93: Mold Brain, Autism, PANS/PANDAS with Dr. Jaban Moore

Hello again, everyone, and welcome to today's show. If you're one of the 130 million people that are dealing with Sirs Lyme disease, autoimmune disease, or other conditions that are impacted by mold on a daily basis, and you need to learn how to eliminate that exposure, then you're in the right place. My name is Brian Carr, and you're listening to Mold Finders Radio.

Hey, everyone, what's going on? I'm really, really, really excited about today's episode, selfishly, because I was writing something about how mold impacts our brain and our mental health. And then I looked on the schedule today and I was talking with Dr. Jabin today, and the whole topic is about mental health, mold, pans, pandas, how it's all connected. So selfishly, the timing is perfect. Super excited, Dr. Jamin, what's going on?

I'm just excited to do this too. I have been deep diving mold now for like the last year where it's been one of the biggest topics. I'm even doing a research study on mold and how common it is as a potential trigger for mental health in children. And I've been putting the study together the last six, eight months. So I'm just stoked to talk about this topic.

That's so cool. You know, I mean, specifically on the children's side. We'll talk about pants and pandas and like, what it is and all that stuff. But it's. I feel like that particular diagnosis or just understanding what's happening is starting to get a lot more traction lately. Or maybe I'm just seeing it more. But what do you think? Do you think that it's actually starting to get connected more?

I think so. You know, Dr. Sweeto was kind of the discoverer. She was one of the medical doctors who's working for the government, actually studying autism and then put together this work on pans, pandas. That was like 2012. So it's a fairly new diagnosis or thought, but it's definitely coming on. It's 1 in 200 kids is what they think now. Except, you know, 99% of doctors don't even know what it is or accept that it's a diagnosis yet. But if you really look back at it, I've done presentations on this and mental health disorders, especially in children, is skyrocketing in the last 50, 70 years. I mean, if you look at a chart, it's like a, just a almost straight up pattern of how fast people are being diagnosed with these things. And you've got to wonder why Are.

You thinking it's just because we're more aware of them now, or do you think that things have changed to where it really is, like more often than it used to be?

You know, I do think that we are more aware. That's a very fair statement. You know, I was posting out the other day that autism diagnosis is when I was a kid, I'm 34 now. When I was a kid was like 1 in 10,000. And now there's reports out that it's 1 in 32 in the last 18 months. Right. So do I think we're diagnosing it more? Are we more aware? Do we have better systems in place? Are doctors more educated? Yes. Do I think we're that much better at diagnosing it? No. And here's where I, I'm such a logical guy. Like I go back to. Let's just break it down. When I was in a kid in school, I remember like maybe one kid being severely autistic, needing the full array of support, unable to ever function in normal society the way that you think that you and I will, having those social skills, being able to feed themselves, those sorts of things. Now.

I've got a friend who's an OT and she works at a school, like an elementary school for a district that has been now designated specifically for special needs children. And there's whole classrooms full of kids that are on that severe autistic spectrum. So I don't think we got any better diagnosing the severely autistic. I think we've gotten better at diagnosing the very mildly autistic or very mild ADHD or these other mental situations. Non neurotypical, if you want to be correct in the way you state it. But we're not 10,000 to 32 better. We're 10,000 to.

A thousand better. Maybe.

Yeah. I mean, that's such a huge number. It seems kind of crazy. Like my first thought, there's two things. It's one, we're actually starting to realize things that were going on. Right? It's so funny. Like people like on the mold front, you know, everybody's like, oh, we've been living for mold with mold for forever. Like, yeah, but that doesn't mean that people weren't impacted by it before. It just means we didn't know any better.

And so on one hand there's kind of that thought. On the other hand, like, is there a chance that we're misdiagnosing or over diagnosing? On the flip side, for it to be that big Of a difference?

Yeah, for sure. I think there's always variability. You look at, for instance, adhd. Like I was a boy, I was, I was hyperactive. I was all kinds of things. I was always getting in trouble. I was spending my years in the principal's office.

I never took a medication, though. Whether right or wrong, I ended up making it through nine years of college. I'm a successful person in the fact that I, I add the society. I'm not, you know, doing drugs or anything else. Like, I think that, that there, there's definitely a range that we have to realize as far as being out there. And some kids are going to be more hyper than others and it's okay. Some kids are going to be a little bit more anxious than others and it's okay. And if you look at the genetic snips out there, you can start looking at that going, okay, so you're probably going to be a little more anxious and you might have a little more energy and you might be a little bit more on the side of toxic. So you're going to have a little bit more maybe depression going on. So there's things that we can see that add to personality types that may not necessarily need diagnosis. But then at the same time, we make houses out of mold food now, and we put chemicals in our water and we have antibiotics given to kids for years and years and years at birth, wiping out their gut floor. That makes neurotransmitters that would keep your brain normal and your immune system strong and help you to detox mold. So there's so many factors to put in there, but I think in the long run, there's always variability. Yeah, there's probably people diagnosed that shouldn't be. There's lots of people probably not diagnosed that should be. And there's a lot of factors making the fact that we are skyrocketing and not only neurological, but autoimmunities and chronic illness, too.

Yeah, yeah. When you said genetics tying to specific personality traits, are you actually running testing that shows that, like, is there a way for someone to go and have like a genetic sort of panel done and say, okay, so based on what we're seeing and kind of what you were saying, like, this person, you know, this kid might be more prone to maybe anxiety, this person might be more prone to something else? Like, is that something that's available that could be done?

You know, I'm not an expert on the genetic SNPs, to be honest, but there are people who are, and there are definitely SNPs that correlate more with.

How your body functions. So do you absorb and use B vitamins properly? Are you methylating properly? If you are not, then it's going to leave you in a more anxious state. And this is potentially because of again, that whole detox thing. So are you able to absorb B vitamins which help your brain function and develop, but also they help you to detoxify and clear out toxins. And you know, there was a craze a few years ago, the, the tumeric craze.

