How to Manage Training Program for Your Clients In Pain

What's up, coach? Today we're talking with Dr. Shawna Storga of AMP Performance about how to manage training when your clients are in pain. Are you ready? Stay tuned. What's up, coach? I'm Beverly Simpson, the owner of B. Simpson Fitness and the founder of the PT Profit formula and PT Profit Podcast. Today I'm bringing to you a very special interview that I did with my friend Dr. Shawn, the co founder of AMP Performance. And we talked all about how this one moment in his life really transformed the trajectory of where he was going, how he's been able to transform his own life and also help others. So without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that interview. Hey, Sean, thanks so much for coming on the show. How are you today?

I'm doing well, Beverly. Thanks for having me.

Oh, my pleasure. This is going to be such a good episode. I'm really looking forward to it. So why don't we just go ahead, dive right in, tell us a little bit about who you are, who you serve, and how you got there.

Sure thing. So my name is Shawn Astorga. I am the owner of a company called AMP Performance Rehab in Northern New Jersey. We work with people who have struggled to find answers in the current medical system for pain and injuries. So we tend to get a lot of people who like to lift heavy weight in the gym. So we work with a lot of power lifters, a lot of strength athletes. We also work with people who like to run really fast. So we work with a lot of marathon runners, half marathon runners, who tend to have injuries, and they kind of get involved in the medical system for these injuries, but can't find answers. So they end up kind of recurring and going on and on and on for a while. And so we tend to help them find solutions that allow them to get past their injury and keep training.

That's awesome. How'd you get there?

Good question. So, essentially, I mean, first, I've been, like, an athlete my whole life. So I played basketball in high school and college, and I played football in high school. So I had my fair share of injuries myself, which ultimately got me to, obviously, becoming a physical therapist. But once you kind of go through physical therapy school and you start practicing and you see things don't really make sense, or they didn't at least make sense to me. It kind of changed my perspective on what I needed to do as a physical therapist. And then in terms of amp, you know, I had an injury a few years ago that really kind of changed my perspective on just General recovery and, like, the role that stress plays on a human being and how training essentially is stress. And I started to just frame things in that mindset of looking at how a person is kind of approaching their lifestyle. It doesn't really make sense when it comes to their training goals and how their training doesn't always make sense when it comes to their training goals. So they end up getting injured, and that's kind of what shaped what we do do at amp right now. I don't know how much detail, you know, I should go into about that.

But I was about to ask, you know, because I recognize. And for the record, for anyone who's listening, I'm totally putting them on the screen. These are not. Like, I did not give him these questions before we started, but if you wouldn't mind, can you share a little more about what specifically, like, what happened in that injury that caused you to kind of. Basically. Because it sounds like that was the linchpin, for lack of a better word, that that was what transitioned and changed everything for you.

Yeah, 100%. And I don't mind talking about it. I mean, the injury, in hindsight, is literally what pushed me to actually, like, start a company and, like, break away from what I didn't think was working. But basically what happened was three years ago, I had a couple boxes fall on my head when I was at work, and obviously, I had a brain injury from that and I had a neck injury. And when it happened, like, I just got, like, a jolt of pain down my arm. But, you know, within the first, like, five, ten minutes, I thought everything was kind of fine. And then after that, I just kind of, like, took a nosedive, and, like, my health started to decline. I was going, like, from two different doctors, and no one can really, like, explain to me what was happening. So a lot of the answers I was getting were just, like. They weren't even answers. They were just basically telling me, like, you know, this doesn't really make sense. This isn't what we would expect. But no one was telling me, like, what I should expect or why it didn't make sense. So I kind of got, like, very frustrated. At the time, I was training for half marathons, and the same day that I got injured, I literally ran my fastest half marathon that I've run in my life. And then later that day, this happened, and no one could tell me why I wasn't able to do basic things and why it was not recovering in the right way, which is very frustrating because I'm trying to figure out how to get back to work and how to get back to doing all these things I want to do. And all I had were medical professionals telling me that things just weren't making sense, you know, So I didn't really have any direction or guidance or anything along those lines, which was super frustrating.

Yeah, for sure. Were you a PT at this point?

I was a PT at this point, yeah. Yeah. I was probably like four years into my career or so. It actually happened while I was at work, you know, getting ready to treat patients. And I. That's how I found out that something wasn't right. Because right when it happened, the box fell on my head and I had a semi pro rugby player coming in, and when I was talking to him, I was kind of like forgetting what he was telling me. And then I went to show him like a warm up and I went to show him like a single leg deadlift and I lost my balance and then like the room started spinning. So I got like crazy very fast. So. But I wasn't tt to answer your original question. Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. So that must have been, you know, doubly, doubly frustrating because one, you've been an athlete your whole life. You've just run this fastest, this fast marathon, and you're a pt. And that feeling of like, why can't I figure this out? Or why can't other people figure this out? For me, that must have been just so mentally soul crushing.

