Building Trust and Using Referrals to Grow Your Small Business – Bjorn Burnett Interview– Small Business Show 176

The Small business show episode 176 for Wednesday, June 20, 2018 Greetings folks and welcome to the Small Business show here at BusinessShow Co, the show that is BFA by, for and about small business here in Durham, New Hampshire. I'm Dave Hamilton.

And I'm Shannon Jean. Very excited to be here today. How are you doing, Dave?

I am good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm excited to be here too. I always like doing the show.

That's good. Yeah, yeah, I do too.

I learned something.

I always get stressed leading up to it, but then I love it. During and after is great, right? That's very good. Hey, so today, you know, we're going to talk about a little different topic. You know, we always, well, we frequently focus on startups, new business and that can, you know, folks can kind of think maybe younger crowd or somebody getting going. But you know, what about the second career folks that are transitioning maybe from, you know, one. Yeah. One career and want to start something else up. And so I'm really happy today that we have a guest, Bjorn Burnett. And Bjorn, thanks for being with us here today. Appreciate it.

Thank you very much for having us, you guys.

Yeah, yeah. So let's, let's start with just talk about the background a little bit. I know you mentioned that you transitioned from being a firefighter and EMT to opening your own small business focused, you know, finance and wealth advising, that kind of thing. How did you get to that spot?

You know, ever since I was a little kid, I always wanted to work in a capacity where I'm serving the community, you know, making the world a better place. So I went to school to become a firefighter. So I got a degree with, you know, related to fire science and had a seven year career where I worked for, you know, the forest Service, various ambulance services and some different small rural fire departments.

Wow.

Wow, that's crazy. So you, you've been in, you've been in fires? I mean that's, that's pretty crazy.

Yeah, you know, I didn't go into many burning buildings. Most of my fire was, you know, you know, extremely larger than that there. You know, these forest fires that I was on would be, you know, you know, when you're standing near the ocean and you like feel that like power from the earth, you know, when you're standing, when you're standing, you know, you know, a few hundred yards or fifty yards from a whole forest on fire, you just feel this massive energy that, you know, not too many people really get a, get to see that Stuff and experience it. So, yeah, it was a really, it was a great career. I absolutely loved, you know, every minute of it. That's great.

Yeah, we talk about putting out fires in our businesses, but, man, this takes it to a whole different level.

Yep, it does.

It does. So let's talk about that transition of, you know, you have a few choices to make, right? You can go to work for someone else, doing something different and, or you can start your own business. And so how did you make that, you know, that choice? What was it compelled you to go.

Out on your own a few different ways. So, you know, for. To be like, in this career where, you know, people who get hurt and, you know, people who like, pass away. But when you start a career in a field like that, it kind of starts off normal and then you kind of, you know, you grow up. You know, I'm 34 now. You know, you get a little bit older, you know, meet a pretty girl and decide you want to get married, you start to think about those things. So that's what started to, you know, drive my decision making on, you know, what else can I be doing with my life where I can, you know, not be worrying about a tree falling on me and not coming home to my wife one day? Because that's the reality that I worked in. And you know, when that, when that tragedy happened in 2013 when we lost those 19 firefighters, that was definitely, you know, that community is really tight. And, you know, you work with guys, you know, every year. So, you know, I've been on those same fires of those guys. I did those same exact job as those guys. And that was when I started, you know, really thinking, okay, I have to, I have to make a change. Still want to be doing something where, you know, I'm able to kind of teach because I like being, being a leader, being an instructor, especially on the EMS side of things. And where's there, what kind of career can I have where I can make a business, own and do things my own way and still have like this layer of support and where is there, you know, a massive need in our society? And so when I was approaching it that way, you know, the. Where, you know, you know, like every kid after college, well, maybe not every kid. Speaking for myself, I made some terrible financial decisions regarding student loans, you know, credit cards, just stupid, stupid things that people do. You're not alone.

Yeah.

34 me now, but, you know, so I saw this, you know, this need and, you know, I took a financial class with my now wife, you know, like The Dave Ramsey class years ago. And that kind of changed, changed the course of our lives. You know, it got us living on a written budget, it got us, you know, attacking our debt like it was the enemy. And it, you know, you know, kind of, it changed the whole course. So, you know, all those things kind of aligned and I was, you know, interested in, you know, like, how could I impact my community, come home every night, be creative with who I work with and do things my own way and have this capacity to create some sort of, you know, or passive income. You know, I'm a huge fan, you know, like Pat Flynn and all, you know, Tim Ferriss, all that stuff. And so that's the stuff I've been listening to for years. And it's like, okay, well there's this need. What does it take to, you know, become an advisor? And you know, it. Basically what it takes is finding the company and taking a bunch of tests. Surprising to me. And so that's how I kind of got to where I am today.

