God's Punishment Explained

If God doesn't discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you're illegitimate and are not really his children at all. Now I'm going to tell you a story. This will blow you away. I was in a youth camp in Texas. Kids are down there weeping, crying over being sexually loose and stuff like that, giving their hearts to the Lord. And kids were really encountering the presence of God. The last night came and the Lord showed me how it was going to be an outpouring of the Spirit. And I was so excited. And I remember I walked into the service and it was just like a wall. And I'm like, what? And I said, God, what's going on? And the Holy Spirit said, there's one more person I want to reach. And he said, call them forward. A few more kids came down, but that heaviness wouldn't lift. He said, the person I'm after has still not responded. And then the Lord said something to me. He said, tell the person if they don't respond, I'm going to punish them. And all of a sudden I knew. I said, you're going to be in a head-on car collision wreck if you don't respond tonight. Hey everyone, welcome to the Jump of Fear podcast. I'm here joined with my son Arden. Arden, it's good to see you. Okay, we've been on a little bit of a break and both our hair is longer. Oh yeah.

I mean, the show hasn't been on a break, but you went on sabbatical, which was good.

Lisa and I went to Italy a couple of weeks.

You look more Italian.

I do.

You look darker.

That's a compliment.

You got the orange linen shirt on. It looks very good.

Yeah, I'm embracing my roots, my Italian roots.

Yeah, good.

I will say, it's so weird. DNA, genetics are a real, very real thing. I mean, when you— when I land in Italy, I feel like in a sense, you know, it's, it's, it's home. I know my real home is the throne of God, okay? That's, that's our home. Our home is the city of God. Yeah.

However, when I land in Italy, I do feel like, oh, You breathe a little easier. Yeah, it just seems like I'm around people that I'm familiar with.

It's interesting. Yeah, no, it's good. And you gotta admit, I mean, God says every nation, every tribe's gonna be before the throne. So God enjoys the variety of nations. What he hates is the division, the offense that comes with different nationalities. And we see a lot of that in America. We see the media trying to stir up that strife to where we don't celebrate each other's differences, we fight over it.

Yeah, well, I'm excited because obviously you've been away for 6 weeks and you come back refreshed and excited for the things that God has put on your heart. So I know this is going to be a great podcast.

Well, you know, we're continuing on, and to me, I've had 6 weeks to really think about this, and we're talking about the churches in Revelation. Now you say, oh, is this just going to be a teaching? No. These churches, you got to remember these churches are 7 churches. And I marvel because all the words of Jesus that we have in the gospels were spoken in a futuristic way to Jewish people that were going to become the church. He even said, I have things that I need to share with you, but I can't, and you won't be able to understand it until the Holy Spirit comes. But once we look at these words in red, I mean, think about it, there is a couple, I think there's one place in 2 Corinthians 12:9 where God says, "My grace is sufficient for you," and those words are in red. And there's another one that says where the Lord said, "It's better to give than to receive." That's the only two red letters you're gonna see in the epistles until you get to this apocalyptic book of Revelation. Now you've got, All these, these two chapters, chapter 2 and 3, all in red letters.

Yeah.

Which means they're right from the mouth of Jesus. This is the resurrected Jesus speaking to his church. So, you know, I just— I'm going through all the edits of the new book I'm writing that comes out March 3rd, 2026, called The King Is Coming. And it's about the second coming of Jesus, but it's more about being prepared.

Yeah.

And my editor said, I think now two times after going through the whole manuscript, I'm so glad you wrote on the seven churches.

Yeah.

I don't hear them preached enough.

No.

And yes, they're historic churches, but God never would have put these in the Scripture if they didn't apply to today.

Yeah.

And you talk about Sardis. Wow. I shiver in my boots. I— when I wrote about Sardis, uh, in the new book that's coming out, The King Is Coming, I literally— I remember distinctly coming down to breakfast with, I think it was with Lisa, or I might have been on a trip, and I was speechless. I was so shaken. Now I will say, this church, Jesus's message, he has used it in the past, the Holy Spirit, to rivet me and really bring correction to my life. This is the one that seems to really hit home hard. And so I pray that the Holy Spirit gives you and I the ability to properly communicate this in a way that will bring life. And this is what our whole team was praying, that this will bring life to you. This will impart life to you. This will protect you for what's coming. So first I want to ask some questions. Yeah. And I just felt like the Holy Spirit said, ask these questions. Number 1 question. Question: does God correct us?

Does God correct us?

Does he correct us? Number 2, does God punish us? That's different.

Yep, that is different.