Soul crushing? Like draining. Yeah. Like, I mean, I would just like, literally spend days because I couldn't. I couldn't do stuff right. I couldn't go out. I couldn't, like, you know, like, walk to my mailbox without getting, like, ridiculously busy and feeling, like, uncomfortable being outside. So I would just literally sit here and like, try to, like, rationalize why things were happening in my head. And I couldn't for a while at least. And then, you know, stuff started to make sense.

But so then what happened? So then how did you go from that to where you are now?

Yeah, so like, long journey, we'll say. Like the first 10 months after the injury, I was out of work. I was essentially kind of getting fun around the medical system, going to different professionals and different specialists, you know, for some of the issues that I was having, whether it was vestibular, visual, all these different things. And that really just wasn't working for me. And then one day I heard Ben House talk on a podcast about prolonged concussion symptoms, like low testosterone and people who have prolonged concussion symptoms. Things like related to stress and how that, you know, obviously, you know, unregulated stress and how that affects people. So I just, honestly just emailed him and was like, hey, man, like, I heard you talk on this podcast. You basically described me. Do you think you can help me? And we got on a call, just like we're doing right now, over zoom. Like, the guy lived in another country at the time, and he kind of gave me the tools that I needed to figure things out. And it was really like the. The way that he approached helping me was something that I hadn't seen in the medical world. And it's really the reason that we do things at AMP now the way that we do them is because of how I felt, like, how impactful I felt, the discussions that I had with him were and the way that he managed, you know, my case.

That's amazing. And so once you started working with Dr. House, what was the, you know, and I know you said it was a long journey, but what were. Did you notice that you were recovering quickly? Like, were you having exponential response, you know, responses to what he was saying? Like, what were some of the things that he did that were or that, you know, you guys have come up with together? Because I know it was collaborative. What would you say were different?

Yeah, I mean, I mean, the results, honestly, like, they were. They were pretty insane. Like, in three days, two days, three days, I was able to do a lot of things I wasn't able to do before. And a lot of it came down to like, you know, one of the first things we did in the process was just understand like my blood chemistry. So, you know, I got blood work done and a lot of the things that showed up in my blood work were something you would expect in just like an under recovered athlete. Right, or under recovered individual. Like, I had like, like lower, like white blood cell counts than you would expect in like a healthy person. Lower, like, like testosterone levels in a person who was healthy. So essentially all we really did was just take a look at my lifestyle now and the things that I was doing and figure out how to give them to me. Honestly, I think the majority of what helped me in the short term was bumping up the types of calories I was eating. We literally doubled how much food I was eating. And I just really think that I didn't have energy available to me to both recover and, and like, meet the demands of just like the basic tasks that I do on a daily basis. So those types of things are really like, what we did and then obviously like he's, you know, he approaches things. The way that I kind of look at them too is, is like I have specific goals that I want to accomplish. Like, training is something that's important to me. So, like, how can we get me to a point where I can't really train at the level I want to? How can we get me doing something that resembles training so that I can at least start building my base up? Because essentially what I think happened to me and I. This is what I think happens to a lot of people who struggle with pain for a while is, you know, they. The medical system detrains people, right? It deconditions people because their knee jerk reaction is this person has something that hurts. So let me just take them away from what's hurting them so that it feels better. But then they go back to doing whatever it was, right? If it's running, right, they go back to running after not running and they get the same injuries over and over again. So essentially they just are detrained. And that's kind of what happened to me. I had 10 months of my life where I went from being at like my peak level of activity to being able or like struggling to like, get off the couch and like, go get the mail from the mailbox, like insane. And then, like, that's really what I think happened. So he just really found. Helped me find where I'm at and gave me an actionable plan to build my base up to a level that was, you know, where I'm at today.

So that's incredible. And so what I'm also hearing you say too is something that, you know, I definitely want to go deeper on is that, you know, the medical system and the way that it's set up is to basically remove the stressor or the perceived stressor from what's causing the pain. And what essentially you're saying is, no, we need to add stress, but we need to add an appropriate amount of stress to increase that base level. How does someone determine whether and you know, determine a level of stress of like, oh, that's a good amount. This is going to help versus, you know, perpetuating the pain.

Yeah, that's a loaded question.

But yeah, into that too, because I think a lot of. Or clinicians too, they might even be, you know, might be like, yes, I'm on board with this, but it can be scary to approach it. So how is it that you can, you know, conceptualize that approach?

Yeah, for sure. So the first thing I try to understand, right, and it comes down to, like, how you assess a person. Right. So I have like my, my general assessments that like I use and the other therapists and coaches who see people from AMP use to kind of identify where a person might be restricted in mobility in their body and how from that point we have to relate it to the activities that they're trying to do. You know, so most people where they struggle, especially in like a training situation is that they just don't have the right activities to get them towards, towards their goal. So with an assessment in the way we look at things is we try to identify where that gap might be so we can fill it in terms of a person. Like I always try to help them try to appreciate the amount of volume, for example, of the activity that they're trying to do that allows them to feel pretty good and not have pain because that is almost like their baseline. Right. And then we can from there figure out a way to push that level higher and higher. I see.

So. Okay, I see. So it comes down to the assessment essentially.

