular Pabri ism to you? That nothing replaces time in this sport?

Yeah, I Mean, I guess what comes into my head is the amount of, well, firstly the rider. The amount of knowledge and, and muscle memory and ways in which to solve problems that you build up over time through being in situations where you make an incredible amount of mistakes. And if you're, if you have a bit of a self awareness and a self reflective personality, you can look at those mistakes, admit them. I mean, part of you making mistakes and growing from them is being able to admit them first and then admit them and then also have the intelligence to try and search for better ways. So. And that can only happen over time. I mean this sport's one of those things where they're just an, an awful amount of, enormous amount of mistakes to make and you can't make them all at once. You know, they will happen over, over time and then the solutions aren't that obvious either. So. And then the development of the horse, it's also a long, slow burning process. So I think I do now remember saying that and I do really agree with it. Of course there's exceptions to the rule, but yeah, time in the sport I think will not only develop the horse to be more sustainably confident and, and have better foundations, but it will provide enough experiences to a rider to become more all round in the way they train and the way they can handle different types of horses in different situations.

Yeah. And do you feel this is a situation in which, you know, just general life experience over the years helps you, you with your writing?

Oh, definitely. You know, it's. When I was younger I was, I was as bad as anybody that's young. You know, the older people, more wise would give me advice and you'd be like, oh yeah, maybe that happened back when they were young, but it's not going to happen to me. And, and now here I am in the same position trying to offer this wise old man's advice to people. And it's a young folk and can see the same look in their eyes what I had. And I'm like, oh gee, was I really like that? Why didn't I listen? Gee, I wished I listened. And but in saying that the mistake making process is important, it's unfortunate that, you know, some poor horses have to put up with us during that period. But if, if I can just help one young person, or not even young, like one person not make the same mistakes I've made. I feel like, you know, I'm doing my job. So. But definitely this only comes with time, time and wisdom and, and spending a lot of time thinking about it. And, and rehashing things and thinking of better ways and understanding the mechanics behind the problem. And, you know, all of those things, it's, it's, it's enormous. It's enormous.

And that's interesting there to think about the distinction of the time investment in terms of things thinking about what you're doing, because you've, you've made that distinction, Brett. Thinking. You didn't say time in the saddle on that. On a particular horse trying to thrash it out. You said time thinking about what you're doing.

Yeah, well, you're right there. Because there's only so much you can do from the saddle. Of course, all of your experience comes from there, and all of your mistakes come from there. But the actual processing of the problem and the solution or the possible solutions, I believe are. Are all done off the horse. And then the idea is to then hop back on the horse and, and try some of these things and give it enough time to work. When we are younger or, or let's say earlier in the sport, we might not. We might not understand the importance of time or the importance of mistakes, but as you do get older, the more you. You tend not to stress about mistakes and stress about time frames because you know that if you take longer on something now, it will happen quicker later.

