174: The Expert Approach to Landlords

Hello again, everyone, and welcome to today's show. If you're one of the 130 million people that are dealing with Sirs Lyme disease, autoimmune disease, or other conditions that are impacted by mold on a daily basis, and you need to learn how to eliminate that exposure, then you're in the right place. My name is Brian Carr, and you're listening to Mold Finders Radio.

Hello, everyone. Today, the man, the myth, the legend is present on the show. Some of you may have heard me talk about my father in law. I talk about him a lot. If you haven't heard the entire story, you can go listen literally, to episode one of this podcast from, like, four years ago, and I tell you the exact story, story of where I started, where all this happened. And it happened because of the guy that's on the show with right now who is also, like I said, my father in law and my mentor. And honestly, like, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if it wasn't for him. So if anybody has been appreciative of any of the content or anything that's going on, really, you should guide your target, your appreciation towards Mark, because he's the reason that all of it happens. So I have Mark on today. We're going to talk about a couple things, and I'm kind of excited to get into it. So, Mark. Hey.

Hey. Well, thank you for giving me an opportunity to join you today. First off, I got to tell you that I'm so proud of what you've built here. I mean, the information that we're sending out to people and the receptivity and what I hear from our clients is just amazing. Right? I mean, they. They see not only the fact that we're an inspection company that's top notch, but it's really in the information that we're providing them, right? So knowing that we can empower our clients and give them the knowledge that they need so that they can have the comfort to take the steps without any kind of fear and really overcoming the situations that they're dealing with is really something that I feel so really good about. So. And that's really what your group does, right? Your group, your department, what you've created here. And it's something that I'm so proud to be part of, and I'm proud of you for really creating that. So thanks for having me here today. It's appreciative.

Thank you. So nice. You know, it's funny, a lot of. A lot of what you said, like, just Kind of like, going back, like.

A lot of what. How I speak to people, even how I speak now publicly and stuff, has all been sort of shaped by how you and I were talking or how you. I should say, you were talking to people way back when, and I was listening, like. So for those of you, like, who don't know which, probably a lot of you. I'm sure not all of you have gone all the way back four years ago, almost, in episode one. But the quick overview here is I wasn't. I didn't know what mold was. I was a regular everyday person, just like most of you listening. And I had a ceiling leak in my apartment, and it basically flooded down onto my bed, and it created a big problem. And, you know, to kind of get through it a little more quickly, Landlord comes in, says everything's fine. You know, of course they do. They dry it out, say everything's fine. I start getting symptomatic. Over the course of two months, we get. I have them bring in a mold inspector, which is what most people would do. And the reason I kind of want to highlight this is because it's talking about being a renter in a situation. And as we get to the back end of this, Mark actually just went through a different situation as a renter. And so I just wanted. I thought it'd be cool, like, hear how somebody who knows how to navigate this stuff handled it to get it handled the right way. Right. So that's kind of where we're getting at the end of this, at the back end of this episode. But Landlord brings in an inspector. They do a couple air samples, like they all do. Of course, they say there's no problem, and they say everything's fine. Meanwhile, I'm getting more and more symptomatic, and I. I just happened to be dating at the time, who turned into my wife in the future. And Nikki is Mark's daughter. And she's like, hey, everything that you're saying to me sounds like what my dad talks about all the time. Like, the symptoms, the this, the that, all this stuff. You should have him come in and, like, see what's going on. And, like, we hadn't really, like, met a whole lot yet at that time. And I was like, I don't know if I want this to be the way that, like, I'm like, hey, here I am. I. Help me. But eventually, I kind of hit the point where I felt like I had to. I didn't have a choice. You come in, find out there's actually a Whole bunch of stuff going on. Find out that my room essentially had the four walls surrounding me, were still damp and wet from that massive water event that happened, even though everyone said everything was fine. And I was basically sleeping in a toxic box for two months. And of course, I started getting symptomatic right now. That's. That's the how do you do an inspection? Part of it, which is great. That's important, right? But the. The real thing that actually triggered me to even want to get into doing this was the piece after that. When you ask me, I always say this. You asked me this question, and you ask everybody this question in fairness, but you asked me this question, and it really helped put perspective, and I think it really shapes, like, even, like, how we consult with people. It was like, what's your goal? What's your objective here? What do you want to happen now?

Right?

And I didn't even know to ask myself that question, frankly. And so now I'm sitting, I'm like, oh, God, what do I want to happen now? And I think a lot of us get there, we're just, like, driving forward, driving forward, driving forward. You know, here's the next thing. Here's the next thing without ever really knowing, like, what the point of it is and where we want to end up at the end of the day. And that truly does drive, like, decisions you make. And so if you don't know that end point, you start making decisions that don't take you there, right? Because you're not focused on where the endpoint is. And so anyways, I asked you. I don't even know if you remember this conversation, but I asked you, I was like, what do you mean, what do I want to happen? Like, I felt like. I felt like, as a renter, I had no say in what I wanted to happen. I felt like I had, you know, like I was just at the whim of the. Of, you know, the. The landlord God over here to do whatever they wanted. And. And then you were like, well, I mean, do you want to stay here? Do you want to leave? Do you want to whatever? And I was only like, three months into my lease at that time, and I was like, well, I can't leave. And you were like, sure you can.

