107: Legal Approaches to Toxic Mold w/ attorney Kristina Baehr

Hello again, everyone, and welcome to today's show. If you're one of the 130 million people that are dealing with Sirs Lyme disease, autoimmune disease, or other conditions that are impacted by mold on a daily basis, and you need to learn how to eliminate that exposure, then you're in the right place. My name is Brian Carr, and you're listening to Mold Finders Radio.

Hello.

Hi, Brian. So glad to be here.

I know. What's going on.

You know, just doing a little legal work. What do you have to.

Honestly, pacing around my bedroom.

That's how I do these things. I was having. I was having connection issues the last couple times. So now I literally just pace back and forth as close as I can to the. To the router, to Hope.

There you go. Perfect.

That it doesn't happen.

Cool.

Well, well, this is my first time on Clubhouse, so you're teaching me new tricks.

Are you having the best time of your life in the last 30 seconds?

Best time of my whole life. I love it. I can't wait to meet Mary and David. Melinda, Val, Hillary, Heather. Hi, everyone.

I know so many people. This is what's kind of cool, because you talk about stuff. So, like, before I was doing podcasts, I would still pace around my room, but I would just be, like, this weird loner guy pacing around and talking to himself. And now.

You get to interact with people. It makes me feel less like a loser. It's exciting. Just kidding. Anyways, so excited to chat with you today.

We always get so many questions about kind of the legal aspect of what's going on, so this is going to be a really cool piece, but before we jump into that, maybe we should, like, tell everyone who you are. You want to give a quick little hey, this is who I am.

Yes. I am a lawyer, and I represent sick families against the people who made them sick.

Yeah, that's pretty clear and straightforward. So that's.

And. And you're in Texas, am I right?

I'm in Austin, Texas, yes. And my own family got sick from toxic exposure. And at the time, I was working for the U.S. attorney's office doing defensive personal injury work, and I loved it. I loved representing the United States, but I started building my own case for my own family, and I just recognized a need in this field, and so I ultimately left the Department of Justice to build the personal injury firm that I wanted for my own family.

Yeah, it's amazing. You know, it's so funny. A lot of, like, the best people that get into this sort of world are people that had something happen to them. They're like, wait, holy crap, this is, like, a thing. This is what I need to be doing. Right?

It's a very sad. And I know you have this, too. It's a very sad superpower, but it's a superpower nonetheless, you know? And I represent all these people who feel understood by me because I've been there too.

Yeah, absolutely.

So you're in. So you have your practice. You're in Texas. How does it work? Just big picture. If somebody from, I don't know, Florida or something wants to talk to you, like, how does. How does that work with you?

So they call my. They call my office. We have a fabulous intake director. Her name's Casey. Almost everyone who works with me is a survivor of toxic exposure or related in some way to this mission. And so she will talk to them and get their story and usually help them figure out how to build their own case a little bit. Because before you bring your case to a lawyer, you should make sure it's in order. You should have a timeline of events. You should have the key lab testing together.

You need to have clear liability. And she'll work with them a little bit. And then if they're in a state that's not Texas, I have partners now in about half the states, so I'm still missing a lot of states, and I'm working on it, but we'll send them directly to our partner in Florida. Our partner in Florida is amazing. His name's Bob McKee, and he's my own lawyer. He's been doing this for 30 years, and he's fabulous. He's one of the best there is. So I hope they're calling from Florida, but I have great partners in North Carolina, California, Arizona, and. And on and on. So it's. It's. And. And more every day.

Amazing. I know. Last time we talked there, it wasn't even that many, so, yeah, you're definitely doing some stuff. You're definitely getting it together.

Well, I just want. I want every. I want every. I want to raise up an army of lawyers, right? I want every single person who has this issue have an opportunity to talk to a lawyer. They may not take their case. They may not have a case, but they should have their story heard by counsel. And I just want. I want that to be true for every survivor in the country. So I'm on a mission.

Love it, love it, love it. Okay, so I've been getting. I always get. But even more recently, for some reason, all Kinds of questions, legal sort of leaning about renters and different things are going on.

Yeah.

So I kind of figured the way that we can frame flow this today is to do just like a general. And you almost sort of set it up a second ago, so maybe we run with that. Like, how do you sort of pre set yourself up in order to even have a leg to stand on when you're talking? Right. So yeah, I forget exactly the phrasing that you use, but basically getting your, your stuff in line before you actually talk to the attorney. Right. So maybe we do that as like sort of a, this is kind of baseline steps that you need to do if you're thinking about it. And then I was thinking after that we could maybe take some questions and just everyone.

And you'll say it, I'm sure, because you're the attorney, but like, you're not giving legal advice to people.