Right.

Like everybody, tumeric solves everything. And I'm like, eh. And then it turned into cbd. CBD solves everything. Well, no, both of those things do a lot of good, but they also effectively lower inflammation, especially, you know, in the brain. And if you do studies, an inflamed brain is going to be a more depressed or anxious brain. A brain on fire was an article written that was, you know, I don't want to say revolutionary, but kind of it was because it woke people up to the fact that if your brain is inflamed, then you have all these neurological symptoms. So if we look at those genetic snips, which, like I said, it's out there, you can see maybe what your body is struggling with so that you can support yourself in a way that, that may decrease some of the struggles that you're having or symptoms that you're having out there. I mean, for instance, mold. Right. If you're hdlr, you can't detox it very well. You can't be in an environment that has a ton of mold or even a little bit of mold for that matter, which is going to make you depressed and anxious if you're living in that environment.

Yeah. And I see that a lot. Right. And so that serves what you're describing. Or write that genetic. I guess that's not technically served, but the genetic predisposition is kind of what triggers into that. Right. Oh, go ahead.

Yeah, I was going to say, yeah. The HDLR gene is a genetic.

It's your part of your genetic code that allows you to be more reactive to mold. That sirs happens. Mast cell can happen. Generally, for all those listening, if you don't know what those abbreviations are, you feel really bad because your body cannot tolerate mold.

Yeah. Basically your body is just like on overdrive trying to get rid of it and it causes a bunch of problems. That's like the layman's term of kind of what's going on.

So I just realized we didn't actually introduce You. I got so excited to talk about stuff that I didn't really introduce you. Let's take a step back.

Why don't you give everyone a quick overview on why they should even be listening to you at this point. Guys, we're 10 minutes in. Hopefully you're still here. Let's talk about who Dr. Jabin is and how he got into this. Just like a quick overview. I think it'd be kind of nice.

Yeah. So here's my elevator speech, right? I was a collegiate athlete, multiple time all American, went to school for chiropractic, thought I was going to work with professional athletes in sports and because I love sports. And then all of a sudden, the walls caved in, I got sick. I'm in chiropractic school. I'm the fittest I've ever been in my life, and eating the best I've ever ate in my life on a routine. All the right things that I could think of and pain and fatigue and erectile dysfunction, hormone dysfunction all hit me and I'm just like, wait a minute, what? So then I went down the road of chronic illness looking for an answer, which takes forever for everyone, it seems, unless you get lucky. Went to multiple doctors that just told me, hey, you're 25. You know, sometimes erectile dysfunction just happens. Like, here's a pill for that. And I was completely not going to accept that answer. That was just not acceptable for a healthy 25 year old male that had previously, like I said, you know, been an athlete and is in professional school. Like, I'm not giving up that easily. Even after 10 doctors ended up getting to the right place. Talked to a guy and he said, you might have Lyme. And I said, how do I help these? I don't know. But there's this guy in Wisconsin that might. So I traveled to Wisconsin, he helped me out, and within weeks I started feeling a difference. But it wasn't just Lyme. It was CO infections, like parasites, it was viruses, it was other bacteria, it was toxins. And then after my healing journey, that's when I ran into people that were not getting well, doing those sorts of things. And I was like, wait, what is holding these people up? Why can't they get well? When I got well? And that's why I ran all ahead full on the mold, going, holy crap, what is this? Why, why is this not talked about? You know, like, this is maybe worse than Lyme. And you know I have a personal vendetta with Lyme, right?

This is probably worse than Lyme. And Then as I'm getting into practice, I'm getting people well, and. And dad asked me, like, well, you got me feeling better.

Can you help my kid with autism and pans? And I said, no, I don't know what that is. Hardly. I mean, I know I've heard of it, but I don't really know what it is.

He's like, what'd you do for me? And I said, well, I removed inflammation and interference and then your body got well. And he said, can you do that for my kids? And I looked at him and said, well, yeah, we can try that. And then his kids started showing progress to having more neurotypical function. And that's how I got into the pans. Pandas mental health mold realm was just simply being in practice and being inquisitive because I don't have all the answers. And the longer you're in practice, more like, and probably with yourself, the longer that you've been doing inspections, the more chronic of a people come to you. And then you've got to figure out the next thing.

Yeah. I mean, it's why we constantly evolve, and that's why we talk to you guys all the time and try to figure out, like, what are you doing? That's actually how we even got into even looking for endotoxins and actinomycete bacteria in homes and different things, because we start talking to you guys and you're like, hey, we're doing gut panels. We're doing this, we're doing that. Like, these are problems. We need to figure this out. So, like, and you're right. The longer you do it, you get the most chronic, you know, cases that end up coming to you, which I guess speaks well for, like, how effective you're being, you know?

Yes, it does. And then it also makes you want to pull your hair out sometimes because you care too much, and you're just like, how do I help this person? And you're sitting there at night, or like I did this morning, listening to podcasts in the gym while you're working out over a topic that you feel like you might not be strong enough in so that you can make that one tweak that's going to get that next person better so they can send you the next person that's going to have the next thing, which is, I guess, why this is a passion, not a job.

Yeah, you have to really be. You have to really be into what you're doing and wanting to do it. That's for sure. Because I'm the Same way, like, I'm like. I'm literally, like, sometimes sitting in bed at night and I'm reading, like, PubMed articles.

Connecting different things.

It's ridiculous.

Okay, all right, so there we go. So everyone listen to Dr. Moore. All right, While we're talking. So we had, like, a good intro there, and I really want to do more of a deep dive on pans and pandas. But maybe before we jump into that, because I think that'll be the bulk of what we talk about.

