From Pain to Performance: Justin McClintock on Chronic Pain, Fitness, and Recovery

You're listening to the PT Prophet podcast From Pain to Performance with Justin McLintock. In this episode, Justin discusses how he helps individuals, particularly those with chronic pain, busy professionals, and postpartum moms, to regain strength and live without pain. Not only does he share personal experiences, including his own injury recovery journey with help of another coach, but he also talks about the importance of understanding client limitations through assessments and how he collaborates with medical professionals to ensure safe and effective training programs. Let's dive in.

What's up, Justin? Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. How are you?

I'm great. Thanks for having me.

I'm super excited to get in. Right before we hit record, we were just talking about all the amazing things we have in common. So I'm really excited about diving in today.

Me too.

Okay, so let's just go ahead and get right into it. Can you share with us a little bit about how you got into the business of helping people transform their life in health and witness health and fitness in movement when they had really huge setbacks?

Yeah, 100%. I. I came to it very honestly, which was as a practitioner and a member. I used to do. I had a whole different career. I used to work in showbiz. I did lighting for theater and live events and things like that. And I started getting hurt at a pretty young age, like, I was 22 and having significant shoulder problems. There's a lot of manual labor involved in that gig. I remember sitting down and Googling exercises to help you stay strong at work. And I remember doing it because it launched me on a completely different path that. That led me to where I am today, which is doing really specific solutions for people based on their life, their experience, their health, their injury history, their schedule, all of that, finding exactly the right combination of things that will take a person from where they are to where they want to be.

So I got my master's at Cap 21 as a musical theater professional. So I'm curious, what should turn this.

Into a theater podcast? Undoubtedly.

What shows were you working on?

A lot of stuff you haven't heard of. So. Because it was on, I mean, I did a million things off Broadway and a lot of, like, big live events. Like, I would travel around the country and do giant things for HP and Microsoft and that kind of stuff. Because, spoiler, there's more money there than theater. Broadway. I did a lot of added Adams family. I did Sister act. I did. I'm trying to think of things that ran for a little while because a lot of Them didn't run. Notably, I did. I did the A Little Night Music, where Angela Lansbury and Catherine Zeta Jones tag teamed as a headliner, which was a wild backstage to be at and tons of fun. If you ever get the chance to hang out with Angela Lansbury. No one does anymore, RIP. But she was amazing. And I worked on 13, which was Ariana Grande's first, like, first thing she ever did in showbiz. And she was just one of the kids on stage.

That is hysterical. What a fun fact. No, I think I can't remember it was A Little Night Music or what it was, but I saw Angela live. That I can tell you for a shadow of a doubt that the tech on that show must have been unreal because all of her lines had to be on a teleporter because she could not remember her line.

They were in her ear. She had a little ear and she. This was. I think she would be okay with me saying this. She was a very old woman at that point and a grand dom of the stage, an incredible presence, but from the very beginning was pretty open. Like, I'm going to need someone queuing me. Great. So someone sat up in a box and had a little microphone and she had her thing on and she. She tore it down every night and got a standing ovation. Well deserved. Every night.

Yeah, she was incredible. She was incredible to see. Okay, so now you were hurt and you had to figure out, how do I start living and working and live without pain.

Yeah, it was a real problem. This was, as far as I know, like, the. The term functional fitness had kind of just entered the lexicon. There's been versions of this forever, of course, but, like, putting things together in a way. And the change for me was not chasing aesthetic goals, not chasing performance goals, meaning I. I'm indifferent to whether or not I have a six pack. I'm not trying to take a time off my mile or add £50 to my back squat. I want to be able to do the rest of my life at 100%. That's the only thing I care about the gym for. And that mindset shift was really important for me and helping people do that. And very frequently I run into people who are hurt or too busy or don't understand how things can fit in their life. They feel like they probably need some fitness, but they don't know what to do. And they go for a walk and the walk feels okay, but it's not enough and they're worried they're going to get hurt. Those are the people who need strength training the most, those are the people who need some, frankly, armor and protection and ability to go through the rest of their life. The gym can build the rest of your life up. The gym doesn't have to be your life.

That is so good. That is so good. I love that. Okay, so you said as well, you said that, you know, you are, because of your experience, you focus a lot on setbacks. What are some of the setbacks that people experience? Experience that you work with and how you help them build this strength armor?

