Rewards in Heaven Aren’t All the Same

The day we start living for eternity as believers is the day we're born again, not the day we die. So there are people that are actually going to enter into eternity. They're going to have no rewards. They're going to be saved, but they're going to be like somebody coming through a wall of flames. In other words, like, can you imagine somebody retiring and their house burned to the ground? They lived, but their house burned to the ground and they lost everything on the day of their retirement and their bank closed and their Social Security went bankrupt. They have nothing to show for it.

I think some people get really scared of that and they get scared about, well, how do I know I'm doing the right thing? How do I know that I, I'm doing things that actually matter? And I mean, what would you framework down of doing eternal work versus just doing things that are carnal?

I think the whole problem stems from— I want to thank the patrons who make this podcast possible. I may be the one you hear, but as the Apostle Paul reminds us in 1 Corinthians, the unseen parts of the body are just as important, if not more important, than the ones we see. Your support behind the scenes is critical to advancing this mission. So thank you so very much. If this podcast has strengthened you and you're not a patron yet, consider helping produce and spread these messages. Your monthly contribution will help us reach more people with timeless truth. Plus, you get some great insider perks, including live Q&As with me once a quarter, as well as some other exclusive content. To become a patron, just click support this podcast in the show's description. Hey everybody, welcome to the John Bevere Podcast. I'm here joined by my son Arden. Arden, it's good to see you today.

Always good to see you, Dad.

All right, and we are having a blast, and I am so excited about today's discussion because we're going to talk about, hey, can people be Christians, both Christians, but have different outcomes short-term and long-term? Because this is something we're dealing with a lot today. We see a lot of people that they really are genuine believers, but they're kind of on the fringe. And then you see these people that are, I mean, all out going for Jesus. And what's the difference? Well, I think Peter tells us the difference. And so we're in our study. We've been doing this for, I don't know, 10 sessions on 2 Peter. We are going to continue on with 2 Peter. And I'm not starting from the beginning because we end up going into all kinds of discussions. And I want to get to the main point of this one. Which is what's the different outcomes, both short-term and long-term, of a carnal Christian and an on-fire Christian who walks closely with Jesus? There's a difference, and Peter points it out. So Peter says in verse 4 of chapter 2, for God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment. And God did not spare the ancient world except Noah and the 7 others in his family. Noah warned the world of God's righteous judgment. Notice that he was a preacher of righteousness and warned of judgment. If you look at Paul, Paul the Apostle, he's talking to a very influential man, and he warned him of what? Righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come. False teachers will always shy away from judgment. They'll diminish judgment or eliminate judgment. Be very careful with that because it is part of the tenets of our faith. So God protected Noah. So this is what I wanna highlight. God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of the ungodly people with a vast flood. Jesus refers to the days of Noah many times when he's talking about his second coming, when he comes to judge the living and the dead. He talks about as in the days of Noah. So it's gonna be right before I come, okay? What did God do? He protected Noah. Mm-hmm. It doesn't say— Jesus never talks about as in the days of Lot. Yeah, Jesus doesn't talk about Lot except for the fact that Lot's wife turned back and became a pillar of salt. And remember that. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of the ungodly people with a vast flood. Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He rained fire and brimstone on them. He made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people. So here's an example. Ungodly people are going to face a fiery judgment, and Peter talks about this extensively in chapter 3, and we will eventually get there. So did not spare means that he implied he didn't forgive them. It implies that he didn't forgive them. So all three get judgment: the angels, Noah's generation, Sodom and Gomorrah. Okay, now let's keep reading. 2 Peter 2:7-8. 'But God also rescued,' hear the word rescued. So he spared Noah, he rescued Lot. 'God rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was oppressed.' Okay, now that word oppressed is the NLT. The King James, New King James uses the word torment. Let's just go to the original Greek word. It means to be distressed. To be, now listen to this, with the implication of being worn out.

Yep.

All right, another Greek dictionary, which is the Complete Word Study Bible, means to wear out or wear down.

Yeah.

So he was a righteous man who was worn down.

Yeah, tormented day after day, mine says.

By the shameful immorality of the wicked people. Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was torn down, worn down, tormented, worn down, in his soul by the wickedness he saw and he heard day after day. Now, and, and by the way, the word oppressed, it was the word tormented that I was quoting. All right, let's go back to Lot. One was spared, one was rescued. Okay, there's a difference between being spared and rescued.

Yeah. Okay.

Rescued because of what Lot chose to get into. Yeah. So I could say he was delivered. Yeah. All right.

Now, also, do you feel like failed to confront? Because Noah— I mean, this, this scripture specifically in my Bible says a preacher of righteousness.

Yes.

So Noah continued to preach righteousness as he was building the ark and tried to hope that more would come to salvation.

—but Lot was probably silent until they wanted to have sex with the angels.

Yeah, but then he offers up his daughter as compensation.

He's really perverted. Yeah, right.

And so, yeah, I feel like it's a little bit of that as well, where Lot tolerated what was going on rather than bringing restoration and healing.

