How Leadership, Language, and Nearshoring Fuel Cultural Adaptability and Business Success in Latam

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Nearshore Cafe podcast. We are in season 4. This is our lead-off episode to season 4, and we're going to go in a little bit different direction. Uh, we're really lucky to have Denis Champagne on the show today. And Denis has lived a really interesting life and has a lot to share about the world of nearshore, especially from an anthropological, sociological angle. Before we do that, let me thank our sponsor. That's Plug Technologies, plugg.tech. Great way to connect talent from all over Latin America with growing US companies. Denis, thanks so much for joining us today.

Thank you. Appreciated, Brian, for being invited.

Absolutely. Well, Denis, I know right now you are in a leadership role guiding companies on sales strategy and all sorts of things that you've picked up on your experience. I think what our audience would love to hear is how, how had this all started from a Latin America standpoint? Like how did, when did you first get exposed to this world and kind of tell us the origin?

Well, it started very early in high school. You know, there's a point in high school when you walk around the corridors at the beginning of the season to choose your courses. And having been born in Ottawa, a bilingual city at that time, more than now, coming from a French-Canadian background with on one side an English neighbor and a Protestant Anglican church in front of the house and French-Canadian Catholics on the left, I was exposed to bilingualism, and so I was fluent at a very early age. And so languages and music, because I think both have, you know, shared values, music and language. Language is musical. And so I was walking down the corridor in high school trying to find courses to take. And I saw in one room lots of good-looking young ladies. And I said, what is that course? It's Spanish. I said, well, let's go to Spanish. So I started studying Spanish because of young ladies and I had a good time and it was musical and, you know, Hispanic and Spanish-speaking culture has a lot of, at its core, music. So that's when I started kind of really understanding Latin American and learning the language and the origins and with two other languages as background, it helped me to kind of orient myself and put things together and say, okay, that's why this is the way it's said in English. And the way it's said in French and have two points of comparison for all of it together, right? So that's how I got to appreciate that.

Yeah. Did you feel like Spanish came pretty quickly to you because of that language background?

Well, it's partly, but also my musical ear. I was playing flute in the high school band, so I was musical. So that helped a lot to like the musicality of speaking Spanish.

Yeah.

There is some rhythmicity and some, some cadencing and some sequencing and some, you know, ups and down kind of inflections. So that was fun. It was different, right? But I tell you, the girls helped a lot in the motivation.

Travel. What was your first exposure to Latin America? When did you first visit?

Well, I visited actually Venezuelan friends in Ottawa, where I'm from. Or was from, I am from, and that time one of the university used to have summer integration of English as a second language, I guess a 3-month venture. So kids from all over the world. So I would end up in a party there because I walked down the street one day and I heard Spanish. And after 2 years in high school, I said, I ran and made a V-line for those guys and they ended up being from Venezuela. And they invited me to the parties because they were part of the 3-month venture there and it ended up staying longer. I would have met from people from Africa, from Sweden, from everywhere. And I said, Ottawa is a nation capital and we have a lot of tourists came to Canada, Ottawa, namely. And so at the parliamentary area, I would see all these people and hear all these noises and these sounds. So I was already attuned and kind of you know, sensitized. So it was fun. And I went to Miami to visit them because a lot of Venezuelans at that time had a lot of residences in Miami. And it's only a little bit later that I went to Dominican Republic, Cuba, and the Caribbean, you know, for spending a week on the beach. And it's only when I met a young lady. In the early '90s in Ottawa, who's from Venezuela as well. And we got married and I got married for, we lived together for 6, 7 years. We divorced and my current wife for 12 years now, we just celebrated our anniversary last week of 12 years.

Congratulations.

She's also from Venezuela. So Venezuela was kind of the core because I studied in university as well, civilization courses and advanced grammar courses. So to understand a language, you understand the soul of its people. So I could tell you, because I speak German as well and Italian, and I could tell you some things about the Italian thinking or the German thinking that kind of has congruity, congruence with the actual language or how the thinking has been structured.

Yeah. Tell me about your, your first impressions of Venezuela. And, you know, I think people that are watching the news today see a Venezuela in chaos. What was it like when you were visiting, you know, a few decades ago?

Yeah, the economy was different. I ended up being there in 1990. In 1990, you know, there was, you know, a certain president, and but there was still the military still lurking in the background. South America as a whole, if you want to compare South to North America, South America were conquered, then they were colonized. North America was first colonized, then it was conquered. And that makes all the difference between North and South America.