Right, Right.

Yeah, you say what you need to say. But I just want to make sure.

That I'm not giving legal advice. That's right. And you know, for people listening, I can address particular questions, but I, I, I'm not giving any one person legal advice. I'm not even licensed in your state. I'm not your lawyer. All of that. Okay, but how do you build a case?

Yep. Let's, let's.

The first thing you need is you, Brian. That is the first thing you need.

Are you there? Someone just dialed into my phone. Okay. You need to hire an independent certified inspector to come and test your house or your apartment. I think a lot of people are renting or in big apartment buildings and they ask their landlord to hire an inspector. That is a terrible idea. Do not do that, because you want an independent party who's not employed by.

The big apartment building or complexes, and you want them to come and do a few things. And you can, Brian, you can chime in here because you'll know, but I want to, I don't want to interrupt.

I want to hear where you're at, and then I'll tell you what we've seen or whatever.

I want to see, I want to see air test results.

From the contaminated area. If you take an air sample in the middle of the room, it's likely to be clean. But if you take it close to where the contamination is, it's likely to show some of the contamination. So I want to see an air sample compared to the outside. That is kind of the gold standard. I also want to see mycotoxin results because one of the things that's really interesting that we can do now is you can show not just the mold exposure, but, you know, mold releases mycotoxins. And now you can test for the mycotoxins, and then you can test your own body for mycotoxins, and you can show the correlation between the mycotoxins in the environment and the mycotoxins in your body. So I like an air sample. I like a mycotoxin test. And then I want to test of the belongings, because if you're sick because of your exposure, it's very likely you're going to get rid of some, if not all, of your belongings. But some of the courts have said that we don't know that the stuff is contaminated unless we test it. And so we might as well do one more test of the belongings in a dust sample to make sure that. That they're contaminated, too, so that we can then claim the loss of the belongings. And then I like. I like a final dust sample as well that will pick up some molds that might not be found in the air. What do you think? Did I pass the test? Brian, It's.

You literally explained our entire framework of how we build a case.

Okay.

So first off, I'm glad that I've been telling people, do it the right way.

Okay, good.

But. But yeah, so we had this framework that we call cause effect. Effect.

Cause is the first thing you said. So you're saying an error test specifically from contaminated. I. The way that I explain that is you want a test that identifies where the source is. You want to know that the source is in the house.

Yeah, Right.

That way you can't have the argument where someone comes is like, oh, they just brought that in from outside. Molds everywhere, blah, blah, blah. You're like, no, no, no.

Right.

It's like right here in this wall. Here's the test from this.

Right, exactly.

And from my point of view, and you tell me if I'm wrong. Doesn't need to be an error test. Could be a swab test, too. Right. It could be something on the surface. Right. Just something showing that there's a problem there or.

No, I like both.

Okay, cool. And then when we do them, word tip it, like, so if we're talking like air sample at source, usually source is behind a wall or something. So we're doing a cavity in the wall, so we're actually not in ambient airspace. We're like, in the wall. That's cool.

I don't love that.

Okay.

It's okay. I mean, I think it's good. It's good if you're trying to find the source. But the. And we know this is happening, right, because of. Of in the. In the cases that we're involved in, the other side will say, well, that's that. They literally will say. And Brian, you will. You will show them why they're wrong. But they'll say, excuse me, sir, that mold is in the wall cavity, and every wall has some sort of mold. And that's what the wall is for. The wall protects you from the mold.

Right.

I mean, they have PhDs who say that.

No, I get that. And that's always the first question, like if I'm ever doing a depo or something that comes up. We kind of come armed with research studies that just debunk that, like, pretty quickly. But the reason that I like to do it that way, just personally, is because, let's say we think that there's a problem in a wall. Even if you test right next to the wall, you're further away from the source. The odds that that air sample are going to show a problem are much lower than it would be if you were in the wall.

That's true.

And then the way that I look at it. And so again, tell me your thoughts. But, like, if you're doing sampling and testing, you know, once that stuff is done, it's like, done. It's there, right? You're. Now you're. You're kind of showing lab results. You have a lab result that shows a sample, and if the sample doesn't show that there's really a problem, then it could almost hurt your case in a way. Is that true or is that not true?

I think that's. I think that's true. I think that's true. But the best cases are going to be the ones where this is a clear problem and it's in the air and, you know, got it.

This.

This place is uninhabitable. And so that's. That's the net. You know, how do you build the case? So, so can I. Can I get back to the next few days? Okay.

