Business Banking with Paul Knowlton – Small Business Show 24

Greetings, folks, and welcome to the Small Business show. Episode number 24@businessshow.co here in Durham, New Hampshire, as usual, I'm Dave Hamilton.

And I'm Shannon Jean, coming to you from Concord, California.

How's Concord today, Shannon?

It's good. We just had a great lunch here with my banking buddy, Paul Knowlton. And we just came back from the brewery. Although we did not partake in any brews, we had some good food, so it was real nice.

And, and welcome to the show. Paul, how you doing?

Thanks. I'm doing really well. You didn't mention that we did have our earthquake last night, too.

Yeah, I heard about that on the way in, but I did not feel. Did you feel it?

It was one of. I felt like my cat. I woke up and then I felt it was strange.

So you don't have that fun stuff out in New Hampshire, Dave?

Not with the frequency or fear that. That I think exists out in California? Well, there is right there. I mean, fear is the right word. At some point, someday the big one's gonna come, right?

Yeah, I guess normally they're kind of fun. I mean, you know, you just kind of roll with it and, you know, but. But yeah, I guess someday the big ones.

We had one. I mean, you know, I remember just a couple of years ago, we had one, and it was, you know, everything kind of shook. And I've maybe experienced 10 of them in my lifetime out here in the, in the northeast. And I don't, I, I don't think I would have known it was an earthquake had I not been on the phone with my dad maybe 10 miles away. And we're. We were both talking to each other, and then I, I, like, heard something rumble upstairs like somebody had dropped something or whatever. And my dad's like, God, that was weird. I think something just dropped upstairs.

Wait.

Wait a minute. I think, I think this is bigger than either one of us believes.

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, we don't, we don't get the Snowmageddon like you guys had last year. But this is true. This is true. I saw, I saw the pictures. Yeah. Yeah, that's nuts. So, as I said, Paul is join. Joining us today, Paul is one of our business bankers. Great guy. Known him for a long time, has really helped us. And we thought our listeners would really enjoy hearing some feedback from the banking side of the equation and just talking a little bit. Paul, why don't we get started? Just a brief rundown kind of how you got started. Have you always been working with Small businesses, that kind of thing.

Yeah, no, I appreciate it. Yeah, primarily I came out of high school and got on a bank scholarship, so I was kind of didn't know what I wanted to do, but this provided an answer to that. So I've primarily been in, we'll call it small business banking, which varies between banks, but primarily companies 20 million and below in revenue, down to very small amounts. Kind of the community banking department of banks, if you will. So most of our clients are closely held, maybe one few owners. So we're very accustomed to working with those type of clients that really, you know, live their business and, you know, generate their livelihood from the success of the company and their ability to grow and such. So I think as we were talking at lunch too, I've always enjoyed this segment because I can form a relationship with my clients and people will make decisions based upon their confidence in me rather than an eighth of a point, for example. So it's not a pure price sell. And a good banker in this segment can really help a small business grow.

Yeah, and that's what we're going to talk about today. I think that, and one of the things we, you know, we went over at lunch was the, as a small business or somebody getting started, you know, you're always thinking, okay, the bank, I need the bank because I need some money. You know, I want to get, you know, and I think over the course of the next, you know, 30 minutes or so, we'll, we'll kind of add to that, you know, layer upon layer. So along that line of thought, so what roles other than, hey, I'm a guy that can get you some money, do you play with a business? What kind of things do you bring to the table?