Yeah, it comes down to the assessment and understanding where a person is at currently too. Right. Like we need to be able to, I look at my role is helping a person bridge the gap from where they are being injured and whatever their performance related goal is. Performance meaning like it could literally mean like not have knee pain when I walk to the bathroom or it could be like I need to play a sport. There's some, there's something that, that is contributing to why they're not able to do that now. And I look at it as my assessment needs to help me figure out like what it is in the way their body moves that is likely contributing to the situation that they're, that they're in. So that I can then help them address it through, you know, appropriate, whether it's exercise selection or lifestyle modification or usually some combination of the two.

So now one of the things that I am curious is how do you create client buy in and manage fear? And so what I mean specifically about that is I feel based on what you've been saying and based on your experience, undoubtedly there's going to be people come to you that have tried everything. They've been in 10 months of recovery, they're still in pain and they can't uncover the reasons or what to do to get out of it. So inevitably there's got to be some sense of, you know, worry or fear around is this gonna work and is this going to help me or hurt me? How do you navigate that?

Yeah, that's, that's, that's a struggle first for me, but it's something that, you know, I think first it's kind of meeting the person where they're at and understanding kind of their journey and what they've been through and explaining not, you know, I don't like to say that other medical professionals were wrong because I don't want to like to paint that picture, but helping a person to appreciate that there's. There's kind of more out there, right, than, like, your back hurts and you've been doing these same things for so long and it didn't work. So what makes you think that, you know, keeping. Continuing to do these things is going to be helpful? Right. Usually, like, people, honestly, by the time they come to us, they're like, you know, it didn't make sense that I was doing, like, this stretch for six months and I wasn't getting better, and I just continued to do the same stress. They kind of intuitively understand that. So I usually just try to bring that out without, you know, sounding like a jerk or, you know, you know, like calling out another. Another medical professional, because that's not my job. That's just going to add confusion to the situation, you know, but usually if someone reaches out to us, they realize that something is not going in the right direction and that something different needs to happen. I don't know if that answers that question.

Yeah, no, it does. It's just typically, you know, and I hear what you're saying, too, because when we're dealing with other medical professions, you know, know, in other pts, you know, we're dealing with two things. People are just doing the best that they can with what they know. And then you also have that ego element and nobody wants to, you know, some. You either got the types of people that are like, there's more out there. I can get better. I can, you know, sharpen the saw or, you know, good is good enough, and they don't need to, you know, they feel like, okay, I've already done PT school and that's it. That's it, and I'm fine and everyone, you know, some people get better and some people don't. So I feel like there's just, you know, it can be. It can be hard to navigate it based on what. Where people are in terms of the actual professional.

Yeah, no, that's. That's very true, too. And managing, like, egos and like, listen, we all have ego, right? I have my biases and I'm wrong all the time, you know, but what, what, what helps me is to, to. To appreciate, obviously accepted, that's a fact, right? And appreciate that someone might have answers that I don't have, you know, and knowing that, that that's the reality. But like, I always just try to make sure that, you know, the way that I communicate to a person is at a level that obviously they can understand and is not really. I don't want. Like, the last thing I want to do is put negative thoughts about like their journey so far and how they've gotten to this to the point that they're at. Because if I start like saying like, listen, this clinician did, they did the best they could with you, but their knowledge base just wasn't where it needed to be to get you to the next level. Like, that's gonna put some doubts in that person's head. And that's kind of what I experienced as a patient myself, you know, And I was just like, you know, I went through this weird journey where I was like, man, I wasted like 10 months of my life. But ultimately those 10 months of my life got me to meeting Ben, right? And then got me to the next person and got me to the next person, you know, so like that had to happen for me to come to the realization, you know, so I just try to help other people realize that, you know, listen, things happen for a reason and you're here now, so this is what we need to do to move forward. You know, the other thing that I find too, and this might just be my bias, but people don't realize that when you're dealing with injuries, you're dealing with pain, you're dealing with training, like all these things are very non linear. There's a ton of gray that is involved with it. It's not black and white, right? So when like I hear people's stories and their, they're confused about why, like I had this MRI and I have like this like an L5S1 disc herniation. Why does this person tell me I need to do all these things because I have this type of injury and now I come here, you're telling me something different. And what you're telling me is helping, like I just can't bridge that gap. You know, why that makes sense to me, you know, And I think like so much, you know, we rely so much as a medical community on like these medical diagnoses and like these like patho anatomical injuries and waiting for like what an MRI tells us, that it just gets confusing for a patient and they can't rationalize in their head, right? Like, why do I have this certain injury? And I'm doing two different things. One's helping, one's not. This thing that's supposed to help me is not helping me. Because, you know, for whatever reason, like, I think like helping to bridge that gap is pretty important for the buy in, but at the same time showing them that these things are like going to give you a meaningful impact on your situation. Like, it's usually enough to get a person to be like, okay, this is different. And it's kind of what I need right now.