Can we just talk about, like, how mold impacts the brain in general? I feel like a lot of times people get hung up on this because they're like, well, I'm breathing it in, right? And then it goes in my lungs. Like, how the hell is my brain getting impacted by this? What are the potential paths that that happens? Because sometimes, like, if we don't understand logically how it can happen, then we don't believe that it can happen. You know?

So there's. There's a couple ways that I like to talk about how this happens. One of those ways is mold is incredibly effective at getting into your body.

It's.

It's an immunosuppressant on its own. There is, like, several medications that were designed based off of the structure of mycotoxins from mold. So the toxin that mold releases to suppress the immune system, so mold itself, once it reaches inside your body, is going to suppress your immune system, allowing for things like Lyme and strep and staph and E. Coli, mycoplasma viruses, parasites, to just run rampant. So that's step one, is it lets everything else out of the cage. Step two, it gets into the nanomotors in your mitochondria, causing them to slow down or be damaged. And you can see this when you're running testing through organic acid tests, and you watch the Krebs cycle or the beta oxidation slow down to where it can't. Your body cannot create ATP or energy, right? So you're not creating energy anymore. That allows you to repair and rebuild your own body structures because mold is damaging the mitochondria. So now we have suppressed immune system. We also have broken down energy system pathways. And then on top of that, you have the fact that mycotoxins themselves can create cytotoxic reactions, which is basically creating inflammation in the body. And like I was saying earlier, inflammation, not only just like your joints, like arthritis, but inflammation in your brain is going to create.

Depression, anxiety, immune responses that can eventually lead to autoimmunity and if you look at Cunningham panels, if you look at a new test that I'm using a little more often, called the neural zoomer, you can see that the immune system will attack different portions of the brain. And in pans and pandas, that's basal ganglia, but attack different portions of the brain no different than what we're commonly. We know about. Like Crohn's attacks your gut lining, or RA attacks your bones. This is attacking your brain. And mold can trigger that also. So that's three ways. You have autoimmunity, immune suppression, and mitochondrial dysfunction, all triggered by mold and their mycotoxins.

That might be the best, like, short.

Bulleted point explanation that I've heard on that, which is awesome. I have a note that says great right next to this.

Thank you.

That's really, really cool. And I know for me, like, I like to understand how that's just the way I think, right? Like, I'm like, okay, you can tell me that something impacts and does something, but, like, I need to kind of understand the mechanism of how it does it. And then when I know that it can happen, like, okay, this is. It happens now. Like, I get it. It happens. So. And that's. And so all of this is one big reason why I feel like a major symptom that comes up when people are exposed to mold is brain fog or memory loss or something like that, right?

Well, for sure. And then just to add another, more deep dive mitochondria, right? So we have different amounts in different parts of our body. And for instance, the brain has the most mitochondria, so the most energy production of any part of our body. You know, your skeletal muscle may have somewhere around 500 mitochondria per cell. Your brain has maybe 10,000 mitochondria, even more than that in some of them in the cells of your brain. So if I have mold, that's damaging my ability to produce energy in a place that needs that much energy. You're going to notice it maybe before you notice that, you know, when you're walking around the house or cleaning, you're not feeling that as much because your brain has to operate at such a higher capacity. And then mold damages the mitochondria, which doesn't have all the same mechanisms of repair. Again, we were also lower energy, but we don't have all the same mechanisms of repair in our mitochondria that we do for our own DNA structures and other parts of our body. So mold is one of the perfect weapons to bring down your. Your body's ability to recover and build energy.

That's crazy. So that means that the brain healing process is more. It sounds like it's more difficult than trying to clear it out of other areas.

Definitely. And that's why mold is so hard to alleviate from your body. And it creates so much side effect which we can get into that as we, as we continue down this path today. But mold can create when you're trying to get it out. I've got one person who we've been through some parasites, we've been through bacteria, we've been through all these other things. And she was the ultra sirs or ultra.

Just dropped out of my head. There's some brain fog for you. Mast cell reaction type person. Like, she couldn't take B vitamins. She can only eat ultra keto. She can't have any food off of that or her body starts to crash. I mean, she is one of the sickest people I've ever worked with. And we got through all these things and she was like, I had a vacation.

That was amazing.

Like my brain fog, my depression. All of it dropped from, you know, nines and tens for the last 20 years to down to like threes and fours. She's living life. And I'm like, okay, well, here's the fun part. Now that I got your drainage open by clearing the parasites out of the way, which I I'm now finding, the parasites are part of the detox, drainage, opening the pathways part. It's not just the infection, but it's actually part of that drainage detox portion. All that she got through, we're like, okay, good. Now when I get her to mold, Holy crap. It's depression, it's anxiety, it's fear, it's irritability because that mycotoxin that can be lighter than air, that can be so small that it can get into the littlest, tiniest crevices and break down your DNA, break down your nanomotors for producing energy as it starts to come out, Even being bound to good binders, Even with drainage open, it still wants to create an immune response because the body wants it out so badly and doesn't want to allow it to circulate.

And this is what happens when people have like, Herx reactions when they're detoxing too fast.

Right, exactly. And even under perfect situations with someone who's been doing this for two years guided by a doctor, it's still not always easy.

Yeah, it's crazy. I remember the very, very first time that I took was I wasn't even taking binders. I took PC.

For a few years ago, the very first time I did anything, and I took. I was doing the pill form of it, and I took, like, I don't know, three of them or something, and I crashed for, like, two or three days. It's like, whoa. Like, wow, this wasn't even a binder. Pulling stuff out.

And it knocked me out. But I can handle binders a lot better now and kind of everything else a lot better now. So, like, it gets there, you know? So, like, I'm on carboxy now. I'm doing it twice a day. And I even take biotoxin or the bioactive binder, too, a little bit during the day, too. So that's all it gets there. Sometimes it's just hard at the beginning.

Okay, so let's transition into.