Yeah, that's interesting. I feel like I need to pause you there and go revisit that concept. So the longer you take on something now can mean it's a speedier process later on, Is that what you said?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's the old foundation thing. The more, the, the more solid the horse understands the foundations of the sport, the. The quicker things will happen later. And I guess I have this theory that, you know, for everything in dressage, from preliminary to elementary, is laying the foundations for dressage, and that's. That can be said for every sport. I think every sport in horses has some level of foundation. And in, in, in, in dressage, it's the levels from prelim to elementary. And then once the horse has sort of almost completed its elementary education, it's only versions of the same information that form half passes and flying changes and pirouettes and all of the fancy stuff PR from passage. Even though the horse still has to learn that the concept of a walk, truck, transition, you know, a walk pirouette, a traver down the long side, these are the fundamental aids that then become passage and half passes and canter pirouettes and. And those things. So the fundamental aids all get taught to the horse from prelim through to elementary and then from medium, this is Australian levels. From medium onwards is then okay, now we refine it and we layer them differently. We layer these aids differently to form these more high level high school dressage movements. So in that discussion, you know full well that if a horse is not getting something in elementary, that's one of the foundation aids responses, then there's no way, no matter how quickly I want to go to the next level, that horse will struggle at some point later because I haven't taken the time here at the low, at this foundation stage to, to really get this in. And then it's understanding, is it a, is it a movement or, or a response or a body position that my horse actually struggles with mechanically or are they not wanting to do it because it's just awkward and they don't really want to try for me and I have to spend more time or be a little bit, you know, a little bit firmer to say, hey, come on, I need you to do it and then be nicer to them again. And. Or is it, you know, something that just, just mechanically they find super, super hard. And I have to take time to develop this like any athlete would, to develop the body, their body to do the, to do this exercise properly. And once I think a rider understands how the foundations then transfer into the movements, they then realize, oh, okay, well I need to go, I need to take more time here because once I can get this in later, it will be a lot easier. And, and that's where, you know, there's a lot of concepts that you'll hear me go on about actually spawn from that idea. So the concept of, you know, only compete when you're ready, like when you feel like you're ready to compete, not because the show's on. That's one of those things where you say, well, look, I'm not going to compete at the moment because I'm. My horse is not really showing me at home that they understand this concept. So there's that and there's also then, you know, not necessarily waiting around till you're getting 70% in a level to go to the next level, but show that you are competent at that level before you go to the next level. So show that you're competent, you can do all of the elements of that level before you go to the next one. And that, that's showing that you have all the foundations in place before you go to the next level. So those, you know, like I said, don't have to be getting the massive scores. You just need to be showing comp, like that you are comp. You can competently perform. Yeah.

You don't need to be winning. Like, you don't need to wait there until you're winning some championship.

Because sometimes, you know, the pressure that's involved in putting, like getting a horse to move at a level where they get a really high score might be compromising some of the, the, some of the basics, you know, the, For a horse to move in that big a trot, it might take so much power from them, they can't actually be supple in a movement like Traver or something. So, you know. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's all of that stuff that, you know, it's, it's hard to wrap up in one sentence, but it, it's, it's all that stuff that you say, okay, well, I want to put, I want suppleness or accuracy or understanding of these foundations. Excuse me. I want to put that before I ask my horse to trot super well because, you know, I think, okay, well, later when my horse understands this, I can then ask the horse, my horse to trot, and then I'm going to combine the two to get the horse to trot really well through the movement. But that might be 18 months away.

Yeah, that's a really, that's a super interesting idea because it requires us to have the wisdom to know that we need to put out our ego aside. That, that's what I immediately thought of when you said that, like, okay, let's put the ego aside for a minute.

Yeah.

And focus on something else, not the fan.

So without sort of taking us too far on a tangent too early in this, you know, the time in the sport and understanding just the overall picture, you know, our job is to try to get this horse whatever, you know, we've chosen to, as high or as best version of themselves in the sport of dressage as we can. And from understanding their body type, their temperament, their, the, the issues that are presented through training, the fundamentals, from understanding all of those parts of the horse, you can then go, okay, well, I, I, I think I'm going to go this path to create all the movements that I think are going to, you know, make this horse the best version of himself or get my horse to Grand Prix. And as we know, like you, training a horse to Grand Prix level is, you know, let's say, the equivalent of trying to climb Mount Everest. And I'm sure that those people who have climbed Mount Everest don't take the same track every single time. Like there's a different track according to different circumstances. And that's a bit the same with training horses. The fundamental objective is the same. Let's get to the top of Mount Everest. Like let's get a horse to Grand Prix. But what circumstances present then make it, make you take a different path. So you know, you might train the pia passage one way, like a slightly different way, get the half past bit of the pirouettes better, whatever it might be slightly different way according to every different horse, but the objective and the principles and the foundation of everything is exactly the same.

So the pavrism we're talking about today is nothing replaces time in this sport. Now, Brett, I think sometimes when riders start feeling a bit impatient in terms of the time things are taking, they might look to change things up. So I'd like to talk to you a little bit about consistency over time and allowing ourselves to settle into a training system or a philosophy for a long term versus thinking. Okay, at what point do we know this isn't working? Something needs to change here. Whether that means a new trainer, a new environment of some kind. How do we balance that consistency over time versus this isn't working. Change needs to happen.

