⚡️ DEI in LATAM 🌎 Overcoming Challenges and Biases | 🎙 The Nearshore Cafe Podcast

Welcome to the Nearshore Cafe Podcast, home to the most interesting stories and people doing business in Latin America.

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Nearshore Cafe Podcast. I'm Brian Samson, your host. And first, let me just give a quick shout out to our sponsor for the day. That is Nearshore Direct. Go nearshoredirect.com, a great way to find talent all over Latin America for US companies. I am so excited to welcome our guest today, Melina Meznada. Her friends, and hopefully we can do this the same, we will call her Meli. Meli, so nice to have you.

Hi, Brian. Thank you so much for the invitation. It's so important to me to stay here and have this chat with you.

Absolutely. So, Meli, your background is really, really impressive. You've done all sorts of fun and interesting things. What I think would be interesting for the show is we talk a lot with business leaders all over Latin America. Argentina is a country that comes up quite a bit. Why don't we just start with where you are and where you grew up. Can you, can you walk us through, through that?

Uh, yes, I grew up in a little town in Patagonia, Argentina, near of the beach. And so it's a wonderful place to, you know, have your first step and try to, um, spread your wildness. And, and I think because the Patagonia is so huge in a way, and you are in a, in very close, uh, experiences with the nature. And so I learned a lot at that time about death and life and cycles and these kind of things that in our days we talk a lot, but it's something disruptive in a way. And for me was very interesting to understand and being part of my identity.

Yeah, I've had the pleasure to spend some time in Patagonia. I was in Chaltén and El Calafate. For people who have never been to those places, and also I didn't have the chance to go to Bariloche, but I've seen pictures. It's absolutely beautiful. Uh, what should people who've never been to Patagonia, uh, how would you describe it? You know, what would you, what would you, uh, uh, share with them?

Okay, uh, the landscape are beautiful, like they are a postal, a picture, like a movie, you know, when you are in this kind of, uh, Discovery Channel, like it's this kind of things, but At the same time, you have a history, you have indigenous people who also are there, and nobody talks about that. And it's very interesting because you have a mix of cultures and also people who— it's very interesting to try to create a new life there. Many people who is from a city or urban cities, they go to Patagonia to create something different. So the idea of community is very present, and for me, something that is an inspiration. And you have a lot of, you know, different ideas of immigration at the same time because you have to create something from scratch, and that is, you know, the best lane of this way of being. And at the same time, I think people have this respect of how to create something different, but at the same time with the nature and the idea of sustainability. That is something that, again, in our days is very popular, but in this kind of places is part of everything. And the connection with the government at the same time, because something connected with the legal things and so on, is very new. It's something that people and the town is very strong in that way. And for example, if some kind of, I don't know, oil industry wants to create something, the town and the people are always very present and know this is something very important to, uh, take care as human, human being, and we want to do it. And I think that is something impressive at the same time.

Yeah, absolutely. Are you still, um, an outdoorsy type of person? Do you still enjoy hiking and, uh, doing all the outdoor type things?

Yes, but I don't know, he— right now I'm, I'm in the, you know, Buenos Aires, and it's a very huge city. But sometimes when I open my door, my door and, and the window of my home, I could see, and I, I thinking we create mountains, you know, the, the buildings are mountains in a way. We want to recreate that kind of things, and it's very crazy because I have this metaphor in my, in my mindset. And, and I could see that and I always need that kind of fresh air, you know, good tomatoes and good food and good things that are in that kind of places. And here in the city, everything is very, you know, industrial and you couldn't have these kinds of things.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I wanted to start with a topic that is quite important across the world. We talk a lot about it in Silicon Valley and the tech world, but it's certainly impacting everywhere, is diversity and inclusion. Can you tell us more about how you first started to think about this? And you've obviously made this a big part of your career journey, and it's something that you speak a lot about, you write a lot about, but how did this all start?