Okay, is his punishment— if he does punish us, is it painful? Yeah. And if it's— is it for the purpose of recompense, to repay our disobedience? I'm going to answer that one right now. Absolutely no. It's for our good. Yeah. Okay, and Finally, what is God's discipline? What does his punishment look like? So in order to really set this Sardis church up and the ones that are coming, I want to go to Hebrews 12, where the writer of Hebrews actually deals directly with God punishing his children, all right? And so I'm going to read from verse 5. Have you forgotten the encouraging words? Now everybody remember, this is encouraging. This is not discouraging, this is encouraging. These are the encouraging words. God spoke to you as his children. He said, my child, don't make light. Now, make light, do you know what that word actually means? To regard with little value. Yeah. Don't make light. So don't regard with little value the Lord's discipline and don't give up. Now, that's interesting. In other words, you're going to be tempted to give up when you're going through the Lord's discipline. Don't give up when he corrects. Now, the word corrects in the Greek is mind-blowing. It is the Greek word paidia, and this is right from one of the top Greek lexicons. This is the definition: to punish for the purpose of improved behavior. Yeah, I'm going to say that again. Don't give up when he corrects. The word corrects means punish for the purpose of improved behavior. So don't give up when he corrects you, for the Lord disciplines those he loves. That can't be emphasized enough. Yeah, this is about the people God loves, okay? And he punishes. Now, this is a different Greek word. It's the Greek word mastijo. I'm probably butchering this, all right? If my friend Pastor Steve McGallus was here, who's full Greek, he would be laughing at me right now. All right. That word, I can read the definition from the lexicon, to punish severely, implying whipping and even scourging. Okay, so I'm just reading what the dictionary says. All right, for the Lord disciplines those he loves and he punishes each one he accepts as a child. As you endure, so there obviously is endurance through this, okay? "This divine discipline," same word, "padia," to punish for the purpose of improved behavior. "Remember that God is treating you as his own children. Whoever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father?" Well, unfortunately today, that's a quite a common phrase.

I was gonna say, I think that's a pretty normal thing now.

We don't, I just recently was with a couple and the daughter talked to the mom and dad like they were trash. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't even talk to a peer like she talked to her parents. Mhm. And, um, I got into sharing with them, and I remember watching the mother sit her down and try to reason with her.

Yeah.

And Arden, as a youth pastor, I remember way back in the 1980s, it was interesting. We had to counsel the families in our youth group because our senior pastor was world-renowned. He was traveling all over, and we we had to do all the counseling. I had three, three different scenarios of families. I had the family that all they did was try to love their children out of their problems. Their kids were in such a mess. Yeah, they spoke so dishonorably to their parents. And then I had the families that disciplined harshly their children. Yeah, their children resented them. More of a punishment, like, yeah, they were angry. Yeah, the parents were angry when they did it.

Yeah.

Then I had the families who disciplined, spanked their children— I'm just gonna say it— yeah, and loved them.

Yeah.

And they never came to my office. And those kids, in following them— I mean, this is 35 years ago they're in very healthy places today. Yeah, I remember I was speaking down in Brazil and Arden, I'll never forget this. My translator down there has a ministry that goes to the entire nation of Brazil and it's very successful. And I must have been preaching on Hebrews 12, but he pulled me back after the service and he said, you know, my next door neighbors, I watched them raise their children. Their kids got anything they wanted. They had all the minibikes, they had all the go-karts. They never got disciplined. He said, my parents, I was so, so frustrated. They disciplined me. They were strong with me.

Yeah, they didn't just give him anything he wanted.

He said, I watched my next door neighbors. They got strung out in drugs. They became alcoholics. Yeah. One of them's even in jail. He said, I look at my life and I see how God is, protected me. Yeah, from all these pitfalls they fell into because I had parents who disciplined me.

Yeah.

Hey everybody, we'll get back to the episode in just a moment, but first I want to thank the patrons who make this podcast possible. Your support behind the scenes is critical to sharing these messages, so thank you. To become a patron, just click the link in the show description or go to johnbevere.com/patron now. Let's get back to the show.

And I think it's important too, because I think in my generation, there is a lot of people, like you said, that were punished by their parents and they were scolded, but it was not out of a place of love. And I think what you said is so important is that we don't swing the pendulum, because I've seen that where a lot of people that I see, they're like, well, no, you would— you need to— you need to really, like, connect with your child on a way that's going to understand what they're feeling in those moments. And we talked about this on Mom's podcast. And there are people who are saying, this is the way you need to do it. But yet they have kids that are 2, 3, 4, 5 years old and you don't know what it looks like when they grow up. And I watched as you guys did that so well. And I think this is important because then obviously when God— when we receive correction, whether it's through a pastor or through a teacher, if we weren't raised in the right way, we hear that correction and we'll either just completely shut down to it, to what God is probably trying to speak to us of, hey, you need to do this because why? Because I had a negative interaction with correction when I was growing up because of how harsh my dad or mom was to me. And we see it through that lens. And it's important that we have to see correction in the correct way and discipline and punishment in the correct way of understanding everything, right? It's going through, The punishment is for the purpose of improved behavior. Like, yeah, I want improved behavior. I never want to stop growing in my behavior. I never want to start getting better. And then the punishment is going to help me understand that something is wrong. Like, I need to— I need to have that. That's a scary place, is just if I'm continuing to go down the same track of doing the wrong things because it leads to kids that are getting caught up in all those things.

So I remember we got better at this every single child. So you're the youngest of 4. But I remember when we spanked you, we would then hug you and say, "I love you and we did this for your growth." And so—

It showed that you guys loved us.