Many people call us and they are living in a house that they say is killing them. And I believe that because a lot of people can't and can't afford to leave. Unfortunately, we cannot represent anybody who is not able or willing to leave the house that is killing them. Because I'm taking cases where these places, I say that they are uninhabitable. So if they are uninhabitable, I cannot make that argument. If someone is inhabiting the house that is very controversial. It's hard. I. I hate saying it out loud because I know that a lot of people cannot afford to leave, but those are also people who probably will not be able to bring a case.

So you're saying that at the time that it's happening, that they need to have already left? Is that what you're saying?

No, they just have to be willing to leave.

Okay. Okay.

They have to be willing to leave. And maybe the house can be remediated.

But they have to be willing to leave while it's remediated because we can't claim that this place is uninhabitable if you're in the house. Right.

And also, I believe that toxic mold is so bad that it can kill you. I think I would have died if I had stayed in my house. And so.

If I'm going to make that argument in court, I need to make it for a family who, who believes that and got out, you know, to save their own life.

100.

Is that extreme?

No, I don't think it is. I mean, listen, I mean, this is just my opinion, but, like, if someone's going to the length to where they're bringing a lawsuit, then they probably believe that, right?

Yeah.

And they probably don't want to be in their place because that's why they're going down the whole road in the first place. Right. I definitely. I. I've come across. And. And I imagine the reason you're bringing it up is because you've come across it too, where they actually do believe that. But it's like. It's almost like. Like someone might feel so overwhelmed by the prospect of, like, going somewhere else. And like, how do I do it and how do I find a place that doesn't have a problem? And this and that, they. They almost just like paralyze themselves and just stay there because they.

It's incapacitating. It's incapacitating. And also, mold affects your brain. Right. And so there's all this brain fog. And it's really hard to make decisions that are good for yourself and your family when you can't see straight or think straight. So I think that's a really big deal too. So are you willing to leave? The next question is, have you? Or are you willing to go to a mold literate doctor? Because if you're experiencing the symptoms of mold, you need to get medical treatment for that. And in my cases, I'm bringing personal injury cases. And so I need you to go and get medical treatment and be willing to get medical treatment over a period of time. Not like, I went, I got some binders and I'm good. Right, Right. I kind of represent the people who really need a detox for a while and need medical attention to rebuild their. Rebuild their systems because they've become very sick by their exposure.

Yeah.

So that's it. Mold literate doctor or willing to go to one. Have you left or are you willing to leave?

And then third party certified mold inspection. The last thing is, when did this happen?

If you found the mold 10 years ago and you've had symptoms ever since.

Your claim is likely barred by the statute of limitations.

Even if you didn't, even if you didn't tie it together, that your symptoms are related to the mold.

It usually, the statute of limitations usually begins to run from the time that you discovered the mold. So, you know, that's. I've had people call me who are. Have the most amazing case and did all the things right and went to all the doctors and, you know, lost all of their belongings and have really valuable, great cases. They're passionate about the issue. They really want to bring the claim. And, you know, they say, you ask, when did this happen? And they say, well, I've been on this journey for four years, and I'm just so sad by that because I wish I existed four years ago. Right. Like, they didn't have anybody to talk to until now.

Can we dive into that a little more? Because I feel like sometimes it's hard to, like you might be in a house and you have no idea that it's happening. Right. Like how, when they, when, when you say that it starts from the time that mold is discovered, Is that like when an inspector comes in and actually formalizes something or.

It depends on every find. It depends on every state.

In Texas. It's, it's. When did you know or when should you have known of the problem?

So I was in a house that was making me sick for eight or nine years.

But I had no reason to know that there was mold in my walls. I mean, I had no idea. And so I got a mycotoxin test.

And my scores were through the roof for my own body. And they said, go test your house. And I started reading about it and I thought, oh, my gosh, this is what's going on for my family. And this is what's going on for my daughter in particular. She was 8. And I was like, this is what's happening to her. Because she had become. Almost overnight, she had become just a Different kid. And so this mold inspector came. His name's Tim Taylor in Texas. And he saved my life. Came to my house, and he said, tell me about your family. And I told him about Maddie, because by that point, I had been reading, right? And I knew more. I had information. And so I told him about my daughter. And he took a test, he took a sample, and it would have been better if he did it in the walls, as you said, but he took a sample right by her wall, and he found stachybotrys. And he said, I often find it in the wall of the kid who's most affected. And we opened that wall, and it was full of stachybotrys. So we were home shut in during COVID and it was. She was coloring in her room for hours a day right next to this wall full of this extremely toxic substance that's so toxic that it's used.

As a chemical weapon. Right. I mean, it's just.

My daughter was coloring next to a chemical weapon.