Huh?

That's great. That's cool. So you get started, you get things good. Was there anything that really stood out that surprised you the most as you started on this journey to kind of go out on your own?

Thought I had a hard job as a firefighter and, and it was hard, you know, especially like, you know, physically and you know, it can be scary, things like that. It's hard running a business and you know, I, I'm used to, you know, these endurance type of activities of, you know, 15, 16 hour shifts, on your feet with a 20 pound back, backpack on, lugging a chainsaw, you know, pounding ground, falling trees for, you know, two weeks at a time, come home for two days, see my wife for like, you know, 12 waking hours and then go back out. And that was, you know, I thought of that as a hard job and it was a lot of fun but you know, I thought of that as a hard job. But man, starting a business is just, just challenging and you know, making that transition of counting the hours when you are, you know, an hourly or salary, you know, because on fire, I'd be like, okay, you know, you track your hours and this is the, this is the hazard pay, this is the overtime pay. And when you're starting a business, I mean you don't really make that much money of any money for a lot of people for a good amount of time sometimes, you know, I didn't make any significant money for six months.

Yeah.

So, you know, that was just the reality of it. And you know I was definitely what I was. You know, I heard about that, but I was like, you know what? I'll make it work. I'll figure it out. And so having the, you know, transitioning, that grit that I had of, you know, face down in the dirt, working hard, compared to the grit of waking up at 6:30, you know, getting my, getting my mindset ready for the day and, you know, putting myself in uncomfortable situations, calling people I'm scared of and doing this activity, you know, for, you know, 8, 10, 12 hours, and then it doesn't result in any money necessarily. You know, that activity might building a business. And so getting my, you know, transitioning into that of how I make money, you know, it's kind of surprising at first.

How did you, how did you go about that? Or how did you, how did you deal with that? How did you prepare for it? Because I, I, I certainly went through the same thing, you know, years and years ago, transitioning from having a salary to, you know, it went from getting a check every two weeks. When I was working for Citibank, I became a consultant, almost doing the same thing, but really kind of wanted to of my life and do some different stuff. And, and so I, I had to go three months without getting a check because it just took a long time for, even though I was working. Right. So, and I wasn't really prepared. I mean, I was sort of prepared for it. I, you know, it was, it worked out, it was totally fine. But when I got to the end of that, I realized, oh, this was super empowering because now I am no longer a slave to that check that shows up every two weeks. So I'm curious, how did you go through that process? Did you prepare for it or anything like that?

Yes, I did prepare for it. And you know, when I, when I think about the end of my fire career, so, you know, I, I, my last fire was in Prescott, Arizona, which is where the Granite Mountain shots were from. And that was, you know, very symbolic to me because that was the event that kind of led me to decide I wasn't going to fight fire anymore. And I came, I came home from that fire and I married my wife the next week. Wow.

Wow.

Yeah. And you know, of course I've been talking to my wife about how, like, this is probably my last fire season. Probably. I kept using probably. And you know, after, after we got married, you know, we had like a week before we went on our honeymoon. I was like, yep, that's my last one, honey, I'm done. I'm not Going back next year. And so basically I married my wife and quit my job. And, you know, we were used to that seasonal, you know, time off where I would, you know, do ski patrol or do these, you know, random construction jobs or whatever during the winter season. So we were used to that transition or that, you know, that time where I wasn't, you know, you know, bringing in the big bucks, if you will. Yep. And so we had that time period to go, you know, to get the transition going. And I had all my, you know, my savings because I, you know, prepare for, you know, I make the majority of my money six months out of the year. So we, you know, I had the savings ready, you know, my wife had a predictable income. And so I guess the way that we prepared for it was, you know, it was almost like transition than what we've done in the past.

But it sounds like your life sort of prepared you for it. You were used to that, that non. That inconsistency in cash flow. Right. Because that, that's the key. Yeah, cool. That's, that's helpful.

And just leaning on my wife, you know, leaning on her predictable income, you know, that I definitely, definitely couldn't do it without her.

Yeah, we've talked about that on the show. And I was in similar position many years ago, you know, starting my first business and having that support, you know, it can be critical in your long term success, that's for sure.

So.

