34: Q&A - Symptoms after HVAC cleaning / Mold growing on your stuff / Wall cavity testing

Hello again, everyone, and welcome to today's show. If you're one of the 130 million people that are dealing with Sirs Lyme disease, autoimmune disease, or other conditions that are impacted by mold on a daily basis, and you need to learn how to eliminate that exposure, then you're in the right place. My name is Brian Carr, and you're listening to Mold Finders Radio.

Hey, everyone. So yesterday I put out a story where I was gonna do some Q and A this week, and I got a bunch of responses, which was pretty cool. I actually think I might do, like, the whole week of Q and A episodes. Maybe I'll see how these go. But there's a lot here to choose from, and there's a lot of good questions that I think would help people. So that's maybe my plan for the rest of the week. I'm going to start here with the first question here. Says, after an air conditioning unit on the roof of my condo was cleaned, we're having horrible symptoms. Why?

So I can't tell you exactly what's happening because I don't know, you know, especially on the medical front. But here is what happens in H Vac systems. I've had clients who've had similar things that goes on. I talked about how H Vac systems were cleaned a couple episodes ago, but here's my guess. So when they clean your air conditioning system, there's two pieces that they clean. One is the. The air handler unit, which is where all the duct, like kind of the main mechanical unit, all the ducts connect to, and then the other is the ducts. So a lot of times what happens is, like when they clean the ducts, what they're doing is that they're putting in, like, this big sort of brush thing that that's like on a big, long stick kind of. And it goes into the duck line, and that spins around in a circle really fast. And it's meant to disturb all of the dirt and dust that settled in there and try to get it airborne. And then on the other side of the duck line, they'll put a vacuum of some kind, and that is like sucking the air in from what you've disturbed. So basically, you're popping a bunch of dirt and dust up in the air. Then they have a vacuum on the other end, and they're supposed to be sucking it all out. The problem is there's no way that's 100% effective. Like, if you think of it, you have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of feet of Ductwork that run throughout your house. And so when they do that, it's kind of like the easy route of cleaning, because they can't actually reach their arms into the whole system and wipe all of the duct lines. That's really how a duct should be cleaned. It should be wiped. It shouldn't be pushed and blown around and stuff. If you think about what they're actually doing, they're actually disturbing everything that's settled, and they're making it airborne. If you had dirt and dust that had wedged into the grooves of your duct line, if you have flex duct or just things that had settled to the point where they really weren't getting pushed around that much, and then you have this big brush come in that. That pops it all over the place and loosens everything up again. When the vacuum that they put on the other end starts sucking, it doesn't suck everything in. Right. It's not possible to get everything. And so there's. There's residual that's left over after that. And because it's now been loosened, when you turn your air conditioning on now, it's going to blow it out of the duct lines a lot easier. So I've definitely had clients that had similar reactions. And it's. It's indicative that there's something happening in your H vac system. It seems to me that, you know, and it may be a mold thing, it may not be a mold thing. Right. You might have other. You might have insect fragments that are in there. You might have insulation fibers that have gotten stuck in your duct line. There's other things than mold that could technically be happening in there. But H vac systems, they produce moisture in the coil that does the heating and cooling as a result of condensation. And so there is some moisture that can push through the system, and it could create mold growth and bacteria growth in places. And so if you go through the whole thing, you blow it all apart like that, or not, you blow it all apart, but you disturb it all and kind of pop it all up in the air. And then you turn your air conditioner on, it starts blowing everywhere. It's going to come out into space, and you're going to be exposed to it more easily. So, you know, what I would do is I think that the system needs to be tested, to be honest with you. So if you're reacting like that afterwards, there might be something going on in the system.

You know, unfortunately, H Vac contractors, they. They don't really look at stuff that way. You know, they just Go in there and like, does it look dirty or not? It's okay. The other thing I see them do a lot is that they open, like, the coil area, which is again, where that condensation dripping happens. And I've actually had H Vac guys next to me while I do that because for whatever reason, the unit was too complicated for me to figure out how to open. And so I would have the clients actually bring in an H Vac contractor who could open it for me. And then, so I'd come back on a second appointment and I would meet them there, and we both go into the attic or wherever the air conditioner is located. They would open it up for me and they would basically be there while I'm looking at it. And there are so many times that I've seen standing wall water and heavy discoloration and darkness and a bunch of rust and all this other stuff that's in there. And they're like, oh, that's normal.

It's just what happens in these things. Right. So their eye is not necessarily the best eye.