There's a couple of big ones and I think I can probably give an example for each. So I work with people who are in, who've been in chronic pain and, or kind of just coming out of physical therapy just after an acute injury. Right. If you just, if you were in a car accident, I'm not your guy. You should probably go see a physical therapist. That's the right place to be. But it's very frequent that people come out of a physical therapist and they can walk up the stairs, feed themselves, bathe themselves, but they can't chase after their kids on the beach. And that's what they want to do. And I'm the next step from, from A to B. It's those, those people tend to be, you know, they're living, but they're not quite living the life they want to live. Another category is I work with a lot of busy moms, particularly because especially like new moms, postpartum moms. Finding places to fit fitness into your schedule is incredibly difficult. And finding things that you are confident you can do safely can be really challenging. Depending, all, all births are different, depending on how your pregnancy went. Some people are great, some people are six weeks later, like going for a run and everything feels good. It's much more common for it to be nine months later and people still feel like they're in someone else's body and it's not working the right way. And a combination of. And a lot of times it's combining breath, work and lifestyle stuff and stretching and strength training and cardiorespiratory endurance. And in these might be like 15 minute sessions, four or five times a week that you can fit in in, you know, when the kid's asleep and you haven't quite gone to sleep yet. And that's the thing that moves the needle forward. And similarly, I work with a lot of busy professionals, like big, big deal corporate people, people who have a lot of demands on their time and they tend to be really time crunched. They often need like, they, they understand effort, they understand efficacy, but they, they have exactly 32 minutes a day to give me. What can we do in 32 minutes? And that's a fun challenge and a slightly different way of dialing in exactly what the right thing is, but also making sure we tap the intensity that's going to keep them coming back and keep them, you know, hit that reward center a little bit as well as be really effective for them.

Okay. So I imagine the amount of fear that people have when they are in pain or dealing with chronic injury or ha, you know, feeling like they've done all the things that must be really scary for them to take certain risks. So how do you start to build their, their competence essentially, so that they can have more confidence? What are some of the things that you do?

That's an excellent question. The first thing we do is we do a lot of assessment. If you come to me, you say, I had this injury and I labrum tear on my shoulder and I had surgery and the PT says I'm good to go and I just want to be strong again and, you know, be happy taking my shirt off and be able to lift my kid over my head. I am not going to send you a workout. I'm going to send you a bunch of assessments. Like, I need to see you move in these different ways. We're going to move this much weight in these very particular ways. So I can, I can build a really good idea of who you are. Everyone's different. Every individual. There is no one workout that is the perfect thing for everyone in the world. So finding exactly where your strengths are, where your deficits are, where your limitations are. You know, if, if you, this shoulder person I described, if they can't put their shoulder all the way over their head, I tell them to do pull ups for their first shoulder day. They're hanging from a bar in a position that their arm actually doesn't want to be in and isn't very safe in, we're already off on the wrong foot. Even if they were doing pull ups, you know, 20 pull ups at a time three months ago now pull ups are the wrong answer for them. For now, we can probably build toward them. So it's a lot of assessment and a lot of data collection at the beginning to make sure we're going in the right direction. And then we build up really deliberately. Everyone's, everyone I work with, their workout changes day to day, week to week. It, it progresses, but it's all, it's a lot of like switching things out and moving things around, making sure that we're always kind of tapping the right button hard enough to move them in the direction we want to go.

That's really good. Now, what is the type of feedback loop that you're typically in? Because what I would be curious to know for, especially for your high achie professionals, right, Is that sometimes they, they have a filter for how they are, are reporting feedback to you, meaning they think, oh, well, it's a little uncomfortable, but it'll get better as we move. So that might be something that they don't particularly share with you, especially if they were even remotely athletic before me coming to you. So how do you dial in that tight feedback?

I would say it's a combination of education and setting expectations really early on. So when you sign up, there's a bunch of education that comes along with it especially. I have a bunch of kind of like five to seven minute videos. And this is how we think about pain when we're working out. This is how we, we think about our overall capacity. Right. This is especially with really busy people. Everyone has a fixed capacity. It's fixed for today. It is something. All stress is stress. And if we go past that capacity line, it's only bad stuff. It is injury, fatigue, burnout, depression, all, all bad stuff is on the other side. So we always want to keep you under it. This is how we think about capacity. So we do a lot. I do a lot of auto regulation stuff with folks like that and then I have the conversation. I love hearing the good stuff. I love when people send me the text. Like, I just went up the stairs without pain for the first time. I ran my fastest mile. I didn't think I'd ever do a handstand at 45 years old. Like, yeah, send it to me. I put it in my rainy day file. I love it. The bad stuff is actually more helpful when you tell me, this was awkward. This was a 2 out of 10 on my shoulder today. This, this feels uncomfortable. I, I'm not sure I'm doing this right. That's the stuff that is actually more useful information for a coach. So I can keep dialing in and making sure we're going in the right direction. If you say, yeah, I did this, it was like a 2 out of 10 pain ways on my left shoulder. And then as soon as I stopped, the pain went away. That's still a green light for me. Yeah, it, we're, we're going to irritate that area a little bit to get it stronger. I'm not saying I want you to be hurt, but 2 out of 10 on a pain scale, that that's actually to be expected. So we're going to keep going. If it's a 2, and now it's a 4, and now it's a 6, and now it's an 8. Hard stop. Put it down. We're going to move on from that movement for today. We might come back to it, and we're going to see how we recover from that. So it's a lot of education with kind of some quote unquote rule setting at the beginning and making it really clear that I want to hear the bad stuff more than I want to hear the good stuff.

