58: Testing historical leaks / How to oversee remediation

Hello again, everyone, and welcome to today's show. If you're one of the 130 million people that are dealing with Sirs Lyme disease, autoimmune disease, or other conditions that are impacted by mold on a daily basis, and you need to learn how to eliminate that exposure, then you're in the right place. My name is Brian Carr, and you're listening to Mold Finders Radio.

Hey. So on today's episode, I wanted to talk a little about areas that were previously impacted by water. Like, so there was a leak, you had a flood. You knew something that went on, and then you had the area, quote, fixed by whether it's a plumber or a contractor. So they, you know, they. They replaced the damaged drywall, they put up new drywall, and kind of left it alone. Okay. And so. So that's kind of the setup. And so I did a project for a client a few weeks ago. We got all the results in. So they had this area where this had happened. So above the space was a bathroom, and the bathroom had a leak. And I forget if it was the shower or the toilet or something, but there was a leak up in the bathroom. It leaked down below into what was, like, this hallway section that was kind of right next to their kitchen. So they had this little hallway piece, and the water impacted the ceiling, and then it also impacted one of the walls in that space, and that's how the water came down. And so what they did is they had somebody come in, and basically they, like, replaced the drywall and the insulation, and then they put new in. Right. And so a lot of times we think, like, okay, we took care of the drywall. We know mold grows on drywall. And we replaced insulation. So if the insulation was wet, we got that out, so we're fine. Right? And that's what they thought. And so they. There was no remediation that was done. And, you know, again, what's remediation? Remediation is about source removal. And you think, well, we removed the drywall and the insulation. So, like, what's the other source? What's up there? Well, kind of think about the construction of a house. I know maybe not all of us have seen, you know, a house when it's not fully put together with the walls and stuff. But, like, if you ever driven by when they're building houses on the side of, you know, like, new developments, and you drive by and you see all the houses are just framed in wood, right? Well, that wood is behind the drywall and covered by the insulation. And that wood is prime feeding material for mold to grow on. Right. And so what they did is that they didn't address that piece at all. And so when I'm in a home and I know this history, so, you know, I always do kind of like an intro discussion with the client, try to feel out, you know, why they're. Why they called us, why they're reaching out to us in the first place, what their concerns are, but then also to try to understand what historical water issues have occurred in the house, even if they're small. Right. So I really. I'm like, okay, so what about anything here? Anything here? I sometimes try to help guide them for their memory to trigger. But. But this type of event is the things that we want to talk about. And so why is it important for me to know history? Because if there was mold that grew in a place where there was previous water, then it's still going to be there if it wasn't properly removed. And so when I hear about things like this, and the problem with this, by the way, is when we have kind of the basic building materials removed, but the area's not actually remediated, we think then in our mind that that area is fine. Right? And so when we're trying to understand different areas of our house that might be impacting us, we say, oh, well, this area was taken care of. There's nothing going on here. And the reality is there. There could be something going on there. And so we kind of. We kind of check that off of our list, and we don't think about it anymore. And then if we do that, then we'll never properly get it addressed, you know. And so one thing I always want to do when I go into a home and I know there's been areas of previous water impact, is I want to test those areas even though at the time there's visibly nothing going on. Right. And sometimes I come back in the sampling plan, and I have 6, 7, 8, depending on how many previous issues that they've had in their house, cavity test or isolated source test or whatever of different walls and areas where there's been a previous leak. And I. When I'm kind of running the client through everything that we're talking about, I'll say, listen, so these areas. So let's just keep this example in mind. So for this particular client, there was two areas that fell into this category. There was the ceiling, and then there was the wall that were both below that bathroom where this leak happened. And so when I was running them through the plan. It's. This is exactly what I told them. I said, listen, so we have these two areas here. Visibly, I'm not seeing anything, right? But. But historically, from what you told me happened and then how it was handled, I'm not totally sold that there isn't still a problem in there. Right. And I think if the goal. Cause I always ask what the goal is and what they're trying to achieve, and a lot of times the answer is very similar. It's we want to figure out what's going in our house so we can live here and not be sick and get better. Right? And so if that's the goal, then we can't ignore these areas where we know there's been water, we know it hasn't been remediated, and therefore there's a likelihood there's a problem there. Right. And so we have to include that as part of the plan. So we're trying to get a full look of what's gone on. And so that's what we do. So that's what I did in this place. So I did a ceiling cavity air sample, which, again, if you haven't heard me explain this, just real quickly, you know, we put a little hole in the ceiling about the size of a Sharpie pen, we stick a tube through the hole, attach that to an air sampling pump, and we're taking an air test from actually behind the ceiling. And then we did this same thing for behind the wall. So that's where air tests are very effective or are most effective and very useful is trying to find these hidden areas of issue where we're not visibly seeing anything. Right. And so that's where it's great. Not in the middle of a room, because you're not anywhere close to the source. So the key for an air sample to work is you have to be as close to the source as possible. And if you are, then they can be really beneficial. So that's how we use them. And that's what we did. And so I got the two samples back. So the sample in the ceiling came back, and we picked up the presence of catamium in the ceiling. So those of you who have gone really far down the mold rabbit hole probably know some of the mold types by now. Catomium is bad news. It's a very bad news mold. It's one of the molds that if we see it, even if we only see one spore of it, its immediate remediation has to happen.