For understanding if there's a contamination issue in there. So it needs to be tested. Here's how I would suggest having it tested. You need to call a local inspector and basically you're going to tell them exactly what to do. Okay. So one, you're going to. They need to open up the air handler unit and they need to open up the coil area. So those things have to get open. If they don't know how to do that, then you're going to have to get an H Vac contractor out to do it for them. Or you could do it yourself if you know how to do it. So that's the first thing. And then you want to do a few different things in there. So basically, I like testing for mold and bacteria in the H Vac systems because you can have enough water where bacteria can grow. At the same time, mold may be able to grow at a lesser amount of water that's in there. So again, if the coil's creating moisture, then it is going to push moisture throughout the system. And then the last thing that the systems could get contaminated just from pulling air in throughout the house. So most times in H Vac systems, I'm not seeing, like, mold growth in them. But if you have other mold sources in your house and the air conditioning system becomes a, you know, it's sucking that all in, it becomes an accumulation point for the fragments and possibly the toxins and different things off the H vac units or, excuse me, from throughout the home, and they settle within the duct lining of the H VAC units. So that could be happening too. So the way that I test the system, I do a swab test, just a regular microscopy swab test, on the coil and the fan blades. So I'll do that in there. If I'm seeing darkness in other places, I'll actually specifically do that. One common place I see that is like, there are. There are sticker labels on the blower fan unit or the blower fan that's inside of that mechanical unit. So if you open the mechanical unit, there's two compartments. There's a blower fan and then there's the coil. Those are the kind of the two compartments, the main compartments that are there. So in the blower fan, that's literally the fan that's spinning around all over, you know, and creating the suction, basically. So there are times where on that fan there is like a sticker, and sometimes a sticker has like, black on it or darkness on it. And so if you see that, I would swab that too, because a lot of times that comes back to be mold. And that's actually like mold growth in the system, which is a different issue than just cross contamination from the house. So you do that, and then on the coil, you actually kind of rub the swab like over the coil, basically, and you can see if there's any growth there. So that's the first thing I do. Then the other thing I do is I actually do testing for. For mold and mycotoxins and bacteria in the system too. So you can do it in the air handler unit, which is the same thing that's open, or you can do it within your duct lines if you want to. But basically you're doing a dust collection sample for all of those. And so you're just kind of collecting dust from inside of the air handler unit or in the ductwork. To do that, you could use. Envirobiomics is a lab that runs for ermi. So they'll do mold testing. They also are able to process endotoxins, which are bacterial toxins. And they also have a sampling that's called actinomycetes and bacteria, which shows like, pathogenic and non pathogenic bacteria, as well as actinomycetes specifically, which are kind of like a bacteria mold hybrid sort of thing. So you could get all that testing done through dust samples. And those three tests can be done on one Swiffer pad that you order from Envirobiomics. So that's one thing you could do. And then the other test that I do in H Vac systems is actually mycotoxin testing. So it's a swab, but it's a dust test. So you go in and collect it the same way you would collect what I just described with the other three dust tests on the Swiffer. You do that with the swab. And the lab we use for that is real time labs. So you could use that. And then you can see what's going on in your H Vac system. But if you're having.

Horrible symptoms after your H Vac was cleaned, it's probably because stuff got disturbed. It's getting moved throughout your house. And so the question is, what's in there? What got disturbed? And what are you being exposed to?

Okay, so the next question we have is from Mrs. Sylvia 000 and it says, I purchased a sofa about a month ago. Now it has mold. How do you clean it effectively? This is a bigger problem. If you have mold growing on your furniture within a month in your place, then there's probably a bigger mold problem going on just than what's going on on your couch.

Furniture doesn't just grow mold for no reason. Right. So if it does.

There'S a couple things that you can maybe think of. If you have it push up directly against a wall, there's a possibility there's moisture in that wa then the sofa is basically acting as a moisture barrier so it can't get through. And then mold grows on the sofa. So that's one thing that could be happening. Another thing is that there could just be enough of a mold issue in multiple places in your home that's going on. And then if your humidity pumps up to, you know, around 60%, you could start getting mold growth on contents and items and belongings in the house. That's a possibility too. You know this question. I know you're talking about your sofa here, but this sounds like a much bigger problem than just, I have a new couch that has some mold on it. The reality is mold should never be growing on stuff in your house. That's the reality. And so if you've had something for a month and mold is growing on it, that's a problem. All right. And when it comes to, like, how do you clean your sofa when it comes to content cleaning? And I had a whole email series that went out on this for those that are on the Mold Finders email list. Which, by the way, side note, if you're interested in getting on that list.