Yeah, I mean that, that is a good point. And I, and, and I, I think when I think about the, the, the, the, the comment nothing replaces time in the sport. What, what I want, what I was wanting people to take from that is be patient, calm down, st for long term. Because really what horses want from us, all they want from us is consistency, providing we are consistent and we offer the same information every day in a, in an understandable way. You know, pressure release aids that escalate, soft aid, slightly firmer, slightly firmer again to create a response. Now, of course they're not going to like the, the firmest aid, but the firmest aid is the aid that will promote, will promote, will get the response of which we decide. We relax the pressure and we reward or do we repeat or what do we do? But we need some version of escalation or, and variation in the aid so we can actually then have a light aid that gets a good response. That's, that's how we want to get that. So, so having a rider who's prepared to first of all think of this as a longer time, like a longer process, secondly, not jump around the moment something feels bad. And this, this is what drives me crazy is, and I'm just thinking of it from a horse's perspective, not from a Person who, who want, who wants to do really well in the sport. I'm thinking it from their horse's perspective now. Of of course, if something's cruel, change it immediately. Like if something that you think that you're doing or you're being told to do is just, does not fit with your horse friendly nature and it happens to be an ongoing thing, of course something short and sharp needs to be done and that sometimes is just, just simply training animals. Short and sharp, little smack bang reward or whatever. Like that's part of training, it's part of, it's part of training children and I don't want to get in that part. I wouldn't say I'm the best, I'm the best child trainer either but, but it's training people, people in general. Any animals. You know, you know, I go and be rude at a restaurant and someone says hey, pull your head in. Of course I, I can eat. You know, like that's just life. So the, the escalating aids are part of it. So I want, I prefer writers go, okay, well yes, I agree with the principles in what I'm doing. Like it's not cruel. Maybe I'm not applying them as good as possibly I could and my horse is not really responding. I'm going to look at myself and I'm going to get better at applying these aids, these principles. I'm going to slow things down, I'm going to get better at these skills. I prefer a ride to do that. Then go, oh, it's not working. Oh, where can I find the next answer? Where can I find the next magic bullet? Because I can guarantee that rider will only become more and more confused and then they are applying confused information to their horse and then they're expecting their horse to find some clarity in this. And that's the bit that annoys me is like when riders are making decisions, firstly think of how this information is going to the horse. How is my interpretation of training dressage to get myself to Grand Prix? How is my interpretation being relayed to my horse? On a consistency basis, on a pressure release basis, on a, forget, just forget the scores on a competency basis, on a, basis of setting up great foundations for my horse from medium level onwards. How am I going? I'll give myself a score of 10 and just think of it like that. And, and, and, and, and think of it of well, I'm happy with my coach, I'm happy with my system. I probably need to get more knowledge around my system and how this does relate to grand Prix in the end, because, you know, that's essentially what we're doing the sport for. But I'm happy that. And I just need to get better and just reflect on those questions rather than just chop and change or give up. You know, that's another one person gets so frustrated, they just give up. Like, give yourself time to understand this and process it and go through it and give your horse time to understand it and process it and figure it out.

That's the thing. I mean, those circumstances in which riders might feel that it's time for them to give up or it's time for them to switch trainers, they might just be on the edge of that point where the penny drops and everything falls into place.

Yeah, I mean, I don't see anyone giving up or switching trainers when everything's going really well.

Right.

It's only when things are going bad. Now in training horses, there's going to be high points and low points and bad moments, and these moments might go for months because horse is resisting and not wanting to do stuff. And then we go, okay, maybe it's my saddle, maybe it's my, you know, needs to see the body specialist, whatever. Maybe it's my system. Have I really understood the journey to Grand Prix? Now the questions are getting harder. Are my foundations really good? Like, spend more time there to think about it. And like I say, it's only when things are going bad and when. In, in my experience, when things are going bad is when you actually learn the most. You actually, if you've got that little bit of self awareness and ability to reflect on yourself, you actually ask way more questions when things are going badly than when things are going really well. When things are really well, you don't ask any questions at all. All you think is like, wow, how good am I? And how good is this guy? So it's only when. And, and, and to be honest, you're not alone. Like, things go poorly. Often training animals like, that's just the way it is. They're trying to figure out how to get out of it and we're trying to figure out how to get them into it. So trying to, when things are going badly, really break things down. And you'll find you'll learn so much more doing that than switching, changing, going on tangents, that's another one. Tangents are another way of saying you're being inconsistent and, and try to just keep developing your training system. Like, look at it like, I'm, I'm building a training system here. Might, might take me five years might take me 10 years. I'm building a training system because I love the sport of dressage. I'm building a training system that I can put any type of horse into and I will figure out a way to train them to bring out the best in that horse. And that's, if you look at it like that, I think riders will then invest way more time into themselves rather than, oh, watch this YouTube clip. And I'll go here and I'll get this little bit of snippet of info and the whole thing and just chopping and changing. Like, really take the time to build a good training system around yourself and build the knowledge.