Of course you can. And, you know, as we say, you know, come to realize that, like, hey, you know, contracts are only as enforceable as the people who want to enforce them, right? So, like, if you make a contract a headache for someone, they're going to let you out of that contract. Like, they can do. They have the power to do that. Right? And it was just like a very interesting, like, learning, like, life learning lesson for me because I was still, you know, I was much younger than we were talking, like, what we're talking like 10, 15 years, 10, 12, 13 years ago, whenever this was. Yeah. And. And so anyways, you help. You actually helped me get out of the lease. I remember calling you. I was like, I don't know how to talk to this guy. Can you get on the phone and talk to him for me? And, like. And so I'm like, listening. You talk to this guy. I was like, so nervous. And you're like, talking to this guy, and next thing you know, I'm not only getting out of my lease, but I'm like getting a check to leave.

What happened? And, and then I ended up using that same framework that I learned from you later on, because every place that I lived in LA ended up having some sort of water issue and I had to force my way out. And so I had this, like, roadmap, how to get myself out of a place, you know, how to make yourself annoying. How to scare somebody into, you know, and realize that other people will just come in and take it, and it's easier for them just to let you out than. Than otherwise. And so, so that was kind of. That was kind of the whole process. But, you know, after that, if you remember, I was like, I want to work for you. You're like, whoa, yeah. You're like, maybe slow down a minute.

And shadow me for a. I said, well, let's. Let's just see if you like what I do first. Right? Because this is something that, when you get into doing this, this line of work, you know, it's. It's very hard, man. It's going into people's homes. It's being able to really. The labor behind it is really taxing too. Right. So it may sound like it's intriguing, but when you get into it, it's not like your everyday type of work where you're just going out and maybe working in a contractor's type of mentality where you're just doing contracting work. Because many times when you do this type of work, you're going into crawl spaces, you're going into attics, and you're putting yourself in quite danger if you're not paying attention to what you're doing. So. But it's, it's very rewarding what we do. I just love, love, love what we do.

It really is. And so you ask Me that. And you're like, why don't you just see if you like him first? I'm like, okay, so. So the plan was to shout at you for a month, basically, and then make a decision. And I actually remember you saying this, too. I remember a lot of all this time was obviously very, like, impactful on where my life has gone since then. And you're so. I. You know, my background is in advertising for people who don't know. So that was my background. And I was like, I mean, I. I guess I'll just go get. You know, because the story behind this was, it was 2008. There was, you know, the recession had actually been laid off pretty close to this point. So at this time, I didn't have a job. And maybe that's why you were like, hey, shadow me for a minute. Because I was, like, unemployed at the time, too. And you're like, let's not just jump at something.

But you.

But you said something like, hey, listen, you could always go get another marketing job. Your background is great there, but you'll never really be able to do anything like this. And I promise you, it'll be the most rewarding thing you've ever done. And I was like, all right. Like that. Yeah, I saw what happened here. That sounds like, let's give it a month. Let's see what happens. And then the very first.

The very first inspection I went on with you was an apartment. It was a slightly older woman. I mean, I guess now she's probably my age now, right? For me, she was older when we went out and similar stuff going on. And she was symptomatic. And our landlord, it was like I was like, almost seeing the same exact thing happen just at somebody else's house. And we walk out, and the appreciation that she expressed to you afterwards, and I'm like, this is what it's like.

Like, like this just happens all the time, right? Like. Like. And you're kind of like, yeah, it kind of does happen all the time. Like, this is. This is the epidemic of homes that we have to deal with, and these are the people that are impacted by it. And this is. This is part of what I was talking about, that rewarding thing. And so anyways, that. That's some of the background. But what I wanted to talk about next is sort of like what Mark, what you do with us now, because way back then, we inspect wasn't a thing, right? So way back then, Mark had started and owned a company called the Mole Guy, which is the company that I ultimately worked for. For a period of time before we inspect started. And then we, you know, eventually, like, combined, you know, companies.

So at the time, as I. As I get out of my. Let's call it my probation month, if you will, that first month now, I'm. I'm. I'm literally shadowing you and going on every single inspection with you for, like, a year solid. Like, every day. And, yeah, not just going to the job, but it's the car ride to and from. Like, we didn't ever ride separate. Like, this was. This was, like, really important time to sit here and talk about stuff and, like, understand what was happening beforehand and how your mind prepped to walk into a place. And then once you leave a place, let's recap what happened here. Like, let's cement in what we learned, what we didn't learn, like, all this stuff. So those car rides were really, really, I think, important in my development because you're hearing it, like, more than just like, oh, I walk in, I see something, I leave. You're getting the context on the front and the back, and you start understanding, like, the philosophy behind stuff. But one thing. One of the things that happened in those car rides is, you know, when. When you're a smaller company, like we were, you have to do everything. You literally did everything. So phone call comes in. Who's answering the phone? Mark's answering the phone. I'm answering the phone. We're talking to people who are just interested in what we do. We are also scheduling our own calendar. We're also driving to our own inspections. And at some point through all of that, we are also consulting with all of our clients throughout that process, which meant, at least for me, you can tell me what you did. What it meant for me is I had a setup in my car where I had, like, a. Like a tablet, iPad holder, like, kind of on my. Like, on my right side, like, almost like where a police officer would have their computer. And while I was driving, either to or from an inspection, I would schedule my consulting phone calls with previous clients, and I would have on that iPad their lab results and their reports that I had written and all that stuff. And I'm basically, like, juggling five jobs, like, at once trying to do this and figuring out how to do it, you know, well enough where people are, you know, grateful and satisfied. But, man, that was. That was tough to do. And you were doing these calls the same way. Like, I mean, it was tough, right? Like, to be able to do it.

Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, in the early days, you're. You're a lone soldier, so you're going to have to do whatever you can to, you know, continue to move on and help other people, but at the same time, juggle different projects. And, you know, the best times sometimes were that windshield time where we had the opportunity to be able to call clients and really go through and discuss their reports with them. Many times what I would do is that I had some windshield time, but I'd set some time aside so that I could actually take a really good, solid look at what was going on with their report, look at their labs, and make sure that I had a really good sense in terms of how I was going to really explain to them what was going on within their home. Today it's so different because I love the way that we've identified really, the different organizations that we've established as far as the way that we structured ourselves, because it really gives us the opportunity now to really give people the full service that they deserve, right? So when we go out, specifically, we have an inspection person that goes out. He's fully certified. He's put a lot of time and energy into learning his trade, and we put a lot of time and energy and making sure that they're certified and learning the things that they need to before they even go out into the field to be those technicians that are out there. But more importantly, we have a guy that's tenured that's overseeing that project, real time, right? So we got people that are really more of a team concept that we have, which I love because it gives us the opportunity to take our resources and strategically surround our clients with the best expertise that we have. And so where I'm working today is really at the back end of it, because I work with the reports. Now, from my perspective, the report is where the rubber hits the road, right? And we have very comprehensive reports. They're very extensive. And quite honestly, as you know, they're very deep and they're very detailed, and there's a lot of volume to it, and there's a lot of information that's there. And so when people get our reports, they're overwhelmed, right? I mean, if they're like anybody else, they're overwhelmed. They need to understand exactly what this report really dictates, what's the true meaning behind the labs that we're seeing, and how can I really take steps that I think are going to be really good steps for me to take care of the problem that I have? But that's why we have these Calls. So I'm heading up the group. It's our consulting group, which I don't know quite honestly, Brian. Any company in our industry that does what we do. Right. Because we have a separate group which I oversee with was Zach Chaidez. And what we do is that we actually go back and we look at every aspect of this process that our client's gone through. Right. So we're overseeing exactly the day that the inspection person's coming out, we're reviewing every single one of the steps that he's making along with way because we have a back office that we're able to see everything. And then we're looking at the labs that are coming in. And then we're actually looking at the way that the report was devised from our report team. And then we're formulating exactly what we need to talk about when we get on these calls. So when we go into a call with our clients on the back end in terms of the report review, we know everything about that client, why they came to us, what their issues were, what's going on within the home, and we're able to kind of walk them through. And by the time we're done with it, they have a really good understanding of how they can navigate through that report. What the report actually really is dictating to them in terms of the, the labs themselves. And what we've done, which I don't think any company has done this out there today, is that we've actually established a priority list for our clients. So now they're able to not only take a look at that report and see that that report has all this information, but we've been able to create an adjunct to it where it gives them the key areas of how they want to focus their, their remediation efforts. Right. From A to, to D. In other words, A being the key area of importance down to B, C, D and E. And it really helps them really kind of get themselves in a position where they can really try to minimize the amount of work. Because we know that many times people can't really do a full home remediation. Right. They need to really try to take their funds and use it in a way where it can be to their best, their best interest. And so that's what we help them with. And I think that this particular group that we've created here, in my opinion, is definitely one that is really above and beyond what we're seeing in the industry today.

Yeah, the consulting team has been amazing. And just to give some more context for, like, structure. It's like, the reason I wanted to talk about how it used to be is because Mark and I literally were every team but. And we almost were like our own, like, company within it because we would just sort of manage our own client from front to back, and there wasn't really any support anywhere. Right. So, you know, you had. You did your prep. I think you did. You carve time out at night to do your stuff for people Sometimes. What I did is I did all my prep for the calls. I knew that I had scheduled that day for myself in the car, like, the windshield time calls. I did the prep in the morning before I left the house. So, okay, so this call happened. This is. Okay. So I'm good. So now when I talk to that person in four hours, I know what I'm talking about, right? And, like, that's how I did it. But the cool thing about the consulting group and you said this, I just really want to, like, emphasize it because it's incredibly important. There's obviously, like, value to every step of this process, right? Like, if you don't find where the problems are potentially, then everything downstream doesn't work. Right. If you don't test the right way, then you don't have the right information to analyze later. Like, all that stuff obviously is important, but, like, when you get to the end, the end is where people have question, and that's ultimately the part where they, like, need the most support is the end, not, like the middle of us going through the house and all this stuff. At that point, they're just kind of, like, letting us do our thing and waiting until the end when they have a report in front of them and then all their questions come up. And the questions that come up on the back end a lot of times, and that's why it's so important that you are here in that spot where you are and that we have a team, like, training underneath you. Kind of the way that I did and learning this stuff is because it's the situational things that come up. Right? And while there are a lot of situations that are somewhat similar that we hear about, you know, that are more regular here, there are also situations that certain people might be in that are pretty unique, Right. And what you need to be able to do as a consultant on the back end is draw from experience in other places to be able to create a strategy on how to attack and solve a situation. Right? Like, if you're not able to do that, then you really aren't doing your job as A consultant on the back end and having somebody who's basically pushing down the knowledge of 20 plus years. You've literally seen everything, right? So having someone who has seen anything and everything that can happen, who is now shaping the group of consultants that are, that are being groomed right now in the department sets it up to where this consulting group to what you're saying like there's nothing like this, right? There's other consultants out there and you know, I've never consulted with them personally. I can't speak to how good or how not good they are. But what I know that is not happening is that I know they're not creating an entire new crop of consultants underneath them that are going to shape where the industry moves in the future. Because no other company is set up the way that we are at our scale and at, with our knowledge base that we have at the top across every department. What's so cool about how it's structured? I didn't mean to get into this, we'll stop here at this point. But it's, there's myself, there's Corey who's you know, my partner and my cousin. There's Mark who's my father in law, Mark's brother, twin brother Steve is Corey's dad. These are the two people that taught Corey and I how to do everything right. So you basically have a second generation of what's going of knowledge being passed down. You also have Mark's other son Jason who got like 15 years of doing this under his belt. And we basically have collected a knowledge base across the top end leadership of the company that at every department and every division across there is something, there's someone on top who has been doing it forever and it makes sure that the quality and the consulting and like all the other things that come up along the way are in line. Right. And that's, there just aren't other inspection companies out there that have that luxury, right. They're more kind of like mom and pop shopped and they're more kind of like what we were was like solo warriors and maybe they have like support staff or an admin or something like that. But there's not this breadth of just industry knowledge littered across the top of the org chart in the business. Right. And so that's like, it's just amazing that we've been able to kind of to do that. And, and it's really a testament to you and Steve, if I meant twin brother Steve is who the Steve is. Right?