You could Go to my Instagram page and you can click on the link in the bio and click on the first button which says my favorite mold cleaning product. And if you just put in your email address there, I'll actually send you, like, my favorite product for cleaning mold. But also you'll get on my the Mold Finders email list. And I send out probably three to five emails a week that are just all kinds of different things. So today, actually, this morning, I sent out an email. I was actually showing an example of a refrigerator in a kitchen. And I was talking about how refrigerators work and how we need to pull them out from.

Kind of where they live. So there's like a cutout where your refrigerator pushes into how you have to pull them out and look under there. Because I showed actually pictures from a project I did a couple weeks ago or a couple weeks ago last week, a project I did last week where the fridge was dripping under there and there was mold growing on the floor under there. And this common misconception is that, like, you can't have mold in a refrigerator if there's no water line. This fridge didn't have a water line. But the truth is that every refrigerator creates condensation. And so there's going to be moisture created from every single refrigerator. And so you have to be looking at that stuff. Right. So that's an example of an email that I sent out this morning with some photo examples of stuff and some next steps. So, anyways, I went a little off topic. What I was saying is that I actually put out an email series is talking about content cleaning. And the first thing in there is if you have mold that's actually growing on porous items like that, it's. It's probably not going to be clean. Like, I don't recommend trying to clean that. Right. The thing is, it's not just what's growing on the surface, but it could get into the cushions. You're talking about a sofa. There's fabric, there's places for it to get into. And the best you can do is try to surface clean it. And that's not going to get it all out. It gets into the. Into the cushion pieces. And, you know, every time you sit down on that, it's going to kind of puff up and pop out. So, you know, to be honest with you, if you have physical mole growth on couches, my recommendation is to get rid of it. Now, I know that you only have only had it a month, and that's not what you want to hear. And obviously you can do whatever, you know, makes sense for you. But basically, two things here. One, really need a mold assessment of your home. If you're having mold growing on your furniture in a month, then that sounds like a problem. And two, honestly, I wouldn't try to clean the couch if you're, you know, if you're sensitive. Right. If you're sensitive and this stuff is impacting you, you know, trying to clean the couch, you know, you may get some of it, but if it's wedged into the surfaces already and it's gotten into the fabrics and in the cushions, it's not going to be fully, fully able to be cleaned. So I know that might not be the news that you are hoping to hear, but I really hope that it helps you start to think about what's going on potentially in the house and getting some things looked at. Maybe you'll end up finding, like, a bigger problem that actually caused the mold to grow on the couch. Right. It's not that there's mold growing on the couch. It's why is there mold growing on the couch, and how do we stop that?

Okay, so the next one is from Lost it. Here we go. Is from Brittany Nicole. And it says, is wall cavity testing a must?

I mean, it's a component. It's not like the end. All right, so every sampling method has its pros and its cons. Wall cavity testing is the best way to get behind a wall and get as close to the source as you can. So when I talk about wall cavity testing, it's all because I'm trying to figure out where the source is located. It has nothing to do with moving around your house, has nothing to do with what you're being exposed to, potentially. It's, where are the sources of mold, and how do we validate it? How do we find it? Because.

Most mold is H, and so you have to get behind the walls to find it. And that's why we're using signs of water damage as the trigger, and then we're doing testing in those areas. Is it the only way to test an area like that? No. I mean, there's other methods of doing it. It's one that I like.

It's what I do. There's another method out there that's called mycometer testing, which doesn't make you go behind the wall. It's more of like a swab on the wall, and then it's like an enzyme test. And so the idea is that all molds create an enzyme. It's similar, basically. And so it would get picked up on this test if the enzyme was pushing through the wall. And it's a way to not have to put a hole in the wall. To be honest with you, I haven't done a whole lot of testing, like, side by side on micrometer versus wall cavity tests. So I don't really know, like, accuracy between the two.

But you just have to think of it conceptually. If we're trying to find something that's hidden, then we need to look in the place where it's hiding. So if you're playing hide and seek and.