So good. So, you know, I get that and I love, I live my life by that knowing that everything is happening for me and it's for my greatest good and either getting the success that I want or the lesson that I need. So I definitely get that. But, you know, where do you think and why do you know, where do you think the medical profession and the PT profession goes wrong for people?

Yeah, so, and again, this is my experience. I think I'm not like trying to judge or criticize in a negative way, but I think that a lot of times, you know, we ignore obvious questions and we ignore obvious things. So what I mean by that, like, if someone has like a training related injury, like to me it makes sense to teach them how to do the thing that's causing them to get injured in a correct way so that they don't get injured and they can keep doing that. But most people look at things like, oh, this person is coming to me, they're a like back patient. So let me treat them for like how I would treat a back patient. Like I'm going to give them all the same stretches, I'm going to give them all the same whatever, you know, it is. And I'm ignoring the obvious fact that this person has something that they're doing that is putting stress on their body in a way that they can't tolerate at the moment. Right. Like to me, when I see like a power lifter and like every power lifter I've ever seen that has an MRI has the same like disc herniation. Right? Like, why do they have those disc herniations? It's not like, oh, they have a disc herniation, so let me treat them a certain way. It's like, what is it that they're doing that's putting pressure on these specific areas that, you know, we can make an impactful change on? Because if you change that, then the person's going to feel a lot better, you know, most of the time. But if we focus on things like medical diagnoses and you know, treating a person like they're like, you know, whatever that diagnosis is is where, where we kind of struggle as an industry.

Yeah. You know, and I've talked about this on the podcast before, that that idea of, you know, building out your network is very important and we need to be able to feel confident and comfortable to share with our clients, you know, looking at them as a whole person and creating the people around you that can help in areas that you can't. But I think what happens a lot to trainers specifically, and I also think pts too, is that they don't. They look at it in terms of, you know, oh, well, my PT said I can't train anymore. So then they don't want, the trainer doesn't want to send them to PT because the PT will say, don't train, you can't work out anymore, you can't train, you can't lift. So, you know, how can a trainer navigate? You know, how can a trainer start to build the type of, you know, what are some of the things that a trainer can be looking for both in symptoms of their page, of their, of their client and also in, in building good, a good connection, a good network with a physical therapist?

Yeah, for sure. And just like, I mean, I agree with you 100%. Like, I see the same thing. Like before COVID I would train out of a crunch in my town and I would literally hear the same trainer tell clients every day, like, don't waste your time going to a PT because they're going to just have you do this stretch. So just do this stretch. And in a way, like, he's kind of right, you know, like that's typically like, unfortunately, right. Like that's typically what you're going to get. You're going to essentially just waste time not training. Right? But like, that's horrible to say as a physical therapist, but like, I could totally like understand where this first person is coming from. Right. And it goes the other way too, because I've seen physical therapists, right, who like, and again, this is just, I'm not trying to knock anyone, but like we have Dr. In front of our name and for some people, they think that means, you know, more than it does. Right. Because what they're, what essentially happens is, you know, they, they take a person away from training when that person really needs is not like low level exercises on a table. They need to know how to train in a way that's smart for them. So what that comes down to, to answer Your original question for a trainer trying to build a network is one, obviously like having a professional in your corner who understands what you do. But also, you know, as a trainer, you have the ability to really impact a person. And it just comes down to how. I mean, when I say impact a person, I mean more than any medical professional, in my opinion, because you are working with these people every single day or multiple times a week, week. And people love going to their trainer, so they're going to go. Having an assessment process to dictate the exercise selection that you're choosing for a person is very, very important because you can at least identify why a person might have pain with a certain movement. And learning how to speak to a person about pain and not make it like this scary thing that we have to run away from. Hugely important. Because that's the difference between a person being afraid to lift their arm to get something out of the cabinet, or a person being okay with, oh, that might hurt a little bit, maybe I just modify it and I'm able to complete that task. So as a trainer, you can learn all these skills, right? And you're not. You're not trying to become like an amateur clinician, but you are able to be a better trainer, right? Because that's going to put you in a position to help people more. And if you're not comfortable with those things, having someone like myself, right, who understands the training aspect of the training side of things. And honestly, like, when I look at what I do as a person, like, I'm just basically like a glorified trainer, right? I just. I'm a trainer who has, like, doctor in front of my name. That's what I do. I just teach people how to train in a way that is sustainable for them. So having someone like that who can, you know, work with you collaboratively on a client is hugely important because ultimately, the goal is the client, right? And getting the client results and getting the client success. So from the client's perspective, if you have a person like that in your network, like, to me, that's making you that much more valuable, you know, to. As a trainer. Yeah, I don't know if that answers the question. I feel like I just rambled there.

But it does, too. And I. But you bring up a good point that I definitely want to expand upon. And I think that trainers could pay attention to this is that idea of pain, I think, and that word pain, there's a lot of fear that is associated with that word pain. And I think that at the risk of you Know, and I think that trainers feel like, I don't want to be an amateur clinician. I. Maybe they're afraid of pain, you know, and maybe a clinic client has trouble, you know, distinguishing the difference between pain and discomfort because they are different. So how. How do you recommend a trainer assess whether or not, like, okay, you know, where. Where is the line of pain for a trainer to pass over and say, this isn't for me?