Yeah, and the credit is often the first domino to kind of a relationship that we want to form with our clients. And besides just the extension of credit, it's really the lifeblood of business is working capital. So for our ability to provide products and solutions that can help a small business collect their money faster, keep it in their accounts longer, basically keep that working capital lifeblood within the company. There's a variety of ways to do that that include deposit products, payment products, things that you don't think of from, from the lender. But then outside of just the suite of business products, there's that we want to ideally be advisors or consultants to our clients. Particularly smaller businesses. When they grow, they're. Their credit needs will increase. The financial reporting is going to increase. The type of information that we're going to be looking at what worked before for a small business owner in terms of how he gauged business was going, what reports he looked at to determine how they were doing. A lot of times you need to start bringing in some more accounting assistance or a CFO and such. My job is to go out and network in the community. So you'll get a call from me and you'll say, well, I've got a banker already. And then, terrific. I just want to learn about your business because I'm out in the market. I know accountants, lawyers, financial planners, different people that I can help bring in as a resource too. So ideally, that kind of consultative situation is what you would be looking for, I would think, as a small business.

Yeah, and we've talked about that before, Dave, kind of building a, you know, a board of advisors, if you will. I mean, you know, you don't have a board of directors, you're a private company. But you need to surround yourself with people that are going to be able to give you good feedback. Yeah. Whether. Yeah. Whether they're providing services for you or not. You know, insurance person, banking person, that kind of stuff. And, and like you mentioned, Paul, oftentimes your banker connects those kinds of people, especially if you're getting started, can introduce you to a good accountant, all those kinds of things. You mentioned something to me at lunch that I thought was, was powerful too, is that your banker is really your advocate with the bank. You know, they're on the one side, they're trying to get your business and you know, they're selling you on the, hey, this is the bank you should come talk to and this is the things we can offer. But then behind the scenes, which I think maybe is not often thought of, is the bank is your proponent with the credit department, the merchant services department.

Yeah. And that's where I think, you know what, as you look at your relationship or your listeners look at the relationship they have with their bank, if it's simply a matter of I send in my statements quarterly or annually and I get my line renewed, it's like that's kind of the base level of a banking relationship. The ability to come in and advise and again help manage the growth and establish goals, you know, financial goals, targets, that type of thing. So. And I'm kind of curious too, as you know, I'm part of my job and all bankers job generally is you kind of eat what you bring in, I go meet businesses, either find the sand and the ointment, you know, why are you not happy with your bank or what's the opportunity for me. But when you guys get calls from bankers, whether it's a, I don't know, blanket email or a specific message. What, what's the, what's the message or what resonates with you that you would return the call or be willing to spend 10 minutes with somebody?

I, that's a good question. I, I, if someone is looking to simply sell me a product, unless, I mean, if it so happens that I am actually in the market for it, I might call him back, but otherwise probably not. But if I get this thing like, hey, my name's Paul, I work in such and such a capacity at this particular institution or whatever it is, and I would love to find out what your business is about. I work with other small businesses in the area. If it sounds like this person is trying to develop a relationship, that phone call I'll return. Because I know as a business owner, it's a good idea for me to have a relationship with at least one bank and probably with several, if I can, in different capacities. Because invariably, you know, things change and you gotta have something still going. When you, when there is something I need, it's much better if I call you and we already know each other versus I call you and I'm like, hey, I'm Dave and I'd love to develop a relationship, but before we do, I need this one thing, right?

Yeah. Usually involving money.

Yeah, I need a lot of money. And then we should really get to know each other because I think that'd be good for us. Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's sort of the same thing, right. I do the same thing and reach out, but, but I, you know, it's that relationship thing. If someone's looking to do that and not necessarily looking to sell me something right away, that's a really good thing.

Yeah. You know, and Shannon, as we talked to lunch too, it's that, it's exactly that. If the individual showing an interest in your business, you know, more, more than just asking what size of line of credit you have or what size building you're going to buy. But what do you do?

Right?

How do you, what widget do you make? How do you gauge how your progress is, what keeps you up at night, those kind of things, then you've got a banker who's interested and to your point, becomes your proponent. We were talking, you know, we sell at many levels at a bank. So I have to sell you to get the appointment. We get the package. I understand the business and the request. I now need to sell the credit department and again, be your proponent within the bank to access the right products and services. So again, from a, from a viewer's point of view, if the relationship with the bank is I go into the branch and I see the guy and. And he gives me documents to sign, and then I see him a year from now, there's really a lot more potential. And to your point, again, if this team of advisors, it's something we talk about more than we. It's not like we sit down around a table with your accountant and your lawyer stuff, but it should be a resource you feel you have and you can be very transparent with. I mean, if something starts to go sideways or again, wow, I have this opportunity. I'm not sure how to take advantage of it. If you have a proactive relationship with a banker, that's extremely valuable rather than a reactive one.