And so we found some of that in the ceiling, in the test that we did, and then the wall that was next to it, we did that sample, and we found pretty high counts of cladosporium in that wall.

As compared to what the baseline samples looked like. We did a couple other cavities in the house as well for other reasons. And you could see that there was something going on here. There was an elevation of that. So we basically did two tests in two different areas of a house where there was visibly no indication of water intrusion. I talk a lot about these five signs of hidden mold growth that we look for, and this didn't have any of them because they removed the impact of building material, and they put new stuff back and they painted over it, and there's no way we would have known. Side note, this is why renovated houses are so difficult to be in for someone who is sensitive, because there could have been multiple areas like this, and they hide them all. And the problem is, at that point, you don't know the history. And so you go into a house and you might start reacting. And we have no idea where to start. Right. Because all of the clues that would be there in terms of these signs of water damage have been wiped away in these flipped and renovated houses. And so that's the challenge with those. So that's what happened here. Right? And now we're recommending that those areas get opened up and properly remediated. What's probably happening up there is a couple things. One, there. There may actually be mold growth on the framing and the structural components in there. Or two, they didn't actually clean the area well enough. So if you ever. When you open up wall cavities and ceiling cavities and stuff, there's like, a lot of construction debris and other. Just, like, a bunch of crap up there. And the mold fragmentation, the spores, you know, whatever they harbor in all that debris and that dirt and the dust part of remediation is that you have to get all of that stuff out of there too. Like, when I come and look at a remediated space after it's been cleaned and all the walls are still open, and I'm gonna take a look at it, I should be able to white glove that space. I should be able to wipe my finger over that with a white glove. Actually, secret. It works way better with a black glove because the dirt shows up on it. But I should be able to wipe my finger over it and not see any dust or any dirt on my finger. Right. That also means there should be no, like, drywall pieces anywhere. No construction debris any of that, because all of that stuff holds all the contaminants. It basically, it accumulates in there. It's not just about removing the wall. Right? The wall is just almost like the entry point to the area. And if all you do is remove the drywall and then, you know, maybe you take out the insulation, you put everything back and you don't address the debris, the drywall pieces, the flakes, all these other things that are there, and you don't surface clean and actually remove any growth that's on the structural surfaces, like the wood surfaces, then you're still going to have a problem back there. Except now you've given yourself a false sense of security because you think that you handled everything right. So, anyways, I just want to share that little case study with you guys so you understand how these areas of historical water issue are important and how we go about trying to figure out what's going on in those spaces even when some kind of cursory level of replacement has been done.