So we're talking about the pabrism. Nothing replaces time in this sport. And I guess on the flip side of that, Brett, sometimes we can come across a circumstance with riding where perhaps a rider is inadvertently taking too much time in that they get stuck or they're actually their worst enemy and they hold themselves back. So sometimes we see riders in that situation coming to us in the gold program, they say, look, something needs to change. I've been stuck at XYZ level, often around that novice type of level. I've been stuck there for several years. I haven't been able to get out, you know, and this is a case where time is working against them in a way. They've been there too long and they need to move on. What do you think is the issue in these sorts of situations?

Oftentimes it's a lack of confidence and a lack of confidence, but also a lack of just understanding that, that I want to go to this level but don't really know how to get there. And, and yes, they're getting their lessons and yes, their coach is doing a great job. But has, you know, have they really sat down and looked at the full sport, the full spectrum of the sport? You know, I'm, you know, that brighter might be a novice now, want to go to elementary. They don't even imagine they'll ever go to medium, which is flying changes and half passes. But if they take the time to break it down and go, okay, well a half pass is just a Trevor on a diagonal. A flying change is just a, a simple change with no walk step, you know, and just break it down. Of course it's going to be hard to train, but break it down in their own mind and, and, and, and develop the confidence to try things. Even if they get it wrong, just try it and, and, and, and apply. Really become very meticulous about what aids they are using to get what responses from the different parts of the horse. So you know what might stop a rider? So. So, for example, a rider doing novice is doing leg yield, you know, parallel to long side, moving laterally and. But they, they're terrified to try and do traver. You know, they've already taught their horse to yield away from their leg, as leg yield would say, now let's teach it to yield from the. Like another. In another body position away from my outside leg. And now can I keep my horse's shoulders on this one particular line? Can I ask for some deflection and bend at the same time, going in the direction of travel? And can I start to take my, you know, that yielding away from leg aids and start putting it into other things like Travis, like actually take the time to experiment and, and don't say to yourself, oh, there's no way I could possibly do that. Well, the only thing stopping you is actually trying is putting the aids on the horse and going through the process of the horse not knowing what you want, resisting what you want, giving you what you want, rewarding, repeating all that process that's involved with training a horse to do something, just go through it. Even in the walk, you know, it doesn't have to be. And just because it's not big and fancy like you might see some of the professional riders doing, don't worry, like, just, you will build this. It is a sport of development and the development that you will put into your horse by chipping away every day, little bits, getting confidence in your own aids, giving that confidence to your horse, you'll build it. And all of a sudden, next thing you are doing a half pass across a diagonal. And so, But I think you, a lot of riders will avoid that. It's a bit like, you know, it's a bit human nature, isn't it? We avoid the things that are going to be uncomfortable. And, you know, no one ever said dressage was comfortable. It looks comfortable when it's done really well. But the actual process, the actual process of training it is actually making lots of mistakes and putting yourself in uncomfortable positions to train the horse and then. And develop that way. So just getting that concept through to them and giving the riders the sort of confidence to make mistakes and try new things.

You know, that's reminded me of an example from the Gold program that we run in Performance Writers. This happened just the other week, actually. So a writer had a question for you, and it was about the fact that she had been stuck in, you know, I think it was novice level for some years. And we said, we'll send a video in and Brett will review it as part of the training huddles that we run now. She wasn't moving on from novice because she wasn't happy with where she was placing in the class and. And where she was scoring.