So that's really powerful. And what I think I'm curious about the most is I feel like, you know, even when we all tell stories, I'm saying we as the collective we. Okay. Is that you often hear a lot of the, like, I was really terrible and this was awful in the beginning. Like, I didn't even know what a squat was. And then you hear like, and now I can move people through a super intense. I can see their pain before they even see it. Right. And I feel like there is so much that happens in that magical, messy middle that we often don't know how to navigate. So, for example, what can you share with us a time where you were like, I'm going to push past this capacity because I think it's okay. And then it wasn't. What did you learn from those experiences and how did you get through that? Missing it all.

Yeah, I had. I had personally had a really nasty experience with this where I was coaching an adult gymnastics class and showing up a reasonably technical thing on the rings. I was going up and doing some cool moves and trying to make it look as pretty as possible because I'm demonstrating this movement and I hurt myself. It was an acute immediate. I dropped off the rings. The class noticed and was like, did something happen? No, no, no, I'm good. That was the beginning of an 18 month journey of me not paying attention and not addressing it and not doing the things to make it better and cutting stuff out and going less hard and not going overhead and not doing gymnastics. And now I'm now doing pushups. And it got to the point where I was putting a winter coat on one morning and it hurt so much I screamed and woke my wife up. That was the moment I was finding, like, oh, I should probably do something about this because 18 months ago I was like a Reasonably compliment competent gymnastics coach doing heavy overhead work and crossfit competitions and strongman stuff and all this other. And now I can't put my coat on. Maybe I let this go too long. And I had to go to a fellow coach who, who we kind of know the same stuff. He's very smart. I trust him implicitly. And I was like, I'm not. I'm not capable of doing this for myself. I need an objective. I. Please charge me full price. I want to be a client and treat me like you would a client. And five months later, I was great. It was not a fun five months. It was a combination of hard, uncomfortable, and really not sexy. But it worked great and I could have saved myself 15 months.

Okay, well. Oh, my gosh, that is. Thank you for sharing and how awful. Well, first of all, two things, right? It's such a powerful story on how all coaches need coaches. A dentist has to go to the dentist to take care of their teeth. So I think that that is so powerful in itself. Second of all, what was your mental state going through that process, being a coach yourself? Like, how were you, you know, how were you keeping your mind right as you're coaching clients and going through this process?

It was when I was injured and not addressing it, it was actually harder than having a coach because when I was injured, I realized I started. I was doing so many compensations. Like, in my life, I had started, like, opening doors a different way and putting my bag on a different way and things I didn't even notice all the time. And then in class, suddenly I'm not demonstrating all the gymnastics moves. I'm asking another student to do it. I'm going to show you on. On Lewis here how he moves around and, and, and I'm pulling back and pulling back. I'm like, this is. This isn't how I want to do it. I'm fine with. If that's how you coaches, if you're hearing this, if that's you coach your class, that's fine. It isn't what I wanted to be doing, so I was avoiding things I wanted to be doing. And that's where I think a lot of the magic is. I got. When I got as low as I got and had to go to another coach, I was so excited to be a client. And honestly, I think for. For any coach out there, and honestly, for any business owner out there, if you can be a client, member, whatever of a very similar business of yours, it is an incredible learning experience. See what it feels like. See what you like, you're going to steal some stuff, you're going to find stuff you like, you're going to find some stuff you hate. You're like, oh, it is so frustrating when I send a message and it just doesn't get responded to. I would rather have a thumbs up emoji than nothing. I am never, ever, ever going to let a message go unresponded to again. So I found it like, useful on the business side and frankly just restorative and pleasant on the client side because I had gotten to such a nasty place. I was just excited and to be, you know, and very willing to be vulnerable to that process.