Well, I think being part of Patagonia where everything, you know, the multiculturalism is very present. I think for me it was like a shift, like this is part of everything. But then when I was a teenager, I was like, I used to be a classical dancer. So I have to travel to Buenos Aires, to the Colón Theatre, to be part of that thing. And then I was adolescent, and I think here is something that is broken. And the thing that I connect, and right now I could see very clear, was that the women in the ballet we have to struggle a lot, show a lot that we deserve, we are someone who could create something different. But the choreographers, most of them are men. So it's very crazy because we are like a puppet, like they say how to, we have to move. And I think for me was the first time that I could see, well, this is unfair, and why I, I couldn't be a choreographer, why I have to, to, to dance or show that I'm valued, or I have a value. Uh, and the competition is very hard because you have a lot of women and a few men that are the partners. And so I think that for me, that, that was the turning point to changed my point of, you know, my vision, changed the sunglasses, glasses, like, okay, this is different. And then through my entire career, I could find this pattern, like, that was in the classical dance field, but when I start trying to connect education, and because I want to change the way we learn in, in, in the art field, uh, I could find the same. Like, women, we teach, we are— we have this kind of roles in education, and we are the, the most people working actively, uh, but the people who, who decide, uh, our I don't know, how to move in this field, how to be a leader, and so on. Most of them are men. So I connect with that, like, okay, this is broken too. And, you know, a director of a school, a principal of a school, I think in US is pretty similar. And or around the world. And I think, okay, I have to change this in a way. And through that journey, I turned my career to the technological and education field. And there I found, like, again, technological field is very pretty male. And so men create the rules and women are the people who have to, you know, be the best, but doing that kind of rules. Um, we have this overadaptation and, and that was my turning point to create something different. And that's why I create with another group, uh, Chicas en Tecnología or Girls in Tech, and to try to reconnect these things. But through this journey, I wake up and I could see also other kind of diversity. You know, in technological field, we have neurodiversity, and we don't talk a lot about that. We have multiculturalism We have another kind of field. And one thing that today is my main concern is the generational diversity because we connect technology with young people and it's not true because the people who take the decision are not young. The young are the people who buy these ideas or create a part of the, I don't know, a software or something like that. And so for me, it was a completely different journey, as you mentioned. But I think the most interesting is we are in a great moment to be a protagonism, to have a protagonism, and also to be aware that diversity, equity, and inclusion is a dynamic The— are three different concepts, but the three concepts are dynamics, and we are people who have to put it in a context, give meaning, but be very aware of, uh, the impact. And if something of this have sense or not and is in the correct path you know, correct, uh, roadmap or, or the pattern that we want to change. And everything for me also is connected with leadership because we haven't got, you know, uh, these ideas connected with leadership. And indeed, the, the role models and so on, everything around that concept. Always we work split. Like, in a way we have leadership, and on the other hand we have diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I think we have to also connect these fields and try to get the most with this reality.

Yeah. I'm particularly interested because you've worked in these different institutions, you know, in dance and then technology and, you know, other, other types of organizations. How is the tech industry maybe the same and how is it different when it comes to diversity and inclusion within Argentina?

Tough question. I think technology has the power to change everything because it's, you know, it's in everything right now. We haven't got way of go out of the idea of technology. And I think technology have a very potential to change things because if we change, for example, a rule or something like that, the power is exponential. But through the last years where the technology become more powerful, men create these kind of rules, change the rules in a way. And so, well, sorry for saying this, Brian, but America-wide, and with the particular things like you, are who the people who is changing the things and And also, I'm talking in a very privileged way because in Latin America, women have differences. We have this intersectionality also. And connecting with your question, I think this is a very crucial moment to try to have the tough ideas on the table, have the data, because we want— we always say this phrase, like, we take data, we take decisions, uh, data, databases, and so on. And it's not true at the end of the day because we have a lot of bias and so on. So Maybe the business at the beginning of this kind of reconnection or rethinking of the purpose of the tech field is not going to be, you know, very— we have to pay. And that is the thing that nobody wants to talk about it. We have to pay. For the price of what we did wrong. And connecting with artificial intelligence and so on, and the technology that are in the field right now, we have a huge problem because we know that everything is very, very in a hurry changing the things. But at the And the problem is one. The problem is we have to put a stop, have the tough question, try to be a good mirror. Like, this is the mirror of the society. Is, is for real, or is the mirror that we want to create of the society? Because if not, we have this huge problem. And, and I think that the next generation are going to say, hey, you live in this moment, what are, what What did you do for that? And I'm paying also for this problem. And I think try to be very aware of that. It's not only part of the tech field, it's also part of the government and the public sector and each person.

