29: Part 2 - ERMI vs... EMMA? / High ERMI, No Sources Found... What does that mean?

Hello again, everyone, and welcome to today's show. If you're one of the 130 million people that are dealing with Sirs Lyme disease, autoimmune disease, or other conditions that are impacted by mold on a daily basis, and you need to learn how to eliminate that exposure, then you're in the right place. My name is Brian Carr, and you're listening to Mold Finders Radio.

Hey, everyone. So today is going to be a continuation from yesterday where we talked about Ermie versus hurts me. And so I was going to expand on that and kind of answer a question that was around that that I had yesterday. And then after I posted the episode, I was looking on Instagram and someone asked, well, what about Ermie versus Emma? And I was like, oh, yeah, I should talk about that, too, because it's a newer sampling panel. It's been out maybe a couple years now at this point, from Real Time Labs. Real Time Labs is the lab that we use for environmental mycotoxin testing. They're also a lab that runs a lot of clinical mycotoxin testing. And so they basically are trying to put together some of the molds that produce some of the mycotoxins on their panels and basically run a sampling set that shows some of the molds that produce those toxins and then showing if the toxins are there. So trying to tie the mold type to the toxin type is the idea behind the testing method.

So the panel on the Emma is nine molds, and then it also tests for Candida, which, if any of you are familiar, Candida is like a yeast. But you can have, like, a Candida overgrowth in your body, and sometimes you're more susceptible to it when you have a mold issue. So it's actually pretty cool that Candida's on that panel. I think it's a pretty neat thing that's on there.

So all of that said, though, when you look at the mycotoxin panel that they have, they're basically testing for four mycotoxin groups. I think there's 12 total mycotoxins in that. I might be one or two off, but.

They lump them into four groups. So it's aflatoxin, otrotoxin, a tricothosine group, and gliotoxin derivative. Those are the four toxins that they test for.

And so then they're kind of correlating molds to those toxins. Well, the thing is, a lot of us out there at the direction of our doctors, are actually running our clinical mycotoxin Testing through different labs. Right. It's not all running through real time labs.

The other kind of big lab out there is Great Plains. And I think Vibrant is another lab that does some mycotoxin testing.

With all the different labs. They have different panels of mycotoxins. I ran mine personally through Great Plains and there are mycotoxins that are picked up on that list that I have that would not have shown up if I ran my tests through real time labs, because they don't test for those. Right. So I had mentioned before, I have three different mycotoxins in my body. Well, two of the mycotoxins that I tested positive for from the Great Plains test were not on the real time test. So if I just ran the real time test, I might have only had one, you know, and. And there's actually doctors out there that recommend that you do both of them. Right. So I was told by a doctor friend of mine that Dr. Neal Nathan, who's a really well respected.

Practitioner out there, he wrote the book Toxic. He actually wants his clients to run both panels, right, because he wants to see. Because there's some stuff on the real time lab that Great Plains doesn't have, and there's some times on the Great Plains lab that real time doesn't have. So he wants to look at both of them. So the reason I tell you all this is because again, we're talking about the mold types that are being picked up on these samples. So the EMMA testing method is the same method as dust collection is PCR analysis, which is DNA analysis. So it's the same thing that you're getting on an ERMI in terms of the process of the analysis. It's just the panel is smaller. So Again, on the ERMI you have 36 molds, 26 are water damage, 10 are more common molds that were found indoors. So on the ERMI panel you have 36, on the Hertzme 2 panel you have five. And on the Emma panel you have nine, plus Candida. Right. So we're looking at all these and they have different panels and molds. Here's my thought process on the whole thing. I would rather have more molds on the panel, right? And I would rather have something that has a little longer history in terms of the number of samples that have been collected as well. So any kinks could get worked out. I'm not saying there's problems with any of these other sampling methods. I'm just saying that I know that first off, the ERMI was based on a Large national study. And there was already a bunch of samples that came behind that to get it out. Now, while I've talked about the scoring system on how that's not really what we're looking at, it gives me some sort of baseline when I'm looking at individual mold to molds that they ran across this whole study looking at, you know, the EMMA doesn't really have that baseline. And we've actually created our own baseline because of the homes that we go into. And this is the study that we've been running internally with over 500 of these now. But regardless, it's just an extra piece that helps me to look at something. So from a preference point in terms of interpretation, I think it's important because when we look at these numbers, it's like, well, what do these numbers mean? And so we need to have some way to interpret them. And Ermie tried to do that with a score. So people really hung their hat on the score. And I talked in the last episode why you can't really just use the score. But at least having the mold to mold data from throughout the study. Study is something to reference to. And then over time, we've been able to build our own reference point just from all the samples that we do. But take that out of the equation. Let's just take out the comparison stuff out of the equation. And what do these numbers mean? And all of that stuff, just take that out and we just look straight at the number of moles that are there. So for me, for example, one of the mycotoxins that I'm dealing with is called mycophenolic acid.