All right, so now I have another project that I want to talk to you about. So this project was a post remediation inspection. And what that means is that we went in, we did a full inspection and testing of the house. This happened.

Probably like six or seven months ago, I think, put the whole plan together and. And then the client figured out who the remediation company was going to be and they came in. And even before the remediation, we had a couple phone calls where I really went through the protocols and I answered their questions and made sure that they understood how we were going to be post testing and a bunch of different things. So there was no surprises for them in terms of how we were going to look at stuff. So we went back and we did the post inspection last week. And.

The thing I want to talk about is, like, when remediation is done, like, what should be happening when they're actually removing stuff. So when we write our protocols, they're the minimum that needs to be done, right? In our opinion, this is the minimum that has to happen based on what we're seeing. Because the truth is there's a bunch of walls and ceilings and cabinets and floors, and they're all covering structural building components. And we don't know what any of it looks like back there. Right. So we, you know, do sampling and testing in different areas, recommend removal of certain things, and. But part of the protocol, and this isn't just our protocol. This is like standard. This is the book. Like, this is. This is remediation. 101. You had to remove beyond any, you know, suspect mole growth. The problem is, is that I don't think remediators really understand like, like discoloration and staining. Like, they don't get that water equals mold. It's so weird. A lot of times I don't want to say all of them because some of them do, but I would say the majority of them don't. Right. So if they. I'll give you an example. So in this place, there was their laundry room. We had them remove the walls that were behind.

And around the washing or the washer dryer. Okay. Well, they stopped the removal exactly where the dryer ended. But there was like another two feet of wall to the right of that that they left there. Right. So when we went back in, we're looking and we're look and we're looking at that wall, and there's water staining at the bottom of that wall. Right. But we told them to remove the wall behind and to the left of the washer and dryer. And so they literally stopped removing the wall right where the dryer ended behind it. Right. They like, took it completely literally. Even though the next item in the protocol says that the remediation contractor should be looking for water and, and suspect mole growth and staining and then remove, you know, two to four feet past that. Right. So even though it's in there, like, they're not necessarily doing that. And it's tough. You know, one thing, when you're talking to remediators or to the companies and you're kind of doing your interviews with them.

You'Re usually talking to, like, one of the higher ups you're talking to, whether it's the owner of the company if it's a smaller company, or you're talking to, like a project manager if it's a bit of a bigger company. And those are not the people that are in your house when the work is getting done. And so the problem is you could have these amazing conversations with these people and feel really, really good about it. And then the people that are in doing the work are people that don't get it usually. Right. They're just kind of like day labor. They're in. I mean, I don't want to say day labor. I mean, they work for the company, but they're not like, they're not strategically figuring things out. They're probably not the people that are really doing all the research on exactly how remediation is supposed to get done. They're not the people that talking with the consultants and figuring out the plan. They're the people that say, okay, here's the protocol that was written. Go do this. And then if there's no oversight from the person you actually had the conversation with, then why the hell do we even have the conversation with them, right? And it's frustrating sometimes when you see that and sometimes when I see that. And this is not this project, this is general now. But I'm like, were you even, did you even go look at this stuff after they did the work? Like, because there's no way that we had this conversation. And then I go into the house and you tell me it's ready and it looks like this. So what the hell, right? And so one thing I think that you guys need to do when you're talking to whoever you're talking to for remediation is you need to make sure who is actually going to be on site and that they are understanding what, what the plan is and what needs to happen. Because if you're talking to the company owner and the company owner is like, yeah, cool, we could do that. Yeah, we could definitely do all that stuff. Cool. And then that person's not there and. And then you just have kind of your random workers that are in there and they just see it as another job. They're not going to. All of that information that you relayed is not going to get passed to them, right? And they're going to do things the way they always do things. And the problem is the way that you guys need stuff done because we're more sensitive and we have to treat this job a little differently is typically not the way they always do things. And so there's a disconnect with that, right? So I would tell you that if you're going through that process, make sure whoever you're talking to is going to be on site. Right? That's just a little side note. So anyways, so this is one example, right? So I said remove the walls, you know, and it was more specific, but it was like the walls behind these areas. And then they left literally starting no more than 2 or 3 inches to the right of where they stopped removal. There was staining on the bottom of the wall. Again, like that wall should have been removed, right? Like if you're seeing water staining right there because they pulled the baseboard off so you can see the staining behind the baseboard, then why is that wall, why is the wall still there? Now we're in there and I have to tell them to remove this wall and Now I'm the bad guy.