Well look, I, I, I so appreciate that because, you know, I've had conversations with Steve and our whole goal was one day to create a whole new breed of indoor air quality professionals that were above and beyond what we've been seeing in the industry. And we know that the industry has a lot of growth and a lot of development that it needs. And I think when you take a look at what we do, and I'm not just trying to be arrogant about the fact of who we are, but I really believe that we are without a doubt one of the top companies in terms of what we do and the way that we go about it. And we've been able to show our clients in terms of the type of in depth, comprehensive approach that we take and the way that we really are there to help them every step of the way. I mean, at the end of the day, the most important thing to me is the client and the best interest of that client. And that's one of the things that we preach every single day, is to do what's in the best interest of our clients. And so we know that when our clients come to us and they know that there's a mold issue, especially when they're sick, it is one of the most fearful things that these people have to go through. Right? And it's. And then when they find out that their house is the cause and they had no clue that their house was making them sick, people just become just unbelievably devastated. In terms of what, what are the next steps? What do we have to do? So if we can make it a little bit easier for people to understand what's going on within their home, but more importantly, I think, which is really key, that what we do is that we also help people with other resources because we have people that we know of, remediation contractors, content cleaners. We have a myriad of different types of companies that are out there that we can help people really be surrounded by, that they can have starting points for people that they could do due diligence on to help them with their projects and what they need to do moving forward. And I find that that's one of the most fearful things that people have to go to is what now? Who do I call? Because I've heard all these horror stories that are out there, and because of the amount of time and experience and really working with companies over the years, we have people that we can at least give people an opportunity for their consideration, to be able to talk with.

Yeah, it's super important. And everything that you said is 100% true. Right. So I want to, I want to shift now to get to the back end of this, which is actually why we were like, hey, we should record something. But actually, before we even start recording, I was like, I haven't even talked to you in a while. Like, like, it's just nice to catch up. Oh, you just so, so set some background here. So Marcus was currently renting the home that he was living in, like a lot of people are. And he had an issue come up in his space in his place, which I'll let him talk about. And he handled it the way that someone who's been doing this for 20 plus years would handle it. Right. And guess what? It got handled the same way that my thing in my apartment got handled 12 years ago. And like all these things that you helped out with. And so what we're going to do is just kind of have you talk about, like, what happened, sort of what the back and forth was like what you did and, and how you got it handled. And you know, for people listening, this is a specific issue, obviously, right. This one thing happens. This is how Mark handled it. But we're going to be able to get an, a general understanding of like, how you package, you know, information, how you, like just kind of how you do, how you talk to your, you know, your landlords and stuff, how what you, what you should and can say even, right. That people don't think of. So, so I'm going to leave it at that and let you kind of set the stage on what happened. And then I might ask some questions here or there while you're going.

Absolutely. So. So, as you know, I actually just moved. I moved into a brand new home. A brand new home, right. So I'm the first.

Family to live in this house. But it was one that I'm renting, so I'm not. I did not purchase this house. So I'm dealing with a cluster of people, meaning that I have a management company that I'm dealing with, the owner of the home that I have to deal with, the builder that I have to deal with, because if there's any issues, there's under warranty that we're going to have to go to them for. And then because of what I had to deal with, with this water loss, I had to deal with a restoration company who actually was brought in by the builder. Right. So what's interesting is, is that when we deal with all these different types of people, I want you to understand that there's always going to be challenges. Right. And even Someone like myself that has over 20 years of experience in the field of what we do, we're going to get challenged, right? And so what happened was, is that I was going to do my first round of laundry, right? And so I actually put the clothes into the washer. I was kind of excited, actually, that I was able to do my first round. And when I came back into the room, I noticed that there was water all over the laundry room. And I go, oh, no, this is not good. Right? Because we, we know, Brian, that any type of backflow from, from a washing machine is what we call category three water loss. Right? Now, the ircrc, which is the Inspection Institute for Cleaning Restoration Certification, they've outlined certain categories of water loss, Category one, two, and three. And if I can, category one is what we would consider to be more like clean water event, right? That's like an example of a supply line gets severed and then water just starts to migrate throughout. However, I would argue that once it hits the substrate, there's no such thing as clean water. It's going to be really gray water because it's going to hit the substrate, it becomes dirty. Right.

When you say substrate, real quick, just to clarify, like, what substrate means if somebody doesn't know that I'm talking about.

It hits the floor, it goes through the building envelope, it goes through walls and so forth. Once it hits the, the flooring and once it goes through walls, it actually becomes dirty water, right? It becomes gray water, which could actually carry certain types of contaminants that can actually be of a health consequence. Right. So we want to be able to understand the different categories because if you're dealing with your restoration company, there's certain procedures that take place, right. In terms of how to handle it. So the.

Can I ask you something? Can jump in and ask you something real quick. Yeah. So you walk into the room. What is your first thought when you see the water issue? What's the first thing that you're thinking, like, what's your concern? Like, oh, there's water. I'm concerned about X. What's your concern?