Yeah. And I think you brought this up. Lunch today is that, you know, in Paul's case with Tech Restore, you used our service and then reached out to me and, you know, had some backstory and a little background. You already knew what we did. And that is, you know, it's powerful. It's like, hey, I came in a great experience and da, da, da. So there was, there was a little bit of versus me, just, here's another bank guy. I'm going to, you know, delete this email.

Well, and to Dave's point too, I think you hear that and kind of the message. And I, in early in my career, I absolutely called on companies. I had absolutely no idea what they did and was bringing no value to the table and was just trying to get somebody looking for a product. And again, I think that's a. Probably a large percentage of the calls that, you know, the business owners receive. It's like there's a list, there's a name. But it's so relatively easy now through, you know, the Internet, at least spend some time on the website or go on LinkedIn and try to learn a bit about it. See if there's articles written about the company. And from a banker point of view, I mean, it's a lot funner to have an interest in what our clients are doing. Like Tech Restore.

Yeah. And I think, you know, yes, it's easier, but I think a lot of people really miss that because most of the calls I get for products and services from different entities, they all. I wouldn't say all, but the majority of them base things on price.

Yeah.

Hey, I can save you some money with your merchant services. Well, I'VE been down that vet road a few times. Yeah, it's miserable. You know, I can save you money here. Well, you know, maybe you can say, but the time of the business owner, really valuable, right? And you know, I think that's that relationship thing is critical when I think.

It'S, it's a valid question too, of if you do start a conversation with somebody, whether it's just them learning about your company or you're really considering a move, but ask them for references, you know, it's like, what other businesses have you had? Because if I'm at a cocktail party and hey, what do you do? You know, oh, I'm a banker. But no, I'm really, I'm a consultant. I help my small business clients grow. And sure, that involves lending money in many cases, but for the most part it's like understanding them, giving them advice, stuff that doesn't come back in a product delivery type system. But that's what you really want to look for in a bank. And if, if you don't have that. Not every banker is that way.

But yeah, And I would say some of the like, disappointments I've had with banks is, you know, you, you get guys that pass the beer test, so to speak, that you would go, oh, I'd have a beer with this guy or this person. And you know, that's, that's a big deal. You know, it says a lot. But you know, that person really is the relationship manager and there's a whole crew of people kind of behind them that you also have to interact with.

Right.

And that's an important thing. You know, who's the branch manager at the bank that you're going to be going to? You know, how does their online, how their online services work? And what happens when you have a problem? Can you get a person or are you calling, you know, halfway around the world, you know, trying to get support?

Right.

That's very difficult. So all those things I think are really important when you're looking for a bank. And Dave, to your point you mentioned earlier, getting that banking relationship early is really important and very beneficial because you don't want to go to the bank when you need them.

No, that's the worst time before that. That's right, correct. So I'm actually curious, Paul, to ask that question in the other direction. Right. If I'm, you know, Dave, business owner and I call you, how do you receive that call? Right. I mean, what are you looking for? How do you vet a business and know, I mean, I suppose when you're when you're looking at a line of credit kind of thing, there's not a whole lot of gut feeling that goes into this because it's a banking relationship and there's a, there's a math formula that happens, but there's got to be some level of gut feeling that goes into it, right?

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And it's. You think we had a five hour lunch all the time we're referencing this, but we talk too. I mean, even from returning the call is, you know, how is that call being received? You know, who answers the phone? How is it? Does it seem professional? Does it seem like they're interested in how they appear to the, to the world? But the other key thing though is, you know, we do start with basic financial information and the ability for the potential client to produce that is really, really kind of important. You know, if I asked for the last three years of taxes and the most recent interim and your accounts receivable aging and I hear crickets like, wow, I have no idea what. Dig those out of the box.