Somebody'S hiding under a sheet that they made, if you walk by and don't look under the sheet, you're never going to know if they're there. But if you want to know that they're there, you have to open the sheet and you have to look behind the sheet, and it's the same thing. So if you're playing hide and seek with mold, which is basically what we're doing, then you have to actually look behind the wall where they are. And there's not a way that you can look back there visibly. Infrared cameras don't do the tr. They only look for temperature differentials. And that literally has nothing to do with mold growing, really. So it's really meant to try to show you if there's a water issue going on. That's what infrared cameras really help to do. If you're finding a cold temperature in a space, then it might be a clue that there could be a water problem back there. So then you would be looking to test it with a moisture meter to see if there's moisture back there. And even if there's not, it doesn't mean there's not mold growth there, because if you've listened in the past, you'll know that that historical water damage is just as much of a problem as a current leak. And so, really, the only way to really know what's going behind a wall is to do a cavity test or to do a ceiling cavity test and try to see. Now, with that said, even Those tests aren't 100% perfect, right? Because we're going into a wall blind. We don't actually know what's back there. So there are times where, you know, I try to get as close as I can to where I think the problem is, and I do that by following the staining or the water damage. So even if it's not staining, if it's like, cracking or buckling or whatever, trying to get as close to the area that looks the worst. And then I'll do the cavity there, trying to get in there. And a lot of times it comes up, and it does show that there's a problem. And there are other times that it comes up and it doesn't. And I still don't really feel good about it. I'm like, gosh, I really feel like there might be something happening here. And so I may recommend in my reports that I may say something like this. I may say, while the results of the sample did not defect, a definitive mole contamination. Based on the staining that was observed or the buckling or the cracking or whatever I saw, I would still recommend opening this up for further investigation. And that's, you know, that's kind of how I word stuff like that. And it's because you don't know what's going on back there. Truly, a wall cavity, in my opinion, is probably the best way to get back there, but it doesn't. It's not 100%. You know what I mean? So is wall cavity testing a must for me? And the way that I go through and do my assessments, it is a must, but it's a must for a specific reason. It's for determining source. It's not telling us, obviously, what's floating or moving around the house. So hopefully that was helpful for you. Thanks for that.

And the last one that I think we're going to do today is from Annie E. Thorpe, and it says, how do you know whether or not you need to get out of your house?

So this is really a health question, right? And the truth is, I don't know. I don't know the answer. If you're reacting and you're having problems in your house, that's when you would probably consider it. Most people that aren't having health issues aren't even thinking about it. So at that point, it's about what's going on in your house, and then it's about having your doctor or your medical professional interpret that for you and let you understand, like, what that means for you. Right? So that's one side of it. The side of it is more financial and inconvenience. And I don't really think that's where you're asking, but that's a consideration. So if you look through and we say, okay, how many mold issues are there? How many sources of mold growth are there? Are there toxins in the house? Is the mold load really high? Is there a bacteria load in the house? Like, is the H VAC system impacted? Do I have to replace the H VAC system or do we think it can be cleaned? Do we have, you know, 15 or 20 different areas of the house where remediation has to happen? There's so many things that go on, and then the expense for that adds up. And so then the thought process is, okay, does it make more sense for me to invest into this home and do what needs to be done in order to get it the right way or not? That's a very personal question for someone. And it has to do with finances and inconvenience and how long you've lived in the house and your connection to the house and your neighborhood and does your family live nearby? There's so many things that go into that. Right.

You kind of have to think about those two things. Here's what I'll tell you, though. From a health perspective, Most doctors that you talk to that know what they're talking about, about mold, will tell you the same thing. They'll basically tell you that if you're in a home where there's a mold issue and you're being exposed, then you have to stop the exposure. And there's two ways to do that. You either leave or you remediate it properly. And those are your two options. So if you don't do one of those two things, then your exposure is going to continue and you're not really going to get much better. So from the medical side that, you know, that's a typical response that you'll hear from a doctor. Some doctors won't even treat patients unless they're out of the moldy environment, which I don't really agree with. I mean, it's not their fault that they're in a moldy environment. And you know what? A lot of us can't just get up and find a new house in three days. And it would be really cool if we had some. Some medical intervention that could help at least subsidize what we're feeling. Right? So that's my feeling on that. The doctors that tell you to get out of the house before they'll talk to you. I, like, screw those doctors. That's what I think about that. I understand what they're saying, but come on, we need help. People need help. So you help them out the best that you can and you let them understand that if that's the thing that's going to happen or if the exposure is going to continue to cause a problem, just make sure they know that. But if there are things you could do to help kind of manage Whatever the symptoms are, I feel like you should do that anyway.