It was detected on the Great Plains mycotoxin test, like I mentioned. And it's like an immune suppressor. A version of this is given to people when they're getting organ transplants to suppress their immune system so the other organs don't reject it. Right? So if you think of that's why it's being used, the last thing you want is that to just be in your body doing that all the time, right? And so that's one of the toxins that I'm dealing with. And.

The panels of molds in each of these three different testing methods that we talked about. Ermi, Hertzmet 2, Emma, only one of them actually shows the mold that produces it, which is Penicillium brevicompactum. And that is in the ERMI panel. So if I was just running a Hertzmet 2 or if I was just running an Emma, then I wouldn't see that mold if it was in the house and it was present. And that's a problem. Right. The whole point of this is to try to figure that stuff out and understand if expanding exposures coming from the environment or what's happening, you know. So that's my two cents on Ermie versus Emma. Right. It's kind of the same as Ermie versus hurts me too. It's. There's a larger panel on the ermi. It's showing us more in terms of what our exposure looks like. And I would rather have that information. Again, you can pull all. Well, I'm going to say all the molds. You can pull most of the molds on the EMMA report out from the ermi. There's a couple that are not on there, but for the most part you can get all of them, except it looks like three. Right. So of the 10 things that you can test for, it looks like you could get seven of those on the ERMI panel. So you're getting a good overlay from the ERMI panel on those. The Hertzme 2 is completely on the ERMI panel and then the ERMI panel is giving you a larger data set to look at. So, you know, personally, I would rather run the ERMI and then I would just run a separate mycotoxin. So test in the house. This is exactly what I do in field. I run an ERMI and then I run a separate mycotoxin test which runs through real time. And so I'm getting the same mycotoxin panel that you would get in the Emma, except I'm getting a larger panel on the mold front. And for me, that is. It's the most comprehensive look that I could get at what's going on. And that's what I'm looking for when I put all these together.

