109: Recovery Therapies for Mold Related Illness w/Michelle McKeon

Hello again everyone, and welcome to today's show. If you're one of the 130 million people that are dealing with Sirs Lyme disease, autoimmune disease, or other conditions that are impacted by mold on a daily basis and you need to learn how to eliminate that exposure, then you're in the right place. My name is Brian Carr and you're listening to Mold Finders Radio.

Everyone. Today we have Michelle McKeon on. Michelle is someone that you will bump across in the like mold Instagram circle of people that you end up deep diving at some point. And she has a lot of really cool stuff. Stuff. And her and I have talked a lot before kind of like behind the scenes and so like, hey, we should maybe talk like in front of the scenes. I guess so anyways, everyone, meet Michelle. Michelle, why don't you introduce yourself?

Hi everyone. I am Michelle. I am an integrative nutritionist. I specialize in tick borne infections, so Lyme disease and co infections and then also environmental toxins, so mold, heavy metals, all of that fun stuff. I have a nutrition practice balancing pathways. And then I also have a company called Lyme and Cancer Services where we help people that are battling Lyme disease or cancer looking into hyperthermia treatment. So we work with hospitals that offer hyperthermia treatment and then we schedule them at the facility.

Cool. So what I was thinking that we could chat about today was more done a lot of talk about like what symptoms are and stuff like that. Like, oh, you have mold issues, right? We, we've done some things on like treatment specific stuff. But you know, a lot of people are like hesitant to really get into it because everyone's, you know, so, so individual. Right. But I feel like it'd be kind of cool to maybe just talk like big picture different types of things that we can do. Whether it's like opening drainage pathways or specific detox methods, whether it's binders or things like that, or maybe it's even, you know, boosting your mitochondrial, you know, activity or your or your limbic system. Like all these different areas that are part of our sort of detox pathways. And there's things that you could do that are really not super expensive to do. And then there are things that you could do that are maybe more like bringing in technologies and stuff that might like, you know, add a little bit to it. But I feel like maybe that could be something that we spend a little more time on today just so people have an idea, some stuff. But before we do that, maybe let's Just go like big picture. So you just mentioned like all kinds of health things, basically. So, basically, and this is kind of the deal with mold is that it's like so connected with a lot of things, right? So there's Lyme and obviously co. Infections that go with that. There's autoimmune issues. There's. There's now blanking stuff. There's neurological stuff. There's. Which is like brain fog. There's gi. There's gut stuff. There's like all kinds of stuff.

What are some of like, kind of the main things that you see, like, big picture. And then maybe we can talk through some of these more like, you know, kind of like treatment modalities and stuff like that. Specifically, I want to talk about hyperthermics. I have no idea what it is, so I definitely want to talk about that too. That's great. Yeah.

So big picture. Usually when people come to me, they.

I usually work with people that have very complicated cases. And so there are multiple different systems in their body that are affected. And so we look into what's going on and whether people are dealing with gut issues or neurological symptoms or hormone and thyroid issues. Usually at the end of the day, the root cause is pretty similar. These symptoms are due to inflammation. And then we think, all right, what causes inflammation? And if there wasn't a severe accident or something, then we're usually looking into infections and environmental toxins. So when we go into that, we do testing for different types of infections and then also testing for toxins. And more often than not, most people have high levels of specifically mold, mycotoxins. And it's becoming a bigger and bigger issue. But it can affect really any area of your system. And so when you look into treatment wise, how you help the person feel better, a lot of it is similar because you're getting at the root cause of it. So one of the first things that I like to do before even bringing on binders is symptom wise and treatment wise, opening up drainage pathways. And this is so important because a lot of times I'll have clients come to me and they'll say, I've tried so many different treatments, nothing's working. I'm feeling so sick and. And I'm so frustrated. And it's so important to do things in. In the right order so your body is going to be receptive to it. A lot of times Lyme disease and mold will go hand in hand. When you have a higher pathogenic load, your body does not filter out toxins as efficiently as it Used to. So these people are trying to kill off pathogens, but their body's so super toxic that they're just circulating throughout their system and causing more inflammation. Before any binders and before any killing, we want to support your drainage pathways so that when you do kill pathways.

System and not circulate. And when we talk about supporting your drainage pathways, that's when we look into your lymphatic system and your liver and your kidneys and making sure your bile is working properly. So there are certain supplements that you can use that are really helpful for supporting.

That are great, especially for people with gut issues that don't want to be swallowing a lot of pills. And it's a gentle way of opening up your detox pathways and helping to get these toxins out.

I like doing this first because this part is very telling.

Hey, Rachel, can you hear me? Yeah, sorry. So, yeah, Michelle, you're, you're, you're chopping out a little bit here or there. Oh, yeah. Is there a way maybe you could, like, I literally stand, like, very close to my router when I'm doing this. Is there a way that you might be able to get.

Hmm. Let me go downstairs. Can you hear me now?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, Let me know if I start going in and out again.