I mean, that's basically what it is, right? These are chemicals that are meant to kill living things. We are living things. Right. We're just a lot bigger than microscopic molds. So it doesn't kill us right away, but, man, it's not good. And you're right. They develop these different types of microtoxins and chemical. Or I actually had someone.

They corrected me. I think I said biological before. Then they corrected me and said chemical warfare. I think that's what it was. Because they're like, technically, it's that whatever it is, is weapons that are being used in war. This is, like, what they're doing this story stuff for. So. Yeah, I. Well, first off, I'm so glad that you got all that figured out, which is amazing.

Real quick going back to the statute of limitation piece, because I just feel like this piece is pretty important for people to wrap their head around.

Yeah.

Two questions on this. Well, one question specifically, and I know every state's kind of different, probably, but what is the general length of time? What is that statute of limitations limitation?

It's usually two years.

Okay. All right. And then.

The other piece of, like, when you know or should have known, that seems pretty subjective to me. Right. Like, and I mean, there's so many people that even if you had, like, a big water event that happened, like, I don't feel like that you necessarily. General public. I mean, if you start looking at, like, EPA stuff and just, like, basic government stuff that comes out, it's never like, red flag. There's. There's mold there. Get it figured out. Right. Like, so I, I mean, I feel like that as long as the, as you're kind of being smart about how you're thinking through stuff and kind of communicating that you could have some leeway on, like, when you should have known, is that, does that make sense?

I think that's probably right. I, I, I usually count it as the date that you, that it was confirmed by a third party mold inspector.

Got it. Yeah. I think that.

When did you know you had Stachybotrys in your house? Well, the day I got those results back from Maddie's room.

Yep.

Right. And then, and then I didn't find the 8ft of tritomium in my kitchen until we started rebuilding the house. And, and then it's like, oh, there's this other source, and I couldn't have known about that either. So those are.

I think it's forgiving in a way. The standard can be forgiving in a way because often mold is hidden and sometimes it's even invisible. Right.

So it's either hidden behind a cabinet or something. Obviously, if you saw this huge swath of black mold, hopefully you would do something about it. Right.

If it was like that all the time, you wouldn't stay in the place and get super sick. Because, you see, Right. Problem is that most times you're right, it is hidden most of the time. So, yeah, it makes 100% sense. So I feel like that's a really good sort of primer for the basics. Right. So for everyone that's listening, if you're thinking about going down this road, you need to have tests in your house to validate there's a source issue in your house. You need to have tests in your house that show that it's actually circulating throughout your living spaces and that you are being exposed to that source. And you need to have something that's connecting what's in your house to your health. Like, those are the three big things, Right?

Did I say that right? Yeah, yeah, Perfect. And then the content thing is cool.

So, guys, for content testing, I mean, you're talking an ermi, you know, ermia, mycotoxin. And I've done this in places where you will do one throughout the actual structural settled surfaces in the house, but then do a specific separate one that's only contents, Right? And then that way when you go in and you're showing the data, you're like, yeah, this is what's settled in the house. This is what's getting resuspended into you know, the. The breathing zone through the human cloud effect. And then this is specifically what's on these items in these particular rooms. Right? So now there's no question that it's settling on stuff, right? And then I feel like the argument gets a lot easier if you're like, well, listen, I mean, it's here in this wall, and it's literally on our stuff. How did it get from the wall to our stuff if it didn't get out in the space? Right? Like, you just start, like, talking about it, like, logically in front of people.

And it, you know, it starts to kind of, like, line up a little bit. So that's. That's a really cool primer. So.

Maybe now, if you're cool with it, maybe if there's some questions or anything in here, we can start kind of popping those in. And I know every time I talk about, like, the framework, there's always specific, what about, you know, this or that or what if I have something going on here or whatever. So I feel like if people have questions, now's the time. If you want, you can raise your hands and we can do that. I've got.

Comments coming in. Oh, somebody asked, what's the time limitation? We covered that. All right, so someone else in here asked, how much does it cost to litigate on average? That was a question that came in here.

So that's a great question. I highly recommend going with a lawyer who's going to do it on contingency.

Okay?

It's. It's. And by contingency, what that means is you don't get. They don't get. The lawyer doesn't get paid unless you win. And the reason I like that is because it really aligns the interests with the lawyer and because litigation can become so expensive, and you're.

You're.

You're trying to move. You know, think about where you are when this is all happening, right? You're trying to move. You're trying to make good decisions for your family. You're trying to pay for all these medical expenses that are totally out of pocket. You're often missing work because you're super sick or you're caring for others who are super sick. You. You do not have the money to spend on a lawyer, and especially not on a lawyer who doesn't have the same incentive to win as you do.