She should.

She thought that she should have been. The results should have been better, and she couldn't really see what else she could be doing better. So we all looked at the video. You know, Brett, you looked at the video and said, well, you know, you're actually doing a fantastic job. You're totally ready to go to the next level. The fact that you're not scoring as high as some of the other horses, different horses at this level, who cares? And it was just a complete reframe for her that she needed.

She was doing a great job. Beautiful rhythm, beautiful balance. Horse was on the bit, connected, making great transitions. You know, he was a nice. Was he a pony? I can't remember he was a pony, but a nice one, Like a really nice pony. And he's there competing against the big moving warmbloods and not getting the same scores. But, I mean, he was being competitive. He was. He was sort of 65 and better. And I'm like, well, what are you waiting for? Like, don't you know, you. You are showing a real competency at this level. Just move on and go. Because the further you train, that's the one thing with dressage. The higher you go in the sport, the more the training has influence over the horse's results. Because at the lower levels, there's not a lot of training required in doing a prelimina novice test, a little bit of leg yield, some transitions, that's it. It's not an enormous amount of training. The horse's natural abilities are way more influential on the horse's score. And but the further you go up the levels, the more the training influences the overall score. So, yeah, I said you need to just focus on. Because you are a nice rider and you will do a good job at the higher levels. You need to now back your training to get you up, get your scores better. And that's. That's the case. And you. You see that a lot, actually. I mean, there. There is always the flip side. And I guess you can't really make a comment like, nothing replaces time in this sport without looking at the flip side. And there are examples of people who have not been in the sport for very long who have done super well. And I think the one who comes to my Mind. First up is Charlotte Dujardin. Like, what an amazing story. Her story was. I mean, she's been in the sport now for a long time. She's been 15 or more years, but she won a gold medal in the first five years of doing dressage. Absolutely unheard of. Now, you know, I know Charlotte, not well, but I know her and she's a freak. There's no doubt she's a freak. She is a driven person in everything she does, whether it's the gym, whether it's training horses, whatever. And then supported by a fellow with Carl who has many, many years in the sport, and the pairing of those two produced Valegro and, and have produced many horses since. And she's, she's one of the best riders in the world. So, you know, there is those, there, there are examples like that. But fundamentally, I think for us, me mortals, the time in the sport of is. Is so important and to give yourself the opportunity to. And your horse more so your horse to process and understand exactly what it is that we're trying to do and, and get away from this throwaway culture that probably. And this fast culture that we tend to find ourselves in. In the, you know, nowadays, there's some things haven't changed and a horse's brain is the same as it was 100 years ago. They still process things the same. Horsemanship, you know, for lack of a better word, horse, womanship, horse, whatever, that is the same no matter what, from your days and they were riding their horses to school to today, the horses, the horsemanship that's involved with training the horse, pressure, release, repeat reward is exactly the same. So therefore we come to this, living in this fast life social media. Look at me. Big, big, big, you know, like ego, Ego, ego, whatever it might be, we must put time right up there as, as I'm signing up, I love the sport, I'm signing up for this. It's a journey to Grand Prix. It's a sport of development. If I need to take the time, I'm prepared to do it. If I need to find the information, I will, I will find it through research, through being intelligent, and I will, I will build a system of training that I can put any horse into and make them the better version of themselves. And you know what, Nat? If someone had told me that when I was 25, all of this, which I. Which I wish they did, I would have made. Wouldn't have made near the mistakes I've made, I would have gone, oh, yeah, it sounds great. Yeah, yeah, I get that. But I didn't. I didn't get it.

Ah, yeah. You can't get it until you get it. But isn't that fascinating, Brett? You know, today we're talking about the pabrism, as I call it, that you mentioned, which was nothing replaces time in this sport. And the last point I'd love to discuss with you is the fact that as riders, we're so lucky, because actually, we do have a lot of time as riders. Maybe we don't have so much time with individual horses, but as riders over our career, we have time. There are successful riders riding well into the latter half of their life. And, you know, in other sports, we could be done by 25. So I think we're just so lucky with that. Can you think, Brett, of an example of a rider who you think has just got better and better over time and their lifespan as a rider?