Well, my, My concern because Betsy, who, who is my significant other, she's. She's immune compromised, right? So I'm thinking, no, man, this is not good, right? Because this has the, the ability to. To get. To be a serious issue where I know that if things aren't done appropriately, it could actually proliferate and create issues throughout the house, right. Because no water event is isolated to one area. Because a home's a living, breathing system. So I knew that this was going to be an issue, so I needed to tackle it right away. So what I did was, is that the first thing is that when I walked in there, I started looking down and I could step on the floor and I could see the water coming up from underneath the floor. So I knew that this was actually an event that wasn't just a little bit of some water. So I called the. The management company, who, by the way, is a really nice guy. And we're all. All of us sometimes are dealing with people, management companies, homeowners that are really nice people when we first meet him. And so he was a really, really nice guy. First thing he did is that he called up the owner, who. The owner ended up calling up the builder. And then they got somebody out there right away, and so they brought out this restoration company. And the guy comes in to the house and I take him upstairs and he goes, okay, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go out and get a fan and I'm going to put a in the room. I go, no, you're not. He goes, what do you mean? I said, here's what I need you to do, right? I need you to follow proper protocol, because what happened here is, is that that particular event that happened is actually a category two water event. And you're a restoration company. I'm sure you understand what I'm saying. And it's based on a IRCRC guideline. And what you should be doing is isolating the area first. He goes, no, that's just way overkill. I go, what do you mean, overkill? That's what you should be doing. So I had to fight with this guy, right, who basically was the restoration guy, to set up the stage of actually setting up a proper barrier. And then he wants to bring in a fan. I said, no, you're not bringing in a fan. I don't want you blowing that stuff all over the place. Because essentially, if he brought a fan in, what is he doing? He's just blowing things everywhere, right? I need you to isolate the area and then go get a dehumidifier and let's put the dehumidifier in there. And then I need you to take out the flooring. He goes, I don't need to take out the flooring. I go, yes, you do. You have to take out the flooring so that you can dry the area properly. So we were going back and forth, and finally he goes out to the car. He must have Called his supervisor and he said, okay, take out some of the flooring. So he ends up taking out some of the flooring, but he only took out, like, a quarter of the area of the flooring that was there. And Brian, you can clearly see that the subfloor underneath the flooring had a major stain in it, right? And I said to the guy, you need to take out the rest of the floor. He goes, no, I don't need to do that. I'm not going to do that. So we went back and forth. He ended up leaving. I called up my. The management company. I told him what was going on. And I explained to these guys. I said, guys, you have to understand something. I've been doing this for over 20 years. There's certain guidelines that need to be followed to backtrack. When I was basically looking to rent the house, I met the owner of the company. I told him what I did for a living, and I told him the type of way that we live and how we like to live a healthy life and we take care of the place like it's our own place. And the guy loved the idea that I was going to be there to take care of his place. So, in essence, he was okay with me doing whatever I needed to do to take care of his home. But what happened was, is that when we went ahead and started to push to get things done the right way, things started to change with the owner of the home because he didn't want to get in a situation where he wanted. He felt like I was burning bridges with the builder because the builder was saying that you didn't need to do what I was suggesting to do. And I was explaining to him that there's no way that this could be dried appropriately if you still have building material that's overlaying where water has actually gone towards, right? So you gotta lift up that floor and the baseboards around there. Finally, these guys ended up doing that. The last thing that I wanted these guys to do was to clean and sanitize the area because the sanitization of it's really important because it prohibits any type of bacteria growth when you're dealing in a water event. The true primary colonizer in a water event, it's not mold, it's actually bacteria. Bacteria can grow within hours, right? So I'm concerned about the bacteria and the growth of that. And if it's not dried properly, then there's going to be a mold problem. So I was able to get them to at least take out the flooring, take out the baseboards. But the last thing that I wanted these guys to do once it was all said and done was, was to clean and sanitize that area. And if you looked at it, you could clearly see that there was residual stuff all over the place with the. From the. From the water, right? And so it absolutely needed to be cleaned and sanitized. But the builder was saying, look, you don't need to do that. And the guy that came out, who was the guy that was the one that was giving me a hard time, was telling me that, look, you're way over the top. You're making things difficult. We don't need to do that. And I said, well, what kind of guidelines do you guys follow? He goes, we follow the ircrc. I go, you do? And he pulls out of his. Of his wallet an IRCRC card that says that he was certified. And I said, I was flabbergasted. I go, wait a second. You're. You're certified with the IRCRC and yet you're not following their guidelines to.

To follow?