Okay, I want to talk about, you know, you mentioned to me a couple times when we were trading emails about referrals and how referrals are really a key part of your business. And as you're trying to generate leads and maybe, you know, warm leads instead of those cold calls that we all hate to do. Let's talk about that. Have you come up with a successful, you know, system to develop, you know, these referrals that you get to where I would imagine it's kind of a, a fine line. Right. Because you don't want to constantly be drilling your friends for people to call for potential customers, but at the same time.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, you know, as a financial advisor, you know, the firm that I work under, you know, they wanted me to come with a list of 300 people to call. And I gave them a list of 300 people to call, but only 90 of them were, you know, actual people I could call. So I was kind of walking the fine line of like, no, they were loose connections. You know, they weren't, they weren't, you know, a good network. I had Because I, my, my existing network as a firefighter were firefighters, ski patrollers, you know, guys like that. So, you know, it's terrifying calling your warm market. It's terrible. I was so happy to get through it and get to my referrals because I do have a good referral system in place. And, you know, it comes to. Comes down to like, a couple things, like the discipline to always remember to ask. And it's just that discipline and consistency and being prepared to ask. And so when I say being prepared to ask for a referral, there's a couple ways I look at that. So I will make a feed list where I'll do appropriate social media stalking, just LinkedIn, Facebook, maybe I'll look on their business webpage. Who do they work with? And then also in my first initial meetings, you know, my fact finding meeting, first meeting with a prospect, you know, I'll talk about things like, hey, what do you guys do for fun? You know, like, oh, you know, I go hunting up on Kodiak island every year with my buddies from high school, you know, and okay, take a note, they're buddies from high school, John and Jeff, whatever. So I'll prepare these feed lists that I can put in front of my clients or my prospects. But to get to that point where you're asking for a referral, you know, you're gonna have so much more success if you've added value before you get to that point. You know, the way that my system is set up is everybody I work with is referral at this point in time. So it's like, you know, I'm really glad that Jim introduced us. We've been working together for a couple years now, still hunting up on Kodiak Island. You know, I'm really glad that worked out. So you're kind of planting these seeds along the way of. This is part of my overall process and also in my business. I'm in a business where I'm talking about relationships for 20, 30 years. That's a long time. I make promises to my clients for a long time, and they understand my business. They're not who make or break. One person is not going to make or break my career. They understand that for me to fulfill those promises that I need to keep growing my business, and obviously I'll get referrals from everybody.

Right, right back to where you said, okay, I've got to have added some value, really, before you ask for the referral. So is that added value? Basically, the services that your financial planning and that kind of wealth management that's what you're talking. That's the added value that they need to see before you would feel comfortable ask. Asking them for a referral.

Not necessarily. I mean, obviously that is a big part of that is like, usually the biggest value I add. But.

But it takes time, right?

That takes time. Yeah. That's. It's not like they're going to come to me and be like, oh, I'm so glad I bought this life insurance policy. I feel like there's a lot of value there. No, they. They start to see the value when they see, you know, their, their balance sheet grow.

Yeah.

So that takes time.

Yeah. So what? Short term, like, add value to where they feel because, you know, trying to put myself in that position, you know, and I've dealt with, you know, lots of folks over the years in your field, and they just. I get it. They ask for referrals. Is there anybody else that you can mention, but you want to do it in such a way that you do feel like, hey, if you introduce me to someone, I'm going to help them, I'm going to do something for them. Right.

Oh, the value that I'll add in, like in, you know, in an initial meeting, a first meeting. A lot of the time, especially, you know, I'm relatively new in my business, and, you know, I'm 30, turning 34 here in a few weeks. So like 33. Lots of my clientele or most of my clients are around my age, maybe a little bit older. And so these meetings are a lot of the time, it's the first meeting that they've had with somebody like me. And they're. And they're usually in some type of transitional phase in their life because that's just who I get referred to. It's usually the one like when I'm asking for a referral is like, married or got a new job. So they're in this transitional phase, and I'll help facilitate some conversations that maybe they haven't had with their spouse before. And they can be really impactful conversations. And, you know, finances is the number one cause for divorce. And, you know, I talk about, like, lots of vulnerable things in my meetings. So just, you know, bringing some of those things to the surface and facilitating those conversations, you know, adds value.

Sure. Oh, so just so your knowledge just right off the bat to have those conversations with them. That's great.

Yeah. It's almost like you have to be a therapist a little bit for. Just to get people talking and, and get things moving along. That's pretty Interesting.

