Sales is a Numbers Game – Brian Gubernick on Path to Mastery Podcast — The Persistent Entrepreneur

Working across teams is tough, but Asana helps you handle it. That's because Asana is where humans and AI coordinate work together. AI can spot roadblocks and assign work in a snap, so everything and everyone stays on track. That's how work gets handled. That's Asana. Visit us at asana.com. That's A-S-A-N-A dot com. Masters, listen, I'm doing a webinar this Tuesday, okay, at 3 PM Eastern time, and I would love to have you come as my guest if you're interested. It's going to be on how to find the most motivated sellers. It's absolutely free. Go to Facebook and search Path to Mastery, request to join the group. I will get you in right away. If this is after September 17th, then it's a irrelevant. But if you listen into it on the 16th, I hope you join the group. Join us on that webinar, Facebook Path to Mastery. Hope to see you on the webinar. Enjoy this episode.

You rock. Everybody in your database right now, especially your SOI, they're on your website and they're probably on 7 others. So don't take those relationships for granted. I think now more than ever, We've got to be out belly to belly in front of people telling our story and becoming the economist of choice. If you want to have a big business, if you truly want to have success, you're going to have to learn your math. You're going to have to incorporate math into your world, right? So just accept it. If you don't want to grow or build a big business, that's totally cool too. But then you're operating like a realtor, and I'm going to encourage you to operate like a business person. Business people know their numbers.

Masters, welcome to another episode of Path to Mastery. And today we have Brian Gubernick with us. Brian, what is up, my friend?

What's up, David? I appreciate you having me. I'm glad we finally were able to make it happen because I know I've been a bit of a pain in getting on the line. So thanks for working with me, man.

Nah, man, it's been really good. I appreciate you. And it's funny, actually, if you think about it, I know we tried to connect at Mega Camp, which we weren't able to make happen. Well, I think I'm going back, what, maybe 2 and a half years or so. We were trying to get you on the podcast and somehow it fell through the cracks. So I'm glad we were finally able to make it happen. You may be the longest guest that I think ever tried to get on the podcast. So congratulations, man.

Thank you for your, for the patience and persistence. I appreciate that, man. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

You got it, my friend. Well, listen, you're doing a lot of things I know, and you're doing a lot of things at a high level. A little bit about you, I know you have a team that you've had since what, 2007? Is that when you started your team?

That's right. February of '07 is when I started selling. And I think the team probably came about at a necessity a couple months after that. So, yeah, it's been around just over 12 years now.

Yeah. And I think I met you probably right after that in the Gary Keller Mastermind. Well, that was around 2011. This year, you guys are going to break what, about $100 million in volume? And you're in multiple locations.

Yeah, we should be around that. And we are in multiple locations, as a good friend of yours, Adam Hergenrother, likes to recognize or acknowledge. I started in the expansion game a couple months before him, which really bothers him, is that he always wants to be number one.

I thought he actually was. He wasn't, huh?

No, don't let him tell you that. Don't let him fool you. Actually, the funny thing is, whoever you ask, Ben Kinney, myself, or Adam, whoever you have on the phone, that was who started in expansion first. And so, We jokingly like to say, yeah, we had the opportunity to go out and fail.

Yeah.

And burn it down miserably. Yeah. So lucky us. But yeah, I got into that in about 2011.

How many locations are you in now?

Right now we're in Phoenix, Portland, Vegas, Oakland County, Michigan. I'm working on a Tucson project right now. And I like to be in Prescott, Arizona of all places because it's an hour and a half up the road. So I'd like to see some more second home business being done up there. So certainly still at the forefront of what I'm working on. And it's important to me.

Thinking back now, I remember when we were talking about this, I don't know what, 8 years ago maybe, you were actually doing expansion and you had your team and I think you were the first person that you were like going across the country. Like if something happened, you had to go from like Arizona to, I don't know, you were somewhere on the East Coast, right?

No, it was Seattle. And so, I was at a distance and the reason for that is you may recall When I got into expansion, it was truly out of necessity for me because my entire business— now, mind you, I started selling real estate February of '07, which, as you know, is the perfect time to start selling real estate in Phoenix, Arizona. Of course. So, we were right in the peak or the pinnacle, I should say, of the market crash at that time, or actually, it was starting to really ramp up. And so, my business was all short sales. And so, when I went to Seattle in July 2011, believe it or not, it was to extend the life of my business model, right? So, my short sale business model, which had flourished in Phoenix, Arizona, was slowly coming to an end as the market started recovering in Phoenix. Well, Phoenix oftentimes has the luxury of being ahead of the curve when it comes to certain things in real estate. Well, distress was one of those things. And so, I looked at a map, and said, "Well, who hasn't recovered yet?" Looked at a couple different cities and found myself in Seattle, having never been there before. Looked at the market stats, and I actually had a friend of mine, a real estate associate of mine up in Seattle, talking to me about short sales, and we got together, and he's like, "Why don't we just join forces?" And so, that's how I ended up expanding. It was really because my business— I had never sold traditional real estate.

I didn't know that.