To the remediator. I'm not really the bad guy to the client. I mean, ultimately, they're happy that we're doing this, but at the same time, this costs them time. And when you're out of your house, it's not just that it costs you time, but every day costs money because you're renting somewhere to live, whether you're in a hotel or you're getting some sort of extended rental or you found somewhere to be. And so for the remediators to do this work and then for us to get back out there and look at it and. And then get the lab results put together and then get the report out, I mean, they lose. They probably lose a couple weeks in this whole process of us now telling them, okay, so now in this area, this area, this area, you have to go remove more stuff because it didn't look right, you know, and it's. It's frustrating. Here's another example from the same project. So this one. This one was interesting. So they. We had them take all the carpet out of the house because carpeting retains all of these contaminants. And when you're dealing with high mold loads or toxins or bacterial loads, it's going to settle in the carpeting, right? And so if you're going to go try to clean the whole house and leave all the carpeting in there, again, what's the point? You're just going to start spreading it all around every time you take a step on the carpet. So the carpet had to go. And so they did that. They removed the carpeting upstairs. And then. So when we go upstairs, it's all the subfloor, like the plywood subfloor. And certain rooms, the subfloor is almost. It's like black, super dark. And there are other areas where there's some water staining that's kind of like from under the subfloor to a wall, or I should say from like, under a wall, like on the floor. So the staining kind of looks like it goes under the wall and you can see the staining on the floor.

You know, some of this stuff, some of that stuff should just been removed before we got in there, right? And if nothing else, the question should have come up at least, right? Maybe they didn't feel like they wanted to remove it because it ends up being a bigger project. But the question should have come up like, hey, so in this room, the subfloor is, like, really dark? Or, hey, I saw in this room that There was actually, like, water staining on the subfloor under this wall. We should probably remove this wall. Right. Because that's what should have happened. And, you know, people kind of ask sometimes, like, well, why are you. Why are you charging again for another inspection when you're coming back, right, to look at stuff you're supposed to do? It's because we're doing a completely new inspection. That's why we spent.

Six hours going through this house. This is a house that we had already spent, like, five or six or seven hours going through the first time we did it again, this time looking at every area that was remediated, looking at the wood to make sure that it visibly looked like that. They, you know, that they actually, like, remediated and.

Forcefully removed the mold growth, whether it's scraping or wire brushing or whatever from the structural components, trying to make sure that they actually executed our protocols. There were places where they didn't execute the full protocol. They decided they were going to do a little less.

We have to go through and figure all that stuff out. It's our job to be your eyes and report to you on what's going on in there.

That's what we did. But the subfloor thing was interesting because there was a lot of dark discoloration in the subfloor, but not all over the place. Like, in certain areas of the upstairs were worse than others. Some of them were near walls. Some of them were not. So, like, if you're removing carpeting and you see that there's really dark discoloration around, like, near walls, I would then be pulling the baseboards on the walls to make sure that there's nothing weird going on with the walls. Like, did the walls have some sort of water issue? And it caused. And it caused mold growth.