Is that English?

Yeah, that's right. It's like, you know, having being able to demonstrate some financial acum, at least with your financial information for your company and be able to, sure, I'll shoot that right to you or I'll put it in Dropbox. And you know, being able to have some foreknowledge of, you know, what it's going to take to go approach a bank and such. But a key thing too is, is management and you know, the feel we have of the company's ability to manage through ups, downs, opportunities, threats. And you get that mainly with time and business. So, you know, we talk about, you know, establishing something when you're starting and it's hard. I mean, banks typically have a two years in business kind of line in the sand. It's like you got to get past that before we start talking.

Yeah, but you, you know, you have that two years. Oh, go ahead.

I was going to say we may have been asking the same question, Shannon. How do you quantify that two years? I mean, let's say I started this business when I still had a full time job and then, you know, eventually I was able to transition and quit my job and quit my day job and now I'm running my business. But that took 18 months to get there. Right. And now I'm a year past that. So officially I'm two and a half years in, but really I'm, you know, maybe nine months in. If you look at, well, I'VE got an LLC that I formed the day I quit my job. And right. This, this other stuff. How much of, how do you define that two year kind of line in the sand?

Great question. I mean, really, technically it is that start date because I can always go and show here's a Secretary of State filing, here's the beginning. Yeah, but banks always look backwards when making forward decisions. So we're going to ask for two years of taxes and if we see you $10,000 of revenue year one and then $600,000 in year two, we're gonna have a general idea. Okay. You're probably a year into this. Banks often use two year averages when they look at things. Okay. And so technically two years in business, opening a checking account, you know, getting that stuff is important, very important. And then there are certain products you can access. Maybe you get a little small credit card under the business name, just go for a small balance1. Equipment financing often has products for less than two years in business. But getting some credit established in the business name as soon as you can is, is key. Banks tend to not want to be the leaders or the first ones in. So if they can show that you paid a $10,000 computer lease back over two years, you're going to be able to access 20 grand with the bank. Sure. You know.

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. And I think that kind of tying what we talked about last week, Dave, with delegating and then what you're saying, Paul, about being able to produce financials and be able to talk about the business if you're so strapped and that you can't lift your head up from the day to day operation to sit down with your banker who can be an advisor for you and generate reports and those kind of things. Well, that's another signal that the bank is not going to really like, I would imagine now.

Precisely. And that's, you know, I've, I have clients that, you know, start out very successfully and you know, revenue numbers are all relative. But say, for example, they're doing 2, $300,000 a year and it's, it's great. They're at 4 million now. And when I sit down and say, okay, what, what do you look at to gauge how you're doing? And I get a spreadsheet with handwritten notes on it and stuff, I'm going, all right, well it's time for you to get a CFO or get some more accounting help inside. Because this is an information that I can dispense to my credit department Build confidence in it. And one quick digression, too, is as a key thing to small businesses and credit is your personal credit. You're going to be guaranteeing things for a while. A lot of credit decisioning is based upon the personal credit of the owner. So that becomes a, that's an asset that isn't valued on a balance sheet or anything. But having your, a good, strong credit score is going to be very, very useful and valuable to you going down the road.

Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna ask about personal credit because, you know, typically you say, well, it'd be great if you paid off a, you know, a computer loan or whatever. Right. But that's, you're never gonna get that in the name of the business. You know, you, you'll, you'll, you'll get it perhaps on behalf of the business, but you're guaranteeing that loan, and it's your personal credit score. That, that, that's the only thing anyone looks at. There's, there is no business credit score, or at least not, not one that's, that's worth showing, you know, a year in or two years in or sometimes even five years in.

Absolutely. And the trick is, and as I say, equipment, finances, develop some products where it's in the name of the business. So then the business can write that down as a reference. But you're absolutely right. It's being based, it's the decisions based upon your credit.

