https://www.listennotes.com/e/bfd7af6172ba49aeb7ce4270345fc4c9

From performanceriders.com this is the Pabry podcast. I'm Nat Foxen and each episode I challenge World equestrian Games top 10 dressage writer Brett Parbury to explain and discuss what I call a Parburyism. That's a pearl of wisdom I've written down over the years of working together in our performance writers programs. Brett doesn't know what today's Pabraism is. Let's get into it. Okay, Brett, it is that time. I have another stolen pabrism for you. Are you ready?

I'm ready. Let's go.

All right, this one is stolen from the awesome Laura Graves, former world number one ranked dressage rider. We recently had her on our gold program and we were really inspired. The the stolen barbaryism. The Laura Graves ism I've got for you is you have to believe in dressage beyond the sport. Okay. You have to believe in dressage beyond the sport. Brett, what does that mean to you?

I love that because what it said to me when Laura said that was, you know, the training of the dressage principles and the system of training is actually as much about horse welfare, horse health, horse training as it is about winning ribbons in dressage. So the horse on a journey to Grand Prix becomes a better version of itself as you train them because they become more gymnastic, more elastic, more confident in themselves. Everything about the training is about bringing out the best in the horse. And then we've chosen to compete in dressage. That's what it says to me. And, and I know exactly what she's saying. I've had that thought myself quite a few times, is in the sense of. And I've got 20 year old, like my son rides a 20 year old schoolmaster here. That horse, at 20 years old is still as fit and as healthy and as elastic and as vibrant in his personality as he was when he was 12. And it's because of the really good quality dressage training. Now that's the difference, right, is in the quality of the riding, the quality of the training, the way in which the trainer or coach or however we want to call ourselves as the rider, how we put the horse through that training. And I mean, I know I'm, I'm now entering, I'm in my early 50s, and I'm also training to, to improve my flexibility, health, strength, mental fitness as I get older. So it makes sense that a living thing being trained in a good way, not with pressure, you know, too much. And, and in a way where it's good, balanced, methodical, systematic training, it Makes the horse better in themselves. It's a better version of the horse than the one was before. So then that says to me that you've got to think of dressage as not only competing in dressage, it's actually you're engaging in something bigger and better for the horse.

Yeah. Which is such an important topic for us to think about in this climate where we, where we are all thinking about what is the role of the horse in our lives and we're analyzing the use of the horse in sport. It's an important thing to think about. Right.

Yeah. Well, that's a great point, actually, when you say that and you put it in that context. You often hear the word social license today and you hear of. And I know the Danish Federation are doing a review at the moment which has sort of made a lot of people sit up and go, oh, there's a federation reviewing whether the. The sport in which they are overseeing is acceptable on a social level in today's. In today's era, which for a lot of us it's like, why is that needed? But when the Danish Federation finish their findings and they come back and they go, well, yes, we carry on, but there's a few things we can improve. It's actually probably not a bad process because we are under far more scrutiny than these days across. You know, it's a far more connected global society with a lot more scrutiny on all different types of both human and animal treatment. And so for us to, To. To think about our sport as being a way in which we can enhance the quality of a horse's life by. By. And horses like to learn, you know, they don't like. I don't know why these people think they don't actually like standing in paddocks bored. If it's all they know, perhaps they do. But when they learn about when the horses enjoy grooming, they enjoy exercise, they enjoy being washed, they enjoy getting fed, they enjoy the shelter, they enjoy the learning. You can see when you're a horse person like us, you can see the horse enjoying it. You can see them getting those little. You know, I don't know if it's dopamine or whatever it is, but you can see the little releases that they get and they. They actually really enjoy it. So to think of it as dressage is basically a completely holistic way of training a horse for 100% gymnastic. I'm struggling for words now, but 100% gymnastic sort of flexibility, fitness, using all parts of their body in a balanced way, then it puts a completely different kind of light on dressage. Yeah, of course, competing dressage, and this is possibly where dressage has gotten itself into trouble, is because when we compete dressage, some of those principles we just discussed can sometimes go out the window or be rewarded by the judges that not everyone agrees with. So, yeah, I think it probably even frames it better to think about we're engaging in something, let's call it Pilates for horses or whatever you want to call it.