Yeah, yeah, it's really changing the world for what you want it to be. For, for where you want to take it. And that's a great point about the mirror. Um, you know, I remember, uh, uh, years ago, uh, I was a head of recruiting for a tech startup in the US, and we were, you know, maybe 30 or 40 people. Um, and I, uh, brought up the topic of diversity, you know, maybe we should start thinking about diversity. And, um, like most tech startups also in the US, it was heavy, heavy male, right? Heavy male, especially engineering and product. And what I heard back was, we need to worry about survival first, then we'll worry about diversity, right? We need to get our startup to a certain place and then we'll worry about it then, right? Was a hard thing to hear, but I don't think that startup was by itself in saying that. I think other startups probably felt the same thing. And then you also look at who are the startup founders. In the US at least, it's mostly men. Who is receiving venture capital? It's mostly male startup founders, right? So that means you have this inertia and momentum, and then the rare companies that make it to a certain size and scale, all of a sudden now they have to change this momentum. Right. I'm curious if you see a similar makeup and ecosystem in Argentina. Is it similar like that, or are there any differences?

I think it's similar because we want to copy and cut. And if we want, as a startup, we want to have investors, we always are looking for, looking for this kind of US is the hub and, you know, Silicon Valley and so on are the role models in a way. And so that is the problem for me because As a region, not only as Argentina, we have a good, you know, possibilities to change things, especially because I always say like we live in the future in a way we have less resources, we have to do everything with zero money and so on. So we are very, you know, you have to think out of the box. But it's part of the survival here. And so in a way, we invest in, for example, in networking, in the way of how we could create a life balance and these kind of things, because we have this idea of the family is important, the time is different, everything is different as culture. And so in a way, we have very, very good things to try to change the recipes that we want to, you know, buy every day. But we have this contradiction of, well, okay, but if we want to grow up or if we want to be popular or have this, you know, the COVID magazine in Forbes and so on. We have to be the, the cool entrepreneur that, uh, go to, uh, US and they have some money and so on. And this is tricky because we have this contradiction, but we have the, the possibilities to, to change things because, as you mentioned, The system is broken in a way, and so we have to create new solutions, but the new solutions, maybe they already exist. And the problem is where we are seeking for that kind of solutions. And sometimes I love to think about how to change the idea of For example, Latin America being like our Silicon Valley and something different of Silicon Valley because we don't have to create that. We have to create something.

Right.

Yeah.

You don't, you don't have to do everything, right? You, you have, it's still early enough where you have the power to set the culture, set the tone.

Yeah. And sometimes we haven't got the technological resources and that is a good thing because we always are thinking about the low and high. Tech, uh, the digital thing, but also the, the low-tech thing and the possibilities, the infrastructure. And it's something very powerful in a way because sustainability is going to have this connection and is very, you know, accurate, uh, the way that we resolve things.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh, I wanted to ask you, you know, we're, we're talking a lot about Argentina, which is one of my favorite places. Um, But I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about the rest of Latin America, because you've also had the chance to work across these different country borders. Can you tell us about DEI across Latin America and maybe trends that you'd like us to know about?