And the same is true with a, with a per. With a business credit card. I mean, I think, actually I know that my business credit cards that I have now are all based on my personal credit score.

Absolutely. And that's. And it will continue to be that even, you know, the client I'm talking about, that's 4 million in revenue. If you're closely held, we'll just talk about personal guarantees now.

Yeah.

Generally, if you're private or privately held. Closely held. We want the bank and you to be on the same side of the table when it comes to duress. You know, if things are going bad, we want to be tied with you. Yeah, sure. And not, you know, you don't want.

Me kicking a business chapter 11. You want me kicking a personal chapter 11 if I'm gonna walk away.

Yeah. I mean, ultimately, yeah. We want you to, you know, be. Have some skin.

Yeah, of course it makes sense.

And that's, you know, something that ebbs and flows with credit cycles. But for the most part in my career, which was more decades, I don't want to talk about is 98% of the time we're getting personal guarantees of people, and that's. People should have that expectation. Yeah, yeah. And it's. And part of it is that we feel that it's one way to see how the business is doing. If, if, if you're operating an auto repair shop and you've got a 700 plus score, you own a home, you paid for cars, well, that's because the business is doing well. If you've got, if you got issues and your scores got delinquency, it's like, well, that business probably isn't producing what you need. So there, there is a link between, you know, the, the success of that business and the credit that the owner's going to have.

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you're, you're certainly linked, you know, when you're a small business and how things are.

Right.

How you're paying your bills at home and, you know, that kind of thing. I would imagine also how much personal debt you carry is, would impact, you know.

Well, that's what's interesting too, is like, at a corporate level, I can get financials on a company and I'll have footnotes, and I can see how it's doing. But like, your company, you know, you've got personal debt coming in, you've got other stuff, and it's like your business pays you, it compensates you. But then I got to go see what that has to pay for. So it's called a global cash flow.

I see.

And that's what's, that's why when I asked for your tax returns, I asked for your personal returns, too.

Right.

And your personal financial statement. Because you just, you can't just look at a small business by itself, really. Which again, is why I like this segment, because everybody's in the same pool together.

Yeah. And I can remember, you know, when we first met, it might have been. It was 2008, 2009. But, but it was right at the. It was a bad time. It was a bad time. But again, you and, you know, your, your team kind of had the, you knew that. So it wasn't like you were sitting down, going, well, we expect you to be really, you know, killing it right now. You know, we're just happy you're here. You're. You're paying your bills on time. You're, you know, your employees are getting paid, you're looking, you know, it's okay. We still want to have a relationship with you, you know, even if things aren't going as great. And I think you mentioned earlier, the size of that relationship can vary dramatically and grow over time directly. Right.

Yeah. And that again, a lot of times that's a transition, not a flip the switch and double your line of credit. And that's why again, having frequent contact with your banker and kind of I would want to, you know, sometimes I get people that gripe about, hey, I need your statements quarterly and say, oh God. But right when I get them, I look at them and you know, I'll come back and say, it looks like your inventory is kind of slowing down, what's going on? And it's, it's not a derogatory thing. It's just, I want to understand and maybe there's things, again, I can help. So again, that goes back to, you've got a line of credit, you've got checking accounts, you're paying for this, you might as well access it and, you know, use your banker for that kind of help too. And that's, you know, it's also important to have that expectations, realistic expectations established. As you talk about growing debt and stuff is there's things that we look at, you know, Dave, you pointed out, there's, there's formulas to what we do.

Sure.

And we can look at doing things in between tax years and stuff. If you've got a great opportunity and you buy some inventory, that type of thing, and that's where you want to be able to pick up the phone. And again, if it's not your banker, then someone else that knows your business and it's a great time to be a borrower. Banks have a lot of money to lend. They've rates are low. We're beating each other up out there. So it's still a good time to like say. I think I would kind of discern. I'm back to that phone call again from a banker. But just kind of discern whether you think this is somebody that's really interested in your company or do they have a widget to sell.