Alright, so let's get back to this question I was talking about. So this one came in. This came in a little while ago. It was on Instagram. So here's the question. So we ran an ermi. We found multiple types of molds. The ermi score was 10. The Hertzme 2 score was 22. But the inspectors only found two types of molds with air samples and swabs. Not sure if we need to remediate or move. Okay. So I mean, I'll tell you this up front. If, if you're looking at a Hertz me of 22, it's a pretty good indicator that there is something going on. Again, there's only five molds on that panel. Two of them are stachybotrys and catomium. Odds are one of those is probably elevated. If you're looking at this Hertzme 2 panel. And so, you know, that can. That can tell you that there's maybe something going on. You know, I don't have, obviously, all the information. I'm not seeing all the individual molds. So we just talked about how important it is to see all the molds. You can't totally rely on scores. And then. And that's absolutely true. So I'm just going to make the assumption here that looking at these results, that they are, you know, showing that there's a problem, which is what I suspect from looking at both of these. So we're going to roll with that. And so if we know that these dust tests that we did are showing problems, and then she's saying inspectors only came in and found two types of molds with air samples and swabs, honestly, it's because they're. They don't know what they're doing. Right. These. These dust tests are showing us that there's problems. Okay. And so. So most likely what's happening here is that they probably just came in and did air samples in the middle of rooms, and that's going to be a problem because you're a lot of times going to get a false negative like that. Now, when it comes with swabs, it really depends on where they were swabbing. Right. But the whole crux of this is that it's not only about the testing, it's about the inspection process. Okay? So if we look at what the Ermi test or even the Hertzme 2, if you're running that at what the goal of that test is, the goal of that test is not to find where the mold is coming from. The goal of that test is to understand basically what is moving throughout your house, what is settling on the surfaces in your house, and therefore, what is getting popped up into your breathing zone and what you're being exposed to, that's what the point of those tests are. So it's not going to help us show source, which means if you see something that shows that there's a problem, then you really have to find someone who's going to figure out where the sources are. And this is the big problem. Right. So, you know, if. If I went into a house that had a Herzomy of A22 and I only walked out and found two mold types with air samples and swabs, it would. It would literally mean that I was probably in the house for five minutes and took an air sample and left. Like, I can't even imagine not finding more than that. So the, the key is understanding where to look, how to look, how to test in those different areas. There's, there's a lot about, about this little sentence of only found two types with errors and swabs. I could talk literally for hours about this, but here's, here's kind of the bullet points. One, the inspection is so important. You have to find source. In order to find source, you have to be testing as close to the suspected area of mole growth as possible. So if you're doing air samples, it's an air sample inside of a wall, it's an air sample inside of a cabinet that has water damage, it's an air sample inside of a ceiling where you're seeing staining or water damage, right? It's actually getting in behind the walls, above the ceilings and into the cabinetry and trying to find the hidden locations. And you can use air testing for all that, but you, you have to do it by actually putting an adapter on the air pump and putting a tube into the wall and actually testing inside and behind the wall. I mean, you could actually show slighter or even more elevations if you're testing without the tube in the wall. But you're putting the pump like right next to the wall and banging on the wall. Like that would be even better than doing an air sample in the middle of a room because you have to get as close as you can. Think of it this way, like, and I think I've used this analogy before, but if someone is cooking in your kitchen and that's the source of the smell that is being made from their cooking, if you're in the kitchen, you're going to smell it and be like, oh man, this smells really good. Right? But let's say you're in a two story house and you're upstairs, you're on the other side of the house, you're not going to smell what's being cooked, right? Because you're further away, eventually it will get to you, but the concentration of the smell will typically be less and so take a lot longer to get to you, right? So if you use that same concept, the closer you are to source, the more the higher the concentration is going to be. So the further away you go, the lower the concentration is going to be and you're not going to notice it as much. So in that house, you might be upstairs, you might not smell the cooking in the kitchen at all. Right. It's very, very possible. You don't smell it at all. Then as you come out of your room and you start walking downstairs, you're like, whoa, man, something smells really good. And then you go to the kitchen and find out that, you know, your wife or your husband or your mom or whatever has been cooking for hours or something, you know? And it's kind of the same idea. If we're. If. If the mold source is in the kitchen, let's say in this example, and we're upstairs in the room across the house, doing an air sample, that's the equivalent of doing an air sample in the middle of the room and having a hidden mold source in a wall five feet away. That's what the equivalent of that is. Okay. So if they're not going through and spending a lot of time identifying these cues of water damage and trying to figure out where potential hidden mold is. Right. Most times you can't see mold. This is the thing. And so the problem with a lot of inspectors is they. They come in, and if they're not visibly seeing anything, then they're telling you that it's okay. Basically, they're saying, if I don't see mold and if I put a moisture meter up against this wall and it's dry, then there's no mold problem. When the reality is that can't be further from the truth. Right. So if mold grew behind a wall and then the water dried out, the mold doesn't just magically disappear. It stays there. Right. It stays there the same way that, like, if a weed grew in your grass.