Okay, let's look at Noah. He walked with God. Do you know who else walked with God? Enoch. Enoch. God loved Enoch so much, he took him. He didn't even see death. Yeah. So obviously this guy Noah is walking very close. Yeah. Look at the fruit of Noah. Okay. He condemns the world by his righteous living. The Bible actually says he condemned the world in Hebrews 11. I mean, it's crazy. Okay. So in other words, because he showed the world you can walk closely with God even in this fallen world. Yeah. Now here's Lot. Let's talk about Lot's story and, and compare the two. Abraham and Lot. Lot is Abraham's nephew. They get so wealthy. God's blessing is so great on them. The blessing on God— or excuse me, the blessing on Noah comes on the blessing— or that blessing comes on Lot, and Lot is a beneficiary of Abraham's blessing. Yep. They get in strife. Their herdsmen get in strife. So Abraham, being the godly man, says, you pick wherever you want to go. Wherever you go, I'll go the other way. Yeah. So now listen to what Genesis 13 says. Lot took a long look. This is so important. He took a long look at the fertile plains of the Jordan Valley. Yeah. This was before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. This is Genesis 13:10-11. Lot chose for himself the— now listen to this— the whole Jordan Valley, and Lot moved his tents to— now listen to this— to a place near Sodom and settled among the cities in the plain. Now what's interesting is when God comes and says, I'm going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, and Abraham prays for the deliverance of Lot, when the angels come, he's not in tents near the city. He's actually living inside the city. So that tells you and I something. You know what that tells us? That the world has a drawing effect. That if we flirt with the world, it will draw us in. This is why John says, "Don't love the world or the things of this world. For if you love the world, the love of the Father is not in you." All the world has to offer, the pride of life, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes. Okay, they're alluring. It will draw you in. So here's Lot, who starts out on the plains, ends up inside the city gates. Yeah. All right, now let me say this. He chose— he took a long look. Do you want to know why I believe he was taking a long look, Arden? Because he is weighing out in his mind, wow, those fields are fruitful. They are abundant. They are luscious. Can I go down there and enjoy the lusciousness of that area and not be drawn in to the world? Yeah, fully interesting. And he couldn't do it.

He eventually ended up in there.

It drew him in. And I, I look at— we have believers let's say they work in a factory, let's say they work as a lifeguard, they see people that are—

Professional fighter too.

Professional, whatever they're doing. Yeah. They see lewd things. Yeah. Maybe on a daily basis in their work. They hear lewd things on a daily basis in their work. They're on their mission going into all the world to preach the gospel because that's their area God's called them to, right? Mm-hmm. They didn't choose that. Lot took a long look because he chose that. Hey everyone, I wanna share the tool I use when I'm preparing messages, writing, or studying the Bible. It's called Logos. It is a powerful Bible study platform that lets you access commentaries, devotionals, and Bible dictionaries all in one place. The latest version actually uses AI to provide answers from your trusted biblical resources. Plus, it's now easier to use with plans starting at $9.99 a month. Visit logos.com/bavir to start your free extended trial today. Now let's get back to the podcast. So this is what I say: when you choose to watch a movie that has immorality, language, all these things that offend— yeah, that Jesus literally had nails driven into his hands to set us free from. When you choose to watch that, you're gonna wear down your righteous soul. Now, what's the outcome difference? That's what we have to ask. If you look at Noah, he's got descendants that are great, descendants like Abraham, David. He's got Daniel in his lineage. He's got Jesus. If we look at Lot, what happened with Lot? The angel delivers him and his family out. His wife is so attracted to the world because of his decision to live there close by, she turns back and becomes a pillar of salt. That's why Jesus says, "Remember Lot's wife." No fear of God, even after being warned of this judgment to come, she still wants to look back. She still misses her lifestyle back there. So he loses his wife. Mm-hmm. So then his daughters and him go up into the mountains and his daughter, oldest daughter, looks at the younger daughter and says, hey, we gotta have sex with our dad because we don't have any guys.

We have to continue.