Cool. Yeah, definitely. So we're talking lymphatic system, liver, kidneys, bile. Step one. We're kind of around there.

Okay. Yes. So we wanna make sure we start out kind of slow in the beginning because we're not sure how these people are going to tolerate treatments and get toxins out. And that's when you. You're looking at different tinctures and different supplements to support this. You can also do dry brushing to support the lymphatic system. You can do different types of saunas, ionic foot baths. All those things are going to help the body detox. But the other thing that's important before bringing on binders is also looking at face phase two and phase one detox. So certain mycotoxins will actually affect these different phases of detoxing. What I see a lot is that in, in phase two of detoxing, it deals with glucuronidation. And so if my clients are having a hard time in these different phases, we also bring on certain supplements to support glucuronidation so that not only are they getting at, you know, phase one of detoxing, we're getting at the second process to really eliminate it out of your system. That makes sense.

So is phase one kind of what we're talking about a second ago. And then phase two is something different or is. Was the initial just opening of pathways.

Is that separate from phase one usually open up pathways. If my clients are having a hard time with it, that's when I know different phases are. Are.

Basically clogged off. And that's when I will bring in different supplements to help support these different phases so that they can be removed a little bit more efficiently. And genetics also play a role into this as well. So depending on your genetics, you can also detox more effectively than others. But going slow will kind of give me a bigger picture on how this is going to go and what your body's going to tolerate.

So what's an example of phase one detox, then? What are some things that that means?

So milk thistle is an example of something you'd use for phase one, but if your phase two is clogged, then it's going to be an issue. So you can use milk thistle. And then I don't know if you're familiar with Bob Miller, but he is. He works in genetics, and he has a lot of different supplements that specifically help with phase two that I put my clients on to kind of support their detox pathways and their genetics.

Cool. Okay. So this is all kind of more natural stuff that we're doing kind of at the beginning, it sounds like it's more kind of food and supplementation and things like that before we get into doing any sort of.

Want to say pills, but like, you know, any, you know, binders and things that are. That are more like that.

Exactly. And so once we know how the body is detoxing, then we can bring on certain binders. And depending on what type of mycotoxin you're dealing with is going to be dependent on the type of binder that we choose. A lot of physicians will know cholestyramine. And cholestyramine is really good for ochratoxin, but it doesn't get at some of the other mycotoxins. So I try to use binders that will get at multiple different mycotoxins so that you don't have to be on so many different binders, because binders in itself can be constipating. And you, again, want to make sure everything is flowing out of your system. So there are certain binders that will have, like, bentonite, clay, activated charcoal, zeolite. All of these are getting at aflatoxin, gliotoxin, ochratoxin, tricothecine. Some of the more difficult mycotoxins that you really don't want in your system.

I'm taking notes while you're doing this. That's why I'm like pausing. So you said bentonite, clay, charcoal, and then zeolite. So all of those are. You said otratoxin, aflatoxin, gliotoxin.

Yeah. So I actually have a chart when I work with my clients, and so I we look into testing their home and whether it's working with inspectors like you guys, that I'll look at your charts and see what type of mold spores are in my client's home. And then I look into real time labs or great plans or vibrant labs and test the mycotoxins. And so my chart shows what specific mold spores make up the specific mycotoxins in their body. And then the chart under it has these certain binders that go with the mycotoxins in their body. So I know which ones to use. And then the chart below that goes into which specific mycotoxins affect which detox pathways. So whether it's affecting, like glucuronidation.

That's really cool. Yeah.

Yeah. I just feel like less is more when you're doing treatment. And a lot of these clients come to me with so many different supplements and treatments already, so I don't want to overburden them with so many different treatments that the devil is in the detail. And I want to get as specific as possible with treatment so that we can really get to the root cause and move forward and not try so many different. Different elements.

Yeah. And do you notice a difference? I know you said earlier that, you know, getting towards sort of root cause of inflammation sort of helps a lot of these different things that people are dealing with. But do you see any differences? Like if you're somebody, like if you have Lyme and you have co infections, do you attack that a little differently or do you start thinking about parasites at any point and like, when does that come into the thought process? Curious.

Yeah, that's a good question. So a lot of times when people are dealing with mold, they also have secondary conditions. So whether it is Lyme disease and co infections, whether it is different thyroid and hormone conditions, autoimmune conditions has been a big one, and mast cell activation syndrome. And so when you're dealing with Lyme, usually I try to treat the mold first and also make sure that they are in an environment that's going to be conducive.