Yeah, well, ironic. I mean, not that you'd remember this, David, but when you and I first met, I think I found you somewhere at Mega Camp or family reunion because you were, you were the expired guy. You were the cold call guy. And I'm like, I've got to learn what that guy's doing because he knows traditional real estate. Remember, I had been part of thousands of real estate deals at that point. Like 5 of them had equity in them. So, I actually knew nothing about the traditional business and I was trying to learn it in 2011, '12, and '13, when everybody else's businesses were recovering, I was actually experiencing my shift. So it was kind of ironic and funny. I actually had to learn traditional business at that point.

What up, Masters? Welcome to another episode of Path to Mastery Podcast. In this week, we have a phenomenal episode as always with Brian Gubernick. My friends, listen, Brian running a $100 million team, it's like his side gig. Literally, the guy teaches technology, He is an absolute rock star. He's got multiple teams in multiple locations, talented people, and we just have a great conversation. Really, I'll be honest with you, it's kind of all over the place, and obviously that's my fault, I'm the host, but there's just so many great nuggets there. And, you know, we talk about numbers, he talks about the technology changes, he talks about how, you know, the industry shifts and we need to shift with it. New iBuyer, you know, programs that are out there, just It's a phenomenal conversation. You're going to get a ton from it. And then the numbers, how important the numbers are to our business. I'll be honest, this is an area that I, you know, I'm better now. I'm better. I still need a lot of work in numbers, you know, and for years I struggled because I was not a numbers guy. I was good at grinding, but you know, I just did not hit my full achievement because numbers. And obviously I've gotten a lot better and I still got a long way to go, my friends. But that said, that's why it's great to have these types of conversations and, and, you know, connect with people like Brian and really pay attention to the things that he is sharing with us. And listen, that said, I just appreciate you listening to the podcast. We have a great sponsor, which is Vulcan 7. I'm using their services again. You know, I'm doing some prospecting kind of in between things right now. And I went back and I'm like almost like out of boredom doing some prospecting, calling fizzles and expireds. And I love their system. It's phenomenal. You got your data, you got your dialer, you got your built-in calendar. Everything you need to be successful. There's training, there's weekly webinars, there's videos. I mean, there's just so much. So check out vulcan7.com/pathtomastery for some special offers. vulcan7.com/pathtomastery. And also, if you want, you get yourself a free book. As you probably already know this, if you listen to my podcast, I'm always talking about free books, and everybody loves a free book, right? So I'll tell you a great book that I was actually listening to recently that was unbelievable. It's called Open, and it's actually the story of Andre Agassi. Wow. Phenomenal read. Just a phenomenal read. So check that out or check out any book you like on Audible. Get a free copy at davidsfreebook.com. My friends, listen, enjoy Brian. Next time you see me, say great job in your Ironman, and I will talk to you soon. You rock. It's funny, when I met you, I had asked you about short sales and we had got pretty deep into short sales as well, which honestly, I love doing short sales. I thought it was great. It's kind of easy business because they just, it's handed to you. You don't have to haggle with the sellers about price reductions. They're super grateful. They just want to go. You just have to make sure they're motivated, right? So, I saw the same thing once the industry started shifting back in, say, what was that? Maybe 2012, 2013-ish. All of a sudden, you had to kind of get used to doing traditional business again. You know, going back to what you said, you know, it's funny when you first said you needed to extend the life of your business. What first came to me was, oh, he needs to extend back into more traditional business. But you were saying you needed to extend the life of your business by finding more short sales. So, I mean, you're still in Arizona, right? Are you still doing short sales in Arizona or is it more traditional stuff? And how did you make that transition?

We're 99% traditional business. I still have one guy on my team who is still handling some of the short sales. And when I say some, I mean a handful of files.

Because there's not many out there now, right? Are there? Are there still a lot of short sales?

Not at all. We probably have 3, 4, 5 total at a time. Very, very few. And it's not through any sort of marketing effort, just finds its way to us through a referral or something of that nature. But I mean, I had 14, 15 guys and girls, headsets on, arguing with banks all day long. Now, I've got one guy still left and he actually lives up in Washington because at some point we moved him up there because our volume in Washington was so much greater than it was in Phoenix at the time. So, How did I learn it? You talk a lot around mastery. Well, I really had zero traditional experience. In 2013, when it had really started turning towards the traditional market for us, I was already out of production. I was working much more on the business versus in sales production. I was doing some short sale consultations, but I wasn't sitting at tables in living rooms. I wasn't doing that anymore. So I had to figure out, okay, am I going to go more or less learn this business or, not to be too cliché, Am I gonna find some people and bring them into my world that know it far better than I do? Don't get me wrong, it's not an excuse for— I had to go learn traditional business. I had to go learn traditional listing process. I had to go figure all that out because I wanted to lead people effectively. But my answer to that was to go find individuals that actually had more experience and leverage them and provide opportunity to them and build a business that way.

Instead of going after one individual seller, you went after agents that would bring 50 sellers with them. Is that right?

That's right. And then I did what many of us, I think, would do. I had some resources at the time. I had some relationships, having produced in this business for a little while at that moment. I started leveraging that. I was the guy that would get on a plane and go study so-and-so's model across the country and figure out, okay, is that the model I want to run in the traditional space? I mean, I'd go everywhere and I'd be making phone calls. I'd be studying everything online. Trying to determine what path I wanted to go in terms of traditional business model. That was a luxury I had at the time because, you know, when I first started my career, I had, you know, I was pretty much, my first 4 short sales were my own. So, you know, I started at the very bottom. Fortunately, over a 6-year run, I was able to buy some time, buy some plane tickets, leverage relationships, and actually learn.