And we gotta continue his seed. Yes. Right. So, so they get him drunk and the oldest one goes in, has and seduces her father. Yeah. They have sex together. And he gets pregnant and he has Moab. Yeah, the child's name is Moab. He became the father of the Moabites. The Moabites were the, the people that worshiped Chemosh. Okay, Chemosh demanded that they sacrifice their children to satisfy him. Okay, now you've got the younger daughter, the next night gets pregnant. She has the father of the Ammonites. Okay. The Ammonites also served a god called Milcom. Milcom also required their children. So in essence, sacrificing their children for their pleasure. What's happening in America? We're sacrificing our children for pleasure, for the pleasure of the mother, the dad, the family, right? Okay. What has happened to our nation? Our nation is, we have gradually veered into the system of the world. We forsook the word of God, we forsook the commandments of God, we forsook prayer, and now we've killed millions and millions of our children for the sake of pleasure. This has been the outcome of a carnal church in the West. And this is something that happens individually, as well. If you look at Lot's life, his outcome in the long run wasn't good. His descendants, look at his descendants, right? All right, if you look at Noah, Noah's outcome is good. Now, what does Paul say in regard to Christians? He says that we build our lives on the foundation of Jesus Christ, the Lordship of Jesus. Lordship means he is supreme in authority in my life, And whatever he says, I'm going to obey it, even if I don't understand it. That's the attitude you have to take, right? And it's a delightful attitude. It's a joy to keep his commands. I mean, I've been serving Jesus for 46 years and I love him more today than I did the first day I started serving him, right? Okay, so he talks about building. We build our lives off the foundation of the lordship of Jesus. Now, the problem is there's a lot of people that are quote, Christians in America, they don't have the foundation of the Lordship of Jesus. No, they have the foundation of church, they have the foundation of gathering, they have the foundation of what they call a faith, but it's a different kind of faith. It's not the faith of Jesus Christ being the Lord. But let's talk about this. Lot was a genuine righteous man. So let's talk about people that are building their lives off the Lordship of Jesus, right? But yet they're building it off of Jesus but not the Lordship. Let's put it that way. Okay, so Paul says they can build with wood, hay, or straw, they can build with gold, silver, or or precious stones. What's that symbolic of? Wood, hay, and straw means I'm gonna just live for my pleasure, my flesh, what the world lives for. Gold, silver, precious stones deal with the eternal. I'm gonna stick with the eternal word of God, right? He said, but on judgment day, fire. Wow, okay, what does Peter talk about in 2 Peter chapter 3? About fire, fire judgment. Fire will reveal what kind of work each builder or believer has done. The fire will show if a person's work has any value or if their life had any value. If the work, their life's work, survives, that builder will receive a reward, an eternal reward that will never, ever, ever fade away. Wow. Okay. But if the— I mean, Arden, I got trophies. You know, I played, yeah, varsity tennis at Purdue. I played varsity tennis in high school. I played the USTA circuit. I had a ton of trophies. You know what I did? I threw them all away. I remember I had a whole shelf filled with trophies, right, of winning tournaments and all that stuff. I threw them all away because I realized when I became a believer, I was like, this stuff doesn't mean anything to me anymore, right? Now don't get me wrong, if I won Wimbledon, I wouldn't throw that away, okay? But what I'm saying—

there's nothing wrong with keeping TV trophies.

Yeah, that was 40 years ago.

You felt like they were taking up space, right?

Yeah, taking up space. I don't need—

we're not saying trophies are bad.

These rewards, they never end. Yeah, think about it. You get a reward, and the reward, whether it's a position, whether it's your dwelling in heaven, whether it's the people you get to work with, yeah, it will never change. Okay, that's the eternal reward he's talking about. "But if the work is burned up," so in other words, if the believer, if their life's work, because they've lived like Lot, if it's burned up, "the builder will suffer great loss." Not just loss. Now, if the Bible says great loss, it's pretty big. "The builder will be saved." In other words, it's gonna be like Lot, he's gonna be saved out of that judgment, gonna be saved, gonna make it to heaven. But like somebody barely escaping through a wall of flames. So there are people that are actually gonna enter into eternity, they're gonna have no rewards, no eternal rewards. They're gonna be saved, but they're gonna be like somebody coming through a wall of flames. In other words, like, can you imagine somebody retiring and their house burned to the ground? They lived, but their house burned to the ground and they lost everything on the day of their retirement and their bank closed and their Social Security went bankrupt. They have nothing to show for it. These, there are believers that because they chose to live like Lot, they're going to suffer the consequences. And I think the whole problem stems from our lack of the eternal perspective. We're living for the 70 or 80 years. We don't realize we're really living for eternity right now. The day we start living for eternity as believers is the day we're born again, not the day we die. That's good.

Which a lot of people— I mean, that's a hard concept for them to understand because so many things are instantaneous in this world. It's temporal. It's things that, OK, we, we want this right now. And understanding that we don't live for the things that are instantaneous. We live for the things that are eternal. And eternal things are things that are built on through a lifetime of faithfulness, a lifetime of consistently doing the same thing or consistently doing the things that you read within scripture that you know God is putting on your heart to do. I do think, you know, you've obviously preached this for a while and we've talked through that, is I think some people get really scared about that and they get scared about, well, how do I know I'm doing the right stuff? How do I know that I'm doing things that actually matter? And I mean, what would you kind of framework down of doing eternal work versus just doing things that are, carnal, depending on the Holy Spirit.