Once we do that, then I feel like it's so much easier to treat the Lyme and you can also put it in remission a lot faster when you're not dealing with mold. Basically when you have Lyme disease and you're in an environment environment with mold, they kind of work synergistically together and create a lot of inflammation. But when my clients are out of mold and dealing with Lyme, then their treatment is so much easier. So I would say look into mold first before Lyme and then once the mold count is down. When you do antimicrobial treatments and stuff like that, your body is going to tolerate it so much better so that it'll get out of your system and not circulate and give you a large die off reaction. That's how I like to do it with Lyme. But with mast cell, that's something that gets really tricky. And for those of you that don't know what mast cell is, basically it deals with histamines. And so your body becomes super sensitive and almost allergic to not only food, but then a lot of different environmental factors. Fabrics, smells. Yeah, your body just becomes very sensitive to the world oftentimes. And so when we're looking into treatment, we have to go extra slow with this population because treatment, even good treatment, like different vitamins and supplements and saunas, can actually make the mast cells flare. And so if the mast cells flare, that's creating more inflammation. So really listening to your body and seeing what it can handle is crucial. When the mast cell piece comes in, doing something like a sauna initially, because heat actually makes mast cells flare, would not be great to start off with when, when with other people if they don't deal with mast cell, that's a great treatment to get those toxins out so it becomes a bit more specialized when that piece comes into it.

That's really interesting. I didn't know that about the heat portion of it. So is mast cell usually like a secondary effect that happens after you've had an exposure of some kind or you have another condition and then your body's just kind of in overdrive and then mast cell happens or. Or is it something that kind of happens on its own?

So I am noticing that mast cell has completely blown up the past two years. And there's a few different reasons for this. One, mast cell has been a big issue in the Lyme community, but because of COVID a lot of people that are having long haul Covid are then going into mast cell when their environment is involved. And so yeah, I'm just seeing it come up so much. And.

Usually if you have a Pathogenic load, and then you're exposed to environmental toxins, you start having a chronic inflammatory issue if you don't get out of the environment in time. And the body can go two ways. It can go into sirs, so chronic inflammatory response syndrome, and then it can also go into mast cell activation syndrome. And sometimes my clients are dealing with both, and sometimes my clients are just dealing with one or the other. And for my clients dealing with mast cell, I see that even when they get out of a environment that has mold, a lot of their mold specific symptoms will be gone, but their mast cell symptoms will still be there. And your body is almost put in this fight or flight state where it's on overdrive and it's trying to protect your body. It's used to protect your body and as a survival skill, but now it's gone haywire and it's having reactions to things that it really shouldn't have reactions to. And even like the littlest tiny bit of mold or mycotoxin or dust, your body will get inflamed when really it wouldn't have prior to that exposure, because that little bit of mycotoxin really isn't going to hurt you, but your body is in overdrive and it's seeing it as. And a foreign invader.

Yeah. It always feels to me when someone's describing kind of their symptom set and mast cells part of it, that it just kind of seems like it's been going on for a while. Usually it's not something that's, like, immediate, at least from what I've seen. And then eventually there's like the straw that broke the camel's back or something like, oh, we lived in a place for a couple years that we knew had a problem, and then everything started happening. Right, Exactly. And. And then like, on our end, I mean, it doesn't change necessarily how we're going through a home or whatever, but when we're having conversations, like, after the fact, and it comes up all the time, it's like, it happens a lot with, like, items and contents and belongings and stuff. It's like, yes, you go on these Facebook groups and everybody's like, burn all your. You burn your house down. Burn your stuff, run away. And for some people, maybe you need to do that. Right. I think that there's like a scale on, like, what is needed depending on the person. Right. It's so hard.

I agree.

Yeah. It's so hard to just say, okay, get rid of everything all the time. But I feel like the mast cell part of it, you're leaning more towards that aggressive side just because there's such a sensitivity to things. Do you see that too?

Exactly. So I think that that plays a big role whether you're dealing with mast cell and how sensitive your body is going to be and then also how your body detoxes and then the specific type of mold spore and mycotoxin that you were dealing with. So there, you know, there's like trichothosine and cotonium that are or in sachybotrys that are more dangerous and they cause tricothecine, that type of mycotoxin. So if I see that in my clients real time labs urine test, then I know that we're dealing with a more severe case. And it's really hard to get some of those mold spores and mycotoxins out of your possessions. And that's when it's like, okay, when in doubt, throw it out more, especially with porous items. But when you're dealing with some of the other types of mold spores, it may be worth with items that are not porous. So like metal and mirrors and stuff like that to try cleaning it. And there's many different ways to do it and that has been successful for a lot of people. However, even going through the process of cleaning it, that can get you sick. So it's really a matter of kind of what can your body handle. And if there is something that you don't feel at peace with, giving it away, I tell my clients, put it in a big plastic container and.

Don'T have it. Don't be exposed to it while you're going through the recovery process. And then later down the line when you're feeling better, you can see if you are having a reaction to it. If you still are months later, then you should throw it out. If you're not at that point, then you know your body's telling you it's okay.