Yeah, I think that's. That's a. That's probably a very good thing for a trainer to know. Yeah. So I would say, like, one. If you can't, like, coach a person out of pain or you can't put them in a position or an exercise to achieve the same goal without a person being in a pain, then it's probably a sign that you need to look further. So what I mean by that is if, like, you're trying to get a person to back squat, but they just feel like, pinch in their hip every single time, if you can't coach them out of that or tell them, like, hey, let's try like a goblet squat, and that basically go away, then you know, we're okay, right? If you can. If you can, like, attribute what they're feeling to the activity that they're doing. But if a person has stuff that's lingering, right, for. We're talking like, weeks, months, something. Some people have the same pain on and off for, like, years. It's crazy. Like, that's probably a sign that you need to be able to refer to someone that you trust who can help you figure this out, you know, and that's a lot of. Honestly, like, we do that, right? Like, we have coaches in our area who, like, we consult with on clients because, like, we'll literally have them in the gym with their client, and I'll be on a zoom call with them like this, putting them through motions if I can't be there in person. Right. Because it's sometimes it's just identifying what. What stressor they have in their training that is currently causing them to be in pain. And it's really just a simple, like, let's give them a different exercise to get them out of this and, you know, train that for a while to build them back up so there's. There's not really, like, too fine of a line. It's more like if you can't coach them out of it, like, probably just find someone who can help you figure that out. But it's also important too, right, to understand as a coach that not all pain is bad. Not all pain is scary. But how you frame it to a person might make it scary to them. It doesn't mean that there's injury. It doesn't mean that there's something going on inside. Where we need to get an mri, because I see that a lot is a trainer will be afraid to coach a person who feels, like, low back pain. But the reality is, like, what person doesn't ever feel low back pain? So, like, as a trainer, like, it's important to get comfortable, like, navigating those situations and learning exercise progressions and ways to assess, to take a, you know, pivot a person's program so that they can keep doing the things that they want to do, but also using language that's not like, hey, your back hurts. You know what? We got to get you an mri. Maybe go see an orthopedic, because there's probably something going on with, like, you know, like, you see that jump a lot and like, that. That does a lot more harm than good. Because now you're planting that seed in a person head like, oh, maybe like, crap, there's something going on on the inside that I don't know about.

Yeah. But you also bring up a good point, because I remember my, you know, my clients, gen pop or general population, they. If they felt low back pain, they were like, oh, I know this is bad or wrong. And you'd be like, wait a second, you got muscles back there? We still are. We still gotta work them. You're gonna feel them. It's normal.

Yeah. Like, this is okay. Right? Just making. Yeah, it's different. Right. Or, like, even too. Right. So say someone does a new activity, right. With their trainer and they wake up the next day and their back is, like, super stiff.

Yeah.

Like, that sucks. But it's happened to all of us. It still happens to me sometimes. Right. Like, and, you know, I'm pretty good at, like, identifying what an appropriate, like, activity for a person is.

Yes.

Like, how do you navigate that conversation? Like, oh, crap. You know what? That's good information for me. That's a data point for me now. Like, that's just too much volume. Right. So don't get freaked out. Or maybe we, like, tucked your hip too much on that one. You know, so we just.

One bad rep. Or you did one rep too many, or you did one rep too heavy. Right. That's. It's going to happen. But good thing humans are resilient.

We bounce back. Like, the likelihood of a bad injury happening from that is very, very low. If it was a bad injury, you would have known, like in the moment. So we just did a little too much of the wrong thing, you know, next time we know, let's not do that much or do something a little different, you know.

Yes. Yes, for sure. Okay. So you know, and I'm also curious because you've talked a lot about the, the assessment and how you spend a lot, you know, you spend a lot of time assessing your clients or your patients, rather do. How often do you assess? Is it one of those, like one and done? Are you assessing every time that you work together? Is there, like, what is your process for assessing?

Sure. So I work in the realm of people with injuries and pain. So for me, I am assessing because that's going to dictate what activity I think the person needs to do or where I need to take the program. I, in the moment, will reassess them on the measures that I think are important because I would expect those things to get better on the spot. Not saying they're going to stay better forever, but I choose my exercises based on the assessment. So if my assessment is not improving, then I gave them the wrong exercise. So I have to pivot. So I base the decisions on then what I do with a person's training program based on that. So I'm going to assess like a typical client, for example, who comes to us. I don't really see people like session to session. I typically see them for a client, for example, who comes to us. I don't really see people like session to session. I typically see them for a session and then I program for them and then we have a follow up in like two weeks or follow up in a month or whatever it might be. So the assessment is going to kind of really vary on that. But I know at least that the activities I gave them because I retested them right away are the right types of things. And if things don't go the right way, I'm in constant communication, you know, so I can kind of adjust on the fly. But ideally, I'm assessing every single time I see a person for a trainer. Right. What they could probably do is have maybe one or two meaningful tests that they can use to test, retest within a session. Because ideally, right, the exercises you're choosing for a person should make a ton of sense for that person, whether it's their anatomy, whether it's their anatomy, their training goals, like all these things, you can make better decisions and you should see those tests literally improve. So like, for example, if you Use like a person's ability to squat deep as one of your tests. I would expect the activities that you choose or the exercises that you put in a program, a person's program, to improve that. So at the end of the session they should be able to squat deeper without feeling uncomfortable or without feeling pain. And if they're not, then that tells me either the exercises were wrong, you didn't coach it correctly, or the person had no idea what they were doing and they couldn't perform or execute the activity well enough. So those are kind of like the thought processes that I go through. So the assessment to me is kind of everything because it's going to dictate, you know, the way that we train a client.