So did you have to go do, did you have to do a pt? Was there a tear like, or was it just. Yeah. What happened?

There wasn't a tear. I did do some physical therapy and the manual work there was very helpful in breaking up some stuff that had happened in my shoulder. But I, I think I only went five or six times and then the PT I went to was great. He, I was very clear on my goals from the beginning. And we got to the point where he was like, you should go hire this guy you've been telling me about. There's nothing else I can do for you here. Which I really appreciated that he didn't, you know, try and keep me on an artificial prescription or something.

And it took five months. What was five months? What was the progress like? Like, how did, did you ever, you know, was it a linear experience? Did you feel like it's getting, it had to get worse before it got better. Like what happened and, and, and what an amazing experience to go through what your clients go through.

It was, it was incredibly valuable as a coach. There's easier ways to learn. If I hadn't been such a stubborn ego, egotistical dummy, I could have done it in an easier way. But it certainly made a mark. The progress wise. It was, it was very humbling at the beginning because a lot of the tests and, and assessments were things I had done with people a million times. It's like, well, I know how to do this. I'm doing high pulls. So I picked up the 70 pound dumbbell and like dropped it. Oh, oh, I'm going to start with the 10, aren't I? Oh, I'm going to start with a 10 pound dumbbell and it's going to hurt and that's what happens. Oh, okay. I'm going to, you know, do this with a barbell and I put a bunch of weight on it and I could not do what I was asked to do. And I had to do it with an empty barbell. Okay. But that level set, which was hard on the ego, but I was ready for it then let a ton of progress happen. And it was the right, was the right stimulus. Right. I was regulate like 80 or 90% of effort even with an empty barbell. And then a couple months later, you know, my coach sent me the first video I ever sent him. And a video I sent him that day. Hey, remember when you did this with an empty barbell and now you have £155 on it. I know it's not what you used to do, but this is pretty cool. Yeah, that is pretty cool. And having being able to like test and retest along the way is something I do with my clients all the time. And a great way to show that progress, especially with a long term project like that, when it's like I can't lift my arm over my head. Okay, we're probably not fixing this in the next four weeks, but it's going to be important to your psyche for us to find things that we can show definitive improvement. Maybe we're not there yet. You did this, you know, you moved ten pounds five times on week one. And you move ten pounds 15 times on week six. We're moving in the right direction.

What's your, what's your. How do you measure or what, what measurement of time, like how long are you measuring whether or not something needs to be, you know, progressed or something needs to be a very varied.

It's really personal. And one of the things it depends on is people's focus, by which I mean, this might be the perfect exercise for you. We're doing something simple, pressing a dumbbell overhead with one arm. That might be exactly the right thing. And we progress it, and we progress it, and we progress it. But I have often found somewhere around week six, seven or eight, most people get a little bored. And even if they know it's the right thing, even if they know it's perfect, they bring a little less focus and they bring a little less intensity and they bring a little less intention and that starts showing up in the work. So I will often, maybe I still want a, some, a single arm push of some kind, but I will often vary it up in some way just to bring that new focus and intention because that's a really important part of being able to move forward. And honestly, if, if the whole thing starts to be boring and at least pieces of it aren't something people kind of look forward to it is even easier for it to be the first thing cut in their day.

So how do you maintain. I also feel like I, It's a, that's a great point. But I also feel like in our world today, where we are literally just dopamine addicts, how do you maintain their focus and keep them engaged without, you know, wanting to change it and vary it and. And at the cost of progressive overload?

It's. So I. Part of the answer to that is the people I work with, like, the people who. And it's. And they often have big goals. And that's a really important part of it. Right? If your goal is, I just want to. I want to get hot, I want to get sweaty, I want to have a good time. I want to like, you know, get some free endorphins. You can do almost anything, like, find your favorite. A fitness class that works with you and you like the vibe. That's probably the right place for you to be. And that's not like, that's not hate toward fitness classes. I've coached tens of thousands of fitness classes. They're great for the right people. People who have those goals of, no, no, I want to be able to keep up with my kids in 10 years, and I'm worried I won't be able to. I'm, you know, I had a client who came to me, he was like, we just got a bad test and I think I'm going to have to start chemo in six months. I need a lot more muscle in my body than I currently have to recover from chemo. These people are motivated, right? These are big, sexy goals. And sometimes people have big goals and they don't tell you, meaning they'll come and say, I just want to get fit and feel good about my body. You say, okay. And I know, like, we've just started at least a half hour conversation. Well, what does that mean to you? Well, what would that look like if we. How would we even know we were successful four months from now if I'm like, well, we definitely nailed it. I'd be able to say that because what happened? And then they start telling me, oh, well, I. I'll be able to carry my kid all day and, you know, not have to give him to his grandma and feel really good about it and, you know, not wake up four times at night in pain. Oh, now I'm really interested. Now. These are some big goals. And having. Having those big goals is frankly, easier to keep people motivated for a little longer. And they tend to need a little less entertainment.