On or under the subfloor. Like, we don't know that. You got to remove the baseboards now and take a look a little more. So part of what we're talking about. So what we did. Let me tell you what we did while we were there. So we wanted to try to figure this out. So we. We split the upstairs into three sections because it's kind of a larger upstairs. And we did a composite swab test on these three different sections of subfloor. Okay. So each section was, like, two bedrooms that we put together, basically. And we did a composite surface test of the subfloor to see if any of the darkness. And what we were seeing actually looked like mold growth or came back as mold growth.

For those sections. You know, I'm concerned that we have to remove some of the subflooring in these areas, you know, and so that was part of what we did for the testing. But I also want to see the baseboards removed anywhere where the darkness is against the walls, because there could be something hidden behind the baseboards where there's now hidden damage on the walls that we didn't know about before. Right. So the thing is, like, when you do the first round of remediation, it's not just done, like you have to look again, like stuff is hidden. We don't know what it all looks like. It's. I know that a lot of times, you know, the contractors and even the inspectors, they just kind of want to be in and out, you know, because it's, I want to say it's easy to go through a house and find things, because clearly it's not, but it is when you know what you're looking for. Let me put it that way. It's just a lot of people don't know what they're looking for. But.

Once you get into the post remediation piece, there's now a lot of added stress because the client side of their house is costing them money. And so everyone, like the contractors, inspectors, they just kind of want to be done with it, to be honest. Like they don't want to deal with, with the client who's getting frustrated anymore. They just, they just want to be done. And so they kind of go in and, and you know, and again, this is generalities, right, but they, they go in and they kind of just execute the plan and they're not looking for other stuff because you know what happens if they look for other stuff and then they say, hey, listen, I found some other things. They have to go back to the client and tell them that it's going to cost more money and they don't want to do that. Right. Because it's, it, it's uncomfortable for them to do that. And there's already, you know, a lot of stress that's in this situation.

But in this case, they should have done that. You know, in this case, I mean, for that laundry room example, it literally was another two or three feet of drywall. Like they should just pulled it up and there's no reason to have charged more to do that either. Like pull out a couple feet of drywall and clean some wood. It's not a big deal. And, but some of these other areas where it's, you know, pull. If we have to pull up some of the subfloor now. Now I understand maybe why they didn't pull up the subfloor because they didn't know for sure. Right. And there definitely are times where if you're not for sure if this is mold or if it's just some sort of, you know, discoloration from, you know, maybe the adhesives or something that was used, that's when you need to test it and figure it out. So that piece I get. Right. But areas where there's water staining on the floor coming out from under a wall, you got to remove that wall, right? You got to see if that wall got impacted or if there's anything going on back there. Because there's literally water staining coming out from under there. So there's. I just wanted to give you these couple examples because we're talking about remediation, you know. Yes, we have a plan and that is, that is the minimum of what has to happen. A lot of times it's all that needs to happen. Other times there are other things that they find when they open stuff up. You know, we're basically looking at a house. We think we walk inside the house and we think we're inside the house. We're not inside the house. Right. Inside the house is behind the walls and the ceilings and under the floors and in the attic, like all these places that we're not truly inside, you know. And so we're still kind of looking from the outside at all these things. And so when they get open, you actually see what's inside. You know, there could be some surprises in there and we have to make adjustments for that stuff. And so I just want you guys to know that like if you're doing these remediation projects and you have people doing that, maybe something that you could do is say, hey, listen, I want pictures of everything, every area that you're remediating. So hold on a second, guys. I'm gonna pause while this gigantic truck goes by. Hold on one second.

Alright. I think the worst of that is gone. Man, that must have been a gigantic truck. Anyway.