So. Okay, that's great. So also kind of a follow up to that question is, you know, you've mentioned that you train or you work a lot with people who are, let's call them active. So they might not necessarily be, you know, avid athletes or have an athletic background in terms of sport performance, but they are the type of people that are very active. They love to run or they love to, to do their yoga and they get hurt. Right. And you spend a lot of time getting them to perform back to their performance, performance space, for lack of a better word. But is there ever a time then in their rehab process that you slow it down and you do some of the low, low impact activity? Like how long are you spending in the. At the very beginning?

Sure. So obviously this depends, client, client to client, 100%. And I can give you an example of someone that we just, we just started working with. This person sent me a video. He's a, someone who is aspiring to be an Olympic lister. And he has been training with a coach on Olympic lifting and on his off stage he does his own, his own programming. He sent me a video after a week, a week after he had a heavy squat session. And he looked like like a 90 year old dude getting off the couch for the first time in weeks. Like this kid is like, he's like 25 years old or something. Like nobody should be in that kind of pain, right? So for him what we did is it was literally like two. I don't even know if I call them low level exercises. I always call them like core exercises because people relate to that, right? So I gave him two of those like lower level core exercises. And that took the pressure out of his back and literally his program was training. I'm like, here's what you're doing, here's where I Think we need to go with your training program. So on your days he's still Olympic lifting. So on there's days where you're not Olympic lifting, this is what you need to do so that you are able to stay out of pain and still be able to train at the level you want to train at. So you have to be able to adjust kind of like your, your day to day routine to support your end goal, which is performance based. Right. So your lifestyle needs to reflect that. Your training on those off days needs to reflect that. So for him, it was really, he does like two low level exercises a day and then he's training at that point. Just in a way that's nice for other people. Like if you have a yoga person, you know, maybe for them it's how do we modify your, your yoga moves so you can, I don't know what they're called. Poses, your yoga poses, yoga moves. You can tell I'm doing a lot of yoga, but like, how do I, how do I modify your, the activities you're doing so you can do that, right? It doesn't have to look like a low level activity, but at the same time, I use those low level activities with people. It's just the, the volume of those. It really depends, you know, because people have specific goals. So I try to not have a person on a treatment table if I don't think they want to be on a treatment table or they tell me that they'd rather be up and down moving and doing stuff.

So do you think then it is possible? Because I think that this runs. You know, a lot of people run into this too, which is that they have someone who need, who in their mind think, they think, oh, this person needs to slow down or they're gonna get hurt. But they're like, no, I'm obsessed with Barry Spookamp or Orange theory and I'm just gonna go, go, go, go, go. Do you, do you think that it's possible then for them to train them in that way without hurting them?

Potentially, yes, but also no.

What do you do with that type of person?

Yeah, that's a great question. So. And we have someone like that actually pre Covid, who was someone who literally trained six days a week at orangetheory. And I am not knocking orangetheory at all, but I don't think that that type of training, which is very, very high intensity, is sustainable for the majority of people in this world. Because essentially what we need, right, is in order to improve, we need to apply a stress. We need to apply it in a way that gets us to our goal. But we also need the ability to recover from that stress. Because ultimately we want to do is take our set point as a human and make it higher. Right? To be able to get better at that, whatever performance measure it is. So what happens with a lot of people, especially as in that, and I'm not picking on Orange Theory, but I'm just using it because that's the example that came up. And this person did do orange was at. Orange Theory is essentially what happens is you're just accumulating stress that your body probably isn't able to recover from. And that's when stuff starts to hurt. And a lot of times too, it's the repetitive motions. You're doing the same types of movements over and over and over again. So the likelihood that your body is going to stress certain areas over and over and over again is pretty high. So what I would do with a person like that is one, on an intuitive level, they need to be able to understand that, like, okay, that kind of makes sense, right? So it's meeting them where they're at as a human being in their knowledge base and all that type of stuff. But two is giving them something that they can do to fill that void that still makes them, you know, feel like they're active in training. The reality is, if there's a reason why they feel they need to go do these high intensity exercises every single day, for some people it might be like, I don't know, maybe it's like stress relief, right? For some people, it might be like they had success with like losing a ton of weight doing that, and they don't want to like go back to doing that. So it's finding what that deeper meaning is for a person and then relating what I think it is they need to do back to. That is usually how I can get a person to buy in on those types of things.