I said, that doesn't make any sense to me. I said, you should know better. You should know that if you've been certified, you've been trained, you've been tested, you should know what these guidelines are, and you should be following these guidelines appropriately. He goes, now you're just being way over the top, and I'm not doing that. And so we were going back and forth, back and forth. And finally what happened was, is that the owner said to me in a email, he said, look, I don't want to burn any bridges. All I want to do is I want to get this thing done, I want to get it over with, and I want to be able to move on. He said, we need to have this builder for any other issues that come down the road. And I said, but you don't understand. I'm trying to help you take care of your home and not have any problems down the road. It doesn't make sense that you don't want these guys to clean it the appropriate way. He said, well, these guys are telling me that you don't need to do it. And they're saying that it's just something that's over the top. And I said, wait a second. The builder's never been here, hasn't seen the area, doesn't understand the proper protocol. He's listening to a guy that's been trained, but it's not following protocol. That doesn't make any sense to me. So I ended up doing this. I put together with Betsy, we put together this very elaborate email that shows all the pictures of all the areas of all the damage that was there and how much it needed to be cleaned. And I actually outlined the IRCRC definition for category two. And in that definition, it talks about the backflow and water loss from a washing machine. And then it shows this is the appropriate protocol. And it talks about the thing that you need to do is to clean and sanitize the area. So I sent that to him and I get a note back from the management company stating, look, they're not going to do it. If you want to do this, you're going to have to do this yourself. You're going to have to do it on your own dime. And I said, wow, that's just amazing to me. I was just really disappointed in the way that the owner of the home was actually taking that position because they said that, you know what, they sent it to us in writing. Well, wait a minute. I sent you a very elaborate thing in writing. And doesn't my years of experience have any type of substance in terms of what I'm recommending here? Apparently not. So the next day I got this. I get up and I put a phone call into the management company and I said, I got your response and I. And I understand where your position is and how you want to handle this. So here's what's going to come down right now. I'm going to bring in somebody to do a proper cleaning and we're going to get it clean and sanitized in the way that it needs to be done. However, there's going to be a cost involved. And here's what's going to happen. I'm taking that cost and I'm. And I'm taking it off my rent, and it's coming off the rent. And you could tell the owner that if he doesn't like it, let him evict me because this is how it's going to be done. There's no way that I'm going to surrender to people that don't understand what they're doing. I said, the builder hasn't even been out here. He goes, well, hold on, let me call you back. So the guy calls me back and says, I got to tell you something. The owner's not happy. I go, what? He's not happy? Well, let me tell you about how I feel. He goes, hold on, I got to call you back. So he calls me back and he says, look, I'm going to have the builder come out and we're going to take a look at the area. I said, great, bring it out. That's all I ever wanted, was to have a conversation with the builder. So the builder comes out, and he basically comes through the front door, and I introduce myself to him. I tell him, you know what I've been doing and the amount of years that I've been doing it. And I said, listen, I really appreciate you coming out here. And I got to tell you, the way that you guys have been approaching this, you're not really following proper guidelines, proper protocols. He goes, well, your protocols are different from my protocols. I go, really? What are your protocols? He goes to the ircrc. I'll go, really? All right, I'll tell you what. I have the book upstairs. Let's go sit down. And you and I will go through the book and we're going to look at what those guidelines are. He goes, all right, man, you don't really need to do that. I go, so are you telling me that we're going to have you come in here and you're going to go ahead and do what you need to do in terms of cleaning and sanitizing? Yeah, we'll go ahead and we'll do that. I said, thank you for doing that. I really appreciate you doing that. One other thing I want to say to you. You got a guy that's walking around, he's carrying an IRCRC card saying that he's been fully certified, but yet the guy's not following proper guidelines. I go, to me, that's negligence that he's doing that, right? He's putting you guys at risk. You need to put that guy in check. So he was very cool about it. We ended up being able to get it done in the manner that we needed to get done. The moral of the story is this, right? Number one, there was no way that I was going to surrender in good conscience. There's no way that I'm going to surrender to people that really don't understand what is the proper procedure. Sometimes you need to be a little bit more firm and a little forceful in the way that you're going to be doing certain things and have the right people around you that can help and assist you with that. Me, I obviously didn't need that because I have the experience. But you can always come to companies like us to be able to support you for any type of issues, such as the ones that I went through. But I thought about this and I said, listen, because it was exhausting. Brian. It was exhausting doing the things that I needed to do. And I said, if I'm having this problem, what would other clients like that we deal with? Wouldn't they have the similar problem? And how many people would surrender to these guys and really let it be the way it is? And I know that the work that we do and the people that we work for, this is what happens. This is the reason why people get sick, because companies are out there, they're not doing it in the manner that they need to do it. And what we need to do is that we need to stick up for ourselves and push forward and do the things that. That we want them to do, but in a manner, in a way that we do it where we're not creating a lot of.

Condensation or anything that. Where people were difficulties or being really difficult about it. But do it in a professional way. But be firm about what you're trying to accomplish there. Yeah, that's the moral of that story, is to really don't surrender, move forward and do what you can do to help by yourself in a better situation.