[Speaker:ROBERT_LEONARD] What'd you do before real estate? I'm curious. What'd you do before real estate?

I was an accountant.

Oh, you're an accountant. Oh, so that's where the numbers all come into play. All right.

That makes sense now. Yeah. I went to school, graduated with an accounting degree, then went into public accounting for a couple of years. I was an absolutely terrible accountant, for what it's worth. I mean, they stuck me in a cube and said, "Go to work." And I hated it. I hated every day. It's kind of crazy when you look back because I always say, "Man, if they would have given me some sort of behavioral assessment, they would have recognized this was never going to work." But Man, this is a Fortune 100 company, did no sort of behavioral assessment on me or personality test or whatever you want to call it. And so, while I was great with the numbers, I was not a great fit as a staff accountant. So—

Why? Tell us why though. People listening to this conversation now, maybe they are really good at numbers, but how do they use that to become better at selling real estate? I know personally, and I know a lot of people that are really good at numbers, but they're not so good with people. And vice versa. So they, they kind of struggle. I don't know if that's what you were saying. I'm not— you seem like you're good with people.

I was good with people. I was relationship-based.

Okay.

And frankly, when I went to school, the major itself was competitive. I mean, like, it was all about your grades, and whoever had the best grades got the best job. And when I got out of school and went to work for a great public firm, Deloitte, I went in there, and after my first year, you know, they ranked us and The top guy got an 8% raise and the very bottom guy got a 4% raise. And I'm like, man, this corporate thing's not— I don't know if this is for me. And then, you know, it was kind of locking in a room and do accounting or auditing at the time. Just wasn't a great behavioral fit for me. I would say though, as it pertains to business though, while, you know, as far as numbers, like, how did that improve me as a sales agent? Early on, before I was coached up on it, I was always big into tracking my numbers and specifically my conversions. I knew my cost per lead, I knew my cost per closing, I knew all of my percentages. So when I was in the short sale game, for instance, by year 2 or 3, when I had a budget, I actually started doing a good amount of radio advertising. And I had a short sale calculator where you found out how upside down you were on your house. So I knew the quantity of inbound leads, and then I knew how many phone calls it was going to take to get them on the line, and then I knew once I presented what my conversion rate would be. And so, the math really helped tell the story of my business. I always said, and I know, David, you'd feel the same, it didn't really matter what business I was in, be it selling houses or selling tires, I would have run the same model and I would have taken the same approach. It just so happened we sold houses. Those numbers, in terms of tracking myself when I was originally in production, but then tracking my agents and coaching and holding accountable and improving skill. I think this is just a math equation, right? And so that's why, from an accounting background, I just had a passion for the numbers at a different level. Like a P&L, I wasn't fearful around my profit loss. I was actually excited to do the analysis. That was a great benefit for me because most realtors— not most that listen to your podcast, but most that are out there They judge whether or not they're having a good month by whether or not their checking account balance went up or went down. They're not maintaining a P&L and actually understanding the game of business. I just was blessed to already have some experience in that when I naively got into the real estate sales game, if that makes sense.

Well, it does. I mean, so it's going to make it a lot easier for you to invest $10,000. I don't know what you were spending on radio, but the average agent's going to be like, there's no way I can afford to spend $10,000 a month on radio advertising. But when you understand the numbers and what you're really investing in, then you know that the return's going to be there.

Oh, you're 100% right. Any method of lead generation, for that matter, right? Like, if you know your numbers and you know your lead measures and you know your lag measures, right? Like, I think too often we hold accountable to these results, and I get it, right? We all want results. But what are all the leading measures or leading indicators to get to that result? Like, how many inbound leads do I have? And then How many am I actually getting on the phone? And of those I get on the phone, how many quality conversations am I having and am I adding them to the database? You know, and then from there, appointments. And so, I just was, again, fortunate that I was already intrigued by that analysis and I felt like what I could measure, I could manage. And that's just an old Peter Drucker, father of business management quote. You know, what you measure, you can manage. So, that's how I landed there. That's what worked for me.

All right. And I think that answers the question on when you said earlier, business is a math equation. Is that what you're referring to or what exactly do you mean by that for our listeners?

Yeah. I would say that's exactly it. I think everything that you do in business, you truly can reduce down the numbers. Even in terms of, I know when I'm measuring, I'm always looking for a specific metric around what it is we're doing, even for my relationships with our operations and admin people. I think while it's difficult sometimes to quantify their performance, there are things that they're doing in their world that you can assign a metric to. For example, how many customer reviews are they getting or how long is it taking them to respond to things? I mean, these are all just numbers. Hmm. Right. And so I do think for me, if I could follow the math— now, that doesn't— not saying remove emotion from the equation entirely. Build relationships. Yes, that stuff's important. But I do think the one thing we can't run from are our numbers.

Yeah.

There's no subjectivity around the math. I mean, it either is or it isn't. And we can coach and train and mentor and develop based on those percentages of that equation.