Such an important part that I feel like most trainers miss, which is that they want, you have to be able to uncover the why they're working like that. Because just like you're saying there is a level of diminishing returns at some point in any type of training program. And for the record, you know, Orange theory is not set up to come. I mean, I guess it depends on the Orange theory, but it's not one of those programs that they're saying, come do this six times a week. They don't want that. It's just one component of a strength training program. So that is a really key ingredient in your assessment is finding out why.

Are they doing that, why are you doing it? Yeah. And listen, it's not just trainers too. It's pts. Like if you're a PT or a doctor or orthopedic surgeon or whoever, and you tell a runner to stop running, like you already lost them because, like, there's literally no runner in the world that's gonna stop running, right? That's not the. You're not gonna be able to help that person. So it's like understanding, like the why right behind why why it is they feel they need to keep doing what they're doing at the same level they're doing is. It's a huge, huge component, you know, And I think like, like, I don't know what the principles called, like the 80, 20 rule, right? Doritos principle. You get like 80% of what I already know I'm gonna do with a person. I get just from having like a conversation like this with them and figuring out how to tease out, like, the information that I need to make, help them make sound decisions with whatever it is they're trying to do. And that's something that gets lost a lot in training. But even I think more so in the medical world because people are like, like, you have doctors who are making snap, like, judgments about, like, your future in five minutes of meeting you. And, like, they're literally recommending like, invasive procedures, surgeries and MRIs and things that are probably unnecessary. You know, at first glance. You know, when you're working with a person, when they really could be delving deeper into a situation and understanding what, you know is going on with a person that is making them feel like they need to do what it is that they're doing, because then you can make better decisions about how to help them.

That's such a good point. We talk about this in the mom world all the time, right? That six week checkup of, hey, you're good to go. It's an arbitrary. And that's just something that is standardized in the medical field. Like, I'll never forget, I was, you know, I was my doctor, without even doing an internal exam, said, yeah, you're good to go. And I said, really? I just had massive surgery, six weeks, good to go, doing what I was doing before, like, that's just arbitrary, right? And I, you know, and you also have pelvic floor physical therapists who will tell a mom who has a prolapse, like, okay, you're never picking up your baby again. You can't tell that To a mom that's never going to happen.

Yeah, but what's your fix there, right, Is like teach them how to pick up their baby in a way that's like safe, right? Like, yeah, but that's unfortunately, like, you see that, that type of thinking and rationale, like I call it rationale. It's not even a rationale. I don't know what it is. But like, you see that more often than not. And it leads to literally like I've seen like people have life changing surgeries because of medical mismanagement and that's a scary thing to me. I mean, it's very scary. And I was going down that path, not necessarily surgery, but like I had people making decisions about or helping me to make decisions about my health that you know, really didn't take into account all the things that I wanted to do. Like I had doctors trying to help me with my life who have never like trained hard one day. They've never run, you know, even a mile. And I'm telling them my goal Is to run 13 again. Like, that's literally what I want to do. And they're trying to help me get there, but they can't because they literally don't understand these things that I'm trying to tell them they can't understand, you know, like why it is important to me.

Yeah, I think it comes from two things, right. I think it comes from. Because I see this happen a lot, you know, for trainer, with trainers especially what young ones that are new ones that are trying to build businesses is that they are just so inundated with volume in terms of the amount of sessions or the amount of people that they're seeing that they are forgetting to reset and remember that they are talking to a human, that they're not a number. It's not just another kickoff, it's not just another strategy session. And while you have been doing a million of them in your mind, this person, it's the first time you're sitting down with this person.

Human being.

And I think the same thing happens to medical profession professionals and PTs because, you know, they're human too. So I think sometimes it has to do with the amount of volume that they're seeing.

Yeah, that. That totally is 100% true. And like, I would struggle. This is why I also run amp the way that I run amp because like, you could be the best trainer, you could be the best medical professional, the best doctor, the best pt. But if you can't, like literally I would have patients coming in every single 20 minutes, all day. In a 12 hour day, like I'm seeing 30 people in a day. There's like literally no way I can be effective no matter how good I am or think I am or whatever. Right. I'm gonna like, maybe the first couple people, they're gonna get me at my best and then I'm shot and then like, good luck, you know, like at that point, right? You don't want to be the first, like my 26th person on that day. So like, for me, like, I couldn't be successful in that setting and I don't honestly think anyone can. It's not fair. You're kind of set up for failure, right? This is the reason, like, we literally get people who are excited because I call them back when I say I'm going to call them back or I text them when I say I'm going to text them because they're so used to like a doctor, like, not returning a phone call for a week. Like, and that sucks. Like, I'm sure that doctor doesn't want that to be the situation, you know, because he signed on to help people. Right? That's like ultimately, like I would imagine what most people get into being a physical therapist or a medical professional or trainer for, to help people. And now you can't literally call a person back and help them because you have so many other people that you're trying to manage, you know, wild world.