It's interesting because I remember when I had a cesarean. So my. I had. My two little girls were 20. They're 20 weeks or 20 months apart. Not weeks. Oh, my gosh. Okay, 20 months apart. So they were very close. They are very close in age. Not quite two years. So when I had my second cesarean, I could not pick up my. My baby. I had a toddler that was not really a toddler. Not. She was still in diapers and she couldn't talk. Like, she was still, for all intensive purposes, a baby. And I could not pick her up. And it was soul crushing where you just. I can't. I. I literally can't pick you up. It was. That was hard. That was nine years ago. And I still remember what that felt like.

I have a client right now, and we are. The thing we are training for is her next pregnancy because her first one was so hard. And that is the only thing we're training for. She is almost indifferent to anything else, which makes for. We get to do all kinds of cool stuff. But it's also on those hard days, on those long days, you know, it's never a guilt trip, but she said, this is really hard. I can't do this today. Like, yeah, you're gonna have to pick the kid up. It's not gonna be a chance. It's not gonna be a choice. You're gonna be home alone. Okay.

Okay.

Away. We. And I would never do that in a manipulative way. Just to say, you said this is what was important to you. I'm making sure this is still really important to you.

But that's so true. You. You can't. You're gonna have to pick the kid up. So true.

Not being able to is really, really hard. And. And navigating that is suddenly it's. I don't want to compare it to. To. To my thing, but, like, oh, I can't use this arm anymore. Oh, it's gotten to that point. Oh, my life's really different. I should probably do something about this. This is really important. Like, that kind of contrast can bring things to the front where suddenly it's like, maybe I'm gonna do some. Some, you know, pelvic physical therapy or some scar massage or some, like, find all these other things that maybe I wouldn't have done if everything was feeling okay, but now it's really important because these other things are such a priority to me.

Yeah. It's so true. And it's not either or. Both pains are just as, you know, as just painful. I mean, I also remember when I go back to that time, you know, I remember laying, you know, trying to negotiate with God, you know, whatever universe, whatever the air. Like, please, if you just let me sit up in bed this next time, I promise I will swing a kettlebell again. Just let me do it. Just let me sit up. Just do it, please.

But I. So you. I also work with a lot of pregnant people. It's really common and people will come to me when they first get pregnant to train for the pregnancy. I feel like that's more accepted nowadays. But it used to be, it used to be kind of a thing and I would get people looking at me and saying weird things. Even 10 years ago, doing weight training with visibly pregnant people and it's very good for them. Even like, like the American College of Obstetrics and gynecologists have come out very clearly and said, yes, resist. Especially if you've ever done it before. You should absolutely be strength training during your pregnancy as long as you can. Basically, as long as it doesn't hurt or feel incredibly uncomfortable, you should keep doing it because you are about to go through something. We are training for an event. There's a deadline and it's not a flipping turkey trot. This is a big deal. It's coming. We should be as ready as we can for it.

It's not a turkey trot.

Well, I'm not against turkey trots, but if you're going to like, if we're going to like plan for a big thing and try and get our body as ready as possible, I feel like, you know, one's a bigger deal, dude.

I mean this is, it's a marathon like none other, let me tell you. But you know, it's interesting, it's funny because I remember when I would, when I was working with a lot of moms, obviously they would say I've never string trained before and now I'm pregnant, does this mean I can't string train? And back in the day or 20, 10 years ago, all of that, all of the textbooks out there were like, no and don't get the heart above 140. Don't string train. You can only do what you were previously doing, which is not true. You can, of course, hello, they're about to, their body is about to completely transform. Whether you strength trained or not, you can start introducing movement to them.