Yeah, I say the same exact thing about that stuff. And like, I kind of think of it as almost like a chart where you have like a vertical and a horizontal axis. Like on the vertical is the type of item it is. So you go from like porous, semi porous to like solid basically. And then on the bottom side, it's the value of the item. So is it something that's cheap and easy to replace? Is it something that's expensive or is it something with sentimental value? And that becomes the chart. And then you kind of plot each item where they fall on the chart and then that Helps you, like, decide, like, am I even going to attempt trying to clean something in the first place? Right. Like, if it's. It's a porous item that's in the cheap category, like, guys just throw that out. Like, I promise your kid doesn't care if they have a different little stuffed animal. I've had to do it with mine. I get that they're connected to things, but at the end of the day, like, you have to think big picture, like, why we're doing all of this. Right. And for me, if you're going through this process, the big picture is a larger health concern. And if my kid likes their one little stuffed animal, they'll get over it eventually, you know, but, like, the health is the more important piece, you know, And I feel like sometimes we get so connected to certain things that we forget why we're even doing all this stuff in the first place, you know?

Yeah. There are so many different factors and elements that play a role in. In the mold piece, whether it's dealing with your health, relationships, or possessions and. And bringing in that factor that, like, you have to get rid of. You know, oftentimes a lot of your belongings can be incredibly overwhelming initially. But having. Having had pretty bad mold exposures in my past, I would say that it is very overwhelming initially. But then once you kind of get through the process and you start feeling better, it's also just like, okay, well, I feel good and it was worth it. And these items are replaceable, for sure.

Yeah. That's such a big thing. And. And kind of what we were saying before, I. I don't. I'm not one of the people that fall into the group that you have to throw out everything you own. I think it's, like, very specific to situation. I think it's what's in the house in the first place. Right. Like, if we go through the house and we're not, and there's no mycotoxins in the house, maybe there's a mold load, but there's no toxins in the house, then maybe you could be a little more, you know, know, a little more forgiving on certain things. Right. So, like, that's part of it. Part of it is kind of what we said. Like, if you're on, like, the mass cell side of the spectrum, you're probably going to be a little more more aggressive. I mean, I was working with someone the other day who had had some things going on, but they've started seeing some improvement already before we even got to the house. And some of the treatments they were doing, right? So I'm like, okay, so if you're already starting to see some improvement and you're noticing that, and we go through the house and we still find 25 things that we think is an issue in the house, then that probably means that, you know, you're not on the worst end of the scale in terms of how you're reacting to stuff, right? So maybe you could be a little more, you know, think about some things that you really don't and you could, and you could store things away until you get better, like you were talking about or, or choose to keep a couple things like maybe someone like that. And again, I never know the, the complete. I don't think anyone really, if we, if we knew a formula for this, it would be out there. Everybody would have it, right? So there's not a formula for this. But like, if you're, if, if you're in one of these positions where you're not like kind of on the really bad end, far end of the reaction spectrum. And you know what, what if you reduce your exposure by 75% overall, right. What if you remediated the house or got into a new spot that wasn't nearly as an issue and maybe got rid of like half of the things that were, you know, you kind of put all that together and let's say you have a 75% and just overall reduction, that's a big reduction that your body isn't dealing with anymore, right? So maybe that's enough for some people, maybe some people not.

I agree. I think there are certain items like that are very porous, like a mattress or a couch and pillow that if you're going to be lying on that item or sleeping on that item, you're going to get continual exposure where 100%, that's not worth it. But there are also some clothing items that are very thin that are not as porous. So for people that are like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna have to throw out all my clothes, that's not always the case. You can wash your clothes in like Borax and EC3 and different types of solutions a few times and then not be reactive to it, depending on how your sensitivity is and what mold spore you're dealing with. But yeah, it's not end all, be all. And if you are overwhelmed, just remember you can put it aside in something plastic so, so you're not getting exposed to it and then take it out later. And usually when months go by, you're feeling A little bit better later that when you take it out, if you have a reaction to it or not, it's not the end of the world because you're already in a better place.

Yeah, for sure. On the clothing stuff, I had this client years ago now, super wealthy client. You walk in their house and there's just like the closet is like the cost of somebody else's entire house, basically, the clothes in the closet. And. And so we go through the house, there's multiple mycotoxins in the house. There's all these problems and they're like, listen, we're not trying to throw away all of our clothes. This is like the cost of a small country, basically. And. All right, well, why don't we do this? Let's section out your clothing and let's just test batches of them separately. Obviously, the finances weren't a concern, so we could get really granular on the testing and be pretty specific and is something working? Is it not working? And try to get them to salvage that. Right. And so we took. We basically just made two batches of clothes. You do one batch that was stuff that they were going to throw in, like regular washing machine, and then one batch that's more dry cleaning clothes. And we tested them. We did PCR testing for mold, which is essentially what ermias just without like the whole ermi score and stuff. But it's the same. It's same panel, same DNA formatting, get a sense of the load on what was settling on them. And then we did mycotoxin testing on the. On the clothing too. Right. So we did that for both. Both of them had a, you know, pretty high mold load and both of them had toxins that had basically settled on the clothing. Right. So that's how we went in. Then they went and they didn't even. So for the washing machine portion of it, their doctor recommended that they use a solution that was part ammonia, part water. So that's what they use for their washing. I know it's a little aggressive for some people, but that's what they used. And then the dry cleaner just took it to regular dry cleaner. Like nothing special for the dry cleaner.