I just was so struck by this this morning as I was praying, preparing, "Whoever heard of a child who is never disciplined?" And I thought if the writer was writing this today, he couldn't have said that because there are so many families that do not discipline or punish their children. If God doesn't discipline you— now this is verse 8— as he does all of his children, it means that you're illegitimate and are not really his children at all. So this is, this is the thing: if you've been disciplined by the Lord— and we're going to talk about what this looks like once I read this— if you've been disciplined by the Lord, you can jump up and down and realize you're actually a true son or daughter of God in Christ Jesus, that you're actually not a fake or a false brethren, as Paul would call them, somebody who says I'm a Christian but really isn't. So basically, you know, I remember when I turned 50, Arden, I prayed and I said, God, if there is anything, anything displeasing to you in me at all, I said, you're the one that searches my heart. You know me better than I know me. I said, burn it out, shake it out, punish it out, do whatever you got to do. I remember that was June 2nd, right, on my 50th birthday. That summer is one of the hardest summers I've ever lived through in my entire life. And I remember I was on the phone with one of our very wise board members, and I told him, you know, it was— I'd already gone through 2 months of it seemed like hell on earth, and just nothing. I was just obeying God, and I'm going through hell on earth, right? And I remember I told him, I said, yeah, I prayed this prayer on June 2nd when I turned 50. I said I wanted my halftime. I'm at halftime. I felt like I was at half-time, right? And the football team always wants to play better on the second half than the first half. And so I was like, God, okay, I'm at halftime. I think somebody had just written a book about halftime, right? And so I said, okay, I'm at halftime. Whatever needs to come out, burn it out, shake it out, punish it out, right? And my board member laughed and says, that's the prayer you pray when you're in your 20s, not your 50s. And I remember him saying that, but inside I said, God, I'm so glad I prayed it because I want to finish well. So I'm just glad that we're really his children. And that just means we're all going to be disciplined if we're really his children. If we're not, I can't get off of this. I'm preaching at a church. It's jam-packed. There's 2,000 people in the building. This is way back in 1990. And I brought forth this very strong prophetic word on repentance. And I happen to notice this woman, and she had like a 16-year-old daughter sitting in the front row. And the woman, I could just tell the Spirit of God was just like the Word of God was chastening her, punishing her. And the daughter's just sitting there like this, rolling her eyes and everything. I'm like, wow. So the pastor looks at me, he says, I can take you to a restaurant, or we have a prominent woman in the church and she's an Italian and she really cooks well and she's got a meal prepared for us. We're going to the Italian woman's house. So we go there and lo and behold, you know who it is? It's the woman in the front row.

Yeah, of course.

I'm like, this is amazing. And she was like, Arden, she couldn't stop talking. Oh my gosh, John, I wanted to fall on my knees. I wanted to weep. I realized in my life God was dealing with things about you, right? And I'm just so rejoicing that she realized that it was all out of God's love that he was dealing with her. But she looks at me and goes, But my daughter, and towards the end of the message, just goes, when is this guy going to be finished? He's so loud and he's so— she said something else. It wasn't complimentary, believe me. And I thought to myself, how interesting. This woman is a true child of God. The daughter isn't. Yeah, the daughter goes to church. The daughter probably prayed the sinner's prayer, but she's illegitimate. She really hasn't surrendered her heart probably to the lordship of Jesus. I mean, this is, you know, Jesus said, you'll know them by their fruits, right?

Yeah. Can I ask you the question is, what's the difference between that and like an immaturity in terms of obviously it's younger girl, but like even what we're looking at right here where it says it's punishing and the word specifically is to punish for the purpose of improved behavior, kind of, you know, someone asking that question of like, well, is it that I just have not improved my behavior? Maybe I am like, I know I'm a son of God, I know I'm a daughter of God, but Where am I sitting with that?

Well, of course we can be going through discipline and just like a young person really not like it at the time. Yeah. I saw this 'cause this girl came home for the dinner after her mom said that. Yeah. And I saw that she really didn't love Jesus. You could see it. Jesus said, you'll know 'em by their fruits. The way she talked, the worldliness, the way she dressed, everything about her. Yeah. Even a legitimate child can be going, I don't like this. I mean, you guys didn't like it when we punished you, right?

Yeah, totally.

Okay, so, but it was very evident with her. And the thing is, Aimee Semple McPherson prophesied something back in the 1930s that I think is so true today. She said, I see the church right before the Lord returns, and I see the righteous and the wicked worshiping God together in the same house. Now if you look at Malachi chapter 3, he talks about the wicked, he talks about the righteous, and he said Jesus would come as a refining fire. Now that's punishment, that's discipline. He would come as a refiner's fire, and he said once he does, then you're going to recognize the difference between the righteous and the wicked, the one who serves God and the one who doesn't. In other words, before the punishment, the refining comes, you're not going to be able to tell the difference.

Yeah, that's so fascinating. Can I even ask onto that? Because I feel like the other side of that is humility, obviously, is understanding, like, God gives grace to the humble. And I can kind of like looking in that situation is the girl probably lacked a level of humility. And I think even with correction, when you understand correction, it could even be done out of like natural correction, obviously worldly correction. It can be done out of the wrong heart of a parent doing that. But if you have accepted humility, you understand like you can accept punishment for what it was or what it is if you have the correct heart in you. So like your, you know, your parent could be disciplining you in the wrong manner and the wrong heart. But yet if you have that humility that God gives, then you are able to receive the punishment for what you need to out of it and not not be resistant to it, of what still could be coming from that. Does that make sense?

Yes, it does.

Yeah.

Yeah, it absolutely does.

So I think—

So?

No, I was gonna say, so I think that's kind of another end of the maturity that's happening and growing into that.