When I pray in the morning, I pray and I ask the Holy Spirit, lead me today, make me effective and fruitful today. And then I get in the Word of God and I let the Word of God read me and I let God speak to me through his word. And I trust that he will lead me. See, that's faith. Not only comes into believing God is, but he's a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. Now, diligently seek him doesn't mean I spend 4 hours a day in in a particular spot in my prayer closet. It means I'm seeking him constantly. Yeah. And God says he will reward. So faith says he not only is— okay, all people believe that God is, but he's a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. So if I'm really seeking to glorify him, to please him, to humble myself under his mighty hand, to believe his word whether I understand or not, now what am I doing? I'm setting myself into a place of reward. Now, scripture tells us, and this is 1 Timothy, and this is really important, godliness has the promise of the life that now is and is to come. Now, I just talked about the is to come, the world to come. There are gonna be people that are gonna have eternal ramifications because of decisions they made in this life. But he didn't say godliness is profitable just in the world to come. He said godliness is profitable in this life. Now, I've been walking with Jesus for 46 years. I can honestly say I have seen his rewards in my life over and over and over again with the peace I walk in, the joy, with the fact that I used to be an absolute selfish person and God transformed me into being somebody who cares about other people. Why do we sit in front of these microphones? We want people to be strong. We want people to be cared for. We want people to hear the word of God. Why do I travel? Why have I traveled 10 million miles? Well, yes, there's a call of God in my life, but I want people to hear the word of God, to experience the presence of God. Why have I gone to prisons and preached in prisons? Why have I done soup kitchens and given food away to hungry people? Because I care about people. Originally, when I was first a Christian, I'd do some things and you know why I was doing it? Just because I was hoping it would earn me favor with God so I would get a better position. That was wrong motives. I wish I could go back and do it all over again. Why would I go into a soup kitchen now? Because I love people. That needs to be the motivation. The love of God compels us, the Bible says, and that compels us to serve people, to love people, to honor people, to not get in division and strife, and to live in that harmony that the kingdom of God provides. I have been rewarded in this life. I'm only 65. I feel like I'm 35. I feel like I got the energy of a 35-year-old. I look at people, other people are 65 and they look like they're 20 years older than me. Yeah. What is it? It's not me. I would have looked just like an old man had I not walked with Jesus. I'm not saying if you look like an old man, you're not walking with Jesus. Please understand that. Yeah. What I'm saying is there's so many rewards that come from serving God diligently, obeying him, listening, doing what he says. And that's what I want people to hear. And that's what I want people to take away from this. Lot's trying to have God and trying to have the best of the world too.

But he doesn't love those people around him. Like, if Lot truly loved those people around him, he would not allow them to live in that sin that they were staying in. And instead of calling them out and getting them out of that sin, he moved in, into their world, into their lifestyle. And I'm not saying he partaked in their lifestyle because it does not specifically say those things. But Noah continued to preach. He was a preacher of righteousness, and he continued to preach because he still, regardless of what he knew was coming, He still hoped that those people would get out of their bondage, get out of their unrighteousness, and turn to God.

So if you look at it, I mean, we are told in 2 Corinthians 6, don't team up with unbelievers. Don't be unequally yoked together.

I mean, we are supposed to— Unequally yoked together. This could open up a big thing. Okay. 'Cause marriage, obviously. There's people who are out there that are married and they're unequally yoked. I mean, how do you navigate that? Because there's a lot of people I've seen prayer requests coming to the ministry where they're praying for their spouse and they're, God, please, please do something.

That could have happened one of two ways. It could have been somebody that married in disobedience. Yep. And they married somebody that wasn't saved, hoping they would change. Hoping they would change. Or it could happen where two unbelievers were married and one of them got saved. Okay. So you can have two situations here. The situation you have to ask yourself is, did you disobey the wisdom of God? So what you need to be honest with yourself about is ask, did I disobey God? Yeah. I mean, was God warning me through parents, through friends, through the word, of course, always through the word, that I was gonna be unequally yoked together? And if so, you need to repent of it. Now, that doesn't mean you get divorced. No. Okay? That means you now start praying for the mercy of God and you start praying for that spouse to be saved.

Because the Bible specifically talks about is like, if your spouse is not saved, you win them over by the good works and the good deeds that you do. Yeah, I remember you told this one story of what was it, the husband that had locked his wife out?

Smith Wigglesworth.

Yeah, that's what it is.

Smith Wigglesworth was a plumber. His wife, Polly. Was a very devout believer. Yeah. And she would always like— she served him like crazy. She made him dinner one night and said, I'm heading to church. The dinner's in the oven. He was so mad at her for going to church, he locked the house, bolted it, went to bed. She came home, couldn't get into the house. So she ended up collapsing at the front door, falling asleep. The next morning, he got up to get the newspaper, which was always at the front door, When he opened the front door, she fell into the house because she had slept leaning against the front door. She jumped up and said, "Smith, darling, what do you want for breakfast?" That led him. See, this is Peter in 1 Peter talking about let it be the behavior, the humility, the behavior of the wife that wins over the husband. That ended up winning Smith Wigglesworth. He became one of the greatest men of God in the 20th century. I mean, powerful. Man of God. And I believe Polly has eternal rewards like crazy. Every person he's reached, I believe she got credit for it. She'll get credit for it at the judgment seat. But this is the thing, you know, how do you expect to go against the wisdom of God like Lot and expect to have a blessed life? And so I want everybody to be really honest with themselves right now. Are you trying to team up with unbelievers? Are you trying to enjoy the world and be on the fringes and still be a Christian too. Your long-term result is not gonna be good. The world has an alluring and a drawing power that is bigger than you, than you flirting. Now, this is the kind of the mentality you should take in regard to the world. Jesus said, "Go into the world, but not be of the world." Okay, so what does that mean? Be bedside to the world, but don't jump in bed with the world.