Okay.

Comes back, mycotoxins gone out of it afterwards when we retest it. And the mold was like way, way lower, which would be more just kind of normal settlement that you would get just from being a human, basically. And that's what it looked like. Right. And I actually, I don't think it had anything to do with like the ammonia and the solution and stuff, because the dry cleaning didn't show any of that either. But when you. Or didn't have any of that. But when, when you think about what you're doing, when you're washing clothes or fabrics or anything like that, you're essentially power washing them, Right. And it's not like mold was visibly growing on stuff. If that was the case, that's a different story. You throw it out, right? Yeah, but it was just cross contaminated settlement essentially. So we got the particle settlement out and then you can see the difference. So, you know, that's just like one story from someone where we've. I was able to really like, like isolate it down and really like see that as a case study. But you just think of that and say, okay, well if that works for clothes, what other things? I throw in a washing machine that aren't super thick. Right now you're talking like sheets, shoes. In there you're talking. Yeah, like whatever it is. And you know, you may not have the means to test every single thing. Right. I mean, not many people do.

Yeah, yeah, it all adds up.

But, but you know, there's, there's something that like people can lean on and see. And then at the end of the day sometimes like someone will just put something on. Especially if you're on the more reactive side when you have to be more aggressive anyway. But you'll put something on and you'll just know, like, there's nothing weird with this. And if that's the case, then cool, just get rid of that thing afterwards. But it's like, it's worth trying, you know?

Yeah, yeah, I agree. There was one apartment that I was staying in that within the first few days I could tell that there was an issue and my ear would be in so much pain and it would turn really red. So I got out of there and I washed my clothes and there, yeah, there were a few items that I guess I didn't wash like three times. And as soon as I put it on, my ear started turning red. And I was like, that's weird. And I was like, oh, this was the batch that I didn't do completely through. So I realized it, you know, your body, your body's smart. It will tell you. And then I washed it and I was fine when I wore it again.

Yeah, it's funny that you say your body smarter will tell you. I, I make this like version of this joke all the time that like, we like try to overthink things and we're like way too smart for our own good. Sometimes, yeah. And it's like you just like overthink stuff. And it's like at the end of the day, like if you, if you're getting a trigger from your body which is, which has no logical thinking, it's just literally acting to whatever's happening to it. It's the most, the most truth telling thing that's happening. Right. Like if something's happening, it reacts. It has no emotions, it doesn't care how long that your grandma gave you this chair. It doesn't care about any of that stuff. Right. Like if your body's telling you stuff, like listen to it and stop trying to validate things and make excuses for things and all of this stuff, you know, because you're only doing yourself, you're only doing yourself harm that way, you know? And we have this like incredible barometer, at least for people who are on the more sensitive side. I mean, I've had clients that walk in their house, they're like, there's, there's more behind this wall. They'll just point at it. And I'll look at the wall and I'll be like, there's literally nothing here that would make me think that there's a problem back here. There's no water damage, there's no moisture here. There's no history, historical thing that's happened that anyone's aware of. And then. But I'm like, you know what? Anytime someone tells me that they think there's something somewhere, I'm 100% sampling it because of what I just said. Right. And every time that happens, I mean, I'm sure there's been a time here, there that hasn't. But most times when that happens, there for sure is something going on back there. And it's just crazy. It's just another like, yeah, explanation of how that works. Yeah, it's so crazy. So you guys got to listen to your bodies and try, try to get out of your own way sometimes.

And especially like your body will start like whispering to you and giving you clues. But then when it's like screaming and your body is like really in a lot of pain, then it's like, okay, danger zone. We got to do something about this. So it's also about preventative and kind of making sure like, hey, listen to your body. And if there are some signs, let's try to look into it further before it gets worse.

Yeah. And I mean along this line, like this happens way earlier in the process too. It just. So many things get normalized, you know, oh, we're Getting older, this happens. Or all of a sudden I'm getting skin breakouts. That must just be because I was maybe around, you know, and you just like. Like all this stuff happens for a reason, you know, I feel like anyone who's listening to this, like, they are already kind of on that train, right? Because they're. They're already trying to figure stuff out. But there's a lot of people that walk around and they're feeling a certain way. That's not how they should be feeling. And they kind of know it. Right. But then there's all these reasons why it's happening. It's like, oh, well, you know, I'm older. Oh, you know, I'm over here now. Oh, it's allergy season. Or, oh, it's this, or, oh, it's that. And it's like, listen, maybe it's allergy season, right? It doesn't mean it can't be, but you gotta try to listen to that stuff instead of, like, immediately dismissing it, you know, and trying to normalize it.