Really is. And I've had, you know, and, you know, I hear that all the time with people in my office. And when I was talking to, you know, one of the recruiters at one of the other firms, they were saying that, you know, and I was like, oh, well, I'm actually really good at that. I've had some really difficult conversations with people in, you know, in really stressful situations and traumatic situations. And also, you know, one of my favorite things about working as an EMT was having genuine conversations with people that were in, like, hospice care and just having these really impactful conversations with people who are just really glad to be talking with somebody else other than a nurse or whatever. You know, that was one of the highlights of. Of that previous career, was having those conversations. So when I heard that, you know, you're kind of like, you're kind of like a therapist, you can have some really heavy conversations, I was like, oh, that's. I like that.

Okay, Bjorn, back to leading my next question. We were talking about adding value and that kind of thing. And one of the things with your business, because I always question finance people that I deal with and insurance folks, is that trust seems to be, you know, such a critical factor. You know, you need to be the trusted guy that go to the company you're working under. Their umbrella needs to be very trusted. You know, what ways have you found to build trust with new clients as well as your existing clients?

Well, it starts with the referral process is really where you get a big head start on that. That adds a ton of value and makes my job a lot easier. To build that rapport in a really, you know, quick and efficient way comes down to, you know, explaining your. I'm very upfront with how I make my money in, like, the first five minutes. I'm also very clear about my fiduciary responsibilities. And that's, you know, that's probably, that's really common, I'm sure, across the board in my industry.

Oh, that's great. I think that's really good to point that out and kind of get that on the table. I think. I think that's.

I like that idea of just telling people how you make money because most people don't have a problem. Problem with other people making money. Right? It's when they don't understand the process, they feel like, oh, it's a scam, it's a this, it's a that. No, let me just, let me tell you how I make my money. And, and this is how we'll Work together. And now you know that either there is no conflict of interest or if we, you know, if we step into that area, there's a potential conflict and so we'll avoid that together, you know, that kind of thing. That's really great. I like that.

Well, and I, and I think Bjorn, you know your comment. Well, I guess everybody does that. I don't, I don't know that they do. So that's why I recognize it.

No, yeah, I just put myself in, in their shoes, you know, like if I, if I got called up by some guy who worked with my buddy and invited me into his office, I'd be like, all right, man, what's, what's up here? So, so no, I'm very clear about that. And I also, I'm very upfront with, you know, like, you know, in these meetings we talk about some, you know, heavy stuff sometimes, like, hey, what would your life look like if you couldn't work because you got hurt? You know, what happens if you can't pay for your kids, college, things like that. So I get very emotional. I mean, I get some emotional responses and I get very personal. So. And I let the clients know that's, you know, some that we'll be going through and that I expect that if I'm going to be talking to them that, that, you know, the least I can do is just be a totally open book. So, you know, I always say, you know, if I'm ever talking to things, talking about things or services that just aren't relevant to you or important to you, just let me know if you have any questions about anything. You know, I asked you what your, what your life would look like if your wife died. You know, so you can ask me anything you want. And people, people respond to that, huh?

No, that's great. And do you have to, do you have to switch tactics? You know, you mentioned, okay, let's say you're sitting down with somebody who's in their early 30s that you know, maybe is just starting, you know, building this foundation of their life with kids or whatever, that they need different kinds of insurance, you know, wealth management, that maybe now or in the future versus, you know, sitting down and talking to, let's say a 50 year old that, you know, has spent the last 20 years doing that. I imagine your, the way you approach them needs to be a little different. Right?

Different. But it's, it's not too different because I'm still want to talk to what's important to them and what they have in place and usually that's the big difference is, you know, what, what are we starting with? But usually, usually people's goals are going to be pretty similar. So, you know, if we just speak to what is important to those, to that person in front of me, I mean, that's just the same as it is for a 25 year old.

Sure. So is there an ideal client that you go after? I mean, is it a certain demographic that you stick to or is it just depends on the referrals? And based on that, I make an.

Effort to work with freelancers and people that don't have a 401k provided to them. And us people are just comfortable communicating online and gotomeeting, whatever that is. I have a client that's in the Philippines or anything now. You know, I have clients all over the country. And so I like to get, I like to work with those types of people because they, you know, a lot, especially because there's a lot of people that are young and I kind of, I can relate to that are into, you know, into entrepreneurship, follow some of the same people that I follow and things like that. So we can usually build some rapport around those discussions. And it just is kind of turning out that they're just kind of all over the place.