You know, it's funny, this was an area that I was really, really weak in. I found out, you know, when I did my first AVA, I don't know what, 10 years ago, I was losing business because I was meeting with sellers that were numbers-based, and I would just show up and be like super optimistic and like, "Ah, don't worry, we're gonna get the job done. We've sold, you know, 50 houses in your neighborhood, and I sold the house next door." And they'd be looking at me like I was crazy, 'cause they still wanna know the numbers. And I learned that that was a big-time weakness for me, so it was something I really had to focus on. So what would you say to somebody that, you know, like you went to school for accounting, so obviously you had those skills or inherently you were good at it. What if somebody is not tracking their numbers? They're not just not wired that way. What would you say to that person?

Well, I would say honestly, if you want to have a big business, if you truly want to have success, you're going to have to learn your math. You're going to have to incorporate math into your world, right? So just accept it. If you don't want to grow or build a big business, that's totally cool too. But then you're operating like a realtor and I'm going to encourage you to operate like a business person. Business people know their numbers. So how do you go about doing it? Well, number one, I think you use the old I, we, they strategy. First, you're going to start tracking. If you're in production, you got to track your own numbers. How many dials are you making? How many of those dials are you contacting, connecting with, right? And of those connections, how many are you adding into the database? And from there, how many appointments are you creating? And then how many of those appointments are you actually going on? I mean, you know the routine, David, the conversations that are being had there. Start tracking them for yourself start figuring out what your percentages are and use that as a baseline. Provided you're running a team or you have other agents around you, use your numbers as the baseline. Now go at that detail to the agents on your team or in your world and compare and contrast. You might find somebody that's making all of the dials in the world but isn't converting to, say, an add to the database. Well, what's going on there? Based on that information, I know, okay, I think we have a skill issue. And that skill is in converting this individual to a database ad. Or if I'm calling people in the database and I'm not sending any appointments, that's another skill issue. Now there's an opportunity to work on a script around how to take those people in your database and get them to a face-to-face appointment. So I guess going back, David, how would you start? It starts with making a commitment to running a business or being a business person versus being a real estate agent. I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. I certainly don't mean to offend anybody. But it's just a decision you have to make. Yeah, we sell houses. I mean, there's not a business book out there that all of us, you know, read or study that doesn't say, hey, you could grow a big business and not know your numbers. I mean, there's just— it doesn't exist. Someone shows up and says, hey Brian, I got you, here's a book that says you don't have to know your numbers and you could still be awesome and make a ton of money. Until that day comes, I'm going to say it probably doesn't exist or it doesn't happen. Yeah, knowing your numbers and knowing your conversions and things like that, knowing your P&L and operating as a business person It just leads to greater success. And so I think it's just a commitment you gotta make.

Yeah. I mean, I can go on all day with this conversation. I wanna shift gears a little bit. I know you are also doing some stuff with Gary Keller, the KW technology team, and Jason. Talk to us about that. What's going on with tech and what are you doing with those guys?

So I have been working with KWRI and Gary and Josh on Command for some time now. But I'll tell you, David, I was late to that party. I think I've said it with a mic in my hand a handful of times. I was not adverse. I certainly would never bet against Gary, and I'm certainly rooting for the technology success, but I just didn't want to beta test anything and share my thoughts, but maybe at a distance. And in hindsight, that was a real mistake. I wish I would have gotten in earlier. And so, once I realized that I thought I had made a mistake and that I should have been more engaged and more involved, I made a couple calls and said, guys, I want to go the opposite way. Now I want to go, I'll show up in Austin. You tell me what you need me to do. I'm in it. I want to learn it. I'm going to study it. And so I just really started learning more about Command. And like I said, studying and making trips to Austin. And at some point, Keller Williams wanted to bring its team leaders and its operating principals into Austin and show them what was going on within Command so they could be knowledgeable and intelligent about the product. That's frankly changing the game for KW. And Gary and Josh had asked me and my coaching group, Metrix, to teach and train around it. Of course, I said yes. And then that put me on a journey to learn even more about command so I can be intelligent in front of a room. And I just poured into it, man, because I really, you know, I'm a KW guy and I am a loyalist and I'm not going anywhere. I was either going to be part of the solution and play a role or I was just going to sit on the sidelines and accept that. And I was unwilling to accept just the sideline role. Like I was, I was unwilling to accept that this industry is changing and I'm not going to be out in front of it or doing all I can to shape it. That's what happened. I mean, kind of a long-winded story, but I just, I called Gary and said, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. I want to be in, I want to be more on top of this. Give me this project. I'll run with it.

What was the mistake? Was this like not using the technology, not thinking it was important? I mean, this is great for our listeners, like, cause the reality is we We have a tremendous opportunity, tremendous technology platform, and I don't know, you know the numbers better than me, but when I was a TL, we probably had, it's embarrassing to say, but maybe 10% of the agents were using it. I am hoping it's better now, but, you know, there's a lot of people that are saying, well, once it's 100% or once it gets here, or is that the mistake you're talking about?