Yep, yep. I completely agree. And again, when this stuff happens, it can be very overwhelming at first because some people in the house can have symptoms, and then other people don't always have symptoms, depending on genetics, pathogens, stuff like that that's going on in your body. But whenever my clients do have questions and there's some dispute of, like, well, I don't feel good, but he feels totally fine, then there are specific things you can do to get as many pieces to the puzzle to figure out exactly what's going. And that's kind of like what you guys do with doing specific testing. And then what I do, there's. There's so many different tests you can look into, like the urine mold, mycotoxin test, looking to the sirs, or chronic inflammatory response. There are certain biomarkers that.

Your body's going to react to, and it's going to show inflammatory markers and different hormone markers that's showing there's something more going on to give you the bigger picture. And even just there's this VCS test on Dr. Shoemaker's website that is like a simple $10 test you can do right from home that gives you an idea of how you're doing now as opposed to how you were doing, like, three months ago when. When you were in. In your home.

Yeah. The VCS test is a vision contrast test. And basically it's like how you see contrasting, like color, essentially.

It's interesting. Like, you don't think about this, but there's a neurological tie to that. Right. Obviously. So like, if you're not, if you're not seeing it the way that you're supposed to, it's like a clue that, that he has put together and part of his, you know, like, testing protocol to help kind of understand like, what's going on. So yeah, it's interesting and it's super cheap, like you said. Have you done it? I've never done it.

I have done it. I've done it with myself when I feel like I'm being exposed, exposed to mold. And then once I'm out of the environment and I take my binders and it's out of my system, the inflammation goes down, then I retest and my levels are more normal. And I like to do this with clients initially when we first start out. And then usually it takes like three months to have something consistent to really notice significant results. And so I have them do the test three months after that and, and kind of look at the difference of where they're. They're at.

Cool. Yeah. How many people do you work with that are actually dealing with like a mold exposure issue or something like that? Is it a large chunk? Is it a portion?

I would say that 80% of my clientele are people that are dealing with mold exposures. I work with different hospitals that not only treat people with Lyme disease and cancer, but also treat different neurodegenerative disorders and movement disorders like Parkinson's. Parkinson's, Mississippi, Dystonia, als. And they'll go to these hospitals for hyperthermia treatment. But then I help with pre and post treatment. And so whenever I test them, they've always, every single client that I've tested of theirs always comes up positive with tick borne infections and they always come up positive with high mold counts. And then I ask about kind of like occupation and stuff like that. And it's a huge piece of piece to the puzzle. So it's not, you know, it's not just people with Lyme disease that are susceptible. There are these other conditions that when you look at the root cause of it, you can kind of figure out how, how they got to that point. But, but yeah, then I, I've also worked with people that have been super healthy, don't have any tick borne infections, but have had a bad mold exposure. They tend to heal pretty, pretty fast treatments. But, but yeah, it's, it's, it's all different ends of the spectrum.

Hello?

You there? Bry?

Hello?

Yeah, sometimes the connection's a little funky, accidentally muted. What about what an amateur hour over here. Oh my goodness.

I was saying, can we dive in a little bit more into hyperthermia? Because I really don't really know what that is and I feel like I would like to.

Yeah. So a lot of people when I say hyperthermia they think of hypothermia so getting your body really cold, but it's actually the exact opposite. It is heavy, heating your body up. And the hospitals that I work with do extreme whole body hyperthermia. So that's going above 105 degrees as close to 107. The higher you go, the more pathogens you kill. Hyperthermia is really good at not only getting high enough to kill these different tick borne infections and parasites, but it also boosts your immune system and it breaks down bile films. When you have chronic Lyme disease, a lot of times antibiotics will not be able to get through biofilms and, and biofilms form around the spirocute or around the infection when you've had it for a prolonged period of time. So it's. Sometimes people will be on antibiotics, they start feeling, feeling better and then they get off of it and they feel crummy again, they relapse. Hyperthermia is more of a game changing treatment. Because it's getting high enough to kill these pathogens, it breaks down these biofilms, it's boosting your immune system. You can also use it in conjunction to antibiotics to penetrate the spirochetes more efficiently. But you can use a lower dose so it's not as toxic. So that's, that's some of the treatments that or the ways we really like hyperthermia for Lyme and then it's also used for people with cancer and it's, it's done. There's a few different ways you can do it. You can do moderate hyperthermia, which is 104 and below and that's boosting your immune system. You can do it localized so heating up a space specific part that you, you may have a tumor in or extreme whole body. And they usually use a low dose of an anti cancer agent, whether it's chemotherapy or something like that. And you can use a very low dose but when your body's heated up it's a lot more effective but because of the low dose it's not as toxic. And then there are these heat shock proteins that go around the, the cancer cells and so your body is kind of aware now where it needs to kind of target and fight. So they're using a three part approach. They're using insulin potentiated chemotherapy. So low dose of chemo, getting at the, the cancer cells more efficiently because of the.

Of the heat shock proteins around it. And then they're also boosting your immune system with it.