'Cause that's a lot of people's argument is they said, where would Jesus not go?

He didn't jump in the bed with the world. He was bedside. He was ministering to the world. That was his mission. Not his mission was to, oh, I wanna go have fun. They have more fun than most Christians. I'm gonna go and then do with—

He would call them out of their unrighteous living. He would not allow them. They would be uncomfortable around them if they remained in that sin. But yet he loved them through it. And I think that's the important thing because I've always seen this as this example of someone, is in quicksand and you're looking at them and you're like, okay, I need to save this person. Your best solution is not to jump into the quicksand with them to try to push them out. You are ultimately going to continue to keep pushing yourself further down and them are going to—

You're both going to drown.

The best way to do it is to continue to stand on that high ground, firm ground, and get them something that is going to bring them out of that situation. Right now, you cannot bring them out of that situation standing 100 feet. Or 100 yards in the other direction and hoping that you're going to be able to reach them. You do have to come bedside to them and be able to be in their world, but not transformed of their world, which Lot was not able to do. But I think if Abraham, and I know this is just my thinking, if Abraham was going to camp up alongside Sodom and Gomorrah, I think he would not have been swayed by them because of his closeness to God, because of his heart for God. But Lot did not have that. Lot did not have the friendship with God that Abraham did.

Abraham wouldn't have gotten sucked in because he would have been walking with God. I mean, he even said to the king of Sodom, don't even give me anything. Yeah, I don't want you or anybody else saying that you've made me wealthy. He was basically saying, I'm not getting in bed with you. Yeah, I won't have it. And if you look at what James says in James chapter 4, he says two believers, he says, my brethren, 15 times in that book, my brothers and sisters, 15 times he said, if you make yourself a friend of the world, you become— you make yourself an enemy with God. I don't want to be an enemy of God. No. And he's talking to believers. And he said, if you commit adultery with the world, you're flirting with the world, you're jumping in bed with the world, you're an enemy of God. And so this, this situation about Lot is showing that, yeah, somebody can barely get in Having everything burned up, barely saved. Yes. I don't think it's worth pursuing because I look at the, I look at the, the short-term outcome. I look at the long-term outcome. For Lot, it wasn't good. I look at the short-term outcome for Noah and the long-term outcome, and it was good for Noah. So, so godliness is profitable for the life that now is short-term and is to come long-term. Yeah. And I believe that's what we take away from this. Yes. Okay, so getting back to 2 Peter. So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment. He is especially hard on those who follow their own twisted sexual desire. Does that describe America today? Yeah. Twisted sexual desires. So much so that we have twisted genders. Our twisted sexual desires of the '70s and '80s and '90s has led us now in the 2000s into twisted gender, because that is only twisted because of twisted sexual desire. Yeah. I mean, this is— it's gone flat out nuts. And it's basically what God said will happen when man keeps pushing God away, pushing God away, pushing God away, pushing God away. Okay, this is what you will turn into, man, without me. And we are modeling that right now in the United States of America. We have people who profess to be wise that are absolutely foolish. What they're saying is foolish. They actually really believe they're right. They actually believe they're walking in wisdom when in reality they're walking in foolishness.

It's what we talked about too, is like you don't just get off slowly by slowly or massive chunks by massive chunks. It's slowly by slowly. I think when you're looking at Lot and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, the fact that they are so comfortable with themselves to come to Lot's door and say, bring out those two men, we want to have sex with them, and that is just the accepted norm of society— that did not just happen one day. That's not just carnal desire, like, oh no, that was continual leading down the wrong path. And And that's what we've seen with these movements and all these things of what's going on right now, where we've gotten so fleshly driven. I don't, I don't know if you want to keep going, but the next thing on my Bible says, and despise authority.

These are the two big things. Wait, wait, wait. Let's read this again from the top. He is especially hard on those who follow their own twisted sexual desire. Okay. Everybody's going to go, yeah, yeah, yeah. If they're, if they're, if they're fundamental Christians, let's just call them that. Okay. But let's talk about the next one. He's especially hard on those who despise authority.

I mean, we've gotten to the point as a generation where we don't want to be told what to do. And it was so much too, is I've watched as a lot of the same-sex attraction came out of a place where it was like, well, my parents were too hard on me for this. So then I went to this way and things happened and they despise the authority. And then also, You saw parents, I mean, even right now, as you're seeing parents are letting, allow your children to choose and all this stuff because they don't want to be hard on their kids or correct their kids or instruct their kids in the way that they want. They're like, no, you as a 6-year-old have more wisdom to be able to make this decision. Like, what? How have we gotten to that point?