Yeah.

And that's the key differentiator. Right.

You know, you talk about communicating and expectations and I can just remember being so frustrated when I was a much younger business person where I would you have these great opportunities to buy these. You know, I'm in the, I'm in the buy sell business and sometimes you need a lot of capital to buy and to buy deep and you would get this opportunity that, you know, on a spreadsheet you just looked, look, this is unbelievable. And I, and I can remember showing it to the bank and I'm. No, we're just, we're just not interested. And I was like, you guys are so stupid, you know, because it just seemed like for me there was no risk.

I didn't take it personally.

Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

Yeah. This was like 20 years ago, you know, and, and I think that it gets back to having that longer relationship to where you, you kind of ease yourself into this thing.

Right. And that's more comfortable if you're your banker and you're educating yourself as you go along. I mean, there's multiple sources of funds and there's debt and there's equity. And in some cases, it's the place of equity to take that risk. You know, other places that's a good thing. But you know, a banker, we get, we get our four and a half percent return. We got no upside, so.

That's right.

A really high risk opportunity and inventory play that we don't understand that you've done successfully most of the time. It's like, that's more of an equity play. You know, there's, there's double digit returns available there and that's, that's because it's riskier.

Yeah. And you guys don't want to own that inventory. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So, you know, we're, we're big fans of, of stories on this show. And, you know, it's powerful. Dave and I talk all the time about it. You know, give us your favorite, one of your favorite stories or whether it's a great success or. I know I asked you about a horror story, but I don't want to put you on the spot. So it could be either one, you know, something that shows the power of the relationship. Relationship or, or something that was just an utter nightmare.

And you can change the names, of course, to protect the innocent.

Don't use Dave or my name.

That's what I meant.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, the, yeah, success stories are funner, but it is when you see your client, you know, success stories are not more fun.

Well, when you're listening, I'll let you go.

Sorry, I'll get back to the horror story. But yet there was a software company, and again, it was a matter of meeting and knowing and understand what they were doing and be able to grow up with them as they went along. And I also knew they shared with me, and this is something a lot of clients don't do, is, you know, the whole life cycle plan. Here's what I need right now. Here's what I'm focused on. But he had identified A potential client that was going to be interested in him. So in acquiring the business.

I see. Yeah.

You know, so he had a seven year plan for this and we were together five of them because he sold in the fifth. But knowing that and being able to help him and also being able to communicate that to our credit departments and stuff, it was like, we're not, we're not going to lose if he doesn't sell. It's a successful business anyway. But our ability to help him get to that point, I thought it was very satisfying.

Yeah.

And to see him enjoy his liquidity was. Was great. Yeah. The horror stories are that I don't have a pen, I don't get to approve all the deals I want to do. And it's always generally relates to really again I'm on this same side of the table as my client and really believing in this inventory purchase, for example or something. I'm not using your name, but it's being unable to deliver what I personally am comfortable with. But it's not bank of Paul, it's bank of whoever I'm working for. Sure. And so delivering bad news is always a drag. And a lot of times it's been again, poor expectations going in where a client feels like this is a no brainer deal for you guys, this should be easy to do. And I go, I do agree with you. Let's go. And having a shot down is always a drag. And it's everybody we call, it's, you know, we're hoping that bank just did that to them and we should pick them up.

Yeah, that's true.

You know, it's hard to move banking relationships, you guys know, it is hard pulling weeds and getting all the roots and it either has to be a really good opportunity that we're just so much better than somebody else that somebody will move or their current bank has stubbed their toe and has created an opportunity.

Makes sense.

But you know, delivering bad news is always the horror.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

That's good. Great stuff. I love the, you know, the whole message I think is that that long term relationship that, you know, get to somebody that in like my comment, you know, passes a beer test that you really enjoy being around. Because if you don't enjoy interacting with them, I think you're far less likely to be motivated to build that longer term relationship with them, to want to check in with them and all that kind of stuff. If you have some stuffy, I don't want to use a cliche here, but you know, a stuffy banker Guy that's your typical, you know, we make the rules. You follow this kind of thing, it.