Let's talk about some of these different health effects. So first off, can we talk about what, like, maybe the first way to do it is what is pans? What is pandas? And then after that, we can. Because everything's kind of neurological. Like, what's the difference between that? Because we were talking about autism earlier and kind of those things. I guess maybe we can kind of go down that path. Yeah.

So we're diving into specific diagnosis, which autism doesn't have a single cause. I do presentations on it, and I went to Mayo's website and I said, what is autism? Into the search bar. And it came up with. Basically, at this point, there's not a specific answer to that. There's thought that it could be partially genetic, partially environmentally triggered, which molds environmentally triggered. They listed a number of different things on there that they were considering, but there's just not a answer for that yet. Whereas pandas is a autoimmune reaction creating encephalitis, which is inflammation of the brain to a pediatric population due to strep. So that's what pandas is.

And then pans is the same thing, but not because of strep, because of some other and some other factor, which could be Lyme disease, mold, enterovirus, herpes, any other trigger. So it's specific to some environmental toxin or other toxin infection, creating an immune trigger that creates a response that is a specific set of symptoms that are an acute trigger. So the general standard in that pans and pandas world is, for instance, you get strep, and then you heal from strep. But there's an acute or sort of very fast.

Change in behavior or neurological function where you now become OCD or fear Anxious or having ticks, physical tics, whether they be voice or body movement tics. And it can also have a number of other things, like loss of handwriting to some depression, irritability, defiance, adhd. There's a number of smaller symptoms and then there's a number of, like, key larger symptoms. But it has to be an acute change right after. And it usually is affecting the brain and the basal ganglia area. So that's pans and pandas. But then there's this other subset which I love to talk about at this point that can happen to not just children, but adults. By the way, we're seeing that Panzer pandas is finally starting to get accepted as a toxin infection triggered neurological change. Right. In kids. But it happens in adults, too. I see it all the time. It just doesn't necessarily have a name. And then what if it's not immediately after you get strep? So you get strep. And then afterward you get this.

Going on for six months. Then, then you get a cold. And then after the cold, you get a little irritable, and then you recover and, and you're a little more irritable. But then six months after that, now you have a stressful event at work, and all of a sudden the floor falls out from under you and you're chronically ill. Behaving autistic, which is what these pans kids end up behaving like in some cases, the severe cases. But even as an adult, your brain's on fire now. You're. You're unable to work because you know everything's just falling apart under you because of these buildup of immune reactions that have now left your brain as an autoimmune reaction. So I just gave you autism, pans, pandas, the potential for kids that have other behaviors that aren't acute but still can have it, and then adults that can also have immune reactions or encephalitis to their brain that's not necessarily diagnosed pans and pandas, but is basically the same mechanism and leads you to have the same symptoms and honestly, similar effective ways to get well, but all have to be under different names because that's the way that the medical establishment is. It all needs a name and a specific, specific way to diagnose it so that you can code for insurance, which for me, I don't care. I just want to figure out what gets you, what got you sick and what gets you well.

So crazy. There was a lot there. All right, so I'm going to ask. Go back to Pandas. Versus pans. Right. So pandas is, is tied to strep infection specifically. So pandas was first is kind of how I understand it. Then pans is kind of like the evolution of that. Is that right?

Exactly. So pandas was strep fact found. And then they're like, well, this is still happening. But we can't find any strep because strep. Strep is a bacteria. It's normal. We all probably have had strep throat at some point. So we think about strep in the throat. But strep can also be anywhere in the body. And it's great at creating mimicry where it pulls a little snippet of your body and then puts it on its cell membrane to hide. And then now your body, once it eventually identifies that strep, will identify the strep and that snippet of your own DNA. So let's just call it part of your brain, and it will attack your brain and the strep, and it creates, you know, an army to do that or antibodies. So now it's identifying your brain as an infection along with the strep, and that's creating this inflammation that led to pandas. But when this was happening without any strep being there, they said, well, why? And then they named it pans.

Is.

Okay, hold on. So I think that is probably the most. The easiest explanation of autoimmune disease that I've heard, because that's basically what you described. Right? So you have something in your body, it mimics or steals a piece of the DNA or something from somewhere else to try to hide. And then your body then identifies that piece of DNA because it's still attached to the invader as a problem. And is that what autoimmunity is?

That's what some of autoimmunity is. I mean, at this point, I can't say that as a broad birth, but that's how I imagine most all autoimmunity. It's, you know, you've got strep trying to be the Trojan horse and just slide into your, your body without being suspected while it's lurking there doing some damage to you. And then eventually your body's like, wait a minute, this is a problem. Let's attack. But it's attacking you and it's attacking the strep. But it's also identified you, like you just said. So, yeah, it's, it's a huge window into the mechanisms of autoimmunity. Mycoplasma do the same thing by the Way.

So, man, that's. It's cool again, it's just like a good exploit. It's like a visual that I can, like, kind of see happening now, which I think is cool. So, okay, so we did pandas. So pans. So basically you're saying it, the same thing is happening, but strep isn't the trigger. So basically you get the same effect that you were describing with the brain inflammation, but the trigger is something else that's environmental. Right. So is that kind of what you're.

Saying, infectious or environmental? It's basically anything else that triggers you. Triggers your body to have an immune response that's not strep. Can fall under pants.

Got it. And so then the next question is.

Let'S say you had pandas, which was strep specific. And then.

And then you're in an environment where you're being exposed and you have a mold issue going on. Is it. Is it kind of like once it triggers. No matter what the trigger is, whether it's strep or whether it's an infection or whether it's your environment or whatever, once it triggers and it starts, then having any other sort of inflammatory kind of agitator will affect it all the same way.