Well, it started, I believe, in the '60s First of all, we pushed away the word of God, right? We pushed away prayer. So then we have the hippie movement, right? And the hippies were all about, hey man, whatever feels good is good and authority is worthless, right? And so think about it then, those— they became parents. That was my generation became parents to you. But we got more sophisticated about it. Yeah. You know, there's blatant rebellion like the hippies, but then there's nice rebellion. Both are rebellion and both end up in the same place because here's the deal. The Bible doesn't suggest, the Bible says in Romans 13, it says, "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been appointed by God." Appointed, not elected, not selected, appointed. Okay? Now, "Therefore, whoever resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist incur judgment." So now, what is the Bible saying? The Bible is saying, I'm going to read it. I don't want to say what it's saying. I'm going to read it. Whoever resists the authority resists what God has appointed. It resists the ordinance of God, what God has appointed. So there is God's inherent authority and there is God's delegated authority. Mm-hmm. If we resist his delegated authority, we resist him. If we resist his inherent authority, we resist him. I mean, this is so clear. Because if you look at Jude, Jude talks about Cain, he talks about Balaam, and he talks about Korah. He talks about the rebellion of Korah. Okay, so let's talk just a minute about the rebellion of Korah. Korah basically says— this is Numbers 16:2-3— Korah incited a rebellion against Moses. So now God appointed Moses as authority, and Korah incites a rebellion. Now listen to what he says. Well, along with 250 other leaders of the community, all prominent members of the assembly, they united against Moses and Aaron and said, you have gone too far. Yeah, the whole community of Israel has been set apart by the Lord. They're holy, and he is with all of us. What right do you have to act as though you are greater than the rest of the Lord's people? Now, what was the outcome? Of Korah and the 250 leaders.

The earth swallowed them. What? The earth swallowed them.

You can say it strong.

The earth swallowed them.

The earth, oh, you can open up there. And it swallowed them alive straight into hell. Yeah. Okay, because why? They resisted the delegated authority. Not the, see, 'cause here's where people will go. They go, well, I'm submitted to God's direct authority, but these leaders I'm not gonna listen to. What did Jesus say? 'the Pharisees and scribes sit in Moses' seat.' What is the seat? Seat always speaks of authority. They sit in Moses' seat of authority. 'Therefore, whatever they say to you, do it.' That's what Jesus said. This is Matthew 23. 'Whatever they say to you, do it, but don't live like them because they're—' And then he goes on and pronounces all these judgments upon them, right? I mean, so he's saying, man, don't you live like them because they are coming under— they are under God's judgment. They are under it right now. Okay, if I look at America, America's under judgment. Not the day of judgment, but we've brought ourselves under the, what do you call it when the judgment is built into the way God created? This is why we're going. Paul's saying, when you push God away, when you know who God is, but you don't worship God, you don't obey God the way he is, you know what? This is what's gonna happen. And this is the righteous judgment, okay? And so Korah brought eternal, there's eternal judgment that comes on him and these 250. And Jude says, these people have gone the way of Korah. They've gone the way of Cain. Cain out of envy and jealousy destroyed his brother. He said they have gone the way of Balaam. What was Balaam? He was genuinely gifted by God. He heard the voice of God, but he was more interested in riches like Gehazi was, more interested in money than he was in obeying God. He was greedy. And then you look at Korah. Korah was rebellious. Okay, so he especially is hard on those who have their own twisted sexual things or sexual immorality and those who despise authority. Despising authority is a real matter. It's a real issue with God because why? All authority is of God. So when you meet authority, you meet up What? When you encounter authority, you encountered the ordinance of God because God and his authority are inseparable. Show me a person who despises authority. I'll show you a person who really despises God because God and his authority are inseparable. Mm-hmm. Inseparable. Yeah. Now, Peter says, honor the king. Fear God. How are you going to fear God and honor the king? How are you going to honor the king that he says to honor? Because the king he says to honor In 1 Peter 2:17, that king was Herod Agrippa, one who was murdering Christians in order to gain political favors with Rome. Yeah. How can you honor that king? You can't honor his behavior. You honor his position. You realize that position is a position of authority. And the Bible says that we are to obey. We are to submit to and obey these authorities. Yeah.

Now, then I'm making clear that we don't obey. Make it clear.

Go ahead. No, we make it clear that we do not obey if they tell us to sin, whether we obey God or you, you judge. So when they were told by the authority, do not preach in the name of Jesus, Peter goes, hey, whether I obey God or you, you judge. So that's the only time the Bible tells us not to obey an authority is if authority tells us to do something contrary to what's written in the Bible. However, we are to unconditionally submit. Submit deals with our attitude. If you look at Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, here's King Nebuchadnezzar, who God called my servant, yet he's so crazy, he's so anti-God that he actually walks around like a wild ox for a year. Okay, King Nebuchadnezzar sets up a statue. Shadrach and Meshach do not bow. He said, when the music plays, you gotta bow. They don't bow. Yeah, they are brought before the king. He's furious. They don't look at him and say, you jerk, we're not going to do what you said. They said, "Your honor, your majesty, we will not do this. We refuse to do it." So they kept their submitted heart. They kept their honor for his position, but they refused to obey him. Yeah.