Goes back to again. I think it's a good time to be a borrower. There's plenty of bankers and, and I think it's also important to, you know, meet my manager too because, you know, real life happens. I get promoted, I get an offer, I move around. But you want to have institutional knowledge in your business too. So if Paul's not there, then somebody stepping right in or the. My manager knows and values the relationship so makes sense. But ultimately I've found in most of my career businesses are banking with me and I work at a bank so they kind of, it goes together. But I also know that that's part of what I need to deliver is that team. I like to describe it as a, you know, knowledge a mile wide and an inch deep in some cases where, oh, you're doing a foreign exchange transaction or you have an opportunity abroad. I don't do that every day, but I know I have an FX department that's good.

Yeah.

And I can bring in that resource. But you don't want to have to just dial the 800 number and try to hit the foreign exchange. That's a nightmare start that. So correct. That personal relationship is key, but then also being able to broaden it to, to the broader team at a bank and that, that's, that's one of the keys to success, I think and being able to grow the business and another success story. I know Dave, you want another horror. But I do have clients.

It's all good, I guess, sort of.

Lots, lots of banks to segment the market by size of the companies and typically it's measured by revenue. So our bank for example is 25 million and below as revenue is business banking and 25 above. I've had clients successfully transition into commercial banking, which is a good sign. That means they were 10, now they're 30 million in revenue. And it is kind of a different set of products and services that that company, from 25 to 200 million needs to access. And I don't purport to know, you know, have those resources. So it's, it's important. I think community banks are great.

Yeah.

More so we see more global business among our smaller businesses. So having some foreign exchange and some import export bank capabilities is good, but I think in general it's still. It's the banker. Yeah, I agree. The banker's making the bank system work for you. Makes sense because my clients don't know half of the stuff I'm going through behind the scenes.

Oh yeah.

When I hear them and say, here, I just need this thing signed. Yeah, we've all done battle to get it down one document.

Yeah, that makes sense. That's great. Well, you know, we, we really appreciate you having her. I think it's a great perspective to, you know, for our listeners to see, to hear about, you know, if you could give one piece of advice for, you know, a small business owner that's, you know, slogging through every day dealing with the ups and downs, you know, from a banking perspective, what would you leave them with today that they would remember?

I'll try to make it one, but, but it goes back to, you know, transparency and having that kind of transparent relationship with your banker and you know, you don't have to have go beers but yeah, it's fun. But being able to, you know, trust and have confidence in your banker that you can talk to them about all the challenges you're going through, you know. And then outside of banking though too we talked about is like what's, what's the businesses look and feel, you know, and who, what's happening when somebody calls your business? Because I've heard on your previous podcast, you know, it's, we're all customer service businesses and hey, somebody listens. I do. It's pretty good. I think that was episode 14 I preach. Yes, but it's, you know, just being aware when you're communicating and that's with your customers, with your banker. And then finally again back to the bank is just at least up here you have a handle on your financials. Or if you don't at least throw your hands up and say here's what I got and then let the banker offer some advice. You know, there's part time CFOs that can come in and work with you for a little while and get systems set up and leave so you don't have to spend 100 grand a year to have a CFO. You can spend 30 grand and have them get things set up which will really come back to you in a good way as you, as you grow.

Makes sense. That's great. Well, it's all really good stuff. Paul, thanks for giving us your time today. We really appreciate it and I hope everybody really enjoyed it. If you have any questions for Paul, Dave, we have new email address.

Right.

Feedbackusinessshow co that's those rules right off the tongue. That's great.

It does, I know, yeah, I love, you know, we'll pass on any questions or comments that you might have. And thanks for hanging out. It's been very enlightening.

Absolutely. I appreciate it very much.

Thanks, Paul.

Awesome.

Take it easy, folks.

We will see you next week.

Take care, everyone.