And there's a lot of those. Overwhelmingly those recommendations came from a place of do no harm slash cya. Like if, if I Tell this person they can't lift more than five pounds. It's pretty unlikely they're going to hurt themselves. And that's true. But they're also not going to get stronger. And, and by the way, they're about to produce a creature which is likely over five pounds and wiggles around and does all kinds of other stuff. This five pound thing is nonsense. And on the. It doesn't happen much anymore. But I have had people come to me and say, my doctor told me to not pick up any more than £5 or take it easy. Which is the worst. It's meaningless advice. Or, you know, don't, don't do weight training. I'd be like, cool. First of all, what my first question always is, would it be okay if I talk to your doctor and I reach out to lots of medical professionals? Not in a mean way, extraordinarily professionally. Like, I am not a doctor, I am not a medical professional. You know more than me. I'm a movement specialist. I know more than you about one thing. You just told her not to lift more than five pounds. I want to be really clear because we're doing some things that means she can't go grocery shopping. That means we need to get her a new purse. That mean. Well, Right. Like you start introducing some reality into it.

Yes.

And they say, well, I don't mean that. Okay, you said so she can't do weight training, but she has a, she has a 20 pound dog that takes her for a walk, jerks around and she moves it back and forth. My stuff is easier than that. So do we need to hire a dog walker? Like. No, no, no. I just, I don't want her doing anything crazy or anything that's going to get her hurt. Okay. So if she moves in a way that we, we agree is good for her but is unlikely to get her hurt, you're on board. Yes. Okay. That's what I figured, Doc. And that's a hard conversation to have, especially when you're. You have 10 minutes with each person you're being slammed through and insurance isn't fair and all the other things we know about it.

Yes.

But getting to the heart of it. Great. I talked to your doctor. They said I can do whatever I think is a good idea as long as we keep you safe, which is my guiding light anyway. So pick up the kettlebell, let's go to work.

Yes. And honestly, Mom's not really usually not hurt or afraid of her. She's afraid of the biggest. She's afraid of harming the baby, that's not.

Yeah, she's like, that's the only thing we would like. And I. Full disclosure, I have, I, I have a cheat code on this because I'm married to an obstetrician. Um, but the, the, the only thing I take away, especially in the first trimester, is things that could potentially be catastrophic. So we don't, we don't do box jumps only because, like, failing on a box jump can be so nasty. It's not worth it. There's other things we can do that will produce the same effect. We don't do box jumps. We're not gonna, like, climb a 20 foot rope. We, we could in the first trimester do burpees. We often don't just because it tends to freak mom out. And I have that conversation, but there's nothing, there's nothing physiological about why they shouldn't do it. But a lot of times it just feels weird to have like your stomach slamming into the ground. I feel like it's bad.

Right.

There's other things we can do that aren't burpees, but unless it would be a catastrophe, we can do almost anything.

I mean, I'm also laughing at doctor's advice like that because it's like, wait, have you picked up your car seat yet? Because I'm pretty sure that.

Yeah, yeah, it is. Like when you dig three inches underground of that advice, you're like, oh, this is meaningless. Like, this doesn't mean anything. And you've probably just been like, anyone who says that has been saying it for 20 years or is brand new and has it, and you're the first pregnant person they've ever met.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So true. Well, what. Great. What sound advice, though. If you are working with a, with a client and they said, my doctor said, just talk to the doctor.

Yeah. And, and I will give them, like, really specific questions and not, I want to be clear, like, I'm not trying to start confrontations with people's medical providers. As far as I'm concerned, we're all on the same team.

Yeah. Oh, for sure.

In an ideal world, you have a healthcare team and we're all pointed at you and it would be better if we all talk to each other, which we don't do a great job of right now, but I try and facilitate some of that.

Well, something you had said earlier, which I think is, you know, it's worth bringing attention to it because I think it's true. I, and I'll. And I'll speak for me, is that Is that oftentimes there's a level of ego that comes into play is asked as a movement professional or whatever. We start to feel like it means something if we're consulting with someone else, if we are trying to collaborate with another professional. When the truth of the matter is if you can really just focus conversations around. We're trying to build a movement and health plan that is best for this person together. That's all I mean about like talking to the doctor because sometimes it's literally just like a mismanaged game of telephone. Just have a conversation around what is it that we are intending and trying to do for the patient.

Yeah. And remember it's going through the patient slash client and they may not be the best, you know, link in the telephone. So sometimes we'll take them up like I'm just going to ask and I'll send the doctor a question like hey, so they told me this, this is my assessment, here's my plan. You're the professional, tell me, tell me what I shouldn't be doing or any glaring things you miss. And nine times out of ten they're like looks good, I'm glad people like you are doing this kind of work. Can I send you some people? And one time out of ten they'll say oh, she should also be doing some breath work or make sure that you know, stretching or mobility is, is part of the things great all over at Doc. Like when, when you talk to these people one on one. Overwhelmingly we are all on the same team and we all actually want like we all got in the business we're in because we want to help people. But it can get a little loud and the noise is really big and the ego especially when people. There are people who don't want to consult or don't want to refer or feel like they should be the one stop shop for all answers in the universe and no one is that person. I have found, I have found that I earn more credibility and more trust by saying, oh I don't know but I have a bunch of smart people. I'm going to go ask some smart people that question. I'll have an answer for you within 48 hours. Yes, that builds real credibility, not like making something up.