I was working for the Inter-American Bank And we found that, for example, we have a problem here in Latin America that is the poverty, but at the same time, the aging is a problem, the generational thing. But because we have a lot of good things connecting with, for example, adolescents that are mothers, That kind of things change here. We, we have a lot of, uh, access and methods and supplying programs to try to, you know, aware the population about, oh, you could have this kind of, uh, health, reproductive health on your hands, and so on. So that changed a lot, the, the way of working and also the, the projection of the population because we are going to be very old, as the world, but particularly in Latin America, something that we never saw or see, people who have in the middle of, I don't know, 60 years or something like that. And but with poverty is going to be a problem. So in a way, that is a trend to change the access of, you know, how to change things, and this is a good thing, but we have to put a focus on that. And the other thing, I think that the idea of the multiculturalism connected with the Indigenous, we have there, we are also failing for our roots. Because, for example, in the case of Argentina, we have a lot of immigration, so it's very different, uh, of the other countries. And also the indigenous, well, they have a lot of previous problems, a whole thing, and we don't talk about that. And also we don't talk, for example, about, um, um African people who went to Argentina as immigrants and how they mixed and so on. So I think that, that this, the thing connecting with the multiculturalism and they have the thing that the connection that we never talk about, that we have this narrative that are very present but we don't talk about that. And it's a problem for me. It's a problem because if our identity, and in a way that is a thing, the other thing is diversity connected with accessibility. We have this idea of everything must be very perfect family, and because most of the countries are Catholic, and so the family and the family with this photo of mother, father, the daughter, and the son are perfect. It's a problem also in the, in the idea of this is not true, and we have a lot of diversity inside our families. But we don't talk about that. And the last, I think, is how to rethink the role of the women, as you mentioned, because it's true that, for example, Argentina is very different from Chile or Uruguay, or— but we have a lot of problems. We have murders, we have a lot of issues connecting with violence, and sometimes it's not only physical violence, it's also, you know, this kind of microviolences or microsituation of how a boss or give you or they pay gap or this kind of things around how to be a woman in Latin America. I think it's a huge problem, but it was a trend, but right now it's continuing being a trend. And so we could see some little changes, at least at the government level or, you know, campaigns or NGOs. We have that on the agenda, but the intersectionality, as I mentioned, is also the problem because we have these mixes, these differences between cultures, and sometimes we don't talk about that.

I also wanted to ask you about Wikimedia, you know, which is an interesting organization because it's a tech company, but it's really a nonprofit and it's so global, although it's US headquartered. What did that mean for you to work in that type of environment? And, you know, maybe how was it similar to the US and how was it different having— you were in the Argentina division or subsidiary? I'm not sure how it was organized.

Yeah, well, it was a very interesting experience. Indeed, I'm an editor in our days. I try when I could, I tried to do some, some different articles. For me at that time, Wikimedia haven't got an educational program, not only in Argentina, around the world, and the main problem was the educational field. Like, educators always say, oh, Wikipedia is the worst, and it's not a source, and students copy and cut information. Pretty similar as ChatGPT right now. You know, we have the same problem. 15 years later, we are at the same page. And so, Um, at that moment, uh, they, they say, oh, we need someone who create this program. Uh, could be in Argentina, I think, because it's cheaper in a way. Like I say, okay, yes, come on, give me the program. I'm going to create this. Uh, but it was amazing. They give me a lot of, you know, uh, freedom to create and to rethink, uh, and so at the same time that I create that program, we translate, uh, in, I don't know, most of, most of, I don't know, uh, 300 languages around the country, around the world. And so it was a shock, like, oh my God, this is, you know, uh, and a teacher from, I don't know, one little town in Asia is working with this material. And that is the power of Wikimedia. I think Wikimedia has this spirit that when someone connects the idea and understands the idea of Creative Commons and the idea of the freedom about technology and the commonwealth and the community, I think that for me community is everything and everything is for free. People is volunteer, are in this way working as volunteer and that for me was a turning point to understand how works technology for the, you know, for the good. But we have again the problem, as I don't know if someone listen this, I challenge that person to, you know, go to Wikipedia, click on edition and try to understand how that article is created and how is something that have, you know, is a living thing because you have the chat and you have the forum and you have many people very, very passionate trying to have the sources and understand if your position is good or bad or what is going to happen, you know, what is going on if some statement is there. And because at the same time that you are editing that Sometimes a person is taking that as the whole thing, and I think that is the moment that you understand the power and the ethical way of working in technology. Because you are not only a user, you are a producer, a pro-consumer. And for me, I think We have to learn a lot of the journey that Wikimedia already done and have a lot of, you know, good manifests, good things like common rules, because indeed it's a huge community. But talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, at the moment that I was working in this, I, I have, you know, I understand that only the 8% of editors around the world were women. So we have a problem there, only the 8%. So we create a lot of programs to encourage women to edit, but we have a lot of problems because Sometimes women feel like, oh, I'm not feeling so sure. And so in that moment, you have the community that is telling you, be very aware and take care of this. And so if you haven't got this identity or digital identity, very, very strong, like, come on, Sharad, I'm going to write and I'm going to give you the answer. I'm going to put the, the, the, the source, the primary source, and so on, is probably a way of saying, okay, I'm going to— this is not for me, goodbye. And that, that happened at that moment. And, and I'm not so sure if we are in, in, in a different pattern right now, but I think because this is a, this is a systematic problem.