Well, I think the classic is Carl, like. Like, Carl has always been a great rider, don't get me wrong. And he's always lived by a very strong philosophy of horse first, you know, he's. He's not a guy that has gone against his principles to make a horse sort of do one single job and then throw it away. He's happy being the guy who just brings the best out in the horse, even if that puts him in number 25 in the world. And what's happened there is as horse quality that's come into his barn has become better, as he's been able to probably select more horses for himself, as he's had. As he's been able to develop a pipeline of horses coming through his system, and as the sport has, you know, as it does evolves and changes and things change and trends change with the sport, it's completely come to the point where he is just at his absolute best in his mid-50s. Now, of course, he's been probably since London Olympics 2010, it has been very much about the way Carl's system and the people that ride with Carl and the way, you know, which is 13 years ago now, sorry, 11 years ago now. But he's. He's been doing this since he was in his early 20s or late, late teens, you know, so definitely, as Carl has gotten older from, say, let's say, you know, 40, 40 early 40s to now, he is just at his prime. And then the job that he did on the horse, you have to forgive me, I can't even think of the horse's name, but the horse he had the European Championships this year, just beautiful. Like, what a Beautiful job that he did. He'd be the highest profile one that I know of, who is just at his best at this level. There are others, but he's the best one. I mean, but you get people like Isabel Worth. I mean, she's just amazing. Like, she's just been at such a high level all the way through her career. Yeah, the list goes on. But, yeah, and I. And I do. I could probably reflect on myself, to be totally honest. You know, operating here in Australia predominantly on my own, I find that as the longer I spend in the sport, so coming back to our time, the clearer I become and the better my system gets and the more aware I become, I feel like I'm personally riding as good as I've ridden with the understanding of where I'm going with each horse and what I'm doing with them. And Happy, Happy being midfield on a horse that's not really ready to show off until later and when. And, you know, trying to understand the.

Full journey because you can see where it's headed. That. That's why, you know, it's actually a perfect way to end the conversation really, because we've come full circle. You feel you're riding better than you ever have, despite the niggles, you know, that we're all getting as we age, and you've had significant injuries as well, that you stood manage, but despite that, you. You still feel you're riding better than ever. And that's because of everything we've talked about today, that over the years you've developed the patience, knowledge, wisdom and understanding that a horse might come 20th in a class. And that's okay, because that's not the end goal. You're working towards something better further down the track.

Yeah. And if I do my job properly, you know, all will be revealed. My horse will be the best version of itself at. At Grand Prix. And. And, you know, it's. It is really. And if I've chosen my horses correctly and the right way, and if I've designed the system of training around their strengths and weaknesses, that that should be exactly how it plays out. So. Yeah, but. But it's fun. I mean, like, just. Just having the concept in your mind that this is a sport of development and we are developing these horses like they are not only elite athletes, but they're almost like a bit of a signature of our. Of our artwork. You know, they are a reflection of us and that. That muscling and body type and character and confidence and happiness in the horse is a real reflection of us and, And That I think if we can look at it like that, that this is our sculpture, this is our. Our artwork. This is our. This is our masterpiece. And we. We carefully craft that. I think that's a great way to look at. Look at producing a dressage horse, because we are in it for so long, and, you know, our horses, they are hitting their peak from 10 to 15 years old, and some of them after that, they're not horses like in the thoroughbreds and that are young and they're finished, or in the Western sports, where they're young and finished. We are developing these horses over 5, 8, 10 years. So we do need to think of it as a very Much a sport of development. That's a slow grind, but very rewarding one.

I absolutely love that idea that what we're creating in the horse is a reflection of where we at as writers in a particular time, where we're at as people at a particular time. I love that.

Very good. Well, I'm glad I could at least justify that one line that I threw out there, however many years ago that was.

Look, I don't want to freak you out, but I've actually, as you've been talking, scribbled down two new potpourrisms to use in the future. You just can't help but to come out with them. Thank you, Brett. A fascinating conversation, and I'm looking forward to lots more just like this on this podcast.

My pleasure, Nat. Thank you.