That's exactly it. So if you have strep and it triggers your body to now think that your basal ganglia is. Which is a part of your brain, is a part of the thing hurting you. So now it's got an antibody for basal ganglia in your body, and then you calm down your whole immune system and it's chilled. It's not attacking you or your basal ganglia because you got rid of strep. And then you're living your life and it's been six months and everything's good to go, then you go and you move and you move into a moldy home. Or in the case that I've had, which, that I've had that case many times, but I've also had a kid, have his parents get divorced. So no infectious trigger, no toxic trigger, an emotional trigger that flares the immune system, because stress itself can flare the immune system. Now when the immune system is flared, it still has and will keep those antibodies for at least nine months, but could be years. It keeps those antibodies, and when the immune system flares, those antibodies are heightened. And if it. Then now it will attack where those antibodies are triggered to attack which they're sighted in on your brain, your basal ganglia, and it triggers the reaction. So no more strep left. Now it's some other trigger, but you still have the antibodies, so you're now having those reactions again, even though the original problem is gone.

And I think that's, that's the biggest thing I've always tried to wrap my head around is how an exposure to something that is kind of non connected ends up triggering something in a certain place. And what it sounds like is that almost like the antibodies are kind of trained, it's kind of how I'm understanding what you're saying. And so when you flip on the inflammatory switch, it's like, okay, we know where to go, we're going here. And they just go there.

Yeah.

Which is. Yeah. Just nuts. It also sounds a little similar to me, like, and tell me if I'm on here or not.

Like Lyme disease or even like chickenpox or something where once the, once it's in you, it's there. And then if you have some sort of trigger. So like you'll get shingles later in life if you get like a super stressed out or something happens. Right. And then the same with Lyme, you get a mold exposure down the road. And then even if you had, you know, dormant Lyme infection, then your immune system gets messed up and now all of a sudden it can thrive. It kind of sounds like that too. Is there, like, is, is it, is it not? Am I just making correlations?

It's, it's a little different. So Lyme or Vazella Zoster, which is shingles virus, is a little different. And it's because those things actually still are in your body. Those organisms are still there. Not that strep isn't, but those organisms are still there. And they themselves can regrow in an opportunistic situation and become pathogenic again. So they're just waiting for your body to weaken. Whereas technically autoimmunity is a little different. So it's, it's like you have.

You know, you're training little attack dogs. Your, your antibodies.

Right.

So, so, and they're not exactly like this, but for, for a visual, you have your immune system and you trained it because it identified strep as being bad. So it attacked that. But because your, your tissue, your brain tissue is also on there now. You've also trained the attack dogs to attack your brain, which is never going to go away. And if it does, it's a really, really bad thing, which leads to, you know, brain symptoms and damage. But you got rid of the strep now, which is the infection. Like Lyme is the infection, but it's left over these antibodies that will attack your brain.

Without the strep even being there. So it's not like the organism itself has to come back. It could be a totally separate organism, but you still have your brain tissue, which is being attacked.

Waiting for that stress.

Yeah, that makes total sense. Oh, man, it is. It's so crazy when you start diving more and more into mechanisms of how stuff work, you know, and like, I just don't feel like there's a whole lot of this out there for like, you know, general Joe Public or whatever. Like, it always. It gets so. All the, all the research papers, it gets so complicated, you know, and you're like, you don't know half of what you're reading if you're not like a trained doctor that knows what you're reading. So the attack dog thing, I love stuff like that. Like, that's what I said. I hang myself, my. My own hat on when I try to remember things.

You know, I always say things that I try to make it, and then a doctor will correct me. I'm like, I know it's not exactly right, but it gives people something to think about. Just like when. When you're dealing with Lyme and all these other things, lime and mold and. And part of the reason why some autoimmunities are even seemingly triggered is because your body is. It's like shoot first, ask questions later. It's like, you know, all these things are storming your beach. And you're the. You're the machine gunner up there. You see 400, 000 people storming the beach. You're not shooting at one of them. You're shooting at everything. Yeah, and that's your body. When you're living in mold, you're literally attacking everything. And that's why you're getting mast cell and chronic inflammatory response syndrome. You were attacking everything that's coming in that. Your body doesn't have a moment to sit back and go, oh, that's just pollen. Oh, that's just peanut butter. Oh, that's just, you know, your brain tissue, it's just going to attack it all because we're under. We're at war.

That's a really good visual, too. That is really good. It's like you. It's. You remember. Do you ever play those video games when you were younger? We're about the same age. I'm just a couple years older than you. Where we would. Yeah. Like, it was like a gun shooting game and you're supposed to shoot the bad guys, but then Randomly, like a, like an old grandma would pop out from behind a barrel or something. And you weren't supposed to shoot her because she was like the good person. But then the game starts going faster and faster and faster. Right. That's how it gets harder. And then you just start shooting the people you're not supposed to shoot.

Exactly.

You get the score, like taken against. It's like exactly what this sounds like.

The problem is, is these infections dressed up like grandma, now you don't know which one's which. And then once you shot one grandma that was shooting at you, now you're shooting all of them. And that's what the body's doing.

Oh, it's so crazy. So crazy. All right, so let's talk how you handle. How do you handle this stuff? I know there's not a one blanket thing, right. But it kind of seems like the inflammation piece is like a big component of is.

So when you're working with this, this overreactive situation, the first step you got to take is you've got to find a way to reduce the onslaught of all these things coming at you. Right. So my first step is, are you in mold? Step one. If you are, get out. So I'm going to run mold testing both on your body and on your home with an ermi. I'm going to tell them to call you. I mean, that's like my first thing with almost everybody is, are we dealing with mold? Do you know if you're dealing with mold? Have you ran testing on mold? Maybe because you're not going to get better if you're living in mold. At least not easily.

Yeah.

And then what's in your water? What are you drinking? I've got somebody living in mold drinking asbestos filled water. Not asbestos, arsenic filled water. And I'm just like you. You can't get well like this. Like, move, just move. And that's the hardest thing for me to say to anybody. But I was like, this environment is just a no go for, for any. Anybody.