Meli, I've got a few more questions for you and we'll lighten things up a little bit. So at the end of last year, it was a big moment for Argentina with the World Cup. Where were you when it happened? How did you celebrate?

Oh, well, I was with my family. I have a baby. Like when everybody was screaming like, yeah, go! She's like, oh my God, what is going on?

Where I'm—

where I choose to, to, you know, burn, born— this is not the correct place. And yes, was very dramatic. And I, you know, uh, I live some blocks, uh, in the near the downtown. So that was a crazy thing, you know, people were screaming and jumping and, and no, and in a way that I think also we have, we were strongly a lot with the, the economical issues, the social social— sorry, issues. We have a lot of issues as a society. So I think we feel this like a relief. And it's not only to win a cup, a World Cup, it's also, you know, the life and the journey of the hero that Messi already done and all the Sosa players, like, they struggle a lot and so on. So you feel like this is so being an Argentinian. You feel like, yes, suffering is part of the creation of— and you could do this. And also for us, I think, was in a way like, I— we could work together. Because here you have a lot of, you know, you already know, Brian, I imagine the profile of Argentinian. Like, when you are, you know, in a lonely place, you have less resources, you do everything good, you know. But you are, in a way, a little bit individualism. You have this problem like, I'm messy, I'm not a part of the team. And, and I think we learned in this, uh, last World Cup that we could be a good team. It's not only, you know, lonely leaders doing the thing. And I think that was inspiration for me and, and for the whole country. And because we are in the middle of something not so good, as you know, the economical— as I mentioned, the economical issue, social issue, and so on. So we have to work together to create something differently. Um, the last year here, sometimes you decide to don't look the problem try to, you know, this is not my problem, uh, and it is. And so being part of something bigger, being part of a community, or of the sensation of that— I'm not saying that in our days we apply that recipe, but I say, well, this, this was a previous, I don't know, a snapshot or something interesting to, to understand that we could do things in a different way.

Um, you've had the chance to travel quite a bit. Um, uh, so this could be, uh, something from the US or somewhere else, but, um, your favorite purchase, favorite thing you bought, uh, for under $50 outside of Argentina.

Oh, I think, um, it was a book.

A book.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it was in a sale and the name was something like, uh, How to Change the World. Very ambitious. Without money or without taking the power or something like that. Like very ambitious, the title. Like, okay, this, this is the key of everything in my life.

Well, if you can point us in the direction, or later we'll find it, we'll post it for our audience. That's great.

I like it. Maybe we have a lot of chainmakers. We don't know.