For me, yeah, I was just kind of sitting there letting it come to me as opposed to me being active with it. I know that the tool— I know that Command and all that KW is rolling out gets smarter as we use it at a higher level. I was more or less allowing my future to be dictated by those around me, which isn't a terrible thing. We've got a great family at KW, but I wasn't being proactive. Instead, I was being reactive. So I'm looking at Command and I'm like, man, I think that I've got some insights here. I think that I've run a pretty big business. I think that I I have 100,000+ people in my database and probably have some knowledge. I mean, I've worked extensively with the biggest CRMs out there, both in using them and coaching to them. And so I think I have some unique insight as to database management, CRM operation. I mean, I've prided myself as a database guy. And so I just said, you know what, I could be contributing here with nothing expected in return. I just decided I had to get active. Hmm. And I did that, but I have a tendency, like many of your listeners, And I don't just usually put my toe in the water. It's kind of like I'm jumping all in. Sure, that's what happened. And so just in learning it and embracing it and incorporating it into my business— all, David, I'll be the first one to say, man, I— it's not like I'm 100% on Command right now. We're only focusing exclusively on our SOI right now. And don't get me wrong, I'm going to be into Command 100% in the future, but at this very moment in time, big team, multi-location, I needed to work at a very high level. And the transition, as anybody knows— I'm sure you know— transitioning from a CRM or a database tool to another stuff is one of the biggest headaches, biggest undertakings. I've got to map out— it's going to take me a year to transfer. And so I've just got to be prepared to pull the trigger. I'm on the sideline at this moment about that, but I'm slowly integrating. And by the way, KW doesn't need Brian Gubernick over tomorrow. We know that it's going to be the answer of the future, Josh believes this is the long game, is the journey, it's a marathon. He doesn't need us all over tomorrow. I mean, it's crazy when you say it, but you get 4,000 users in Command, just the CRM portion becomes the largest CRM in the real estate industry. We have well over 4,000. The point is that when I started teaching that class I was talking about, David, after the very first time I taught it, Josh said, how do you think it went? Josh, it was terrible. It was— I mean, you, you saw the class, it got much better over time. And I'm like, it was terrible. I felt like nothing worked. I couldn't explain anything properly. Every time we ran something in there, the timing wheel would spin. I'm like, it was terrible. And he just was laughing at me. I go, Josh, what's so funny? He goes, you sales guys, you guys just don't get it. We don't need to sell this. This is a marathon. Every week this thing's going to get better. We'll be just fine. Just stay the course. Mm-hmm. Like, I think about that all the time because I felt the need to stand up in front of the room and sell Command. It'll sell itself over the course of time. Again, we have 170,000 agents. We'll get there.

Masters, we are gonna get you right back to the show. Listen, this really helps to keep this podcast going, so please, our sponsors Vulcan 7 7.com for all the data you need for making phone calls. A dialer built in, a CRM built in, a calendar system. If you need data for expireds, for sale by owners, you want to pull your sphere of influence, check out Vulcan 7 for 2 weeks for only $49. Check out the service. If you love it, keep with it. Vulcan7.com/path2mastery. Listen, free books, okay? Who doesn't love a free book? If you love podcasts, you're gonna love Audible. It's audiobooks. As a matter of fact, I would get yourself a copy of Secrets of the Millionaire Mind right now. Just go to davidsfreebook.com. Yup, they're gonna ask you to sign up, but here's what you do. You sign up and then you just set a reminder in your calendar. So if you don't wanna stick with Audible, I don't know why you wouldn't, but if you don't want to, then just cancel before your card is ever charged. Charge. Okay, so you get again a free audiobook from Audible, davidsfreebook.com. And finally, putting together an amazing program webinar series on sales call reluctance, which starts October 3rd. Just go to listnow.us to check it out. Anything you need to know about limiting beliefs, about call reluctance, fear of rejection, fear of success, Success. We're covering them all, my friends. October 3rd, check it out. ListNow.us. You rock. I do log in every day. I do my sphere of influence in there. You became proactive. So let's say that, you know, the people that are listening to this that don't have 100,000 people in a database and they don't have that connection to Gary Keller where they can, you know, start teaching it. What does being proactive look like for them?

Well, number one, I think you start using it in some capacity. I think everybody should start by getting their SOI in there. Here's why I say that, because I think that your SOI is most forgiving and is most interactive with you, meaning that when you put your SOI in there and you set them up on, let's just say, a neighborhood page, in the event that neighborhood page is not— first call everybody in my SOI, and I would say Hey, it's Brian. Hey, just reaching out, man. My company, Keller Williams, we just launched a brand new technology. We're really, really proud, and we've got this new neighborhood functionality that I'd like to set you up with, and I'd love to get your feedback. I love your input. Let me know what you think about this. Now, as crazy as this may sound, David, I wouldn't say this necessarily from stage, but as crazy as this sounds, I almost want it to not work. Well, my SOI, do they call me and say, Brian, this thing's not working, what's going on? Now I have another opportunity for conversation. Yeah. Oh, well, you know, like I told you, it's a beta and we're rolling it out. What didn't work for you? What did you see? What would you like to see more of? It gets to create conversation. Ultimately, I know it's going to be flawless. It may not be there today, but it's going to be there. Gary and Josh just far too committed to it. I don't want to go off on a total tangent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just take my word for it, these guys are crazy about this. Like, they are living, breathing everything Command. I haven't seen Gary this engaged in the 12 years I've been in, and he's been— he's always been engaged, but this is his world. This is his legacy.