Yeah, I mean, I. I've gone through that. Not that exact situation, but my own things with landlords. And the persistence ultimately does give you a much higher chance of it paying off. Right. Because at some point people are just like, fine, whatever. Just do whatever you can to shut this person up. Right. Especially if you're validated in what you're saying. There's a couple of things throughout this that I want to highlight for folks just to make sure that we're pulling it out. The first thing is that you talked about something called water categories. I want to be really clear on, like, why that's important. You didn't mention mold once, except maybe in passing. Like, then mold can maybe happen. Right? Yeah. This is Mold Finders Radio, and we Inspect is primarily known as a mold inspection company. And there was a big water loss. And of course, we all know that mold can grow, but that was not the primary leverage point lever that you pulled on. The lever that you pulled on was something that's called category of water. Water categories. Water categories actually aren't really mold related. They're more bacteria related. Right. And so you were talking about clean water, gray water, black water. So just to define that a little bit more for everybody to. To kind of get the context around this, you already said clean water, which is category one is basically water that's straight from a supply line. It hasn't touched anything. Right. So it's coming out of There, it's completely clean. It's like, you know, you turn water in a faucet and it's coming out of the faucet, right? Like, that's technically your clean water. Right. Your gray water is kind of this middle category. Now, the thing about water categories is that the category of water can get over time, right? So one thing to be really careful of, if as we explain these categories more, because these. There's the reason I want to dive in the category thing a little bit, is because this is your leverage, this is your lever you can pull to get things to happen with management companies and things like that. Because as you said, it is specifically written in the guidebooks that these water categories have to be handled a certain way. Mold stuff is not as clear in certain guidebooks that people will follow. And so it makes it a lot more difficult to push on mold for people to feel obligated to have to do something. But the bacteria water category thing is way more defined on how you have to handle it. And so if you lean on water category as your leverage point when you're talking to people, it's going to allow the process to move a lot forward. Like, you didn't once say, man, there's going to be mold growing under the floor, so you have to take the floor off. You didn't say that, even though we all know that's going to be true. But you didn't say the floor has to come off because there's mold under there. They're going to be like, oh, no, there's not. There's lumber. Mold. Mold is a mold. Blah, blah, blah, right? Like, no, that's not going to happen. You're going to say, this has to come off for proper drying per the guidelines of how you handle categories of water, right? And so that gives you much, much more leverage. And so when you're talking about a water loss, you have a leak, you have something, you have something that goes on. You know, it may start as clean water. Now, what you said is that as soon as it hits a substrate, it immediately turns into gray water. So to define that a little bit more, it's, you know, think about, like, when water gets into a wall cavity. Like, you know, not a lot of us have seen behind a wall. Some of us have. It is gross back there. There's all kinds of crap sitting back there. There's dead bugs. There's rodent droppings, there's urine. There's all. There's dirt. There's all kinds of stuff back there. And as soon as water hits any of that, it becomes contaminated. And that's what gray water means, right? So as soon as you have moisture that gets under a surface or a substrate, which is exactly what happened, right? Got under the floor, it got, you know, into the walls that were adjacent, it's immediately category two now. Immediately category two. So the first thing, if anyone's listening to this and you try to go down the water category route and the person who you're talking says, oh, that's category one water. You're like, no, it's not. It was category one water when it was sitting on top of my floor. It is now category 2 water that it's over here by the wall and it's over here under the floor. Like that's it. Now you have to start addressing it properly, right? So that part is really, really important. And once you get into the water categories, it's a lot easier. First off, insurance companies recognize water categories, right? They don't recognize mold, they won't tell, like, here's your mold rider, you get five grand and then be done with you. Right? Water categories is how you get insurance to have a higher probability to cover something, right? So it's more recognized when you're talking water category bacteria than it is talking mold. So I really want to like hammer that point in because I think that that piece is really important. And you didn't mention mold like barely ever in that whole conversation because, you know, if I say that it's over, right? But if I lean into water categories and I could go back to the books and show them how it's written, then I have leverage, right? And so that was the one thing.

That's right.

The other thing that you did really well, which I also did every single time that I had an issue. Great. Documentation is important, right? You can have phone calls all day and then all of a sudden they're going to say, you didn't tell me that you never called me, that this never happened, blah, blah, blah. There's no proof of a phone call, right? So something that I always did was if there was a phone call, there was a media follow up via email recapping our phone call. Like I would send it and I would basically, at the bottom I'd be like, if you, if you disagree with anything that's here, please respond right now. Something comes up and I'm like, well, you never replied. I told you to reply if you had a problem. You never replied. So you must have assumed it was, it was correct what we said right now You've got a timestamp log, text messages don't count, phone calls don't count. So anyone who's worrying about documenting, you have to take the time to document. And you know what that's going to do? That is going to subconsciously let them know that you're preparing yourself for a legal case. You're not threatening legal cases. You don't want to necessarily do that, right? That's like a last ditch effort. But when you start getting emails from people that are documenting stuff that's going on, you know what they're doing, you know, they're getting it all documented just in case they have to go to legal. And as somebody who's a property owner or property manager, like that's the last that you don't want to deal with that, right? So you're subconsciously telling them, like, listen, I'm not putting up with this, I'm documenting everything and I'm just kind of putting you on like subconscious notice that there's the possibility of this, right? And a lot of times that's enough to get someone to start responding to you. That's enough to get someone to take some action, right? Because they're just like, ah, I see where this is going. I don't want this to go there, right? So that part's really important. And then you leaned on that later. You're like, well, I sent this whole write up thing that showed passages and showed this and showed photos and showed this, that or the other, right? So you now have documentation, which gives you more leverage. And it doesn't allow for someone to say, well, you didn't say that. You never told me that that didn't come because I guarantee you that's what they would have done, right? If you didn't do that, then the last thing, which not everybody's gonna have this, but I just like have to call because you called me like the night after this happened. Literally, Mark calls me, he's like, brian, you're gonna love what just happened.

So he tells me this entire story that he just shared here. And then he gets to the point where I invited the guy up to my office to read him the specific passages on how to properly. That's your kid.

The guy's like, nah, it's fine, I'll just handle it. So not everybody may have that. However, if you get an outside consultant, you're working with us and something happens down the road or whatever, like we have those books, we know where certain things are. Like I know there are certain Pages in the IRCS 520 that specifically talk about how you have to surface test areas specific instead of air testing for. For poster mediation. Like, it's literally written in there. Like, there's. It's so funny, you know, because when I was first learning through you, and then I would. We'd go somewhere and I'd hear, Sir, I'd hear from a client how some other inspector came in and was like, blah, you don't have to do any of this. Or like, even your story, where, like, they come in and they're like, oh, you're way over the top. I used to think. And I used to think that, like, we somehow figured out something that no one has ever figured out before. I'm like, oh, my God, how does nobody know? I was like, how did. How did you and Steve just create this entire process of how to do something, like, out of the blue? Like, how did you do this? Yeah. And then all of a sudden you start reading the books and you're like, oh, it's like literally all written here. Like, sure, we've. We've maybe expanded on some things and like, whatever. But, like, the foundation is basically like the people who sat down in the. At the beginning of the. The time of the development of this books, they actually thought it through pretty well, actually.