So what I was saying was to ask for pictures of things, right? Like we need to take a little more control of our own situations when we can and not. And not just completely rely on what people are saying. And so, you know, a lot of times we don't know what we're looking for. What you're looking for is any sort of staining. Just make it that easy. Staining or discoloration and say, let's say in this laundry room, they Removed, you know, a couple walls in this laundry room. I want wide pictures of the room. I want to see all the work that was done. And then I want kind of like a mid range close up of every area where there was removal and that's it. And then on your computer, your phones, you could zoom in and you can get closer looks at stuff, right? And just take a look like, oh man, is that water staining at the bottom of this wall over here? Oh, okay, guys, why is this still here? Like, you got to remove this. What are you doing, right? Or if you're looking upstairs and they, you know, removed carpet from like, you know, your upstairs, which might have like three or four bedrooms or something up there, then say I want a wide picture of each room. And then I want kind of what I would do in a big room where they just remove stuff like that. I'd want kind of a mid range shot looking at each, where each wall meets the floor in that room. And that's what I would want, right? And then from there I could pinch, I could zoom in, I could see is there staining? Is there discoloration on the subfloor? Is there staining or anything on the wall? And if there is, then you guys got to remove some more, right?

It's something that you could get done that you could look at pretty easily on your own. Now, I know you might not be super comfortable of like what you're looking for, but honestly, the fact that you're looking for it is more than anyone else is doing. So, you know, you should be doing that, right? And I think it's a fair thing to ask. And don't, don't say it to them like I'm going to be checking your work or anything, right? Just say, hey, listen, in each room, this is what I want to see. And just kind of leave it at that. I want like a wide picture of the room. And then wherever you're remediating, I just want kind of like a mid range shot so I can get a look at what's going on. Because I want to see what's happening. Because I'm paying you this money and I have the right to see what's happening. And there you go, right? And they should have no problem doing that, right? Remediators send pictures all the time. The problem is they send pictures they want to send. So now you have to be telling them what pictures you want to send. I would be wanting to see, ideally, perfect world. You see like a wide, and then you kind of get like a Mid range and you get different close ups and of areas as well. But you know, asking them for different close ups of things when you don't really know what you're asking them for close ups for makes it a little difficult. So if you just get a wide of the room, kind of see the layout, what they removed, you know, from the wide, you can look and see if they executed the protocol. I can't tell you how many times I go into a place and I'm like, why didn't they do this? And then the homeowner doesn't know that they didn't do one of the things that was in the plan. Well, if you had a wide shot of the room, a wide picture and, and then you just look at the, at the plan that was written out in the, in the report because it's all bullet pointed, right? And be like, step one, remove the cabinetry. Well, if you look at the picture and the cabinets are still there, like, well, you guys didn't do this, what's going on? Right? It's a way to do checks and balances before you pay for someone like us to come back out to tell you the same thing, right? Like why not, why not try to save yourself the money and just take a quick look on your own? You know, you could totally do that. It's something that you could definitely do. If you're just checking to see if they actually executed the steps that were on the plan, that's something very easily you could do because you're not like looking for mold or water damage or anything like that. You're literally just looking to see if they removed what we told them to remove. And that's an easy thing that you could do. Right? So I would be looking to kind of add that into.

The conversations and the expectation when you're talking to the remediation company. So recap one. Whoever you're talking to from the remediation company, who you're explaining the protocols to and all that stuff, they need to actually be the person that's going to be on site overseeing stuff. If it's just the owner of the company or somebody higher and they're not actually on site, then don't have that conversation until someone who is on site is going to be there and is going to be responsible for doing everything that, that you guys talk about doing. So that's one thing and then two thing. Getting these, getting these pictures that you can look at afterwards, if for nothing else, just to make sure that all the steps in the protocol were done is so easy and there shouldn't be a problem with that, right? They should have no problem with that. And then if you could also kind of tell them hey so also can like if it's a big room or whatever can you split the room in segments and just kind of give me kind of a mid range distance shot of each segment and then you can zoom in on stuff and you can see if there's any sort of staining, water damage, darkness, things like that. So yeah that's, that's all I got for you today. So I hope you guys found that helpful informative on the remediation stuff and we'll talk to you soon.

So that's it for today's show everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed the show please take a moment and subscribe and give a rating wherever you get your podcasts. It'll help spread the word to those who really need it the most. Sat.