Right. I found I'll speak for myself. The more experienced and the more educated I became was when I started to realize I, you know, oh, I need more help and support. So I usually can tell if someone's trying to be a one stop shop. It's. I get it. I see myself in that it's coming from a good place. It's coming from, like, I really can be the person. It's not you. It's not coming from like, I want to be a guru. It's coming from like, no, need me, pick me. Right. But to your point, when you have the credibility of, like, no, there's a team of people behind me that I have access to to help you, that is more valuable to the client.

And it builds. It builds credibility everywhere else, too. Right. If a client comes to me, I say, you know what? I can do this. But I know a physical therapist who also coaches Olympic weightlifting. She would be perfect for you. Would it be okay if I make an introduction and then do a 3 introduction or say, hey, Doctor, this is the client. This is what they already told me. This is their leading concern. This is why I think they'd be a good fit for you. Take it away, doc. That both of those people are now better served. The client is with the right person. The doctor, coach is very happy that they have an ideal client. And probably three to six months from now, I'm going to get one of those where they're like, you know what? I could do this, but you'd be perfect for Justin. The. You know, I live in Philadelphia. There's 1.6 million people in Philadelphia. I can't possibly get to all of them. I don't really want to. That sounds like too much work. Lots of people need help, and I. I truly believe there's lots of good people working and we're all on the same team trying to make the world better.

Yeah. So true. Such a good point. So now, you know, earlier you had mentioned that you work with people with chronic conditions. What's one of the worst or hardest cases that you've ever had to work on?

That's a great one. Some of the hardest ones, the chronic pain stuff is really nasty, and it comes in a bunch of different ways. Sometimes it's nerve related. Sometimes people have spinal things, bulging discs, stuff like that, which may or may not be the cause of this pain. That's an important point to get to people, but they've been, you know, they. They've had a bulging disc, and so for 20 years, they haven't been able to run. Okay. Do you want to run? Yes. Okay. Are you willing to try? Yes. Great. I. I don't know yet, but let's do some assessments and figure out where you can go. Those are really hard. The other really hard people are people with bony abnormalities. So, like you, some kind of arthritis or, you know, they, they sprained their ankle six times when they were playing field sports as a teenager and their ankle actually grew differently and now it doesn't bend the way most ankles bend. And so when they, when they run, their lower back hurts a lot because they're shock loading it because their ankle can't do the thing you want to do. And in that case, we're like, well, we might have to figure out some other things. And it may or may not be running. Making your back stronger, making your knees stronger, making your ankles stronger may be the solution, and it might get you there. But finding bony stops like, because I can't, I can't change the shape of your bones. The only way to do that is paying someone an enormous amount of money to cut the bone into a different shape. And that may not have any effect on your pain or function, which is a really important point. I, I have, I often get people who are like, considering a surgery and it's like, I'm not the surgeon. Tell. Your surgeon will give you the answers. Have you asked them if this will definitely cure your pain? Because you can go in and have a discectomy, which is a big, giant deal surgery, and come out and have exactly the same pain. And that is a deeply frustrating experience for people. So both of those are hard, and they're mostly hard in the mindset, overcome, because both of those people will frequently, commonly, well, this is a permanent condition and there's nothing I can do about it and I'll never be able to run. So if we can change that mindset now, if we can change that belief, we open up possibilities.

I mean, surgery serious. And to that point, I was about to tell you, I had a client who had, who he was a physical therapist and he had a new patient who had just done surgery. And when he looked, he was like, he couldn't tell him. He was like, I'm not going to tell him. But like, he basically just, this surgeon has destroyed his professional career because of the botched work that was done on this foot. And I was like, what did you do? And he's like, not going to say it. I can't. What am I supposed to say? I mean, it's horrible. What a horrible experience.

And surgery is a medical miracle. It's amazing we can do that. But make sure that expectations are set and you have the, all of the information and most of the time it should be the absolute last option because you can't undo a surgery.

It's so true. Like, listen, if you're Listening to this and about to have surgery. Don't get scared, right? Same thing. That's why I don't tell moms about my pregnancy stories. But one of my dance teachers, he went in for a knee surgery and when he woke up, they had done the wrong knee. No. Yeah.