Yeah, it's hard. And we're human beings. And the other component too that you were talking about is that, you know, people are taught to trust authorities on blind faith. Right? On blind faith. Just because it says you're a doctor or just because someone said it right then and sometimes they don't know, you know, people don't know what they don't know. Ask you, or they know how to, how to navigate their situation. They're just taught to blindly trust because what else is there? Right? Which is why being a trainer is such a powerful position because we are oftentimes the first line of defense. Someone said it right then. And sometimes they don't know. You know, people don't know what they don't know.

Always. Yeah.

Because we won't. We. And that's something, you know, that one of my mentors, Brianna Battles, used to say all the time, is that because people don't know what they don't know, but if we, as you know, fitness professionals can look at a situation and help people have clarity on what it is that they're going through, that is one of the most Powerful things we can do for someone.

Yeah, I 100% agree with you. And it's interesting you say that. I had my. One of my good friends referred his father to me, like, last week or two weeks ago. And this friend of mine is a trainer. He's a very, very, very good personal trainer. And the thing his dad said to me was so interesting. He was like, I just wish that my son, like, felt that he was able to. To do what you're, like, doing with me because literally, you're helping me train. Right. My son can do this. I'm like, he can definitely do this. He just doesn't have, like, the confidence to do it. Right. He doesn't have the ability to do it, or he doesn't think he has the ability to do it, but he 100% does. Because the same things I was recommending for his dad, his son was recommending for him. Right. Like, I'm not doing anything special, But I have Dr. In front of my name, you know, so this person who is a good friend of mine and a trainer, like, thought that I was a better person to. To help him out, and maybe I was because I'm not a family member, you know, so it's hard to work with family.

That nuance, too. Yeah, for sure.

But, like, I never thought of it from that perspective. But when his dad said that to me, he's like, I wish that he would just have the confidence to, you know, realize the position that he's in to help people, because he essentially can do it. Right. He can help people make better decisions about their health, which is essentially what I do. Right. And it's what every trainer can do. They just need to be confident that they can do it and have an assessment process that helps them get to, you know, a point where they can make those decisions or help a person make those decisions about themselves.

Yeah. And I think it goes. And I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier in that sense of, like, you don't need to be afraid if you have that assessment in place and then you know what to look for and you have those benchmarks where you're saying, okay, this is persistent. It's time to now delegate it out. I think that having that assessment and having those benchmarks can be what gives you that confidence, because then you'll feel competent 100%.

Yeah. Like, that's the. Like you said, the first. First line of defense. Right. Like, I always look at it as I'm trying to make, like, clients of amp, you know, not be Clients of amp. Like, I want them to not be, like, a victim of, like, the medical system, and victim's such a horrible word to use, but, like, I don't want them to get thrown into that, like, vicious cycle where they're, like, not getting answers and they're going from person to person and trying to, like, figure out and rationalize why they're always injured or hurt. A trainer can do those. Those things, right? You just need to have a way to assess it. You need to have a way to make, you know, actionable decisions and, you know, put your client in the best position to, you know, succeed, essentially. And to me, that always comes back to how you assess a person, how you do your intakes, how you're, you know, understanding the person on a. On a human level.

So good. Okay, So I definitely want to be mindful of your time, but I think that especially because you have given us so many really awesome nuggets to ponder, and I think one of the obvious questions now has become, okay, well, what next? And if that's the case, you know, where can I learn? Or where can I find out more about the type of assessment I could be putting together?

Sure thing. So what we are going to be doing on September 17th is the date. So we are hosting a. Where we are going to literally teach the assessment that we use at amp. You're going to walk away literally knowing exactly what we do. So this is for people who are personal trainers who have clients who have, I mean, pretty much every client you probably work with, right, who has some kind of nagging injury, nagging stiffness, nagging pain, and they can't seem to make it go away. This is for clinicians, right? We have a lot of young pts who DM me questions all the time, and student physical therapists. This is a good time for you to learn exactly how we use the assessment process that we do to dictate what we are going to do with a person so that they can actually get results and not get thrown into a medical system that probably won't be able to help them or give them solutions that are going to keep them feeling uncomfortable and in pain. And this is also for your gen pop person, right? Your person who just wants to understand how they can make better decisions with what they're doing in the gym so that they are not hurt all the time or not feeling like crap all the time so they don't have to pay me money to help them figure these things out. I'm literally going to just teach it to you for free so you can make better decisions.

I love that. Okay. And of course, we're going to link all of that in the show notes so that if you are interested in learning more about that, you'll know exactly where to go. And also, so thank you so much for this. It's been really awesome. Where are you hanging out? Where can I send people to learn more about you?

Sure. So we are most active on Instagram. Our handle is ampperformancerehab. You can email me at any time. It's Sean. S h a u npp performancerehab.com and then Facebook. We are also active on Facebook. Yeah. Amp Performance rehab. You'll probably find us there as well.

Okay, awesome. Thanks so much for hanging out with me today, Sean.

Beverly. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Thanks so much for hanging out with us today. If you like this video, chances are your friends will too. So be sure to hit like, hit subscribe and tap that bell to be notified when we send to you the latest and greatest next video. And I'll see you on the next video.