And then once you get away from the stressful environment, whether that's a person, a place or the toxins in the environment, get away from that, then we've got to start working on building your energy by sleeping, eating enough, because so many people chronically aren't eating enough, and then decreasing your overactive immune response with things that help to train your brain to stop attacking everything. So you get this, this habit of always being in protection mode. It's part of the limbic response. And when you're in that Protective mode. It's not even that things are coming at you anymore. Your body's just so used to it. It's like PTSD for the immune system is happening, and it's attacking everything. So once we can calm that down, get out of the environment, build the body, then we start with going into the detox and drainage and off into that realm.

Wow, that's cool. I think people skip some of these steps, you know, I mean, the mold thing, a lot of people, you know, I just see a lot of people have skipped it, but I feel like a lot of people have also kind of figured that out. But then the second step that you're talking about, like, once you get out in the environment, you kind of get your sleep and everything in order, and then you're. You're trying to kind of rewire the PTSD that you talked about that your autoimmune or that your immune system has, and then you do drainage and detox. So, like, what are the kind of things that you do when you're in that. That piece when you're trying to kind of calm your body down? So the limbic response you're talking about.

So there's a number of options out there. There's. There's one that I absolutely love, and I'm. I'm finding more and more and more that I'm. I'm really leaning into it for my super chronically sensitive people that just aren't seeing the results. And unfortunately, as a practitioner, you know, we go through things and I'm like, okay, I got these couple people that are stuck. What do I do? Okay, I'm going to put them on the neurofeedback that I got for depression, for somebody else to help train their brain out of patterns. And then I put them on it for the ptsd, and all of a sudden, they can tolerate food better, they can tolerate their environment better. Their fear, stress, and anxiety went down. And it was because I was listening to again another podcast while working out.

Of.

Gupta Protocol, which is a limbic retraining protocol, or DNRs, which is a limbic retraining protocol. So those are two good ones out there. But the. The neurofeedback is what I call a passive therapy, meaning you can lay in a chair. It's sound, light, and color therapy, and it helps to exercise your brain to rewire out of this PTSD overreactive response. Gupta and DNRs are active therapies where you have to be involved in it, meaning you have to do the retraining yourself. So you have to do the training, watch the videos, and mindfully, kind of like meditation, train your body and your limbic system to behave a different way. Which I think combining the two of those is extraordinarily amazing and just something you should be doing if you're having these limbic PTSD type responses. But neurofeedback for me is, I like fast things. I like really fast things. I'm like, let's just jump into it. Let's just force your body to heal. If you can tolerate that, of course, because some people, it's. It's just a lot is you bring down that stress response, starts going, well, let me help you heal, and then starts to detox. So we've got to do it within the, the realm of what their body can handle. But, but those are some of the things that I'm doing there.

How, how do I get one of these neurofeedback training machines?

My favorite one right now. And again, this is one of those things, like, I'm just that guy that loves what I do. So I, I was at a seminar one time. My office manager had depression, was on a couple medications at really high doses, felt better doing it. So I bought like the little home unit, which braintap came out with a home unit. That's a pretty good thing, and you can use it. So that made her feel a little better. So I was like, oh, what's the big unit that does an EEG of your brain which maps it all out, and then does the PTSD protocols, Because while you're on the machine, it's responding to how your brain's working and actually changing how it works a little bit. Kind of like a carrot on a stick. It'll lower the sound or it will take and turn the TV off whenever you're out of sorts, out of where it wants you to be. So then whenever your brain goes back in to the range it's supposed to be in, out of the hyperactive fight response, then it will turn the TV back on, turn the sound back on. So you're sitting there watching, you know, Blue Planet or something, all of a sudden now it turns off because your brain is having a fight response. So then I had to get that one because I was like, well, if the little one works, the bigger one's got to be better, right?

Was it.

It was so much better. It was like 75 better. And, you know, it costs a whole lot of money, but then you've got to do it six sessions really fast for people And I've seen people with not immune to ptsd because that one's a little harder to extrapolate, but, like, actual PTSD because of abuse or rape or things like that who were afraid to go in public and didn't want people to touch them. Like, the shower, like, the water hitting their back caused, like, a traumatic response, like, freak out. Can't. Can't do it. So, like, she would have to face the water and then scrub her back with something because she couldn't turn her back to the water to. To rinse off. That's how bad she was. And it in six sections, shut that doll. She could shower, she could be touched, she could go out to events where there were thousands of people without, you know, wanting to cower behind the, you know, one storage told me she, like, went and hid between two porta potties because there was just too much stimulation. Well, it's doing the same thing for people's limbic systems and their overreactive immune systems, giving them a chance to start healing. Now, here's the. Here's the drawback, because I'm making it sound like it's the one stop shop, and I got to be a realist, right? If you're still living in mold, if you still have Lyme, if you still have parasites, it's temporary because your body's still in the fight. It can reduce the reaction because it gives your body, like, okay, we're coming out of this. But if you don't ever go and heal the rest of the problem, like getting out of the mold and treating the Lyme and doing the things you need to do, it's temporary, so you've actually got to do the work with it.

This is so interesting. I'm like, deep diving in my head right now. So the big one adjusts to readings is taking while it's happening. The small one sounds like it doesn't. So. So, like, what if somebody's different? What if the response isn't the same and one person, like. Like, does it need to be tailored to someone? Or is there just kind of like a baseline that. That everyone should be at? And it kind of works towards that.

So the little one doesn't have any reading. So it is, you know, your program will send it home sort of thing, and it has a positive effect. But again, it's not as effective.

The.

The big one is they've taken.

Hundreds of thousands of brain scans, and they have you fill out all these psychological questionnaires, and they.

Then rate what the EEG in comparison to how you describe yourself. And they did all this study and researching and trying to figure out where the patterns normally are. And then they have ranges, kind of like your blood work. They have a range to which you should be in.