Which I mean, unpopular opinion, I think Nebuchadnezzar has got such a terrible rap, but I actually think he's one of the more interesting kings in the Bible. I do too. Because I mean, you see his journey of his realization of God through his whole story. Like even right there when he pulls the men out of the fire, he was like, "Who's the other one in the fire?" And then he sends out what? His decrees. Like, no, God is the God. He's the true God. And if anyone speaks ill against him, their limbs will be ripped off. Yeah. So like, there's like an immature belief that's going on and you watch as it continues to keep going in this. And it was that whole realization that God was doing with Nebuchadnezzar, this humbling of understanding that God is the one who establishes what? The authorities. God's the one who establishes the kingdoms on earth. Nebuchadnezzar thought Look at how great my kingdom is. And God's like, all right, I'll show you how great you are. And boom, he goes insane. And then what does the Bible say? It says then he returned his gaze back up to heaven. So his eyes began back fixed on God, understanding God, you are the one, you are the one who establishes authority. You're the one who established this kingdom. And his sanity came back to him. And then he reigned in a great manner.

Oh, he's one of the— well, he was the gold. Remember the statue that Daniel saw? It was gold and then silver, and I think it was bronze, then it was iron and clay. Yeah. I mean, Nebuchadnezzar was the gold. He was probably the greatest world leader ever.

But Nebuchadnezzar's realization was that God established authority. That was the whole thing. That was his whole insanity. And I am wondering if the United States and the world today is going through a little state of insanity. For God to get us to understand that he's the one who established authority. Hope so. If we're just being real, like, I mean, we can talk honestly. I know that we have within our systems here in the United States, we have ways to appoint the authority that we're hoping for. But I think what you've seen so much is that when people do get the wrong authority that they're— they're— we're not hoping for getting to the office, there's an utter rebellion that happens. And so how do we navigate that in a democracy where we can appoint different authorities, but then those authorities are established and things go kind of awry and people begin to start casting down or saying, you know, all these negative things and dishonoring that authority. Do you feel like that's kind of the continuation of what we're leaning into in terms of why we've gone so astray? Because I know it's very much different.

Well, let's just deal with our nation right now. I mean, we've got a leader right now that Obviously, his policies are so anti-biblical. But that doesn't mean we call him a jerk. It doesn't mean we make fun of him. It doesn't mean this. It means that we honor his position, but we don't submit to his, we don't obey his policies that are anti-biblical. And that's the position you gotta take. And I think it's a real test to all Christians. When you've got a leader like what we have right now, are you gonna be dishonorable? Are you going to, joke about him, make jokes about him, harp on, quote, "Oh, he's insane, he can't even form a sentence," and all of that. I mean, look, here's the thing. Noah was drunk and his son came out and told everybody. His other sons came in and covered his nakedness. When we honor a person's position of authority, we are in essence saying, "God, I'm honoring your authority." So I look at our present administration in the national government in the United States, and I can agree with very little that they're doing. I would say what they're doing is absolutely detrimental to the benefit of our nation. However, he's still in authority, and I'm not going to shame him. I'm not going to publicly disgrace him. I'm not going to speak against him even in my home. I'm not going to do it. I'm just going to remain silent and say, God, I can complain about him or I can pray for him. And you told me to pray and to give thanks for those who are in authority. So that's what I'm going to do. I'm not going to gossip about him and slander him.

How do we balance out too? Because I agree with that. And I've watched your mom do that so well for so long. But when we have an established system that allows us to remove those people out of office—

I'm not going to vote for him, that's for sure. Yeah.

But I'm saying like even going into like impeachment and things like that, which I obviously understand impeachment is things that were— they're not upholding what they've vowed to do within their swearing in. But how do we navigate that balance where as us as believers, we want to call out the negative things and understand that there's a system that can remove that person? Is it about going through it in the right manner, but not dishonoring that individual or dishonoring the—

not, I want to say the place and the authority of that, because I think you need to ask yourself the question is what I'm saying right now in the context of where I'm saying it, is it going to do any good for our nation? Is it going to do any good for, for the establishment that we have to remove? No. Yeah, it's unfortunately, it's not us that remove him. It's the people we elected. And the people you elected make the decision. I mean, we can let our voice be known at Washington. Hey, yeah, we believe he's, he's hurting our nation. We believe you need to cast this vote. We can do everything as our government set up for us to do because we're still staying under the authority. Yeah. See, our forefathers set up a system of government that would protect us from tyrants, right? We're trying to whittle away at that, but we still have it in place that our forefathers set up as the authority of this nation being a republic. Okay. Yeah. Not, not socialistic, not a communistic. We are a republic, which means we do have a voice. But the thing is, if we're not praying and we're not voting, then we need to keep our mouths shut. Yeah, because what good is it going to do when you're storming around with your friends mocking the president, watching stuff on social media that makes him look like a fool? That's your leader. Yeah. And so we need to be like Shem and Japheth that walk in with the, the garment on their shoulder, cover up their father's nakedness, and not be like Ham who broadcasts the shame of his father. And so as far as me and my household, we're not going to shame our president. We're going to shame our leaders.. But we are going to pray for them. We are not going to obey them if they tell us to do something that's sin, that's contrary to the word of God. But what good does it do if I shame them in my household or in my circle of friends? It does no good at all.