Yeah.

That helps them age mentally, physically and helps them enjoy their life and. Yeah, because, I mean, you show me a horse in a paddock that's 20 years old and I'll show you a horse that, that, that can look depressed and old and no muscle.

Wasted.

Yeah, wasted away. So, you know, there's no arguments, there's no arguments for that. But there's also no arguments for bad writing. You know, it all comes down to how good, how good the writing is that we apply in the training system and all the rest.

And we might dig in a bit more into that in a minute. I'm curious also to hear your thoughts on. Okay. If we subscribe to this idea that it's imperative for us to believe in dressage beyond the sport. If we think that, then what happens when there's a situation where we think, well, it's actually in the horses best interest, maybe long term for me not to compete and I want to compete, but best for me not to compete at this point, like, that gets really interesting, I think, trying to work your way through those issues, especially as a professional rider.

So you're saying that if the horse is not ready, you're still, you're still intent, your intention is to compete, but the horse is not quite ready.

Yeah. You might want to compete and you know, to bring it back to Laura. Laura was saying that it was fascinating, actually. She was saying that she has tried to produce young horses for the young horse competitions. She has tried, but she felt like that wasn't. Her system, didn't fit that mold.

Yeah, yeah, and I agree with that. Like, I, I agree that, that I think, I think. And I even had this example on the weekend. But I think that a lot of. There's a, there's a, there's a slanted perspective on why we compete. Like out there. Like, there's this. Ultimately my view is you compete when the show. When you're ready, not when the show is on. And you don't do a thousand shows. Like, what are you proving there? The. The goal that we're in is to train the horse to be competent at dressage, or, you know, let's even take a wider lens. Just train the horse to have a better life and then compete in dressage. And why would you then force it to. And look, we've all had to do this. I'm not trying to say I'm some saint. Like, I'm a professional rider. I've had to take horses to shows that weren't ready because of other pressures, you know, financial. From owners and the likes of. But ultimately, if you apply common sense to this, why would you do it if you're not ready? One, why would you do it if you have to force the animal to actually get through the test? Two, what, like, what, what, what are we feeding here? Are we feeding the ego of an owner? The ego of a rider? The, the. The financial conversation to an owner? Like, okay, yes, I understand all those pressures too, but not one of those things, actually, does the horse have a say in. The horse tells you when they're ready. And of course, there's nothing more rewarding than training with a purpose, entering a show, going to the show and actually have your training really come out on the day and be rewarded for it like that. That is great, too. So I'm not sort of trying to sit on the fence of saying I don't compete. Like, actually competing is great and it's a real buzz and the horses always come home from shows better. I always find.

Um, and also, I, I guess also, ideally, the competition is productive and constructive feedback on the quality of your training, which we've just decided is in the best interest of the horse.

Yeah, yeah. And I don't want this to be construed either of, of like, not training the horse like we're training the horse. Like, it's like when I go to the gym, I use this example all the time. I go to the gym, if I just mope around and wander around and hop on a bit of equipment here and there, I'm not going to get any better either. Yeah, I have to work hard to get better. And it's a little bit like the same. We have to get the horses to, to, to be willing to work hard, then give them rewards and then give them breaks, just like any athlete would. And so. And then go to the show when you're ready. Like, I think I can only really speak for Australia, but I guess it would be worldwide. It'd be a worldwide problem. But there's this, there's this underlying thing of, oh, go to the show, go to the show, go to the competition or why didn't you go to that show? When are you taking that horse to a show? Yes. Well, at the end of the day, I'll take it when I'm ready and I'll take it when the horse is ready. And when we. And it's almost like, measure twice, cut once. There's an old building thing. Like, you measure twice and cut once. Like, why go to the show and have a bad result on the wing in a prayer that you might have had a good result.

Yes. Oh, that is so relatable.