And that range is probably a little wide. So you could have a little anxiety inside the range. You could still probably have a little bit of these other symptoms. But that's what you filling out all these questionnaires now helps us with. So it gives me a rating of what could potentially be psychogenic versus what is electrically showing up. And then we can tweak that program, you know, not necessarily the PTSD side, but if you're still having this later on, we can tweak that program to fit what you're describing to me. Like, okay, I'm too anxious. Okay, well, we're gonna put you on a protocol that helps bring down this brainwave back into a little bit lower section. Because there are there, you know, there are multiple sections here. Here's a deep dive for you that I love that I don't have all the research on people that are living in mold or having chronic illness that I am telling you are probably having some sort of brain reaction, some sort of autoimmunity and toxic brain end up more often with what they call low energy brain, which is like a. The scan comes up showing me blue versus green is normal, red or yellow is high. They come up blue. 17% of the average population comes up blue on its own. But tell me why three fourths of the people in my chronic illness practice come up blue. And I thought it was my machine at first, because I was like, why is everybody just blue? And then I had a bunch of people that don't have symptoms anymore and they were all green and normal. And I'm like, oh.

Sick people may have low energy brains. And that low energy brain goes back to the mitochondria. It goes back to the mold, the metal, the lime. And then imagine this. If your brain is low, think about this. If your brain is low and you're unable to process and have the energy to live in a normal life, aren't you going to be more anxious because the whole world seems overwhelming?

Yeah, I mean, it totally makes sense. That is nuts. So is there like just kind of a baseline screening kind of what you're saying, like you should be in certain range? Is that what you're talking about? Where like 75% of people were off versus 17 normal?

Yeah. So there's this brain map where you put like a cap on and it looks like one of those things in the movie. We put gel through little holes in it. And the. There's little sensors on there that the gel connects to, and it allows us to electrically read the different parts of your brain just to see how their function is. So if you're like super high alpha, you're not sleeping, or you're drinking alcohol before you came in for the test, which is a no, no. So, you know, there's the scan, and then it tells us, okay, this is what we might be looking for in your symptoms. And then you fill out all those tests and it correlates. And sometimes you're like, I.

I'm mean to myself. Like, you know, that's one of the things that it asks about and gives us a rating on. And then the EEG comes back and says, well, that's not an electrical problem. That's a psychogenic problem. You know, your mom trained you to be that way, so you need to work on, you know, better self affirmations. Whereas being overly worrisome or being irritable or hypervigilant. Okay, you described yourself as always being hypervigilant. And then the EEG also described you to be hyper vigilant. Those correlate. Okay, that's an electrical pattern that we can work on.

Whoa. And so that's where you're talking about the comparison between passive and active, like doing the other two things. So, like, the affirmation piece is more of an active kind of reworking.

Exactly.

Wow, that's super neat. So do you run something like. So if somebody just like, so curious about this? So like, if somebody, if they get out of the house, that has the mole problem. Right. And they're, and they're, you know, they're starting the process or whatever. Do you run this normally on someone just to kind of get a feel? Like, okay, we're out of the environment. We're working on you. Like, what's happening with your brain? Is that like something you do?

You know, I. I probably could or should, but I'm also such a virtual practice. I have a brick and mortar. But over this past year, it's become so virtual. I'm just now getting back into doing more neurofeedback. I mean, for a year I pretty much was just like, with the laws in our city, it's a pain in the butt to get people in here and, you know, put things on you that then we have to wash. And I mean, we wash it anyway, but ultra clean everything. And it's just been weird. But.

Moving forward, I'm seeing the benefit of this thing even just again in the PTSD part of it. Not even with everything else, just in the PTSD part of it, just to shut down that reaction. But yeah, in a research study, you definitely could go, okay, you're living in mold, running eeg. Okay, you've been out of mold for two weeks, running eeg, how many symptoms went away. And then it'll tell you, you know, like you had all these symptoms that were electrically there and you have all these symptoms that are not electrically there, but you're also doing a whole assessment on yourself and you could put those in there. And you know, if you have anybody that's in Kansas City or the surrounding areas that wants to make a drive in, it's not that expensive to get a brain map here. It's, it's only $99. And you could just do a before and after comparative to. Okay, Brian said I was living in mold, now I'm out. Is there a difference?

Wow.

That'S awesome. That's really, really cool. I love this stuff. I'll stop talking about it because I could probably ask you a million questions that is probably beyond what everybody wants to listen to, but man, that's super, super cool.

All right, so. Oh gosh, we're like 50 something minutes right now, so we should probably get close to wrapping this up. So we've talked about how all this stuff impacts your brain. We've broken down with pants and pandas is we talked about how the follow up inflammation that's created from can then retrigger the initial impact of those things. We talked about some treatment stuff. So the treatment stuff was get out of there or not even get out, but just fix the problem. So sometimes just get out, sometimes just fix the problem. And then you had second was sleep. Was there something else that you said other than sleep on that second piece?

Well, just all the pieces. Drink clean water if you can. You can start doing things like grounding. If you're in a warm enough place, you put your feet on the ground, you can get red light therapies, you can do saunas, castor oil packing and dry brushing and just trying to get the mold kind of draining on its own. Building your body strength of sleeping, eating enough food, eating quality food, supporting your body's anti inflammatory through lifestyle majors. Before we even get into the, the supplement side of things or the herbal side of things, where you start driving processes, you know, that's, that's like step three.

Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. So you Kind of fix or get out or fix the problem and then start creating a foundation almost that when that then the other things can start to build off of what do you. So I, so I. Lately I've been deep diving into grouting.

You mentioned it. What's your thoughts on grounding?