Can you, can you go, go a little deeper in that? I think this is a really great jump-off point.

Well, you know, when we arrived, or the French, my family is from 360 years ago in Canada, right? So I, I have that kind of, I guess, leeway of time. To be able to give some. And I don't know everything about my ancestors. I know who they are on the paternal side from 1660 to now. Wow. But I can't tell you exactly what they did on the day-to-day basis, on a monthly, on their lifetime. But I know that they came on account of the French government or the French king and the English king. And they were coming to discover, you know, when we make discovery calls in sales, right?

What are we there?

We there to discover, to and who says cover, this cover means there's a cover. So you lift up the COVID and there's something you find inside. So they found things. It was, you know, obviously commercial and trying to find, you know, a place of habitation or habitat. But we had time to get settled in and to entrench ourselves in that part of the world. Whereas in South America, they were just completely annihilated faster. And I mean, I could go country by country with specifics, but I won't because it's too much. Because in my civilization course, we went through those kind of pre-Columbian stories. But I think that, and this is based on my readings of a famous philosopher, Octavio Paz from Mexico, who wrote a book called The Labyrinth of the Solitude. And it's really a kind of a depiction of how South American and the, what they say, tristeza indígena, which means the indigenous sadness, how they feel still raped and robbed. Yeah, it was rough. So my heart fell for them. And I think that the joy that emanates from South American cultures that they, they have bounced back and they have an amazing wealth of youth, brilliant youth, and the Montreal International Film Festival 30 years ago, I saw a documentary called High School and it was Latin American kids in New York, in the Bronx, in Spanish Harlem. And they're the ones that were given the best notes, the best rewards, and the best marks. And 92% of them went to university.

Yeah.

There's something in their brain and their minds, their, their, the elasticity, the neuroplasticity. That I find extremely inspiring in South America. Just the actual literature and the plethora of languages. They are an amazing continent with so much, talk about diversity. Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia have nothing to do with one another. It's completely another world. Venezuela. Well, they have 70 islands. They have 4 climates. They have the most beautiful women in the world. Set the beaches. They have gold. They have the largest petroleum sources in the world. That's right. They have diamonds. They, they, they have the highest waterfalls, Angel Falls, Kanaima, a river where half of the side of the river is piranhas. but they never come on the other side of the river and you can swim.

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

With pink sand. So, and the food and the joy and the kinds of psychographic depiction in Venezuela. You know, Venezuela means Little Venice.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Small Venice. So as the lieutenant of Christopher Columbus, his name is Amerigo Vespucci. Amerigo, that's why they call it America. So. You know, one tried to sell the sizzle, the other one produced the steak. Right. Vespucci closed the deal. And when they arrived in around the Maracaibo area of Venezuela, they saw those houses in the water. They said, oh, Little Venice, Piccola Venezia. From there emanated, you know, and in obviously indigenous language, just like Alabama is an indigenous word, Canada, Ottawa. They're all indigenous, you know, surely enough. Two days ago, it was the National Day of Truth and Reconciliation here in Canada for the residential school issue and everything else. But anyhow, to come back to Venezuela and to South America, it's just extremely rich, a lot more rich than we think, and a lot bigger than the actual map on the—

Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to, I think you're a great guest to talk about maybe like the pre-1900s South America and the post-1900s and like how pre-shaped what we see today.

I'm not quite sure I'm the best person for that, and I don't want to pretend that I know.

I think you studied a lot of the civilization.

Well, I studied pre-Columbian and post-Columbian versus pre-Columbian.

Okay. Maybe, maybe we'll divide it that way. Yeah.

Yeah. Pre-Columbian was very, uh, obviously 2,000 languages.

Yeah.

The Inca Empire is just nothing but the amalgamation of many conquests of many races and languages under one kind of, you know, empire, the Inca Empire. You know, there are still certain languages still alive, but many of them have died with its people. I guess there were, there was a lot more peace before the Spaniards arrived. Yeah.

Yeah.

The Spaniards, they were the worst. I mean, you know, the conquistadors, they just completely back, you know, destroyed everything. Just in the name of God and the sword, you know, they will, you know, obviously recognize their own. That's the way they said, just like they did in the Inquisition in Spain, right? With the Jewish and with the Catholics and Sister Isabella. Right.

Yeah.

So, uh, a lot of their music has this kind of folklore of feelings of the past, but they're very resilient. And I find that for humanity's sake, forget about just South America. There's a lot of resilience. People are very resilient. Yeah. You'd be surprised how much you can take. Once you're put to the test.