Unless. And I'll just be devil's advocate, unless you're working on something else. Could be. Could be the writer has competition nerves and anxiety and they want to work on that. I guess the conversation we're having is, you know, trying to go to the show and get a good result. But if there's other purposes to go the show, the horse gets a bit nervous. The horse needs to be exposed more. They're all valid reasons to go to lots of shows.

Yeah, but it's intentional.

There's an intention, there's an intent to that. Exactly. There's an intent. Yeah. This is the purpose. And of course, in that situation, the result is neither here nor there. In the conversation, it's, did I achieve my purpose today? But just go to shows because they're on and keep going and going and going, going and then pressuring your friends, why aren't you going to shows that I can't understand?

Just a quick message from us. If any of the ideas discussed today resonate with you and you'd love to dive deeper, head over to performanceriders.com there's a bunch of free content for you and there's loads of opportunities as well to work with us by enrolling in one of our training or Mentoring Programs, performanceriders.com Today, our papyrism is a stolen one from the incredible American dressage writer Laura Graves, who was a guest trainer in our program recently. And we were very inspired and took this stolen pabrism from her, which is you have to believe in dressage beyond the sport. So, Brett, you mentioned that of course, this relies on a high quality of training. The benefits of dressage are there when the quality. Quality of training from. From the rider, the trainer is high. So what sort of training or when is it in the highest good for the horse?

Wow. I mean, you could talk for hours on that one. But. But, okay, let's. I've always had a theory, right? If we woke up tomorrow morning and the And I'll use the Danish Federation or say the FEI came out and said, oh, by the way, guys, there's no other sport in dressage other than Grand Prix, right? That's the only chance you get to compete in dressage. Now, hypothetically, is Grand Prix. The other levels don't. We don't have that anymore.

Yeah, okay.

Right. So just assume that world.

Okay.

I would be interested to see how breeding would change, how training would change, how, you know, how many people would stick it out. I mean, that's, you know, sadly. Sadly I say that because I'd love to think that everyone would stick it out and really immerse themselves in the journey to Grand Prix. Because the reason I say that is because the Grand Prix is an amalgamation of movements that are there to find your weaknesses in your training and your horses. Right? It's just this. It's this compilation of 26 or whatever it is, movements that are trying to find your weaknesses. And the good riders know that. So back early in the training, they kind of say, oh, this horse has a weakness here, which. And this is where experience helps. Has a weakness here, so that'll be a weakness there. So I'm going to start improving it now. And they also know their own weaknesses. So when they get to Grand Prix, they generally don't have as big a fall off the cliff. So their training system. And that's someone like Laura, right? So someone like Laura Graves has the perspective of someone who's been to the top of Grand Prix and now knows this is the requirements that are needed for that level. And this is how my system does it. And by the way, my system doesn't really allow for the young horse thing. You know, I've tried it, I've tried to tweak it. I didn't like it, and I'm not going to do it. Right? I'm just going to do. Just going to keep on this Grand Prix thing, journey and in the way of. And then. And then that's. That's allowed her to become philosophical enough to go. And by the way, my horses all improve with my system. They get better mentally, they get better physically. So maybe even if there was no dressage sport, this is probably the best way I could give this horse a great life, because I love riding horses and I love working with horses. But, you know, the horse actually is better for it. Like, it feels good, the horse is happy, the horse is healthy. So that's what's made. That's what's given Laura the worldliness to make that Sort of a statement. And, and that would. That happens when Grand Prix becomes your focus. So coming back to my statement of tomorrow morning, we wake up, there's only one sport, and dressage, that's Grand Prix. It really does give you a different perspective across the whole training system, breeding, the whole sport. And I say that from a. I don't want to say that like, oh, by the way, there's only a few of us get to Grand Prix and it's a club and you're not welcome. Everybody's welcome. Everybody is welcome. To get to this club, into this club or in this level, it is not easy. And the entry fee is very high when it comes to skinning the game. Commitment, discipline, you know, having highs and lows, you know, all that, the entry fee is high, but when you get there, you, it's. You go, ah, now I get it. Now I get why dressage is dressage, right? And that's a beautiful moment. And then you realize how little you know, right? And then you start soul searching to try and find, oh, these are my weaknesses, I now know them. How can I fix them?