Or if you just had grass growing outside and then you stopped watering it and all of your grass that was green turns yellow. Right. The grass doesn't just disappear. And you only see dirt now. Right. The grass is still there. It's just really dry, and it's kind of d. But it's still there. And that's the same thing that happens with mold behind a wall or in a ceiling or anywhere that moisture had gotten to it that created a growth problem, and then the moisture went away. The colony still exists. So the key thing to look for is water damage. And anywhere that there's water damage, even if it's water damage from, like, 10 years ago, you need to be testing that stuff because there could be hidden problems back there that continue to impact the living space. And so that is really the big issue here. And if we're. If we know that in the dust testing, we're finding multiple species of molds and we're seeing problems. There is a problem. Okay. There's something going on now. There are a couple, you know, there's. There's a couple speed bumps that could get thrown in this. Let's say that your house was recently renovated. And so there was, you know, old bathrooms and old kitchens that got demoed and removed and stuff. And maybe there's water damage and all of that, and then they ripped all of it out. And if they did that, they create this, like, massive microbiological explosion. Explosion. It's like a, you know, like a nuclear bomb basically went off in your house of mold particles. And then, you know, they. They put up new drywall and they redo the bathrooms and the bedrooms, and then you can't see the water damage. Right. Because they've covered it all up. And that can happen. If that's happened recently for you, and you're doing an ermi test in the house, you're seeing a bunch of water damage, molds in the test, then what it probably means is that there was mold issues. There were, excuse me, mold issues that they ripped out and disturbed. And. And now there's really not a way for us to find it anymore. Because the truth is, is that when people are doing demo like that, they're not remediating the structural surfaces afterwards. They're ripping out the drywall, ripping out the shower, ripping out the floors, and then they're just putting new stuff up, right? So if mold was growing on the framing or underneath the floors or behind the showers, they're not properly remediating. And surface cleaning all that stuff like we talked about in previous episodes, they're probably just getting the bulk of the debris out of there and then just covering it all back up. So this is why, like, when I'm looking for new houses, renovated houses is off the list because it's almost worse than an older house. Because at least in an older house, I could go through and I can see where all the water damage happened. And then I can say, okay, I'm going to. I'm going to gut all this or I'm going to remediate all this. Right. If I had the means to do that. But when you're in a renovated house, it's. You're walking in blind, all the evidence is gone. Think about you trying to be a detective and somebody, you know, wiped all the fingerprints out of the. Out of the, you know, apartment where the crime happened, and you really have nothing to go on, and. And it ends up being a cold case. Like, that's kind of what happens. And so, you know, if that's the case and that's a tougher situation, but if not, it just really means that the inspectors didn't go through and figure out where the potential sources are and then do a number of tests. I'll tell you that in most houses I go into.

You know, ERMI scores and again, you know, you can't hinge on the score. But that's all I have to look at here, right? URME scores of around 10 are pretty common. You know, sometimes they're higher, sometimes they're a little lower. But I see that Pretty common Hertzmetor score 22 is really high. I don't really see that super often. So, you know, if I'm looking at this, I know that something has happened at some point. And if I go into a house that has numbers like this, I'm usually finding honestly, guys like anywhere between like 15 and 30 potential source areas of mold growth. Honestly, like, it's not even an exaggeration. I just did an appointment last week where I was there from 11am until 9pm I was there for 10 hours and found 30 hidden potential areas of mole growth. And I was there the whole time going through the house and then the last portion, the last several hours doing all the testing. And so that's the, that's the possibility. I'm saying that's always going to be the issue. But you know, these types of tests are telling to show what's going on in the environment. The same way a doctor runs a test on you clinically and they're like, oh man, I looked at this test and I think that you have a mole problem, right? Like maybe that's how you even got down to this road. That's a lot of times how people find, find me is their doctor runs tests and says, oh, I think you have mold issues. You need to go figure out where that is. Well, the ERMI test and the Hertz me test for me, you know, more so the URMI like I've talked about as my preference, that is the same type of test for me. If I run this test. And I was like, oh man, there's something going on here. Now we got to go find it, right? It's just, it's just kind of going further down the ladder, if that makes sense. So what I would tell you is, so the end of this question was not sure if we need to remediate or move. That was the end of this question. Well, the answer is that I feel pretty confident there's remediation that's needed. It's just a matter of where and how much. And I have no idea unless I see what's going on. And we can actually through the house ourselves. But I feel pretty confident in saying that there are some problems here that need to be remediated. So.

You know, that, that, that's my two cents. I think that's kind of all that I can give you in terms of advice without seeing anything. But at least this helps you try to understand the thought process and how all of this works.

So that's it for today's show, everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed the show, please take a moment and subscribe and give a rating wherever you get your podcast. It'll help spread the word to those who really need it the most.

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