In this day. And oh, my God.

I mean, no. I mean, it was my dance teacher, right? So I've been in and out of theater for, you know, 200 years. But, yeah, stuff happens, right? It's just all about communication.

My wife doesn't like it when I tell her I don't want to go to the hospital. She's like, why do you want to go to the hospital? It's like, that's where people go to die. Like, it's not. It's a place of emergency. And that's what, that's what the hospital's for. Like, things are really bad. If we don't do something, I might not keep living. That's where hospitals shine, and it's amazing what they can do there. The my life is okay, but I want my life to be better. That's usually more in my, like, health, wellness, fitness side of the world. That's where we should probably spend more time because those are, those are the outcomes we produce. If you need life saving care, I am the wrong guy. You are in the wrong place. I'm gonna send you somewhere else as quickly as possible. But if you're like, yeah, I'm just tired all the time. My energy stinks, and I'm probably gonna, like, get some more, get two or three more prescriptions. Like, maybe some prescriptions are the right idea, but have we looked at, like, how you're sleeping and how much water you're having and how you're dealing with your stress and how much you're moving during the day and how your relationships are and. Oh, we haven't. Oh, well, there's probably some work to do there.

Have you ever worked with someone who had a concussion?

Yes. Concussions are tricky.

Yeah, tell me about it. I have a client that's got concussions. So tell me, I want to hear about what you do.

Concussions are hard, and every concussion is different. And the first thing you do is make sure they are working with someone who has neurological experience because it's really, really, really important and they need to. The last time I worked with someone with a concussion, they didn't get cleared to move for like four weeks, which is a little bit long. And. But their, their neurologist, or it might have been an Assistant. The person they were working with was great. We, we communicated with them. They were very clear on where she wanted to go. And then we built up really slowly and, and with a bunch of rules every day for what they're doing. It's like, you know, if you start getting dizzy, sit down, stop. Here's our breathing protocol. If you're not, not dizzy after two minutes, that's the end of the workout for today. And I know that's a giant bummer, but that's just how we're gonna roll for a little while. And then built up exercises that were really safe, right? Similarly, like, we didn't do any jumping for a while. We didn't do any fast movement for a while. We, we didn't do anything where their head had to like snap from one side to the other. And they were a CrossFit athlete, so they loved doing everything they wanted to do was fast. Like, we're going to do really slow work. We're going to put you in a gym, we're going to put you in some machines that you hate. You're not going to have any fun, but you can sit and work really hard and concentrate and focus on your breathing. And it was very successful. But it, it's really deliberate and, and I can't stress enough that you need, you need a coach, needs a team. Unless you have, you're really good on neurological considerations, you need a teammate on a medical professional in that.

Oh my gosh, my client has an entire team. She like a neurologist, a pt, an ot, all of it, name it. She's got a whole medical team. And it's just, but it's, it's hard to watch. It's so interesting because she's also a CrossFit athlete. So it is. I think the thing that is the, the hardest part about the experience for me is that watching someone who loves to be athletic, like, have all of that just gone, gone, gone.

Like, how did I go?

How did I go from CrossFit to, to not being able to be in a concert hall with lights and sound.

Yeah, yeah. And finding that stimulus, finding like focus points during movement. That's one of the reasons why like, machines and stuff were really useful because we could like sit and like find a dot, and that's the dot we're going to focus on this entire time. But you can also, for some of those CrossFitters, like Find New challenges. Like, have you even used a leg press before? You know how you do pistols, right? And you're good at those single leg squats. If we do a single leg leg press, you can work crazy heavy and you don't have to balance. And this is going to make your pistols amazing. You down. And now they're excited, like, yeah, let's do it. This is cool. And they can move a bunch of weight and they feel their. Their glutes working for the first time because they usually, like, balance on their toes and do all kinds of crazy stuff when they're doing pistols. And. And like, it's different. Like, like, I talked about the busy professionals. Like, where can we find the intensity in a way that works for this person in this situation?

Yes. So good, so good. Okay, so I want to be very mindful of your time, so. Oh, thank you so much for pouring into me and to us into the community. So for those of you who are tuning in and want to learn more from you and working with you, collaborating with you, what are some of the best places that I can send?

Instagram is the place. Go to eelstrongfit on Instagram. There's links to the website and all the other stuff there. I answer every dm. I dare you to DM me and not have me respond. It doesn't happen.

Okay. I love it. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

This was a delight. I'll do this anytime.