And litigation can take a very, very long time. So when you're on your 18th month of paying legal bills, which is where I am for my hourly lawyer, it's exhausting. And it can lead you to want to settle for a price that is not fair.

And that's what the other side will do to you. They try to wear you down until the bitter end. And you want to have a lawyer who's going to stick with you until the bitter end.

And I think contingency lawyers are the way to go now. It's hard to find one. That's why I'm trying to raise up an army of lawyers in every state to do these cases. So if you just start, you know, calling personal injury lawyers in your state, it's very unlikely anyone is going to take your call.

And that is really too bad. So call my office. We'll try to find a lawyer for you. And. Or if you find a local lawyer who doesn't know about mold but is willing to learn, let us know, because Bob McKee and I now consult on cases around the country, and we can consult on that case to help that local lawyer develop their own expertise. And of course, in doing so, what we hope to do is to empower that lawyer to take more cases in the future. And they won't, you know, they won't need us. We just want as many lawyers as possible doing these cases in the country because, you know, Brian, it's an epidemic and people are getting so sick. And they're living in these houses that are brand new mostly. Right. The Dr. Horton stuff just came out. And these are. This is a class action against Dr. Horton for brand new houses that have mold problems already because they're so poorly constructed.

I know. I mean, I know someone else who went through that on a new construction. They ended up finally settling at some point, but it was. I mean, it was a disaster. You know what? The. The builder just kept building anyways and just sold it to someone else. Like, like, they actually still made money on their. On the house that they built, even though they went through a settlement. It's crazy. So, yeah, it's. It's a. It's a big thing. I love the. Just the ability that you guys are setting up to consult with other attorneys. I get so many questions. I'm so glad to have you as a resource now because people like, hey, do you know an attorney in, I don't know, Indiana or somewhere over here? Somewhere over here. Like, why don't you just call Christina?

She'll be able to help you navigate that. All right, so a lot of these questions are flying in now in the room chat, so let me kind of dive into some of these. Do most attorneys litigate for Damages or remediation or is that really separate or. I guess it depends what the goal of the client is. Right.

Do most litigate for damages or remediation? So.

I mean, you're always looking for damages. The damages might be to remediate your house though, if you want. You know, for example, in my own case, we spent an enormous amount of money trying to fix our house because we kept identifying more and more problems as we went along. Right. We found 8ft of tritomia in the kitchen, then we had to gut the whole kitchen and then the cost just mounted and mounted.

You can ask for in litigation, you ask for the costs of remediating.

Or the loss in value to the house. So because I had just this nightmare experience of trying to fix my house. And Brian, you may have a different view of this, but many clients that I have now just sell their house as is without trying to go down the road that we did of trying to fix it. Because you have. So, you know, sometimes it can cost so much to fix it and then.

It takes forever and then you're paying double living expenses while all of that's happening. And the road to recovery legally is long. And so you're not, you don't have legal recovery in the meantime. So a lot of people are just selling their houses and disclosing and selling. And then the damages becomes the difference between the sale per square foot in the neighborhood.

Without mold and with mold.

Oh, got it. That's interesting. That's cool. Yeah, I have people that, that just want to sell too. When I talk to them. And like, honestly, there are people who are into fight and there are people who just. It doesn't make sense for whatever reason. And it doesn't mean that you're doing it right or you're doing it wrong. It's just like, I mean, there are just times where you just sort of cut your losses in life and say, you know what? It's going to be healthier and just better for me and like my mental well being and my health and everything else just to sort of like just be done with this. I just can't do this anymore.

Right, Absolutely. Yeah.

For other people, they really need to go all the way like that for the same reason. Right. Sometimes they need to. They. They'll feel so wrong that the rest of their life they'll feel like they were. Something happened to them and they were this victim, which of course obviously you're. Something happened to them. Right. So it's not that that happened, but it's. It's Almost like the person needs to figure out, like, what they need to do, you know, and for everyone, that's different, right? And then you have the financial aspect, and sometimes people really, really need that piece of it to move forward. And sometimes other people don't. Sometimes other people be like, listen, I mean, I've. I've done this with. With landlords that I lived, you know, places I lived, every place I've lived in. Literally since I moved to California, I've had to leave because of a mobile problem. Every single one leak happens. They're not going to handle it right? And I'm like, I'm just out of here. I'm not going to push on this that hard. It's not worth it to me to do that. But I got an attorney to basically write a letter for me who I was consulting with. So they kind of did it for me, you know, and I didn't have to pay them for that, which was very nice. But I was offering them service to. So it was a trade. And I took the letter to the. You know, to the landlords, and that was enough for them just to let me out of my lease. Right. For me, that was the goal.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. I was still in lease for like six, seven months or something. I was like, yo, guys, here's the deal. Here's this letter. How do you want to do this? Right? They're like, why don't you just leave? I'm like, yeah, that's cool. I feel like that's the best thing. And then it was fine. Right. So it really just depends on who you are and kind of what your goals are and all of that stuff. But, yeah, I think the. Looking at what the damages are, I think they really are specific to the person. You mentioned that you kind of try these as personal injury cases. Is that what you said before?