So verse 9 says, since we respected our earthly fathers who disciplined us, shouldn't we submit even more to the discipline of the Father of our spirits and live forever. For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. And boy, I'm telling you that that statement means so much to me because I wish there were so many ways I would've changed, especially with our oldest Addison. I think by the time we got to you, we had learned some things, but still I was still growing. But God's discipline, now this is interesting, verse 10, but God's discipline is always good for us, always good for us. So that we might share in his holiness. So what's the end result of discipline? It is to have more of the character of God, his holiness. In other words, he is a holy God. What does that mean? He is set apart from his creation, right? And the Bible tells us to be holy as he is holy. So the purpose of discipline is so that we'll come out of it more godly. When I prayed that prayer, I gave God the permission, come in, Jerk it out, punish it out, discipline it out. And what happened was I think I became more mature after about that 3 months of discipline. All right. Yeah. Now, no discipline is enjoyable while it's happening. It's painful. Now, that's right from the Bible. I'm even going to go to the Greek. The Greek word painful there means grief, sorrow, a state of mental pain. So it's painful. But afterward, there will be a peaceful harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way. Verse 14 then goes on to say, work at living in peace with everyone and work at living a holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord. So discipline is extremely important. Yeah. Okay, now This is a good transition into the church of Sardis because the very core of what Jesus is addressing with this church is holiness. Okay, so let's first of all talk about Sardis. All right, and I'm going to tell you, this may take another podcast. I don't want to rush this one because again, I feel like this church, if there was a church that really is more alike the American church, it's got to be Sardis. All right, it fell under Roman control in 189 BC, so almost 200 years before Jesus's ministry on earth. By the first century AD, it was known for its emperor worship and had an impressive temple, and that temple was the Temple of Artemis. Okay, Sardis. Now this is, this is amazing. It was one of the most pleasant places to live in the ancient world. It was a center of worldwide trade and one of the most affluent cities in the world. So Sardis would be like Newport Beach, California. It would be like Manhattan, New York. It would be like a— it was a really affluent society. All right, even in the pagan world, this is interesting. Sardis— and I'm reading right from the commentaries— Sardis had a reputation for materialism. That's interesting. And decadence. The pagans there were extremely accepting and didn't care if you worshiped their gods or not.

Interesting.

They just wanted to make money and have a good time. That's straight from the commentaries.

Yeah.

Okay. So interesting. They didn't care. So what does that tell us right up front? This church isn't persecuted. Yeah. You look at Pergamum, You look at Philadelphia and they were persecuted. Yeah. All right. This church— and you look at some of the others, Thyatira was as well as Pergamos. Mm-hmm. This church wasn't persecuted. Now, I think about the American church. We're really not persecuted. We can— we can go into a crowd and we can preach the gospel right in downtown, you know, right in downtown of a major city, Nashville.

And people will go, okay, Yeah, I mean, you might have a 1 or 2.

That's your way. Yeah, you know, I'm into my— yeah, right. So very much like us. Now, the society of Sardis rubbed off on these believers, unfortunately in a negative way. Rather than taking advantage— and this is, I think, now my words— rather than taking advantage of the lack of persecution and the abundant resources that the church had to be more effective in building the kingdom, the church became more worldly. All right. Now, this kind of sets up the stage for what we're about to hear, because I'm going to read the entire message. So Jesus— remember, all these words are read in the Bible. Jesus says, write this letter to the angel, which means messenger or pastor, bishop, elder of the church in Sardis. This is a message from the one who has the sevenfold Spirit of God and the seven stars. I know all the things you do and that you have a reputation for being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what little remains, for even what is left is almost dead. I find your actions do not meet the requirements of my God. This is Jesus speaking, okay, not a pastor. Go back to what you heard and believed at first. Hold to it firmly. Repent and turn to me again. If you don't wake up, I will come to you suddenly as an unexpected thief. Yet there are some in Sardis, and this so describes the American church. You have some in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes with evil. Boy, we're going to talk about that one. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never erase their names from the Book of Life. 'But I will announce before my Father and his angels that they are mine. Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.' All right, are you ready to go through this step by step? And by the way, we're never gonna— I'm gonna, I'm gonna go just through a couple verses because this is so strong. I don't want to try to do this all in one podcast. So Jesus opens up by saying, I know the things you do. All right, I wanna share a story. Years ago, I would almost venture to say it was almost 20 years ago, I was in prayer one morning before ministering on a Sunday morning and Art and I heard the Holy Spirit ask me a question and I heard it so clearly. He said, son, do you notice that I didn't say to one of the 7 churches in the book of Revelation, I know what you believe? And I went, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. And I go grab my Bible. It was a physical Bible because 20 years ago we didn't have iPads and computers. And I grabbed my physical Bible. I opened it up. I looked at all 7 churches and I saw, I know what you do. I know your works. I know your works. I know the things you do. And all of a sudden I realized. And then the Lord said this to me. He said, did you notice I didn't say I know your intentions? Yeah. And I went, wow. So he's not examining our intentions, although he is, because our intentions will be exposed at the judgment seat. He's not looking at our belief. He's looking at how we live. I know the things you do. I know how you're living. So this is what he's looking at in all 7 of these churches. So if you look at all 7 churches, either from the NLT or the New King James Version, You will find out in all 7 churches, he'll either say, I know what you do, or I know your works. All 7. That is mind-blowing. So I'm going to say this again. It's not what we believe. Yeah, it's what we live.

Which can I even ask that question of like, you know, unpacking the difference for people of a faith or belief-based faith versus kind of an action-based faith in what you're saying?

Good question. So I'm going to go to the book of James to answer that. James says, "So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone." Now, I'm going to make this even stronger. I went to a very, very much of a grace-oriented church. Like, I'm grace. I love the grace of God. I want all the grace of God I can ever get. This was kind of a hyper-grace church.

Well, we say— what you say is we feel like it's actually undersold grace, not hyper-grace. It's undersold.

I like that better. Yeah, because grace empowers us to live a godly life and we've undersold it. Yeah, we said it forgives our sins, salvation, we say, but it really empowers us also to live a life like Jesus lived.