Yeah, okay, that's really interesting. So there's something in that idea that perhaps if we get a little bit distracted with success at the lower levels, this might be getting us a little bit off track in terms of training in a way that's to the benefit of the horses, is that right?

I can tell you I've had this myself and I've made these mistakes and. But one of the biggest derailers of future success is success at a level where you're, especially in dressage, where your training is, is not completely on the right way. You're too naive or inexperienced to notice it. And I'm saying this, I've made these mistakes, but to get rewarded there, and you think, wow, I'm getting rewards like giving lollies to you. You're getting these sugar hits because you're going well, you're winning and you're getting famous and all these things. But behind all that, the training system is not what's required for later. So it's one of the biggest derailers. And of course, what happens to that journey? You have to hit a rock, a cliff. You cannot. The only thing that stops that train is a cliff. And, and the cliff is, I get to Grand Prix and I can't piave. I get to Grand Prix and I can't do periods. I get to hear I can't do this. And. And then when someone comes along and says, oh, the Reason why you can't do that is because your horse needs to learn these skills and you haven't taught him or her any of those skills up until this point. And those skills are going to take two or three years. And by the way, because you've now missed it, you're probably going to take more than that because the horse learned other resistances. So. So then you're like, oh, my goodness, I've just fallen off a cliff. And that's. And I call it hitting rock bottom. There's nothing. Hitting rock bottom is actually one of the best things can happen to someone on a journey because it makes you completely look across your whole system, your whole system, your whole thing. And then you realize all those successes were only setting me up for failure. And, yeah, it's really interesting. You can get very philosophical about this once you've been in it long enough and you've made all these mistakes.

I think as we start to wrap up this conversation, I've written a bunch of notes, as I often do, and I've put a big circle around one, which was when you were talking about Laura's training system, Laura Graves, who's inspired this whole conversation, and you were saying that, you know, you think she would. She probably has a confidence that her horses improve in her training system, physically and mentally. I just wanted to sort of put a pin in that, that little quote, because I thought that was so brilliant. And I think that's the crux of this whole conversation, that each of us, when we look at what we're doing with our horses, we want to be able to be confident that our horses are improving and benefiting physically and mentally. That's what it all comes down to, right?

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And, you know, there's this big push in the world for horse welfare. Well, I've always done it. I've always tried to do it this way.

Yes.

Like, haven't we all, like, I think, think 99 of people have always been on this path. Yeah, of course, we're shining a light on it now, but the majority of good horse men and women engaging in the spoiled dressage have been on this path for a long, long time. So, but that, that's, that's the benefit and that's what someone like a Laura Graves, who, you know, you could only, you only had to hear her speak to know that she's a fantastic horse woman and, and then to hear the story of her training Vedades, who was an amazing horse, and how that could have gone so wrong because he's a quirky character. And how she. I mean, she's. That horse has taught her way more than she's taught him.

Right.

You know, because she couldn't. There's no way she could be this worldly and have this much vision and philosophy and understanding without a beaut. Without a horse like that to teach her. And. And that's what I loved about it, is those lessons weren't lost on her. The lessons he taught her were not lost. She's thought about it, she's interpreted it, she's implementing her system, she's fine tuning it. And she. And yeah, and I think we just got a snippet. A snippet of the benefits of what that relationship, like, the fruits of that relationship between her and the horse. And. Yeah, it's. It's really good. Really, really good. It's exactly the discussions that the fei, I believe, should be having and. And educating the outside world on. This is actually what our sport is.

Yes, exactly.

This is exactly what it is.

Well, I love a bit of a philosophical conversation, and this was exactly what we get. Thanks so much to Laura Graves for the inspiration, and thank you so much, Brett, for a robust, fantastic conversation.

Pleasure. Thank you, Nat.