Yeah, no doubt.

And so get your SOI in and start interacting with the neighborhoods. I would say that's number one. Number two, there's just so many social media outlets, particularly Facebook, set up for KW Command. I would say get active in there. Get active in learning and reading because everybody's kind of committed to the cause. So be active there, be active in asking questions, be active in poking holes and finding flaws or issues. Because I know, and I've seen it personally, every time there's an issue, everybody at KW like drops what they're doing and works on it. Every technologist at KW, they are so committed to making this product everything it's supposed to be. I mean, they, they want this feedback. And so, you can be proactive and not have to fly to Austin to do it.

Well, I agree. And I think that's a great piece of advice for everybody. I've done that. My whole SOI is in there. I'm setting people up on the snapshots. Same thing, calling them. And you know, sometimes you just got to say, listen, I know this is the beta. It's not always perfect. What are your thoughts? What can we do better? You know what I mean? And get them engaged in the process too. And I think that's going to be the key. Are you still teaching it? I mean, are you still with these guys teaching it?

We ran 8 different classes in Austin. So for the OPs and for the team leaders.

Yeah, I was at one of those.

Right. So that was a pretty hefty, uh, 2-month run for me. I should have bought a place in Austin because I spent a lot of time there. My wife was glad that that tour was over. That's where my kids, at least I think they were. And then there'll probably be some more teaching in classes around Command coming up here. Obviously we had Mega Camp and that's a massive undertaking. And so we kind of froze some of the teaching and training that I'm involved in. I'll probably be doing more Connect Live stuff. And then not to pivot entirely, David, because I know this was not the topic of conversation, but I'm pretty deeply involved with Keller Offers and that program, that training, actually a lot of that training I'll be helping with.

Talk to us about Keller Offers for the people that don't know what that is.

So Keller Offers is Gary's answer to the iBuyer. Now mind you, again, I'm in Phoenix, and as I mentioned earlier in this conversation, Phoenix has the luxury of being on the forefront of a number of industry-related issues or topics. iBuyer, instant buyer, being one. So in Phoenix, we have Open Door, Offerpad, Zillow. They're our top 3 iBuyers. And as many on this podcast know, these iBuyers are making cash offers to buy your home with the thing that's most appealing to the consumer being convenience, right? So they'll accept less money for their property because of the convenience of not having to show it, negotiate it, do all of that. Well, Gary felt the need to respond, reluctantly got in the iBuyer space and said, if we're going to keep the agent as the center of the transaction and as the fiduciary for the consumer, We've got to launch our own iBuyer company that positions the agent differently than our competition. And so Keller Offers was born. Now, what was interesting was that in the course of developing Keller Offers, Gary's partner in that, Mitch— Mitch runs Keller Capital— he and Gary had concluded that in order to scale at the rate we needed to scale, the dollars— Gary could go find those dollars, as many can guess— but the logistics The scaling of that company in order to accomplish what it needed to accomplish was massive, is massive. Hence a partnership or an affiliation that was formed with Offerpad. Offerpad's the number 3 in terms of volume of transaction, iBuyer number 2 or 3, depending on the city you're in, iBuyer in the space today. And so Keller Offers now has forged a relationship with Offerpad, whereas Offerpad, the backend buyer of the property. Keller Offers is the intermediary and partner in that transaction. And it is kind of a conduit between the agent, the Keller Williams agent, and the end buyer Offerpad.

Interesting. That's not around here yet. So I'm guessing it's coming though.

It's not yet, but I'll tell you Offerpad specifically has intentions to be in over 2,000 markets. Zillow specifically has said, we want to purchase, acquire 60,000 homes a year. Open Door, multi-billion-dollar company. So these guys are going everywhere. Yeah, you don't think they're coming to your market? I got to tell you, they're already in your market, right? They're just not called iBuyers. They're called We Buy Ugly Homes, or they're called the cash investor down the road. They're just doing it at a much, much bigger scale. And so for those that don't have it or don't believe that the big boys are going to be in their city, you know what, you may be right, But I would encourage you to become your own iBuyer.

Yeah, no doubt, David.

I think that for, you know, your market or other markets, like people want convenience and they want options. So I think all of us should be going into listing presentations and saying something to the effect of, okay, I can make you a cash offer on your property. It'll close in 72 hours. Now your $300,000 property, cash offer is going to be $180,000. Now recognize 99.9% of people don't buy that. However, I just want you to know that that convenience is available to you, and I'll close on it in 72 hours. Then I have your 30-day cash offer. That offer is going to be— and take whatever number you want to take. Hmm. And for this, you don't have to show it, you don't have to deal with it. Someone will buy it, cash offer, here it is. And then you have your retail option, and here's what that looks like. Now, break script. 98% of people end up going retail. In today's environment where people are given this convenience and given options, I think we have to honor it when we're in the living room.

Yeah.

I mean, I'll tell you this, David, it doesn't matter who you are. If you had a $300,000 property and somebody was willing to sell it for $180,000, I don't care who you are agent-wise, you'll find the money for that. Finding money for great real estate deals is not challenging. It's actually finding the deal that's challenging. Yeah. Again, like I said, most people would never go for that, and that's great. But I think that we should become the provider for these options, just like Opendoor and Offerpad and Zillow and these guys are doing in the major metropolitan areas. Yeah, there are options available and you should become the source of that, the conduit to it, as opposed to avoiding it because they're looking at it.