Yeah, because you're hyper-grace, I would say.

So I'm in the hotel room before going to this big church in the Northeast. And the Holy Spirit says, I want you to open up. I had my whole message ready. I don't know if I had a PowerPoint or if I had my notes, but the Holy Spirit changed everything. He said, I want you to open up with James 2:24. And I went over to my Bible and I looked at James 2:24 and I went, what? He said, I want you to read that verse. And so I remember getting up in front of this church and I read this. So you see then we are shown to be right with God By what we do, not by faith alone. And I paused, and you could hear a pin drop in that church, and the facial expressions were like— now I want to bring clarity, okay? You can repeatedly tell me that, that there's power in that outlet over there. I'm looking at that outlet right over there in our studios here. You could tell me till you're blue in the face there's power in the outlet. But you know what the proof of it is that there is power in that outlet? I take a brand new blow dryer that works. Yeah. And I plug that blow dryer into that outlet and I turn it on and hot air comes out. Mm-hmm. That is evidence that there really is power.

Yeah.

Because I could tell you there's power in that outlet. There's power in an outlet. There's power in an outlet. And I put a brand new blow dryer in there and it's dead because there's no power in the outlet. So you can tell me till you're blue in the face, I have faith, I have faith, I have faith, I have faith, I have faith. Jesus is my Lord. I prayed the sinner's prayer. But James is saying the evidence that you really do have faith is the fact that your life is gonna be changed. Because let me just ask you some questions. I want you to listen to what I'm asking right now, and I want you to be honest with yourself because Paul said, examine yourself to see if you're really in the faith. He said that to the Corinthian church, which by the way, is another very worldly church. It's a very carnal church. Is your life different than before you believed? I need you to ask yourself that. I have to ask myself that. Is your life different than before you believed? Do you stand out in a lost world or do you blend in? Are you advancing the kingdom? If not, you have a faith that is not real by heaven's standards. Grace is not at work in you, for true grace is not ineffective. And I'm going to read this scripture, 1 Thessalonians 2:13. When you receive the word of God, which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the not as the word of men, but as in truth, the word of God, which the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. What is it? What is it doing? It's transforming you. Okay? This is why we can't emphasize enough. This is why on this podcast, we're going to preach the word of God. We're going to preach the word of God. We're not going to talk about current events and philosophy and, you know, inspirational stories. Those do help people for a day or two, but the Word of God changes you forever. The Word of God is powerful, it's mighty, it divides between soul and spirit. It is what brings life into your being. The entrance of his word, the Bible says, gives life. Jesus said, "Man lives by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." The word of God will effectively work in you and it will bring change. If you're not changing, then I question, do you really have faith? And this is what James wrote. And this is why Martin Luther was so upset about the book of James, because James is basically saying, "Okay, you say you got faith, but you don't have corresponding obedient actions. I will show you that I really have faith because I'm doing it." I do walk like Jesus walks is what James is saying. I do have corresponding obedience. Yeah, I miss it once in a while and I deeply repent. I ask people to forgive me that I'm not saying, are you perfect? Yeah, I'm just saying, are you being transformed from glory to glory into the image of Jesus Christ? That's God's goal for us.

Yeah, I think it's just going back to the improved behavior. Like, I think it's not putting, you know, one of the things that we talk about for work is you identifying people on the team that, like, if there's people who just don't want to grow, it's really hard to continue to have that individual, you know, do the work that they need to do. Why? Because they just are complacent with where they're at. And I look at what we talked about earlier about correction and punishment is understanding the sole purpose of it was what? Improved behavior. And I know there's people that are like, man, I'm trying, I'm really trying. And it's like, well, Are you looking at yourself and saying, I'm trying, but I'm just staying stuck in the same spot? I'm continuing to allow the same things just continue to keep tripping me up, or I'm not continuing to get in the word to renew my mind. I'm not having these things happen. But then also there's the improved behavior side of things where people can look at it and say, you know what? Maybe I'm not seeing the things that are unfolding in my life that I'm hoping for, but I'm not where I was. And we have to look at those things and say, no, God's done a work in me and I'm seeing correction and behavior actually take root. And I'm encouraged by that. And I also wanna make sure, because what I'm saying there too is I don't wanna diminish the wonder-working power of a transformed life and how quick that can be, because I think sometimes people can diminish the work of God and say, well, it's a process. And it's like, no, God can impact a person's life in a moment. He could have a one event happen.

That transformation is based upon you cooperating in obedience to the word of God.

Yeah.

I will say, you know, For 6 years I battled pornography and that led to habitual masturbation. And I remember every time I just fell on my face and said, "God, I'm so sorry." And I was, I was so deeply sorry. But I remember the day I got free from it, May 6th, 1985. I've had people, they've said, "Well, would you have gone to be with Jesus had you died in 1983?" Yes, absolutely. I was in the fight of faith. But let me tell you something, I lacked the revelation to be free, and I could have gotten that revelation in the first year had I really taken it seriously like I did in the sixth year. First year, I was just like, I'm just not married. It's okay. When I get married, it'll be all right. Then I got married and it happened again. I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, da da da da. And then all of a sudden I started taking it seriously. So I believe if I would have taken it seriously, it wouldn't have been a 6-year process. There are people that, yes, their transformation process is slower because they're not digging in like they should. That doesn't mean they're not true believers. Yeah. Okay. And I want to make that really, really clear. Yeah.