Yeah, I think that's a really challenging point that you just said right there. I hope people really take in is if you're actively trying to get someone out of office, have you taken the time to actively pray for them? I mean, that, that is that is going far beyond—

well, that happened with me with President Clinton. I couldn't stand President Clinton. I was so depressed for 3 days when he got into office. And one day God spoke to me and said, nobody gets into office without me knowing about it. And then all of a sudden I realized, oh my gosh, God appointed Nebuchadnezzar. He appointed— he even said, for this reason I raised you up, Pharaoh. Yeah, I raised you up. Okay, I raised you up. And I thought, Nobody gets into office without God knowing about it. And then God said to me, he said, you're not praying for him. I didn't tell you to criticize him. I didn't tell you to slander him. I said pray and give thanks. 1 Timothy chapter 2, let pray and give thanks for all men, especially those who are in authority, for kings, for governors, for people that are sent by the kings. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And I, and I realized all the complaining I was doing about President Clinton was doing no good. And I start praying for him. And Arden, do you know what happened? By the time he left office, I had the deepest love for him. I didn't have a lot of respect. I didn't condone what he did, especially what he did with the Monica Lewinsky thing in the White House, in the Oval Office, the highest office, that basically defiled our White House. I just said, God, please let this man's soul— please let him be saved. Please let him come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. But he's my president. He's our president. And you know what? Don't walk around and say he's not my president. No, no, you had every right to vote. And if you didn't vote, then fine. And you know what? The way the republic was set up was the majority. And now the state's electoral, the way they set it up, he's your president.

Let me throw one more thing in there. I know you have a great point to make around it because I remember you saying this.. And I remember someone clapping back at you and said, well, what if you believe that that presidency was stolen? Oh yeah. And I thought you brought such a great wisdom to it because that is another huge thing. They're like, well, not my president. We did vote, but then we feel like it was stolen. It was all this.

Go ahead. What did I say? You said— I want you to say it. I want to hear how you heard me say it.

Well, you talked about Herod Agrippa and you talked about how his his authority within Scripture was all because of—

it was strengthened because of the illegal stuff he was doing.

Yeah, for Caesar.

But yet Peter still wrote, honor the king, and the king he was referring to is Herod Agrippa I. And yet he's a very corrupt man. Yeah.

And so here's the thing, killing Jews just— or he's killing Christians just to gain favor of—

here's the thing, it's a test for us. Yeah. What kind of character do you have? Do you recognize authority as being from God or is authority man-appointed? And that's the way the Pharisees were. That's why when Jesus said, "Well, I'll tell you by what authority I'm doing this. Was the baptism of John, was it from heaven or was it from men?" And they're sitting there debating it because you know what? They don't understand that nobody rises to a position of authority without God permitting it. And that's what God really sealed in my heart that day when he said nobody. Gets into office without me knowing about it. And so he is especially hard on those who follow their own twisted sexual desires and those who despise authority. Do not fall into the very contagious disease of feeling free to speak against and slander people that are in authority. We're talking about your parents, we're talking about your bosses, we're We're talking about your school teachers, we're talking about your coaches, we're talking about president, man's instituted authority. Because I'm gonna read right from the words of Peter, right from the word of God. Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man, every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme or to governors or to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. I'm gonna read it to you out of the New Living I want you to hear this because I don't want you to fall into this trap. For the Lord's sake, submit to all human authority. Bosses, coaches, teachers, president, senators, governor, mayor, city council, okay? Whether the king is head of the state or the officials he has appointed, for the king has sent them to punish those who do wrong and to honor those who do what is right. "It is God's will that your honorable lives should silence, your honorable lives should silence ignorant people who make foolish accusations against you." When you walk in this kind of obedience to the Word of God, you will silence people's ability to accuse you. And if they accuse you, God will not allow their words to penetrate or damage you because He will hide you He says to those who fear God in Psalm 31, I will hide you, to you who fear the Lord, the goodness that I have for you, I will hide you in the pavilion of my presence, free from the strife of tongues. Hey, choose God's ways because when you choose God's ways, you end up becoming like Noah, who your long-term fruit is going to be wonderful, something you will be so glad for all eternity. But if you don't choose— if you don't choose to walk in God's ways, you may have temporary fun, temporary excitement, temporary pleasure, but you will regret it on the long term. I hope you've gotten something out of today's podcast. It's very, very, very, very strong what we have talked about. No question, it's very anti-culture, countercultural, but it's the word of God. And we have drifted so far from the word of God, we need to hear things like this. We love you very, very much. And I wanna say this at the very end, it is not hate speech. For those of you who think this is hate speech, this is not hate speech. We love you and we want you to have a beneficial eternity and life now. And just examine what it's like for those who don't obey the word of God today and for those who do obey the word of God. You may see temporary pleasure, temporary benefits for those who don't obey the word of God, but watch their long run. And then watch people that have stayed faithful to God for decades and watch their outcome. And I think you'll realize it's wise to obey the word of God. We love you very much.