So there was a friend of mine who wrote a big research paper on a medicine. It's a meta study of grounding and there is something like 40 studies out there that you can search through. I don't have them all in front of me, but that have been done, put out into journals and PubMeds and things that show physiological change. It's measurable when someone takes up the practice of grounding. And some of them are even like your, your cmp. So your comprehensive metabolic panel that's ran every time you've been in a hospital on almost every general blood lab out there. And you can see changes in that in a positive direction by grounding, which is allowing your body to let out negative ions and take on ions, negative mean bad ions which tend to be more positively charged ions and take on your negatively charged ions that are in the ground and just allow for the natural to happen. And you know, this, this pushes you into the conversation of the body requires electrical conductivity to be alive and to function. Which is how acupuncture works. It's partially how your nervous system works. Like we are electrical beings and the earth is part of that. That allows you to just to dump out toxic ions.

Yeah, it's. I was like loving as I was diving into stuff. I now sleep on a grounded pad on my bed and I have like a grounding mat under my desk after like getting into all of it. But it's. So it was interesting like what I was seeing a lot of examples about, you know, people who had chronic. This chronic. That wasn't really like mold illness stuff, but I think nobody was really doing stuff like that, you know, but it was more like people who you know, have had like chronic pain or whatever and, and nothing was really working. And then they start grounding and then all of a sudden they're able to move again and they're able to kind of move around and it's because it was, it's an inflammatory reducer. And so like what you were talking about with, with you know, kind of the ion switch. So basically the entire earth is like this battery of.

Electrons essentially. And in our body free radicals are flying around and the free radicals are created from inflammation and so they start moving around and they're like starving for electrons essentially. And so they start taking electrons from other cells in our body because they need them and it creates inflammation. And then when you flood your body with it with an overabundance of electrons, you are now able to basically kind of turn all of those off because they don't need to go to your body anymore to get them. That's kind of my understanding of it.

And that's a very, very good understanding. You know, it's, I just love it because shoot, I just go back to kidney or class of acupuncture. And your body, the, the Chinese 5,000 years ago knew that you were going to absorb through the acupuncture point on the ball of your foot. And that's how you got more chi. That's how you filled your chi by putting your feet on the ground with that. And she would be life force in their, in their words or now we're knowing it's ions, it's energy. So 5,000 years ago they figured that out. We're finally finding the science of why. But it's amazing, you know, just giving your body the, the minerals, the nutrients, the ions.

The sleep. The rest that you need is building that foundation so that you can build your health on it. It's like building a pyramid. You've got to do all those things before you need to move to that next layer up.

Yeah. After reading about all this stuff, like, man, I wonder what would happen. I haven't seen anything about it, but like someone who has a massive kind of mold inflammatory problem wherever it is. It could be brain could be other places. What would happen if they got on just a consistent. Where they're grounded, like let's say 16 hours a day or 12 hours. So you sleep for eight, you go to work for another eight, and you're basically grounded the whole time. Right. Like, like what kind of impact could that have on the inflammatory load? Like it's not going to fix the problem. Right. You're just, you're just basically continuously trying to beat down the inflammation and stop that. But if you have something, your body is going to keep creating it. But like, would that make life a lot easier or able to? Because a lot of times I have clients that are, they're like, I'll talk to them and they don't remember a lot of what I'm saying. Or it's really hard for them to process stuff and it's just because their brain is just messed up, you know. And like. And so then they end up staying in the situation longer because they become sort of like, I don't even know. Paralyzed, the right word. They just. They can't make a decision because they just don't know it's too much. You know? And if you were able to fight down that, that long term kind of inflammatory response and let yourself, like, think for a minute, like, would that help people kind of move quicker and heal a little bit easier or something, you know?

Well, absolutely. And I'm gonna throw some science at you that I don't think you quite asked for, but I think you're gonna love this. So look at the Alzheimer's, Parkinson dementia, studies on what's happening in the brain, and it's triggering an immune response that shuts down energy production and replication and synapse building and cleaving or cleanup. You know, how we, you know, clean up our plants and we take off little stems so that will grow properly, and we go back and clean that up. The brain does that with synapses. So when you're talking to them, it's building memories.

And they lose the ability to create and then to clean up their, their brain synapses and then also to heal when the brain is having those immune reactions. And we see this with Alzheimer's, dementia, Parkinson's, in the research of these brains, of people that are, you know, their brains are wasting away, they're dying. And if they remove those triggers, turn back on normal function, because you don't have that immune response anymore, the brain goes back to creating synapses and cleaving and cleaning the pathways so that that information is more usable. Because I say the same thing with my clients. I'm like, oh, you have brain fog, not remember anything I say. So I'm gonna send you an email after this so you can read it.

So that you follow through with the directions that I'm giving you. And it's a joke, but it's true.

And they. No, I know, it's not funny. Yeah, it's not funny, but it's. It's just so common. I just see it all the time.

So, yeah, if you can get out of the mold and give energy back to the body by removing free radicals, then you start to turn these mechanisms, you start to turn the wheel again of normal function.

So cool. So cool.

All right, well, I think we did a good job.

What do you think? I think we have a ton of information. The only thing we never got to was what happens once you actually get to phase three and start treating, which so many people love to hear about.

I know, I know. And we may do a. We may need to do a follow up on that. I feel like there's so many places, really, for people to go and find some form of information like that. But the setup on, like, how everything works, I don't feel like there's a whole lot of that. That's why I like to try to break all that stuff down so people understand, like, what's happening and then. And then get into the other piece. But there's definitely more room for us to talk. For sure. I mean, I'm like. I'm like, just trying to stop in an hour right now. So.

We'Ll. Maybe we'll do it to be continued. We'll do another one later. But thank you so much for taking the time and doing this. This was awesome.

Absolutely, man. I really enjoyed it. It was some of my favorite topics and I've learned so much from you. And it's just all about education at this point because if you give people the knowledge, they're going to find a way to get well.

Yeah. Yes. And sometimes you just need some help to figure it out. Not all of us have 10 years to deep dive a particular subject. So it's nice to have people that can help guide you.

Absolutely, man.

All right, cool. Thank you so much. We will talk to you later.

Bye.

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