Because—

but, but I will say, even though I'm— I was battling this, my mother looked at me 3 years after I got saved. She was so upset that I got saved. She was, you know, Catholic woman, prayed the rosary every night. She was so mad. She was so upset. She said, you go to Bible school over my dead body. She wouldn't even invite me to my dad's retirement party because she thought I would witness to the people there, right? Yeah. But you know what she said to me 3 years later? She said, you've really changed. I said, Mom, I told you it's Jesus in me.

Yeah.

Now, when your own mother says you've really changed— now, I was still going through that battle, don't get me wrong, and I wasn't taking it lightly. Yeah. All right. I'm going through this battle. So I don't want people walking away going, oh my gosh, am I really even saved? When you're really in the midst of a heated battle with something.

Yeah. Well, can I even ask too, on the other side of that, I'm kind of going even off our conversation we were having at breakfast yesterday, is the people who feel like, I feel like I'm in a wilderness where it just feels like I'm not sensing the presence of God as I was before. Like you asked all these questions of, you know, is your life standing out before you? Do you stand out in the lost world? Are you advancing the kingdom? And it's like, honestly, I've been just, desperate for the presence of God. And I'm seeing like that, and I can't answer those questions. Hopefully, like, what, what's kind of the difference into that?

Honestly, the wilderness is a proving ground. It's a testing ground, I should say. It's a preparation ground. That is where you obey God when you don't feel his presence. Yeah. And that pleases God. One great man, I think it was Hudson Taylor, and I might be wrong on the man I just quoted, but he said one step of "Faith is worth more than 1,000 steps of feelings." And what he was referencing to is when you don't feel the presence of God and yet you still obey. As Paul said, Paul said, he said, "As you have obeyed not only in my presence, but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is God's word to us. So this is God saying to me, "As you obey not only in my presence." It's easy to obey God when we're in the conference, we're at church, we're in the Bible study, presence of God is there. It's easy. What about when the presence of God isn't there and it's 11 o'clock at night and you're surfing the web? Okay, and you run across pornography. Are you gonna obey then? So in essence, I believe it brings greater pleasure to our Father when we obey when we don't feel his presence than when we do. Now, we have already gone 40 minutes and I wanna bring a wrap on this because I asked the question, what does discipline look like? Mm-hmm. Okay. Now, I want to make sure we discuss that. We're going to have to pick up with Sardis next, next week. But the discipline of God is very interesting. First, he disciplines us with his word. He will try to reach us with his word. I can tell you so many times I've been in the prayer closet and God has said something about my behavior that day or said something about my behavior with a pastor. Yeah. And I've gone, it's like a knife hitting me. And I went, oh my gosh. And I've repented. Okay. His highest, his preferred discipline is the pain we feel when his word exposes something stupid we just did or a stupid pattern of behavior. Yeah. That's why I said I have been in tears reading these letters because the Holy Spirit was exposing patterns in my behavior that were ungodly. And I've just been in tears. That's his preferred discipline. But David says, when I didn't obey your word, I was afflicted in the book of Psalms. So in other words, if we don't listen to his word and we don't allow his word to correct us, yeah, the next step is affliction. Paul said to the Corinthian church, he said, for this reason, many are sick, weak, and die prematurely. Why? Well, let me go to it. I want to make sure I'm not misquoting him. Okay. We're going to go to 1 Corinthians, the 10th chapter. It's not chapter 10, it's chapter 11. All right. And so Paul makes the statement that anyone who eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord unworthily is guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. I don't believe he's just talking about drinking grape juice. There are other ways of sinning against the body. When I, when I treat you wrong, I've sinned against the body of Christ. Okay. Now, that is why you should examine yourself before eating the bread and drinking the cup. For if you eat the bread and drink the cup without honoring the body of Christ, you are eating and drinking God's judgment upon yourself. That is why many of you are weak and sick, and some have even died. But if we would examine ourselves, if we allow the word of God to examine ourselves, repent, Stay humble before God. If we would examine ourselves, we would not be judged by God in this way. Yet when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined. There's the word disciplined, so that we will not be condemned with the world. So God is saying, I'm much more concerned about your long-term health than I am about your immediate comfort. Now I'm going to tell you a story. This will blow you away. I know some of you will just like go, ah, but I will never forget. And I think I've shared this with you before, Arden, is, is that I was in a youth camp and this is back in the 1990s. I was in a youth camp in Texas and it was a very large church, one of the largest churches in the United States. And there were a lot of youth there. And I remember the first night was all repentance. Kids are down there weeping, crying over being sexually loose and stuff like that, giving their hearts to the Lord. It was so wonderful. The next night It was wonderful. The next night, it was wonderful. But all 3 nights there were kids repenting of just their worldliness, their disobedient lifestyle, their ungodly behavior. Right. And kids were really encountering the presence of God. The last night came and the Lord showed me how it was going to be an outpouring of the Spirit. And I was so excited. And I remember I walked into the service and it was just like a wall. And I'm like, What? I'm thinking God just got— God showed me in prayer. He's going to like— this is going to be a powerful service tonight. And I said, Lord, what's it? I prayed with all the youth. They were all in there, packed in there. They're so anticipating. And I said, God, what? What's going on? And the Holy Spirit said, there's one more person I want to reach. And he said, call them forward. I thought, I have called kids to repent every single night for 3 nights. This is 4 nights.

Yeah, I love that.