I think we have to, or that's, you know, the— that's the staying relevant part. If we don't, then they're gonna get accustomed to, you know, Zillow. I mean, the reality is if you offer that to 100 people I don't know what, 90, 95 are going to probably go retail. So what's Zillow going to do is going to refer it to one of their agents and then just make the money that way.

Right. Well, I mean, that's one reason why Zillow even formed its iBuyer, its instant buyer division, right? Like it formed it because recognized that while it will acquire properties and while it will figure out a way to monetize those transactions, be it in the resale of the property or all the other ancillaries that come off of the sale. Its real opportunity very well may be in the lead creation on the seller side of the business.

Sure.

Right. So to your point, David, 98 of those people out of the 100, they just become seller leads. And now what does Zillow do? Well, they do what they do best. They turn around and sell it to us. Zillow is interesting because, right, you know, real quick, I mean, recognize Zillow's buyer advertising, it plateaued recently for the first time ever. So here you are, a public company that doesn't make any money, where red is the new black, right? Where their revenue, which is what pretty much drives everything for a company of that nature, really stops growing at the rate it was growing once before. That's a real problem when your buyer advertising starts to plateau. So they strategize and they come up with this other way to generate seller leads, these seller opportunities, and now they're advertising, you know, revenue starts growing again. I mean, it's— it was a pretty smart play on their part It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

Yeah, no doubt. Well, the industry is changing and I think we all have to change. And that's what we started this conversation talking about. I mean, you were doing short sales. You saw that kind of coming to an end. You had to make some shifts in your business and some changes. And, and I think that's what all of us need to start looking at right now. If you're in the real estate industry, things are going to be different and that's the reality. So what are you going to do different? Based on that question, I know we're coming to the end of this conversation. You get to travel around, you see a lot of agents, you teach in a lot of different areas and regions. And what are you seeing? Like, what are the agents feeling? What are your thoughts, like, real estate as a whole? What are you hearing out there?

You know, one thing that you just said, I think you nailed it in terms of the message I'm hearing out there on the streets all over the nation. Most everybody really feels that this industry is going to look quite a bit different in the next 12 to, call it, 24 months. How it's going to look different, I think everyone's got a different opinion, but everyone's saying different. Is the market going to shift a little bit? Is technology going to get even louder? Are there going to be consolidations? Are they going to be new technologies that pop up? I mean, it's— everyone really feels this pressure, or this sometimes anxiety for some, excitement or opportunity for others. Everybody just really senses or feels like something's happening, and it's not necessarily an economic shift. Like last time around when we had these feelings, if you will, it was purely based on the economics, the numbers. The real estate market is changing, and I think that most think there is going to be an economic shift, um, and we're probably at that pinnacle and it's going to change. But that's not what's driving a lot of this emotion as of late. I think what I'm seeing out there as I'm touring around and talking with the agents is this intrigue as to where the market the real estate industry as a whole is going to be in the next 12 to 24 months. That's what I'm seeing out there. But I still think for realtors, those listening to this podcast, I don't think it's easy. I don't think it's simple to necessarily counterpunch this. But I do think the answer is something I know you preach quite a bit, David. We've got to be controlling our story and we've got to be building a moat around our relationships. Like, if you're not telling your story, Somebody else is telling it for you. And everybody in your database right now, especially your SOI, they're on your website and they're probably on 7 others. So don't take those relationships for granted. I think now more than ever, we've got to be out belly to belly in front of people telling our story and becoming the economist of choice, because I just think we're under siege, right? Like, I think you look at Zillow, you look at these iBuyers, you look at some of these things we talked about today, These guys are after our relationships. They're after our commission dollars. And so I think the single greatest thing we could do is go back to the basics, which is get in front of people. Yeah, the more intimate the interaction, the higher the rate of success, the more face-to-face conversations we can have. And now, getting in front of people and BSing isn't necessarily creating value. I'm saying get in front of them and display value.

Sure.

Show why you're worth the commission dollars that you're worth. Right now, it's more important than it's ever been.

It's interesting too, because I stepped out of the TL role about 2 months ago and my team had kind of fallen apart. So, now I'm back in the trenches a bit and I'm basically calling the people I know. And I wouldn't say it's easy, but like I talked to my buddy Scott, first time I call him, "Oh my God, I didn't realize you were back. My cousin's looking to sell his house." Go over, meet with his cousin, listing and selling, right? I call another guy I know, he's, "Oh my God, I'm at the beach right now, but I got a friend." 'Family, you want to let me know what it's worth?' And these are people I haven't— I know them, I haven't been in touch with them in a couple years. I was— we moved to Connecticut for a couple years, right? I had someone else running my business. It kind of— it all fell apart. But now I'm back, and I started calling expireds and FSBOs, which I've always been good at. But that's another whole podcast episode. That has certainly changed. But it's just the people I know, and so many things now in a short amount of time, have come to fruition just by being in touch with those people I know. And not sending emails and not sending texts, but calling them and just saying, "Hey, what's up? Geez, I haven't talked to you in ages." Yeah. Most of them didn't even know I left, to be honest with you. It's funny.