That's.

And then in general.

No, no, no. I was going to say I think that's brilliant focusing on that market because those people do really need a guy like you. We talk about it all the time on the Small Business show, kind of building your quasi board of directors, your advisory board is what we always refer to it. And an insurance and financial planner person definitely needs to be on a freelancer, small business owner, entrepreneur. You need to have someone like that that can help you, you know, take a breath and plan and make sure things are, you know, progressing in that area in the right direction. So. Okay, let me ask you another question here. You know, one thing on the show, we're big fans of mistakes and that may be because I've made so many of them, but we've, we've learned so much from them. And so we always ask, you know, our guests to come on, you know, and you're a relatively new business owner, but it doesn't take, you know, long to kind of, you know, trip ourselves up sometimes. You know, is there, is there any best mistakes, if you will, that you've learned from in your, in your business so far?

Oh, gosh, there's a lot of, a lot of little mistakes that you make in your first. Oh gosh, the first Down a month was just full of silly, unprepared. You know, you've been drinking from a fire hose for six months and then you get, you know, then it becomes real, you know, then you start taking action, actually picking up the phone to call people. So I think one of the mistake, a funny mistake was just, you know, these terrible phone calls that I made because it'd be like, hey, this is Bjorn Burnett. You know, I worked with you on some flyers or something. Now I'm an advisor. What's your schedule look like next week? Like total train wrecks, right? Phone calls. And I didn't record the very first phone call. And I really wish I did because it was by far the worst one. Like my number one phone call from my. And it was just like that. It was a. It was a train wreck. But like, the lesson I learned from it was, you know, I saw this guy's my. He's my mechanic. So I see him a couple times a year, you know, and so I saw him, you know, probably like four or five months ago. You know, this has been a well over a year since I called on him. And I'm like, hey, you know, I'm sorry about that awkward phone call, man. He's like, what are you talking about?

Yeah.

You know, for me, I've been like, oh my God, that was the worst phone call in my life. And here he is like, oh, no. He hung up the phone and got on with his life, you know, isn't that the truth?

That's, man, there's such a. That's the. That to me, that's like the big lesson so far here is like, it's so easy to let that stuff. I mean, you carried that with you for a year and that's a short period of time, man. Trust, trust me, that's a short period of time. Because I've done that same kind of thing where it's like, you get to the point where you realize, wait a minute, I'm the only one that saw it that way. It really wasn't a problem. Stop obsessing over it, move on. You know. And the thing is, you already had moved on, right? You had learned from it, you had iterated, you got better at it, you knew that it wasn't your best moment. And that's fine. That's actually really good. But then it's just like, nobody else saw it that way, which is really interesting. Yeah.

That'S great.

So there you go. So, Bjorn, tell us, what's the next step for your business? I mean, what's your plan? What do you want to achieve in the next couple years, moving your business forward?

I'm kind of approaching it in just kind of like two fronts that I'm working on. And that's my local community. You know, I live in Bozeman, Montana and like one of the most beautiful places in the country and a really strong community. Like lots of new tech here and some great businesses. So I'm looking to just solidify my local client base while building up this, you know, smaller client base I have of these, you know, freelancers and, you know, and solopreneurs that I've been working with that are just kind of all over the place. So where, you know, if I'm, you know, talking about like a two or three year plan, you know, I'd like to see that local, you know, be solidified, but making more, focusing more on that, you know, the freelancer and solopreneur market that I'm really enjoying working with. That's great. Just grow that more.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. So. Okay, so once again, thanks for coming on the show and I mean, there's some really great tidbits of advice in this one. And what's the best way for our listeners, you know, the thousands of small business owners that follow us each week, what's the best way for them to connect with you or learn more about your business?

Definitely just Bjorn Burnett Financial Planning, Northwestern Mutual on Facebook and then Bjorn Burnettm and that's B j o r n dot b u r n e t t@n m dot com.

Cool.

Awesome. Yeah, we'll definitely put a link in there in the show notes for you as well. But it's great. We've really appreciated it. I've some great tip and thanks for hanging out with us today.

It was a good time.

Yeah, thanks Bjorn. Very, very good stuff. I always love kind of the things that, the things that you think you're gonna learn and then the things you actually learn. And that's what makes doing this show so fun. It's always different. Yup. All right folks, thanks so much for listening. Thanks Bjorn, for coming on the show. Thanks to Go Designer Go for being our sponsor this week. Keep living that charmed life, folks. We'll see you next time.