We do. Well, obviously your English is great. For me, my favorite Spanish phrase or word is as simple as ordering water. I just think it's So fun to say aguas y gas or agua con gas. You know, it's so much more fun than water, right, in the States. Do you have a favorite English word or favorite English phrase?

Oh, I think there is a word like pitfall. I don't know. I learned it in the Wikimedia community. And I think Everything connected with English, and especially in America, I love the way of being so straightforward. And you haven't got this, you know, the two meanings of everything. And here I think we have that kind of things. We have a lot of psychologists working on that. And this is something that I appreciate a lot. Like, okay, come on, you are saying this and It's just that. I'm not trying to understand or read or come on. And I love that. And the word of Pitfall, I think is connecting with how to be also very straightforward with the opportunities to change things. You know, I love the spirit to, oh, give me feedback and let's change that. Just do it. And I think that is so Americana and I love that. I feel like. Come on, it's so simple that like that.

Yeah, it reminds me, I think I heard somewhere from an Argentine that Argentina has more psychologists per capita than anywhere in the world. So in comparison of France also, it's a culture of understanding meaning and talking about feelings a lot.

Right. So for me, something is higher, like, come on. And you know, we have tango, and I think that is this music. And the tango is always so melancholic, and we are always like crying about the thing that we never done, and, and you know, the past. And, um, I think it's it's good to, to have that, you know, empathy and emotions. And but we have to change things. And I think in a way we are very teenagers, uh, because that is the— yeah, that, that is the brand. Like being like, oh, so dramatic. Yes, we are teenagers.

But you could, you could also say passion, right? It's, uh, it's a country with passion, uh, whether it's It's a great time or a bad time. It's a country that we have the expression, where it's hard on its sleeve, right?

Yeah.

Well, as we wind down, Mely, this has been so much fun. As we wind down, the organization you mentioned a few times, Girls in Tech, but there's a Spanish name for it. Could you just let our audience know where to find that if they were interested in it? Where could they find that?

Yes, it's an NGO and you can also help, help in a way like you could teach something. And I think chicasontecnologia.org for organization. I think the challenge is not only to teach programming because we are all on that. We did, this is not useful anymore because we already use artificial intelligence to program things. So the thing is how to change the leadership. And so that's why people could help and trying to give some inspiration and give some way of, okay, we believe in teenage girls and they could do things, but also we could, we have the chance and the opportunity to create another kind of leadership. And my dream is this connection of a teenager, that girl that is from Latin America, and try to have that kind of mindset in the industry, because that is why, um, this NGO works. But also how we could, you know, give some things, not only, you know, a donation or something like that. So, uh, we are writing a society, uh, the history, a new history, a new chapter. And so we have that chance. And that, that is my invitation. You could do many things, but the first thing is get involved and try to change your mindset about— think, listen. We also have some podcasts. And one thing that for me was shocking when I worked there, um, When you ask to a teenager girl, have you got a problem? Or for you, what is a problem? You have to be very brave because teenagers girls in Latin America have a lot of things and they share their issues and they are not so simple. So sometimes they think, oh, they are a stupid generation. They don't deserve to, you know, this kind of things. But no, the problem is that we haven't got enough tools or the listening thing to try to work together to create different opportunity to these people.

Very inspiring. And I think that also inspires our audience. Thank you for sharing that. Well, as we wrap up today, I wanted to thank our sponsor again, Nearshore Direct. Go nearshoredirect.com, a great way to find talent all across Latin America. Meli, such a pleasure. I had a really fun time. Hopefully we can have you back sometime as well.

I enjoy a lot. Thank you, Brian, for this invitation. And I hope people, I don't know, think differently about Argentina and also diversity and technology. Thank you for, for this opportunity again.

Absolutely. Well, our next podcast, we release every week, so we'll see you again soon. Thanks everyone for listening.

Thanks for joining us at the Nearshore Cafe podcast. Tune in next week for a new episode featuring another special guest with exciting stories.

Mm.