Yes.

Got it. So, okay, let me look. So we've got a few more here that have popped in. So do attorneys ever file on behalf of people who document problems, fix the problems, and then they're trying to get insurance reimbursement?

So. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. But most homeowners insurance does not cover toxic mold.

And there's a long history.

There. There's a. There's a big reason for that. There was a case called. Well, there was a woman named Melinda Ballard who litigated a case out of Dripping Springs in Texas and won $38 million against her homeowner's insurance.

And that was, by the way, like, a totally fair verdict for what her family went through, they got extremely sick. She and her husband ultimately died. And I think most people believe that it's because of the. Related to the exposure and their experience with this house that was killing them. So after that, after, after her verdict, all the, all the insurance companies started excluding toxic mold. Well, excluding mold from their policies or they have some sort of rider that says that the maximum you can recover for mold is $5,000, which as you know, if you've lost your whole house, right. And everything in it, $5,000 is, is not, not a good result. So I don't personally go after insurance companies, but I know, you know, there might be other lawyers who do. They're also. You can also get a.

What do they call them, public adjuster who can negotiate with your insurance company on your behalf.

I feel like, I feel like you're just in my head. Like I like, like have you just been sitting next to me for the last however many years just listening to talk all the time? I mean, everything is. You're exactly saying what I've been saying for a while on a lot of this stuff. I feel like on the insurance piece, we did a whole separate. We've done a few episodes on insurance, but it's how you present the case to the insurance company. That's not really what the point of our, of our conversation here is today. So I think that's episode 52. For people that want to go back and find that Corey and I, yeah.

They should do that.

But we definitely talk about how you should be testing things, how things get presented, the insurance company getting a public adjuster to do it. All that stuff, everything that you just said, we break that down.

Okay, good.

It's in that episode.

Okay, so here's the next one. I have some thoughts on this too. So I'll ask you first and then I'll give my thoughts on this. The inspector I schedule was referred by attorney that was recommended to me. They said one, that mycotoxins aren't released by molds that are capable of producing them. So Emma tests aren't helpful. Emma's another version of PCR testing with mycotoxins from real time labs. So that's what they're referring to.

And pcrs is what ERMI is based on. So it's basically mycotoxin. So that's what they're talking about. And then number two, that ERMI tests don't hold up in court. What are your thoughts on that? So I'll let you.

Okay. So that first I can Talk about the mycotoxin tests. I mean, that's true that some molds do not always release mycotoxins. I think if your house is bad enough to warrant a legal case, it's released mycotoxins. And the ones that I've seen lately, I mean, including my own, are just like bright red, left to right. Every single mycotoxin there is, except for one.

I looked at three yesterday that were all exactly like that. So I find that to be very helpful because it helps me make the link from this is what was in the air making people very, very. Or in the environment making people very, very, very sick. And you can then look at the. And there's great research. Now we have great research on every one of these mycotoxins and what they do to your body. So you can look at ochratoxin A and you can say ochratoxin A actually passes through breast milk. And so it makes sense that this kid's results for ochratoxin A are double the level of the mother. And ochratoxin A has a neurological effect on your brain. So then Fusarium.

Has a hormonal effect. And so it makes sense that this mom, who was in this house had a lot of hormonal fluctuations. Right. And so we can look at every single mycotoxin and talk about the health effects. I find that extremely helpful for a case. Now, Arami tests. I do. I have heard that. That they don't hold up in court.

Like I said, I want a certified mold inspector to go to your house and run the test that Brian recommends.

I want pictures and lab results in this beautiful package with a bow.

Army tests are helpful. The ones that you can order on your own are helpful to identify the source or to see what your house is like, whatever. But I want those test results that we talked about earlier with a certified inspector. And Erme may be part of that. Maybe one of the. One of the tests. But I want a variety of tests.

Yeah. And I mean, you're 100% right. Like, Ermi is one of the things that we will 100% do. But you have to tie it with the other things we talked about earlier. You have to show that there's a source in the house. The ERMI helps achieve. Point two, which is the source in the house has moved into the space and is. And you're being exposed to it. That's what army does.

And you know the thing about. So before I get into that, the mycotoxin piece, let me ask you this because mycotoxins don't get picked up every time in a house. Like we have. We've been doing these for like 15 years and they don't always come up. Right. It doesn't mean that the house isn't a disaster. And it doesn't.