But I said, okay, I said, guys, we— God is wanting to really bless tonight. And I said, we can't go because there's one person. You haven't repented. Yeah. You have sat through 3 nights and you've sat there belligerently with a stiff neck and you have not repented. And said, but— well, you know what happened? A few more kids came down, but that heaviness wouldn't lift them. I said, God, what's going on? He said, the person I'm after is still not responded. I said, okay. And then the Lord said something to me. He said, tell the person if they don't respond, I'm gonna punish them. I'm gonna discipline them and punish them.

Interesting.

And I went, okay, if you don't respond, God says he's going to discipline or punish you. Nobody comes down.

Yeah.

All right. Lord said, tell him what the punishment's going to be. And all of a sudden I knew. I said, you're going to be in a head-on car collision wreck if you don't respond tonight. Hmm. Arden, I'm trembling in my boots. I'd never done this since. Yeah. Before. I'd never done it since.

Yeah.

But I know he said, tell him. I said, if you don't respond, you know who you are right now because the Spirit of God and conviction's all over you. If you don't respond, you're going to be in a car collision, a head-on car collision wreck. No response. All of a sudden, that heaviness lifts. And we had the most powerful service that night. The power of God was so strong. Kids talked about that night for years, and it really changed young people's lives. 6 months later, I get a call from the youth pastor. He said, John, I've been wanting to call you, but— actually, it was 3 months later. Forgive me, I'm getting 2 stories confused. 3 months later, I get a call from the youth pastor. He said, I wanted to call you immediately, but I wanted to wait. He said, do you remember the last night? Do you remember you said what the punishment would be? I said, yeah. I said, I'm thinking he's calling to really let me have it, right? I instilled fear into his kids and all this kind of stuff. He said, 3 weeks after that night, he said, there is a girl that I have had more problems with her than any other girl in the youth group. He said, she has been a thorn in my side. He said, she was in a head-on car collision accident. I'm like horrified.

Yeah.

He said, John, She lived through it. In the hospital, she repented, and for the last— she is now on fire for God. Now, I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

No. Which, I mean, of course, that brings up a lot of questions that I have.

I mean, I'm open to it. Ask questions. But isn't that interesting? God protected her life. Now listen to what Paul said. He said, That is why many of you are right here. Let's listen to Paul's words again. Verse 10. Excuse me. Verse 30. That is why many of you— many. Do you notice he doesn't say a few of you? Yeah. Okay. That is why many of you are weak. Remember, this is a church that really isn't listening. This is a church that Paul has said, examine yourself to see if you're even saved. Yeah. This is a church that's suing one another. This is a church that's got people in the church. He's sleeping with his father's wife and nobody's doing anything about it.

I even say that too, off what you said, this is a church of people suing one another. They've done that recent study, or I mean, it's like proven evidence that holding offense leads to poor health and all these other things, physical, emotional, and spiritual, of holding an offense. So you're seeing that actually demonstrated, and science actually proves that.

Yes.

Yeah.

All right. This is why many of you, not some of you, many of you are weak, sick, and some of you have even died. "But if we would examine ourselves, we would not be judged by God in this way." In what way? Sick, weak, died. "Yet when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world." Now, did God give that girl a car wreck? No, 1,000 times no. Okay, but if you look in Isaiah, God says, I've created the blacksmith to create blows. God just lifted his hand of protection and the enemy who kills, steals, and destroys came in. But God says, uh-uh, just like he did with Job, you're not killing her, she's my daughter. I see that she's eventually gonna repent. And this is where Paul comes in and says, Oh, the ways of God are beyond understanding. There are times he is God and he chooses not to reveal. But I will say this: God didn't give her a car wreck. I believe he lifted his hand of protection to the degree of the car was vulnerable, but she was protected. He protected her. Yeah. And, and yet out of that, she didn't listen to the word. I was afflicted when I didn't obey your word, David says. Her affliction caused her to wake up because what happened was she heard what the punishment would be. She saw the punishment and she became on fire. Yeah.

If I remember correctly, it was either you or a friend of yours, a pastor who was preaching, and they were really trying to go after one individual and he left that night on his motorcycle and then ended up getting in a car wreck. And he actually had passed away.

Yeah.

And, um, that was R.W.

Schambach. Yeah. 3 times he went to a young man.

3 times.

3 times. He's, he's, he, he had thousands.

Yeah.

And he kept being drawn over this young man and said, young man, I, I, I'd never do this, but you need to make a decision and give your life to Jesus. So in that instance, and that young man was killed.

Yeah. And in that instance, you feel like the punishment there was not going to lead to repentance. And so I don't know why Potentially.

Is that— I can't answer that one. Here's the way I see it. I have a responsibility right up until somebody leaves their body.

Yeah.