Wow, so that sounds really hot.

So how do they manage that like while it's happening? Or do they not? Or like, like what do you like? You did this, right? You went to Germany.

I did, I did. Okay, so what does this feel like years ago?

I'm so interested.

So you're actually in a twilight sleep. You're not awake when this is happening. It sounds so much scarier than what it actually is. It's a very safe procedure. You start out lying on a bed and they're using infrared heat to slowly bring your body temperature up. And I work with some of the sickest of the sickest people and everyone that I've worked with has been able to tolerate and respond well to this treatment. But it can be a four to five hour procedure. They're slowly bringing your body temperature up. They get you above 105 and they try to do like a peak temperature. So they actually got me up to 107.5 for I want to say like 15 minutes. And then they bring you back down and then you go down to a cool down period. I woke up, I felt exhausted, like I had just run a marathon. You, you just relax and you get, you get IVs and infusions and liquids the rest of the day. And these hospitals are inpatient facilities. So you're detoxing a lot while you're there. When, when you do hyperthermia treatment, pathogens die. When pathogens die, they expel toxins. Toxins create inflammation, which adds to your symptoms. And you want to be able to tolerate the die off reaction, which is where these other detox therapies at the hospital comes in so that you're comfortable.

Wow. So I mean, how effective is this stuff? So I guess, I mean, you're talking cancer and Lyme, two very, very different things. But like, I don't know, what are some of the success stories or things that you've seen? Obviously you're one of them, it sounds like, but.

Yeah, yeah, that's a really good question. Okay, so in regard to success, I would say that hyperthermia is very, very successful in lowering your pathogenic load. There are 300 strains of Borrelia, most likely more than that. And then there's all these co infections, Bartonella, Babesia, Ricklea. And we are seeing that it's very effective at getting at Borrelia. So Lyme disease, at Bartonella, another co infection, some strains of Abesia, not all strains. And so I think it's really important in having sustainable results for when people come back, doing things in the right order.

And that really controls the success of it. So you go over there, you receive hyperthermia treatment, you kill a lot of the pathogenic load. But if your body is having a hard time detoxing, then it takes a longer time to see results. You are at this facility for a few weeks, but two to three weeks is not enough to get all these now dead pathogens, these toxins out of your system. The people that are doing persistent and consistent detoxing for at least three months when they come back are the ones that are seeing the most sustainable results. I work with people pre and post treatment and so I've seen kind of what's working, what's not working. When people come back and they go back on antibiotics, that's kind of when they crash and burn. Because you're already dealing with a large die off reaction. Your body can't handle any more killing and so going back on antibiotics is not the right move. You want to continue detoxing when you come back. And then I use antimicrobial, herbal, something from like Steven Buhner's protocol, and to kill whatever pathogens are left. Herbals get through biofilms which antibiotics don't always and it's putting less strain on the body. It's all about timing though. So first you come back, you do a lot of detox, then you bring in some antimicrobials. And tick borne infections are so complicated. So it's not just about killing. You are also usually dealing with candida issues, gut issues, whether it's sibo or leaky gut, mold issues, heavy metal issues. If I see people come back and they are seeing slower results, usually we're missing something. Nine times out of ten it's that their home has mold and it's not conducive to them moving forward. And that also plays into when I have clients doing really, really well. And then they call me years later and they say, hey, I'm having a flare up of symptoms. I'm not sure what happened because I didn't get bit. Again, nine times out of ten it's that they had a bad mold exposure and it's causing their symptoms to flare up. So to answer it in a simple way, hyperthermia is very, very effective in lowering pathogenic load. Tick borne infections are super complicated. So there is more to do than just hyperthermia treatment. It's not a silver bullet treatment for everybody, but it's a really good way to lower your pathogenic load and boost your immune system so your body can respond to other treatments and help it move forward.

Yeah, that makes sense. Is this something that you see kind of accelerates the treatment process because you're kind of getting a larger portion of.

It knocked out at once, 100%. I was not responding to any treatments that I was trying, and I was going downhill and declining in health very, very fast. And so my doctors had a recommended hyperthermia treatment, and it was the first treatment that my body responded to.

And.

And then I came back and I'd have, like, a glutathione IV or phosphatidylcholine iv, and I'd actually feel better after it. So I started realizing, wow, detoxing is actually a really big piece to this process, and my body is receptive to it. So it's all about the stage of which you do things that your body's gonna be receptive to it to move forward.

Got it. So is this more widely. I mean, you had to go to Germany to do this, right? So, like, is this more, like, available now, like, in the country or no?

Yeah. So there are two hospitals in Germany that I work with. There is one hospital in Rosarita, Mexico, that I work with, and then there's another hospital in Florida that I work with. They all do extreme whole body hyperthermia treatment. I like extreme whole body the best because you're killing the most amount of pathogens. There are some other facilities in the US that do moderate hyperthermia, so. So, yeah, they're doing moderate. I would more recommend extreme whole bodies, and there is a place in Florida that does that. BTT Medical Institute.