That's right.

Aren't being exposed to things.

Yeah.

So what happens in a case like that where you don't have the direct mycotoxin correlation, but there are research studies and things out there that show that the mycotoxins can't get produced inside of your body as part of its natural defense system when it gets in your biofilms and other things like that. So there are correlations you could kind of make where if you have the mold type in the house that can produce it and then you're seeing it in the body. There is a bit of. It's not like as clean of a bow, obviously, but there is like a correlation that you can make there. Like, is that something that you think about or that you do or is it. Or is it. You just kind of stay away from that. Just try to more focus on. On mold specifically. Or how do you look at that?

So that's a great point. And you know, the mycotoxin tests, the urine tests can be. It can be interesting because as I understand it, and I'm not a doctor, have I mentioned that I'm not giving legal advice? I'm also not giving medical advice, not being a doctor.

I'm not a doctor Card all the time.

But I understand that.

Some doctors don't find those mycotoxin tests helpful at all. Because unless your body's actually detoxing and it has the ability to detox, sometimes they're falsely negative.

And that doesn't mean that you're not sick from mold. So especially when you have all the symptoms of brain fog and short term memory loss and I don't know, your hair is falling out. Like there's so many different. Your frequent urination. Like there are these very common symptoms that you might have that are related to your exposure, certainly whether or not your urine test showed any mycotoxins. So I can see it's true that the mycotoxins are wonderful to have, but it can also complicate the case when it's not aligned. But I think that's when you explain it with the doctor like I just described.

Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. I just wanted to kind of put it out there that you're not like dead in the water. If you don't have a positive mycotoxin result.

No, you're really not. You're really not. And you don't even need it. You know, I don't think you need to do it necessarily, but I just find it helpful. I find it helpful.

Yeah. It's about building your war chest, Right. Like, the more you have to go to war with, the better. Right.

It's all cumulative. I'm representing these families in Hawaii now who drank contaminated water. And I think a lot of toxic exposure is the same. I mean, the stories that I'm hearing from them are so similar to my own experience. And there's a test that they're taking, many of them that is a Great Plains lab test that shows hydrocarbons in the body. And it's extremely helpful to have that test because then you can do sauna or other detox methods and take the test again and see if it's been reduced. Right. That is an extremely helpful tool. Or accelerated. That's true. Because sometimes it can go up and.

Then it spikes, because now you're popping it out. But you can make that correlation, too.

And if you can continue to detox and then get it down.

That'S huge. So, anyway, I find that test extremely helpful. Now, the Department of Health in Hawaii doesn't like that. Some people I know are taking these tests, right? And I don't make money off the test. I'm not in bed with Great Plains Lab. Like, this is just a test that I think is helpful for some people, maybe if it's prescribed by a doctor. But the Department of Health is so unhappy with it, Hawaii, that they just issued new guidance saying that chemical testing is not appropriate for toxic exposure. Not helpful, on and on. And it's like, well, on what planet is this not helpful? You know, this is like, yeah, this is a. This is a reasonable test that people are taking to see if they have toxins in their bodies that they can then detox. How is this not helpful? But it. Sometimes when things lead to liability, they're suddenly become unhelpful.

And that's a great transition into this whole. An inspector said that ERMI won't hold up. So that's why, like, the history on this is that Ermes were all fine and dandy until all of a sudden they started uncovering the fact that every house, everywhere has a mole problem, basically. And they're like, whoa, hold up. These tests are only for research purposes. You shouldn't be using them. All of a sudden it was like they. They invested in this nationwide stud study to do this, right? And they, they tested 1100 homes. It was sponsored by the government. The EPA is behind it. They developed an entire new technology of testing for mold at a DNA level for this. And then all of a sudden it shows that there's a whole lot of problems. And they're like, oh, well, you know what, guys, this is, you know, bad. This is just for research. You shouldn't be using this. And it's basically what happened. And so, so when that comes up, first off, you just need the right, you need the right person that understands how to pitch this and understands how to spin it. Here's the deal. Sure, the ermi. Let them roll with that. Yeah, you know what? You're right. The URMI is just for research purposes, but it's not the URMI that I'm actually concerned with. When they say ermi, you're pointing to the URMI score itself that it creates. That's not what I'm concerned. So if I'm asked this, I'm literally telling you what I'm. What I would be saying, right? Like, if I'm asked this, I'm like, it's not that it's itself, right? It's the underlying technology behind it, the PCR testing, right? It's DNA formatting. It's the gold standard. What's there. I don't care what the ERMI score says. I'm looking at how many molds are here, what are the levels of these molds, what are the correlation to those, and toxins and all that stuff, right? That's what I care about. So sure, the ERMI score, whatever. Let it be for research purposes. I don't care. I'm looking at this other stuff. And then once I said. Once I said this and I looked, I looked at the jury box after I said it and it was like, I just like blew their minds when I said this. And I was like. I was like, by the way, guys, is it every test you do for literally everything just for research purposes? Is it every blood test that you do for research purposes? Is it every. And I just listed off like five different types of tests that somebody would do. Isn't running on the treadmill when you turn 50 and getting your heart checked to make sure that it's not going to explode? Isn't that for research purposes that what everything that you ever do clinically is for? Of course it's for research purposes. So is every air sample that every other inspector takes in the entire world when they go into a House. It's for research purposes, yet we're okay looking at that and saying that's a problem. But for now, for some reason, we're not okay looking at this. And then it was just like, oh, damn. It's like mic drop. So.