I can't do anything after that. You know what I always say to people? They're in the hands of the most merciful God, merciful being in the universe. Yeah. Let's just hope for his mercy on this one. And I could tell you incidences where people actually died, went to hell and cried out. And were revived and brought back. And so what I'm saying is I would much rather be disciplined by listening to the word of God than disciplined by being sick, weak, dying prematurely, going through hardship right now. I want to say this. I've gone through terrible hardship in my life, and it wasn't because I was disobedient. It was because God was wanting to train me. Yeah. David went through 12 years of hardship. It wasn't because of his character. It was because God said, "I want to give you the character to be a great leader." Now, I want to make this really clear. Paul said, "For this reason, many of you are sick, weak, and die prematurely," right? He doesn't say, "For this reason, everybody that's sick, everybody that dies prematurely is being disciplined by the Lord." He doesn't say that. Okay? Because remember Jesus, okay, the disciples look at Jesus and says, Did this man sin or his parents sin that he was born blind? Jesus said neither one. So there are situations where you got godly people, they're going under attacks. And Arden, there's been times I've gone through extreme hardship and I wasn't in disobedience. It's called the wilderness. And the wilderness is hardship, but it's a hardship that prepares us. If you look at Joseph, Joseph's really not disobeying God. I mean, he's got a few character flaws that God says need to be matured. So God allows him to go through the hardship of the 10 years of enslavement, of slavery, the 2 years of the dungeon, right before God says, now you've got the character to handle it. Yeah, David wasn't in disobedience. David's got to live in wildernesses for 12 years. So David's not being punished for the way he behaved. No, God is preparing him. So we've got to learn. And, and I know this is— we're really going deep, all right? And I'm, I'm going to give some books for you guys to reference because this is really This is the deep aspects of the Word of God. But I feel it's important to talk about because people get bitter against God. They may be going through a wilderness where God's saying, I want to train you, right? For if you look at Israel, God's saying, you've got— you've gone through a year of wilderness. Now go in and take the Promised Land. He had trained them, got them prepared, ready. Now they're complaining.

Yeah, they weren't ready.

And now they said, we can't do it. And they— and they ended up dying in the wilderness. So you can't shorten your wilderness, but you sure can extend it. Jesus wasn't in disobedience. The Spirit of God led him into the desert to be tempted by the devil. So there is a suffering that people go through, okay, that is not because of disobedience. It's not because God's punishing them. It's because God's training them or because he wants to show his glory. So if you look at these hardships, sickness, all this other stuff, there's 3 different scenarios that could be taking place. So you can't look at a human being and say, oh, you're going through this disease right now is because some area— in some area of your life, there's sin. That is wrong. That's like the disciples saying to that, that, that, that guy was born blind because his parents sinned, or he's— no, it was neither one. It was so the glory of God could be manifested. So this is where it takes spiritual discernment. Yes. If you disobey, disobey, God convicts you in his word. You're this— for this reason, many of you are sick, weak, die prematurely. He doesn't say for this reason all of you are sick, weak, die. Prematurely, because there are some people, they're going through a hard time, a wilderness time, or that God's glory can be manifested. But bottom line, don't be a person that despises the discipline of the Lord. Don't be a person that when you're reading the word of God and it convicts you to ignore the conviction, listen to it. Yeah.

Yeah. So good. And I think even kind of what was discovered is that people who hold on to offenses and like science actually proves this, they have more trouble with health things. So it's like the word of God being proven true is what God's showing is, hey, look, you're probably offended with your brother. There's holding onto these things. This is why you're probably enduring these things. So it's good for us to remember that.

Here's a general rule of thumb. If you're out of fellowship with God, you're disobeying and you know it deep down inside. You even have a brother or sister come to you and try to warn you. You've been warned, been reading your Bible, and you just keep not listening, and something like this comes on you, chances are really good you're being disciplined by the Lord. Yeah. I just had dinner the other night with a man of God in Europe. Oh my goodness, this guy is on fire, and he's 62 years old. But he told me, he said, I didn't obey God's call in my life. He was an Olympic swimmer. And he said, "I broke my back." And he said, "God got my attention and I repented and I walked away from a life of what I wanted to do and I obeyed the call on his life." And now that guy for 4 decades has been just impacting people like crazy. I wish he didn't have to have a broken back. But you know, God is so much more concerned about your condition than your comfort. Yeah, God can heal a broken back, and he is. The guy's got full mobility. He, he's fine. Yeah, but he said, that was unfortunately the price I had to pay for not obeying God. I remember Lisa and I, when we, when we moved to Nashville, um, there was a prophet of God who called us, and I respect this man. I mean, he came out of the Word of Faith roots, but he just, he's a man of God. I'm not saying people that are in the Word of Faith roots aren't men of God and women of God. I'm just saying this guy really is sensitive to the Spirit. And he said, John and Lisa, if you would not have obeyed God's call to go to Tennessee, you would've paid for it. He didn't say you would've paid for it. He said you would've went through some very hard times. He said, I'm so glad you were sensitive and listened. I just think it's good to obey God.

Yeah, I agree.

You know, Eve thought she could pick out what for her life, what was better, right? Yeah. She said, hey, that fruit's good for me. It will make me wise. It's just when we realize God is the wisest being in the universe, he has the greatest insight, the greatest understanding. And then when he tells us to do something, he's not trying to hurt us. He's trying to actually help us.

Yeah.

And he says, you know, I care about you so much. If you choose to go your own way, I'll get you back one way or another, either through my word, sending somebody to warn you, or you might have to go through what that little girl went through in that youth group. But, you know, she's on fire for God, last I heard. Yeah. So anyway, I know this has been quite heavy. I want to recommend just— there's two books that I've written that I go into this in more depth, the first book is called "The Awe of God," A-W-E of God. You can get it on Amazon. The second book is called "Killing Kryptonite." So think about Superman, Superman, right? It's recently come out again, "Killing Kryptonite." Kryptonite is what caused Superman to lose his supernatural powers. That book really, really impacted a lot of people's lives, but I go into this aspect of what we're talking about in depth in that book. So anyway, if you wanna do some more study, go for those books. Until next time, I'm really hoping we can get into the church of Sardis next time. We barely— we didn't even really touch it, but we'll, we'll get to it. I just don't want to rush it. We love you so very much here at the John Bevere Podcast. God bless you.