Yeah. I'd love to dive in deeper here, you know, cuz what you said a few minutes ago about conquered versus colonized, conquered versus colonized.

Yeah.

And you know, there's, there's this kind of identity, you know, or maybe an identity crisis or, you know, like, who am I, who am I mapping to? Right. And you study genealogy, like, as you talked about with, you know, at the, at the beginning of the show, how might that be helpful in businesses, companies that want to get established in Latin America and in kind of understanding the population and obviously nuances country by country, but, you know, macro-wise, what would you say?

Well, I don't think it applies differently anywhere else. I just try to understand where they're coming from. Yeah. Ask them about the food. There are some things that they eat, you know, in Venezuela that is really, really popular. In Christmas time, but it actually was a concoction of food left for the slaves. And they made this a national Christmas meal. So whatever lemon they were given, they made lemonade with it. So it's kind of what I say, poison into medicine, right? Whatever life throws at you, you can transform it. And they made it a source of joy. And they are more of a collectivist society. We are more individualistic here. People live in their own place. They don't want anybody. You need to call me before you come over. You know, when I was young, my, our door at the house was a swinging revolving door. People come in and out all the time. My mother, ah, sit down, have a coffee, you know, whatever. So that doesn't happen anymore. It's like, it's somewhat saddening. And, you know, we have probably friends from all over the world instead of having next door. Most people don't know each other's neighbors next door to each other. Yeah, I'm in a condo and short of a few people, I don't know many people on the street.

Yeah. Would you say that's different in Latin America?

They know everybody knows everybody.

Yeah. Yeah.

And they'll, they'll stick together for each other, right? As the socioeconomic profile changes of different individuals, there tends to be a little bit of a distancing. But, uh, in my in-laws, a party is like 50 people and they're all family members.

Yeah.

And every Saturday night they all dance, they put music on, they have food, they celebrate life. They really enjoy life much more than us.

Yeah. Agree.

Agreed. Yeah.

Denny, how about the Caribbean part of Latin America versus the maybe more European part of Latin America? What, what are the differences that you see?

Well, yeah, the, that, that's an interesting, like I, I've never been to Chile. I've worked with Chilean. Salespeople and sales teams. I have close Argentinian friends. As a matter of fact, I have one friend who's landing tomorrow from Argentina who actually lives in Spain now in Valencia. And she's here for some business in North America. And, you know, she, she's very European, you know, the demographic profile, the psychographics are different. Chile is very much kind of a mix. They are a very small country, but their actual temperature and their climate is similar to us in Montreal. So that's why we've had a very strong influx of Chileans moving to Canada in the '70s with what happened with the regime there, Pinochet. So Argentina has been, you know, populated a lot with the Italian communities and Italians went down there for the the meat and the railroad. Those two populations, notwithstanding Uruguay and Paraguay, they're in a particular section of the, of the, of the continent that's different. They're right on the frontier of Brazil.

Right.

And Argentinians would not let the Brazilian Blacks come in.

Yeah. Yeah.

Again, you know, human behavior is pretty well the same everywhere else, you know, racism. Is real everywhere without talking about our neighbors to the south. Everything that's going on there is based on racism. Bring it back to what it was.

Yeah.

Without getting too political, but so it's your love for people. If you love interchange, discovering, listening to new sounds, new flavors, who wants to eat oatmeal every day for the rest of your life? I like lobster. I like, you know, raisins. I, you know, I want the rainbow of life, right? To, to be omnipresent. And we eat all kinds of food here, but it's always, because I lift weights, my wife lifts the weights, we are very, very focused on good quality organic meat. We don't, and we don't compromise on that. Um, you know, I'm 91. People wouldn't be able to say that I'm 91. Um, Denise, you, uh, loving people, loving people.

Yeah. Yeah. Denise, you've worked with a lot of salespeople and coached a lot of salespeople. Are there different talent pockets in Latin America that you might recommend like a, a closer look at?

Well, if it's technical, like there's technical sales and there's consultative or relationship sales. You know, there's all kinds of terms and words that they're using now, right? AI interjecting there and bringing a new flavor, flavor of the week, of the month with terms. So you have to be careful with the semantic hairsplit about that. Right. But at the end of the day, it's a lot of individuals who can, I think the, I look at IQ, I look at TQ, technological quotient. I look at EQ, emotional quotient, but probably where I found the brightest talents were AQ, adaptability quotient. They adapt. They're able to take a situation and make something out of it that was not there in the first place.