Yep, I'm with you.

So listen, we were all over the place today. I appreciate that. I love it. I can't wait to go back and listen and get some nuggets from this. But what would you say is the biggest thing you want everybody to take from this episode today? What would you even name this episode?

We were all over the place. You know what? I don't have a clue what I'd call this because we were all over the place.

Everything Real Estate.

I do think it has to be something with change though, and adapting to change. I think you had said that, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes ago. You just mentioned this change that I've experienced throughout my career. And I guess I never really thought about it until you said it that way. I think adapting to change is certainly something we all need to do in order to flourish in this business. And I would say in order to do that, I think you just got to become a student of the game. Like, if you're going to change your model or adapt to this different market or compete with technology, I would ask you, David, I would ask everyone listening, what are you studying? What are you reading? Who are you hanging out with? You know, what are you listening to? I think individuals listening to this podcast are probably ahead of the curve in that they're proactively listening to this and other episodes. I would say your growth, your education base, But going back to just adapting to change, I think anytime it's worked well for me personally, it's because I really, really kind of dove into learning and educating and studying and figuring out who I should be spending time with and listening to and modeling and all of that. So you got to go all in though in this business if you're going to really have success. You're going to have to become a business person and not just a traditional agent and commit to it because There is so much opportunity in this industry. Even still, with all the threat and pressure we may have, there is just so much opportunity, and you can go grab your unfair share. I mean, it's just out there for the taking.

I love it. Yeah, it's so true. There's so much opportunity coming, and believe it or not, the simplicity right now of so much opportunity, just being able to go back and talk to the people that, that you know, that's right, is so much gold. Listen, you have a company, Metrix.

That's right.

Talk to us, give us a, you know, a minute on that. What's that all about? And then how do people get in touch with you if they're interested in that or referrals or anything?

So I have been spending most of my time these days in coaching and training. Our company is Metrix, M-E-T-R-I-X. And we are working with KW on a lot of different projects and things of that nature. We are coaching and training, but I would say our core product, which is called implementation, It is 1-to-1, 30 minutes, but it's a 20-week program. You probably already figured this out if you know me or listening to me today. I'm very tactics and strategy driven. I'm very numbers-based. And so we spend 20 weeks building out the models and systems for a successful real estate team. So we talk around database management, we talk around ROI, we talk around performance management and accountability, we talk around recruiting and retention, but it's very, very, very specific actionable items and not theory or mindset-based presentation or coaching. Not that there's anything wrong with it, it's just not our style. And so you can email me if you'd like, brian@metrics-training.com. It's M-E-T-R-I-X, brian@metrics-training.com. More than happy to talk with any of your listeners, David, around some of the things we do that I'm just really proud of and I'm having an awful lot of fun with.

All right, man. Well, hey, just want to thank you. I appreciate it. Great stuff. I, like I said, I look forward to going back and listening to it. And, and I just want to thank you for your time, man. It was, it was phenomenal, buddy.

Thank you so much. And again, thanks for being patient with me, persistent. I love what you're doing for the industry, and you've always been fantastic for it. And you're just a great guy, man. So I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

Thanks, brother. You too. You have a great rest of your day, man.

You too.

Masters, I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for listening to this episode. You know, I get it, you're ready to move on. And real quick, before you do, a couple opportunities for you. First off, I just want to— if you could give me a review, it helps tremendously for rankings as well as helping us get better guests, everything. It's just awesome. So if you could, wherever you listen to podcasts, if you're on iTunes, that's amazing. If you're using Android, wherever you listen, be phenomenal. I just really say I appreciate that. I just launched a brand new Facebook group. It's really exciting to get this thing going. The goal is every day bring inspirational stuff, videos, stuff that's not going to be accessible to everybody, certain trainings, opportunities, webinars, everything. So it's a free group, guys. Just go to Path to Mastery, uh, search Path to Mastery on Facebook. You'll find a group, request access, and I will get you in right away. I I promise you. And books, I, I, gosh, I talk about free books all the time. You, you probably already heard me talk about free books a million times, and I know everybody loves a free book. So just go to davidsfreebook.com on Audible, right? Go to David's Free Book, get yourself a copy of any of the authors that we've interviewed. I mean, why not get a free book? Uh, it's free. It's amazing. Uh, davidsfreebook.com. And again, I just want to say thanks. And as you know, health and nutrition is always been number one for me. Just completed my first Ironman, guys. Lake Placid 70.3 in the books. Uh, goal was break 7 hours, did it 6:49. Next year I'm breaking 6 hours guaranteed. I'm happy I did my first one. I cruised through, I followed my coach's plan and cruised through, and next year I'm going all in. Anyway, the reason I'm sharing that is because I, I'm on Advocare products. I've been taking them for a long time. Tremendous health and nutrition products. If you're interested in learning about the products, go to livelongersmarter.com. LiveLongerSmarter.com. You can check out the products for energy, protein, health, nutrition, vitamins— anything you need is there, my friends. Thank you, uh, and then please give us a review. You absolutely rock, and I look forward to connecting with you on the next episode. If you need anything from me, shoot me an email, david@live at davidihill.com, or if you like, call me, 774-314-1107.

Thank you.

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