So that's on the medical side, on the house side. Here's the other thing to think of is that yes, your home may have several problems, let's say. That doesn't mean that it's like just your home's fault, right? It's not like you have a lemon, you know, it's not like you bought a. You ever heard that term when you like. My parents used to say that when we had a car, it was a Ford Taurus. Taurus for Taurus for Taurus. And it broke down all the time. I had to be in the shop all the time. My mom kept saying that it was a lemon. And so I don't know if that's an old person or not an old person. An old time term. Excuse me. Or not, but. But I haven't heard it in a while. Anyways. It's not that your house is a lemon, right? It's not that it's like the only house that has problems. Most houses have problems. Honestly. 80 to 90% of houses have water damage issues. So it's not like you're gonna leave your place and find that has nothing. You know, there may still be some things that are going on. The thing is, how significant is the problem, you know, and how extreme does the remediation have to be? How long are you going to be out of your house? That's the question. The good side about it is if you have a good assessment done of your home, then you know the blueprint, you know what has to be done. And maybe you don't even have to do all of it. Maybe you apply more of that 80, 20 rule, right? Where if like 80% of the problem is coming from 20% of the places, then you focus your time on 20% of the places. You can't really like get down that specifically, like that's usually. I've heard it more as a business term about like figuring out like where your revenue comes from and who those clients are. And then you could focus all of your ad dollars on the clients that are creating 80% of your revenue. It's easy to do that kind of analysis in a business because you have all your numbers and your data and stuff. For a home, it's hard because a home's a living system. So you don't technically know like where 80% of your problems are coming from. However, when we all the lab results, there's quantifiable data and all that stuff. And we can start saying, okay, this definitely looks worse. Right. So like, these three or four areas are. Are definitely on like a separate tier of severity, and so you can focus your time on those if you want to. Right. And so just because there's a lot going on in the house doesn't mean you have to do everything. Keep in mind about the immune system funnel that I've talked about in previous episodes. Right. So if you're getting exposed to, you know, 100% of whatever your exposure is coming into the top of your funnel right now, and then as it goes through the funnel, your body's trying to detox it, and then whatever comes out the bottom of the funnel is what your body's able to get rid of. Basically, right now you're at 100% capacity on what's filling up your funnel. Not capacity meaning that you couldn't necessarily take anymore, but just whatever your exposure is, it's 100% right now because that's your exposure. What if you cut that exposure down by 50, 60, 70%? What if you were able to focus your remediation efforts on some of bigger problem areas that was able to cut your exposure down in half or even more? Don't we think that that would have at least an impact, like a benefit on how we're feeling? I would think, yeah. Right. I think if you're getting a lesser load that's coming in, then your body doesn't have to deal with as much. And then any of the protocols that you're on, the medical protocols that you're on, will have a better chance of working. Are they going to be 100%? I mean, if you're still being exposed and you're that sensitive, then probably not, but. But I imagine that it would be better. And that's ultimately where we're trying to go here. At the end of the day, you can't completely eliminate all exposure all the time. Even if we created like the perfect house that was like this hermetically sealed bubble that didn't have anything going on, you're still going to have to leave your house at some point. Although right now, who knows when that's going to happen. But if we ever get back to real life, you're still going to have to leave your life at some point or your house at some point, and there's exposure in different buildings, the grocery store, the gas station, your friends, houses, like whatever, Right. So you're always going to have some exposure levels. So it's a very long, rambling type of thought process on how do you know whether or not you need to get out of your house. The truth is, I think that you will know, right? I think that you'll know in your gut if you have to get out or not. If you have the proper assessment done and there's testing and there's toxins in the house and there's all these things going on in the house and the remediation is going to be, excuse me, is going to be like, you know, $100,000 to do and you don't have that and. Or you're going to have to be out of your house for two months and you can't do that. Or if you live in a neighborhood that you're not willing to leave and you know, there's so many things that go into it, but ultimately you need to think about how bad is the situation, how bad is your health and how rooted are you to that house and how willing are you to make whatever changes you need to make in order to start feeling better. Right? Because that's the ultimate goal. That's why we're probably listening to the show and, you know, that's why you're asking that question. So hopefully those are some things for you to think about that are helpful. So that's all that we got for today. I think we did four questions here today, which is cool. I've definitely got more lined up here. So at least one more episode this week, maybe even two more episodes. I'm going to be doing more Q and A, so keep listening in. These episodes are really cool because it's not just me talking like conceptually about stuff, but it's like real life things, you know, and if one person is dealing with it, I guarantee you more than one person is dealing with it. Right? Like there are others that are dealing with it too. So that's why I like to do these is it brings up very specific scenarios that people can relate to and I think that's pretty cool. So thank you everyone for submitting the questions. We'll see you again later this week.