Interesting.

Kind of commercial alchemy. I don't know, behavioral, social alchemy, you know, take a piece of copper and make it gold and you know, just by virtue of the way they are. I think people, I think that looking to hire salespeople, it's not always the most bombastic, outspoken. The good listeners is the people who say, I don't know how to do this, but I'll learn and I'll get it done. I love what Richard Branson teaches us. Whenever you're asked something, just say yes, even if you don't know how to do it. And it predisposes you to assimilate and then learn the things that you need to learn to do what you need to do.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. How might you advise North American leaders to get the most out of their teams in Latin America if they choose to nearshore?

Well, right now is welcome them because they are bright, the youth of South America. First of all, there's more youth there than anywhere else. I would say India is probably, and Africa, are two of the great continents with youth. Their birth rate is very high. They're not going hungry. You know, they're struggling, but they're not completely going hungry. The poverty around the world has reduced itself. South American young people are brilliant, and there's so much choice. There's so much to pick from. It's really a circus. It's a smorgasbord. Enjoy it, you know, and encourage them. And you'll find some of the most amazing talents. As a matter of fact, one of the biggest contracts I ever got was during a podcast like this where I was interviewed. It was only 20 minutes. I answered several questions in 2019 and their number one rep for North America was a Mexican who did his MBA at McGill University and reached out to me to introduce me to his VP of sales, thought what I was saying and what I spoke about was worthwhile and relevant to what he saw. And he did it for his team. He's not even a manager or he doesn't even benefit from it, but he cared enough for the rest. And so I got a contract, I worked with them, and then I ended up coaching in South and North America and in APAC. And this guy has now tripled his income and he's no longer with that company.

That's great.

It's called the law of cause and effect. When you create causes of nobility in your life, it comes back to you.

Yep. Karma. Yep.

Absolutely. I'm a practicing Buddhist, as you know, so that's the foundational principle of our life, of our practice.

I like that. Let's end the show on some travel. I'd love to hear, you know, about a trip or two that you've taken to Latin America, favorites, anything interesting that you'd like to share.

Well, you know, I have to say that, you know, my family has now moved, my in-laws, my sister, my, my, my stepdaughter, my granddaughter are in Medellín in Bogotá, Colombia. They moved from Venezuela 10 years ago because of all kinds of obvious political reasons. So I went to Medellín and met our friend Amir and I fell in love with Medellín. It's a great city. I would move there. Matter of fact, we may, we may end up selling and moving there because quality of life is, you know, and I can, You know, I can build business there and maybe help me or whatever, but, uh, the eternal spring. I loved Mexico, Cuba. Cuba was more on the beach, you know, there's old, it's an old history and it's repeat itself. Yeah, those are the places I really enjoyed. Obviously in Venezuela, I travel all over. So anywhere I went, it was absolutely gorgeous, the mountains or the beaches. And the food, the food and the people, you know, it's not a very original kind of explanation for you, but, you know, you can go, I, I've, I met people from Montenegro and from Serbia who are also wonderful in their own way. I always try to look for the good. So it's a boring, it's a boring answer. I'm not entertaining here at all.

No, it's okay. I, I, I think, uh, I think we, we can feel from your presence that, you make the most of your trips and you've been to quite a few places.

Yeah. And my best trips often were alone when I was alone. Yeah. Because I could really be me and only me and it dragged, it drew me into places and situations.

Wow.

I'm just kind of, I'm very blessed. I, if I die tomorrow, I'll be, I'll be in peace.

Yeah. Yeah. By the way, just a thought as you were talking about your, your language fluency has nothing to do with nearshoring, but the Quentin Tarantino movie Inglourious Basterds, I don't know if you're familiar, Christopher Waltz, I guess.

I love Eilert Mann.

Yeah, he was trying. Tarantino was trying forever. He thought he might never make that movie. And then he finally found someone who could act and perform and speak all those 4 languages, English, French, German, Italian. Yeah, yeah, yeah, those 4.

He is unbelievable, unbelievable actor. I love him. And he was also in, what's the other one with Django Unchained?

Django Unchained, yeah. Yeah.

Wow. Brilliant actor. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, we'll, we'll close on that. Thank you, Denis. Really enjoyed the conversation today. Let me thank our sponsor again, Plug Technologies, plugg.tech. Great way to connect talent all over Latin America with growing US companies. This is the Nearshore Cafe podcast. We'll see you again next time. Thanks, everybody.