Wow, that's super cool. I always love learning about new stuff. Super cool.

Awesome. So we're kind of coming up on the end here. Is there anything else that you feel like that we should throw out there?

I was just going to touch a bit more on the treatment piece. So, you know, we talked about the opening up drainage pathways and using certain binders to get these specific mycotoxins out of your system, making sure your home is conducive to you healing. You can use different, like air filters, hepa, vacuum, stuff like that. But also when you're going through the treatment process, and if you are one of the more complicated pieces, there are other tools to use. And some of my favorite tools besides just like General saunas, colonics, coffee enemas, lymphatic massages, stuff like that. Those are all beneficial. But one of my favorites for the more complex cases is something called the Patricia Kane Protocol. And These are different IVAs. They're infusions of phosphatidylcholine, phenylbutyrate, leucovorin and glutathione. Glutathione is the major antioxidant in your body, so it helps you detoxify toxins out of your system. And phosphatidylcholine is a lipid. Mycotoxins love fats. So it's going in the. Mycotoxins are attaching to the phosphatidylcholine. It's bringing it out. And it's also helping repair cell membrane damage and support your mitochondria when you have been exposed to mold mycotoxins, it plays a role in all of that. So not only do we need to get these now mycotoxins out of your system, but we also need to repair. Repair your mitochondria and support or your. Repair your cell membranes and support your mitochondria. And phenylbuterate is the other infusion that makes everything get into the cells a lot more efficiently. So using this, these four IVs usually kind of accelerates the process for my more complex clients and helps so much with recovery.

So many symptoms, and one of their most frustrating symptoms is like, anxiety, wired irritability, stuff like that. Once we get those mycotoxins out of your system, they're not left with that wired feeling, but they're now fatigued. And it's because it played a huge role in your mitochondria. Your mitochondria is what creates ATP, which is the source of energy. So once these mycotoxins are out of your system, we want to build and repair. And these infusions are great for that as there's also a lot of supplements that are great for that. And then look into limbic system retraining. If you had a bad exposure, sometimes your body can go into fight or flight mode. And so reinforcing and doing different therapies for your limbic system and your vagal nerve is also crucial in the recovery process.

Is that like, what's. I forget what the acronym is for this stuff.

Yes. Thank you, program.

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of really great ones. Joe Dispenzo has, has some great limbic system and meditation techniques. And so it's putting your Your nervous system in, in a better place because it does not have to be in this fight or flight. You're in a safer environment. And it's really like physical therapy for your brain. Just like if you were in a car accident and you had to do physical therapy on your arm or your leg, this is for your brain.

Right, right. Because you could go in somewhere. Yeah, I was talking. Who was it? I think it was doctor. I think it was Dr. Tessier when she was on, we were talking about how you could basically be in a much better spot. You know, treatments are working and you're doing pretty well. Walk into somebody's house, you go into their bathroom, you're hanging out, go to their bathroom, you see mold in the grout of their shower. And then immediately all the symptoms come back. But it's because of your brain and it's not because of your body, basically. Um, so it's interesting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but yeah, to, to have these skills and to go through this training of limbic system retraining. Instead of your body going into an inflammatory mode, you can stop it in its tracks. And, and, and yeah, kind of can control your symptoms a bit better. The one other piece that I wanted to mention is diet. When you are exposed to mold, it can create a lot of different conditions, whether it's sibo, so small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, or leaky gut or MAST cell. So depending on what specific conditions you're dealing with, it's going to be very specific. On the diet people with mast cell, I would recommend, like a low histamine diet. People with sibo, they do better on a low fodmap diet. And then people with leaky gut, you can actually do a lot of, like, pro. Probiotics and fermented foods, which is not great for people with SIBO or mast cell. So it's going to be very specific into what condition you're dealing with.

And that's where it can get a little tricky because I have clients that come to me and they're like, I'm so frustrated. I've tried so many different diets. It's not working. And making sure that you get to the devil in detail is crucial in getting the right treatment for them.

100%. Yeah, completely agree. Well, thank you so much for jumping on with us today. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks so much for everything that you do and creating awareness. Yeah, you have a lot of great resources out there, so I appreciate all that you're doing for this community.

Thank you. So where can people find you.

So I have my nutrition practice called Balancing pathways and it's balancingpathways.com I also have my company, Lyme and Cancer Services, lymecancerservices.com and then my Instagram handle is Lyme and Cancer Services. I'm actually merging my companies and the name will be changing to the Lyme specialist within the next few weeks. But I'm happy to help whoever needs it. I've been through it myself and it can definitely be an overwhelming process, but there is light on the other side.

That's right. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for joining us. We'll be back next time. Have a good one, everyone.

So that's it for today's show, everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed the show, please take a moment, subscribe and give a rating. Where wherever you get your podcasts. It'll help spread the word to those who really need it the most.