That'S. That's my soapbox for.

I love that.

Ermian research purposes.

I love that.

Anyway, all right, they won the case.

I'm sure they won the case.

They did win that case. Yeah, they won that case.

So I have. I just have a couple minutes left. So maybe we'll do like one more here and then we can kind of wrap it up. So, yeah.

I have a few here. Let me try to look.

This is more of a doctor specific kind of test.

We moved out.

Okay, so here's. Here's one more. And this is just maybe if you have someone in that area. So somebody basically says they. They bought a house, moved in, got super sick, had two different companies test for mold. There was mold everywhere. They moved out, been out for six months. But they're having a hard time finding a lawyer. This kind of sounds like they're checking all the boxes. They're in Idaho. Do you have anyone in Idaho?

I don't have anyone in Idaho yet, but I can find someone in Idaho.

All right, so good. So here's what we'll do because a couple questions came up here. How do people contact you, your firm? How do they start the process?

So you go to well Law. I'm going to type this in.

Oh, yeah. I should have put this up in the thing at the top the whole time.

Go to well Law. And.

You type in a submission, and then our fabulous intake director, Casey, will call you.

And that's it. Justwell Law. That's the site.

Well Law. I mean, my firm is called Just well because I just want people to get well. I just want to get well. I just want my clients to get well. Just well. And so well Law is my.

And I said, oh, it's just well law. That's fine.

It is.

But it's not. It's not just well law. It is well, dot law.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

But. But yes, that's. That's. That's my mission. I just want, you know, everyone listening. I want you all to get well. And I want to get well. And I want to hold the builders.

And really these huge landlords accountable, and I want to teach them too, through this process about what mold really does to people. And so to me, litigation is so much more than money grabbing. It's really about teaching and about, I hope, recovery, financial recovery, but also physical recovery. Um, so anyway, I hope you all get well and thank you for having me.

Awesome. I'm. This is amazing. Thank you so much for. For coming on and talking through all this. This. You have been very needed for a very long time. And I have never, like, I knew some attorneys like in where I live just because I, you know, I've had clients or whatever, but, you know, you get people from all over the country asking and. I don't know. Right. So when we, when we talked the first time, however long ago it was, I was like, oh, this is. This is super cool. Right? To finally have somebody that we can refer people to. So that is awesome. So thank you so much for everything that you're doing and how you're working with people and trying to educate and everything. It's very in line with how we look at doing things on our end too. And it's just nice to have somebody else in the. In the circle that we can, you know, kind of help people, you know, refer to and kind of build that team that surrounds them.

I love it. Well, you know, you. I've told you this before, but I started maybe the reason you think what I'm saying is so similar to I've been in your head because I've been listening to you for a long time and I, you know, a lot of what I know is from you, so I, you know, I. For the listeners out there.

There are a group of people of thought leaders if, if we aspire to be the thought leaders who really care about you, and we really care about public health, and we want the world to be a better and safer place for our children. And we are working together. Every day we wake up, Brian and I and many others thinking how can we help more people? And I just want you to know that. That there may be times we fall short and we may, you know, I may lose some cases. I don't know. I haven't won one yet because I'm only four months into this endeavor. So I'm, you know, I'm going to. But I'm going to leave it all in the field because I want this world to be a better place for our children and a safer place for our children. And I believe that toxic exposure is making people really sick in this country. So, anyway, I'm honored to be. Be in this fight with you, Brian, and looking forward to many more collaborations to come.

Absolutely. We'll definitely be talking about more things, I'm sure. So thank you so much.

So that's it for today's show, everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed the show, please take a moment and subscribe and give a rating wherever you get your podcasts. It'll help spread the word to those who really need it the most. It.