Nobody reads them and nobody cares about what they say. And because there's no federal regulation or state regulation and there's no fines and there's no consequences for doing things the wrong way, then you just say, oh, we'll do it easier, we'll do it cheaper. And now all of a sudden it turns and think, well, most people do it the easy way. So now this is just how it's done. And now, you know, us doing it the way that we did, which at the beginning I thought was like this thing that no one had ever even heard of before, which now it feels that way kind of, because nobody does it that way. But, like, when you go back and you actually read, like, you know, the. The guidebooks and the standards, a lot of it is there. And we've made tweaks on, like, process a little. You know what? We'd like to expand on this or Trink, but, like, the foundation is all there. It's not like it was all made up. And so, like, for everyone listening, you have a couple key guidebooks for water losses, which is not mold, but if you're talking water categories, category water, which we talked about, it's actually a different book. It's called the IICRC S500. This is that book. That book is specifically for water loss. Okay. Then you have the IICRC S520. That is the book that's tied towards microbial mold issues. What's interesting is in the 500, it talks about how quickly you have to dry things and sort of the process. And there's a part point in the 500 where it says, if you suspect that there might be a mold problem, refer to the 520. Like, stop here, go to the 520. Yet all of these companies that are like your emergency response water companies, never, ever, ever go to the 520. And what the 520 would require is that their job would stop and they would have to bring in a mold inspector. And the mold inspector had to come through and do testing, this, that or the other. And it would throw a whole cog in their process. It would delay everything. It would. Whatever, whatever. And it never, ever happens. And what's interesting is the way that it's worded. I'm going to paraphrase it, but it's like if you suspect a mold problem, you refer to 520. Right. Well, earlier it talks about, like, the timing and like, kind of how quickly things need to be dried and like that. Right. And so, you know, you know, mark. Right. That 24 to 48 hours you can have mold that can start growing. Okay. So if that's truly the case, which it is, that's the truth. Right. And let's say it's Monday. Let's say your washer happened on Monday. Right. And let's just say they brought in, you know, the drying company and it just kind of happened like it normally does for folks. Let's say you don't get them there on Monday. Let's say it happened Monday morning and they were booked. It happened at 10am Monday morning. They can't get there until the afternoon on Tuesday. Well, that's already been 24 hours. And then add like maybe another four hours because it's the afternoon. You're already at 28 to 30 hours. You already suspect mold, the act. So the process has to stop and it has to go to the 520. But not one, not one water restoration company I would put everything on it would ever do that. They would never come in and say that. You have to do that. They would come in the next day. Oh, we're going to dry everything. Oh, you don't have to remove the floor here. We're going to put a fan in here. All we're going to do this, they're immediately.

Diverting from their industry standard. Immediately. It's like that plain. That plain black and white. And it's just some. That's just something that people don't understand, right? Because nobody knows. Well, and it's.

It's all, you know, Brian, it's all being driven by the people that are being brought in by them. Like the builder, right? The builder was directing what these guys should do, right? And so. And even the builder said, look, I'm not going to spend money on something that doesn't need to be done. I go, but I'm not asking you to spend money on something that doesn't need to be done. I'm asking you to do what is appropriate to be done based on industry standards. That's all I'm asking you to do. And he goes, I get it. So what's interesting is the guys that came in to do the cleanup work, to clean and sanitize, they go, man, that place needed it. That needed to be cleaned and sanitized, and they couldn't believe that they refused to do it. I said, would you please tell your boss that that's exactly what was going on here, that it needed to be done. He goes, yeah, we will. So, I mean, and the guys that came in subsequent to this other guy were really, really key guys. Even a flooring guy that came back in said, you mean to tell me they wouldn't want it? They didn't want to clean and sanitize? You're supposed to do that. Even a flooring guy knew that you were supposed to do that, right? So my. My point is, is that this is all about money. It's all about really people trying to save on something that is going to cost them extra dollars in their budget. And we, as people, we just need to be persistent. I mean, the one thing that I remember from the manager of this management company, he said to me, we've never met anybody as rigorous as you. They go, I've never seen anybody. It's so persistent. And you just wouldn't stop. And I said, I can't in good conscience surrender to people that are not abiding by what they're supposed to be doing. And when I come from an industry where I help people every day that are sick, and I know that it's coming from their homes, because in many cases, it's about contractors that are not doing the right thing, putting them in harm's way. I have to basically force forward and do whatever I can to make sure that the point is taken that you have to do things the right way. And like I said earlier, I was thinking about my clients and how difficult it's probably going to be for clients to get into a situation like that, because many of them will surrender, many of them will back off because they just don't have the knowledge or the wherewithal. And sometimes you have to be able to get the information that you need, be more empowered. And when you do have that, please don't let somebody take advantage of you. Take the appropriate steps. Be more persistent. Do it in a professional way. You can be persistent. You can be firm. Just don't give up. Don't surrender.

100%. Well, thanks for coming on.

That's cool. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. This was fun.

We need to do this more often. It's only taken four years and 170plus episodes to get the.

To get the.

The mentor on the show. It's 100% my fault.

Okay. No, no problem. I'm always. I'm always willing to do whatever we can. This is enjoyable. And, you know, I want to thank you guys again for building what you've built so far. I'm really excited about what we're doing and, you know, let's continue to move forward and help people and really do what we can to. To make their lives much better.

All right. That's what we're doing.

All right.

All right. All right. Thanks, everyone. See you next time.

Thank you. Take care. Bye. Bye.

So that's it for today's show, everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed the show, please take a moment and subscribe and give a rating wherever you get your pop podcasts. It'll help spread the word to those who really need it the most.